Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hi, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and it's just me today.
Speaker 1: Joe is away from work, so I reached out to
Speaker 1: Martin Wallen, Professor emeritus at Oklahoma State University, an author
Speaker 1: of numerous books, including the one book Squid, part of
Speaker 1: the Reaction Animal series that will be discussing here today.
Speaker 1: The book is out in both digital and physical forms,
Speaker 1: and I highly recommend it as it dives into not
Speaker 1: only science and natural history, but also mythology, folklore, and literature.
Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview
Speaker 1: and discuss all of this with Martin. Hi, Martin, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you very much. Your book, Squid,
Speaker 1: part of Reactions Animal series, came out last year, and uh,
Speaker 1: as I started reading in our ease, this is exactly
Speaker 1: the sort of book that we'd love to discuss on
Speaker 1: the show. So if I make cobble together a couple
Speaker 1: of questions here, where did your interest in cephalopods come from?
Speaker 1: And how did this book come together? Right? Well, that's
Speaker 1: that's a nice question to be good with. UM. I
Speaker 1: had written UM two other books about animals UM, one
Speaker 1: about foxes, which is also part of the Reaction Animal series.
Speaker 1: UM and I've written a book about dogs UM. The
Speaker 1: book but dogs I actually started before the fox book,
Speaker 1: and that really arose out of UM relationships I've had
Speaker 1: with horses UM. Oddly enough, but because I've been around
Speaker 1: horses for a long time, I've increasingly begun to wonder
Speaker 1: how to engage with UM or how to write about
Speaker 1: an animal UH with whom we half engaged in a
Speaker 1: completely non verbal way UM and most effectively UH through
Speaker 1: touch UM and other forms of sensory perception. UM. And
Speaker 1: there's a mode of being on horses as known as
Speaker 1: being quiet UM. But I could never quite work out
Speaker 1: our way to deal with that, So UM and I
Speaker 1: began thinking more pointedly about my relationship with dogs and
Speaker 1: how we interact with dogs generally, which led me to
Speaker 1: think about relationships with non domestic animals like foxes and
Speaker 1: so on. UM and then UM I began to think, well,
Speaker 1: what about preachers that are even more UM alien to
Speaker 1: us creatures We probably don't interact with UM on a
Speaker 1: daily level UH the way we interact with UM domestic
Speaker 1: animals or even the wild animals that might be passing
Speaker 1: through our neighborhood UM, and I really began to question
Speaker 1: what animal might I um explore just in a perhaps
Speaker 1: a theoretical way uh that would enable me to at
Speaker 1: tackle questions like, umbly, what is it like to be
Speaker 1: in a world with unknown, unknowable creatures not only once
Speaker 1: we have to remain quiet about, but once we can
Speaker 1: barely even begin speaking about. Um. And so I started
Speaker 1: exploring squids uh and found them enticingly bizarre uh and
Speaker 1: enticingly weird um and really just took up a series
Speaker 1: of questions about about those strange, odd animals and how
Speaker 1: um human cultures have over the millennia tried to describe them,
Speaker 1: or account for them, or express their anxieties about them
Speaker 1: and so on. And that's where I is up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I really love the way that you you tackle the
Speaker 1: subject of of the of the animal of the squid
Speaker 1: in this book, because you you know, you approach it
Speaker 1: from the you know, the philosophical and the naturalist viewpoint.
Speaker 1: You get into the scientific research both um current and
Speaker 1: UM and and of the previous century and so forth,
Speaker 1: and then then you get into this idea of of
Speaker 1: of literary treatment mythological treatment, etcetera. So it's a it's
Speaker 1: I love the net that you cast in this. But
Speaker 1: you begin with Aristotle in the fourth century BC philosopher's
Speaker 1: attempts to understand and chronicle cephalopods. What did Aristotle get
Speaker 1: right and what did he get wrong? Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: I by push someone an ancient writer like Aristotle is
Speaker 1: that he's really working within his cultural context. So in
Speaker 1: his view and in the view of let's say, the
Speaker 1: classical Greek world, he got pertually everything right. Um. What
Speaker 1: we would see that he got uh wrong in that
Speaker 1: regard is when he describes the semple plods um as bluntless,
Speaker 1: because of course they're not bloodless. They simply have a
Speaker 1: different color of blood than um most of those terrestrial
Speaker 1: animals um. And um. What he makes uh references to
Speaker 1: certain qualities, like the fact that they lay imperfect eggs um,
Speaker 1: because we think, well, those are squid eggs, and they're
Speaker 1: appropriate to squids, and they're like squids, uh, And that
Speaker 1: they're aquious. But by imperfectly means um that's the term
Speaker 1: he uses it in reference to other animals as well.
Speaker 1: By perfect he really means that the eggs um don't
Speaker 1: remain uh, don't stay keep the same appearance um that
Speaker 1: they have when they're first laid by the mother squid.
Speaker 1: O the way, let's say chicken eggs are UM. Lizard
Speaker 1: eggs basically are laid as hard shelled eggs, and say
Speaker 1: that way until they're hatched. UM. So that seems like, um,
Speaker 1: something incorrect in our thinking, UM, but it's actually appropriate
Speaker 1: to Aristotle's um uh conceptual view of the world. Well,
Speaker 1: we generally UM say that Aristotle got right, of course,
Speaker 1: UH his physical descriptions of of really all the animals
Speaker 1: and everything he he writes about UH. And that's that's
Speaker 1: that's really what UM puts him at the very foundation
Speaker 1: of modern um natural philosophy and ultimately modern science, because
Speaker 1: he does pay a lot of attention and great care
Speaker 1: to the physical appearance of squids UH. And and that
Speaker 1: enables him to make certain rudimentary uh classifications among the
Speaker 1: different kinds of squids. UM. It's also important to bear
Speaker 1: in mind, and maybe this is on the wrong side,
Speaker 1: but UM, it's more of a qualification that Aristyle, being
Speaker 1: a Greek and a Greek of the fourth century BC, UM,
Speaker 1: really stayed pretty close to shore Um. He most of
Speaker 1: his observations of squids were done on the Isle of
Speaker 1: Lesbos from the Gulf of kolani Um, rather than out
Speaker 1: in the deeper waters. So that means that the squids
Speaker 1: he saw were the smaller inshore varieties of squids, and
Speaker 1: possibly some of the some of the larger varieties which
Speaker 1: he probably would have seen on fisherman's boats or as
Speaker 1: uh dead specimens that floated ashore um, and those would
Speaker 1: have been less common to him. Uh. And so it
Speaker 1: doesn't offer that many accounts of us those squids, and
Speaker 1: nor does he really dealt into the differences between inshore
Speaker 1: and the offshore squids. So uh no, that's that's what
Speaker 1: I would say, is let's say right and wrong gish
Speaker 1: about um accounts. Now you mentioned the fisherman, of course,
Speaker 1: and that leads to the question like, what was the
Speaker 1: culinary view of of of squids and their relatives during
Speaker 1: Aristotle's time? Well, that's that's intriguing view. I think almost um,
Speaker 1: everyone um who doesn't vegan has had calamari on our
Speaker 1: different kinds of squid. Um. Squids are nice to eat, um,
Speaker 1: and they were nice to eat then, except that the
Speaker 1: ancient Greeks had a much more emp different view of
Speaker 1: of what we call seafood um than than we do.
Speaker 1: And that in biblemence comes from uh general general revolver
Speaker 1: towards the sea, which was commonly referred to as being
Speaker 1: simply perfidious because it was a dangerous place. Uh and
Speaker 1: uh you could think you, being a human, could think
Speaker 1: um down below the surface and never be seen again. Uh.
Speaker 1: And fish, including squids um, were known to eat humans.
Speaker 1: And so the idea of eating an animal that eats
Speaker 1: humans uh just tends to stir the stomach, but also
Speaker 1: tends to um rub against the philosophical if you have
Speaker 1: madam madam psychosis, which would suggest that if um squids
Speaker 1: eating humans, then we are essentially eating humans that have
Speaker 1: been transformed and so squids by their digestive tract uh.
Speaker 1: And that's something that that seemed to be immoral um
Speaker 1: and and um culpable, so that people who did eat squids,
Speaker 1: and they're numerous references to the um ethicals. Do people
Speaker 1: who did squizz worse somehow morally suspect uh and somehow Um,
Speaker 1: we're either indulgent or not to be frosted um. Part
Speaker 1: of that sew I think it's gets um um exacerbated
Speaker 1: later on by the high morality of someone like Plato
Speaker 1: who really lives sort of titanical or had a puritanical
Speaker 1: view of the world. Uh, and so he would keep
Speaker 1: really condemned U. Some of the UM writers who focused
Speaker 1: on their their diets and um what they enjoyed eating
Speaker 1: like squids. So all it was it was people people
Speaker 1: ate them almost certainly, but um they were unhappy about
Speaker 1: eating them, at least in the Greek world. Uh. And notably,
Speaker 1: there are very few um visual despictions of squids or
Speaker 1: even marine life UM, apart from the sat dolphins until
Speaker 1: pretty late in the Greek world. Now, why is there
Speaker 1: so much terminological confusion concerning squids, octopuses, and cuttlefish and
Speaker 1: classical literature? This is something you discussed in the book
Speaker 1: right right. Well again that that largely comes from Aristotle
Speaker 1: UM and who Aristotles, when he was describing the cephalopods
Speaker 1: UM really grouped them all under the general general heading
Speaker 1: of malakoi was basically means um um soft bodied creatures
Speaker 1: or as I like to think, squishy, squishy creatures UM.
Speaker 1: And he didn't go into that much detail, and distinguishing,
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, the inshore from the offshore UMU squids.
Speaker 1: He distinguishes UH squids from cuttlefishes and octopuses, but even
Speaker 1: there he refers to UH polly plods UH. And then
Speaker 1: he'll refer to the cuttle fishes, sometimes using the term
Speaker 1: cps um UH and other times as polypus um and
Speaker 1: other times as tooth is or other times still as
Speaker 1: truth oaths UH. And as as later commentators and translators
Speaker 1: UM are obviously confused about exactly which creature he was
Speaker 1: referring to. UM. The confusion has us to do with
Speaker 1: um occupuses, that does with the two decapods cuttle fishes
Speaker 1: and squids UM and there um Aerosold say that the
Speaker 1: he does, he does allow for a certain distinction, and
Speaker 1: that is based on the quality of their flesh. So
Speaker 1: cuttle fishes, which swim closer to shore, he says, UM
Speaker 1: absorb more of the heart um surface hard substances of
Speaker 1: the earth, so they have um a bone running through
Speaker 1: their um bodies with the cuttle bone UM, and that
Speaker 1: he referred to as the um cbi or the phobia
Speaker 1: bone UM. And then the the squids He then just
Speaker 1: referred to the tooth and the tooth tooth, And it's
Speaker 1: hard really to know again what he meant by the
Speaker 1: tooth is which has the ending i s and tooth oath,
Speaker 1: which has the ending o s UM. But it does
Speaker 1: seem that that that's largely my deduction as based on
Speaker 1: UM lexicons and UH simply the fact that gave more
Speaker 1: attention to the truth is UM that that one truths
Speaker 1: refers to the instore crystals refers to the up floor UM.
Speaker 1: So there's really a confusion of what he The confusion
Speaker 1: is partly due to his his vagueness UM and his accounts,
Speaker 1: and to the later confusion of UH of commentators and translators,
Speaker 1: largely again because those commentators would themselves not have ventured
Speaker 1: out into the sea to look at squids or for
Speaker 1: that matter, of cold fishes or occupuses. But we're probably
Speaker 1: writing and unlocked the libraries UH, copying or summarizing um
Speaker 1: Aristotle's texts, so that that confusion does become pretty much
Speaker 1: um um a quality of squid or even m squishy
Speaker 1: um uh. Natural history for the next many years, let's say,
Speaker 1: the next thousand or so years, and as as you
Speaker 1: later discussed in the book, and we still have what
Speaker 1: what would encounter cases where something we're calling a squid
Speaker 1: is actually not technically a squid. Right you mean the
Speaker 1: um wasn't there? Uh when when you start talking about
Speaker 1: the vampire squid. Oh yes, yes, yes, of course, um right,
Speaker 1: technically that it is not a squid. That's it's actually
Speaker 1: more of an octopod because it doesn't um, it doesn't
Speaker 1: really have the same layout of of arms and testicles
Speaker 1: that squids do. Uh so yeah, so you're right us
Speaker 1: that's one of the strangest um creatures um and also
Speaker 1: a creature was one of the most delightful names of
Speaker 1: the vampire squid from hell um. Uh yes, but almost
Speaker 1: certainly as are let's at least possibly it's not actually
Speaker 1: as squid. Yeah. I love the the illustrations we see
Speaker 1: of this particular cephalobod in the book. One of them
Speaker 1: I was really taken with. I hadn't seen there seen
Speaker 1: this particular illustration before, but the artist almost it seemed
Speaker 1: like they were trying to make the squid appear like
Speaker 1: a skull. Am I alone in uh interpreting it this way? Yes,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's sort of appropriate. That's that's I
Speaker 1: believe carl Um illustration Um, oh no, I have right here.
Speaker 1: It does look like skull um because it's it's black,
Speaker 1: and it's it's in this particular stration, it's upside down,
Speaker 1: so it has the sort of duelish mouth that seems
Speaker 1: to be in sort of a hideous grin underneath two eyes.
Speaker 1: And then there's a no socket. Right. That's that's that's
Speaker 1: sort of a fastful rendition of vampires than now, going
Speaker 1: back to the two ancient writings here Plenty of the Elder.
Speaker 1: Of course, his accounts inevitably come up when anytime we're
Speaker 1: discussing Western understandings of the natural world. And I was
Speaker 1: really taken by a bit from Plenty that you discussed
Speaker 1: in the book. Can you explain the proposed connection between
Speaker 1: the quote lavish nature of liquid and large marine animal sizes? Well,
Speaker 1: plenty um very much an air of Aristotle was describing
Speaker 1: the world as as he thought, uh and describing the
Speaker 1: world very much as a Roman. So when he looked
Speaker 1: out onto bodies of water, lakes, rivers, and the sea, um,
Speaker 1: he saw that there there there was a large form
Speaker 1: that was basically being fed continually by rainfall and other
Speaker 1: forms of precipitation. So that's that's the nourishment that he
Speaker 1: sees taking place UM. And then he draws a basic
Speaker 1: analogy between h two different realms of the world. On
Speaker 1: the one hand, there's the terrestrial realm populated by humans
Speaker 1: and land animals, and then the um aqueous world uh.
Speaker 1: And she says every form of of of um uh
Speaker 1: life that exists on land must also have its counterpart
Speaker 1: in the sea uh and the cious realm. But because
Speaker 1: the ocurious realm is more obviously nourished by precipitation uh
Speaker 1: and is by precipitation, which is like uh, the acicus
Speaker 1: realm than land is like precipitation UH. That means then
Speaker 1: that the animals are nourished themselves more um than land
Speaker 1: animals are, so they grow to greater uh scientists, even
Speaker 1: monster sizes. And because water is more fluid, they also
Speaker 1: are liable to take uh more varied shapes uh and
Speaker 1: even diverged into a completely different animals that do not
Speaker 1: exist on land. UM. So that analogy is central to
Speaker 1: plenty kind of thinking about natural history UM. And it's
Speaker 1: also a clear indication that he's thinking specilatively, since of
Speaker 1: course you didn't have a bathosphere uh and couldn't see
Speaker 1: the below the surface of the dark sea. Um. But
Speaker 1: it's also on the basis of that that um uh
Speaker 1: that later accounts of sea monsters of claimed to have
Speaker 1: some basis in um natural history. In fact, I also
Speaker 1: love a bit that you from Plenty that you share,
Speaker 1: because this is one of those quotes that I guess
Speaker 1: when you're when you're looking at things Plenty shared, I
Speaker 1: guess sometimes you know second or third hand about things
Speaker 1: in the world. Sometimes they may feel a bit detached
Speaker 1: from the actual reality. But this is one of those
Speaker 1: quotes that that I feel like actually after just speaks
Speaker 1: across the ages and and matches up with like my
Speaker 1: experience of seeing octopi in the wilder or any cephalopods
Speaker 1: in an aquarium. And that is quote that squids are
Speaker 1: virtually incomprehensible to those who have never seen one because
Speaker 1: they continually shift their appearance by moving their arms and
Speaker 1: changing colors. UM. I don't know about you, but I
Speaker 1: thought that really had a real ring of solid truth
Speaker 1: to it. Absolutely uh. And as I mentioned at the
Speaker 1: very beginning, would my interests uh and squids Uh, it's
Speaker 1: just that incomprehensibility, how can there be such an animal?
Speaker 1: The simple the basic word supple pod the official term
Speaker 1: for those whole group of animals, really means the head
Speaker 1: of feet, right suffalo and then pod for feet. That
Speaker 1: makes no sense, and that name encapsulates the oddness and strangeness,
Speaker 1: the alien quality of of these these creatures. Um. And
Speaker 1: they they really do challenge our basic sense So what
Speaker 1: an animal should be like m or act like? Because
Speaker 1: indeed they do change shape continually, they change colors continually, UM.
Speaker 1: And they in many ways they should not exist. Uh.
Speaker 1: There even questions that at various times in history about
Speaker 1: whether they should be categorized as animals or instead as plants. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so they've always been a real mystery uh and
Speaker 1: a real challenge to our ability to create um taxonomies,
Speaker 1: UM and explanations and based on categories of animals and
Speaker 1: their relations to one another, because there's always the troublic
Speaker 1: question of how do we do this head of feet
Speaker 1: in relation to ourselves? Um? And who's backwards? Are we
Speaker 1: built backwards or are they m Now you mentioned the mysterious,
Speaker 1: and of course you spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: the book discussing mythologies and folklore concerning various cephalopods, and
Speaker 1: of course you get into the into the giant squid
Speaker 1: quite a bit as well. UM. So so getting more
Speaker 1: into the scientific realm here, can you tell us what
Speaker 1: role Japterese Steamstrup played in bridging squid myth and squid
Speaker 1: science of the nineteenth century. Yeah, that's that's a great
Speaker 1: question for UM. Lots of reasons UM stage up. It's
Speaker 1: really the turning point from the tradition of UH, let's say,
Speaker 1: squid lower based on legends and UM uncertainty UH and
Speaker 1: the terminological vagueness that we were talking about two modern
Speaker 1: classifications that UM made possible scientific studies about squid since
Speaker 1: cephalopods UM. So for a number of years, especially in
Speaker 1: the North Atlantic area, there had been UM. Of course,
Speaker 1: there were the legends of the creek and the big
Speaker 1: monsters that swallowed up UM ships or that people would
Speaker 1: mistake as islands and land on and perform religious rituals
Speaker 1: and and then be swallowed up and dragged down to
Speaker 1: the sea. UM. And those legends were intermixed with a
Speaker 1: number of beachings of giant squids UH, the Artitude of
Speaker 1: ducks UM and other sightings of squids UH. And there
Speaker 1: were recorded as historically evince uh really starting um uh
Speaker 1: and let's say the sixteenth century by Guillame Brondelas who
Speaker 1: uh described um uh strange creatures that he referred to
Speaker 1: as um monkfish are episcopal fish, and he uh illustrated
Speaker 1: his roll delayed, that is, illustrated his accounts with drawings
Speaker 1: of of um preachers that had fins instead of feet
Speaker 1: and hands. But we're wearing a monk's habit or cardinals
Speaker 1: miter um and that those sorts of accounts really verd
Speaker 1: on on um uh my and uh fabulous accounts um.
Speaker 1: But there was still an effort to provide some kind
Speaker 1: of empirical credence to the existence of the unbelievable monsters um.
Speaker 1: So as a number of sightings and beach things occurred.
Speaker 1: By the middle of the nineteenth century, uh stain stroke
Speaker 1: came along um and fortuitously no one gave him a
Speaker 1: beak from one of the um uh giant squids that
Speaker 1: had beached um and Uh. He delivered a lecture in
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four where he went through all the different
Speaker 1: accounts of sea monsters by Rondelay Uh and others, and
Speaker 1: he people are in the kind of a literary analysis
Speaker 1: of all the descriptions um which had probably been um
Speaker 1: um gathered by Rondalay and others from from fisherman's accounts
Speaker 1: who tried to describe these bizarre creatures they had seen
Speaker 1: UM and on the Statestrup then concluded that all these
Speaker 1: accounts were referred to one very real creature. Uh. And
Speaker 1: so after a lengthy series of extra jesys of these
Speaker 1: various accounts, he quite dramatically um presented to his audience,
Speaker 1: Uh this beak he had been given a very imposing
Speaker 1: uh beak. A squid speak is like a hawk's beak
Speaker 1: or a parents beak, So it's really sharp and curved
Speaker 1: and mekets to tear flesh. Uh. So this is a
Speaker 1: good size speak Uh. And he with that sort of
Speaker 1: dramatic flourish of showing his audience to speak um, he
Speaker 1: was really to to change the accounts of seafarers and
Speaker 1: and let's say the legends of monsters into a verifiable
Speaker 1: uh animal that could be given a scientific name. And
Speaker 1: uh he's the one who then gave it the name
Speaker 1: Arctutus ducks. Uh. And with that name, uh, he basically
Speaker 1: cleared up the ambiguity that existence Aristotle and he uh
Speaker 1: allowed for a focused and discipline study of UM of
Speaker 1: squids based on UM, a real taxonomy, and a taxonomy
Speaker 1: that lays out UM different genera of squids, different species
Speaker 1: of squids, and is able to map their locations around
Speaker 1: the world. So m in in short stage really marks
Speaker 1: the transition from the world of myth and uncertainty and
Speaker 1: ambiguity to the world of modern empirical study. Now, speaking
Speaker 1: of modern study, one of the big topics that comes
Speaker 1: up in all this, and you discussed in the book
Speaker 1: of course, is the is the our attempts to understand
Speaker 1: cephalopod intelligence UM, and you bring up some of our
Speaker 1: responses to cephalopod intelligence and even the idea that they
Speaker 1: could be quote the primates of the sea. What are
Speaker 1: what are the challenges and limits in play when it
Speaker 1: comes to understanding the mind of the squid? Well, the
Speaker 1: cheligence a player or or are great. Even even though
Speaker 1: UH there is such thing as uh scientific study of
Speaker 1: squids and uh um the science of squids is growing.
Speaker 1: The taxonomy of squids is UM expanding exponentially as more
Speaker 1: and more species in general are being discovered continually UM.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, exactly what these creatures on
Speaker 1: her still remains UM cheezing, because they're these strange creatures
Speaker 1: whose heads consists of feet UM. But they also have
Speaker 1: sizeable brains UM, and they show a real intelligence UM.
Speaker 1: The marine biologists differ. Mather, as pointed out, I think
Speaker 1: most valuable, valuably UM that squids exist in on courting
Speaker 1: her hair worlds away from us UM. And even though
Speaker 1: she says, even though their their brains may not have
Speaker 1: quite the same UM structure as ours, they can still
Speaker 1: be seen to work in analogous ways to our brains,
Speaker 1: and therefore their intelligence can be seen to be somewhat analogous,
Speaker 1: albeit bizarre. UM. It's worth noting that the squid brains
Speaker 1: UM regulate movement through visual cues UM. That makes UM
Speaker 1: their perception UM and their movement their response to that
Speaker 1: perception almost simultaneous. In fact, so simultaneous has to be
Speaker 1: virtually the same event. Whereas let's say, in humans, most
Speaker 1: land creatures, UM, we perceived something and it might take
Speaker 1: a second or two to to respond UH, squids perceive
Speaker 1: and UH respond instantaneously. UH. Scientists have focused UM, particularly
Speaker 1: on what they call it the giant act on a
Speaker 1: very large nerve fiber that radiates throughout the wall of
Speaker 1: the mantle the tubular part of the squid. UH. This
Speaker 1: this nerve about a millimeter and diameter UH, really the
Speaker 1: largest nerves of any any animal in the world. And
Speaker 1: it's the size of the nerves that is able to
Speaker 1: enables the squid to transmit um as perceptions from its
Speaker 1: eyes and other receptors around this body instantaneously into as
Speaker 1: musculature to move UH so that they can UM. They
Speaker 1: can propel themselves by by shooting out streams of water
Speaker 1: within milliseconds of of UM perceiving something that they want
Speaker 1: to attack UH and UM their intelligence that really is
Speaker 1: I think can cannon should be described as want of
Speaker 1: movement onto one hand and predation on the other hand.
Speaker 1: Or really that's that's us the same as well, because
Speaker 1: they really are predators UH. And they are hyper sensitive
Speaker 1: UM to the UM their environment. UM. They have a
Speaker 1: number of organs and mechanisms for perception, not just their
Speaker 1: eyes but long their their entire bodies UM that are
Speaker 1: able to perceive well beyond our five sences. They don't
Speaker 1: have hearing almost certainly, but they are able to perceive
Speaker 1: um motion uh and motion and a very very fine
Speaker 1: degree um. And they also then can uh famously change
Speaker 1: colors um flash colors brilliantly illuminate themselves through chromatic fours,
Speaker 1: which are essentially um facts of of pick miants that
Speaker 1: cover their entire body uh and that can be um
Speaker 1: contracted and um opened um will to change the color
Speaker 1: of the skin UM. And as these sacs open and shut,
Speaker 1: expand and contract um, they reveal uh some routiforms underneath,
Speaker 1: and the routifors reflect light back uh as a kind
Speaker 1: of iridescence that's a different kind of light, is more
Speaker 1: of a polarized light, which we humans aren't really geared
Speaker 1: to perceive. That we can see a kind of sheen
Speaker 1: the way you would see on a soap bubble. And
Speaker 1: these changes, these chromatophores are really controlled again by the
Speaker 1: squid's eyes. So movement color changes are all instantaneous and
Speaker 1: um very much part of squid intelligence, governed by astonishing
Speaker 1: powers of perception, uh very dominant and and uh impressive
Speaker 1: nervous system uh and a brain so to do them
Speaker 1: as primates of the see they are again predators um
Speaker 1: and they pretty much live not at the top of
Speaker 1: the food chain, because of course they're eaten by many
Speaker 1: other creatures. But uh, their intelligence uh and their athleticism
Speaker 1: certainly makes them formidable. Uh so UH definitely puts them
Speaker 1: at the top of many people's hierarchy than now. One
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that you mentioned here
Speaker 1: that really blew me away. You discuss handling and messengers
Speaker 1: research into quote unquote squid talk in touch on their
Speaker 1: idea that that the squid in particular may engage in
Speaker 1: not only play, but dishonesty in communication. What are we
Speaker 1: to make of this? Right? Right? That's that's that is
Speaker 1: a delightful UM discovery by the scientists. UM. First of all,
Speaker 1: uh zniverer Mather again UM has studied um what she
Speaker 1: refers to as squiddish, the language of squids. UM just
Speaker 1: categorized that through studying um various postures and light flashes
Speaker 1: that squids uh make, so that she's able to come
Speaker 1: up with something approaching a lexicon. UM. And for the
Speaker 1: most part, UM, scientists and others UH look at the
Speaker 1: lexicon as as UM simply being informational the way we
Speaker 1: usually think of animal communication being informational. UM. Birds UM
Speaker 1: UH squawk and chirp, perhaps to say, um, um, good morning,
Speaker 1: or you and I are boyfriend and girlfriend, or there's
Speaker 1: a predator close by or something like that. UM. And
Speaker 1: if we think of if we start to think as
Speaker 1: Roger Hanlon and John Messenger suggests that perhaps squids are
Speaker 1: not simply communicating information, but they're creating misinformation UM disinformation UH.
Speaker 1: That suggests that there's something else going on a higher
Speaker 1: level of communication. And it suggests that there might even
Speaker 1: be a let's say, a performative quality to uh squiddi
Speaker 1: ish uh to squid communication, which is say, it's it's
Speaker 1: not literal, it's not simply um informational um, but it's
Speaker 1: something else UM. And that this honesty play a big role.
Speaker 1: And let's say literary allusions. So the very very much
Speaker 1: of literature UM does not simply consist of information UM
Speaker 1: relayed about something. It's not simply uh the empirical um
Speaker 1: descriptions of Aristotle, but it's suggestive UM, it's elusive UM.
Speaker 1: It relies on puns um, and it can rely on jokes. UH.
Speaker 1: So that suggestions that UM. Squids are not simply um,
Speaker 1: let's say, unimaginative animals who are merely saying food here.
Speaker 1: Pred sure there, but UM perhaps have the capacity for
Speaker 1: UM joking UM or UM imagination. But then since qui
Speaker 1: squids are undeniably major predators UM and even cannibals, we
Speaker 1: have to ask, UH, what are there jokes or what
Speaker 1: are they imagining? UM? Are they making jokes about us,
Speaker 1: which is discomforty um UM? Or are they making jokes
Speaker 1: with a punchline I will you um? Or if they're
Speaker 1: jokes are not found funny by other squids, will they
Speaker 1: be eaten? UM? That's a poling room for UM jokes
Speaker 1: of our own. And also, UM worry that's that's amazing. UM.
Speaker 1: Now a lot of that, I guess we're talking about information,
Speaker 1: you know, bicephalopods for cephalopods. But but coming back to
Speaker 1: the topic of what cephalopods can do for us. UH,
Speaker 1: that's something that that certainly drives a lot of the
Speaker 1: research you point out, UM, what are the brightest possibilities
Speaker 1: here and what are the arguments for for eating cephalopods
Speaker 1: even if they might be primates of the sea. Because
Speaker 1: I know that, UM. I know people who, for instance,
Speaker 1: are pastytarians but don't eat cephalopods or make a distinct
Speaker 1: choice not to eat them. Based on some of the
Speaker 1: intelligence research out there, well, the argument for UM eating
Speaker 1: UM self pods is simply they're enormous numbers UM they
Speaker 1: they UM they swarmed throughout personally UM all UH oceans
Speaker 1: and ease except for the Black Sea UM and and
Speaker 1: alive quantities, and they are highly are the fisheries UH
Speaker 1: years around squids are very successful in catching large quantities
Speaker 1: of them UM and that's important UM in this time
Speaker 1: of industrial fishing, when many species of a qualtify life
Speaker 1: are being simply wiped out through the drag netting and
Speaker 1: other forms of industrial fishing, so that um it really
Speaker 1: has become a mass produced kind of of food which
Speaker 1: are depleted, specially everything squids seems to be impervious to that,
Speaker 1: or at least so far UM and UM. That's that's
Speaker 1: really the argument. I'm I'm gonna hold off on what
Speaker 1: it means to something of intelligence for just a second,
Speaker 1: because there are other possibilities or um ways humans have
Speaker 1: sought to use to exploit UH squid UH. One of
Speaker 1: course is they're the giant axon um, so that scientists
Speaker 1: have begun to harvest squids just for that nerve UM
Speaker 1: and the hopes of using them to uh read juvenate
Speaker 1: UM humans who have become paralyzed, who have lost neurological functions. Uh.
Speaker 1: And that's that's a big hope for the pharmaceutical industry,
Speaker 1: or even suggestions that because of the squids um a
Speaker 1: capacity change colors that maybe um, some UM genius will
Speaker 1: find a way of transferring that used by the military
Speaker 1: industrial complex to allow UM let's say, camouflage in the battlefield,
Speaker 1: so that um um just as in phil Kate Dick's
Speaker 1: novels Scanner Darkly, where the policemen where these scanner suits
Speaker 1: that change their physical configuration completely. Uh. So let's say
Speaker 1: warriors could change the films completely so that nobody could
Speaker 1: see them. UM. So that sounds pretty far fetched, but
Speaker 1: UM it's it's perhaps on at least the table um
Speaker 1: as for eating them, or let's say it's loading them
Speaker 1: in any sense UM for the military or U for
Speaker 1: um uh medical uses. I think those arguments really wrestled
Speaker 1: doing them as resources UM, overlooking at intelligence UM or
Speaker 1: best as or at least disqualifying UM squid intelligence being
Speaker 1: less than human intelligence. UM. It's long been our tendency
Speaker 1: to say, uh, whatever is alien to us. Whatever is
Speaker 1: different from me. Uh, it cannot be as good as
Speaker 1: I am. Um And um, it can't even be real
Speaker 1: because it's not human, it's not really intelligent. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I might I might even mentioned that. Um. I submitted
Speaker 1: my books to the press. One of the editors took
Speaker 1: real issue with my prossses to the squid humor. Um.
Speaker 1: She said, Uh, that's impossible. There's no such thing as
Speaker 1: humor in the animal world. Has never been documented. Um. Well, UM,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I disagree, as I said, I spent
Speaker 1: plenty time around forces, and I know that they could
Speaker 1: be real jokesters. Um. And I know dogs can be jokesters.
Speaker 1: And uh, fox hunters around the world will tell you
Speaker 1: about foxes playing real tricks. Um. And So there is
Speaker 1: such thing as humor um. But it's hard to fathom
Speaker 1: of what self podh sepopod intelligence would be. But UM,
Speaker 1: I think it's also important to recognize. I'll just um
Speaker 1: challenge your farshating friends UM further and say, well, certainly
Speaker 1: all kinds of fish, all creatures of intelligence. Um. And
Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves if it's just different from ours,
Speaker 1: or if it really is lesser than ours, which would
Speaker 1: justify as eating a lesser being. UM. I don't know. Now,
Speaker 1: you of course get into cephalopod evolution, uh, taking us
Speaker 1: back six hundred million years. But but then something special
Speaker 1: seems to have occurred during the struggle with fish and
Speaker 1: marine reptiles. Can you describe what what what what we
Speaker 1: think happened here? UM? Well, of course at all highly expectative, UM.
Speaker 1: But around four hundred and fifty million years ago, I
Speaker 1: believe this is what you're referring to, UH, what is
Speaker 1: always been called as the Devonian extinction, when UM pretty
Speaker 1: much all almost all life UM disappeared UM, and slowly
Speaker 1: animals began to reappear UM in in various parts of
Speaker 1: the world, but decidedly not in the deepest oceans because
Speaker 1: oxygen levels there are are low. But stuffle pods seem
Speaker 1: to do okay. Uh. They moved offshore. UM. Squids in particular,
Speaker 1: UM moved into the deeper water. So that UH we
Speaker 1: again look back to Aristotle's to um accounts of the
Speaker 1: inshore and the offshore squids. Uh. The offshore squids grew
Speaker 1: bigger because squids generally lost UM, their shells, their molusky
Speaker 1: and shells UM. They UH we're able to move faster
Speaker 1: UM and they didn't have the bones that fishes had, UH,
Speaker 1: so that they were able to um prey upon the
Speaker 1: fish that previously preyed upon them because boneless squids were
Speaker 1: able to move much faster and react more quickly than
Speaker 1: bony fishes could UM. So that was that was one
Speaker 1: of the theoretically one of the key steps in the
Speaker 1: development of of or squids to somewhat modern squids that
Speaker 1: we see fairly recently, relatively speaking. And I've already alluded
Speaker 1: to changes going on in the oceans today. Is there
Speaker 1: a cephalopod explosion happening in the world today? Are we
Speaker 1: seeing changes in cephalopod populations? Well, it certainly seems so
Speaker 1: in many ways um UH. Popular presses around the world
Speaker 1: have referred to squid blooms or squids invasions, where large
Speaker 1: populations of supple pods show up in a particular area
Speaker 1: UM and it seems that that could be happening because
Speaker 1: of of UM climate change, so that UM the occurrence
Speaker 1: are shifting. That that's one explanation for why UM humble
Speaker 1: squids have shown up in large numbers in certain years
Speaker 1: around Monterey Bay, California. UM uh and have social large
Speaker 1: numbers that they have washed ashore UH and and and
Speaker 1: you know, along by the by the millions UM, causing
Speaker 1: course um serious sidetic issues. UM. It's also possible because
Speaker 1: of which to say that the explosion of squids also
Speaker 1: possible UM because of of the depletion of other fish UM,
Speaker 1: of fish that might be eating squids or competing with
Speaker 1: squids for um other food. UM. Maybe um whales have
Speaker 1: been uh depopulated enough to allow for explosions of squid.
Speaker 1: But it's also possible that people are starting to pay
Speaker 1: more attention to squids um. Uh. When there are putitive
Speaker 1: squid bloom somewhere, then fishing fleets will swarm to a
Speaker 1: particular area um and of fish that area heavily UM.
Speaker 1: And Since squids have a fairly short line of very
Speaker 1: short life, generally about a year UM, they can disappear
Speaker 1: and then reappear again uh later on, and as they
Speaker 1: move through the currents, they can appear in a different
Speaker 1: place uh and again in large numbers UM I just
Speaker 1: mentioned uh squid breed infant large numbers that scientists have
Speaker 1: referred to them as the protein pump of the sea.
Speaker 1: So that ass say UH breed in one part of
Speaker 1: the sea and then moved to another part of the sea,
Speaker 1: die and decompose. UH. They provide nutrients for other fish,
Speaker 1: other aquatic live forms UM so that UM they moved
Speaker 1: around in that way as well, UM so UM. At
Speaker 1: any rate, it seems that squids are highly adaptable if
Speaker 1: as climate change happens. UM. Squids, more than bony fish
Speaker 1: UM and other UM aquatic creatures UM, are very willing
Speaker 1: to change. UH. They're very willing to move into areas
Speaker 1: that had previously been thought to be incompatible with squids
Speaker 1: or cephalopods or really any form of life UM. And
Speaker 1: I think that the bottom line there's we see that
Speaker 1: almost certainly squids will endure than now. Obviously, I love
Speaker 1: the section in the book on folklore e squids and
Speaker 1: how interconnected the folklore is with our our just basic
Speaker 1: understanding of the various species. And I think our listeners
Speaker 1: will particularly enjoy this section of the book as well.
Speaker 1: And I can't possibly ask you about all of it,
Speaker 1: but one example I wanted to bring up. It was
Speaker 1: the the idea you share of the North Sea Reek,
Speaker 1: and the idea that the Sea Reek might be linked
Speaker 1: to ammonia in the giant squid body. Can you describe this?
Speaker 1: That's a a slight um connection UM that I hope
Speaker 1: I'm not um making too much of. But it is
Speaker 1: the case that the giant squid, artitude of ducts made
Speaker 1: famous by stains, ropen and others um, possesses um um
Speaker 1: um ammonia chloride and in its um um and it's
Speaker 1: flesh uh. And the reason for that is that these
Speaker 1: are animals that live very deep in the ocean um
Speaker 1: and the ammonia chloride provides buoyancy so that they don't
Speaker 1: um float to the surface where they wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: be because they be eaten by birds or whatever. UM,
Speaker 1: and also prevents them from sinking down to the bottom.
Speaker 1: All squids have ammonia chloride um. Really just a giant
Speaker 1: squid and a few other species in general. But in
Speaker 1: much of the folklore of squids uh folklore extending up
Speaker 1: into the novels of the modern era, the reek of
Speaker 1: ammonia is very much an aspect of an encounter worth
Speaker 1: a craken or half gufa or one of these monsters
Speaker 1: of the seas that would supposedly um uh wrapped their
Speaker 1: arms around the entire ship and drag it to the
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the ocean. Um. So I think
Speaker 1: that the cea Reek and as a possible literal account
Speaker 1: of um uh, this this feared um, mythic and yet
Speaker 1: real monster that everyone dreaded um and always left kind
Speaker 1: of of tell tale odor uh. And it's weak. Throughout
Speaker 1: this section, I was just you know, trying to you know,
Speaker 1: put myself in the mindset, possible mindset of let's say,
Speaker 1: you know, a Norse seamen. Uh, you know, witnessing this,
Speaker 1: smelling these creatures, you know, and encountering uh, you know,
Speaker 1: firsthand and then secondhand knowledge of them. Uh. It's really
Speaker 1: really remarkable. Well and and um frightening. Yes, of course
Speaker 1: the city is frightening enough, since we all know that
Speaker 1: humans aren't meant to be able to see in the
Speaker 1: natural sense. We tend to sink uh. And we else
Speaker 1: know that way down deep there are monsters like the
Speaker 1: vampire squids from Hell and giants, squids, cools attack our ships. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I love how this is a recurring theme in
Speaker 1: the book, talking about our relationship with the sea, our
Speaker 1: relationship then with squid, and then the idea of the squid,
Speaker 1: and of course that leads us to the squid gods.
Speaker 1: So when when even when I say squid gods, I
Speaker 1: know many listeners are probably thinking of of a certain
Speaker 1: fictional deity that will mention in a moment here. But
Speaker 1: there is a squid deity in Polynesian traditions, right well. Um,
Speaker 1: I hesitate to speak authoritatively about another culture, UM, but
Speaker 1: Polynesian culture is very close to the ocean UM. And
Speaker 1: from what I was able to UM understand from my
Speaker 1: own very amateurish UM investigation, is that there are prayers
Speaker 1: to Knola, who described as a god of the squid. UM.
Speaker 1: Does not seem that that god is actually a squid,
Speaker 1: but is perhaps represented by a squid us, since it
Speaker 1: would be inappropriate to say uh the god's name directly literally.
Speaker 1: But it is the case that also that, as in
Speaker 1: many UH cultures, UM, there are certain um beings that
Speaker 1: serve as family guardians UH, which can ward off threats
Speaker 1: on bring um good fortune UH to particular families. These these,
Speaker 1: of course, these guardians would be revered among those would
Speaker 1: be the squid UM, and in that regard, one of
Speaker 1: my happiest discoveries UM. But I was researching UM for
Speaker 1: the book UH. Well the modern New Zealand poet there
Speaker 1: in Kamali Um, who invokes um agents polity Nesian traditions
Speaker 1: in his poetry. UM, he called upon guardian squids um
Speaker 1: to rejuvenate UM his culture UH that has been has
Speaker 1: subsuved by the Western views by commercial exploitation of non
Speaker 1: human life UM. And so his his songs about UH
Speaker 1: squids UM, about a squid becoming a man whose tentacles
Speaker 1: then become dreadlocks, who then chances these these rejuvenating songs UM,
Speaker 1: they've become chance calling up this this, this agents UM
Speaker 1: UH life, this ancient um um um familiarity UH. And
Speaker 1: UM let's say companionship or guardianship among animals, or let's
Speaker 1: let's just put this way, an ancient community among humans
Speaker 1: and other creatures UH that perhaps can um rectify some
Speaker 1: of the ills caused by UM western exploitation UM and
Speaker 1: Western views that that UM squid intelligence cannot be UM
Speaker 1: compared to human intelligence. That has to be less than
Speaker 1: intelligence to enable us uh to exploit them just for
Speaker 1: their nerve fibers or for their flesh. Well, I feel
Speaker 1: like that that would that would almost be a fitting
Speaker 1: end to the interview right there. But I have to,
Speaker 1: of course ask you about about the squid in in
Speaker 1: literature in particular, and some of the the the weirder
Speaker 1: weird fiction of of of the twenty and the twenty
Speaker 1: one century. And again there's a lot in the book.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ask you about everything. I encourage our
Speaker 1: our listeners to pick up a copy and dive in themselves.
Speaker 1: But Uh, one of the big ones you, of course,
Speaker 1: discusses Jules Vernes treatment of the giant squid in twenty
Speaker 1: tho Leagues under the Sea. How essential is this novel
Speaker 1: to pop culture visions of the giant squid? Oh, well,
Speaker 1: it's it's enormously important. Um. In anyways, Verne uh does
Speaker 1: just the reverse of what uh stadings group uh did.
Speaker 1: Um so that and the narratives. The main character, Professor
Speaker 1: Aronnax who was a natural historian UM, gives an account
Speaker 1: of the giant squids that she sees from inside the
Speaker 1: submarine that um uh led by the evil captain Nemo
Speaker 1: UM and he gives Aaron Axes descriptions very um accurate, empirical,
Speaker 1: uh dispassionate description. But then almost immediately that scene turned
Speaker 1: into um uh very exciting, dramatic account where the squids
Speaker 1: are attacking the Nautilus um and uh they become the
Speaker 1: um repellent embodiment of the old myths um and who
Speaker 1: who are who trying to pull on Aaronax's companion, the
Speaker 1: harpoonist ned Land from the from the strip until Captain
Speaker 1: Nemo hacks off the tentacle of the squid um and
Speaker 1: so on. Uh. Ned Land is almost topped in two
Speaker 1: by the the the beak, the giant beak of the
Speaker 1: monsters squid. So really, what Verne is able to accomplish
Speaker 1: there is making something seem something seems scientific uh into
Speaker 1: a uh a rejuvenation of the old myths of the
Speaker 1: craken of the sea monsters. Uh. So we end up
Speaker 1: with UM a decidedly modern, empirical kind of dread on
Speaker 1: a modern kind of anxiety. That so that we can
Speaker 1: name what these creatures are uh and still feel that
Speaker 1: that oh yikes, if I've been rowed into the sea,
Speaker 1: they'll definitely rap hole of me and shot me in
Speaker 1: half with their giant beak. UM. So that that's really
Speaker 1: uh lay the groundwork, as as yourself set for much
Speaker 1: of the later kinds of stories that describe UM space
Speaker 1: aliens coming to the world and destroying the world. Um
Speaker 1: and of course those aliens all or squits. Yeah that
Speaker 1: that you of course you have bring up HP Lovecraft's
Speaker 1: Cthulhu and The Call of Cthulu, which I think most
Speaker 1: of our listeners are probably familiar with. But then you
Speaker 1: also touched on a work by William Hope Hodgson, The
Speaker 1: Boats of Glenn Carrigg. And I've read Hodgson's The Night Land,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't familiar with this one. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us a little about it? And it's rolled in squid
Speaker 1: related weird fiction. First of all, I really have to
Speaker 1: give a shout up to my um great friend Tim Murphy,
Speaker 1: who is not only a lover of squid of back
Speaker 1: to almost as much as I am, but also an
Speaker 1: expert on Hodgson, this book and weird fixing fiction generally. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he's he's just finishing a book on Hodgson. UM
Speaker 1: and the short the story of the Books of Glenn
Speaker 1: Carrig um uh come from the the voice of John Winterstraw,
Speaker 1: who's the narrator who's basically telling a kind of sailor's
Speaker 1: story of having once um uh encounters strange monsters at sea. UM. Basically,
Speaker 1: what happens in in his strange his sailor's story is
Speaker 1: that his ship UM, the Glenn Carrick, gets caught in
Speaker 1: a big field of seaweed let's say, probably something like
Speaker 1: the Sargasso Sea. And it's worth noting parenthetically that Hodgson
Speaker 1: UM just spent quite a good time and the merchant marine.
Speaker 1: So he was familiar with ships UM. He was worried
Speaker 1: familiar with UM ship war uh and with these kinds
Speaker 1: of tales that sailors telemone another UM. But he also
Speaker 1: was interested in UM that the category of of fiction UH,
Speaker 1: it's called weird weird fiction. UM. So while the game
Speaker 1: terrig is caught in um this Sargassas Sea or just
Speaker 1: a field of seaweed um UM, the sailors began to
Speaker 1: to um threat because they encounter other ships that have
Speaker 1: been obviously trapped there so long they've just become uh
Speaker 1: skeleton ships. Until finally they drift towards of what seems
Speaker 1: to be an island UH, and they try to um
Speaker 1: set up a residence on the island UM. And then
Speaker 1: UH winter Strong notices of a few times he looks
Speaker 1: over the side of a boat um. And the title
Speaker 1: of the uh novel comes from the fact that the
Speaker 1: sailors escape from the ship from the land Carrick and
Speaker 1: the ships and boats which they rode towards the island.
Speaker 1: So while he's in one of these boats, winter Straw
Speaker 1: looks over the side and he sees a white human
Speaker 1: like face staring back up at him. Uh. The course
Speaker 1: um scares the Jesus out of him. Uh. And then
Speaker 1: once they get on the island, the sailors begin to
Speaker 1: encounter other beings. Uh. There seem to be encampments of
Speaker 1: squid like characters. UM seems that perhaps these squid monsters
Speaker 1: are traveling underneath the island and subterranean caverns and showing
Speaker 1: up on land uh and attacking the fortified of the sailors. UH.
Speaker 1: And the the attacks happened um uh nightly over a
Speaker 1: standard time UH, even to the point that that the
Speaker 1: sailor has become exhausted. UH. And they said look out,
Speaker 1: hoping to to war off more attacks. Winter Straw numerous
Speaker 1: points looks out to sea and he can see the
Speaker 1: uh squid monsters swarming into the island and um what
Speaker 1: he describes as discipline formations. So it's the squid army
Speaker 1: coming to attack the marooned sailors uh and the disturbing
Speaker 1: faulty there and they're really intriguing paulity. And I think
Speaker 1: this is what Hodge and what makes Hodges and such
Speaker 1: an interesting writer and much of his work um uh
Speaker 1: is that he really probes the question of alien intelligence. UM.
Speaker 1: What what a lot of what you and I have
Speaker 1: been talking about in the past few minutes. UM. In
Speaker 1: this regard, we could even think back, perhaps to the
Speaker 1: squid jokes. UM. That might not be funny to us,
Speaker 1: because these disciplined military formations of squids uh would seem
Speaker 1: to demonstrate uh high intelligence, very sophisticated intelligence, and an
Speaker 1: intelligence that's directed at us humans in a way that
Speaker 1: is about as discomforting as I think is possible, and
Speaker 1: that is thinking of us humans as the resources for
Speaker 1: a squid economy. UH. So the question would be what
Speaker 1: use would humans be to a squid sibilant zation? How
Speaker 1: can humans be exploited by squid intelligence? UM? And that
Speaker 1: really goes against everything that UM we want to say
Speaker 1: about ourselves and relation to our fellow creatures uh and
Speaker 1: about our view of ourselves as UH. The only dominant
Speaker 1: intelligent force on the planet. And I think it's it's
Speaker 1: as my Tim Murphy suggests and brought his discussion of
Speaker 1: weird fiction, UM, since weird fiction is pretty far removed
Speaker 1: from let's a mainstream fiction, that's the kind of question
Speaker 1: that weird fiction can ask that other forms of of
Speaker 1: literary inquiry or other forms of scientific um or just
Speaker 1: oracle inquiry really cannot venture into. UH. And that's I
Speaker 1: think the value of weird fiction and UM the value
Speaker 1: of learning how to read um the myths and legends
Speaker 1: of ancient uh times and the um uh theological accounts
Speaker 1: of other cultures in a less skeptical way, perhaps in
Speaker 1: a more open minded sense of of seeing that maybe
Speaker 1: we're not the only intelligence and maybe there are other
Speaker 1: ways of of engaging intelligently with the world. Excellent. Well, uh,
Speaker 1: you know. Finally, one last question here after reading the book,
Speaker 1: I have a couple of guesses about what your answer
Speaker 1: might be. But do you have a favorite squid species? Oh? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I don't even have to have state. UM my favorite
Speaker 1: squid UM is a little apart from the traditional favorite
Speaker 1: squid um. The favorite squid I think it generally is um.
Speaker 1: The giant squid because of all the lore uh that's
Speaker 1: growing up around over the millennia. But I really became
Speaker 1: fascinated by the Humboldt squid UM the um, the filicus
Speaker 1: gigas right, which is about five ft long. UM. It's
Speaker 1: also referred to as the red devil because it has
Speaker 1: plenty of lore of its own. UM. So that we
Speaker 1: hear over over again. UM. Sailors fall from the boats UM,
Speaker 1: they're fishing boats, and they're immediately devoured by swarms of
Speaker 1: of the Humboldt squids who chumped them to pieces. UM
Speaker 1: and UH. There there are videos on YouTube of of
Speaker 1: underwater cameraman being attacked by uh one of these five
Speaker 1: ft long squids coming after him and ripping his oxygen
Speaker 1: hose and and so on. UM. And of course, these
Speaker 1: these are the squids that um defy explanation and their
Speaker 1: ability to pass through UM areas of the ocean where
Speaker 1: there is there is no action uh and and where
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be able to go, and yet
Speaker 1: they do. UM. And they're also hunted in large numbers
Speaker 1: for their giant axons UH and UM and their flesh
Speaker 1: and their fears. And I think because of their adaptability, uh,
Speaker 1: their voraciousness. Um. And I'll just add this one detail. Um,
Speaker 1: there's one um weird weird lead of delightful video of
Speaker 1: sub scientists putting a camera on a humble squid to
Speaker 1: see how it interacts with other humbold squids or what
Speaker 1: it does way down and the ocean depth. Uh. But
Speaker 1: the video only lasts a few seconds because you can
Speaker 1: tell the squid is descending and then immediately another squid
Speaker 1: approaches and Egypt. So the three blank um. So that
Speaker 1: that aggression, even to um, cannibalism of of one's um schoolmates,
Speaker 1: of maybe one even once family, that's consumable. Um. All
Speaker 1: that is alien and it's right to the heart of
Speaker 1: why I wanted to write the book. Excellent. Well again
Speaker 1: for everyone out there that the book is Squid. It
Speaker 1: is part of Reactions Animal series. It's available in physical
Speaker 1: and digital formats. And and now that I know that
Speaker 1: you also have one on the Fox, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to pick that up as well. Uh. I'm instantly thinking
Speaker 1: of all the various folklores funding the Fox and it's
Speaker 1: secretive nature. Oh great, right, and just just go to
Speaker 1: plug out. Let me say that, Uh, there are hundreds
Speaker 1: um different animals covers and Reactions series. Um. And really
Speaker 1: all those books have have a great deal to offer. Um.
Speaker 1: They all all the different authors have their own approaches
Speaker 1: to particular animals. Um. Not everyone who's trained in literature
Speaker 1: as I am. There, scientists, sociologists, historians, um, journalists, um
Speaker 1: you name it. Uh. So many people have been intrigued
Speaker 1: by how to how to talk about an animals and
Speaker 1: what it means to try to understand the relevance of
Speaker 1: one animal to human life and culture. Excellent. Well, than
Speaker 1: thanks for being on the show, Martin. Sure, thank you
Speaker 1: are inviting me. I really appreciate it. All right, Thanks
Speaker 1: again to Martin Wallon for taking time out of his
Speaker 1: day to chat with me again. The book is Squid
Speaker 1: from one part of the Reaction Animal series, which also
Speaker 1: includes Wallon's book on the Fox. Wallon's other works include
Speaker 1: Whose Dog Are You? The Technology of Dog Breeds and
Speaker 1: The Aesthetics of Modern Human Canine Relations and A City
Speaker 1: of Health, Fields of Disease, Revolutions in the Poetry, Medicine,
Speaker 1: and philosophy of Romanticism. As always, if you want to
Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind,
Speaker 1: you can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed, which will get wherever you find your podcast.
Speaker 1: Core science and culture episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays,
Speaker 1: listener mail on Monday's short form Artifact or Monster Fact
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Friday, we set aside most serious
Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird
Speaker 1: House Cinema. If you'd like to reach out to me
Speaker 1: or Joe or any of us here at the show,
Speaker 1: simply drop us an email at contact at stuff to
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind
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