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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous mom disappears after

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Speaker 1: a family dinner. What happened to Melissa? I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, she.

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Speaker 2: Said, work one morning and here comes to my dad

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Speaker 2: walking in the door.

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Speaker 1: Where's your sister, he said, because we can't find her.

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Speaker 3: She didn't show up for Christmas.

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Speaker 4: She didn't call your mom and tell her happy Birthday either,

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Speaker 4: And I was like, wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: Something's wrong.

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Speaker 5: Melissa Wolfenberger, a young, married mother of two, has gone missing.

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Speaker 5: Her parents are worried thick about her because this is

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Speaker 5: not like her.

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Speaker 1: The kids were her life.

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Speaker 4: No way, there's no way she would have ever left them.

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Speaker 1: You know. I know it's anecdotal when let me just

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Speaker 1: say spectators those on the outside looking in here she

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Speaker 1: would never have left her children. But when you know

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Speaker 1: the mom, you realize that it's absolutely true that there

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Speaker 1: is no way she would have willingly left her children.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Melissa? Joining me in All Star Pedal,

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Speaker 1: But first I want to go to Melissa's sister, Tina Patten,

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Speaker 1: also joining us, her mother Norma Patten. To both of you,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. And also for being

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Speaker 1: Melissa's voice, because without you, people would forget about her.

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Speaker 1: I had never even heard about Melissa or her disappearance

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Speaker 1: until you made it known. Again, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. I want to go first to you. Melissa's mother,

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Speaker 1: Norma Patten, tell me about Melissa as a mother. Why

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Speaker 1: are you so convinced she would never have parted with

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Speaker 1: her children?

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Speaker 6: Because she just she loved her kids. They were the

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Speaker 6: most precious thing in the world to her. She would

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Speaker 6: have never left them under any circumstances.

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Speaker 1: In addition to Norma, Melissa's mother or Tina is with us,

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Speaker 1: her sister. Explain to me, why are you so convinced

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Speaker 1: she would never have willingly left her children? Why she

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Speaker 1: went back home because of the kids.

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Speaker 2: She would have never left them, not for any amount

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Speaker 2: of time at all.

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Speaker 1: Again with me, an all star panel. You know, Darryl

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Speaker 1: Cohen is with me. Former felony prosecutor in inner city Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: now high profile defense attorney from Cohen Cooper Estephan Allen

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Speaker 1: in the Atlanta jurisdiction. Darryl see, I understand what Norma

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Speaker 1: and Tina are telling me, and I agree with them

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Speaker 1: from what I've now learned about her. It would take

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Speaker 1: wild horses to drag her away from her family, from

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Speaker 1: her children. But when you're talking to a jury they've

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Speaker 1: never met Melissa, you have to have hard examples about

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Speaker 1: why you know and this is anecdotalis story, it's not

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Speaker 1: a statistic or a fact that she would never have

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Speaker 1: done this. I guess the way to do that is

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Speaker 1: to load your jury with mothers or grandmothers, because they

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Speaker 1: get it. They know what we're talking about. When we say, oh, hl, no,

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Speaker 1: Melissa would never have left without them, this is bs,

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Speaker 1: this is bogus. She didn't just go away and move

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Speaker 1: to Arizona to start a new life for California. That

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Speaker 1: did not happen.

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Speaker 7: So, Nana, see what you have to do is you

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Speaker 7: take Melissa. You take her and make her into a

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Speaker 7: real person, not just a statistic that's something we've seen

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Speaker 7: on the news. But you talk about her as a mother,

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Speaker 7: You talk about the wonderful thing she did as a mother,

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Speaker 7: and on the other side of Jax you say, thank

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Speaker 7: you very much, I understand, and you accept it, and

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Speaker 7: then you go on and you still continue to personalize her.

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Speaker 7: You've got to make her someone that the jury loves

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Speaker 7: the very beginning, regardless of the facts.

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Speaker 1: Yet, Yeah, cherylmccollum, how do we prove it? Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Cheryl McCollum, director and founder of the Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute Forensics Expert. You can find her at coldcasecrimes

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Speaker 1: dot org and she is the one, along with the

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Speaker 1: Patent family, who has spearheaded this and first told me

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Speaker 1: about Melissa's disappearance. She's host of a brand new hit podcast,

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Speaker 1: Zone seven. Cheryl, maybe I'm not as I would like

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Speaker 1: to say to my judges, or let me rephrase that question.

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Speaker 1: In other words, the witness, what is it telling me?

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Speaker 1: What I need is jury to hear they what is

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Speaker 1: wrong with them? So let me rephrase the question to you.

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Speaker 1: You can't just say to a jury, hey, this mom

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Speaker 1: would never leave her children. You have to be able

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Speaker 1: to prove she would never leave her children. I know

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Speaker 1: it's hard for family members to take in because they're

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Speaker 1: so upset about the whole thing, But I immediately go to

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Speaker 1: the evidence. How can you prove this to a jury?

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Speaker 1: For instance, she never left them alone. She moved from

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Speaker 1: New York to Atlanta so they could have a better

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Speaker 1: life and be around their grandparents. She sacrificed one, two, three,

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Speaker 1: and four for her children. She wouldn't leave them with

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Speaker 1: a babysitter. Blah blah, blah blah. I've got to have

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Speaker 1: a way to prove this to a jury. So how

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Speaker 1: do you prove this was a devoted mother that would

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Speaker 1: never have left her children, because that is fact number one.

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Speaker 8: For me, exactly what you're saying. You paint this picture

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Speaker 8: of who Melissa was. She left jobs so that she

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Speaker 8: could stay home with the children. She did not leave

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Speaker 8: them overnight. Ever, she wanted them with her. She went

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Speaker 8: out of her way to be with them. She sang

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Speaker 8: to them, she read books to them, She took them

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Speaker 8: to visit their grandparents on both sides. She visited with

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Speaker 8: her sister. She wanted those children with her at all times.

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Speaker 8: There is no chance she just was walking down the

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Speaker 8: street and said, Hey, I'm off to California.

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Speaker 1: Oh hey, Cheryl, you're giving me an idea. Does the

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Speaker 1: name Drew Peterson ring a bell to you? It should?

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Speaker 1: Let's see how many wives did he kill? Two that

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Speaker 1: I know of? Okay, Drew Peterson, police officer, not that

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Speaker 1: that's here nor there, police officer, and his third wife,

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Sommio ends up dead in a drowned in a

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Speaker 1: dry bathtub, her body covered in bruises. Remember that, and

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Speaker 1: for some reason they rule that an accidental death a

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Speaker 1: dry bathtub. How do you slip and fall with that

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Speaker 1: many bruises and a dry bathtub? Why you don't? That's

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Speaker 1: how you do it? You don't. Then we get to

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Speaker 1: Stacy Peterson. Well, her body has never been found. But

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Speaker 1: what did he say when Stacy Peterson left, left her car,

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Speaker 1: left her children, left her furs and her beautiful clothes

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Speaker 1: that she had accumulated. She left with a boyfriend? What

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Speaker 1: on foot? What boyfriend? There was no boyfriend? Or how

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Speaker 1: many times have you heard she just wanted alone time, meantime.

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Speaker 8: That is BS completely BS. And in Melissa's case, the

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Speaker 8: family only had one car. So how did she get

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Speaker 8: to California?

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Speaker 3: She don't.

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Speaker 8: They didn't have EPs for money, they weren't loaded. She

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Speaker 8: wouldn't have had a way to get to California. She

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Speaker 8: had no cell phone, she didn't take any clothes, she

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Speaker 8: didn't take any money, she didn't have a vehicle, she

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Speaker 8: had no way of contacting any woman. She took nothing

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Speaker 8: that was precious to her, including her children, it's just

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Speaker 8: not ring.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't range through.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know all of that is true, but you've

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Speaker 1: got to be able to prove it to a jury.

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Speaker 1: And I want to point out something that you just said,

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Speaker 1: and you're entirely correct, Cheryl McCollum. She gave up a

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Speaker 1: job to have more time with her children. Now, nobody

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Speaker 1: was supporting her. She wasn't living off the government, she

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Speaker 1: didn't have a rich husband, a sugar daddy, nothing, And

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Speaker 1: she gave up a job in order to be with

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Speaker 1: her children more and took a job that had horrible hours.

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Speaker 1: You've heard so many stories about moms working all night,

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Speaker 1: stocking shelves, working two in three jobs to support their children.

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Speaker 1: She did that. She did all that and more, giving

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Speaker 1: up one job that was really good for her so

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Speaker 1: she could spend more time with her children. So what

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Speaker 1: do we know. She has a family dinner, then she disappears. Listen.

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Speaker 9: Thanksgiving Day, Melissa Wolfenberger makes a visit to her parents,

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Speaker 9: Carl and Norma Patten. Melissa is excited for the holidays

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Speaker 9: and asks her mother for a very specific gift. When

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Speaker 9: Melissa doesn't even call Christmas Day, Norma Patten is unsettled

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Speaker 9: but Melissa doesn't have a cell phone or a car,

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Speaker 9: So Norma assumes her daughter is busy with her own

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Speaker 9: family and we'll pick up her gifts later. When Melissa

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Speaker 9: doesn't wish her mom a happy birthday two months later,

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Speaker 9: Norma Patten asks family members if anyone has seen her.

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Speaker 9: Tina Patton realizes Melissa hasn't worked a shift with her

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Speaker 9: in months.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I smell a rat right there. At the beginning.

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Speaker 1: She goes to this family get together and then she's

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Speaker 1: never seen again. Now, think about it. She doesn't have

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Speaker 1: a car, how is she getting around? Somehow? She manages

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Speaker 1: to take care of her children and get to work.

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Speaker 1: But then suddenly Tina realizes Melissa's hasn't worked her shift

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Speaker 1: at a restaurant in months. It hadn't occurred to her before,

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Speaker 1: but when she began analyzing it, she realized her sister

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Speaker 1: had not worked at the restaurant for months. It didn't

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Speaker 1: dawn on anyone. Why should it? But you heard earlier

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Speaker 1: that she was there and she asked for a specific

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Speaker 1: gift and then never showed up to get it. What

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Speaker 1: was the gift?

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Speaker 4: Listen, she had asked me for something in particular, and

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Speaker 4: she said, that was all the only thing she wanted.

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Speaker 4: And it wasn't something now I could go to the

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Speaker 4: store and buy. It was something I had to find.

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Speaker 4: And what it was was a picture of her with

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Speaker 4: her papa, her daddy father, And that's all she wanted

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Speaker 4: was that picture. So I found a picture of him

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Speaker 4: and her together. She was only five years old, maybe

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Speaker 4: six that the most. I took it and had it

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Speaker 4: blow up into a night by ten and had it

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Speaker 4: wrapped up and under the Christmas tree.

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Speaker 1: And she didn't.

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Speaker 4: Calls, she didn't come get it, you know. And that

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Speaker 4: was just they wouldn't like her. The kids were her life.

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Speaker 4: There's no way she would have ever left them. The

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Speaker 4: girl was three and the little boy was two.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Melissa? Now? Just to throw a wrench

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Speaker 1: in this, just to take the APD Atlanta Police Department's

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Speaker 1: focus off Missing Melissa, an unrelated skull pops up listen.

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Speaker 10: Atlanta PD finds a severede human skull that rolled out

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Speaker 10: of a ripped trash bag in the middle of Avon Avenue.

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Speaker 10: Industrial businesses lining one side of the street. The other

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Speaker 10: is bordered by train tracks. Just over a month later,

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Speaker 10: four more trash bags are discovered two blocks down Avon

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Speaker 10: in a wooded area. Inside are a pair of legs

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Speaker 10: and arms. Police cannot locate it tow ourd soll you know, to.

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Speaker 1: Justin Scott Morgan, professor forensic's death investigator, with I believe

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Speaker 1: you said at least one thousand death investigations under your belt?

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 11: A little bit higher than that?

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Speaker 1: But that's okay? Yeah, what do you mean ten eleven hundred?

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Speaker 1: Just give me a ballpark.

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Speaker 11: Probably closer to ten thousand.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I thought that was me and the number of

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Speaker 1: pleas and trials I had, but it's actually you. Okay, Wow,

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Speaker 1: Let that just sink in for a moment. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can't learn that in the book, although you have

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Speaker 1: been educated here up to hear ten thousand death scends,

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Speaker 1: some accidents, some suicide, some natural causes, many of them homicide.

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Speaker 1: That in mind, your worst work nightmare, I guess, would

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Speaker 1: be finding ahead a skull, a skull that you cannot identify.

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Speaker 1: How difficult is that for a death investigator or medical examiner.

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Speaker 1: You have no torso to connect, You got nothing you.

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Speaker 11: Don't You're given very limited, you know, very limited evidence

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Speaker 11: to draw upon to do an analysis, and people would say,

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Speaker 11: I think, you know, well, you have a skull, isn't

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Speaker 11: that enough? No, it's not because without you know, we

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Speaker 11: think about things in the totality of evidence. What else

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Speaker 11: is there? Well, what evidence do you have when you

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Speaker 11: have a bag that has been ripped found in the

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Speaker 11: middle of a road that contains a human skull, Well,

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Speaker 11: there's a lot. There's a lot to go on there

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Speaker 11: relative to this. When you begin to think about an investigation,

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Speaker 11: how exactly would a skull becomes separated from the rest

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Speaker 11: of the skeleton. How far along in the decompositional process

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Speaker 11: is skull You know, that gives us an indication of

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Speaker 11: how long the skull perhaps was in the back, how

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Speaker 11: did the bag wind up in the road, and why

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Speaker 11: is it ripped? You know, you begin to think about

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Speaker 11: animal activity. You don't necessarily think that some person that

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Speaker 11: would perpetrate this. And mind you, I'm thinking homicide immediately here,

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Speaker 11: and that's our one working theory is that all deaths

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Speaker 11: are homicides until proven otherwise.

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Speaker 1: Jo Sky Morgan, please stop. I'm not a death investigator

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Speaker 1: with ten thousand deaths under my belt. I'm certainly not

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner. But when a skull is found, disattached

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Speaker 1: from the body and a ripped trash bag out near

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Speaker 1: the street. It doesn't take an MD to figure out

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Speaker 1: it's homicide. What the skull does jump into the bag

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Speaker 1: and threw itself down the street. I mean practically speaking,

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Speaker 1: of course it's a homicide. And another another thing, how

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Speaker 1: long does it take? You got to help me verbalize this,

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Speaker 1: because you're the expert. How long does it take for

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Speaker 1: I know we say skeleton or skull, but how long

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Speaker 1: would it take for a skull to become skeletonized? In

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Speaker 1: other words, you look at the skull and there is

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Speaker 1: no skin on the no eyes, no hair, nothing to

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Speaker 1: help you identify it.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, assuming that the skull is in fact a skull,

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Speaker 11: that means that it's absent of any kind of soft tissue,

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Speaker 11: anything that's left behind that would be connected to the skull.

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Speaker 11: Just based upon that, the level of heat and exposure,

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Speaker 11: particularly contained in a plastic bag, is going to potentially

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Speaker 11: impact that. So it's going to accelerate this event. But

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Speaker 11: here's the curious thing. The skull was actually recovered in April,

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Speaker 11: so we're coming out of the cooler month, So that's

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Speaker 11: going to kind of skew your data a little bit

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Speaker 11: relative to how long this would have taken. Every single

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Speaker 11: second counts here, But you're looking to get to the

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Speaker 11: point of skeletonization. You're looking at this point in tom

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Speaker 11: probably about at minimum, at minimum eight eight weeks to

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Speaker 11: perhaps twelve weeks.

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Speaker 1: I would think, Okay, listen to more of the forensic evidence.

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Speaker 5: Tealafara County calls the Atlanta Police Department and say, hey,

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Speaker 5: we've got a body down here in a ravine.

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Speaker 1: With no head. It might be your guy.

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Speaker 5: So the Atlanta Police Department takes the skull, goes to

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Speaker 5: tel Afara County.

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Speaker 1: It's no match.

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Speaker 5: Four more trash bags were found near where the skull

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Speaker 5: was found. Each of those trash bags contained an arm

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Speaker 5: or a leg no torso. So now in the same

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Speaker 5: general area we have two arms, two legs, and a skull.

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Speaker 1: You know, we recently had a dismembered body where the

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Speaker 1: body parts were found. Her name Shade Robinson. Beautiful young

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Speaker 1: girl goes on a date and it's never seen alive again.

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Speaker 1: And then pedestrians, moms and dads find different parts of

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Speaker 1: her in different parks, children's parks, all around the area.

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Speaker 1: And it took some doing to connect the parts together

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Speaker 1: to figure out these are all from one person. And

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Speaker 1: now Cheryl McCollum. First is a skull that is in

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Speaker 1: a ripped trash bag. Then suddenly we find other trash

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Speaker 1: bags full of several remains, but they're identified as a male.

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Speaker 1: So that's not helping anything in this case. I find

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Speaker 1: it really difficult to believe that you have the same

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Speaker 1: kind of trash bags and you've got a skull in

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Speaker 1: one and body parts in the others, and they're not related.

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Speaker 1: They have to be related.

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Speaker 8: It is important that this was not a quick problem.

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Speaker 8: To ever perpetrate this killed this person, then dismembered and

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Speaker 8: beheaded them, put them into trash bags, and then placed

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Speaker 8: them somewhere. So you basically had three separate crime scenes

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Speaker 8: where they were killed, how they were transported to where

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Speaker 8: they were dump.

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Speaker 1: Caerl that I understand you to say chlorox was poured

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Speaker 1: into the skull, correct.

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Speaker 3: So again, why would a cleaning agent be used?

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Speaker 8: That's like to clean up something, So that should tell

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Speaker 8: you something about the perpetrator. You have to factor that in.

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Speaker 1: While police are busy with the unidentified male skull and

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Speaker 1: body parts, the family is still looking for.

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Speaker 5: Melissa at the same time that the Atlanta Police Department

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Speaker 5: is dealing with the unidentified skull. Melissa Wolfenberger, a young

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Speaker 5: married mother of two, has gone missing. Her parents are

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Speaker 5: worried sick about her because this is not like her.

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Speaker 5: They saw her at Thanksgiving, they did not see her

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Speaker 5: at Christmas or worried as her birthday rolled around. Melissa

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Speaker 5: had never not contacted her on her birthday.

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Speaker 4: We went to Atlanta on Brookline Avenue where they were living.

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Speaker 4: The house was completely deserted. We talked to some of

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Speaker 4: the neighbors and they said that he'd moved down of

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Speaker 4: the house right around Christmas or the first of the year,

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Speaker 4: and they told us where he was working at. So

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Speaker 4: we went over there and talked to the owner of

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Speaker 4: the glass company. At that point we just didn't know.

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Speaker 1: And the owner of the glass company tells the family

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Speaker 1: that the husband we're talking about, the husband, Melissa Wolfenberger's husband,

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Speaker 1: had been fired and then he disappears. Now Tina and

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Speaker 1: Norman Patten joining us, the mom and sister Melissa. Tina,

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Speaker 1: let me understand this. Your sister is there for Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: She asked for a particular picture as a Christmas gift

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Speaker 1: of her and her grandfather. Then she does to show

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Speaker 1: up for Christmas. You then start looking for her yourself,

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Speaker 1: call the restaurant where she works and they tell you

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Speaker 1: she hasn't shown up for weeks at her shift. And

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Speaker 1: then at the same time, around Christmas time, he is

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Speaker 1: far from his job and disappears. Do I have that

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Speaker 1: timing correct, Tina Patten? Yes, Okay, that's not good. So

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Speaker 1: police finally track down the husband and this is what happens.

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Speaker 10: Christopher Wolfenberger tells detectives he last saw Melissa in Atlanta.

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Speaker 10: Wolfenberger says the couple always talked about moving the family

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Speaker 10: to California and starting new lives. Wolfenberger says Melissa decided

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Speaker 10: to go alone. Wolfenberger says Melissa broke his heart, so

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Speaker 10: he made no attempt to look for her and assumes

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Speaker 10: she's living in California under a new name.

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Speaker 1: Then a stunning twist in the case. While the family's

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Speaker 1: desperately searching for Melissa, we find out the skull that

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Speaker 1: was found in the rip trash bag it's not a man,

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Speaker 1: it's a woman. Share role. Did the medical examiner actually

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Speaker 1: mischaracterize the skull as a man when it's a woman.

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Speaker 3: It was misidentified as a Caucasian.

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Speaker 1: Mail Okay, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, how does that happen?

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Speaker 1: You can't look at a skull and figure out it's

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Speaker 1: a man or a woman.

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Speaker 11: In most cases you can, but it's not completely definitive.

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Speaker 11: There is a percentage, and this is what these forensic

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Speaker 11: anthropologists work off of to get these bodies identified. And

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Speaker 11: I've got to say that not only was it the

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Speaker 11: medical examiner that was involved in this, quite strikingly, it

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Speaker 11: was actually the University of Tennessee Body Farm, the anthropology

352
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Speaker 11: department there that came to the same conclusion Nancy, which

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Speaker 11: is absolutely mind blowing to me because this is what

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Speaker 11: they specialize in.

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Speaker 1: And then lo and behold listen.

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Speaker 5: One of the first things he realized is where Melissa's

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Speaker 5: husband worked at Action Glass and where the skull was

358
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Speaker 5: found was on the same street, Avon Avenue to the

359
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Speaker 5: Atlanta Police Department and says, look, this skull was found

360
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Speaker 5: just feet away from where a missing woman's husband works.

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Speaker 5: So they agreed to get the dental records and have

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Speaker 5: the medical examiner see if they could identify who that

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Speaker 5: skull belonged to. On March fourteenth, two thousand and three.

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Speaker 5: The skull is identified as Melissa Wolfenberg.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand this straight out to Norma Patten,

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Speaker 1: who has been looking exhaustively for her daughter, no one

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Speaker 1: will listen. She said, Oh, she's run off with a boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: What boyfriend? She'll come back. You knew all along your

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Speaker 1: daughter would never have left her children. When did you

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Speaker 1: learn that this skull, which had been misidentified as a

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Speaker 1: white male is your daughter?

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Speaker 10: Brice Jordan.

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Speaker 12: From Fayette County. He came to the house to my

374
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Speaker 12: home and I walked outside on the porch and I

375
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Speaker 12: was told that she had been identified in Atlanta, that

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Speaker 12: her body had been dismembered.

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Speaker 1: What went through your mind? After all the time you

378
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Speaker 1: had searched for your daughter and you get this news.

379
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Speaker 1: I was devastated completely.

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Speaker 12: I screamed and I was crying. My two grandkids that

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Speaker 12: were here with me came out to find out what

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Speaker 12: was going on, and.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't know what to do. Tina Patton, how

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Speaker 1: did you discover that all this time your sister had

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Speaker 1: been dead and her body misidentified as a white male.

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Speaker 2: I received a phone call and they said, have you

387
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Speaker 2: seen the news? And I said no, and they said, well,

388
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Speaker 2: Melissa was found and all they found with her skull?

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Speaker 1: What went through your mind? How? How could this happen

390
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Speaker 1: to her? And I was just distraught.

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Speaker 3: She came in one night with a handprint around.

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Speaker 2: The throat, her eyes were red, she had been crying,

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Speaker 2: and I knew what it was.

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Speaker 1: It was Chris.

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Speaker 4: It was the look in his eyes when I met him.

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Speaker 4: You could just see the meanness in his eyes.

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Speaker 1: Melissa didn't deserve what she got. She didn't deserve it.

398
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Speaker 1: How could this be? All this time, her family bagging police,

399
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Speaker 1: begging other investigators, telling them she's missing. No one took

400
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Speaker 1: them seriously. Then, when a dismembered skull and body parts

401
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: are found, they're misidentified as a white male. Only later

402
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: after a dental record examination, was it discovered those remains

403
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 1: are in fact Melissa. Listen.

404
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 13: My main focus is on the bags Melissa's body was

405
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Speaker 13: placed in. We both know it would be hard to

406
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Speaker 13: tie knots, especially in plastic bags, without leaving trace evidence

407
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 13: of some sort. Whenever murder occurs, some kind of evidence

408
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 13: is left. No matter how careful the killer is, evidence

409
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 13: will be there. It may be overlooked, but that does

410
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Speaker 13: not mean it's not there. There is no perfect crime.

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Speaker 1: That is a letter from Melissa's dad being read by

412
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Speaker 1: our friend Walt McCollum, still seeking justice for his daughter.

413
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: That's Carl Patten. But what more do we know? We

414
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Speaker 1: know that the body the remains were in plastic bags

415
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Speaker 1: Joskott Morgan. Plastic bags can be a forensic treasure trove.

416
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Speaker 11: Why well, first off, you can trace them back to

417
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 11: the manufacturer whoever made these things. You can actually get

418
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 11: it down to the run that they came off of

419
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 11: the perforations on each bag. You begin to think about

420
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Speaker 11: how they're connected, what type of bag it is. Also,

421
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 11: you know the plastic that you talk about the plastic bags.

422
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 11: One of the things that we look at is that

423
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 11: plastic bags are a non poor surface. So guess what

424
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 11: you can find many times and find latent prints. And

425
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 11: when you look at the knots and the way bags

426
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 11: are tied, think about how you have to manipulate that

427
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 11: bag in order to tie it up. That's why we

428
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 11: have to be very very careful when we're undoing a knot,

429
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 11: for instance, at the crime lab or even in the morgue,

430
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 11: so that we don't destroy any of that evidence, not

431
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 11: to mention if the individual has left any of their

432
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 11: DNA there on that bag, that in fact could kind

433
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Speaker 11: of cap off this idea of it being a treasure

434
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Speaker 11: trove for forensic evidence exactly.

435
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: And what do we learn from the remains themselves?

436
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 14: Listen, there were some vertebra that still remained with the head.

437
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 14: It wasn't many, and the vertebra had been sawed through,

438
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 14: and he, you know, he made note of a mechanical

439
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 14: saw that had dismembered the body, at least at that level,

440
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 14: that the tool marks that were left behind were consistent

441
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 14: with something other than a handheld saw. You know, you

442
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 14: think about a carpenter saw or hacksaw or those sorts

443
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 14: of things. That's not what happened in this case.

444
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: The level of violence in this case is overwhelming. Out

445
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: to Tina and Norma, I'm sorry to drag you through

446
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: more pain, but the fact that we now know a

447
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: mechanical saw we believe was used in the dismemberment of

448
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: this beautiful young mom, your daughter, your sister. I mean,

449
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: how do you go forward? How do you sleep at

450
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: night knowing this happened to her? It's really hard to sleep.

451
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 12: Knowing, well, what was done to her and not knowing

452
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 12: why it was done.

453
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder sometimes about tell tell signs. Was

454
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: there a red flag? Could we tell at the beginning

455
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: that this was going sideways? Guys, take a listen to this.

456
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 4: It was the look in his eyes when I met him.

457
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 4: You could just see the meanness in his eyes. I

458
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: didn't like him, and it just it went downhill from there.

459
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: He had Melissa climbing out the bedroom window and sneaking

460
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 4: out to go wherever he wanted to go.

461
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: They run away and ended up in Oklahoma.

462
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 4: The police told me that they caught him driving the

463
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 4: wrong way the interstate, doing one hundred and twenty miles

464
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 4: an hour with no lights on. He went off the

465
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 4: interstate and hit a bull. When they caught up with

466
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 4: him and laughed at him, he said, the only reason

467
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 4: you caught me because I ate that bull. So that's

468
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 4: the way he always looked at everything.

469
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: Right at the beginning, I am talking about Melissa's husband.

470
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: At the very beginning, he was nothing but trouble. What

471
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: about it, Norma.

472
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 12: He was troubled from day one, and the only reason

473
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 12: I let it.

474
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: My sister kept.

475
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 12: Telling me that I was fighting it too much. And

476
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 12: I need to let go and just let him have

477
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 12: a relationship.

478
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: And boy do I regret that today. You know, to

479
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen joining me, former fellow he prosecuted for years now,

480
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer at defense attorney, Darryl, did you hear

481
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: what tiny was at the beginning? She says? It was

482
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: a look in his eyes when I met him. I

483
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: could just see the meanness. And I know that that

484
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: is not evidence that it would be allowable in court.

485
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: I get it, that's totally inadmissible. And if it did

486
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: come into court, you, a great trial lawyer, would say

487
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: that means nothing. How can she tell he's got meanness

488
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: in his eyes? You would make hay it on that

489
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: you shred it across examination. But it's true, Darryl. Haven't

490
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: you been in the car, say, with your daughter, and

491
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: a guy walks up at the red light, and you

492
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: go and you lock all the doors. It's a feeling,

493
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: it's a gut feeling. It's after thousands of the years

494
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: of evolution. That's why the hair sticks up on the

495
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: back of your neck or you get chilled. You are

496
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: processing something that your brain doesn't understand. And she knew

497
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: day one this guy is trouble, Nancy.

498
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 7: It's not difficult to see that. Times we have a

499
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 7: gut reaction, and usually our gut reaction, the first one

500
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 7: is what we need to go with. But when you

501
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 7: see meanness in somebody's eyes, it's because sometimes you want

502
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 7: to see it. Sometimes he or she just looks evil,

503
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 7: and though it's not admissible, it's how we govern our lives.

504
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 7: It's how we see look at people and say their

505
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 7: body language, their facial expressions, in this case, the eyes

506
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 7: and in this case the eyes told everything. But that

507
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 7: doesn't mean mom or sister can stop it. It just

508
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 7: means you can make your daughter, your sister realize what's

509
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 7: going on. And please be aware. You can't change somebody.

510
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 7: You can't make them do what you want them to do.

511
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 7: Oh my gosh, Nancy, so many times I would love

512
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 7: to tell my daughters, this is what you do. You

513
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 7: know what they would do when I say that? The opposite?

514
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 5: And how would he risk taking a dead body out

515
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 5: of that house? Number one being unseen when you've got

516
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 5: a neighbor, literally your walls meet, and then drive a

517
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 5: dead body in a car, even if it is just

518
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 5: a short distance, and risk being caught. Then take that

519
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 5: body inside where you've got the privacy, where's all that

520
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 5: blood going. And then you've got to get rid of

521
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 5: that saul because there ain't no way to clean that thing.

522
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: And then you still have.

523
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 5: To take the body out of that place and dispose

524
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 5: of it.

525
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: And you just do it right there.

526
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 5: You don't even bother to take it away from where

527
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 5: you're tied.

528
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: To Cheryl McCollum. You and the family have led the

529
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: charge and seeking justice for Melissa. When you break it

530
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: down that way about what the killer would have to

531
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: go through in order to affect this crime, it makes

532
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: your blood run cold, Nancy.

533
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 3: It also is a flag again.

534
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 8: Who would take that amount of time?

535
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 3: Who would go get the.

536
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 15: Trash bags, get a circular saw, get the car ox around,

537
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 15: find a place the dispose of the body that is

538
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 15: great risk to the perpetrator.

539
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: And listen to more more from the letter from dad.

540
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 13: How do you kill the mother of your two children?

541
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 13: And then you look at those children in the eye

542
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 13: and say your mother deserted you because she didn't want you.

543
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 13: Then when it's proven this mother is dead and they

544
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 13: want us to visit the grave, you take them to

545
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 13: a different location. And claim someone must have moved her.

546
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: Oh my stars, did that really happen, Tina. Did the father,

547
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: the husband actually tell the children mommy deserted them and

548
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: take them to the wrong grave.

549
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: Yes, it is true.

550
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: He did what happened.

551
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 16: He just you know, every time their mom was he

552
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 16: would say, she ran off, she didn't want to be

553
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 16: here anymore, so she lived and I'll know where she is.

554
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: So the children grow up thinking, mom, he deserted them,

555
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: Is that right?

556
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: Yes, they did.

557
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: To normal patten, did you try to tell them differently?

558
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 12: We weren't allowed to see them. His mother had custody

559
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 12: of them, and she would not let us see them.

560
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 12: The last time she brought them anywhere around was when

561
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 12: she brought them to the cemetery when we buried Melissa,

562
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 12: And they did not even know that they were at

563
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 12: the why they were at the cemetery, or who it was.

564
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: Oh my stars, what a tragedy. So she's murdered, she's dismembered,

565
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: and her children are raised thinking mommy abandoned them. Well

566
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: in the last days, over twenty five years after Melissa's

567
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: dismembered body as found discovered just a block away from

568
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: where her then husband worked, an arrest has been made.

569
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum explained, you know, they put.

570
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 3: Together a solid, circumstantial case.

571
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 8: They went through statement, they went through maps, they went

572
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 8: through body disposal locations, and they narrowed this case down

573
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 8: to one person.

574
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 3: There wasn't a number one person. There was only one

575
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: valuable suspect in this case.

576
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: And that suspect then husband, Christopher Wolfenberger. To you, Nora Patten,

577
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 1: it took so long. It took years for the case

578
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: to be solved. What is your response to finally an arrest.

579
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 12: When I was told that he had been arrested, I

580
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 12: just yelled out as loud as I could, thank you, Bore.

581
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 12: Don't have a long way to go.

582
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: God willing. There will be justice delayed, Yes, delayed, But

583
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: in the end, the APD did put the case together.

584
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: By now, a cold, cold case. That's hard to do.

585
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: Just God, it's really hard to put together a cold case.

586
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: It's almost impossible. But they did it, and we finally

587
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: have an arrest. How has this affected you, this quest

588
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: we've all been on for so long.

589
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 11: Well for me, God bless them. I see the pain

590
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 11: in the family's eyes, and I've seen this look for

591
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 11: years and years as a death investigator, and it all

592
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 11: brings it flooding back to me now at this point

593
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 11: in my life. It's a touchstone moment, I think, for

594
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 11: them as a family, but it's also a moment in

595
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 11: time where where those of us that are training professionals

596
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 11: moving forward, look at the mistakes that were made along

597
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 11: the way. Where could we have turned a corner that

598
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 11: would have sent us down a different path and not

599
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 11: put the family through so much pain? I think is

600
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 11: what it comes down to. If we all do our

601
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 11: jobs in the beginning, then it's at that point in

602
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 11: time we can look back and understand that we could

603
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 11: save a lot of pain that these families go through.

604
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 11: Because Melissa is not a forgotten person, all right. She's

605
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 11: not just a number that's thrown away. She's a sister,

606
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 11: she's a mother, and she's somebody's baby. And that's what

607
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 11: you have to keep in mind moving forward with all

608
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 11: of this. I just thank God in Heaven right now

609
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 11: that there is some kind, some kind of resolution. It

610
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 11: might not be what we all wanted, but there is

611
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 11: a resolution that we can all grow from at this

612
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 11: point in time. I just hate that it's been done

613
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 11: at the expenses of these precious women.

614
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: Tina and Norman Patten. I just really don't have words

615
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: to thank you. You are an example for all other

616
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: crime victimist families because you never gave up, You never quit.

617
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: There were many times Cheryl and I and Joe Scott talked,

618
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: We talked about the case, and there were times I

619
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: thought there would never be a resolution, there would never

620
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: be an arrest, even though we all felt we knew

621
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: who was responsible for the murder. The damage to you

622
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: and to her children, but most important to her can

623
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 1: never be fixed. There is no fix. But what is

624
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: your message today to you, the mother of Melissa Wilsenberger,

625
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: What is your message to other crime victims, feens families today.

626
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 12: Don't give up, Get out there and talk to people,

627
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 12: anybody that you can. We went everywhere anybody had gave

628
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 12: us suggestions. We went, and we You just had to

629
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 12: stay on top of it.

630
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: You can't, you can't let it go. Tina. It was

631
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 1: all consuming your search for justice, your search to find

632
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: out what happened to your sister, and there could not

633
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: have been more bizarre facts thrown into this quest. What

634
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: is your message to other people listening today as we

635
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: await a formal announcement.

636
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 12: No matter what, no matter what happens, what you come across,

637
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 12: what other problems come up, do not take No.

638
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 16: You've got to push, and when it seems like you're

639
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 16: ready to.

640
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 1: Give up, keep pushing. Don't stop.

641
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 13: Stop.

642
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: If Tina and Norma Patten could keep going against all odds,

643
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: then so can we. Tina and Norma thank you. We

644
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: wait as God willing justice hunfals. Goodbye friend,