1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,439 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: Those two really were in love with one another, and that, 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: as we know, can make you do crazy things. 4 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 6 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 9 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 14 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: behind the stories. This episode isn't about a typical true 15 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: crime story. There's no murder, but there doesn't need to 16 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: be to make it a wild story. This is about manipulation, tragedy, 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: and obsession, lots of obsession. Author Michael Finkel documented it 18 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: in his book The Art Thief. Why do you think 19 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: this book became a New York Times bestseller? You know 20 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: this is not a traditional true crime book in that way? 21 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: What is it that attracts readers to it? Do you think? 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: I mean? Who doesn't go through a museum? Right? My 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: wife and I love to go to museums and we 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: will stop in front of a painting that we both 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: love and we sort of look at each other and 26 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: we're like, Oh, wouldn't that just look fantastic over the 27 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: couch or something like that. Breitweiser, Stephan Breitweiser, who is 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: the protagonist my book. He's the art thief if you 29 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: cut away all the moral decrepitude. He lived this sort 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: of amazing like dream life where he filled his bedroom 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: with an estimated two billion dollars worth of art just 32 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: to enjoy them. And who wouldn't be sort of interested 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: in knowing? More like, is this guy a bastard? Is 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: this guy a decent guy? Can I relate to him? 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: Or am I completely disgusted by his behavior? It opens 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: up a whole treaty of questions. 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: Well, what's interesting to me about Stefan is how much 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: his personal life plays into this. His mother and his girlfriend. Right, 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: do we start from childhood or his relationships? Where does 40 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: it make the most sense to give us context to 41 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: how he ended up doing what he did. 42 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: Breitweiser, Stefan the art Thief, was born in nineteen seventy one, 43 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: so all of everything we're about to talk about it 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: is not only true, it's fairly current. He's French, grew 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: up in the Alisaus region, which is where France, Switzerland 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: and Germany sort of meet, had a pretty well did 47 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: you upbringing. His parents divorced when he was a teenager. 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: Father left the family, The mother, after the divorce settlement, 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: bought this tiny little house in the suburbs of a 50 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: kind of a not the prettiest of French cities, a 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: town called Mulouse, and Breitweiser and his girlfriend moved into 52 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: the attic of his mother's house. These two Stefan and 53 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: An Catherine, people that were in their young twenties when 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: they started. They stole more art at a quicker pace 55 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: than really has ever been recorded. Breitwiser was like a 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: little bit of a little bit of a delinquent, a 57 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: couple of shoplifting episodes in his youth, always sort of 58 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: a loner, a difficult child according to both of his parents, 59 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 2: and then a person according to all those who knew 60 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: him as a kid that was always obsessed with objects 61 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: and collecting. Liked objects more than people, found beauty not 62 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: in others, but in pieces of art that appealed to him. 63 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: Did he have a good dynamic with his mother when 64 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: he's in his twenties or does he continue to be 65 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: difficult as he gets older? 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 2: Oh, mother son relationships swear? Do we even start? So? 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: I spent eleven years on this project to write a 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: very short book. As a matter of fact, one of 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: the advantages of spending a lot of time is that 70 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to build up a lot of trust. 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: And I reached such a level of trust with Stefan 72 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: Breitweiser that he actually gave me signed written permission to 73 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: read his psychology reports. So I did get a lot 74 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: of insight into what was going on. So there's basically 75 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 2: a triangle here, right, Wiser, his girlfriend A'm Catherine, and 76 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: his mother, And remember he and his girlfriend lived in 77 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: his mother's house. Breitweiser was a full time art thief. 78 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: He committed over two hundred separate heists for three hundred 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: works of art. But I mentioned that he didn't sell them, so, 80 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: in other words, he might have been a full time artief, 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: but really, that's just a very kind way of saying. 82 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: He was an unemployed freeloader. He lived in his mother's basement, 83 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: didn't even pay rent, and lied to his mother about 84 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: where he was acquiring all this art, said, you know 85 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 2: these are from yard sales or they're knockoffs. I just 86 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: want to make the attic look beautiful. And at first 87 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: I believe the mother believes it. But soon the whole 88 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: triangle is involved in these thefts, and as things get 89 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: crazier and crazier and this sort of inevitable breaking. 90 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: Point, when does this all begin? What year are we 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: talking about, sometime in the nineties, and where does he 92 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: get the balls to make this first heist. 93 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: Of his So it starts in nineteen ninety four. Breitweiser 94 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: graduated from high school I believe in ninety one, so 95 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 2: he was about twenty years old when he started. A 96 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: couple things you should probably know before we get into, 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: like how does someone get away with not just one 98 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: to ten twenty fifty, but two hundred different heights? Like 99 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: what kind of a master thief is this person? Or 100 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: how did he do it? The start was really a 101 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 2: few pieces of background. One one of Breitweiser's first jobs 102 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: out of high school was as a museum security guard, 103 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: and I mentioned how much he loved looking at works 104 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: of art that appealed to him. And he quit this 105 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 2: job after about a month, but really learn firsthand in 106 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: a way that would be almost impossible through just observation, 107 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: how security works in the museum, what are the limits 108 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 2: of human observation, how do those cameras work, what's going on? 109 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: And he also worked another job in a high quality 110 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 2: art framing shop, ostensibly learning how to put frames on 111 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: valuable paintings, but really learning how to take them off. 112 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: After his father leaves, how his father inherited this wonderful 113 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 2: collection of oil paintings, ivories, antique weapons, watches, things like that. 114 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: After the divorce, the father gread inherited this took everything 115 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: with him, and Breitweiser felt this acute, even though he 116 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: was a teenager at the time, not just the sense 117 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: of abandonment, but really missed these inanimate objects and pretty 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: much the father leaves, the girlfriend enters the scene. They 119 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: move into the mother's attic, and Catherine also has this 120 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: like aesthetic eye. He Breitweiser spoke so lovingly of his 121 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: girlfriend she was the one who sort of guided his 122 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: love of art. The first piece they stole, they're walking 123 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 2: through a small town museum. Now a lot of the 124 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: museums Breitweiser stole from where these little local museums that 125 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: are dotted all over Europe, though he also stole from 126 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: huge museums almost the size of the Louver, as well 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: as auctions and art galleries. But really mostly his main 128 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: source of acquisition, shall we say, was from these small 129 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: museums that are poorly guarded and have amazing works of art, 130 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: but usually not the high tech security at a place 131 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: like the Louver House. He sees this antique pistol in 132 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: a display case in a small town museum, immediately thinks 133 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: of the collection that his father had taken from him, 134 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: and he says, oh my gosh, this reminds me of 135 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: something my father had, except a heck of a lot nicer, 136 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: a ton more valuable. And this is like the thing 137 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: that one of the things I miss most that used 138 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: to be in my house. And his girlfriend and Katherine 139 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: basically looks at our boyfriend Steffan and says, we'll take it. 140 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: I mean again, I'm telling you, this is a small 141 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: town museum. They didn't even have a lock on the 142 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: display case in this place. He basically slides it open. 143 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: He's wearing his school backpack, puts this beautiful antique pistol 144 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: in this backpack, and they run out of the museum, 145 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: which he soon realized was probably a bad idea. Anybody 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: running out of the museum that's now missing an item, 147 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: it's pretty suspicious. They were panicked, and now it was 148 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: sort of like a dare or a spontaneous moment of craziness. 149 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: They're driving back to their apartment and thinking we're going 150 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: to hear sirens at any minute. This is like the 151 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: dumbest thing ever. They get home, they're like, do we 152 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: just return at the museum? We throw it out the window? 153 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: What do we do? And they like wait a few days. 154 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: They're looking at all the newspapers. They're like, why haven't 155 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: the police come? Is that? Could we really have gotten 156 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 2: away with that? Is that even possible? And this panic 157 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: sort of fades into maybe like acceptance, and then this 158 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: like sense of elation and thrill starts going on. They 159 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: have this amazing pistol in their attic chamber and they're like, 160 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: let's take something else and you know, we got a 161 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: lot of blank walls around us. Let's see what we 162 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 2: could do about it. And from there and Katherine and 163 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:47,359 Speaker 2: Klin Class and Stefan Breitweiser embark on this ridiculous, extraordinary, 164 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: illegal mission. 165 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: It doesn't cross their minds that this would be good 166 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: to sell luck on the black market somewhere. They literally 167 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: have no intention of selling anything that comes later on. 168 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: Just every real art thief, literally, like ninety nine point 169 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: nine nine percent less than one in a thousand art 170 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: thieves care at all about art. If if you're gonna 171 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: name any famous art crime, it probably the Isabella Stewart 172 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: Gardner Museum in Boston. By the way, it's unsolved from 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety, more than thirty years ago. Those guys not 174 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: only came in the night, attacked the night guards, bound 175 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: their faces with duct tape, handcuff from the pipes in 176 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 2: the basement. Already right, Wiser never used violence, or so 177 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 2: much as the threat of violence to steal. But really, 178 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: what these Gardner thieves did next is what Breitwiser hated most. Ball. 179 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: They took a knife and they stuck it into a 180 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: Rembrandt oil painting and cut the painting out with a knife. Basically, 181 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: even if this painting has ever found, it will never 182 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: be whole. Brightwiser, unlike almost every other art thief, stole 183 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: because he loved these works and had these whack of 184 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: doodle ideas about museums being prisons for art. Rightwiser described 185 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: to me precisely what he wanted to do in front 186 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: of work of art that just tickled all of his 187 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: esthetic nerve endings. The first thing you want to do 188 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 2: when you're seeing a work of art is sit in 189 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 2: a very comfortable chair. Already, museums don't have like sofas. 190 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: I mean, I would like to drink a glass of wine. 191 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: You sort of want to run your fingers along the 192 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: edge of it to feel the ridges of the paint. 193 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: If you tried to do any of these things in 194 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: the museum, I think they would frown upon it. So really, 195 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: there are dedicated police forces in twenty different countries, including 196 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: the United States, which has the FBI's Art Crime Team, 197 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 2: twenty full time officers who are researching art in antiquities crime. 198 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: But almost all the arrests are made when the thief 199 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: tries to monetize the work, tries to sell it. That 200 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: is the weak spot. When the art changes hands. It's 201 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 2: not necessarily taking out of the museum, which is difficult 202 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: onto itself. But museums, if you've been in them, you 203 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: know those security guards are often senior citizens. They're not armed. 204 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 2: That's not the hard part. The hard part is monetizing it. 205 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: And by not even being interested in selling anything right 206 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: wise was able to get away with things far long 207 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: than almost anybody could ever imagine. 208 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: So we have the pistol. What happens next. Does he 209 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: make us switch to paintings at some point or do 210 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: we have more weaponry from the past first, So the. 211 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: Whole emotional rollercoaster from panic that they're about to be 212 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: arrested to confidence that they should steal something else took 213 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: nine months, which both seems like a long time and 214 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: it is, and most are thieves steal once twice three 215 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: times in a career. But nine months later they go 216 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: to another museum, this one in a beautiful castle in Switzerland, 217 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: and they take a crossbow, which, by the way, is 218 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 2: a very large item, and in fact, you had to 219 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: work it out of a window and drop it into 220 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: these bushes and go around the outside of the museum 221 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: and collect it. Yeah, so the crossbow. Nine months later, 222 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: again sort of go through the whole cycle of panic, 223 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: are we going to get caught? Oh my gosh, this 224 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: is great hanging on the wall. I'm in ecstasy, hop 225 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: into the four poster bed, and then think we need 226 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: something else. And this time, this time, it was just 227 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: a couple of months and then they yes, like you mentioned, 228 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: they go to another museum in Swissend they finally steal 229 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: a beautiful oil or trip from the seventeenth century, worth 230 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: millions of dollars. Not that Breitweisers particularly cares about the price. 231 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: He really cared about the esthetic reaction. I've been in 232 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 2: museums with Brightweiser. Part of the time we spent together, 233 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 2: and we spent lots of time together after trust was 234 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 2: built up. You know, I saw that Brightwiser would go 235 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 2: by ninety nine different paintings and just sort of nod 236 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: and be laconic, and then he'd see something that he 237 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: really loved in his entire mien, his entire attitude would change, 238 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: his eyes would go wide open. He even described it 239 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: to me as like an electric current was completed between 240 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: him and the art. So they steal this painting. One 241 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: of the reasons why the gardener thieves cut the canvas 242 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: out of the rembrands they stole. Is that paint frames 243 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 2: make it very unwieldy to steal a painting, like how 244 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: do you walk out of a museum with us ending 245 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: on a frame? So this is why Breightwiser would detach 246 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 2: the frame. Almost all the paintings he stole were say 247 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: the size of a pizza box or smaller. They could 248 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 2: fit on the small at the small of his back. 249 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: He liked to steal in cooler weather. He would wear 250 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: a long overcoat and he would cover it. He would 251 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: be very careful to protect the painting from scratches, warbage, dust, 252 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: anything like that. So after stealing this painting, it was 253 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: like a new level of euphoria in the attic room. 254 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 2: And then Brightwiser and Anne Catherine after that, it's like 255 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: without any sort of like practice or just pure happenstance, 256 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: they became an unstoppable criminal team and for the next 257 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: eight years they averaged one art theft every twelve days, 258 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: which is an unimaginably fast pace and by some estimates, 259 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: the value by the end of the incredible crime spree, 260 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 2: the amount of art that was all over the walls 261 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 2: of their attic chamber was more than two billion dollars 262 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: worth of art. 263 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: So what does mom think about all this? She's obviously 264 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: been up there is there some sort of evolution in 265 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,080 Speaker 1: the way his mom thought about what was going on 266 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: with Stefan and his girlfriend. 267 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: Yes, at first I think the mom believes her son's lies, 268 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: that these are just flea market finds, then gets a 269 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: little bit suspicious, and then after a certain amount of time, 270 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: realizes what's going on as much as she wishes that, 271 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: you know, this wasn't the case. And then she's in 272 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: a real bind. This is her only child, She's now complicit. 273 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: There's a pile of stolen goods. What's going to happen 274 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 2: if the police come in? So I believe that the 275 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: mother until the very end was torn between basically having 276 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: her throwing her son in prison for who knows how 277 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: long could be extremely long time, and protecting him. And 278 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: I feel sort of as a parent myself to three kids, 279 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: I feel very much the agony or the anxiousness that 280 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: this poor mother had to go through, like deciding like 281 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: you want to tell your son quit, you got to 282 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: stop this, you got to return this, you know. I 283 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: feel like the only people that really knew Brightwiser while 284 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: he was thieving was his girlfriend, his mother, and his 285 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: mother's parents, his maternal grandparents, and all of them sort 286 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: of knew what he was doing. And bizarrely, there was 287 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: no parental figure here. Bizarrely, nobody really pulled him aside 288 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: and said, hey, this is not the way an adult acts. 289 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 2: You are not allowed to do this. They were all 290 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: sort of overwhelmed with this guy's esthetic sensibility or his 291 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: just pure bratishness. But there was this weird enabling that 292 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: was going on. 293 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: What are we talking about in the nineties in France, 294 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: what would the penalty have been? Do you have any idea? 295 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: I mean how long? How many years? 296 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: This would have been Until very recently, and some of 297 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: some international laws have changed because of Stefan Breitweiser. Until 298 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: very recently, the method you used for stealing was more 299 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: important than what you stole. For example, I mentioned that 300 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: Breitweiser stole during the day without violence. He got into 301 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: museums the same way we do, by buying a ticket. 302 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: He paid for his and cash didn't want his credit 303 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: card down. He would literally take paintings off the wall, 304 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: remove the frame, leave the empty frame, as his calling card, 305 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 2: walk out with it under his back, very carefully, very controlled. 306 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: You know. Sometimes the police would literally be running in 307 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: while he was walking out, and he always had this 308 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: very air of casual and he would be holding hands 309 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: with his girlfriend. He didn't seem suspicious. And to steal 310 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: things from display cases rather than being like a master 311 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 2: lock picker, he's simply His only tool that he used 312 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: was a Swiss army knife, and he would if you're 313 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: following me here, he would take the sharpest blade of 314 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: his Swiss army knife. And if you picture a display 315 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 2: case in the museum, usually like a big plexiglass cube, 316 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: and have his little sliding door that's well locked to 317 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: get things in and out. But he would just go 318 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: to where there was a seam between two panels, and 319 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: these are usually glued with silicon glue, and he would 320 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: go to a corner of this box and he would 321 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: just use this knife to slice the silicon glue vertically 322 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: horizontally and on the third dimension and peel the panels apart. 323 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: If you're following me, just sort of separate the panels 324 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: by cutting the seal, peel them apart, slide his hand through, 325 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 2: take what he wanted and then push the panels back together, 326 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: and that's the way they want to be forced back together. 327 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: And he would sometimes then move around the other things 328 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: in the display box because he wanted it to seem untouched. 329 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: He knows from working as a security guard. The security 330 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: guard just sort of scan the rooms and if there's 331 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: not an obvious blank spot, they're not counting, Oh there's 332 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: eleven objects in there, there's only ten. Now they're just 333 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: looking no big blank spot, no black spot on the wall, 334 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 2: and onto the next room and he would just push 335 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 2: the box back together. It would just remain that way. 336 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: The lock has never been touched. And he has the say, 337 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: a beautiful ivory carving at the smallestpacony walks out. 338 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: So there is no your singular painting that you're looking, 339 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, on the wall, and all of a sudden, 340 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: there's nothing in the frame that you would notice. He's 341 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: doing it strategically where there are other things in the case, 342 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: and you would have to know the inventory to know 343 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: something's missing. And did they not have curators walking around 344 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: at the same time. 345 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: Now, Sometimes when he stole a very prestigious item or 346 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: a painting from like literally he stole some from like 347 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: the entrance rooms to museum, like the most spectacular painting 348 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: in a museum. Once or twice this was noticed within minutes, 349 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 2: off in seconds. But sometimes he calculated it'd only take them, 350 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 2: for example, twenty seconds to walk out a door. And 351 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: he was very wise about spotting every security camera and 352 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 2: sort of had this innate knowledge about where the lens 353 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 2: would record him, and he was able to skirt this 354 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 2: I'm talking for years, just walk out carefully. Other times 355 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: this is even more absurd and yet also true. Bytherwiseer, 356 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: I had this thought that whatever an art thief would 357 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 2: never do is something that he should consider doing. For example, 358 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: he would take a painting off a wall, or an 359 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 2: item that he could hide at the small of his 360 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 2: back or sometimes in an Catherine his girlfriend's purse, and 361 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: when the police would be coming within seconds and maybe 362 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: the museum locked down. More than once, stefan And and Katherine 363 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: went to the museum cafe with the stolen object on 364 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: them and casually got themselves some lunch. Now that seems 365 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 2: like the most absurd thing to do after an art crime, 366 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 2: but just think about this. The police are running in 367 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: the last people they are going to suspect have a 368 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: stolen object of the ones casually eating lunch in the cafe, 369 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: they're going to run right by them. And it was 370 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: sort of this ability to subvert expectations, this sort of 371 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: san foi cold bloodedness, this way to appear calm at 372 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: all times, to make these lightning fast strikes where people 373 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 2: sometimes he stole walk literally where guards or other tourists 374 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: were in the room. He could take it. He could 375 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: put it under his jacket and walk out so casually 376 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: that nobody noticed for enough time for him to either 377 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: go to the museum cafe, walk out the door and 378 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: onto the streets. Anyway, because he did this non violently. 379 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: If you steal a chocolate bar with a gun, in 380 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: the eyes of the law, until very very recently, that 381 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: seemed like a worse thing to do than stealing the 382 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 2: mona Lisa without using violence. It was it wasn't the value, 383 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: and you could sort of see that it wasn't the 384 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,959 Speaker 2: value of the thing you stole. It was the methodology. 385 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: And so and again they've now started doing these sort 386 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: of like cultural Treasure's laws. But this was like back 387 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: in the you know, in the late nineties and early 388 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: two thousands, so bright Wiser even after he's eventually caught, 389 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: does not get punished in any remotely any sort of 390 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: punitive fashion that you would think would be just just 391 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: like four years in prison. And he gets out, and 392 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 2: what's the first thing he does when he gets out? 393 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: He immediately starts stealing art again. 394 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: Now I want to know what this psychological evaluation was, 395 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: what it revealed that he allowed you to look at. 396 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: Is there a diagnosis that sounds to me like, because 397 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: I write a lot in the eighteen hundreds, it sounds 398 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: like monomania is what they would call it. The obsession 399 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: is that sort of what people are saying was going 400 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: on with him. 401 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: So I got to see a couple of full reports 402 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: and at least excerpts from five different psychologists, and psychologists 403 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: struggled to say what is exactly wrong with him? I mean, 404 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: it might be easy to shout kleptomaniac, and he didn't 405 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 2: at all fit the de finistion of kleptomania, which is 406 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: someone who really likes to steal, doesn't really care about 407 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: what they steal. And the hallmark of kleptomania is after 408 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: you've stolen something, it's always followed by a letdown, steeped 409 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: in like shame and regret. You're sort of ashamed about 410 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: your obsession. Well, Brightwahers is completely the opposite. He cared 411 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 2: very much about what he stole, He never felt any 412 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: guilt about it, and he exalted and celebrated his crimes 413 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 2: rather than felt guilty. So there was no great diagnosis 414 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: except for this sort of theory by a couple of 415 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: psychologists that temptation, something about Brightwisher's inability to control this 416 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: temptation like maybe a drug addict who knows that they 417 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing more but can't stop it, like an addiction, 418 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 2: And it was sort of that level. If you know 419 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 2: any collectors, there is that sort of sense of addiction. 420 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: And this is not just a collector, but a collector 421 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: who has extraordinarily competent skills of beaving things from museums. 422 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: So you know, he told me because of people like 423 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: the Isabella Stuart Gardner thieves, that he did not like 424 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: to be called an art thief, though he never denied 425 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: a single one of his crimes. Who went over all 426 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 2: two hundred of his crimes piece by piece, and I 427 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: double checked it with police reports and reconfirmed every time 428 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 2: that there was a disagreement between the police report and 429 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: his report, and we would sort of sort of fill 430 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 2: in the blanks. But he never felt guilty, never felt 431 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: like he had enough that he always sensed this, like 432 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: any true collector, that he must have more. He didn't 433 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 2: want to be called an art thief. He really liked 434 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 2: to be called an art collector, perhaps with an unorthodox 435 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: acquisition style, but really he felt himself like a collector. 436 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: Well, paint the scene for me. We've got this attic 437 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: that's full of about three hundred you said, different pieces 438 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: right over this eight year period. What I am curious 439 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: about is how two people come together. You know, you 440 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: have one who has this obsession. Does on Catherine take 441 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: it on or is there part of her personality that 442 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: could have predicted that she would be an accomplice or 443 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: even an instigator to all of this. It just seems 444 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: unlikely to have two people with this level of obsession 445 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: over artwork. 446 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 2: I think you completely correct. It's not just unlikely, it's 447 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 2: perhaps historically unprecedented. Poor On Katherine, she falls in love 448 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: with a thief, she liked these pieces of art. She 449 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: wasn't She didn't have this crazy obsession like her boyfriend did. 450 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 2: But I also think that there was this sort of 451 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: frision of oh, you know, there's the thrill of the crime, 452 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: the Bonnie and Clyde. But after a while, after a 453 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: couple of crimes, after a dozen crimes, and Katherine already 454 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: was like, what's the end game here? Like, what do 455 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: you do? The police are not going to like stop 456 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 2: looking for you after a couple of weeks, because you have, 457 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: you know, you have so much stuff. So like she 458 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: started getting logically increasingly panicked, like what do we do here? 459 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: What did I get myself into? And even if she 460 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 2: left right wiser behind, suddenly she's still an accomplice. So 461 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: it all dawns on her that what may have started 462 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: out as a sort of crazily daring Bonnie and Clyde 463 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: ish Chahn becomes all too real where I'm Katherine. She 464 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: at first is like, hey, man, let's cool this down, 465 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: let's not steal so much, let's wear gloves. He didn't 466 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 2: even wear gloves. And the problem is, at the same 467 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: time that a Katherine with every theft and Catherine keeps 468 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: getting more and more and more nervous thinking they're about 469 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: to get caught, the exact opposite is happening with Stephan 470 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: Brightways or her boyfriend. He's getting more and more confident. 471 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: It's like, oh my god, this is so easy. I 472 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 2: can steal bigger pieces, more often from more heavily protected museums, 473 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 2: and so you know there's inevitably going to be a 474 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: fissure in the relationship. 475 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: Well what ends up happening. So she is growing more nervous, 476 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: he is becoming more emboldened. The mother is trying to 477 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: avoid it. Sounds like all of this and pretending like 478 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: it's not happening, And any moment the police in France 479 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: could come knocking on the door and say, we've followed you, 480 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: somebody spotted you, we can identify you. What is the 481 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: breaking point for all of this? Is it one particular 482 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: piece of art or is it Katherine probably just having 483 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: a big breakdown over it. 484 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: So obviously the pressure is building. Breitwiser keeps coming home 485 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: with more art, and Katherine eventually is like, you know what, 486 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 2: I really don't want to be a part of this anymore. 487 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: But she wants to leave him, but she's also in 488 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: love with him, so everything is you know. The mother, 489 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: of course, can only bury her head in the sand 490 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: for so long, so you can really, I can imagine 491 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 2: this sort of everything coming to a boil. Finally, and 492 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 2: Catherine makes like these rules to contain her boyfriend. And 493 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: one of the rules and Katherine worked a part time 494 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: as a nurse's assistant in a hospital, and she brings 495 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: home these surgical gloves and she's like, that's it. You 496 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: have to start wearing surgical gloves from now on. He 497 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 2: just like leaving fingers at prints everywhere. She's just like, 498 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: she knows she can't stop her boyfriend. She knows she's 499 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: like kind of attached to him by the binds of 500 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 2: criminal bonds and also this ridiculously unhealthy but undeniable love affair. 501 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: So she says, you must wear gloves. I'm not going 502 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: to join you. I'm not even going to service. Lookout, 503 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 2: Please don't steal anymore. But she knows that he can't 504 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: help herself. He comes home with this amazing bugle, old 505 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 2: plated owned by Wagner the composer, like this historical amazing bugle, 506 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: and he starts telling his girlfriend, who comes home from 507 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: her job at the hospital, this stylish crime where he 508 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: had to climb on a radiator and hook unhook these 509 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: knots tying the bugle to the ceiling and sort of 510 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: leap down and couch a very stylis acrobatic athletic theft 511 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: by Breitweiser, who's a skinny, short, sort of whippity guy 512 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 2: that both used his mind and his sort of gymnastic 513 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 2: like physique to steal things in incredibly ways that I 514 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 2: tried to document a couple dozen of them in the book. Well, 515 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 2: the only question An Catherrine has he doesn't really care 516 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: about the stylist, that they've already stolen two other bugles before. 517 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't need anything else. The room is full, 518 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: they're living in, you know, the most amazing thing anymore, 519 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, tipping over into Junkyard rather 520 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: than in the room of the louver. She says just 521 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 2: one question to him, did you wear those gloves? And 522 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: she could tell immediately by the look on his face. 523 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 2: He's like, oh, honey, honey, I'm so sorry. I needed 524 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 2: apps dexterity, and she is infuriated, and it's sort of 525 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 2: like this little breaking point where she's like, the one 526 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: fing thing I asked you to do he didn't do, 527 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: and she's getting furious and bright Weiser's like, I'll make 528 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: it good. I'll make it good. I'll drive back to 529 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 2: the museum and erase my prince. She's like, let's go 530 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: together and erase the prince. So they drive back to 531 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: the museum from which he had just stolen a beautiful bugle. 532 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: The one time in Breitweiser's life, literally that he had 533 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: no intention of stealing, just wanted to cover up the 534 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: tracks of his crime. The one time he's going back 535 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: to the seat of a crime, the person who's working 536 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: the front desk notices that this is the same guy 537 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: in the jacket that just stole the freaking bugil is back, 538 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: and it is this moment this chin to appease his 539 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: It's just girlfriend's fault, you know, trying to appease his girlfriend, 540 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 2: going back to the scene of a crime that causes 541 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: his arrest. But most fascinatingly, when the police arrests Breitweiser, 542 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: they did not know that he was with his girlfriend 543 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 2: and three and he's not arrested. She gets away, and 544 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: so there's this moment where Breitweiser is cuffed hands behind 545 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: his back and he realizes that the police don't know 546 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 2: about I'm Catherine, and he looks up at her and 547 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: she looks up at him. They're both like, have this 548 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: crazy panic look on his face. And that's the last 549 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: time he sees his girlfriend for years. 550 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 1: Wow. 551 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 2: So Bridbrush gets arrested. He is completely making contact with 552 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: his girlfriend or his mother. His greatest fear, of course, 553 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: is that the police are going to come into his 554 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: house and go up into the attic, and so like 555 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: he's trying to make up these stories. It's the only 556 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: thing I ever stole. He admits to stealing the bugle. 557 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 2: He's like, I'll bring it back to you unharmed. And 558 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: he's like writing these letters to his mother and his girlfriend, 559 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: like please bring that bugle back. You know it's in 560 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: the basement. Wink wink. You know he doesn't want him 561 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 2: to say that it's in the attic. He doesn't hear 562 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 2: any response. He's being held by the police in Switzerland 563 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: where he stole the bugle, under restrictive custody. He's increasingly panicked. 564 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: He he knows that, you know, the world is about 565 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: to end. It takes the Swiss police about three weeks. 566 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 2: That's a long time to be in jail without having 567 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: any information to get an international search warrant. Two Swiss 568 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 2: police officers join up with two French police officers. They 569 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: go to the mother's house in the suburbs of Mulus, 570 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: knock on the door. They have a search warrant, so 571 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: the mother has no option but to let the officers in. 572 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: They walk up this narrow stairway. There's a doorway to 573 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 2: the attic, and they open the doorway to the attic 574 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: and inside is nothing. A four poster bed and blank walls, 575 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: not so much as a picture hook. They look like 576 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: they've been freshly painted, and everything is gone. 577 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: So the police go in and there's three weeks to 578 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: cover all of this up. Is there now a collusion 579 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: or what's happening? Who is implicated in all of this 580 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: at this point? 581 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, so Bredwiser's you know, he's arrested, he's held 582 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: in jail. What design Catherine do? She gets into their 583 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: car that they had just driven to the museum to 584 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 2: try and erase the fingerprints. So what does Don Cathrine do? 585 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 2: She presumably drives back to the mother's house and says 586 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: to the mother, Uh, you know, all that stuff in 587 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: the room, every bit of it is stolen. Now while 588 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: breit Weiser's in jail. The whole story that you've read 589 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 2: up to the changes in which the girlfriend who is 590 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,239 Speaker 2: sort of this first willing and then unwilling and then 591 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: sort of a victim of like you can almost call 592 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: it emotional abuse from her boyfriend, and then the mother, 593 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: who is seemingly like sort of trapped. The two women 594 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: eventually take matters into their own hands and become almost 595 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: the like the second half of the book's real criminals. 596 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 2: While Breitwiser's locked up, these two come up with their 597 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: own scheme, and that's why the attic is empty, and like, 598 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: what happens to three hundred works of art worth two 599 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: billion dollars? Where did they all go? And that's sort 600 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 2: of that's sort of where the story speeds to. 601 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: But what is the manipulation that we're talking about? What 602 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: is Stefon trying to do in Switzerland to influence any 603 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: of this from happening? You mentioned emotional abuse, which seems 604 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: like a huge jump from this sort of charming thief. 605 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: We're going to have sex in front of some Renaissance 606 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: paintings to somebody who obviously is trying to save his 607 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: own skin. What was that transition like for on Catherine 608 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: and for the mother, I. 609 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: Mean, I know that on Cathrine wanted there to be 610 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: like some sort of ending to the crime spree, and 611 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 2: I suppose the mother did too, and whether that's the 612 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: one they planned, that's the one they got now that 613 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 2: Brightwater was in prison. So bright what he was doing 614 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: on his end was begging one of his either his 615 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: girlfriend or his mother, to just bring this stolen piece back, 616 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: show the Swiss authorities that this is he made a mistake. 617 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 2: He stole this bugle, but here it is in perfect condition. 618 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: I've returned it, you know, give me a month or 619 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: two in jail. Don't go searching through my house. You 620 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: know I've returned, but I've stolen. You know, you have 621 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: no other proof. That was his sort of desperate hope, 622 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: and I think the hope of the two women was like, 623 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, we're all about to be imprisoned because 624 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: of what my boyfriend slash or my son did. So 625 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: there's a little bit of panic, I believe going on 626 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 2: in the house. And rather the smartest thing in the 627 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 2: world would be to let the police come give them 628 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: all the works of art back so they could be 629 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 2: returned to museums. They're all were kept in beautiful shape 630 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: with a few minor exceptions, neither of the women would 631 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 2: have gotten into severe trouble if they had just returned 632 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: everything that they did the exact opposite of that. 633 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: And what do you think that was? I mean, what 634 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: led to that change? Where he was the one driving 635 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: all of the emotion behind this. Why do you think 636 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: that they went against him and made this sort of 637 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: independent decision which we can all guess what was kind 638 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: of what road we're going down here? Why did they 639 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: not think that his plan was the better plan than 640 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: what they decided. 641 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: I don't think Brightweiser had a plan at all for 642 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: getting caught. I think that he thought he was invincible. 643 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 2: You know, at first the police figured, oh my goodness, 644 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: you know, they obviously had this else safe plan in place. 645 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: Breit Wiser knows the art thief that's in prison, he 646 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 2: knows where all this art went. Had this you know, Oh, 647 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: if I get caught, you hide it here and we'll 648 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: get it later and we'll do this. That's what they thought. 649 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: But in truth, bright Weiser had no idea what happened. 650 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: He was as shocked as anyone. This is also again 651 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 2: proven to be true when he finds out that the 652 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: attic is empty. He doesn't know where his sixty nine 653 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: paintings are, his one hundred pieces of silver as either, 654 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: he has no idea. I think the women were tired 655 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: of this rat in their lives, and I think there 656 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: was a measure of relief when Breitwiser got arrested. I 657 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: know for a fact that an Katherine wanted she needed 658 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 2: to figure out how to wait to get out of this, 659 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: and did that the trial and Katherine manages to make 660 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: an amazing escape. She says that she really never helped 661 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: out with the crimes. She didn't even know that he 662 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 2: was stealing. She know there are videos here, there's video 663 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 2: evidence that showing the exact opposite. There's home videos of 664 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: her lounging in the four poster in the room saying, 665 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: you know, this is my kingdom filled with stolen art. 666 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: There's like videos of them. But yet none of these 667 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: videos were shown during the trial. Like I said, I 668 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: worked on this for more than a decade. Took it 669 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: took years to unearth these these home videos, they weren't 670 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 2: shown at the trial. And Catherine portrays herself as someone who, oh, 671 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: I didn't even know he was stealing. He was just 672 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 2: bringing home these works of art and bride. Weiser, to 673 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: his credit, wanting to like still in love with his girlfriend, 674 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 2: says oh yeah, yeah, she didn't know it was all 675 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 2: me and sort of protects her. She gets off and 676 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 2: he is the one who's in prison. So it's sort 677 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 2: of this very weird sort of switching of positions. 678 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: So we don't want to ruin exactly what on Catherine 679 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: and Stefan's mother do, but it sounds like eventually this 680 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: all comes to a head. They get caught and he 681 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: goes on trial, and you said that he essentially covers 682 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: up for her and she gets to vanish into the night. 683 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 2: Exactly that brid Wes is the one who goes to jail. 684 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 2: The mother actually served a minor a jail sentence. I'm 685 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: Katherine one night in jail. But again I'll fill in 686 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: some more details because it'll help sort of enlighten so 687 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 2: bright Weiss. By the time he comes to trial in France, 688 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: first he's tried in Switzerland, spends a year in jail 689 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: waiting for his French trial to start. This is the 690 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: trial in which so bright Wester has tried by himself 691 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: in Switzerland. Then he's tried with his mother and his 692 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: girlfriend in France and he's defending his girlfriend the entire time. 693 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 2: She didn't know she was using the bathroom when I 694 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 2: stole that, or even once in a while she told 695 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 2: me not to do it, and I ignored her. And 696 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: she's going along with all of Breitweiser's testimonies to the police. 697 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 2: It's all me, it's all me, but I believe that. 698 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 2: I mean. The proof that she was thrilled to be 699 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 2: out of this relationship is when he finally is released, 700 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: not released. He's transported in a prison van. He's released 701 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: from Switzerland, but he's immediately brought put in jail in 702 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: France awaiting his trial, where he's going to serve the 703 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,439 Speaker 2: rest of his Swiss term plus his French term. After 704 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 2: defending his girlfriend, I'm Katherine walks in and she's got 705 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 2: a baby with somebody else. She starts a family, which 706 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 2: she'd always wanted to do, and breit Weiser sees this 707 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: and had no idea and tries to take back at 708 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: his own trial at the last minute, like no, all 709 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: this testimony and then is completely like caught, the truth 710 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: suddenly makes no difference in its all emotion to the fore. 711 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: Eventually he sort of acquiesces, and Catherine gets off. The 712 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: mother serves the light sentence, he serves a longer sentence, 713 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: and is finally released, a penniless to move back in 714 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:29,399 Speaker 2: with his mother. 715 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, she took him back. Huh. 716 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: The poor mother doesn't even know what to do. And 717 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 2: as I, as I hinted earlier, realizes that first of all, 718 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 2: somebody with a criminal record that has no job experience 719 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: isn't about to find a decent paying job. In fact, 720 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 2: like he finds like the worst jobs and manner imaginable, 721 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 2: like cleaning restaurant toilets on a Sunday. Like he's completely depressed, 722 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 2: and he realizes almost being free was in some ways 723 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 2: worse than being in prison. When he was in prison, 724 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 2: he had no choice. It was just ugliness all around him. 725 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 2: Now he's free and he does these blank wall without 726 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: any works of art on it and no money, no 727 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: means to get it, and he's like, all he wants 728 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: to do is look at something beautiful. And he sort 729 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 2: of has this mental tug of war between realizing that 730 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 2: he just got out of jail and that he's only 731 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: good at one thing, and only one thing makes him 732 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 2: really happy. You know, women, friends, nobody can be trusted. 733 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: Everybody will stab you in the back of the end, 734 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: but painting, a beautiful painting will never, never, never let 735 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 2: you down. And he goes and steals something else in 736 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: the whole cycle, gains again, and it's like he's not 737 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 2: doing it for money, but just for this aesthetic fulfillment, 738 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 2: which makes some sense, no sense. But anybody who has 739 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: been carried away by something beautiful again, whether sunset over 740 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: the rocky mountains, a lover or a Picasso sort of 741 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 2: understands this irrational connection that you can have with something beautiful. 742 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: Where does it end for him? Though? So he does 743 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: this after serving this time, and he comes out and 744 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: he steals something, I mean, does he end up back 745 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: in jail? Like, what's the end of your story? 746 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 2: Like? So, as I mentioned at the outset, this is 747 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 2: a modern story. This is not historical fiction. The last 748 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: time I saw Breitweiser was at his trial in March 749 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three. The book continues up to literally 750 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: to twenty twenty three, and again the first half is 751 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 2: this incredibly risky, ridiculously daring rise and then the wing, 752 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 2: the wax wings melt. In the second half is this 753 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 2: incredibly distressing, horrific crash, and so Breitwiser's right now as 754 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: we're speaking, under control of the French penal system, and 755 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 2: also at the same time he's on like a house 756 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 2: arrest at this point. He kind of got lucky by 757 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 2: the during the COVID pandemic, when non violent criminals were 758 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: released from prisons, not just in France but also in 759 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 2: the United States and elsewhere. Has been able to just 760 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: avoid being imprisoned, and said has like an ankle monitor. 761 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if right now as we're speaking, 762 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: he has unscrewed his ankle monitor and is in a 763 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 2: museum now sizing up of art. 764 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: How are we meant to think about him at the 765 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: end of this I mean, I know that there are 766 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: mixed feelings probably about on Catherine and the mother, But 767 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: as a complicated character, what were you left with after 768 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: you were done talking to him about this book? You 769 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: probably know him better than most. 770 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 2: What I hope other readers take away from this and 771 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 2: what I took away with this Breitweiser, who if he 772 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 2: wasn't a thief, he could have been the most amazing 773 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 2: art professor of all time. I loved talking about art 774 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: with him. I loved walking around a museum with him. 775 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: I've never experienced someone. And even all his five therapists, 776 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 2: despite really denigrating him, calling him like a cancer on 777 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 2: society and incorrigible thief, all of them, all five of 778 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 2: them agreed along with the police officers, that he truly 779 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 2: was obsessed with these works of art. He did not 780 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 2: try to monetize it. He truly was an esthete of 781 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 2: like the most sensitive form, walking through museums and discussing 782 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 2: art and showing me what he saw. When he encountered 783 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 2: a work of art changed the way that I encounter 784 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,720 Speaker 2: works of art. I no longer walk through a museum 785 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 2: the same way. Like this whole intellectualizing that people tend 786 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: to do, I'm guilty at charged. Where you what do 787 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 2: you see in this painting where if you're on a 788 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: tour guard like, notice this balance of form and this, 789 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 2: you know, point to lism and this, look at this 790 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: thematic you know, look at all the symbolism in here, 791 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 2: all that is not as important but should be shoved aside. 792 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 2: And really everybody who made it a work, who makes 793 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 2: works of art from now and back through time, they 794 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: weren't trying to impress you intellectually. They were trying to 795 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: impress you, fulfill you, change you, tweak you emotionally. And 796 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: I hope that people who read this book you know 797 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 2: you can, you can be, you can. You can shake 798 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,720 Speaker 2: your head at the ridiculousness of Breitweiser, but you really 799 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 2: should listen to what he says about looking at art, 800 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: and next time you go through museum, take some of 801 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: his advice. Don't steal the painting for goodness sake, but 802 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 2: encounter this in a much richer way. I really that 803 00:40:58,480 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 2: is the thing that I will that I am most 804 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 2: grateful about spending all this time in this project. It 805 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 2: wasn't spending that time in Breitweiser's ridiculous world. But I really, 806 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 2: as a wooz it sounds more tuned to the beauty 807 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 2: in the world. And I really feel more emotionally raw 808 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 2: when it comes to walking through a museum, and I 809 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: love that. So that's really the kind of gift hidden 810 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 2: between the pages of a really ridiculous true crime stories. 811 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 2: It hopefully will change your esthetic sensibilities. I believe it will. 812 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 2: I know it did for me. 813 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 814 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 815 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 816 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our 817 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by 818 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composed artwork by Nick Toga. 819 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,760 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 820 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 821 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you 822 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 823 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 824 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 825 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for Wicked Words