1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hi, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and it's just me today. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Joe is away from work, so I reached out to 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: Martin Wallen, Professor emeritus at Oklahoma State University, an author 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: of numerous books, including the one book Squid, part of 7 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: the Reaction Animal series that will be discussing here today. 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: The book is out in both digital and physical forms, 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: and I highly recommend it as it dives into not 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: only science and natural history, but also mythology, folklore, and literature. 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview 12 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: and discuss all of this with Martin. Hi, Martin, welcome 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you very much. Your book, Squid, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: part of Reactions Animal series, came out last year, and uh, 15 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: as I started reading in our ease, this is exactly 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: the sort of book that we'd love to discuss on 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: the show. So if I make cobble together a couple 18 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: of questions here, where did your interest in cephalopods come from? 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: And how did this book come together? Right? Well, that's 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: that's a nice question to be good with. UM. I 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: had written UM two other books about animals UM, one 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: about foxes, which is also part of the Reaction Animal series. 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: UM and I've written a book about dogs UM. The 24 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: book but dogs I actually started before the fox book, 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: and that really arose out of UM relationships I've had 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: with horses UM. Oddly enough, but because I've been around 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: horses for a long time, I've increasingly begun to wonder 28 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: how to engage with UM or how to write about 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: an animal UH with whom we half engaged in a 30 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: completely non verbal way UM and most effectively UH through 31 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: touch UM and other forms of sensory perception. UM. And 32 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: there's a mode of being on horses as known as 33 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: being quiet UM. But I could never quite work out 34 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: our way to deal with that, So UM and I 35 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: began thinking more pointedly about my relationship with dogs and 36 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: how we interact with dogs generally, which led me to 37 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: think about relationships with non domestic animals like foxes and 38 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: so on. UM and then UM I began to think, well, 39 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: what about preachers that are even more UM alien to 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: us creatures We probably don't interact with UM on a 41 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: daily level UH the way we interact with UM domestic 42 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: animals or even the wild animals that might be passing 43 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: through our neighborhood UM, and I really began to question 44 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: what animal might I um explore just in a perhaps 45 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: a theoretical way uh that would enable me to at 46 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: tackle questions like, umbly, what is it like to be 47 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: in a world with unknown, unknowable creatures not only once 48 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: we have to remain quiet about, but once we can 49 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: barely even begin speaking about. Um. And so I started 50 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: exploring squids uh and found them enticingly bizarre uh and 51 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: enticingly weird um and really just took up a series 52 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: of questions about about those strange, odd animals and how 53 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: um human cultures have over the millennia tried to describe them, 54 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: or account for them, or express their anxieties about them 55 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: and so on. And that's where I is up. Yeah. 56 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: I really love the way that you you tackle the 57 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: subject of of the of the animal of the squid 58 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: in this book, because you you know, you approach it 59 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: from the you know, the philosophical and the naturalist viewpoint. 60 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: You get into the scientific research both um current and 61 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: UM and and of the previous century and so forth, 62 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: and then then you get into this idea of of 63 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: of literary treatment mythological treatment, etcetera. So it's a it's 64 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: I love the net that you cast in this. But 65 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: you begin with Aristotle in the fourth century BC philosopher's 66 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: attempts to understand and chronicle cephalopods. What did Aristotle get 67 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: right and what did he get wrong? Well, first of all, 68 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: I by push someone an ancient writer like Aristotle is 69 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: that he's really working within his cultural context. So in 70 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: his view and in the view of let's say, the 71 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: classical Greek world, he got pertually everything right. Um. What 72 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: we would see that he got uh wrong in that 73 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: regard is when he describes the semple plods um as bluntless, 74 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: because of course they're not bloodless. They simply have a 75 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: different color of blood than um most of those terrestrial 76 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: animals um. And um. What he makes uh references to 77 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: certain qualities, like the fact that they lay imperfect eggs um, 78 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: because we think, well, those are squid eggs, and they're 79 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: appropriate to squids, and they're like squids, uh, And that 80 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: they're aquious. But by imperfectly means um that's the term 81 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: he uses it in reference to other animals as well. 82 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: By perfect he really means that the eggs um don't 83 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: remain uh, don't stay keep the same appearance um that 84 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: they have when they're first laid by the mother squid. 85 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: O the way, let's say chicken eggs are UM. Lizard 86 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: eggs basically are laid as hard shelled eggs, and say 87 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: that way until they're hatched. UM. So that seems like, um, 88 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: something incorrect in our thinking, UM, but it's actually appropriate 89 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: to Aristotle's um uh conceptual view of the world. Well, 90 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: we generally UM say that Aristotle got right, of course, 91 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: UH his physical descriptions of of really all the animals 92 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: and everything he he writes about UH. And that's that's 93 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: that's really what UM puts him at the very foundation 94 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: of modern um natural philosophy and ultimately modern science, because 95 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,679 Speaker 1: he does pay a lot of attention and great care 96 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: to the physical appearance of squids UH. And and that 97 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: enables him to make certain rudimentary uh classifications among the 98 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: different kinds of squids. UM. It's also important to bear 99 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: in mind, and maybe this is on the wrong side, 100 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: but UM, it's more of a qualification that Aristyle, being 101 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: a Greek and a Greek of the fourth century BC, UM, 102 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: really stayed pretty close to shore Um. He most of 103 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: his observations of squids were done on the Isle of 104 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: Lesbos from the Gulf of kolani Um, rather than out 105 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: in the deeper waters. So that means that the squids 106 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: he saw were the smaller inshore varieties of squids, and 107 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: possibly some of the some of the larger varieties which 108 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: he probably would have seen on fisherman's boats or as 109 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: uh dead specimens that floated ashore um, and those would 110 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: have been less common to him. Uh. And so it 111 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: doesn't offer that many accounts of us those squids, and 112 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: nor does he really dealt into the differences between inshore 113 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: and the offshore squids. So uh no, that's that's what 114 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: I would say, is let's say right and wrong gish 115 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: about um accounts. Now you mentioned the fisherman, of course, 116 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: and that leads to the question like, what was the 117 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: culinary view of of of squids and their relatives during 118 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: Aristotle's time? Well, that's that's intriguing view. I think almost um, 119 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: everyone um who doesn't vegan has had calamari on our 120 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: different kinds of squid. Um. Squids are nice to eat, um, 121 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: and they were nice to eat then, except that the 122 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: ancient Greeks had a much more emp different view of 123 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: of what we call seafood um than than we do. 124 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: And that in biblemence comes from uh general general revolver 125 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: towards the sea, which was commonly referred to as being 126 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: simply perfidious because it was a dangerous place. Uh and 127 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: uh you could think you, being a human, could think 128 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: um down below the surface and never be seen again. Uh. 129 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: And fish, including squids um, were known to eat humans. 130 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: And so the idea of eating an animal that eats 131 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: humans uh just tends to stir the stomach, but also 132 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: tends to um rub against the philosophical if you have 133 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: madam madam psychosis, which would suggest that if um squids 134 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: eating humans, then we are essentially eating humans that have 135 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: been transformed and so squids by their digestive tract uh. 136 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: And that's something that that seemed to be immoral um 137 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: and and um culpable, so that people who did eat squids, 138 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: and they're numerous references to the um ethicals. Do people 139 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: who did squizz worse somehow morally suspect uh and somehow Um, 140 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: we're either indulgent or not to be frosted um. Part 141 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 1: of that sew I think it's gets um um exacerbated 142 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: later on by the high morality of someone like Plato 143 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: who really lives sort of titanical or had a puritanical 144 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: view of the world. Uh, and so he would keep 145 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: really condemned U. Some of the UM writers who focused 146 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: on their their diets and um what they enjoyed eating 147 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: like squids. So all it was it was people people 148 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: ate them almost certainly, but um they were unhappy about 149 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: eating them, at least in the Greek world. Uh. And notably, 150 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: there are very few um visual despictions of squids or 151 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: even marine life UM, apart from the sat dolphins until 152 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: pretty late in the Greek world. Now, why is there 153 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: so much terminological confusion concerning squids, octopuses, and cuttlefish and 154 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: classical literature? This is something you discussed in the book 155 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: right right. Well again that that largely comes from Aristotle 156 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: UM and who Aristotles, when he was describing the cephalopods 157 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: UM really grouped them all under the general general heading 158 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: of malakoi was basically means um um soft bodied creatures 159 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: or as I like to think, squishy, squishy creatures UM. 160 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: And he didn't go into that much detail, and distinguishing, 161 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: as I said earlier, the inshore from the offshore UMU squids. 162 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: He distinguishes UH squids from cuttlefishes and octopuses, but even 163 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: there he refers to UH polly plods UH. And then 164 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: he'll refer to the cuttle fishes, sometimes using the term 165 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: cps um UH and other times as polypus um and 166 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: other times as tooth is or other times still as 167 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: truth oaths UH. And as as later commentators and translators 168 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: UM are obviously confused about exactly which creature he was 169 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: referring to. UM. The confusion has us to do with 170 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: um occupuses, that does with the two decapods cuttle fishes 171 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: and squids UM and there um Aerosold say that the 172 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: he does, he does allow for a certain distinction, and 173 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: that is based on the quality of their flesh. So 174 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: cuttle fishes, which swim closer to shore, he says, UM 175 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: absorb more of the heart um surface hard substances of 176 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: the earth, so they have um a bone running through 177 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: their um bodies with the cuttle bone UM, and that 178 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: he referred to as the um cbi or the phobia 179 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: bone UM. And then the the squids He then just 180 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: referred to the tooth and the tooth tooth, And it's 181 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: hard really to know again what he meant by the 182 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: tooth is which has the ending i s and tooth oath, 183 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: which has the ending o s UM. But it does 184 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: seem that that that's largely my deduction as based on 185 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: UM lexicons and UH simply the fact that gave more 186 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: attention to the truth is UM that that one truths 187 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: refers to the instore crystals refers to the up floor UM. 188 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: So there's really a confusion of what he The confusion 189 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: is partly due to his his vagueness UM and his accounts, 190 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: and to the later confusion of UH of commentators and translators, 191 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: largely again because those commentators would themselves not have ventured 192 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: out into the sea to look at squids or for 193 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: that matter, of cold fishes or occupuses. But we're probably 194 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: writing and unlocked the libraries UH, copying or summarizing um 195 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: Aristotle's texts, so that that confusion does become pretty much 196 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:12,479 Speaker 1: um um a quality of squid or even m squishy 197 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: um uh. Natural history for the next many years, let's say, 198 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: the next thousand or so years, and as as you 199 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: later discussed in the book, and we still have what 200 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: what would encounter cases where something we're calling a squid 201 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: is actually not technically a squid. Right you mean the 202 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: um wasn't there? Uh when when you start talking about 203 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: the vampire squid. Oh yes, yes, yes, of course, um right, 204 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: technically that it is not a squid. That's it's actually 205 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: more of an octopod because it doesn't um, it doesn't 206 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: really have the same layout of of arms and testicles 207 00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: that squids do. Uh so yeah, so you're right us 208 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: that's one of the strangest um creatures um and also 209 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: a creature was one of the most delightful names of 210 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: the vampire squid from hell um. Uh yes, but almost 211 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: certainly as are let's at least possibly it's not actually 212 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: as squid. Yeah. I love the the illustrations we see 213 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: of this particular cephalobod in the book. One of them 214 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: I was really taken with. I hadn't seen there seen 215 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: this particular illustration before, but the artist almost it seemed 216 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: like they were trying to make the squid appear like 217 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: a skull. Am I alone in uh interpreting it this way? Yes, 218 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: I think that's that's sort of appropriate. That's that's I 219 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: believe carl Um illustration Um, oh no, I have right here. 220 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: It does look like skull um because it's it's black, 221 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: and it's it's in this particular stration, it's upside down, 222 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: so it has the sort of duelish mouth that seems 223 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: to be in sort of a hideous grin underneath two eyes. 224 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: And then there's a no socket. Right. That's that's that's 225 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: sort of a fastful rendition of vampires than now, going 226 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: back to the two ancient writings here Plenty of the Elder. 227 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: Of course, his accounts inevitably come up when anytime we're 228 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: discussing Western understandings of the natural world. And I was 229 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: really taken by a bit from Plenty that you discussed 230 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: in the book. Can you explain the proposed connection between 231 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: the quote lavish nature of liquid and large marine animal sizes? Well, 232 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: plenty um very much an air of Aristotle was describing 233 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: the world as as he thought, uh and describing the 234 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: world very much as a Roman. So when he looked 235 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: out onto bodies of water, lakes, rivers, and the sea, um, 236 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: he saw that there there there was a large form 237 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: that was basically being fed continually by rainfall and other 238 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: forms of precipitation. So that's that's the nourishment that he 239 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: sees taking place UM. And then he draws a basic 240 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: analogy between h two different realms of the world. On 241 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: the one hand, there's the terrestrial realm populated by humans 242 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: and land animals, and then the um aqueous world uh. 243 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: And she says every form of of of um uh 244 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: life that exists on land must also have its counterpart 245 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: in the sea uh and the cious realm. But because 246 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: the ocurious realm is more obviously nourished by precipitation uh 247 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: and is by precipitation, which is like uh, the acicus 248 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: realm than land is like precipitation UH. That means then 249 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: that the animals are nourished themselves more um than land 250 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: animals are, so they grow to greater uh scientists, even 251 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: monster sizes. And because water is more fluid, they also 252 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: are liable to take uh more varied shapes uh and 253 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: even diverged into a completely different animals that do not 254 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: exist on land. UM. So that analogy is central to 255 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: plenty kind of thinking about natural history UM. And it's 256 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: also a clear indication that he's thinking specilatively, since of 257 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: course you didn't have a bathosphere uh and couldn't see 258 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: the below the surface of the dark sea. Um. But 259 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: it's also on the basis of that that um uh 260 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: that later accounts of sea monsters of claimed to have 261 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: some basis in um natural history. In fact, I also 262 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: love a bit that you from Plenty that you share, 263 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: because this is one of those quotes that I guess 264 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: when you're when you're looking at things Plenty shared, I 265 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: guess sometimes you know second or third hand about things 266 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: in the world. Sometimes they may feel a bit detached 267 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: from the actual reality. But this is one of those 268 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: quotes that that I feel like actually after just speaks 269 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: across the ages and and matches up with like my 270 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: experience of seeing octopi in the wilder or any cephalopods 271 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: in an aquarium. And that is quote that squids are 272 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: virtually incomprehensible to those who have never seen one because 273 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: they continually shift their appearance by moving their arms and 274 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: changing colors. UM. I don't know about you, but I 275 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: thought that really had a real ring of solid truth 276 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: to it. Absolutely uh. And as I mentioned at the 277 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: very beginning, would my interests uh and squids Uh, it's 278 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: just that incomprehensibility, how can there be such an animal? 279 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: The simple the basic word supple pod the official term 280 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: for those whole group of animals, really means the head 281 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: of feet, right suffalo and then pod for feet. That 282 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 1: makes no sense, and that name encapsulates the oddness and strangeness, 283 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: the alien quality of of these these creatures. Um. And 284 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: they they really do challenge our basic sense So what 285 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: an animal should be like m or act like? Because 286 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: indeed they do change shape continually, they change colors continually, UM. 287 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: And they in many ways they should not exist. Uh. 288 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: There even questions that at various times in history about 289 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: whether they should be categorized as animals or instead as plants. Uh. 290 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: And so they've always been a real mystery uh and 291 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: a real challenge to our ability to create um taxonomies, 292 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: UM and explanations and based on categories of animals and 293 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: their relations to one another, because there's always the troublic 294 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 1: question of how do we do this head of feet 295 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: in relation to ourselves? Um? And who's backwards? Are we 296 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: built backwards or are they m Now you mentioned the mysterious, 297 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: and of course you spent a lot of time in 298 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: the book discussing mythologies and folklore concerning various cephalopods, and 299 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: of course you get into the into the giant squid 300 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: quite a bit as well. UM. So so getting more 301 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: into the scientific realm here, can you tell us what 302 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: role Japterese Steamstrup played in bridging squid myth and squid 303 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: science of the nineteenth century. Yeah, that's that's a great 304 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: question for UM. Lots of reasons UM stage up. It's 305 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: really the turning point from the tradition of UH, let's say, 306 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: squid lower based on legends and UM uncertainty UH and 307 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: the terminological vagueness that we were talking about two modern 308 00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: classifications that UM made possible scientific studies about squid since 309 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: cephalopods UM. So for a number of years, especially in 310 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: the North Atlantic area, there had been UM. Of course, 311 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: there were the legends of the creek and the big 312 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: monsters that swallowed up UM ships or that people would 313 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: mistake as islands and land on and perform religious rituals 314 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: and and then be swallowed up and dragged down to 315 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: the sea. UM. And those legends were intermixed with a 316 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: number of beachings of giant squids UH, the Artitude of 317 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 1: ducks UM and other sightings of squids UH. And there 318 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: were recorded as historically evince uh really starting um uh 319 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: and let's say the sixteenth century by Guillame Brondelas who 320 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: uh described um uh strange creatures that he referred to 321 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: as um monkfish are episcopal fish, and he uh illustrated 322 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: his roll delayed, that is, illustrated his accounts with drawings 323 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: of of um preachers that had fins instead of feet 324 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: and hands. But we're wearing a monk's habit or cardinals 325 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: miter um and that those sorts of accounts really verd 326 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: on on um uh my and uh fabulous accounts um. 327 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: But there was still an effort to provide some kind 328 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: of empirical credence to the existence of the unbelievable monsters um. 329 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: So as a number of sightings and beach things occurred. 330 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: By the middle of the nineteenth century, uh stain stroke 331 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: came along um and fortuitously no one gave him a 332 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: beak from one of the um uh giant squids that 333 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: had beached um and Uh. He delivered a lecture in 334 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four where he went through all the different 335 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: accounts of sea monsters by Rondelay Uh and others, and 336 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: he people are in the kind of a literary analysis 337 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: of all the descriptions um which had probably been um 338 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: um gathered by Rondalay and others from from fisherman's accounts 339 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: who tried to describe these bizarre creatures they had seen 340 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: UM and on the Statestrup then concluded that all these 341 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: accounts were referred to one very real creature. Uh. And 342 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: so after a lengthy series of extra jesys of these 343 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: various accounts, he quite dramatically um presented to his audience, 344 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: Uh this beak he had been given a very imposing 345 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: uh beak. A squid speak is like a hawk's beak 346 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: or a parents beak, So it's really sharp and curved 347 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: and mekets to tear flesh. Uh. So this is a 348 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: good size speak Uh. And he with that sort of 349 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: dramatic flourish of showing his audience to speak um, he 350 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: was really to to change the accounts of seafarers and 351 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: and let's say the legends of monsters into a verifiable 352 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: uh animal that could be given a scientific name. And 353 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: uh he's the one who then gave it the name 354 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: Arctutus ducks. Uh. And with that name, uh, he basically 355 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: cleared up the ambiguity that existence Aristotle and he uh 356 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: allowed for a focused and discipline study of UM of 357 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: squids based on UM, a real taxonomy, and a taxonomy 358 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: that lays out UM different genera of squids, different species 359 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: of squids, and is able to map their locations around 360 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: the world. So m in in short stage really marks 361 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: the transition from the world of myth and uncertainty and 362 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: ambiguity to the world of modern empirical study. Now, speaking 363 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: of modern study, one of the big topics that comes 364 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: up in all this, and you discussed in the book 365 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: of course, is the is the our attempts to understand 366 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: cephalopod intelligence UM, and you bring up some of our 367 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: responses to cephalopod intelligence and even the idea that they 368 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,239 Speaker 1: could be quote the primates of the sea. What are 369 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: what are the challenges and limits in play when it 370 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: comes to understanding the mind of the squid? Well, the 371 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: cheligence a player or or are great. Even even though 372 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: UH there is such thing as uh scientific study of 373 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: squids and uh um the science of squids is growing. 374 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: The taxonomy of squids is UM expanding exponentially as more 375 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: and more species in general are being discovered continually UM. 376 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, exactly what these creatures on 377 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: her still remains UM cheezing, because they're these strange creatures 378 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: whose heads consists of feet UM. But they also have 379 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: sizeable brains UM, and they show a real intelligence UM. 380 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: The marine biologists differ. Mather, as pointed out, I think 381 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: most valuable, valuably UM that squids exist in on courting 382 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: her hair worlds away from us UM. And even though 383 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: she says, even though their their brains may not have 384 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: quite the same UM structure as ours, they can still 385 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: be seen to work in analogous ways to our brains, 386 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: and therefore their intelligence can be seen to be somewhat analogous, 387 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: albeit bizarre. UM. It's worth noting that the squid brains 388 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: UM regulate movement through visual cues UM. That makes UM 389 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: their perception UM and their movement their response to that 390 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: perception almost simultaneous. In fact, so simultaneous has to be 391 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: virtually the same event. Whereas let's say, in humans, most 392 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: land creatures, UM, we perceived something and it might take 393 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: a second or two to to respond UH, squids perceive 394 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: and UH respond instantaneously. UH. Scientists have focused UM, particularly 395 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: on what they call it the giant act on a 396 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: very large nerve fiber that radiates throughout the wall of 397 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: the mantle the tubular part of the squid. UH. This 398 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: this nerve about a millimeter and diameter UH, really the 399 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: largest nerves of any any animal in the world. And 400 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: it's the size of the nerves that is able to 401 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 1: enables the squid to transmit um as perceptions from its 402 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: eyes and other receptors around this body instantaneously into as 403 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: musculature to move UH so that they can UM. They 404 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: can propel themselves by by shooting out streams of water 405 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: within milliseconds of of UM perceiving something that they want 406 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: to attack UH and UM their intelligence that really is 407 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: I think can cannon should be described as want of 408 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: movement onto one hand and predation on the other hand. 409 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: Or really that's that's us the same as well, because 410 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: they really are predators UH. And they are hyper sensitive 411 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: UM to the UM their environment. UM. They have a 412 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 1: number of organs and mechanisms for perception, not just their 413 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: eyes but long their their entire bodies UM that are 414 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: able to perceive well beyond our five sences. They don't 415 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: have hearing almost certainly, but they are able to perceive 416 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: um motion uh and motion and a very very fine 417 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: degree um. And they also then can uh famously change 418 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: colors um flash colors brilliantly illuminate themselves through chromatic fours, 419 00:34:55,560 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: which are essentially um facts of of pick miants that 420 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: cover their entire body uh and that can be um 421 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: contracted and um opened um will to change the color 422 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: of the skin UM. And as these sacs open and shut, 423 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: expand and contract um, they reveal uh some routiforms underneath, 424 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: and the routifors reflect light back uh as a kind 425 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: of iridescence that's a different kind of light, is more 426 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: of a polarized light, which we humans aren't really geared 427 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: to perceive. That we can see a kind of sheen 428 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: the way you would see on a soap bubble. And 429 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: these changes, these chromatophores are really controlled again by the 430 00:35:52,000 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: squid's eyes. So movement color changes are all instantaneous and 431 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: um very much part of squid intelligence, governed by astonishing 432 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: powers of perception, uh very dominant and and uh impressive 433 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: nervous system uh and a brain so to do them 434 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: as primates of the see they are again predators um 435 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: and they pretty much live not at the top of 436 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: the food chain, because of course they're eaten by many 437 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: other creatures. But uh, their intelligence uh and their athleticism 438 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: certainly makes them formidable. Uh so UH definitely puts them 439 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: at the top of many people's hierarchy than now. One 440 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: of the one of the things that you mentioned here 441 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: that really blew me away. You discuss handling and messengers 442 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: research into quote unquote squid talk in touch on their 443 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: idea that that the squid in particular may engage in 444 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: not only play, but dishonesty in communication. What are we 445 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: to make of this? Right? Right? That's that's that is 446 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: a delightful UM discovery by the scientists. UM. First of all, 447 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: uh zniverer Mather again UM has studied um what she 448 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: refers to as squiddish, the language of squids. UM just 449 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: categorized that through studying um various postures and light flashes 450 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: that squids uh make, so that she's able to come 451 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: up with something approaching a lexicon. UM. And for the 452 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: most part, UM, scientists and others UH look at the 453 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: lexicon as as UM simply being informational the way we 454 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: usually think of animal communication being informational. UM. Birds UM 455 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: UH squawk and chirp, perhaps to say, um, um, good morning, 456 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: or you and I are boyfriend and girlfriend, or there's 457 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: a predator close by or something like that. UM. And 458 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: if we think of if we start to think as 459 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: Roger Hanlon and John Messenger suggests that perhaps squids are 460 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: not simply communicating information, but they're creating misinformation UM disinformation UH. 461 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: That suggests that there's something else going on a higher 462 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: level of communication. And it suggests that there might even 463 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: be a let's say, a performative quality to uh squiddi 464 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: ish uh to squid communication, which is say, it's it's 465 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: not literal, it's not simply um informational um, but it's 466 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: something else UM. And that this honesty play a big role. 467 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: And let's say literary allusions. So the very very much 468 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: of literature UM does not simply consist of information UM 469 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 1: relayed about something. It's not simply uh the empirical um 470 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: descriptions of Aristotle, but it's suggestive UM, it's elusive UM. 471 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: It relies on puns um, and it can rely on jokes. UH. 472 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: So that suggestions that UM. Squids are not simply um, 473 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: let's say, unimaginative animals who are merely saying food here. 474 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: Pred sure there, but UM perhaps have the capacity for 475 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: UM joking UM or UM imagination. But then since qui 476 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: squids are undeniably major predators UM and even cannibals, we 477 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: have to ask, UH, what are there jokes or what 478 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: are they imagining? UM? Are they making jokes about us, 479 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: which is discomforty um UM? Or are they making jokes 480 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: with a punchline I will you um? Or if they're 481 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: jokes are not found funny by other squids, will they 482 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: be eaten? UM? That's a poling room for UM jokes 483 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: of our own. And also, UM worry that's that's amazing. UM. 484 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: Now a lot of that, I guess we're talking about information, 485 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, bicephalopods for cephalopods. But but coming back to 486 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: the topic of what cephalopods can do for us. UH, 487 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: that's something that that certainly drives a lot of the 488 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,760 Speaker 1: research you point out, UM, what are the brightest possibilities 489 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: here and what are the arguments for for eating cephalopods 490 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: even if they might be primates of the sea. Because 491 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: I know that, UM. I know people who, for instance, 492 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: are pastytarians but don't eat cephalopods or make a distinct 493 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: choice not to eat them. Based on some of the 494 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: intelligence research out there, well, the argument for UM eating 495 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: UM self pods is simply they're enormous numbers UM they 496 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: they UM they swarmed throughout personally UM all UH oceans 497 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: and ease except for the Black Sea UM and and 498 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: alive quantities, and they are highly are the fisheries UH 499 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: years around squids are very successful in catching large quantities 500 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: of them UM and that's important UM in this time 501 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:33,720 Speaker 1: of industrial fishing, when many species of a qualtify life 502 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: are being simply wiped out through the drag netting and 503 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 1: other forms of industrial fishing, so that um it really 504 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: has become a mass produced kind of of food which 505 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: are depleted, specially everything squids seems to be impervious to that, 506 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 1: or at least so far UM and UM. That's that's 507 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: really the argument. I'm I'm gonna hold off on what 508 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: it means to something of intelligence for just a second, 509 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:19,320 Speaker 1: because there are other possibilities or um ways humans have 510 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: sought to use to exploit UH squid UH. One of 511 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: course is they're the giant axon um, so that scientists 512 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: have begun to harvest squids just for that nerve UM 513 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: and the hopes of using them to uh read juvenate 514 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: UM humans who have become paralyzed, who have lost neurological functions. Uh. 515 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: And that's that's a big hope for the pharmaceutical industry, 516 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: or even suggestions that because of the squids um a 517 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 1: capacity change colors that maybe um, some UM genius will 518 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: find a way of transferring that used by the military 519 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: industrial complex to allow UM let's say, camouflage in the battlefield, 520 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: so that um um just as in phil Kate Dick's 521 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:33,400 Speaker 1: novels Scanner Darkly, where the policemen where these scanner suits 522 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: that change their physical configuration completely. Uh. So let's say 523 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 1: warriors could change the films completely so that nobody could 524 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: see them. UM. So that sounds pretty far fetched, but 525 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: UM it's it's perhaps on at least the table um 526 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: as for eating them, or let's say it's loading them 527 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: in any sense UM for the military or U for 528 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: um uh medical uses. I think those arguments really wrestled 529 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 1: doing them as resources UM, overlooking at intelligence UM or 530 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: best as or at least disqualifying UM squid intelligence being 531 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: less than human intelligence. UM. It's long been our tendency 532 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: to say, uh, whatever is alien to us. Whatever is 533 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,360 Speaker 1: different from me. Uh, it cannot be as good as 534 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: I am. Um And um, it can't even be real 535 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: because it's not human, it's not really intelligent. Uh. And 536 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: I might I might even mentioned that. Um. I submitted 537 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: my books to the press. One of the editors took 538 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: real issue with my prossses to the squid humor. Um. 539 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: She said, Uh, that's impossible. There's no such thing as 540 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: humor in the animal world. Has never been documented. Um. Well, UM, 541 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I disagree, as I said, I spent 542 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: plenty time around forces, and I know that they could 543 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: be real jokesters. Um. And I know dogs can be jokesters. 544 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: And uh, fox hunters around the world will tell you 545 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: about foxes playing real tricks. Um. And So there is 546 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: such thing as humor um. But it's hard to fathom 547 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: of what self podh sepopod intelligence would be. But UM, 548 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: I think it's also important to recognize. I'll just um 549 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 1: challenge your farshating friends UM further and say, well, certainly 550 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: all kinds of fish, all creatures of intelligence. Um. And 551 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves if it's just different from ours, 552 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: or if it really is lesser than ours, which would 553 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: justify as eating a lesser being. UM. I don't know. Now, 554 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: you of course get into cephalopod evolution, uh, taking us 555 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: back six hundred million years. But but then something special 556 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,600 Speaker 1: seems to have occurred during the struggle with fish and 557 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: marine reptiles. Can you describe what what what what we 558 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:39,439 Speaker 1: think happened here? UM? Well, of course at all highly expectative, UM. 559 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,759 Speaker 1: But around four hundred and fifty million years ago, I 560 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: believe this is what you're referring to, UH, what is 561 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 1: always been called as the Devonian extinction, when UM pretty 562 00:47:52,960 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: much all almost all life UM disappeared UM, and slowly 563 00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: animals began to reappear UM in in various parts of 564 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:14,280 Speaker 1: the world, but decidedly not in the deepest oceans because 565 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: oxygen levels there are are low. But stuffle pods seem 566 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:28,360 Speaker 1: to do okay. Uh. They moved offshore. UM. Squids in particular, 567 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: UM moved into the deeper water. So that UH we 568 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: again look back to Aristotle's to um accounts of the 569 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: inshore and the offshore squids. Uh. The offshore squids grew 570 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: bigger because squids generally lost UM, their shells, their molusky 571 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:56,440 Speaker 1: and shells UM. They UH we're able to move faster 572 00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: UM and they didn't have the bones that fishes had, UH, 573 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: so that they were able to um prey upon the 574 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:13,399 Speaker 1: fish that previously preyed upon them because boneless squids were 575 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 1: able to move much faster and react more quickly than 576 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,920 Speaker 1: bony fishes could UM. So that was that was one 577 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: of the theoretically one of the key steps in the 578 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: development of of or squids to somewhat modern squids that 579 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: we see fairly recently, relatively speaking. And I've already alluded 580 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: to changes going on in the oceans today. Is there 581 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: a cephalopod explosion happening in the world today? Are we 582 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 1: seeing changes in cephalopod populations? Well, it certainly seems so 583 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 1: in many ways um UH. Popular presses around the world 584 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: have referred to squid blooms or squids invasions, where large 585 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: populations of supple pods show up in a particular area 586 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: UM and it seems that that could be happening because 587 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: of of UM climate change, so that UM the occurrence 588 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,760 Speaker 1: are shifting. That that's one explanation for why UM humble 589 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,280 Speaker 1: squids have shown up in large numbers in certain years 590 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: around Monterey Bay, California. UM uh and have social large 591 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: numbers that they have washed ashore UH and and and 592 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, along by the by the millions UM, causing 593 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:57,280 Speaker 1: course um serious sidetic issues. UM. It's also possible because 594 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 1: of which to say that the explosion of squids also 595 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 1: possible UM because of of the depletion of other fish UM, 596 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: of fish that might be eating squids or competing with 597 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:19,840 Speaker 1: squids for um other food. UM. Maybe um whales have 598 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: been uh depopulated enough to allow for explosions of squid. 599 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: But it's also possible that people are starting to pay 600 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: more attention to squids um. Uh. When there are putitive 601 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,960 Speaker 1: squid bloom somewhere, then fishing fleets will swarm to a 602 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 1: particular area um and of fish that area heavily UM. 603 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:52,359 Speaker 1: And Since squids have a fairly short line of very 604 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: short life, generally about a year UM, they can disappear 605 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:02,319 Speaker 1: and then reappear again uh later on, and as they 606 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: move through the currents, they can appear in a different 607 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: place uh and again in large numbers UM I just 608 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:15,719 Speaker 1: mentioned uh squid breed infant large numbers that scientists have 609 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,800 Speaker 1: referred to them as the protein pump of the sea. 610 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: So that ass say UH breed in one part of 611 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 1: the sea and then moved to another part of the sea, 612 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:32,960 Speaker 1: die and decompose. UH. They provide nutrients for other fish, 613 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:40,439 Speaker 1: other aquatic live forms UM so that UM they moved 614 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: around in that way as well, UM so UM. At 615 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 1: any rate, it seems that squids are highly adaptable if 616 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,360 Speaker 1: as climate change happens. UM. Squids, more than bony fish 617 00:52:54,680 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 1: UM and other UM aquatic creatures UM, are very willing 618 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,839 Speaker 1: to change. UH. They're very willing to move into areas 619 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 1: that had previously been thought to be incompatible with squids 620 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:18,080 Speaker 1: or cephalopods or really any form of life UM. And 621 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,040 Speaker 1: I think that the bottom line there's we see that 622 00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:31,520 Speaker 1: almost certainly squids will endure than now. Obviously, I love 623 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,799 Speaker 1: the section in the book on folklore e squids and 624 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,400 Speaker 1: how interconnected the folklore is with our our just basic 625 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: understanding of the various species. And I think our listeners 626 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: will particularly enjoy this section of the book as well. 627 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 1: And I can't possibly ask you about all of it, 628 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,200 Speaker 1: but one example I wanted to bring up. It was 629 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,919 Speaker 1: the the idea you share of the North Sea Reek, 630 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,280 Speaker 1: and the idea that the Sea Reek might be linked 631 00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: to ammonia in the giant squid body. Can you describe this? 632 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: That's a a slight um connection UM that I hope 633 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm not um making too much of. But it is 634 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 1: the case that the giant squid, artitude of ducts made 635 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:21,760 Speaker 1: famous by stains, ropen and others um, possesses um um 636 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,880 Speaker 1: um ammonia chloride and in its um um and it's 637 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,440 Speaker 1: flesh uh. And the reason for that is that these 638 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: are animals that live very deep in the ocean um 639 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:40,880 Speaker 1: and the ammonia chloride provides buoyancy so that they don't 640 00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: um float to the surface where they wouldn't want to 641 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,839 Speaker 1: be because they be eaten by birds or whatever. UM, 642 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 1: and also prevents them from sinking down to the bottom. 643 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:57,320 Speaker 1: All squids have ammonia chloride um. Really just a giant 644 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:04,319 Speaker 1: squid and a few other species in general. But in 645 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:10,279 Speaker 1: much of the folklore of squids uh folklore extending up 646 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 1: into the novels of the modern era, the reek of 647 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:23,400 Speaker 1: ammonia is very much an aspect of an encounter worth 648 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 1: a craken or half gufa or one of these monsters 649 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 1: of the seas that would supposedly um uh wrapped their 650 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: arms around the entire ship and drag it to the 651 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the ocean. Um. So I think 652 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,600 Speaker 1: that the cea Reek and as a possible literal account 653 00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:58,239 Speaker 1: of um uh, this this feared um, mythic and yet 654 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:04,560 Speaker 1: real monster that everyone dreaded um and always left kind 655 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: of of tell tale odor uh. And it's weak. Throughout 656 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,880 Speaker 1: this section, I was just you know, trying to you know, 657 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:17,359 Speaker 1: put myself in the mindset, possible mindset of let's say, 658 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, a Norse seamen. Uh, you know, witnessing this, 659 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,840 Speaker 1: smelling these creatures, you know, and encountering uh, you know, 660 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,840 Speaker 1: firsthand and then secondhand knowledge of them. Uh. It's really 661 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: really remarkable. Well and and um frightening. Yes, of course 662 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 1: the city is frightening enough, since we all know that 663 00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,799 Speaker 1: humans aren't meant to be able to see in the 664 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,520 Speaker 1: natural sense. We tend to sink uh. And we else 665 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: know that way down deep there are monsters like the 666 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:55,959 Speaker 1: vampire squids from Hell and giants, squids, cools attack our ships. Yeah. 667 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,440 Speaker 1: And I love how this is a recurring theme in 668 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,040 Speaker 1: the book, talking about our relationship with the sea, our 669 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,800 Speaker 1: relationship then with squid, and then the idea of the squid, 670 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: and of course that leads us to the squid gods. 671 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,239 Speaker 1: So when when even when I say squid gods, I 672 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,760 Speaker 1: know many listeners are probably thinking of of a certain 673 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: fictional deity that will mention in a moment here. But 674 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 1: there is a squid deity in Polynesian traditions, right well. Um, 675 00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: I hesitate to speak authoritatively about another culture, UM, but 676 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: Polynesian culture is very close to the ocean UM. And 677 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: from what I was able to UM understand from my 678 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:51,000 Speaker 1: own very amateurish UM investigation, is that there are prayers 679 00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 1: to Knola, who described as a god of the squid. UM. 680 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 1: Does not seem that that god is actually a squid, 681 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,360 Speaker 1: but is perhaps represented by a squid us, since it 682 00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:15,400 Speaker 1: would be inappropriate to say uh the god's name directly literally. 683 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: But it is the case that also that, as in 684 00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:28,640 Speaker 1: many UH cultures, UM, there are certain um beings that 685 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: serve as family guardians UH, which can ward off threats 686 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:41,800 Speaker 1: on bring um good fortune UH to particular families. These these, 687 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:46,479 Speaker 1: of course, these guardians would be revered among those would 688 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:51,720 Speaker 1: be the squid UM, and in that regard, one of 689 00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:57,960 Speaker 1: my happiest discoveries UM. But I was researching UM for 690 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 1: the book UH. Well the modern New Zealand poet there 691 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:10,000 Speaker 1: in Kamali Um, who invokes um agents polity Nesian traditions 692 00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:16,480 Speaker 1: in his poetry. UM, he called upon guardian squids um 693 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:22,920 Speaker 1: to rejuvenate UM his culture UH that has been has 694 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 1: subsuved by the Western views by commercial exploitation of non 695 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:37,680 Speaker 1: human life UM. And so his his songs about UH 696 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:45,000 Speaker 1: squids UM, about a squid becoming a man whose tentacles 697 00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 1: then become dreadlocks, who then chances these these rejuvenating songs UM, 698 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: they've become chance calling up this this, this agents UM 699 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 1: UH life, this ancient um um um familiarity UH. And 700 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:12,040 Speaker 1: UM let's say companionship or guardianship among animals, or let's 701 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,480 Speaker 1: let's just put this way, an ancient community among humans 702 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:23,480 Speaker 1: and other creatures UH that perhaps can um rectify some 703 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:29,800 Speaker 1: of the ills caused by UM western exploitation UM and 704 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:37,280 Speaker 1: Western views that that UM squid intelligence cannot be UM 705 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: compared to human intelligence. That has to be less than 706 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,480 Speaker 1: intelligence to enable us uh to exploit them just for 707 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:50,160 Speaker 1: their nerve fibers or for their flesh. Well, I feel 708 01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,040 Speaker 1: like that that would that would almost be a fitting 709 01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,640 Speaker 1: end to the interview right there. But I have to, 710 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,880 Speaker 1: of course ask you about about the squid in in 711 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,400 Speaker 1: literature in particular, and some of the the the weirder 712 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 1: weird fiction of of of the twenty and the twenty 713 01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: one century. And again there's a lot in the book. 714 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ask you about everything. I encourage our 715 01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,840 Speaker 1: our listeners to pick up a copy and dive in themselves. 716 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,360 Speaker 1: But Uh, one of the big ones you, of course, 717 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,040 Speaker 1: discusses Jules Vernes treatment of the giant squid in twenty 718 01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:23,920 Speaker 1: tho Leagues under the Sea. How essential is this novel 719 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 1: to pop culture visions of the giant squid? Oh, well, 720 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:33,480 Speaker 1: it's it's enormously important. Um. In anyways, Verne uh does 721 01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:37,280 Speaker 1: just the reverse of what uh stadings group uh did. 722 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:42,840 Speaker 1: Um so that and the narratives. The main character, Professor 723 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Aronnax who was a natural historian UM, gives an account 724 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: of the giant squids that she sees from inside the 725 01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:58,760 Speaker 1: submarine that um uh led by the evil captain Nemo 726 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:06,360 Speaker 1: UM and he gives Aaron Axes descriptions very um accurate, empirical, 727 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:12,520 Speaker 1: uh dispassionate description. But then almost immediately that scene turned 728 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:19,880 Speaker 1: into um uh very exciting, dramatic account where the squids 729 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 1: are attacking the Nautilus um and uh they become the 730 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: um repellent embodiment of the old myths um and who 731 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,480 Speaker 1: who are who trying to pull on Aaronax's companion, the 732 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:41,000 Speaker 1: harpoonist ned Land from the from the strip until Captain 733 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:45,600 Speaker 1: Nemo hacks off the tentacle of the squid um and 734 01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,160 Speaker 1: so on. Uh. Ned Land is almost topped in two 735 01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:53,320 Speaker 1: by the the the beak, the giant beak of the 736 01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:58,840 Speaker 1: monsters squid. So really, what Verne is able to accomplish 737 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:06,000 Speaker 1: there is making something seem something seems scientific uh into 738 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:13,640 Speaker 1: a uh a rejuvenation of the old myths of the 739 01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:18,480 Speaker 1: craken of the sea monsters. Uh. So we end up 740 01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:25,000 Speaker 1: with UM a decidedly modern, empirical kind of dread on 741 01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:29,400 Speaker 1: a modern kind of anxiety. That so that we can 742 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 1: name what these creatures are uh and still feel that 743 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,000 Speaker 1: that oh yikes, if I've been rowed into the sea, 744 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,480 Speaker 1: they'll definitely rap hole of me and shot me in 745 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:44,720 Speaker 1: half with their giant beak. UM. So that that's really 746 01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,959 Speaker 1: uh lay the groundwork, as as yourself set for much 747 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:56,360 Speaker 1: of the later kinds of stories that describe UM space 748 01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 1: aliens coming to the world and destroying the world. Um 749 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:07,400 Speaker 1: and of course those aliens all or squits. Yeah that 750 01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,360 Speaker 1: that you of course you have bring up HP Lovecraft's 751 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:13,720 Speaker 1: Cthulhu and The Call of Cthulu, which I think most 752 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,000 Speaker 1: of our listeners are probably familiar with. But then you 753 01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,720 Speaker 1: also touched on a work by William Hope Hodgson, The 754 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,120 Speaker 1: Boats of Glenn Carrigg. And I've read Hodgson's The Night Land, 755 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:26,120 Speaker 1: but I wasn't familiar with this one. Can you tell 756 01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,320 Speaker 1: us a little about it? And it's rolled in squid 757 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,240 Speaker 1: related weird fiction. First of all, I really have to 758 01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,600 Speaker 1: give a shout up to my um great friend Tim Murphy, 759 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,440 Speaker 1: who is not only a lover of squid of back 760 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to almost as much as I am, but also an 761 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:49,120 Speaker 1: expert on Hodgson, this book and weird fixing fiction generally. Uh. 762 01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 1: And he's he's just finishing a book on Hodgson. UM 763 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,320 Speaker 1: and the short the story of the Books of Glenn 764 01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:05,480 Speaker 1: Carrig um uh come from the the voice of John Winterstraw, 765 01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:10,240 Speaker 1: who's the narrator who's basically telling a kind of sailor's 766 01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:19,720 Speaker 1: story of having once um uh encounters strange monsters at sea. UM. Basically, 767 01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:26,160 Speaker 1: what happens in in his strange his sailor's story is 768 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:31,240 Speaker 1: that his ship UM, the Glenn Carrick, gets caught in 769 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,360 Speaker 1: a big field of seaweed let's say, probably something like 770 01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,120 Speaker 1: the Sargasso Sea. And it's worth noting parenthetically that Hodgson 771 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,520 Speaker 1: UM just spent quite a good time and the merchant marine. 772 01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,560 Speaker 1: So he was familiar with ships UM. He was worried 773 01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:54,880 Speaker 1: familiar with UM ship war uh and with these kinds 774 01:05:54,880 --> 01:06:01,000 Speaker 1: of tales that sailors telemone another UM. But he also 775 01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:07,120 Speaker 1: was interested in UM that the category of of fiction UH, 776 01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:12,720 Speaker 1: it's called weird weird fiction. UM. So while the game 777 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:17,040 Speaker 1: terrig is caught in um this Sargassas Sea or just 778 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:23,280 Speaker 1: a field of seaweed um UM, the sailors began to 779 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:28,440 Speaker 1: to um threat because they encounter other ships that have 780 01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,120 Speaker 1: been obviously trapped there so long they've just become uh 781 01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:38,880 Speaker 1: skeleton ships. Until finally they drift towards of what seems 782 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:44,200 Speaker 1: to be an island UH, and they try to um 783 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:50,120 Speaker 1: set up a residence on the island UM. And then 784 01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:56,080 Speaker 1: UH winter Strong notices of a few times he looks 785 01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,760 Speaker 1: over the side of a boat um. And the title 786 01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 1: of the uh novel comes from the fact that the 787 01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:08,480 Speaker 1: sailors escape from the ship from the land Carrick and 788 01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,280 Speaker 1: the ships and boats which they rode towards the island. 789 01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,280 Speaker 1: So while he's in one of these boats, winter Straw 790 01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:22,240 Speaker 1: looks over the side and he sees a white human 791 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 1: like face staring back up at him. Uh. The course 792 01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:30,000 Speaker 1: um scares the Jesus out of him. Uh. And then 793 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 1: once they get on the island, the sailors begin to 794 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:39,400 Speaker 1: encounter other beings. Uh. There seem to be encampments of 795 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:46,440 Speaker 1: squid like characters. UM seems that perhaps these squid monsters 796 01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:53,840 Speaker 1: are traveling underneath the island and subterranean caverns and showing 797 01:07:53,960 --> 01:08:02,880 Speaker 1: up on land uh and attacking the fortified of the sailors. UH. 798 01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:09,840 Speaker 1: And the the attacks happened um uh nightly over a 799 01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:14,520 Speaker 1: standard time UH, even to the point that that the 800 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:18,679 Speaker 1: sailor has become exhausted. UH. And they said look out, 801 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:23,519 Speaker 1: hoping to to war off more attacks. Winter Straw numerous 802 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:27,240 Speaker 1: points looks out to sea and he can see the 803 01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:32,640 Speaker 1: uh squid monsters swarming into the island and um what 804 01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:38,080 Speaker 1: he describes as discipline formations. So it's the squid army 805 01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:45,559 Speaker 1: coming to attack the marooned sailors uh and the disturbing 806 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 1: faulty there and they're really intriguing paulity. And I think 807 01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:52,479 Speaker 1: this is what Hodge and what makes Hodges and such 808 01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:58,880 Speaker 1: an interesting writer and much of his work um uh 809 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:05,720 Speaker 1: is that he really probes the question of alien intelligence. UM. 810 01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:08,200 Speaker 1: What what a lot of what you and I have 811 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:12,280 Speaker 1: been talking about in the past few minutes. UM. In 812 01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:14,760 Speaker 1: this regard, we could even think back, perhaps to the 813 01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:19,160 Speaker 1: squid jokes. UM. That might not be funny to us, 814 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:25,960 Speaker 1: because these disciplined military formations of squids uh would seem 815 01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:33,120 Speaker 1: to demonstrate uh high intelligence, very sophisticated intelligence, and an 816 01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:38,960 Speaker 1: intelligence that's directed at us humans in a way that 817 01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:44,519 Speaker 1: is about as discomforting as I think is possible, and 818 01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:49,719 Speaker 1: that is thinking of us humans as the resources for 819 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:55,720 Speaker 1: a squid economy. UH. So the question would be what 820 01:09:55,960 --> 01:10:01,679 Speaker 1: use would humans be to a squid sibilant zation? How 821 01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:09,880 Speaker 1: can humans be exploited by squid intelligence? UM? And that 822 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:15,880 Speaker 1: really goes against everything that UM we want to say 823 01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:21,519 Speaker 1: about ourselves and relation to our fellow creatures uh and 824 01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:26,800 Speaker 1: about our view of ourselves as UH. The only dominant 825 01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:32,519 Speaker 1: intelligent force on the planet. And I think it's it's 826 01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:36,280 Speaker 1: as my Tim Murphy suggests and brought his discussion of 827 01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:41,680 Speaker 1: weird fiction, UM, since weird fiction is pretty far removed 828 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:46,320 Speaker 1: from let's a mainstream fiction, that's the kind of question 829 01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:52,800 Speaker 1: that weird fiction can ask that other forms of of 830 01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:59,720 Speaker 1: literary inquiry or other forms of scientific um or just 831 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,080 Speaker 1: oracle inquiry really cannot venture into. UH. And that's I 832 01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:10,439 Speaker 1: think the value of weird fiction and UM the value 833 01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:15,799 Speaker 1: of learning how to read um the myths and legends 834 01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:22,640 Speaker 1: of ancient uh times and the um uh theological accounts 835 01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:27,559 Speaker 1: of other cultures in a less skeptical way, perhaps in 836 01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:34,000 Speaker 1: a more open minded sense of of seeing that maybe 837 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,800 Speaker 1: we're not the only intelligence and maybe there are other 838 01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:43,000 Speaker 1: ways of of engaging intelligently with the world. Excellent. Well, uh, 839 01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:46,400 Speaker 1: you know. Finally, one last question here after reading the book, 840 01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:48,559 Speaker 1: I have a couple of guesses about what your answer 841 01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:53,640 Speaker 1: might be. But do you have a favorite squid species? Oh? Absolutely, 842 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,639 Speaker 1: I don't even have to have state. UM my favorite 843 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:01,759 Speaker 1: squid UM is a little apart from the traditional favorite 844 01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,840 Speaker 1: squid um. The favorite squid I think it generally is um. 845 01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:10,439 Speaker 1: The giant squid because of all the lore uh that's 846 01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:14,240 Speaker 1: growing up around over the millennia. But I really became 847 01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:21,920 Speaker 1: fascinated by the Humboldt squid UM the um, the filicus 848 01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:27,040 Speaker 1: gigas right, which is about five ft long. UM. It's 849 01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,639 Speaker 1: also referred to as the red devil because it has 850 01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:35,479 Speaker 1: plenty of lore of its own. UM. So that we 851 01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:39,680 Speaker 1: hear over over again. UM. Sailors fall from the boats UM, 852 01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:44,280 Speaker 1: they're fishing boats, and they're immediately devoured by swarms of 853 01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:48,320 Speaker 1: of the Humboldt squids who chumped them to pieces. UM 854 01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:52,960 Speaker 1: and UH. There there are videos on YouTube of of 855 01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:58,559 Speaker 1: underwater cameraman being attacked by uh one of these five 856 01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:03,360 Speaker 1: ft long squids coming after him and ripping his oxygen 857 01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,280 Speaker 1: hose and and so on. UM. And of course, these 858 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:11,920 Speaker 1: these are the squids that um defy explanation and their 859 01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:17,160 Speaker 1: ability to pass through UM areas of the ocean where 860 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,719 Speaker 1: there is there is no action uh and and where 861 01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,720 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be able to go, and yet 862 01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:30,280 Speaker 1: they do. UM. And they're also hunted in large numbers 863 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:36,000 Speaker 1: for their giant axons UH and UM and their flesh 864 01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:41,840 Speaker 1: and their fears. And I think because of their adaptability, uh, 865 01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:47,360 Speaker 1: their voraciousness. Um. And I'll just add this one detail. Um, 866 01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:54,160 Speaker 1: there's one um weird weird lead of delightful video of 867 01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:59,519 Speaker 1: sub scientists putting a camera on a humble squid to 868 01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:04,760 Speaker 1: see how it interacts with other humbold squids or what 869 01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:09,519 Speaker 1: it does way down and the ocean depth. Uh. But 870 01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:12,400 Speaker 1: the video only lasts a few seconds because you can 871 01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,679 Speaker 1: tell the squid is descending and then immediately another squid 872 01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:22,960 Speaker 1: approaches and Egypt. So the three blank um. So that 873 01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:31,800 Speaker 1: that aggression, even to um, cannibalism of of one's um schoolmates, 874 01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:37,240 Speaker 1: of maybe one even once family, that's consumable. Um. All 875 01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:41,360 Speaker 1: that is alien and it's right to the heart of 876 01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,760 Speaker 1: why I wanted to write the book. Excellent. Well again 877 01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:46,680 Speaker 1: for everyone out there that the book is Squid. It 878 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,240 Speaker 1: is part of Reactions Animal series. It's available in physical 879 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,280 Speaker 1: and digital formats. And and now that I know that 880 01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:54,960 Speaker 1: you also have one on the Fox, I'm gonna have 881 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,840 Speaker 1: to pick that up as well. Uh. I'm instantly thinking 882 01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,360 Speaker 1: of all the various folklores funding the Fox and it's 883 01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,600 Speaker 1: secretive nature. Oh great, right, and just just go to 884 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,000 Speaker 1: plug out. Let me say that, Uh, there are hundreds 885 01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:15,519 Speaker 1: um different animals covers and Reactions series. Um. And really 886 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,760 Speaker 1: all those books have have a great deal to offer. Um. 887 01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:25,360 Speaker 1: They all all the different authors have their own approaches 888 01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:30,480 Speaker 1: to particular animals. Um. Not everyone who's trained in literature 889 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:35,960 Speaker 1: as I am. There, scientists, sociologists, historians, um, journalists, um 890 01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:41,360 Speaker 1: you name it. Uh. So many people have been intrigued 891 01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:47,760 Speaker 1: by how to how to talk about an animals and 892 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:52,640 Speaker 1: what it means to try to understand the relevance of 893 01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:57,599 Speaker 1: one animal to human life and culture. Excellent. Well, than 894 01:15:57,600 --> 01:15:59,920 Speaker 1: thanks for being on the show, Martin. Sure, thank you 895 01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:03,800 Speaker 1: are inviting me. I really appreciate it. All right, Thanks 896 01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 1: again to Martin Wallon for taking time out of his 897 01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:09,080 Speaker 1: day to chat with me again. The book is Squid 898 01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,920 Speaker 1: from one part of the Reaction Animal series, which also 899 01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:17,160 Speaker 1: includes Wallon's book on the Fox. Wallon's other works include 900 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,439 Speaker 1: Whose Dog Are You? The Technology of Dog Breeds and 901 01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,200 Speaker 1: The Aesthetics of Modern Human Canine Relations and A City 902 01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:28,920 Speaker 1: of Health, Fields of Disease, Revolutions in the Poetry, Medicine, 903 01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,760 Speaker 1: and philosophy of Romanticism. As always, if you want to 904 01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,080 Speaker 1: listen to other episodes of Stuff to Blow your mind, 905 01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:36,640 Speaker 1: you can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your 906 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,680 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed, which will get wherever you find your podcast. 907 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:44,160 Speaker 1: Core science and culture episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 908 01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:48,400 Speaker 1: listener mail on Monday's short form Artifact or Monster Fact 909 01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:51,559 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Friday, we set aside most serious 910 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,360 Speaker 1: concerns and just talk about a weird film on Weird 911 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:57,640 Speaker 1: House Cinema. If you'd like to reach out to me 912 01:16:58,360 --> 01:16:59,960 Speaker 1: or Joe or any of us here at the show, 913 01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:04,320 Speaker 1: simply drop us an email at contact at stuff to 914 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:14,559 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind 915 01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:17,320 Speaker 1: is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for 916 01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,440 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 917 01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:34,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listening to your favorite shows