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Speaker 1: Talking to Death is released every Friday and brought to

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Speaker 1: you absolutely free. But if you want ad free listening

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Speaker 1: and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com or on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

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Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to Talking to Death. This week, Pain sits

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Speaker 4: down with Madison McGhee. Madison is the creator and host

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Speaker 4: of the Ice Cold Case podcast, where she investigates the

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Speaker 4: cold case murder of her own father. In this episode,

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Speaker 4: Madison breaks down her own investigative work into her father's

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Speaker 4: cold case. They discuss her struggles in making a podcast

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Speaker 4: about such a sensitive topic and the toll that that

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Speaker 4: process takes, and Pain impart some of his own investigative wisdom.

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Speaker 4: This week, Madison McGhee.

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Speaker 5: Good to see you. It's been a minute. I know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: It was crime con right that we saw each other,

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Speaker 5: which was such.

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Speaker 3: A like yeah, like yeah, we like barely talked. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think I saw you for thirty seconds, and I

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Speaker 1: guess everyone for thirty seconds. I don't think I had

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Speaker 1: thirty seconds of my own like thinking that, yeah, is

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Speaker 1: not disruptive by something else, good time, but it was

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Speaker 1: a whirlwood.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be pain Lindsay at Crime Gone Ever,

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Speaker 2: You're just too it's too crazy.

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Speaker 5: It can be a little much.

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Speaker 1: It's like the one time in you know the world

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Speaker 1: where I go downstairs to a Starbucks and there's a

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Speaker 1: good chance that almost everyone knows who I am. Like

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Speaker 1: usually that like that doesn't happen anywhere, but yeah, in

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Speaker 1: that particular environment, it's it's likely and you have to

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Speaker 1: kind of be aware.

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Speaker 3: Of that totally totally.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, that was fun. You had a cool panel. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: how was that for you?

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you have your own very unique kind

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Speaker 1: of entry point into the true crime podcast space. Not

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Speaker 1: many people start making a true crime podcast because of

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Speaker 1: something that they're really actually related to. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: I think you fall into a very unique category. And

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Speaker 1: so for those who don't know your backstory and how

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Speaker 1: you got into this true crime podcasting thing too, what

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Speaker 1: started it all in terms of I want to make

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Speaker 1: a podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well, my dad was murdered when I was six and

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Speaker 2: I didn't know until I was sixteen. And even then,

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Speaker 2: when I found out, I wasn't like podcast, it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, my whole life is ruined. And then

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Speaker 2: as I spent I don't know, maybe be like six

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Speaker 2: or seven years processing that, it sort of evolved into

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Speaker 2: I want to solve it, and I am kind of

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Speaker 2: creative and I need an outlet to do that, and

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Speaker 2: podcasting was like the lowest lift, and so now I'm

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Speaker 2: here doing this.

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Speaker 1: So you say, you found out your dad was murdered

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Speaker 1: when you were six, but you didn't really know that

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Speaker 1: he was murdered until you were sixteen.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean, Yeah, I knew my dad died,

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Speaker 2: but I was told that he had a heart attack. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so that's just sort of how I had processed. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's not easy, of course, losing a parent ever, especially

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Speaker 2: at a young age, but you know, I was able

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Speaker 2: to sort of process it through this like scientific lens

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Speaker 2: of like this happens to people. And then to find

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Speaker 2: out at sixteen that it was more at the hands

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Speaker 2: of someone else, it felt a little like before your

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Speaker 2: time sort of situation that made it a little bit

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Speaker 2: harder to like process again. And then also I was

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Speaker 2: lied to so that there was like a lot of

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Speaker 2: layers involved in in that discovery.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, like I mean, anyone losing a parent is

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Speaker 1: awful and something that you know, I've never thankfully had

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Speaker 1: to deal with yet. And I can imagine you being

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Speaker 1: six years old trying to rationalize how your father may

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Speaker 1: have died of.

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Speaker 5: Some sort of natural causes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like it that kind of got flipped on its

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Speaker 1: nose a little bit, or tell me how that went down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I realized that I had like a really strong instinct.

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Speaker 2: When I was sixteen, I was visiting my dad's side

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Speaker 2: of the family for the first time since his funeral.

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Speaker 3: And we my mom and I.

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Speaker 2: Were there and we saw my cousin Omar, and he

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Speaker 2: was saying goodbye to us as we were leaving, and

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Speaker 2: I had like a physical reaction to seeing him. It

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Speaker 2: felt like someone had punched me in the stomach. So

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Speaker 2: I hurled forward. I mean, the breath was knocked out

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Speaker 2: of my lungs. I couldn't breathe. My mom was like,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong. She thought I was having like a panic attack,

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Speaker 2: And I almost like saw a movie in my head,

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Speaker 2: and I watched my dad laying on the floor and

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Speaker 2: my cousin Omar standing next to him, and of course

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Speaker 2: at the time, I thought my dad had a heart attack.

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Speaker 2: So I get in the car and I'm telling my

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Speaker 2: mom what I saw, and I'm like, I think Omar

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Speaker 2: was there and like watched my dad die and didn't

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Speaker 2: help him while he was like having a heart attack,

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Speaker 2: And my mom freaked out, and we go to a

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Speaker 2: Buffalo Wild Wings and I haven't eaten meat sense, And

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Speaker 2: my mom tells me that my dad was murdered and

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Speaker 2: that Omar was probably there and had some sort of

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Speaker 2: connection to the story in that morning, and it was

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Speaker 2: weird that I knew that, and she thought someone had

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Speaker 2: told me something, but no one had said anything to me.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that's how I found out.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, assuming you didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 1: prior knowledge to the inner workings and the details of

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Speaker 1: what may have happened to your dad in terms of

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Speaker 1: the murder, when you had this exchange with Omar, that

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Speaker 1: seemed like it was pretty brief, right it was when

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Speaker 1: you were parting ways or would you give him a

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Speaker 1: hug or what was the circumstances.

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Speaker 3: No physical touch? Yeah, we were leaving, but.

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Speaker 5: You look, you looked at him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just saw him, uh huh.

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Speaker 1: And so like when in that moment when you see him, like,

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Speaker 1: take me back, like, what did you experience?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was like I truly felt like someone

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Speaker 2: punched me in the stomach, Like it felt like a

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Speaker 2: fist hit my stomach, Like the moment I was walking away,

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Speaker 2: we were at my grandmother's house and he lived there,

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Speaker 2: but he lived upstairs, and so while we were there visiting,

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Speaker 2: he was not downstairs at all, and as we were

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Speaker 2: like getting ready to go, at some point he came downstairs.

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Speaker 2: And then as we were like outside walking down the

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Speaker 2: steps to go to the car, he's on the front

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Speaker 2: porch and he must have said like by or something,

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Speaker 2: because we my mom and I both turned around, and

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Speaker 2: the moment I turned around, it was like someone punched

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Speaker 2: me in the stomach.

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Speaker 1: Did it feel like an instinctual threat to you or

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Speaker 1: was it some sort of energy thing or where you

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Speaker 1: didn't really know what to.

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Speaker 5: Make of it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I had no idea what was going on.

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Speaker 2: I didn't feel threatened in the moment, Like I wasn't scared.

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Speaker 2: I mean I was afraid that like something weird was

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Speaker 2: happening to me, but I wasn't like someone is like yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was just like this is so strange. And then

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Speaker 2: it was like I mean, it was so quick, but

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Speaker 2: it's like I felt like I watched a forty five

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Speaker 2: minute movie. You know, it's so weird. Yeah, yeah, So.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that, like just that experience

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Speaker 1: in and of itself? What do you think that was

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Speaker 1: like some sort of like you know, precognition or like

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Speaker 1: some sort of you know, what were you picking up on?

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Speaker 1: You know, what's the logical way to explain that or

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Speaker 1: the other way?

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Speaker 3: There's none, you know, there's no.

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Speaker 1: Give me your take. You experienced it, I wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: So like you've had years to probably like look back

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Speaker 1: on it in hindsight. What was why'd you feel that way?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a superhero. I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I you're superhero, like I don't I don't get punched.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 5: Metaphor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I it's hard to explain because I don't know where

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Speaker 2: I stand in the like spiritual sense, right. I grew

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Speaker 2: up super religious. So at the time You're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: Odd is telling me something, you know? But now I'm like,

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Speaker 2: what was that?

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Speaker 3: I don't know?

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, but I do I can pinpoint

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Speaker 2: other moments in my life that aren't as severe where

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Speaker 2: I've been like, oh, something weird is about to happen,

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Speaker 2: and then it does. And so I don't know if

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Speaker 2: that's just like we all have that and I'm more

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Speaker 2: aware of it, or I don't know, it could have

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Speaker 2: been my dad. I mean, who knows, right, Like, it

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Speaker 2: just depends on like what you believe and all of

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, And I have no idea.

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Speaker 1: It was something instinctual that you didn't consciously set in

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Speaker 1: motion that you reacted to. And you know, I believe in,

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Speaker 1: you know, instincts.

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Speaker 5: I think that there's probably a million ways to explain them.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes there's circumstances that you know, defy you know, logic,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it seems like you were definitely picking up

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Speaker 1: on something that so subconsciously at was important and heavy,

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Speaker 1: and in hindsight, I guess you still remember it that way.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, after this experience, you know what kind

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Speaker 1: of unfolds over the next couple of years as you're

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Speaker 1: a young adult growing into you know, an older teenager eighteen,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you're kind of like, I guess, piecing

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Speaker 1: together parts of your past that you thought were one

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Speaker 1: way but now there are another, Like take me through

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Speaker 1: that process after this Omar incident and as you're growing

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Speaker 1: older and maturing and probably like looking at it from

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Speaker 1: a million different angles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting time. It was

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Speaker 2: on my dad's birthday in twenty twelve, which is the

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Speaker 2: year I graduated high school. So I am like three

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Speaker 2: weeks away from going to college, and so my whole

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Speaker 2: life is like shifting and evolving, like from a personal perspective,

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Speaker 2: and now this is like this big bomb that's like

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Speaker 2: dropped into my life, and now everything feels like it's

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Speaker 2: so chaotic. I had plans at the time to major

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Speaker 2: in biochemistry with a minor in neuroscience and be a doctor.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, that is not what happens.

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Speaker 5: Sounds hard.

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Speaker 2: I went to college and I changed my major like

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Speaker 2: almost immediately, and it was so I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: always really interested in filmmaking, and I thought, because I

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Speaker 2: grew up in West Virginia, that that would never make

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Speaker 2: me any money, so that would always just be something

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Speaker 2: I would do for fun on the side. And I

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Speaker 2: sort of saw that as like a path to closure

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Speaker 2: for my dad and myself, but also a job, and

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Speaker 2: so I sort of pivoted into that world and really

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Speaker 2: was just desperate to learn how to make movies and

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Speaker 2: documentaries so that one day, eventually I'd be able to

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Speaker 2: tell my dad's story.

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Speaker 1: So at some point you were inspired enough to take

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Speaker 1: the trauma that you had experienced and you know, your

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Speaker 1: upbringing and all the unanswered questions that you had, you

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Speaker 1: know endured, and put that into a podcast. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: what gave you the nerve to do that? And what

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Speaker 1: were you hoping to get out of that?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. What gave me the nerve to

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Speaker 3: do that?

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Speaker 2: I think it was this weird combination of free time,

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Speaker 2: which I didn't really have a lot of until I started,

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Speaker 2: and this delusion that like maybe it would do something.

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Speaker 2: And I think that kind of ties in with like

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Speaker 2: the why, right. I thought, when I first started looking

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Speaker 2: into my dad's case, you couldn't find anything, Like there

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Speaker 2: wasn't an article that would come up from a local

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Speaker 2: newspaper about John Cornelius McGee's murder, and so I had

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Speaker 2: to like drive to Ohio. I was living in Portland,

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Speaker 2: Oregon at the time. I did drive forty one hours

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Speaker 2: to Ohio and like fish in a library from like

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Speaker 2: beginning of July for like years and years and years

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Speaker 2: of two thousand and two, just trying to find these articles.

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Speaker 2: And so at that point it was like, if I

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Speaker 2: can just make this case a little more popular, then

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Speaker 2: maybe it will get solved because right now, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the Belmont County Sheriff's Department at the time was getting

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Speaker 2: away with doing nothing because nobody was checking in on that.

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Speaker 3: So that was sort of the goal.

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Speaker 2: And it was a lofty goal considering like I was

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Speaker 2: doing it by myself, but that was the idea, and

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Speaker 2: I guess the sort of push was that I finally

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Speaker 2: had some time to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you had time to sort of craft this plan,

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Speaker 1: and I guess in a way take a risk, and

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Speaker 1: you knew that, you know, if you just did nothing,

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Speaker 1: then nothing was probably ever going to happen, because nothing's

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Speaker 1: ever happened at all.

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Speaker 5: So right maybe at.

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Speaker 1: The very least, you know, you poking here and there

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Speaker 1: are just even finding an article you know that otherwise

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Speaker 1: would never be found. Maybe that starts to create some

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Speaker 1: sort of momentum that otherwise.

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Speaker 2: Would Like there was something at the time I wasn't

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Speaker 2: super vocal about, like, oh, my dad was murdered, but

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Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine having a conversation with someone like later

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Speaker 2: in life and saying like, oh, yeah, my dad was

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Speaker 2: murdered in two thousand and two and it's an unsolved case,

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Speaker 2: and them look at me and just out of curiosity

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Speaker 2: be like, oh, did you do anything about that?

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Speaker 3: And me just be like, well, no, I just whatever, righte?

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Speaker 5: What'd you find out? And you're like, oh, I never

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Speaker 5: really looked into it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like that seems that's just not my personality, and

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Speaker 2: so yeah, that I feel like it was just a

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Speaker 2: natural progression to do this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of a strange burden in a way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, burden is more like, you know, for yourself,

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you're looking down the barrel of the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life and this comes up and you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I never really did anything about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was like, no matter what I would,

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Speaker 2: this would be my story and I would have to

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Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, and like that super shitty, but it

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Speaker 2: is what it is.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, it's very shitty.

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Speaker 1: But what is it shittier to regret not having given

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Speaker 1: something a shot?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Is that how you look at.

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Speaker 2: It or it's how I looked at it at the time.

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Speaker 2: I go back and forth every day about if I

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Speaker 2: should have ever done this or.

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Speaker 5: Not really what happened, you know how, Like there's.

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Speaker 3: Those photos of like.

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Speaker 2: The like Obama like when he entered office and then

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Speaker 2: when he left and he looks like five hundred years older.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, like three years older me like.

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Speaker 2: That, I've only been doing this for a year and

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Speaker 2: a half and like that is me. And actually Meredith,

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Speaker 2: our mutual friend, asked me a while ago. She was like, well,

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Speaker 2: if you could do anything differently, like what would you do?

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Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, I just wouldn't have done it,

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Speaker 2: Like I would have never done this.

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Speaker 3: Oh I could do it.

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Speaker 5: I would have never done this at all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What's been the hardest part of doing this that that

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Speaker 1: makes you have that kind of knee jerk reaction of like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if I would have changed anything, like maybe I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been involved in this because of why, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, gosh all of it, right. I think that.

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Speaker 2: When you have sort of the hope that this will

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Speaker 2: do something. I mean I remember the feeling when I

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Speaker 2: first hit publish on the first.

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Speaker 5: Episode, and like and what was that feeling.

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Speaker 2: That feeling of like just like I have finally done

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Speaker 2: something that like might move the needle a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and the unknown, I think is almost more exciting than

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Speaker 2: like when you know obviously what happens. And so looking back,

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Speaker 2: I see sort of the cost of all of this

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Speaker 2: in my personal life, my professional life, my financial life,

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Speaker 2: my mental health, I mean, my entire sense of self.

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Speaker 5: What do you mean, like, how do you feel differently?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know who I am without this,

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Speaker 2: and I don't like that feeling.

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Speaker 5: He feels very tied to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I feel like even to like other people,

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 3: It's very very hard now in a way.

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Speaker 2: I mean I struggle with anxiety and depression and pre this,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's almost gotten. Like I thought I

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Speaker 2: was like the worst ever, and I'm like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 2: way worse now. The paranoia almost of everyone I meet

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Speaker 2: and interact with. It's like, oh, do they only want

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Speaker 2: to be my friend because I have this like true

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Speaker 2: crime podcast and they're so obsessed with true crime and

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Speaker 2: they love true crime, and like they don't actually like

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Speaker 2: me or want to be my friend. Or if I

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Speaker 2: stopped doing this, what I stop hearing from everyone in

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Speaker 2: my life?

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Speaker 3: Like what what is real? And what is not?

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Speaker 2: And you know, I've really sort of like hunkered down,

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Speaker 2: and I've like I don't really hang out with anyone anymore,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't do anything. I like sit at home

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Speaker 2: with my cat. Like I'm very My life looks a

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Speaker 2: lot different than it did when this started.

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Speaker 1: That a good thing or a bad thing, or just

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Speaker 1: a new thing that you're navigating or or you don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm just navigating and sort of taking everything

347
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Speaker 2: as it comes. But like I think about, you know where,

348
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Speaker 2: all the time I've spent on this podcast and this investigation,

349
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Speaker 2: like which is a lot. I could have made five movies,

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Speaker 2: like I could have done so much with my time, one.

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Speaker 5: Hundred buildings and yeah, yeah, and.

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Speaker 3: Done anything.

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Speaker 2: And so if this never gets solved, it's like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, what did I spend the last x amount

355
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Speaker 2: of time doing?

356
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Speaker 3: And like the night, I mean last night, I was

357
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Speaker 3: up all night working on this and it's.

358
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Speaker 1: Like for what, Well, you asked yourself that, and did

359
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 1: you have an internal response?

360
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Speaker 3: No, I have no idea. I'll let you know the

361
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Speaker 3: figure it out.

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Speaker 1: But then you kept doing it though, right, you said

363
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Speaker 1: for what? But then and you went back head down

364
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,160
Speaker 1: and did it again.

365
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess yeah, thank.

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Speaker 5: You PhD Well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like maybe it's a rational question, especially when

368
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Speaker 1: you feel like you're spending your wheels and you're like

369
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Speaker 1: this isn't going anywhere, or you know, this is like

370
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Speaker 1: time gets wasted and that you know, I personally hate

371
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Speaker 1: wasting time, wasting other people's time, Like you know, it

372
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Speaker 1: just feels like so unproductive and just not like I'm

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Speaker 1: moving forward in life, and you know, going through a

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Speaker 1: cold case, I feel like that's like ninety percent of

375
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Speaker 1: it is.

376
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Speaker 5: All of this.

377
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Speaker 1: You know, I would even call it wasted energy, but

378
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Speaker 1: it most certainly feels like it because you could go

379
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Speaker 1: down this whole thing for days, weeks, months and really

380
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Speaker 1: not yield anything. And maybe all you did yield was

381
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Speaker 1: that that's.

382
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Speaker 5: Not what you should be doing.

383
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Speaker 1: It took you six months to figure that out, and

384
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 1: that's annoying. You wish you just knew that right away

385
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 1: and you could spend that six months having done something

386
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Speaker 1: else or putting the energy elsewhere. As someone who you

387
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Speaker 1: know builds this show and you're making a show about

388
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Speaker 1: your investigation into your father's unsolved murder, what's your take

389
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,439
Speaker 1: on the true crime genre and the audience who is

390
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Speaker 1: so obsessed with it.

391
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Speaker 2: It's been a wild ride. I grew up, which is

392
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: so weird to look back now, because my mom knew

393
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Speaker 2: my dad was murdered the whole time. My mom had

394
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Speaker 2: me watching America's Most Wanted when I was like six,

395
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Speaker 2: So I've been watching that show like every Saturday night

396
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Speaker 2: for most of my life. And I would have considered

397
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Speaker 2: myself sort of a consumer of true crime. So then

398
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: to sort of fall into like subject of it definitely

399
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: shifted my perspective of like the craft of it and

400
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: the art of it. It's very different than like making

401
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: a movie, which can be about anything, and the characters

402
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 2: are made up and if you change their story or

403
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 2: they get heartbroken, they're fake, it doesn't matter. And this

404
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 2: is so much more real. So it definitely feels different.

405
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Speaker 2: You know, I remember, and I will never do this again,

406
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: but I remember in like high school, being like, oh yeah,

407
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 2: I love that documentary about whatever whatever getting killed, right,

408
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: And you're like, WHOA, that's weird to say now, because

409
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: like that's my dad, and that's someone else's cousin, and

410
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: that's someone else's sister, and like it just has humanized

411
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: the whole thing for me. But then also as like,

412
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Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, it's such a bigger conversation,

413
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: but the types of stories that are told, right, my dad.

414
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 2: The only reason that like you couldn't find anything about

415
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: my dad is because no one gives a shit about

416
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: a black drug dealer from Ohio who was an informant

417
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Speaker 2: and got shot in his house.

418
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Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, obviously, I mean.

419
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: And that they pushed it into a dusty box to

420
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Speaker 1: never be.

421
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 2: Found, not what was coming to him, you know, And

422
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 2: like that is that's because the genre has set that tone, right,

423
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: So it's tough, but I think the interest level, you know,

424
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 2: I really believe that because I have these conversations every

425
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: day now. If my dad's story hasn't turned into a

426
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: derivative yet because of a long list of reasons, including

427
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: it's not popular enough, and there's all of these reasons.

428
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 3: Why, right, what.

429
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 5: Do you mean derivative? What derivative do you want it

430
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 5: to be?

431
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: Like a documentary or whatever?

432
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't necessarily want to go that route,

433
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: but like you know, there's eight hundred Joon Binney Ramsey docks, right,

434
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: there's forty about all of these different cases right, And

435
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: there's reasons why we don't see stories like my Dad's

436
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: not necessarily my dads, but stories like my dads because

437
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 2: they're not getting purchased. I believe if they were and

438
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: they were put on streaming platforms, people would watch them.

439
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 3: There are network.

440
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: Execs saying that no one wants that, and that's why

441
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: they're not buying them. But they set the tone of

442
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: what people want, because people want what they're given, especially

443
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: in the entertainment industry, and so I think that that's

444
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: where I think that the genre sort of sets that

445
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: tone because if more of those stories were being told,

446
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: people would consume them.

447
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: They're just less told.

448
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: So when you set out to make this podcast, you

449
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: had to do a super deep dive into the details of,

450
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, what may have happened the night of suspects,

451
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: persons of interest family.

452
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 5: You know, I would imagine.

453
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: Very difficult, you know, intricate things that you're dealing with

454
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: as you're going through there, like what did you kind

455
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: of initially discover as the potential circumstances of when and

456
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: how your dad was actually murdered?

457
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 3: So it's such a weird story.

458
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 2: Almost immediately you realize that the story on paper on

459
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 2: the police files is not probably the most accurate version

460
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: of the story, just because it doesn't make a lot

461
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: of sense. So my dad lived next door to his sister,

462
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: and his sister's son, who was like an adult child,

463
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 2: like eighteen nineteen twenty, is there and there's three people

464
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: in the house and their house gets broken into, and

465
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: that's the beginning of this morning of you know, eventually

466
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: my dad getting.

467
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 3: Killed and four ish.

468
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: They don't even know how many people break into the

469
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: house and are there for like forty minutes, like ransacking

470
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: the house looking for money.

471
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: The house, Yeah, yeah, they're there.

472
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 2: They're there for money, and they don't find any after

473
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: forty minutes, and they end up next door at my

474
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: dad's house with Omar, and then they shoot my dad

475
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,959
Speaker 2: as he's like approaching the door because he hears someone outside,

476
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: and they kick in the door. My dad is standing there.

477
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: They shoot him one shot. He falls to the ground.

478
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 2: They don't even enter the house and they leave. So

479
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: it's weird because the police are sort of adamant that

480
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: this is a home invasion gone wrong. They didn't mean

481
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 2: to shoot anyone. They were just there to rob people,

482
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 2: but they didn't take anything, and they were there for

483
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: a really long time, so it doesn't really make sense.

484
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: And so that's sort of where I pick up this,

485
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm left with. And then it's like

486
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: here you go, like figure it out.

487
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 5: And so Omar was there? Correct? Yeah, was he shot?

488
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 2: No?

489
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 5: Why do you think that is?

490
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: It's a good question.

491
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: I think that he wasn't the target, so he wasn't shot,

492
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: or he.

493
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 5: Was with the other guys.

494
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I could see a scenario where they,

495
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: you know, they barge into the house next door and

496
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: maybe they get spooked by it and IDI person there

497
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: and they just pulled the trigger. But that would also

498
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: mean that Omar was there and saw that happen.

499
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

500
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: I mean there's three people in the other house where

501
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: they've spent a lot of time, and they've seen their faces,

502
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: which is obviously like in all of these stories, like

503
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: if you see someone's face, it's almost like you know

504
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 2: you're gonna die. And none of them are hurt at all.

505
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: So it's just so strange my dad didn't have a

506
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: gun in his hand.

507
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 3: I mean, there's just a lot of weird.

508
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: Things that would make you wonder like why shoot? And

509
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: also if the people who I believe were there were

510
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: really there, they knew my dad. So even if they're

511
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: spooked that my dad's at the door, he's unarmed. He's

512
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: gonna immediately see someone he knows. Even if he has

513
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: beef with them. He's probably just gonna be like, get

514
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: out of here. His daughter's in the bedroom, Like, he's

515
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: not gonna do anything. So it's very strange that if

516
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: you do know this, you're still going to shoot them

517
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: and it be an accident.

518
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 3: I don't know, it just seems to you.

519
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's strange.

520
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: I also do believe there were like four ish people

521
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: there and only one of them could have done it,

522
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: And so I'm very curious out of these four people

523
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: who did.

524
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 5: It forensically here like there was one shot.

525
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

526
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, if there's four people, only one person shot,

527
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: if they all shot, there'd be four shots. So but

528
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: that also means that there is potentially three witnesses to

529
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: somebody shooting.

530
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

531
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 1: And I guess if you were there and covered this up,

532
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: I guess you were also in some way a part

533
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 1: of this crime.

534
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

535
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: Do you know how tight these individuals were then and

536
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: how tight they may be now?

537
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 5: And you know, all these years.

538
00:29:53,760 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: Later, yeah, they were pretty close at the time leagues,

539
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: if you will, but also like lifelong friends. I mean,

540
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: this is a small town, so they have known each

541
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: other for a really long time at this point. There

542
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: are a couple of them that I believe are still

543
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 2: connected to each other through LLC filings I've found, but

544
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: I don't.

545
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 5: Know those ventures that have not or been started or

546
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 5: something or what do you mean.

547
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, their names are on it, or their names

548
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: are on bank accounts together for these businesses or things

549
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: like that. Now I don't that doesn't necessarily speak to

550
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: if they're like buddies still and like hang out.

551
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: But but like presumably you only do that with people

552
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: you kind of trust and still communicate with.

553
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think that the lifelong trust,

554
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: especially in these towns, with what they're presumably doing, is

555
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: really important. So I do think that some of them

556
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: are still connected. Three of them are currently in prison.

557
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: So there's that. And one is not.

558
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: Having you know, meticulously gone through a lot of police

559
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: reports and interviews and all the evidence that you could

560
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: get your hands on in this case, you know, kind

561
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: of shaping the.

562
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 5: Narrative of your father's murder. Are there any things that.

563
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: You believe that the police really mishandled in this case

564
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: that changed the course of it forever, to the point

565
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: where you know, all these years later that his daughter's

566
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: having to make a podcast to try to figure out

567
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 1: what happened.

568
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 3: Yes, they.

569
00:31:52,320 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: From the beginning, for whatever reason, displayed incredible negligence. I

570
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: say that because benefit of the doubt, which I don't

571
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: know if they deserve. It's a small town, there's not

572
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: a lot of funding, not great staffing. The first person

573
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: on the scene was a traffic cop who was on

574
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: his way to work and got the call.

575
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: So he showed up.

576
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: You know, like he's not gonna know he's there to

577
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: give parking tickets.

578
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 5: And speeding tickets.

579
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you know, but at the same time, I,

580
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: as we've discussed, am not that smart, and I would

581
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: know to tape off a scene, or swipe for fingerprints

582
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 2: or look for gunpowder residue on hands, Like there's certain

583
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: things that like you just know from watching any television show.

584
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: And they never taped off the scene. My family was

585
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: walking in and out of the house within minutes of

586
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: this happening. I don't know that they have any evidence

587
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: at all. And so yeah, I mean there's lots of

588
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: places within this investigation where it could have been solved

589
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: or there could have been hope of it getting solved.

590
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: And now it's really up to three of those four

591
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: guys saying, Hey, I don't want to go to prison

592
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. I'll tell you who

593
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: did it. Yeah, And I don't know if that will

594
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: ever happen.

595
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: Because because really, like based on the way that you're

596
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: saying that they handled the scene and how they unfolded,

597
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: there wasn't any major collection of evidentiary items that are

598
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: in some locker somewhere that.

599
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 5: Could be the smoking gun.

600
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: All these years later, it's kind of like a whole

601
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: bunch of nothing, and the crime scene was tainted and

602
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: now it's just about he shit, he said, she said,

603
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: And you got a group of people.

604
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 5: But like the physical evidence is almost like.

605
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: Not enough to really I guess point anywhere unless there

606
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: is something that you and unless there is something there

607
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: in terms of like I guess the type of gun

608
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: or or the means.

609
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 3: It's so weird.

610
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a handgun and they couldn't find it.

611
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: When my sister got home from giving her statement at

612
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: the police station, my dad had a lot of guns

613
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: in the house. He was a drug dealer, so he

614
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: had several and I also think that's what's so strange

615
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: is on his way to the front door, he never

616
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 2: grabbed one, which just leads me to believe he knew

617
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: the people obviously on his front porch, because I if

618
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 2: he didn't, he would have grabbed a gun. But when

619
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: my sister got home, all of the guns had been

620
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: removed from the house and she never.

621
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 3: Saw them again.

622
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 5: Stolen removed, I.

623
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: Mean to find stolen they were. They were taken by

624
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: family members because the police told them to get them

625
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 2: all out of the house, so they loaded them up

626
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: on a I mean they're like they've been sold given away. Okay, Yeah,

627
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: they were loaded up onto a truck bed and driven

628
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: out and who knows where they ended up. So my uncle,

629
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: because one of the detectives who was my dad's sort

630
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: of like person he reported to as an informant when

631
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: he arrived, told my uncle Curtis.

632
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 3: To get all of the guns out of the house,

633
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 3: so he did.

634
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 5: Why would he do that, It's.

635
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 3: A great question.

636
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: There's a lot of speculation in the town that my

637
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: dad was killed with one of his own guns. I

638
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: don't know logistically how that would be possible. These people

639
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: never entered the house, but it is an interesting theory

640
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: given sort of that information. But yeah, I don't know.

641
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: I mean, my sixteen year old sister shows up, sees

642
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: a bunch of guns on a truck bed covered by

643
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: a blanket being driven away, walks inside of a house

644
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: where all of her family members are going in and

645
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 2: out after her dad has been murdered in the living room,

646
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: and every gun that was in her house is gone.

647
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 5: So there is no like the gun that killed your dad.

648
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 5: No one knows where that is.

649
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: No, and my sister and her mom, we have different moms.

650
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: Two weeks after this happened, found a bullet casing in

651
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: the living room of my dad's house. So like that

652
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 2: wasn't even like put in a bag. I mean, it's

653
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 2: just like so obvious that.

654
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 5: The only one is that the only bully, the only one.

655
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: That's the only one she saw. Yeah.

656
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 1: Interesting, And so do you believe that to be the

657
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: actual bullet that was used in the gun?

658
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, because again I don't know what the

659
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: police if they found one, if they put it in

660
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: a bag, if it's somewhere in a you know, filing

661
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: cabinet somewhere. But it's possible, but it's also possible that

662
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: it's not. It's hard to say. I also don't know

663
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: like if that bullet casing came from a handgun or

664
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 2: something else, Like my sister wouldn't know that either.

665
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: Have you asked the police these questions like are they

666
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: cooperative in the way of, hey, you know, do you

667
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: guys have a bullet casing from the crime scene of

668
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: my dad's murdered Have you been able to ask that

669
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: kind of question? And if so, do they have a

670
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: response to that.

671
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

672
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: So I have talked to them just a handful of times.

673
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 2: Once was in person, I had gotten the case files.

674
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: I read through them all, and then I drove again

675
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: from Portland to Ohio to meet with them face to face,

676
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: and sort of that was more of like, let's just

677
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: go through these case files. I'm really curious, like, according

678
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: to you, what really happened that day? And then I

679
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 2: went back and I sent an email of like, here's

680
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: some questions I have. I've led to get back on

681
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: the phone or a zoom or just respond to this

682
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: email with the answer to these questions. And there were

683
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: like ten one of them was because they were very

684
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: weird about it's an open case and you can't have everything,

685
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: and we've given you what we can, et cetera, et cetera.

686
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: So one of my questions was, I don't need to

687
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: see it, but can I have a list of evidence

688
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: that you have, just so I know what you have

689
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: what you don't have. And that was one of the

690
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: questions on that list. And they've never responded to that request.

691
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: So as I talk to them, which it's been a

692
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: year since we've spoken, I always bring that up, and

693
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 2: it's just they just don't respond.

694
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: The bullet casing found by your family, where's that one gone?

695
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: For sure?

696
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 5: What do you mean gone? Where did it go?

697
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 3: Probably thrown away?

698
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 5: Why so?

699
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 3: I mean, my sister.

700
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: Was sixteen, very close to my dad, much closer than

701
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 2: I was, struggled very hard with this. I mean, she

702
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: was in the house when it happened. She called nine

703
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 2: to one to one.

704
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 3: Her mom.

705
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: Was not. I mean, my dad took care of my sister,

706
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 2: so when her mom sort of stepped in to take

707
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: on that role, it was very much like and I

708
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: think everyone in my family had this mentality of like,

709
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: let's just move on from this. So as things were,

710
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: you know, being found. My sister now will reach out

711
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 2: if she hears something or oh I heard this name.

712
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: But I think at the time, I mean I didn't

713
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: see my sister for twenty years. I think it was like,

714
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: let's just move on.

715
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 5: She wanted to almost purge herself from this and cleansing,

716
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 5: like this is a horrible experience. I don't even want

717
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 5: it to be around these things.

718
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

719
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that, you know, reopening this on

720
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: your own a chord and poking around and talking to

721
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, friends and family members who I would imagine

722
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: some of them don't want to talk about this right

723
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: for you know, good and bad reasons. And you know,

724
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: has there been any strain on your relationship with your

725
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: family since you started creating this podcast?

726
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 3: What family? Yeah?

727
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 5: Why do you feel like it? Did you feel like

728
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 5: that before you started?

729
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a weird position I'm in because I did.

730
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: I didn't really know them before doing this.

731
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 5: Okay, so in a way that may did that help

732
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 5: you maybe like to be able.

733
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: To just yeah, it was definitely. I knew that the

734
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: response was going to be like where did this bitch

735
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 2: come from?

736
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 5: Like?

737
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,439
Speaker 3: What are you doing? Why?

738
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: Are you here, you know, uprooting our lives like this,

739
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 2: and in ways it made me a little numb.

740
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 3: But I am.

741
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 2: Such an EmPATH that, like it took a huge toll

742
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 2: on me just knowing that. Like, I mean, I get

743
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: upset if like I cried the other day in the

744
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 2: car because I accidentally cut someone off and they were

745
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: like yelling at me, and like that's the type of

746
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: person I am. So even if I'm like, I don't

747
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: really care about them, the fact that they're mad at me,

748
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, they're mad at me, and

749
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: so I don't like that.

750
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, you don't want to be the cause of more hurt.

751
00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you feel like they're you know, despite the

752
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: reopening of wounds, which is never fun. It's never it's

753
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: always ugly, it's not a pretty thing, but it it's

754
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: something that has to be done if there's a serious

755
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: attempt being made to try and figure out what happened, right,

756
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: do you feel like your family is on board with

757
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened despite how difficult it

758
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: may be to I don't know see and hear all this.

759
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

760
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: I think there are family members that want this solved

761
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 2: for sure. And I mean my sister is such a

762
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: good example. Actually, she doesn't love the podcast. She's not

763
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 2: loving you know, my method of doing this, but she's

764
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: so supportive.

765
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 5: Why not.

766
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: She's pretty private and wasn't that enthused about all of that.

767
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 5: Don't talk about me.

768
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: I have a job then yeah, yeah, just basic like

769
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for this, right, Yeah.

770
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: But she's super supportive and she's like, you have to

771
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 2: do what you need to do for closure to figure

772
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: out what happened. And she thinks that I'm close and

773
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: wants me to find the answer. So I think that

774
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 2: there's that as well. But she's super supportive, and I

775
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: think that's the perfect example of like, wouldn't be my method,

776
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,439
Speaker 2: but I get it, and I'm here for you. And

777
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: I have other family members that are sort of just like,

778
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,959
Speaker 2: leave me out of it. I don't really care about

779
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: all this. I just want to move on with my life.

780
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: And then I have family members that are like, if

781
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: I ever get the chance, I'm going to put a

782
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 2: bullet in your head. Right.

783
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 3: So there's a lot there's a spectrums of everything, you know.

784
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot of moving parts and you know,

785
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: feelings and ties, and you're dealing with family, and you

786
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: know you're not trying to hurt cause any more hurt

787
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: than was already caused, right, Right, And I think what's

788
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: in fortunate about investigating a cold case, like, at least

789
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: from what I've learned personally, is that no matter what,

790
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: somebody is going to be upset because it's upsetting. The

791
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: whole thing is upsetting, right, Revisiting an upsetting events or

792
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: you know, these series of unknowns that you've kind of

793
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: pushed out of your your brain a little bit because

794
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: they were driving you crazy. You know, revisiting that is

795
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: upsetting because something upsetting happened. And so it's kind of

796
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: like it's the shitty part about finding the truth that's

797
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: that's like a further aftermath of what somebody did in

798
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: the first place by murdering by murdering your Yeah, do

799
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: you think that you know throughout all the episodes you've

800
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 1: done so far, and the people you've talked to and

801
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: learning along the way as you as you're growing as

802
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: a storyteller and an amateur investigator yourself, Now, do you

803
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: feel like you do you feel like you've been able

804
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: to uncover anything new or important enough that gives hope

805
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: to a potential resolution down the road.

806
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 3: Yes, it's such a weird.

807
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: Set of circumstances because I entered this naively thinking that

808
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 2: my dad's murder was a mystery. I think a lot

809
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 2: of people know exactly what happened that day and exactly

810
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: who was there, and have just been so eager to

811
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: move on with their lives that they just don't want

812
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: to talk about it.

813
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so.

814
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: I think that I have figured it out, which is

815
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 2: great because I don't give a fuck. I'm going to

816
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: tell everyone who killed my dad, right, But these people

817
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: have been able to get away with it for so

818
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 2: long that, yeah, I do feel like I've uncovered something.

819
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 2: But now I'm sort of unfortunately learning how not mysterious

820
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: this really was, and how half of this town probably

821
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: has known the entire time.

822
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: What really happened.

823
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 5: Wasn't some big conspiracy.

824
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,959
Speaker 1: It's just like, Hey, there was a couple of dudes

825
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: here one day and they kind of all know what

826
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: happened and they just never said anything, which is almost

827
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,240
Speaker 1: kind of I mean, would piss you off, probably because

828
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: it's you know, if it was that simple, then why

829
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: haven't we Why hasn't it you know, come to a resolution, right.

830
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And I think that there's lots of reasons

831
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 2: for that. I think that, I mean, we're talking about

832
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: career criminals, right, they yes, they know what they're doing.

833
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: They all have each other's backs. And also it's such

834
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 2: a unique part of the country where the border of

835
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 2: Ohio and West Virginia is really important. West Virginia doesn't

836
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: have the death penalty Ohio does. They killed my dad

837
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: on the Ohio side, if they get charged for murder,

838
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: it's not up to me or anyone else except the

839
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 2: prosecutors and the DA what they get charged with. And

840
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 2: so there's this level of like, I mean, I've talked

841
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: to a lot of people who are around at the time,

842
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: dealing drugs at the time, and they all would agree,

843
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: you'd rather get caught in West Virginia than Ohio for anything.

844
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 5: Well, if the murder happened in Ohio, I'm assuming that

845
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 5: that's where it would be prosecuted or.

846
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 3: If yeah, so they'd be screwed potentially.

847
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 5: Right.

848
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 1: So, if you're aware of these individuals and you feel

849
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: like you know pretty strongly that they know something more

850
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: than they're telling and they've kept secrets and it's not

851
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: this big mystery that it has been made out to be.

852
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 5: For your whole life.

853
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: What next steps do you take to try to infiltrate that?

854
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 1: And I don't know, get somebody to say something or

855
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: engage in a conversation.

856
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: It's a I'm in a really interesting position currently because

857
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: I've actually spoken to one of these individuals face to face.

858
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 5: How they go?

859
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: I mean, it was wild.

860
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 5: Was it a surprise knock knock or were you? Did

861
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 5: you plan?

862
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: No, it was it was planned. They reached out to me.

863
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 2: I thought they were in prison, was planning to sort

864
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: of write them a letter and get added to their

865
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: visitor list and visit them behind glass.

866
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 3: And I woke up one morning.

867
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: To a message on Facebook and they had been released

868
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 2: and they had heard the show and they reached out

869
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 2: to me.

870
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 5: Why did they reach out to you? Did they tell

871
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 5: you why they wanted to reach out?

872
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they wanted me to know the truth, which was

873
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: their truth is that they weren't there and had nothing.

874
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 3: To do with it.

875
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 5: But what's the other truth.

876
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 3: That they pulled the trigger?

877
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 5: So you think that there's a potentially this person is

878
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 5: just saying it I did nothing, But maybe he's really

879
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 5: saying that he did it.

880
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's very possible that this person was

881
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: there and did it, and now he's back in prison,

882
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 2: and two of the other guys are also in prison,

883
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: and there's one that is not, and he seems to

884
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: have sort of turned his life around. He works for

885
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 2: the Public Defender's office, and I think if anyone has

886
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: the most to lose, it's someone like that, and they

887
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: would be willing to tell me what happened in exchange for.

888
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 3: Something else. So that's my only hope at this point.

889
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it is interesting to me that this individual,

890
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: on his own accord, reached out to you to say

891
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: that he wants you to know the truth, and his

892
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: truth was just simply that I didn't do anything right. Yeah,

893
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: because I you know, unless you, I guess, really definitively

894
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 1: pointing the finger at specifically this person.

895
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 5: It seems a little bit out of line. It seems

896
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 5: a little I did.

897
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: And maybe you know that does that require or the

898
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: follow up?

899
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: I mean no, I mean it seems it strange. And

900
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 2: I mean even our our interaction it was all so bizarre.

901
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 2: I mean, just the calmness, the I mean it was

902
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 2: it was like I was talking to his like a sociopath,

903
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 2: like it was so weird. But yeah, I mean he

904
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 2: says he didn't do it. I mean there was a

905
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: point in time where I'm like, I mean, if this

906
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 2: guy killed my dad, would he sit across a table

907
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: from me? I mean, that just seems so crazy.

908
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 5: But I don't know.

909
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: Maybe he would if he was really spooked about getting

910
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: caught and is all of a sudden doing you know,

911
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: completely bizarre drastic measures to give the opposite impression.

912
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, I have a theory.

913
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: At the time, he was really adamant that he had

914
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 2: just been released from and he received a seven year

915
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: sentence for a drug charge and was released because he

916
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 2: appealed and won. And his appeal was that he was

917
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: set up by the Belmont County Sheriff's Department, and so

918
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: him winning sort of set this standard that like, he

919
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: gets set up for crime sometimes by Belmont County, Right,

920
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 2: so if they think he killed my dad, maybe that's

921
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 2: a setup too. But when I talked to him, he

922
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: was very much like, I want to help you. We

923
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: can work together. And again there's that selfish motive of course,

924
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 2: of if I find someone else who did it, then

925
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 2: it wasn't you. But a few months later he gets

926
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: arrested again on a massive drug trafficking charge. So I

927
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 2: feel like there was almost this hope that like if

928
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: I could come in and be like, look at how

929
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 2: corrupt Belmont County is, that serves him and then he

930
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: maybe knew this charge was coming down the line and

931
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: it would have all worked out for him, And so

932
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know that obviously when I met up with him.

933
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I'm just trying to play all

934
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: these scenarios in my head to try to justify, you know,

935
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: why anyone would want to meet up with me and

936
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: sit down with me, and none of the other guys

937
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 2: have done this. I reached out to Wan to talk

938
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 2: to them through a mutual friend and they said no,

939
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 2: so I'll just show up at their house.

940
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, are you still in contact with the guy

941
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: who is now back in prison?

942
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 3: Not since he went to prison, he would call me

943
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 3: like once a week.

944
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 5: Are you able to write him or like make contact?

945
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously it's more difficult now.

946
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I could. I haven't yet, it's

947
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 2: still fairly new, but yeah I.

948
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 5: Could, Like is this dude facing like hard time now?

949
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

950
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 5: Or he'll be there for a while. I guess either way.

951
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 3: I'll be there for a little bit. I don't know.

952
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 3: It's so weird because it's just the lifestyle.

953
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: Right, They go in to prison for like five six

954
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 2: years and they come out, and then they go back

955
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: and then they come out.

956
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: Has that shaped your approach moving forward in the next installment?

957
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: So I have ideas for sort of what Part three

958
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: will look like, and it includes a much more.

959
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 3: Like quote unquote official approach.

960
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: So now I'm sort of at a point where I've

961
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 2: done all the research, I've built the context, I've gotten

962
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: familiar with the world. Now if all I can do

963
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: is like mail a file to the Belmont County Sheriff's Department,

964
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: Like what's in it?

965
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 3: What do I put in there? Do I say?

966
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: I found this and these people are connected, and I

967
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: have evidence of this LLC and this bank account and

968
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: this happening, And at this time this was this person's

969
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: email and just a list of like my own kind

970
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 2: of case file almost And so Part three is going

971
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: to be me sort of assembling that and hopefully putting

972
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: it to bed on my end, like this is what

973
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 2: I have, and this is what I've found, and like, yes,

974
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 2: do something with this or don't. But you're gonna look

975
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 2: like assholes if you don't, because now the whole world

976
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 2: is watching you.

977
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 5: Is your plan to mail it? Literally?

978
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll probably bring it myself.

979
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: I mean I think the best way to do it

980
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: is call a meeting that they eventually have to just

981
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: say okay, fine, and you just sit there and you

982
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: unpack it and give it to them physically and we

983
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: get to hear what the fuck they say?

984
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean that that.

985
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

986
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 3: I would.

987
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 2: I would want to, you know, go in person, because

988
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: there's little things like I'd really love to test. Omar

989
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 2: says that these guys poured rubbing alcohol on them when

990
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 2: they broke into the house, and the detective said that

991
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: he could smell the rubbing alcohol on them. But I

992
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 2: think that's kind of strange. So I'm going to like

993
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 2: dump rubbing alcohol on clothes and let them sit outside

994
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: for twenty minutes and then go back and see if

995
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,439
Speaker 2: I can smell it. And like I'm going to do

996
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 2: like my own sort of yeah, like line by line investigation,

997
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 2: which I haven't really done because I've been talking to

998
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 2: people and trying to get information and doing all this stuff.

999
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, my approach is going to get a little

1000
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 2: more aggressive and be a little different. But it's almost

1001
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: like this is it, Like this is all I have

1002
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 2: left to do, and this is all I can do,

1003
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: and then it's really like not up to me, like

1004
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 2: they have to decide what to do with that.

1005
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: So do you feel like the lack of control in

1006
00:56:56,200 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: the ultimate outcome in real life and as a creative

1007
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: person and your narrative is maddening?

1008
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 2: It's horrific. It's it's really tough. I'm very type A

1009
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: and I'm a LEO, so I definitely try to control

1010
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: everything I'm you know, I'm a producer, so it's just

1011
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 2: like I produce my life, I project manage my laundry

1012
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: like I just am always in that mindset. And so

1013
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: it is really really hard to be working with a

1014
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: scenario and people that are really kind of doing whatever

1015
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: they will and I have no control at all over it.

1016
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 2: I can just tell the story as it's happening. It's

1017
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: a nightmare.

1018
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: Just in conclusion, Since you've made a podcast and you've

1019
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: put yourself out there, you know, you've had some really

1020
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: cool covering on your show and your dad's story, your story,

1021
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: so like what has your experience been with starting with

1022
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: the positive in terms of I don't know, have people

1023
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: reached out and been touched by your story and shown

1024
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 1: their support in that way and that been a positive thing.

1025
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been met with so much support. It's been

1026
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 2: honestly a bit overwhelming, only because when I did this,

1027
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 2: I mean it was me and a couple friends in

1028
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: my living room doing.

1029
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: This and then like hitting uploads.

1030
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 2: So for anyone at all to be listening is like

1031
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: always so wild and it's been really great just to

1032
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 2: know that, you know, it was a fine line because

1033
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 2: while I wanted this story out there, it's so wildly

1034
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: personal you kind of wonder like is this going to

1035
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 2: resonate with anyone? Like will anybody even understand this enough

1036
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 2: to like want to listen because it is very like

1037
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 2: personal and specific.

1038
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: It's my story, right, Like do people care about my

1039
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: story like this a little bit? Yeah, Like you know,

1040
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: I get that.

1041
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 2: So it was really nice to sort of see, how,

1042
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: you know, I open up about my mom struggling with

1043
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: addiction and what it was like growing up with an addict,

1044
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 2: and you know, those types of things, and maybe someone

1045
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 2: who doesn't relate to their dad getting murdered. They understand

1046
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: other elements of the story, and I think that has

1047
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 2: been really great to sort of see the impact of

1048
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 2: that and you know, going back to like what's it

1049
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 2: all for, Like that is a nice reminder sometimes. Yeah,

1050
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: and then on the other side, I think it's funny.

1051
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 2: I'm always like, I'm just such a like comedic person.

1052
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: I get really sensitive and I will cry about it

1053
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 2: in the show, but then I'll leave and I'll post

1054
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: on my Instagram like the worst comment and like laugh

1055
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 2: about it because it is just like, at the end

1056
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 2: of the day, so funny to me that someone says

1057
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: the crazy stuff that they say. And I always refer

1058
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 2: to like anyone who listens to my show. I would

1059
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 2: feel weird if I was like, oh, they're my fan,

1060
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 2: Like that's weird. They listen to my podcast, and like

1061
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: if I know them in real life, they're my friend.

1062
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 2: And I love looking at like the one star reviews

1063
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 2: and I'm like, those are my fans, Like those are

1064
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: the fans for sure.

1065
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: The times they don't miss it, yeah, fucking yeah, episode.

1066
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 2: They don't miss an episode, So it is I try

1067
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 2: to be late about it.

1068
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 3: I'm sure.

1069
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: Some days I'm like I'm quitting because Susie hates my

1070
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 2: podcast and thinks that I'm bad at this and hates

1071
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 2: that I read so slow and blah blah blah blah blah.

1072
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 2: There's like one comment that was like listen at one

1073
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 2: point two five or two times or not at all.

1074
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 5: Like said okay with Jesus, Okay.

1075
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that escalated very quickly.

1076
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's just I don't know it is

1077
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,439
Speaker 2: what it is because I guess the on the other

1078
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 2: side of it, because it's my story. I'm like, there

1079
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: is no critique you can make that I can change, Like,

1080
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: I can't do anything about this because the story and

1081
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: the meat of this is not changeable.

1082
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 3: Like this is just the reality.

1083
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like you're telling a story that is your story.

1084
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 3: So yeah, like I can't do anything about this, So.

1085
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 5: I'm not sorry, like it this is what happened in

1086
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 5: my life.

1087
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, and like next next script I write, I'll

1088
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: send it to you for no Y, but for this

1089
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,400
Speaker 2: yeah yeah yeah.

1090
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 5: So what are we looking forward to next?

1091
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you have a big summer, you have, you know,

1092
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: a lot of episodes you've been working on. You know,

1093
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: you've only dove deeper into this case and I feel

1094
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: like I just my good instinct is that you're going

1095
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: to keep uncovering more and more, and you know, no

1096
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: matter how much time it takes or the level of

1097
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:09,160
Speaker 1: cooperation at the right particular time, I think that there's

1098
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: enough momentum there and a force to be reckoned with

1099
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: that it's going to force a hand of something eventually.

1100
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: So in your eyes, how do you see, like, how

1101
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: do you want this to play out? How does this

1102
01:02:25,520 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: how does the the podcast chapter of you investigating your dad?

1103
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 5: And or does it?

1104
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 3: God? I hope so right?

1105
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 5: Right?

1106
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 3: I think?

1107
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, in a perfect world, obviously, I

1108
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 2: think it ends with solving the case. Obviously an ideal

1109
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 2: scenario is like through the court system and like a prosecution. Yes,

1110
01:02:56,520 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: but I'm okay with just knowing, so so yeah, figuring

1111
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 2: it out in some sense and knowing definitively like knowing

1112
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 2: because someone who was there said or someone confesses or whatever.

1113
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 3: Just knowing the truth I think would be great.

1114
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 2: You know, there's been a lot of people that have

1115
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 2: reached out with their own stories and sort of looking

1116
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 2: for help and answers and a lot of questions about

1117
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 2: you know, what is next and what I want to

1118
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 2: do with this sort of Frankenstein that I've built. I

1119
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 2: want to make movies, So I'm gonna make a movie soon,

1120
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 2: and that is going to be sort of my next

1121
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: hyper fixation. And I think that I need a break

1122
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 2: from whatever I've done. Sure, so if there's a world

1123
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: in which that sort of revives as like another person's

1124
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 2: story or helping someone else, is I'm not saying no

1125
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: to but uh yeah, no, I have a slate of

1126
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: projects that I want to make that have nothing to

1127
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 2: do with.

1128
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 5: This.

1129
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 2: I would say, after this or while this is happening,

1130
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 2: you could probably expect to see a Madison McGee film

1131
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 2: pretty soon. I am talking to one of my favorite,

1132
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 2: all time favorite creators about what will happen eventually when

1133
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: this podcast becomes a scripted something, so.

1134
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 5: That that still is a goal, right, Like you would

1135
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 5: love to see the.

1136
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: HBO treatment of this tale? Yeah right, Yeah, that'd that'd

1137
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: be very cool.

1138
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1139
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: I think there's a really unique opportunity to tell this

1140
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 2: story because of the location and the demographic of people

1141
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 2: that the story sort of talks about that deserve to

1142
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 2: be seen on television.

1143
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: Yep, it's got the Yeah, it's got the setting, it's

1144
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: got the time period.

1145
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,919
Speaker 5: It's got the race issue that is.

1146
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 1: You know, people are more aware of now today than

1147
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: they were I guess yesterday and years prior. And it's

1148
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: also got you at the center spearheading a real life

1149
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, investigation, and it's a fucking mystery, right, And yeah,

1150
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: people like mysteries because yeah, it drives them crazy.

1151
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 5: To not know what happened, at least for me, you.

1152
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 2: Know, totally that's funny. I envision it and I put this.

1153
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 2: I just spent all night writing this sort of pitch.

1154
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 2: But it's almost I want it to feel just as

1155
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 2: much like a coming of age story as it does

1156
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: a mystery, because I think it shouldn't feel like a

1157
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 2: crime show, but it is, but it shouldn't feel like that.

1158
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 1: And that's something you probably do even better through of

1159
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: like visually, right, like that you know, six year old

1160
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: you to sixteen year old you and like kind of

1161
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: I don't know how it would be structured, but you know,

1162
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: flashbacks and like telling a story in a way that

1163
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: like can really express how that shaped you and the

1164
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: dynamics of what you're getting into in modern day.

1165
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 5: Right.

1166
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,959
Speaker 1: I think that's like in itself is like a really

1167
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: powerful character and like a protagonists. Yeah, but what do

1168
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: I know? I don't I'm not a writer. But but

1169
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: let me know when you want me to executive produce it,

1170
01:06:53,480 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 1: and i'll I'll send you an invoice. Perfect, perfect, Well,

1171
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 1: it was great catching up with you, and we should

1172
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 1: plan like some sort of Boston trip. I know Meredith

1173
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 1: will totally be coming at some point.

1174
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like she just got back from somewhere

1175
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 3: in Italy.

1176
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, for like a Taylor Swift thing. It sounded cool.

1177
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 5: Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, but yeah that could.

1178
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: Be fun and we could maybe even yeah, do some

1179
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 1: content and just have fun and like I don't know,

1180
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,479
Speaker 1: shoot some ship, record some shit, just kind of see

1181
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: what happens.

1182
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 3: We need to make a song, okay, anyways, all.

1183
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 5: Right, well send me the beat.

1184
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, this was great, thanks for having me,

1185
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 3: all right.

1186
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:41,200
Speaker 5: I'll see how soon.

1187
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 6: Talking to Death is a production of tenderfoot TV and

1188
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 6: iHeart podcast created and hosted by Payne Lindsay. For Tenderfoot TV,

1189
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 6: executive producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright. Co executive

1190
01:07:56,240 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 6: producer is Mike Rudy. For iHeart Podcasts, executive pretty users

1191
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 6: are Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with original music by

1192
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 6: Makeup and Vanity Set. Additional production by Mike Rooney, Dylan Harrington,

1193
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 6: Sean Nerney, Dayton Cole and Gustav Wild for Cohedo. Production

1194
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,799
Speaker 6: support by Tracy Kaplan, Mara Davis, and Trevor Young. Mixing

1195
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 6: and mastering by Cooper Skinner and Dayton Cole. Our cover

1196
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 6: art was created by Rob Sheridan. Check out our website

1197
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 6: Talking to Death podcast dot com.

1198
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode of Talking to Death.

1199
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but if you

1200
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:42,559
Speaker 1: want ad free listening and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

1201
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts or go to tenderfootplus

1202
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 1: dot com