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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I knew better up here in my head, but

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Speaker 2: I was one of the few that thought there was

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Speaker 2: a chance, a slim chance, a tiny chance, a sliver

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Speaker 2: of a chance, that missing Connecticut mom of five Jennifer

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Speaker 2: Dulos could still be alive. And then her conniving husband,

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Speaker 2: Photus Dulos and his mistress Michelle Chraconis had to just

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Speaker 2: blow it all up from me. When I found out

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Speaker 2: the things that they were caught on camera disposing of

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Speaker 2: in various locations all over town were bloody clothing, rags, items.

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Speaker 2: Then I knew. I still did want to know, but

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Speaker 2: I knew that this mom is dead. Have you found

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Speaker 2: your body? H L n O. But nobody no case,

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Speaker 2: that is absolutely not true. The mistress treconis heading to

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Speaker 2: trial right now. I mean, I see Greece. This is

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime

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Speaker 2: Stories and on Serious XM one eleven, just to jog

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Speaker 2: your memory. Not that you legal eagles. You know, Mark

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Speaker 2: Sherman joining me, high profile lawyer and don't get mad Mark,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to introduce you as the son of

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Speaker 2: Mickey Sherman, another great trial lawyer and friend this is

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Speaker 2: your jurisdiction in court. We try to put it nicely,

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Speaker 2: say your honor, may I refreshed the witnesses recollection. That's

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Speaker 2: a legal term of art, right, Mark Sherman.

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Speaker 3: Correct, correct, Well, look, I'm here in the courthouse. It's

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Speaker 3: a new here, Nancy. There's fifty cameras and the evidence

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Speaker 3: is getting started today. They expected to go about seven weeks.

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Speaker 3: You know, everyone's really anxious to.

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Speaker 4: Hear how the state's going to start off.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait, but I can tell how we're going

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Speaker 2: to start off by refreshing everyone's recollection. Take a listen.

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Speaker 5: Location of your emergency. Yeah, I'm worried about my wife

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Speaker 5: and kids because they they left to go to New

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Speaker 5: York and I haven't been able to get intest with Okay,

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Speaker 5: they were going to New York.

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Speaker 6: What's the license late on the car?

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Speaker 5: Excuse me?

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Speaker 4: What's the license plate on the car?

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Speaker 5: Uh? I you?

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Speaker 6: Okay, Well, what's who's the car registered to?

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Speaker 5: It's registering to my wife's name, Jennifer Dulos. The last

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Speaker 5: thing for me, Dulos d u l o els. But

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Speaker 5: long walls not answering. They're not answering their cellphold I've

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Speaker 5: been texting and I see that the takes I've been

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Speaker 5: delivered responding to me.

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Speaker 7: Okay, so you have like the fine your iPhone app

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Speaker 7: or anything like that.

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Speaker 8: Thanks?

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Speaker 2: Okay, what's your name?

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Speaker 8: Thanks?

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Speaker 5: Photyshon pis doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Know about find my iPhone? Now? Okay, maybe someone like

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Speaker 2: my mom who lives with us. She has an iPhone.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't know about finding an iPhone, but she's ninety two.

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Speaker 2: How can you not know about find my iPhone? You

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Speaker 2: know many cases have been solved with find my iPhone? Now,

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Speaker 2: what happened that day? It was the Friday before Memorial Day.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to this.

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Speaker 9: The Friday before Memorial Day, Jennifer Dulos dropped her children

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Speaker 9: off at school near her Canon, Connecticut home. She had

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Speaker 9: an eleven am appointment which she missed. No one hears

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Speaker 9: from her for ten hours. That night, Jennifer Dulo's is

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Speaker 9: reported missing by her family and friends, and the search begins.

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Speaker 2: With me and All Star panel. You've already met high

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Speaker 2: profile lawyer Mark Sherman joining us from the courthouse. But

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Speaker 2: first of I now want to go to Jen Smith,

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Speaker 2: the chief investigative reporter for dailymail dot Com, who has

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Speaker 2: also been covering the case from the get go. It's

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Speaker 2: nw Canaan, Connecticut, and I've driven through New Canaan, Connecticut

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Speaker 2: several many times, and it's about an hour ten hour

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Speaker 2: fifteen maybe ish from Manhattan. Long story short, I drove

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Speaker 2: through because it was too expensive for me to even

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Speaker 2: breathe the air. There a lot of rich people. You

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Speaker 2: ever seen New Canaan. I mean every house looks like

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Speaker 2: a mansion. And that is where jen Smith, Jennifer and

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Speaker 2: Potus Dulos lived with their five children.

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Speaker 6: Correct, Yeah, pretty much Nancia. As you see, this is

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Speaker 6: where the wealthy families of Manhattan go when they want

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Speaker 6: to get a bit of fresh air, very expensive fresh air.

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Speaker 6: And I send their kids to these prestigious schools up

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Speaker 6: in the Connecticut suburbs. So Jennifer and photiuse Doulos really

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Speaker 6: fit the description of an incredibly privileged family. She herself

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Speaker 6: comes from money. Her own father was a kind of

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Speaker 6: financial wizard, very well known in Wall Street and Foties

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Speaker 6: Dolos was a property developer at the time, he got

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Speaker 6: some help from his wife's generous and wealthy family.

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Speaker 2: Wait right, right, right, you know that's certainly putting perfume

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Speaker 2: on the pig jenn Smith. I don't know if they

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Speaker 2: have that phrase over in the UK, but she perfume

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Speaker 2: on the pig. Jennifer Dulos father worked his rearan off

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Speaker 2: and was brilliant financially. He worked, he made the money,

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Speaker 2: not photos do listener, you said something about property development.

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Speaker 2: He ran a construction company. My uncle built houses out

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Speaker 2: in the mud and the dirt and rain, building houses.

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Speaker 2: But you said he got help. That's where the perfume

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Speaker 2: on the pig comes in. He got what over a

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Speaker 2: million dollars He got Jennifer's father to fork over money

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Speaker 2: to keep his construction business afloat. Isn't that truth?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is true.

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Speaker 6: Help is probably an understatement. Jennifer's father really helped them.

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Speaker 6: I think will her right. He was looking after his daughter,

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Speaker 6: I suppose, but he really bankrolled this construction company. Photis

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Speaker 6: described as pulperty development. Obviously trying to put covering on

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Speaker 6: his own take there. And yeah, Jennifer's father really helped

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Speaker 6: him stay afload for years while he was building property

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Speaker 6: completely various projects up in that ukn and the unsurrending areas.

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Speaker 2: In joining me is behavior expert former FBI Special Agent,

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Speaker 2: chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and

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Speaker 2: author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual

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Speaker 2: for Brek behavior prediction. So, Robin, have you ever heard

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Speaker 2: of routine evidence?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, because it really comes into someone's life bark and

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Speaker 10: their baseline of their normal behavior that they're exhibit every day,

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Speaker 10: no doubt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this to Mark Sherman, joining us, managing

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Speaker 2: partner of the Mark Sherman Law Firm. Mark. For instance,

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Speaker 2: if Jackie Howard was not in this studio an hour

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Speaker 2: before I come in here viciously complaining about something but

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Speaker 2: getting everything ready, that would be completely opposite of her routine.

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Speaker 2: She's always here and it's always ready. So if I

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Speaker 2: came down here and plopped into the chair and there

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Speaker 2: was no Jackie right there with me, I would know

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Speaker 2: she was either dead or in the hospital. Okay, that

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Speaker 2: is routine evidence. She has a routine. And Jennifer Dulos

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Speaker 2: had a routine. She's the mother of five. She does

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Speaker 2: pick up and drop off every day, and so for

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Speaker 2: her to go missing for ten hours and not pick

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Speaker 2: up the phone, that's the problem. Mark Sherman.

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Speaker 3: Sure, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the defendant killed her,

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Speaker 3: but honestly, but I agree with you, it gets in

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Speaker 3: as long as the state can get first, firsthand evidence

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Speaker 3: of that routine, it can't just be speculation. It's got

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Speaker 3: to be someone with the rest knowledge, firsthand knowledge of

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Speaker 3: that routine.

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Speaker 2: You know what you just did, Mark Sherman, and I'm

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Speaker 2: so happy you did it. Joining me is doctor Jeff Klshewsky,

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Speaker 2: forensic psychologist, author of Dark Side. Doctor Gilshoefski, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us. Did you hear what Sherman just did?

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Speaker 2: And that's what the jury's going to do? He said, well,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, just because she's been gone ten hours,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean the husband did it. See that's the

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Speaker 2: first thing that went to his mind. Doctor Jeff, Well,

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Speaker 2: I thank you.

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Speaker 8: This really speaks to the idea when you talk about

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Speaker 8: routine evidence and understanding that this routine has been disrupted,

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Speaker 8: and who would have knowledge of this person's routine and

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Speaker 8: it could be her ex housband knowing what time the

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Speaker 8: children will be dropped off at school, what times she

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Speaker 8: typically will go back. And oftentimes when someone's planning out

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Speaker 8: of crime, they're obviously going to try to learn the

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Speaker 8: person's routine, to know when they can sort of deploy

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Speaker 8: to commit that crime.

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Speaker 2: You're so right now. I love the way that Mark Sherman's.

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Speaker 2: My mind immediately went with that doesn't mean the husband

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Speaker 2: did it. Me thinks that death protests too much. Mark Sherman, Hey,

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Speaker 2: Mark is joining us at the courthouse. Mark, you said

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Speaker 2: there's fifty cameras. What does everybody want to get a

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Speaker 2: look at Photosdulos Mistress Michelle Treconis.

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Speaker 3: You know, Nancy, it's a town of twenty thousand people,

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Speaker 3: it's a tony town. It's a compelling story that there's

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Speaker 3: so many moving pieces here that just make this case compelling,

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Speaker 3: and it's really grabbing the attention of a lot of

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Speaker 3: people around the country.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess so because everybody wants justice. Why are

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Speaker 2: we so concerned because massive amounts of blood turn up?

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Speaker 2: And Jennifer Duloss Garage time.

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Jenna Smith's joining me, chief investigative reporter dealilymail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Jen who exactly I just heard photus Delos blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: Is he the first one that called nine one one

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Speaker 2: about her disappearance?

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Speaker 6: No, he's not actually so on the day of Jennifer

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Speaker 6: look as appearance. By this time, Jennifer and Sochi's were

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Speaker 6: not living together. They were in the midst of a

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Speaker 6: really acrimonious divorce and custody battle. The first people who

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Speaker 6: alerted the authorities to the fact that she had vanished

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Speaker 6: were her friends. They were concerned about the fact that

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Speaker 6: on this date she had missed several appointments that she

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Speaker 6: was due to a tent after dropping off the kids.

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Speaker 2: What were the appointments, Jim Smith.

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Speaker 6: You know, I'm not sure if they were anything super

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Speaker 6: out of the ordinary. We're talking about routine things. She

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Speaker 6: wasn't really working at the time, and so it was

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Speaker 6: things along the lines of like Gener's appointment.

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Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, hold on, little girl, jenn Smith, do

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Speaker 2: you have children?

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Speaker 4: I do not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, hopefully one day you'll have that joy that

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Speaker 2: I have now. Of course, before I had children, I

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Speaker 2: hate it when people said that. But now that I

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Speaker 2: have children, I found out I was never happy. I

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Speaker 2: just thought I was happy. My point, I'm leading up

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Speaker 2: to jen Smith, two children, I might exulted. By the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, I fall asleep sitting in a chair,

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Speaker 2: straight up I'm like, whoa, what happened? This woman is

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Speaker 2: working trust me in the home. But you're right, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't like showing up at the office. For all I

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Speaker 2: note was me, Yeah, it could have been a PTA meeting,

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Speaker 2: It could have been a cookie se I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it was. But they were onto it.

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Speaker 6: She was not. She wasn't due to attend business meeting.

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Speaker 6: But of course a mother of five is a very

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Speaker 6: busy woman, working a lot harder than you know many

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Speaker 6: people who are in an office all day. Of course,

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Speaker 6: that's not what I meant by any stretch of the imagination.

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Speaker 6: But these were you know, what's relevant here is that

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Speaker 6: these are a piecemeal little thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh hey, I know what they are. I've got it

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Speaker 2: in my notes right here. Jen. And also you know

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Speaker 2: she was a writer. She did write for Patch dot com. Uh.

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Speaker 2: And she was seen returning home at eight oh five

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Speaker 2: am on a neighbor security camera. But it was two

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Speaker 2: doctor's appointments in New York City, that's what she missed.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was doctor's appointments. And in my notes,

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Speaker 2: I've got that the nanny, Lauren Almeda and another friend,

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Speaker 2: they were the ones to first report her missing. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so that's the answer to that. All right, let's get

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Speaker 2: to the blood. Take a listen to crime Onlines Dave Max.

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Speaker 7: When investigators arrived at Jennifer Dulo's home, bloodstains are visible

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Speaker 7: not only on the garage floor, but garbage cans and

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Speaker 7: a car parked in the garage. The car in the

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Speaker 7: garage was not the Chevy Suburban the mom was known

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Speaker 7: to drive. Police initiate a search for her vehicle. A

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Speaker 7: little over an hour later, in just three miles from

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Speaker 7: the home, officers find the abandoned suburban by Waveny Park.

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Speaker 7: It contains blood evidence too. Back at the home, investigators

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Speaker 7: determined someone had tried to clean the concrete floor.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I love nothing better than talking about blood evidence

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Speaker 2: and joining me in a dish into A renowned medical examiner,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns is Jeff Gentry. Jeff is a forensic

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Speaker 2: certified Bloodstained Pattern Analyst and an ab MDI what is

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Speaker 2: that American Board of Medico Legal Death Investigators. He's author

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Speaker 2: of A Visual Guide to Bloodstained Pattern Analysis. What could

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Speaker 2: be better than that book? A Visual Guide to Bloodstained

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Speaker 2: Pattern Analysis. Bloodstained Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene investigators.

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Speaker 2: And that's not all. He couldn't stop himself. He's also

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Speaker 2: the author of death investigation information to obtain during a

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Speaker 2: forensic death investigation. I know what I'm doing tonight, Jeff Gentry,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Then I'm going to

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Speaker 2: follow up and see how what doctor Kendall Crown's what

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Speaker 2: his analysis is as an overlay if he agrees or

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Speaker 2: disagrees with you, Jeff Gentry. So we're having a little

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Speaker 2: pop quiz, Jeff Gentry, So he is going to be

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Speaker 2: your teacher. He's going to grave your answer. They say

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Speaker 2: that that someone had tried to clean up the cement floor,

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Speaker 2: how could they tell that?

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Speaker 11: So first what I read was that there was blood spatter.

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Speaker 11: Blood spatter is indicative of trauma or force being applied

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Speaker 11: to blood. So right away that tells you that something

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Speaker 11: really bad happened there, that there was some kind of

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Speaker 11: a violent act. There was also blood transfers, meaning that

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Speaker 11: these bloodstains were transferred to different locations throughout the garage.

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Speaker 11: So that's also indicative of a struggle or somebody was

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Speaker 11: fighting back after they were bleeding. Then on top of

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Speaker 11: all of that, you've got multiple areas of cleanup. So

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Speaker 11: the way that they can tell that blood has been

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Speaker 11: cleaned up is it appears diluted or altered. We all

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Speaker 11: know what normal blood looks like. It's red, it's kind

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Speaker 11: of brownish. But then when you apply either chemicals or

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Speaker 11: water to it, it's going to change the appearance. So

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Speaker 11: that's how you can tell that blood has been cleaned

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Speaker 11: up or altered. So it's actually quite easy if you

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Speaker 11: have experience in seeing blood stains on a regular basis

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Speaker 11: and doing the analysis. But it can really tell you

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Speaker 11: a lot. It can tell you the events that transpired

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Speaker 11: during a violent act or a bloody crime scene, and

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Speaker 11: I use it all the time in my scenes.

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Speaker 2: Jeff Gentry, another thing that I like about you, and

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Speaker 2: you remind me a great deal of doctor Crown's. You're

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Speaker 2: so humble and modest. No, it's not quote really easy.

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Speaker 2: Most people would walk in and see absolutely nothing. You, however,

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Speaker 2: and expert crime scene investigators would spot spatter. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: a mist. Sometimes there's a mist of blood batter is

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Speaker 2: down by the floorboards and they're just tiny specks. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: you have to bring in luminol and look at every

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Speaker 2: inch of the wall and floor. I wonder if they

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Speaker 2: looked at the sides of the car that was still parked.

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Speaker 2: There was that car park there when Jennifer Dulo's was murdered.

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Speaker 2: Was the lover Michelle jare kind of standing by watching,

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Speaker 2: but listen to this and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: Jen Smith Dailymail. Large stains and I'm reading from my notes,

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Speaker 2: so I want to make sure this is right. Large

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Speaker 2: stains of Jennifer's blood were discovered in her garage, on

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Speaker 2: trash cans, and in her master bedroom garage master bedroom

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Speaker 2: of her home, the concrete floor, two cat trash cans,

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Speaker 2: and the passenger door of a range rover. She impressions,

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Speaker 2: according to cops, indicate someone had attempted to clean up

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Speaker 2: the blood, and I'm taking that to mean that there

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Speaker 2: were bloody footprints, much as we saw in the oj

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Speaker 2: Simpson double murder debacle. Is that correct, jenn Smith?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the most significant area was

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Speaker 6: the area in the garage. There was so much blood

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Speaker 6: or traces of blood there that it led police across

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Speaker 6: the futures to believe that she was injured to the

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Speaker 6: extent that there was no way she could have survived.

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Speaker 6: There was that much blood there that's what they find.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly where I was headed. You read my mind,

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Speaker 2: Jenn Smith again, doctor Kendall Crowns. I mentioned earlier Chief

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Speaker 2: Medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort worth. Never a lack

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Speaker 2: of business. Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin and Texas Christian

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Speaker 2: University Medical School, Doctor Kendall Crowns, What does that really

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Speaker 2: mean that there was such a huge quantity of blood

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Speaker 2: in her garage? They knew she's dead. She could not

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Speaker 2: survive this.

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Speaker 4: So anytime you see a lot of blood in a

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Speaker 4: crime scene, in no body, you know that the loss

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Speaker 4: of blood can result in depth. So once you see

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Speaker 4: enough to equal about thirty to forty percent of whatever

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Speaker 4: circulating blood you would have in your body, would would

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Speaker 4: be about close to a gallon. You know someone's died.

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Speaker 2: Are you saying you would find a gallon of blood

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Speaker 2: on the garage war or there is a gallon of blood?

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Speaker 2: Think of a milk jug gallon. That's how much blood

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Speaker 2: is in our body A gallon?

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Speaker 4: No, No, that's about forty percent of the year circulating blood,

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Speaker 4: So about roughly two and a half gallons of blood.

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Speaker 2: Well, where is the rest of the blood? I thought

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Speaker 2: it was all circulating.

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Speaker 4: Well, if someone stammed that are beaten, it'll come out

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Speaker 4: of their body and be all over the crime scene.

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Speaker 4: So if you see forty what you estimated about forty

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Speaker 4: percent of their circulating blood outside of their body, you

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Speaker 4: know they're dead.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying it would take what a gallon of

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Speaker 2: blood close to a gallon garage floor for them to

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Speaker 2: know she's dead?

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Speaker 12: Correct?

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Speaker 4: And Plasan's in multiple locations?

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Speaker 2: He who's this?

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Speaker 4: This is Mark?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to come to you. We're

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Speaker 2: going to hear about it in court. But go ahead,

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Speaker 2: what were you saying?

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Speaker 3: I was going to say, I understand all these points

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Speaker 3: and they're valid, but what does this have to do

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Speaker 3: with Michelle Traconas? Are we trying photos Dulos today and

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Speaker 3: in this trial? Are we trying Michelle Traconis? And I

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Speaker 3: don't know if the defence is going to want the

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Speaker 3: jury to think photos did this, but Michelle had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with.

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Speaker 4: It and didn't know anything.

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Speaker 2: He don't even gotten the tim Michelle Traconas she was

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Speaker 2: in the car and admits of being in the car

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Speaker 2: while photos of dolost Is throwing out clothing. I think

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Speaker 2: what was it Jackie Sure jenn Smith, wasn't he caught

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Speaker 2: on video going all around town throwing away what a

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Speaker 2: bra shirt? Bloody rags and that blood matches back to

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Speaker 2: his wife, wife Jennifer Dellis Dulos, the mother of his

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Speaker 2: five children. And miss thing is sitting right there in

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Speaker 2: the car while he's going from trash can to trash can.

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Speaker 6: Yes, no, yes, she was in the car when she

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Speaker 6: says they were on their way to get kind of

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Speaker 6: late afternoon evening coffee in town.

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Speaker 2: What late afternoon coffee?

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Speaker 6: Yes, no, that's not a bit questionable.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 2: Thirty trash cans? Jin was that on the way?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Thirty trash cans?

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Speaker 6: That's what he says. He dropped off, drop off the

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Speaker 6: trash and she claims or insists actually multiple times, that

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Speaker 6: she has no idea what was what was in the bag?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Her, that's what we're talking about, sherman, the one

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Speaker 2: that was having sex with the married man with five children. Her, her,

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Speaker 2: the one that doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Make her a killer, Nancy, that doesn't make her a killer.

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Speaker 5: And I obviously that that's obvious, But.

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Speaker 2: I don't care who has sex with anybody. Cats and

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Speaker 2: dogs sleeping together. Don't care, couldn't care less. But I

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Speaker 2: do care about is who killed her and who was

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Speaker 2: part of it?

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Speaker 3: But if I expect everyone downstairs in this courthouse that

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Speaker 3: thinks she had something to do with it, But is

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Speaker 3: there enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt? Is

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Speaker 3: there enough of this circumstantial evidence to convict her? I

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Speaker 3: think that's going to be the issue in this trial.

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Speaker 3: I don't think anyone's walking out of there thinking she

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Speaker 3: was an innocent bystander here, But is there enough circumstantial

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Speaker 3: evidence to convict her?

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Speaker 2: Was I snoring? Oh? Okay, I'm sorry I fell asleep

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Speaker 2: during that, right, Okay? Now back to the blood, doctor

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Speaker 2: Kendle Crowns. I'm just imagining if I can refocus, get

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Speaker 2: us out of the weeds where Mark Sherman just led

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Speaker 2: us with just his job. He learned it from his dad,

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Speaker 2: Mickey Sherman. That's why he won all those cases. Let's

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Speaker 2: get back on the blood and then I'll deal with

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Speaker 2: miss thing Michelle Traconis, who's supposed to go on trial.

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Speaker 2: A gallon of blood. If I see a gallon of

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Speaker 2: blood on a cement floor or the garage, I know

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Speaker 2: somebody's dead. Is that right, doctor Crown's.

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Speaker 4: It's correct. It's a little less than a gallon, but

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Speaker 4: a gallon you're dead.

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Speaker 2: Wow. So that tells me that it wasn't an asphyxiation,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a strangulation. It was either blood trauma or

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Speaker 2: stabbing or shooting. That's the only way. Can you think

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Speaker 2: of anything else, doctor.

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Speaker 4: Crowns, No, those would be the main ones. I can't

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Speaker 4: think of one trauma, stabbing, shooting. Yeah, that there wouldn't

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Speaker 4: be anything else. It would create that much blood.

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Speaker 2: I'm so tempted to use a curse word. Robin Drake,

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Speaker 2: behavior expert, former FBI special agent. Listen to this chief

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Speaker 2: of the FBI count or Intelligence Behavior Analysis Program. Wow,

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Speaker 2: Robin Drake. I'm just thinking. The word I wanted to

404
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Speaker 2: say was dumb ass, but I gave up cursing when

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Speaker 2: I had the twins, So I can't say dumb ass.

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Speaker 2: Because we saw in oj Simpson, Well, you could say

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Speaker 2: from the crime scene photos you don't have to be

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Speaker 2: on the scene to see bloody footprints, and here there

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Speaker 2: are traces of bloody footprints where so much bloody was

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Speaker 2: actually walking through it.

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Speaker 11: So one thing you have to look at too with

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Speaker 11: the blood is not only the volume of blood.

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Speaker 4: But what type of blood stains.

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Speaker 11: So, like I mentioned before, blood spatter is indicative of trauma.

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Speaker 11: So even if you don't have necessarily that entire volume

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Speaker 11: of blood that would indicate death, you have to look

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Speaker 11: at how these bloodstains were created, and if they were

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Speaker 11: created by force, that implies that there was some traumatic event.

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Speaker 11: And then also is I start thinking about how did

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Speaker 11: that bleeding victim leave that crime scene? And if you

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Speaker 11: don't see that bloody victim's footprints or evidence of them

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Speaker 11: crawling or being dragged out of the scene, you know

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Speaker 11: that they did not leave on their own free will.

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Speaker 11: So that is very much consistent with that person being

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Speaker 11: incapacitated and put inside of a vehicle and then driven

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Speaker 11: away from that crime scene. And it's very common in

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Speaker 11: nobody cases where there's blood well put.

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Speaker 4: How do you tell the eight old blood mark?

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Speaker 2: Sherman, You know what, little boy, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Fifty, nanty, I'm fifty.

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Speaker 4: Why would why would age of the blood matter?

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Speaker 5: Though?

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Speaker 4: I mean, if there's a lot of blood, all of

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Speaker 4: the scene, of all of a similar timeframe, why would

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Speaker 4: it matter age or not?

436
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: Well, it's my argue would be that it hits from

437
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: an older date that's not so recent. It does cast

438
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 3: some doubt into whether the blood came from this past

439
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,959
Speaker 3: weekend or a week and a half of Mark Sherman.

440
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: Let me ask you one question. Does two plus two

441
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: equal four in your world?

442
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 4: Yeah?

443
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So she takes the children to school that morning

444
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: that she disappears, there's a huge pool of blood, her

445
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: blood in her garage floor, in the master bedroom and elsewhere.

446
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: She was just alive. Ten hours later she's gone and

447
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: there's a pool of blood. Wow, whose could it be?

448
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: Do you think she bled out a week before and

449
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: managed to keep walking? I mean, I appreciate what you're

450
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: trying to do, Mark Sherman, but really, don't make me

451
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 2: take you back to law school, Okay, because I will.

452
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 3: No, I'm just I'm referring to the minor the miner's spattered,

453
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: not the pool of the blood. Obviously, they know there

454
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 3: are different places, in different locations that some blood.

455
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 2: And there's another issue, Mark Sherman. And yes, I'm pulling

456
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: your leg, but that's what successful defense attorneys do. That's

457
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: actually their job to find pot little holes in the

458
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: state's case until suddenly there's a flood of doubt coming

459
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: through those holes, and that's what he's doing, and that's

460
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: what makes them a good defense attorney. But in a yes, no,

461
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: doctor Kendall crowns. If blood had pulled that morning after

462
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: she came back home from drop off around eight point

463
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: fifteen eight thirty, in ten hours, the blood would not

464
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: be comp lately dried up. Would it still be tacky?

465
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: It can still be tacky. I mean that's a significant

466
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 4: amount of blood. It won't be completely dried in that time. Prime.

467
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 2: Okay, as Mark Sherman wants us to, you asked for it,

468
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: and now you're gonna get it. You know what Oscar

469
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: will said, be careful what you ask my dear for,

470
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: you will surely get it. And now you're getting it.

471
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: What does the mistress have to do with this? Look again,

472
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: I don't care his sleep, so see, but when a

473
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: dead body pops up, uh huh, I'm giving it to you,

474
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: both barrels. Take a listen to our cut. Five.

475
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 13: Multiple agencies took part in the search. Officers canvas the park,

476
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 13: handed out flyers and use canines and aerial searches, and

477
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 13: most dramatically, video searches of local CCTV cameras. Surveillance cameras

478
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 13: capture a man appearing to be Fotus Duelists disposing of

479
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 13: garbage bags in as many as thirty receptacles in the area.

480
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 13: A woman can be seen in the passenger seat of

481
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 13: the man's car. Police recover clothes and household items with

482
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 13: Jennifer Dulis's blood on it in trash cans around Hartford. Specifically,

483
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 13: the bags contained women's clothing, plastic zip ties, and a

484
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 13: white T shirt all stained. Police also found a stained

485
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 13: utility knife, a bath towel, and cleaning items such as

486
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 13: a kitchen sponge.

487
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: Oh hes a Nate Nicky's cleaning up blood Now listen

488
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: to Sidney Sumner Crime Online.

489
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 12: The woman in the vehicle with photos Dulos is identified

490
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 12: as his living girlfriend, Michelle Traconis. Police search warrants say

491
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 12: Michelle Traconis identified photos of the surveillance videos as photos

492
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 12: Dulos and admitted that she was the woman pictured. She

493
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 12: confirmed multiple stops were made to discard bags, but she

494
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 12: denies knowing what was in them. Dulos and Traconis, forty four,

495
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 12: are arrested charged with tampering or fabricating physical evidence and

496
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 12: hindering prosecution. They both pleaded not guilty.

497
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: And a Jim Smith, Chief investigative reporter dailymail dot com.

498
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: Her response is, oh, I was physy on my phone.

499
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. Be asked gym indeed.

500
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 6: I mean it's so suspicious stopping at this many trash cans,

501
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 6: this many locations. But she'sing she didn't ask any questions

502
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 6: of this man that she was living with, and as

503
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 6: you say, was just looking on her phone. Now you

504
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 6: have to, of course, wonder whether or not she's completely

505
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 6: making all of that up likely, or you have to

506
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 6: ask whether or not she really was that naive to

507
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 6: just be turning a blind eye not questioning this man

508
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 6: who by all kinds.

509
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: Of curious that my head is actually hurting and I

510
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: don't think so. I'm sure Mark Sherman that you don't

511
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: think so. I'm sure that's no. No, it's Robin okay,

512
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: Robin listen, Robin Drake FBI behavior analyst from my husband. Oh,

513
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: this is like eating a dirt sandwich for me. When

514
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: my husband who dries, I call him Granny Lynch because

515
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: he drives so slowly. I'm like, can you move this?

516
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 2: Tabatan for Pete's sake, when we're trying to get somewhere.

517
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: If he's stopped thirty times to throw things in trash,

518
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: you don't think I would be standing on my head

519
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: and the driver's seat. And not only that, when he

520
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: takes out a bloody bra or T shirt and throws

521
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: that away. Yeah, I'm gonna ask a question, Robin Drake.

522
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 10: Hundred percent, you know, and at the same time, I

523
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 10: acknowledge the fact that it's circumstantial. But what you have

524
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 10: here is and we said at the very beginning, you

525
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 10: have a life arc and a baseline of her. Michelle Traconiz,

526
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 10: her personal professional life, for her entire life has all

527
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 10: been about situational awareness because of the.

528
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: Job she had.

529
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 10: It's incongru with naivete. It's incan grew with lined and

530
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 10: deceiving yourself, with the types of jobs and people she's

531
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 10: been around her entire life. So for her to all

532
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 10: of a sudden say, oh, now I'm oblivious to this

533
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 10: new behavior that entered my life, of him throwing out

534
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 10: all these bags, it makes no sense. It doesn't hold

535
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 10: any water because completely incongruent with how she's lived here

536
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 10: life for the time.

537
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: And there is another issue to doctor Jeff Kelshewski, I

538
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: love security surveillance, and I'm looking right now on my

539
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: little phone at photusdealos with a bunch of stuff in

540
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: his hands, going toward a public trash can. And guess

541
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: who has gotten out of the car. Michelle Treconis. There's

542
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: no way. I mean, I'm looking at her. She's out

543
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 2: of the car. He's out, and she's out of the car,

544
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: and he is like three feet from her, maybe five feet,

545
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: throwing away bloody clothes. So doctor Jeff, how can she

546
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: say I didn't know what was going on?

547
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 8: Well, you know, you see this. We already saw this

548
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 8: with Photis this approach to lying by acting naive? Jury's

549
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 8: do not they look at what typical people would do

550
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 8: in typical situations. Be typical that you would be so

551
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 8: naive that when there's multiple dozens of stops with one

552
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 8: garbage bag being put into different trash receptacles, are you

553
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 8: really that naive that you wouldn't wonder what's going on?

554
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 8: So again, you see this a lot where people don't

555
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 8: know how to lie after a murder's been committed, and

556
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 8: they try to fall into this. I was naive and

557
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 8: I didn't know what was going on, but the jury

558
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 8: never really buys that very often.

559
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: Well, the judge dealt a real blow to the defense

560
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: by suppressing all of our so called searches, phone calls,

561
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: texts on her phone while she was in the car.

562
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: But let me just explain, actually, I'll let Dave Matt

563
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 2: explain it what the state's theory is. And again we

564
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: are waiting right now for the trial of Mistress Michelle

565
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: Traconis to start.

566
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 7: Listen, our investigators believe Dulos took a Toyota Tacoma without permission,

567
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 7: driving a new Canaan. In a video caught by a

568
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 7: passing school bus, that Tacoma is seen on the side

569
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 7: of the road near Waveney Park. There's a bicycle in

570
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 7: the back, and it's approximately one hundred feet from where

571
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 7: Jennifer Dulo's suburban would be found. Police believed Dulos rode

572
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 7: the bicycle to Jennifer Dulo's house, lying in wait until

573
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 7: she returned from taking the children to school. Then he

574
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 7: assaulted her in the garage. He then drove the suburban

575
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 7: with Jennifer Dulo's dead or unconscious inside, to the park

576
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 7: and transferred the body into the Tacoma. Just five days later,

577
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 7: police find video of photos Dulos again driving the Tacoma

578
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 7: without permission, heading to a car wash. Police were able

579
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 7: to find traces of Jennifer Dulo's DNA on the vehicle's

580
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 7: passenger seat of the Tacoma. The man who owns the truck,

581
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 7: Paul wel Jermini, is among the two hundred and fifty

582
00:33:50,840 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 7: people who may be called to testify.

583
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

584
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: So let me understand, Jenn Smith puts Dulos barred employees

585
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: vehicle without their permission, and now Jennifer Dulos's DNA is

586
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: on the vehicle's passenger seat of that Tacoma. There's no

587
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: reason her DNA should be on somebody's the back passenger seat.

588
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: Is I recall it of the Taco the Toyota Tacoma

589
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 2: of a guy she doesn't really even know, and he

590
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 2: Dulos borrowed the truck and was driving around with Michelle

591
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: Traconis in the front seat.

592
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 6: Yes, no, Jenn Smith, Yeah, absolutely, And you know, talk

593
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 6: about horrible bosses, right. I just want to point out

594
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 6: that this employee has never been a suspect, ever been arrested,

595
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 6: has never been accused in any way of having any

596
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 6: involvement in this. Like the sound clips you just played

597
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 6: point out, he may well be called to to buy.

598
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 6: He's been very cooperative with the police. It really speaks

599
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 6: to kind of the character of Whoti Dolus, right. If

600
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 6: he's willing to involve very innocent people, including his employees,

601
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 6: in this, it kind of shows you what type of

602
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 6: money was and when.

603
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: It comes to murder, there's no defense. I would just

604
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: quote along for the ride, I want you to listen

605
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: to police interviewing Michelle Traconis in our cut twenty one oh.

606
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: By the way, she's worried during the interview, not about

607
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: Jennifer Dulos being murdered. She's worried that photos Doulos, her lover,

608
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: wanted to get back with his wife. Listen to this.

609
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 13: If he kills his mother of his five children, also,

610
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 13: who appears to have been wanting to get back with

611
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 13: that mom?

612
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: Or do you do his film?

613
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 7: Yeah?

614
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 13: Sorry, here he kills the mother of his five children,

615
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 13: and importing to do is you know, from what we

616
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 13: hear from other people and home, you.

617
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: Feared to have been wanting to get back to who

618
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: wanted to get back to her? Yeah, she's not like, Wow,

619
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 2: Jennifer Delos has been murdered. There's a gallon of her

620
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: blood on the floor. Now she's like, who wanted to

621
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: get back with her? That's all she cares about. Is

622
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 2: she insane? I don't I don't really get it, Robin Drake.

623
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: The woman has been slaughtered. Her five children are going

624
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: to grow up without a mom, and she's like he

625
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: wanted to get back with her.

626
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 10: In no way, it just shows that she the behavior

627
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 10: is indicative of the fact that the death is not

628
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 10: a shock to her and the self centeredness in her statements.

629
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: Let's hear more from the mistress. Michelle treconis again not

630
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: caring at all about the dead mom of five, but

631
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: all consumed with the fact that photos doss, fotos dulos

632
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: that lie in pace of crap. She's all concerned he

633
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: wanted to get back with his wife. Let's not cut

634
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: twenty three.

635
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 14: He was shown you let me tell you something about photos.

636
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 5: Show what training.

637
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: We want to tell you something that everyone in this

638
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: room is probably under.

639
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 7: Photos lies to everyone.

640
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 5: And the reason he lies to everyone he cares.

641
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 14: About one person in the world, himself, that's himself.

642
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 5: He didn't care about his first wife. He didn't care

643
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 5: about his second wife.

644
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: He doesn't care about you.

645
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 14: He says all kinds of things to all kinds of

646
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 14: people to get what he wants.

647
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 3: Okay, he manipulates, he controls.

648
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: We have no doubt he did that to you.

649
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 14: He lies to you, so I know him.

650
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 13: You know what I'm trying to make trying to explain

651
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 13: to you.

652
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: So he owes you, he feels he.

653
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 13: Owes you, and nothing.

654
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: If he could put this murder on you.

655
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 2: Do you know you could hear her in the back

656
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: I'm going she only starts crying when they talk about

657
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: him trying to get back with his wife. That's all

658
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 2: this woman cares about. And I want to also play

659
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 2: you're hearing Michelle Tracontas herself speaking, and I want to

660
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: let you hear what who was that talking? Either Robin

661
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: Drake or Jeff Gentry about calling her? It was Robin

662
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 2: about calling her the most hated woman in America. She's

663
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 2: not crying about the five children now without a mother. Listen,

664
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: have you lived at the news all have you seen

665
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 2: your face plaster?

666
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 14: Honest with you, you're probably.

667
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 4: One of the most hated women in a perple.

668
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 14: You know and I'm not being mean.

669
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 6: So that's how this is like a golden ticket.

670
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 14: If you know where he could have done something and

671
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 14: could have where he frequents, if you could tip us off,

672
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 14: maybe he said something you ingest, something passing that you

673
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 14: can say you don't want that rings about maybe all right.

674
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: But Jess Smith dailymail dot Com she never did. She

675
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: has to this date never given up where she thinks

676
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: Jennifer Doulos's body is.

677
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

678
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 6: Correct, She is absolutely maintaining that she knows nothing about

679
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 6: what happened to Jennifer Doulos, and I insisting that she

680
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 6: was never made part of any form of cover up

681
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 6: to assist Hotels Japan.

682
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 2: Mark Sherman, Yeah, I.

683
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 3: Just I still don't see evidence that she intentionally assisted

684
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 3: photos with the actual murder.

685
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 5: If you want to.

686
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 3: Talk about covering it up, there's a very strong argument

687
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: in the state that's what hindering prosecution is the driving around,

688
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: the dumping, the bags, the alibi scripts. But where no

689
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 3: one has pointed to anything that said she was aware

690
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 3: she was going to be killed and that she participated

691
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: in that.

692
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 2: That's actually a really good point at Jeff Kosiski to

693
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: go back to.

694
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 8: An earlier point where the idea when you're trying to

695
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 8: get information out of someone during an interview, you know,

696
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 8: it's like these detectives tried to put her in a

697
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 8: position where she was going to have an emotional reaction

698
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 8: towards spite and want to rat out her boyfriend. But

699
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 8: to a point that was made earlier, they didn't really

700
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 8: give her an opportunity, sort of an off ramp to

701
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 8: get out of this. And when the points have been

702
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 8: brought up about, Okay, this woman is murdered, she's a

703
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 8: mother of five children. In those types of situations, you

704
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 8: want to give an off ramp that maybe gives her

705
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 8: an opportunity to show if there is any compassion towards

706
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 8: the situation, and that you sort of approach it like

707
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 8: you feel bad for her that she's caught up in this,

708
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 8: so can you provide us more information. They try to

709
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 8: put her into a position where she's going to be

710
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 8: spiteful towards this man that she apparently loves, and that's

711
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 8: a hard cell. But again, they didn't give her an

712
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 8: opportunity to provide her an off ramp by showing a

713
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 8: little bit of it's even fake compassion towards her. That oh,

714
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 8: We're so sorry you're caught up in this situation. Hey,

715
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 8: we want to help you get out of this. Tell

716
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 8: us what really happened.

717
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: Okay, let me throw that to him, Robin jump in.

718
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, So to the point exactly, when you're interviewing someone

719
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 10: in trying to inspire confession and offering that off ramp,

720
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 10: the off ramp's got to be in terms of what's

721
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 10: important to that individual, and a lot of times you

722
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 10: guess at it, and they guessed at it and missed

723
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 10: the mark. And that's why she never took the golden ticket.

724
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 11: She had no idea what that golden ticket was.

725
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: M the channel Crown's way, Well, I would.

726
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 4: Just say this is you have a lot of the

727
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 4: blood at the scene. You've got multiple trash bags in

728
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 4: the back of a truck that isn't his. There's blood

729
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 4: in the truck and he's disposing of Bonnie part says.

730
00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 4: He's driving about this affluent suburb with his girlfriend Slash

731
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call her, on her phone, not

732
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 4: paying attention. Somehow, I find it odd that she had

733
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: no idea what was going on and what he was

734
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 4: up to. But that's, of course my opinion. But it's

735
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 4: hard to dispose of a body, and the way that

736
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 4: they've not been able to find it, he had to

737
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 4: have cut her up into pretty small pieces and somehow

738
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 4: disposed of her torso with nobody noticing, including the person

739
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 4: in the chair next to him in the vehicle, that

740
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 4: he was disposing the.

741
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: Body with Jeff Gentry, what about it?

742
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 11: I actually have a question related to Michelle's involvement. So

743
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 11: this was obviously a planned murder, it was very clear.

744
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 5: But with her having.

745
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 11: Generated notes with Potus about the alibi, couldn't that be

746
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 11: considered involvement in the murder even if she didn't necessarily

747
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 11: directly participate in killing her?

748
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: Well, you're absolutely correct, Jeff Gentry. What about it? Jen Smith?

749
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: And notes? We haven't even gotten to them.

750
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 13: Yeah.

751
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 6: So, when Sosi do A was trying to establish his

752
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 6: alibi for the morning at Jennifer Dulis's disappearance, he enlisted

753
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 6: the support of his girlfriend, Michelle Terconez and asked her

754
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 6: to walk him through exactly what they had done that morning,

755
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 6: where he was when he was their kind of additional

756
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,560
Speaker 6: time stamp so that they could have it over to

757
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 6: the police. They literally concocted the story together of where

758
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 6: he was. Now, the question, obviously, is whether or not

759
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 6: it was a true story. Michelle insists that she didn't

760
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 6: lie and he was everywhere that they claimed he was.

761
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 6: But it's fishy to have to sit down together and

762
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 6: put together at the timeline on the morning of your

763
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 6: wife's murder. You would surely know where you were. You

764
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 6: wouldn't need to confer with anybody about it if you

765
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,399
Speaker 6: have nothing to hide. That is the state's case.

766
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 3: That's what hidory prosecution is. It's rendering assistance as someone

767
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 3: who has committed a murder, and I think that's where

768
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 3: she has the exposure.

769
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: The trial set to start, we wait as just a

770
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: sun false goodbye said

771
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 14: Well