1
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:21,599
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's nothing I don't

2
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 1: think colder than being near the sea during the cooler

3
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,320
Speaker 1: months of the year. The reason I say that is

4
00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,480
Speaker 1: that it's different than being kind of inland, where many

5
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:36,960
Speaker 1: times you feel like that you can put on just

6
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: enough clothing to make you feel more comfortable. But there's

7
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: something about being near the sea when it's cold out

8
00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 1: or cool. It's what they refer to as that kind

9
00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,840
Speaker 1: of bone chilling cold. If you live near the sea

10
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: in the cooler months, you run your heat and you

11
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,319
Speaker 1: try to make your environment as comfortable as you possibly can.

12
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: But the thing about being cool by the sea is

13
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:03,960
Speaker 1: that it permeates everything.

14
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:04,640
Speaker 2: It comes up.

15
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,320
Speaker 1: Through the floorboards of the house, it comes through the walls,

16
00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,959
Speaker 1: I think. And in our case that we're going to discuss,

17
00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,760
Speaker 1: we've got two people that were found in peaceful repose,

18
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,040
Speaker 1: as they say, a married couple that seemingly died side

19
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,399
Speaker 1: by side and what they thought initially was a carbon

20
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,679
Speaker 1: monoxide poisoning, but as it turned out, it's something far

21
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 1: more sinister than a heater gone bad. I'm Joseph Scott

22
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:45,280
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags. I'm an anglophile, I'll

23
00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: admit it. I love going to Great Britain. I love

24
00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,960
Speaker 1: exploring there. My family has roots all over the British Isles,

25
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: as many of us do, and it just has a

26
00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,240
Speaker 1: different feel than anywhere else I've really been. And you

27
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: get that since environmentally day when you're there many times

28
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: during the year, even in the summertime, particularly in the evenings,

29
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: you have to put on a sweatshirt, perhaps just to

30
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: remain comfortable. It's got that feeling in the air, of

31
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,519
Speaker 1: that coolness. I think that it's because it is an

32
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 1: island country. You're surrounded by the sea, the North Atlantic,

33
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 1: the North Sea, and so it's a presence that's always there.

34
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,400
Speaker 1: And certainly I think that it was there in the

35
00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 1: lives of Stephen Baxter and his wife Carol.

36
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,959
Speaker 3: It's interesting how we do perceive things. I've never been

37
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 3: to where you're talking about, but I'm picturing it from

38
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,920
Speaker 3: all the movies and pictures and things like that, and

39
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 3: so I understand where you're coming from. And as we

40
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,520
Speaker 3: delve into the story of a wonderful couple, they are

41
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,399
Speaker 3: Stephen and his wife Carol, the Baxters. He is sixty one,

42
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 3: she is sixty four. And the reason we're doing this story.

43
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,799
Speaker 3: Obviously it is called body bags, but in this particular case,

44
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,160
Speaker 3: it started off one way and win another. The couple

45
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,960
Speaker 3: have a twenty one year old daughter and she has

46
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 3: a son, little toddler. I'm picturing her. The daughter now, Ellie.

47
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 3: She comes home and she sees her mom and dad.

48
00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 3: They're in their recliners. Now in Great Britain, they called

49
00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 3: them something different, can't remember the actual term, but we

50
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,520
Speaker 3: call them, you know, lazy boy or recliner or whatever

51
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 3: you know. And usually in our case we have like

52
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,239
Speaker 3: the man has the big leather chair, the woman has

53
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 3: the dainty cloth chair. Come into my house, it's reversed.

54
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 3: I sit in the dainty cloth chair and my wife

55
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 3: sits in the big leatherne And so this couple, they've

56
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 3: been married long. They were just relaxing in their recliners

57
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 3: and their daughter, Ellie, comes in to check on him,

58
00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,280
Speaker 3: and she goes over to them and she said, hey,

59
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:53,160
Speaker 3: how you do. I don't know how they would say

60
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 3: how y'all doing in Great Britain. I don't know the wording,

61
00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 3: but they weren't doing well at that moment. I imagine

62
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 3: coming in, do you expect to see your mom and dad.

63
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 3: You've got their grand baby, your child, and they're both

64
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 3: sitting in their chairs, but they're dead. As a matter

65
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 3: of fact, Joe, it is explained by the daughter that

66
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 3: they were sitting there together and were peaceful. There were

67
00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,559
Speaker 3: no signs of a struggle or any pain. She immediately thought, well,

68
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 3: it has to be and you mentioned this at the beginning.

69
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,359
Speaker 3: It's cold chili and you got to turn the heat on.

70
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 3: She thought something went wrong with the heater and it's

71
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 3: got to be carbon monoxide poisoning. She immediately opens the

72
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:36,760
Speaker 3: doors to let in the breeze. She doesn't want her

73
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,720
Speaker 3: one year old toddler to get sick. She doesn't want

74
00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 3: to get sick, assuming it's carbon monoxide. But that's where

75
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 3: this case begins, Joe, with a loving couple together in

76
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,719
Speaker 3: their recliners, peacefully passing away.

77
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,839
Speaker 1: You're right, and listen when the local officials show up

78
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: at the scene. And let me paint this a little

79
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,599
Speaker 1: bit more precisely. This low ca You associate Great Britain

80
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,200
Speaker 1: as an island country. However, there are little islands that

81
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: are associated with Great Britain, and this is to the

82
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:17,359
Speaker 1: northeast of London, so it's actually sitting north of what

83
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: would commonly be referred to as the English Channel, right

84
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,719
Speaker 1: on the southern edge of the North Sea, and it's

85
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 1: like a little island. This is the way I pronounce it,

86
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 1: Mercy Island. And it's in the county of Essex, so

87
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 1: it's northeast of London. It's one of the oldest areas

88
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,119
Speaker 1: of Great Britain where you think about establishment of early

89
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,520
Speaker 1: settlements and that sort of thing. People have lived here

90
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 1: for a long time, but this is an area where

91
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,599
Speaker 1: it's primarily known for people retiring to this area. As

92
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,279
Speaker 1: matter of fact, the beaches there they have those have

93
00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,400
Speaker 1: you ever seen those? And they're kind of known for

94
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: this there in this location, those little changing huts that

95
00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 1: you see that are like in all of the pastel

96
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,320
Speaker 1: cust and so they have this and listen, it takes

97
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,719
Speaker 1: a much bolder man than I to want to go

98
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,520
Speaker 1: and bathe in those waters, because you're talking about the

99
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,800
Speaker 1: North Sea. Can you imagine going to the beach there

100
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,200
Speaker 1: and splashing about. But this is a retirement area. It's

101
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: quite beautiful. A lot of people seek this area out

102
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 1: and so it's always going to be cool about these parts.

103
00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: So when the first responders show up at the scene,

104
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: their bit of information is coming from the daughter who

105
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 1: has discovered her mom and dad deceased, and like you said,

106
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 1: you're going to look around for signs of fourth entry

107
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: or struggle. Even at a base level, if you're not

108
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 1: a forensics person or police officer, you have questions that

109
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,679
Speaker 1: pop up in your mind. Mom and dad are dead,

110
00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: but I don't see any blood. I don't see flipped

111
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,640
Speaker 1: over furniture. I don't see broken glass. All that stuff

112
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,919
Speaker 1: in your brain that's commonly associated with this sort of thing.

113
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,320
Speaker 1: You don't see that going on at this point in time.

114
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 3: Joe, let me ask you a quick question. When an investigators,

115
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 3: law enforcement, medical, when they show up to a scene

116
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,520
Speaker 3: and they see this, their background information comes from the

117
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 3: daughter and she's telling them what she thinks. As an investigator,

118
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 3: do you take that with a grant of salt or

119
00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 3: do you go, Okay, I've got to give this some power.

120
00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 3: She knows what's going on, she knows how they normally are.

121
00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 3: This doesn't fit.

122
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 1: You have to be very, very careful and measured when

123
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,280
Speaker 1: you do this, because, first off, as investigators where all skeptics.

124
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: People are not going to like me saying this, we

125
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 1: assume everybody's lying to us. You just developed that kind

126
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 1: of callous because you're going to have to prove this

127
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: to me. You have to check yourself when you're getting

128
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 1: incoming information, particularly as it applies to a circumstance like this.

129
00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: And this is what we would refer to as the

130
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 1: initial reporter. This initial reporter has given you information, and

131
00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: so you take to some total what you're seeing at

132
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,400
Speaker 1: the scene, the information that's verbally coming from her and

133
00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 1: her initial observations, because no one's going to have a

134
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,200
Speaker 1: clear sense of things in their pristine condition as she

135
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 1: would have, you know, because she's listen. One of the

136
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 1: things you can validate really quickly, you know, I talked

137
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 1: about signs of fourth century and struggle. You go to

138
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,320
Speaker 1: the door, you go to the windows, and if nothing's

139
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,400
Speaker 1: knocked out, and you know that she's the daughter, she

140
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,840
Speaker 1: has access to this. She's going to be the person

141
00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 1: that has the key to the lock that will turn

142
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,839
Speaker 1: it open the door. Maybe she calls out to as

143
00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 1: they say, mom and dad, they're in Great Britain, and

144
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 1: they don't respond, And there they are, they're peacefully seated

145
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,080
Speaker 1: in they're old recliners, they're that position of comfort that

146
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,960
Speaker 1: they have, and you examine them and you look at them,

147
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,600
Speaker 1: And I don't mean examine them in the sense of

148
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,600
Speaker 1: like a clinical sense. I'm talking about a familial sense

149
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 1: where you know, because you're so intimately a part of

150
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 1: their lives, you know how they look, you know what

151
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 1: their natural appearance is, you know what their common response

152
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,600
Speaker 1: would be to you. Particularly you're standing there with this

153
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 1: precious one year old baby. And there's actually quite a

154
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: poignant image of mister Ms Baxter standing there holding this

155
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,319
Speaker 1: one year old that was taken immediately Adjason and Dave.

156
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:19,440
Speaker 1: Here's the other part.

157
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 2: To this case.

158
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,679
Speaker 1: When the daughter showed up on that Sunday morning, it

159
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 1: was maybe with a sense of joy, sense of hope.

160
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,559
Speaker 1: Maybe it was in her mind a moment of celebration,

161
00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 1: because it wasn't just any other Sunday.

162
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 2: It was Easter Sunday.

163
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,120
Speaker 1: One of the most terrifying days I ever experienced as

164
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigator was the day I was

165
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 1: exposed to carbon monoxide. I had been given all clear

166
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 1: as myself and two of my colleagues, we had a

167
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 1: multiple death and event that occurred within a single family

168
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 1: residence where we had. I don't know the number escapes me,

169
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: but it was over six people that were dead in

170
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,080
Speaker 1: this house. And I got out there to the scene

171
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 1: to work the case, and the fire department had assured

172
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 1: me that the house had been sufficiently ventilated, and as

173
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,560
Speaker 1: I came to find out a couple hours later, I

174
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,440
Speaker 1: was laying on a gurney inside of a local emergency room,

175
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,400
Speaker 1: hooked up to oxygen and having nurses come in and

176
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 1: assess me minute by minute to see how I was

177
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: doing because I had been exposed to carbon monoxide and

178
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,000
Speaker 1: it's absolutely terrifying and it's something that for most of

179
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,960
Speaker 1: us you would get an immediate response to, and Dave

180
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,160
Speaker 1: in this case, that's the bit of information that came

181
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,760
Speaker 1: in to local responders. That would have been her first impression,

182
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,840
Speaker 1: her being the daughter. I think mom and dad may

183
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,680
Speaker 1: have died as a result of carbon monoxide, and there's

184
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,720
Speaker 1: just certain things that you look for in those cases.

185
00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 3: So the investigators take that information and begin to investigate.

186
00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,720
Speaker 3: Nothing looks like it was crazy. There was no sign

187
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,360
Speaker 3: of a fight or anything like that. It really did look,

188
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 3: as their daughter said, a peaceful scenario and one that

189
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 3: and what is really sad there's a lot sad here.

190
00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,080
Speaker 3: But I thought about how as this case evolved, where

191
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 3: the daughter said that when they're passing. In the first

192
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,959
Speaker 3: days following it, she mentioned several times that even though

193
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,800
Speaker 3: they were gone, she had that really wonderful, peaceful last

194
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 3: look at them lovingly sitting together in their chairs, having

195
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 3: a good time as people in their sixties are doing.

196
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 3: And I thought how rocked her world must have been

197
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,320
Speaker 3: when they found out what really happened, because underneath this

198
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 3: very serene and peaceful can call it peaceful, serene death,

199
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,400
Speaker 3: but it looked like that. But investigators have to do

200
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 3: their job. So, Joe, what leads you from that? Seems

201
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 3: like an obvious answer. You've got the two bodies in

202
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,920
Speaker 3: front of you, two investigators come in and take the

203
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,880
Speaker 3: bodies out of the chairs and start examining there. How

204
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 3: do you go about moving somebody in this peaceful state

205
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,040
Speaker 3: and taking them back to the office or whatever to

206
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,640
Speaker 3: look at them. I mean, you're not going to do

207
00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:31,319
Speaker 3: it right there.

208
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 1: No, you would do an initial assessment, and those things

209
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 1: are going to really and I literally mean visually pop

210
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,600
Speaker 1: when you think about it. I often tell my students

211
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,200
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State, I'm teaching death investigation too. Imagine the

212
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 1: most brilliantly colored pink lollipop or popsicle piece of candy

213
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 1: that you've ever seen. And when you'll see that external

214
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 1: manifestation on the body of carbon monoxide uptake in the system.

215
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: It presents on the skin, Dave, it presents in the face,

216
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,200
Speaker 1: on the external surfaces end. Even when you get the

217
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 1: body into the morgue and you open the body, the

218
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,080
Speaker 1: internal viscera will have that very pink appearance to it.

219
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,960
Speaker 1: Even the blood changes color. So it's something that would

220
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 1: be quite striking that you would see initially. Now many

221
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: times you have to be very careful because in a

222
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 1: case like this where you have just the fact that

223
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,080
Speaker 1: she would mention this gives you an indication. First off,

224
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,080
Speaker 1: she knows that there's a heat source in the house.

225
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,079
Speaker 1: Because she's drawn this conclusion. You would have to check

226
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,079
Speaker 1: that heat source within the house, and you have to

227
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 1: do it very carefully because, look, your people, as public

228
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,720
Speaker 1: servants are going into this environment that could be toxic.

229
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 1: So you'll have to check the heat source and see

230
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,960
Speaker 1: if all of the heating sources are functioning correctly. So

231
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 1: that means you have to call the fire service out

232
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,120
Speaker 1: and with the Fire Service, they we actually have and

233
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 1: many of us have these in our homes. You have

234
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: carbon monoxide detectors just like fire detectors, and they go

235
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,960
Speaker 1: off when sensing this poisonous gas. The Fire Service actually

236
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 1: has handheld devices that they can walk through home and

237
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: they can do an immediate assessment in this environment to

238
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: see if they're getting hits in any of these areas.

239
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 1: And I would think from an investigative standpoint, you call

240
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: the fire service out right, you're standing there and you're

241
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: talking with local investigators, and these guys walk in, they're

242
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 1: wearing respirators and they're checking the environment to see if

243
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 1: there is any indication that there's carbonoxide in the environment,

244
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 1: and they're not getting hits, and they come back out

245
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 1: and they report this to the investigators. The investigators suddenly

246
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: have to be able to explain that just grab onto

247
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 1: this just for a moment. They suddenly have to explain, Okay, well,

248
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,280
Speaker 1: now we've got no signs of fourth century apparently, no

249
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: signs of external trauma. We don't have any presentation of

250
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 1: those artifacts. That's what we refer to them as on

251
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 1: the surface of skin relative to carbon monoxide. With the

252
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 1: pink color, and I've got a machine here that's telling

253
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 1: me that there's no level of caron monoxide in an

254
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: environment that's incompatible with life. That investigator has to take

255
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 1: all of that in formula and said, well, behind the

256
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,920
Speaker 1: heck did I get to the point where I've got

257
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 1: two people that are sitting side by side deceased, they're dead,

258
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: And people just don't you hear these stories of people

259
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 1: that have been married for a long time. You hear

260
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,360
Speaker 1: these in the news where you'll have one person that'll

261
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: pass away peacefully and then a couple of months later

262
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 1: claim the other person dies of a broken heart. And

263
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 1: that seems to happen many times, that people just give

264
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 1: up the will to live. But simultaneous deaths, that's just

265
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: not something that happens.

266
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 3: Dave, I feel so bad for their daughter discovering them

267
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 3: in that state. But you mentioned people don't die like that.

268
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,000
Speaker 3: So you're the investigator. You're coming in showing her the

269
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 3: proper amount of respect because you don't want to turn

270
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,680
Speaker 3: her make it even worse. But at some point she's

271
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 3: going to find out it's a lot worse than she thinks.

272
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,880
Speaker 1: Then, as an investigator, you're thinking in your mind, well,

273
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 1: what could be the potential here? Am I looking at

274
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 1: a double suicide? Here? Is there any indication around the body,

275
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,400
Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that you're going

276
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 1: to look for. You're going to look for any substances

277
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,480
Speaker 1: that might be at the scene that would give an

278
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 1: indication that this is some kind of non trauma related

279
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 1: suicide where you've entered into a pack to take on

280
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 1: some kind of substance that is going to be toxic,

281
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: in other words, incompatible with life, and that you're going

282
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 1: to succumb to this. And listen, if you don't get

283
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: this right at the scene, right at that moment, then

284
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: you can lose all kinds of evidence. So you're going

285
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 1: to go through this house and very very carefully looking

286
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,640
Speaker 1: for I mean everything from injectables of any kind. You're

287
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 1: going to go into the kitchen to see if there's

288
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 1: anything that has been mixed up, maybe that is sitting

289
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 1: in the sink, something with a white powdery residue. You're

290
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,760
Speaker 1: going to look through this environment and attempt to determine

291
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,880
Speaker 1: if in fact that there was that there's something more here,

292
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,920
Speaker 1: something that doesn't quite come up to snuff, if you will,

293
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 1: And it's a moment in time where you have to

294
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 1: be able to assess it and make that determination.

295
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 3: Then if carbon monoxide doesn't have a smell or anything right.

296
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,479
Speaker 1: It doesn't. It gives you a pounding headache. I can

297
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 1: attest to that, and you'll get external manifestations initially like

298
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,520
Speaker 1: bloodshot eyes and those sorts of things. And here's just

299
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of on an a side here. If you are

300
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,480
Speaker 1: exposed to carbon monoxide, it can still be lethal eight

301
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: hours after exposure. That's how dangerous it is. It is

302
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 1: the most common agent that we see in a gaseous

303
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,479
Speaker 1: form that people actually succumbed to, and it's used. It

304
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 1: is actually used frequently as a means to take one's life.

305
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: You see it. You know, you hear about people that

306
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 1: sit in a car and with the windows rolled down

307
00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 1: inside of a closed garage. I've actually had a man

308
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 1: that used a glass cutter to cut a hole in

309
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: a window pane of his home and had an old

310
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 1: truck parked just outside his window and ran a vent

311
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,639
Speaker 1: ducked from a dryer. He taped it to the tailpipe

312
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 1: and ran it through the window and had this is

313
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,920
Speaker 1: a very sad case. It just came to mind, had

314
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 1: the cremains. That means the remains of his daughter and

315
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: his wife that had died in a motor vehicle accident

316
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,000
Speaker 1: years before, laying on the bed next to him, took

317
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 1: wet towels and sealed beneath the doors, and after he

318
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:58,919
Speaker 1: had turned the truck on outside and just laid down

319
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 1: his bed and died. So you do see that as

320
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:08,159
Speaker 1: a method for suicide, but it's something that would it

321
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 1: would stand out in this environment where you would have

322
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,480
Speaker 1: perhaps the smell of natural gas in the house, which

323
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 1: is quite pungent. Remember, natural gas doesn't normally have a smell.

324
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 1: They add this so that you can pick up on

325
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 1: the odor of it.

326
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:25,200
Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

327
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can get an odor in the air

328
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,040
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that this is danger. It's

329
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: certainly something that you would you would take notice of,

330
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 1: and to this point that didn't come up on the

331
00:19:39,160 --> 00:20:02,959
Speaker 1: radar of the police. So our big question in the

332
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: case of the Baxters is what could have possibly led

333
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: to their deaths. Well, we know that both have underlying

334
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,159
Speaker 1: physical conditions. They're retired, David. I don't know if you

335
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 1: realize this, but first off, it's not cheap to live

336
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 1: on this island. And interestingly enough, this couple together apparently

337
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,880
Speaker 1: had developed a very specific of all things bathmat that

338
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 1: they had patented that they had sold and they became

339
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 1: quite wealthy off of this. So they were able to

340
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 1: live the life of millionaires because they actually were. So

341
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 1: you begin to think about this, what could have been

342
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 1: going on in their lives that would have brought their

343
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: lives to an end simultaneously. Is this something where there's

344
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: depression going on, physical illness, because sometimes that will motivate

345
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,920
Speaker 1: people to take their own lives, or is it something

346
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: more sinister? And I think in this case, we've got

347
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: something that is a bit more sinister, Dave.

348
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 3: And that's where as the investigators dig in, and you

349
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,879
Speaker 3: mentioned this that based on the physical things that are

350
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 3: seen when somebody actually does have carbon monoxide poisoning, the

351
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,399
Speaker 3: experts were able to pretty much eliminate that within a

352
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 3: matter of minutes. I imagine they played up with the

353
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 3: daughter for a little while to not crush her because

354
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 3: they didn't have an answer. But they didn't have an

355
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 3: answer as to how they died or why or who,

356
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: but they know it's probably not carbon monoxide. They did

357
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 3: allow Elliott or their daughter to continue thinking that until

358
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 3: they actually did have an answer, though.

359
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 1: I was looking up.

360
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 3: Some things at the end, was reading in one of

361
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 3: the first stories right after they were found, because I

362
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 3: wanted to see what did their neighbors think, what did

363
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 3: the family think. Got a couple in their early sixties

364
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 3: and they're both gone, and overall it was a very

365
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 3: much loving tribute to the couple that they died together

366
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 3: of carbon monoxide poisoning. That's how it was kind of

367
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 3: report did the day a day or two after their passing.

368
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 3: It was only when they actually investigated it and the

369
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 3: experts got involved that the other story came out.

370
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,239
Speaker 1: It is quite dark, very very dark. You know, you

371
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: think about, well, what would motivate someone to take these

372
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 1: people's lives. They were both kind of infirm. Missus Baxter

373
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: actually had in dwelling pneumonia at this particular time. What

374
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 1: is that, Well, she's got ongoing pneumonia and so it's

375
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: bronchial pneumonia and it's very difficult for her to breathe

376
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 1: in the first place. And we're talking about breathing here,

377
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, people were talking, you know, we're throwing around

378
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: this idea of carbon monoxide assixiation. Well, that's going to

379
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 1: compromise the respiratory system. And now mister Baxter actually had

380
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 1: a condition that's referred to as just cardiomeg which is

381
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: an enlarged heart. And so they're not in the best

382
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: of health, either one of them. So it wouldn't take

383
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: a lot to in their lives, particularly if there was

384
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: some kind of agent that was applied to them, some

385
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: kind of chemical And in this particular case, you know,

386
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: they listen. When you get to a scene and you're

387
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: working this thing, you have indicators they're there. For instance,

388
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: if you have drug ods. Let's keep it simple. You

389
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: think about someone that's a IV heroin abuser. Well, if

390
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: THEOD at the scene, you're going to find what to

391
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: refer to as their works. You'll find a tourniquet, You'll

392
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: find a spoon. Generally the underside of the bowl of

393
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: the spoon will be burned soot on the bottom of it.

394
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 1: You'll have maybe siline that's there. You'll have cotton swab,

395
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: and you'll have evidence of maybe yellow or white pottery substance,

396
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: and a syringe that they can draw something up through.

397
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: You'll have these definitive things. But listen, you're not going

398
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: to know that the heroine killed somebody until you get

399
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: toxicology back. Talking about this poor daughter, she didn't have

400
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: answers at the time. She was just kind of coming

401
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: up with these idea is in her mind about what

402
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: could have happened. But boy, when the toxicology came back,

403
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: were they surprised because, as it turns out, both mister

404
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: and missus Baxter had on board fentanyl, of all things day,

405
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: which is just that absolute scourge of society right now.

406
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: I mean, so many people are losing their lives as

407
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: a result of fentanyl.

408
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: And we've had many stories this year alone about fentanyl.

409
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: This year alone. Yeah, and she also had promethazine in

410
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: her system, which is an agent that generally they give

411
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: it counteract nausea. It has been used as a precursor

412
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: for application of anesthesia. It has that quality where it

413
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: will make you drowsy. So if you take, for instance,

414
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: promethazine and it's combined with certainly with fentanyl, it will

415
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: certainly be enough to push you over the edge into

416
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: that toxic range where it's a non survivable position. And

417
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't take a lot of fentanyl to kill someone.

418
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: We've heard for years and years people will have they

419
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: know how powerful morphine is. Morphine is actually derived. It's

420
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: an opiate, and it's a naturally occurring thing. Okay, it's

421
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: not necessarily something that is blended up in a laboratory.

422
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: Fentanyl is actually something that is synthetic. The molecule is

423
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: similar to all other naturally occurring opiates, but this is

424
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: something that is processed that it is created. And fentyl

425
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: has a long history of being used as a substance

426
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: in the medical community for pain, and that's kind of

427
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: where it's the wellspring from what this thing comes from.

428
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: But now people are manufacturing it and those that have

429
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: the inclination to want to do harm. It doesn't take

430
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: very much to get this on board. The question is,

431
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: and the question that the police have to ask in

432
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: this particular case, is who has access to these individuals? Well,

433
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: you know, the first thing you have to think about,

434
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: and this is just part of being an investigat You

435
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: have to think about the daughter. Does she have anything

436
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 1: to gain by doing harm to her parents? Does she

437
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to do this subject them to this substance. Well,

438
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: apparently they eliminated her pretty quickly. In this particular case.

439
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: As it turns out, they have in fact, at this

440
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: point in time, arrested individuals that the police are now

441
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: saying or responsible for the deaths of the Backs or so.

442
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: As this turns out, this is in fact a homicide

443
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: that was brought about by the use of funnel. The

444
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: question to this point, though, because this case has yet

445
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: to be adjudicated, is how did they get the substance

446
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: into their systems without them knowing about it. To this point,

447
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: three people have been arched. One in particular, Luke de Witt,

448
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: has actually been charged with two counts of murder as

449
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: well as theft. But at this point we're still waiting

450
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: on the trial and the outcome of this case. I'm

451
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks