1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Remember what podcast is this for? Uh, Moira, that's a 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: perfect way to open this episode because it's it could 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: happen here, the podcast about things falling apart um and 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: putting them back together. Sometimes not often enough because I'm 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: a hack and a fraud. Um. But um, this is 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: Robert Evans and my guest today is Moira Meltzer Cohen. Moira, 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: you are my lawyer and you are my editor. You 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: edited after the Revolution book in stores now, so you're 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: you're you're many many things to me, um, and today 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna help me understand the Supreme Court. Well that's 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: a let me be a little more specific about why 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: we're chatting today on for the internet sake. Um. The 13 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court last week issued a ruling, and there may 14 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: have been another ruling by the time you hear this, 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: but this specific ruling was about a case that had 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: to do with what's called a bivens action. Um. If 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: you have seen people talking about this Supreme Court ruling online, 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: it has probably been with them sharing an image of 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the United States that shows the hundred mile zone where 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: border patrol is able to operate, um, and being like now, 21 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: because of this ruling, border patrol can come into your 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: house with impunity and do whatever they want to you. Um. 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of like stuff said about this ruling, 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: and as is often the case when people are get 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: really up in arms about the niche aspects of a 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: court ruling, they're not entirely correct about what the ruling does. Um. 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: The hundred mile zone is absolutely a real thing, and 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the Feds can do all sorts of funked up shipped 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: to you in your house. But that is, UM, let's 30 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: talk about this, yeah, UM sure, So I think the 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: first place to start is people are always asking me 32 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: when can the Feds kick in my door? My girlfriend 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: always says when it's closed? But I say is whenever 34 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: they want to, uh what might change from case to cases, 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: they rationalize it in court later. Um. And so this 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: is this is really a case that further reinforces the 37 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: fact that for many, many years, UM, federal agents, in 38 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: particular border control have been able, have had a lot 39 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: of power to conduct searches if they rationalize those search 40 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: is with respect to immigration or in this case the 41 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: even more hype term national security. So um, this is 42 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: not new. The federal statute outlining the powers and duties 43 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: of border officers was past I think in ninety two, 44 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: and I believe always said that border agents can conduct 45 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: searches within quote a reasonable distance of the border. I 46 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: think case law has determined that that reasonable distance is 47 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: a hundred miles. We're not really looking at anything particularly 48 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: new here. Um. So that one of the things about 49 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: this hundred miles, as people keep saying, oh, the Fourth 50 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: Amendment doesn't exist within a hundred miles of the border, Um, 51 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: it does. This is not considered to be be a violation 52 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: with the Fourth Amendment because a search within a reasonable 53 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: distance of the border is considered a reasonable search. Right. 54 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: The Fourth Amendment protects you from usable searching, and this 55 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: is statutorily considered a reasonable search. Right. So I feel 56 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: like a lot of the media around this particular case 57 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: is kind of an exercise and extreme point missing. It's 58 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: both an overreaction to some things that are outrageous but 59 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: are in no way new. Yeah. Um, everyone's sharing these maps, 60 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: like you said, um, And again it's one of those 61 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: things where it's like we're not saying there's not a 62 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: lot of that this is not a problem that there 63 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: are problems with the there's that the hundred mile zone 64 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: isn't a problem the border patrol. There's not a lot 65 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: of messed up stuff that they do. It's it's the 66 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: idea that like this ruling came out and suddenly there's 67 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: no more Fourth Amendment, right like, which is how some 68 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: people have interpreted it. Because the Internet is a machine 69 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: that devours context, that's right, social media, I should say, yeah, sure. 70 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: So So this case is is called Egbert v. Bull, 71 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: which I just think it's a marvelous case name. And 72 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: these are all incredible. The original Bivens case is Bivens 73 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: versus six unknown named agents, which I also elect a 74 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: lot six unknown narcotics agents. Yeah, I mean there's a 75 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: lot of sort of wonderful case names. Um my favorite, 76 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: of course is alien B Predator. Um. Yeah, you see 77 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: what I did there, I did, I did. I just 78 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: showed Garrison aliens last weekend, so I was, oh, for 79 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 1: the first time, Yes, marvelous. Uh So, I don't know. 80 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: I think what's happening here is that even among people 81 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: who kind of have a sense of history or an analysis, 82 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: there's maybe this lingering belief that the legal system is 83 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: supposed to protect us, or that maybe at some time 84 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: it did protect us, and it just like persists like 85 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: a vestigial tale of of like hope, Yeah, but I 86 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of love this case. I could read this case 87 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: and um, at least as Clarence Thomas describes him. The 88 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: plaintiff in this case whose bool is basically the viewpoint 89 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: character from a Steely Dan song like he like appears 90 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: to have sort of spring fully for him from the 91 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: head of Donald Fagan, and he drove off with his 92 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: vanity plate that says smuggler. Honestly, I'm sure you're gonna 93 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: tell me it was something problematic, but sounds like a 94 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: cool dude to me. He spent years playing both sides 95 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: of this game. He would get paid by people to 96 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: smuggle them across the Canadian border, and he'd make them, 97 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: he'd like extort money from them. He'd make them buy 98 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: a room at his hotel, even if they weren't going 99 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: to stay at his hotel, and then he'd charge them 100 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: money for every hour that he spent driving to pick 101 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: them up and take them across to Canada. And then 102 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: he would turn around and get paid by the Feds 103 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: to snitch on the people who had just paid him 104 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: to smuggle them across the border. Chez Yeah all right, 105 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: Now I don't think this guy is cool. Yeah, So 106 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: he basically ends up getting in an altercation with a 107 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: federal agent and he's back to being cool, okay. And 108 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: then when he makes an administrative complaint to the agency, 109 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: the agent six the i R S on him. This is, 110 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: I mean, all right, not good behavior, right right. But now, 111 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: after years of doing dirty work for the Feds, Buol 112 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: is outraged because he never thought tigers would eat his face. 113 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: So he suites the agent under Bivens, which is a 114 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: case that sort of a little bit maybe some times 115 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: gives individuals a very narrowly tenuous, circumscribed opportunity to sue 116 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: federal agents for certain civil rights violations. And um, it's 117 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: not a very strong right and it has been getting 118 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: ever more eviscerated since um. And really, what Bivens does 119 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: is it gives you, uh, you know, in the very 120 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: unlikely event that you win a Bivins claim, it gives 121 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 1: you money damages. It doesn't give you better a law. 122 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't give you better police practices, it doesn't make 123 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: you safer. It's not nothing, but it's not like it's 124 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: it's money. Excusally, what the law can give you right. So, 125 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: unless you're harboring the delusion that there is a sort 126 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: of direct connection between being allowed to try, usually unsuccessfully, 127 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: to recover money from the real government and the self 128 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: control or good behavior of federal agents, Bivins is not 129 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: actually a particularly useful mechanism for pursuing anything that resembles 130 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: like a well developed vision of justice. Right, It's not nothing. 131 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to dismiss the utility of Bivins, 132 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: but it's you know, it's not like it's not a 133 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: strong right, it's not a reliable right, you know, to sue. Um, 134 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: it's not very effective. One of my beloved colleagues, uh 135 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: described it. He said, Bibbins is such a bad doctrine 136 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: that it's taking other doctrines down with it. Right. It's 137 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: just it's, um, it's just such a weak case at 138 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: this point that it trying to trying to use it 139 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: and trying invoke it can actually end up just being counterproductive, 140 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: as it is in this case. Right. Yeah, we have 141 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: a very unsympathetic plaintiff and we have a really weak doctrine. 142 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: So he sues under Bivens. It goes up and down 143 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: the cords, It winds up in the Supreme Court, which 144 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: issues a sort of a bunch of sort of fragmented opinions, 145 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: but ultimately all the justices mostly agree this is not 146 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: a super controversial um question, at least within the context 147 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: of the court itself. Yeah. So the first thing is 148 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: they all say, you don't there's no right to sue 149 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: for money damages under the theory of First Amendment retaliation, meaning, 150 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: um wool had sued the agent for basically for punishing 151 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: him for making a complaint. He's saying, I exercise my 152 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: First Amenment right to make a complaint to the agency 153 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: you work for, and then you punished me by sicking 154 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: the I R S on me. Right, I see why 155 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: that's questionable in the actual like legal documentation. Yeah, so, um, 156 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, the justice to say no, that that's not 157 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: a right that exists. And then they have some different 158 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: thoughts on whether or not you can sue for excessive force. Um. 159 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: But ultimately, the big decision that is made here isn't 160 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: about the border. It's not about the relative impunity of 161 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: border patrol, which has long operated with relative impunity, just 162 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: like the rest of the federal government. Yes, I remember 163 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: that impunity when they were firing tear gas at us. Yeah, 164 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, they decide you can't sue them. Um, 165 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: which if you, if you ever could have sued them, 166 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: I guess in a successful or effective way, And if 167 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: suing them had ever had a meaningful impact on their behavior, 168 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: I guess its opinion would be a real loss. But 169 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: all this opinion really does, as far as I can tell, 170 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and I've spoken with my colleagues and we all agreed 171 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: that the sort of uproar or this particular case is 172 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: a little baffling because all it really does is further 173 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: remove what was already a really inaccessible and pretty weak remedy. 174 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, well you know, and then everyone lost their 175 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: minds and started sharing the a c L s a 176 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: c L used map of the what a hundred miles 177 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: of border looks like and getting really mad on Twitter. 178 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: Yeah and again the hundred mile borders own. I think 179 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: it's fair to say that like, that's a problem. I 180 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: don't like that's that's a bad way for things to work. 181 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: The border patrol, as we talked about in our two 182 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: part are on the border patrol, has a lot of 183 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: massive issues with it. But um, I feel like kind 184 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: of what's happening here is some of this is like 185 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of collective PTSD because of the shock 186 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: of the imminent kind of demise of Row. And so 187 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: I think maybe there's this kind of expectation that every 188 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: ruling issued by the Supreme Court because Funckett is going 189 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: to be UM this kind of like earth shattering like 190 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: end of a fundamental right. And in this case it's 191 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: really just like, no, this is more or less like 192 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: this is not a massive ce change. Yeah. I like 193 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: to say about this kind of thing. It's appalling, but 194 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: it's not surprising. I do want to note, just for 195 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: your listeners, this case does not in any way touch 196 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: our right to sue state level police UM, because there 197 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: is federal legislation called sec that gives us permission to 198 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: sue the police and UM. For some strange reason, the 199 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: federal government has not passed similar legislation allowing us to 200 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: sue them. That's really surprising. I wonder why. I so 201 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: in any case, one of the things the Court says 202 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: in the Bool opinion is that if the Feds wanted 203 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: to be constrained by the citizen re Congress would have 204 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: given us the right to constrain them. So so I 205 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: think this particular case that people have been going out 206 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: about is a great sort of example of the way that, um, 207 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: the sort of the zeitgeist moves inexplicably to make much 208 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: of things that are maybe not all that much and 209 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: while also kind of failing to notice things that are 210 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: really significant. And so I'd like to sort of highlight 211 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: some of those things. Um. I think there actually are 212 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: real reasons to breathe and prepare and gather our courage, um, 213 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: based on what the Supreme Court has done this term. Uh, 214 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: And I love to talk to you about some of 215 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: those things. So I do think there are real reasons 216 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: like that degree and prepare and some months always without 217 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: getting too in the weed, UM, I guess I want 218 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: to talk both about the shadows DoPT it? Which shadow 219 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: doopt it is A is a kind of a more 220 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: recently point term UM. What it means. What it's referring 221 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: to are the hats that are often heard, well, they're 222 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: not heard. They're did by the Supreme Court on the 223 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: basis of the record below, often without oral argument, and 224 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: they're often issued as holding decisions without written opinions, so 225 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: they're often not justified or rationalized or you know, the 226 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: reasoning for the decisions that are made is often not 227 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: made transparent to the public. Okay. Yeah. Times these are 228 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: cases that are sort of highly procedural or there not 229 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: super complicated questions, or there's questions of law where there's 230 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: maybe a circuit what um, and they just need to 231 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: resolve you know what might otherwise be repugnant views of 232 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: the law. Yea. And the Shudo docet has resently include 233 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: a jet penaltycation. Yeah, be decided something of such grades 234 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: imports with decision that are not explained by an opinion 235 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: where the justice is not makes clear the reasoning. Um. 236 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: This is I mean, in my opinion, mh problematic um. 237 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: And it's you know, to the amount of power that 238 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: can be exercised by the superin court. To me, I 239 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: think requires a really intense degree of transparency. If you're 240 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: I think that like the amount of transparency that is 241 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: it's incumbent upon you to have is sort of inversely 242 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: proportionate to the amount of power you exercise. Yeah, that 243 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: makes sense, um. And so the Supreme Court has just 244 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: i mean literally life with death power here and so 245 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: for them to be making decisions on the shadow dott 246 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: about death penalty cases and death penalty juristic. Um is 247 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: just wild. Um, It's troubling, it's frightening. You know, I 248 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: think I can't remember if I talked to you before 249 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: about how about the injuries? Yeah, maybe the show about it, 250 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: but I certainly talked to you about it. We might 251 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: need to do it. It's probably a good idea at 252 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: some point to do a show about it. But yeah, Um, 253 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that makes banjuries so anomalous is 254 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: that they aren't public, right, and that to me, like 255 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: this is a mathema. Well not to me, it is 256 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: in terms of the sort of um received wisdom about 257 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: the American legal system. To have secret proceedings is a 258 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: mathema who you underlying principles of due process which you know, 259 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: which involves uh, well noticed and adherent. But really there's 260 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: um a commitment to uplistic right in the American maget 261 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: system that is undermined and trampled upon by federal ransus. 262 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: And that there is a similar thing happening here with 263 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: the shadow docket. We know at least what the cases are, 264 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: we know what the opinions are, what the holdings end 265 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: up being. Um. But to have these kinds of cases 266 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: being decided without oral argument. To have these cases being 267 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: decided um without written opinion is troubling. So that's a 268 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: move toward an exercise of power that I need characterI 269 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: is a politation and that I find days concerning UM. 270 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: One of the things that we're seeing, and I think 271 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: it's sort of not unrelated to that, is that they're 272 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: they seem to be dispensing what the docten is very decisive, 273 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: which is precedent, right that the idea that previously decided 274 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: cases are binding, and you know, if you overturn one, 275 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: you really have should be very clear that that's what 276 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: you're doing, and you have to explain why. And we 277 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: see that with the leak road graphs where they they 278 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: have you know, if indeed they issue it sure because 279 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: and this is like an originalism thing, right, Like you 280 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: can throw out precedent if you're saying all that matters 281 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: is this interpretation you're saying that's based on the original 282 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: intent of like some dead dudes. Is that more or 283 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: less an accurate way to say it? Or you can 284 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: overturn president um, you know, over turned president we would 285 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: have that's I think the just outcome or whatever is UM. Yeah, 286 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: but I think there's many reasons that you can overturn 287 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: precedent UM, but they seem to be doing it for subsilentio. Right. 288 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,239 Speaker 1: They're not. They're not always. The leak road rap did 289 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: where a pretty clear and kind of parents about it. 290 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: But I think there are some other things that are 291 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: going on. UM. There was a sixth Amendment case where 292 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: UM they just just start up, didn't mention all of 293 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: the countervailing presidents. Yeah, you know they there's some stuff happening. 294 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: There is UM a case in Texas there was a 295 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: fishermendent case work the courts, the Supreme Court sent it 296 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: back down to UM, either the distance or the Court 297 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: of Appeals, I don't I don't remember UM or even 298 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: the district or the circuit UH, and said, look at 299 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: the side is on death row did absolutely with the 300 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: ineffective assistance of council. Where is the a prejudice? And 301 00:21:54,880 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: the Texas Court just ignored them. Yeah, and that's one 302 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: of those ones that people freaked out about. That was like, yeah, 303 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: I think folks should be very unsettled by this, right. 304 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: And then the court was like, m they didn't. The court, 305 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court just didn't. They just let them get 306 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: away with it. Um. And so there's just sort of 307 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: weird um cushion full happening not only between this court 308 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: interpreting the last court opinions and deciding basically not to 309 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: enforce them, but but there's an interesting power struggle where 310 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: this opinion court seems to be strategically feeding power to 311 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: certain uh, certain lower courts in a way that unusual. Yeah, 312 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, so you know they're not they're not being transparent, 313 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: they are not following precedence, they are not um enforcing 314 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the courts, which it does sound like 315 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: an odd thing I can put need to complain about, um. 316 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: But one of one of the things that we want 317 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: to know is that, you know, one of the ways 318 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: that we can anticipate what the law is or make 319 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: reliable legal arguments is that the law has to be consistent, 320 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, the law and the lower course that's to 321 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: be consistent with what the Supreme Court has said. And 322 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: if we can no longer rely on that, um, it's 323 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: um you know, chaotic, potentially really bad, but really better 324 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: Our clients, apparently, particularly clients who are facing the death penalty, 325 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: which is a particular concerns UM. This court does seem 326 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: pretty intent. I'm knocking over the entire existent amendment UM. 327 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: And then I think yesterday or the day before, they 328 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: issued a really important immigration case on the class actions 329 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: that were brought UM by around behalf of people who 330 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: were detained in immigration detention for like months and months 331 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: and months without hearing, without bond hearing. And essentially what 332 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: the court held was UM that lower courts join'e have 333 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: any authority to UM. Lower coach do so many authorities 334 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: to UM demand that the federal government do or not 335 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: do certain things because they're they're playing as as the 336 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: Immigration Naturalization Act does not give them that authority UM. 337 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: And so it's there. There's a lot. I think the 338 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: big trend here is there's a lot of protecting the 339 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: federal government from any kind of accountability UM accountability that's 340 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: being imposed by lower federal court who are so concerned 341 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: with states rights they have a way of showing it. 342 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say about it, because 343 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: it is one of those things where when we talk about, 344 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: or when I talk about like frustration at people kind 345 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: of sharing information about stuff the court is doing, or 346 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: about changes to how our rights are being interpreted by 347 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: courts that are incorrect. It's not because like there's not 348 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: a problem. It's because it's really important to be aware 349 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: of like the it's really important to like see the 350 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: problem accurately, um, and to see it like it's this 351 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: it's this broad assault. Like like you said, the fact 352 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: that the fact that you have this kind of high 353 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: level attack on the Fifth Amendment is really frightening because 354 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: that's one of like theoretically our primary protections. Yeah, there's 355 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 1: also think it's going to be a mirandic case. Okay, 356 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 1: oh boy, I'm not looking forward to that. A little 357 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: bit anxious about that. Um. Yeah, I don't know. I 358 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: mean I think that the general thing, so you know, 359 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: I think the thing that I would like to highlight 360 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: your paying attention to what writes just the Freme Court 361 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: is trampling on. It's obviously pretty important, but it's pretty 362 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: likely to be kind of more of the same, particularly 363 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: for quality targeted groups of people. I like the law 364 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: is in certain respects fictional, right, like the lies an 365 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: abstract concept. Sure, absolutely, yes, it's material impact. It's not 366 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: like I don't want to get all post modern here. 367 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: It's not like a lot of fictional things have have 368 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: real impacts, Um, exactly, Like, Uh, it has real impact obviously, 369 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: But I think that the impact of the import ruling, 370 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: you know, it's very serious, it's very important. Um, but 371 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: it's also sort of immediately transformed the world. I think 372 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: it just sort of changes what kinds of solutions we 373 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: look to, right, And like, I'm not particularly inclined to 374 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: look to the court to protect me or anyone, um, 375 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: and not particularly I don't trust the law or courts 376 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: enough to really want them to be the arbiters of 377 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: things like free speege or Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, 378 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: obviously I want very ecounful but um, you know, my 379 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: hope is that we can take carib ease whether or 380 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: not to make the course irrelevant, will realize doide type dream? 381 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: But um, I guess this thing, you know, especially with 382 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: roads and I was I was talking to Margaret, a 383 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: mutual friend, about this. The thing that's going to change 384 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: if we're always overturned. Uh, it's really going to be 385 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: what delusions are available to us and how much courage 386 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: will it take to pursue them and what are the 387 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: potential consequencely, right, Yeah, what kind of resources it do 388 00:28:51,000 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: we need? Um. I think in the space of these 389 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decisions, some of which are genuinely terrible, UM, 390 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: and some of which are just reinforcing things that have 391 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: longed been the two. Yeah, you know, our grief and 392 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: our outraged and are bitter popes are not practiced, um, 393 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: they are not necessarily useful, right and and even getting 394 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: super in the leaves of you know, what does this 395 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: opinion actually say. I mean, I think that's an interesting 396 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,959 Speaker 1: but it's and it's good to know and to at 397 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: least have somebody around you know. Um. But instead of 398 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: spending so much time focusing on the real knitpicky language 399 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: was being used by the unelected god pay us of 400 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: the United States. Yes, maybe we start thinking a little 401 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: bit more about what are the material impacts that might 402 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: have and what are ways, what are tools that maybe 403 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: a legal tools or at least that are only legal tools, um, 404 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: that might be useful in um picturing the things that 405 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: we value. And I think that's both an important note 406 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: and a good one to end on. Moira, UM, I 407 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: will run one thing by you real quick. So I 408 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: have a plan and I want to I want your 409 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: advice in the constitutionality of this. I would like to 410 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: acquire Fort Brag. So I'm thinking what I do is 411 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: I go in a Third Amendment case right and say that, well, 412 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if look, you can't what if we just 413 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: extended the Quartering Act right like in the you know, 414 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: could we could we push it even further so that 415 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: nobody can host soldiers? And then I'll those military bases 416 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: are gonna be there's gonna be a fire sale. You 417 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: can't keep soldiers on them, Government's not going to keep 418 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: running them. And then I get to own Ford Bragg. 419 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: How are we doing? Is that? Is that legal? It's 420 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: the whole end people, that you own Fort Bragg, that 421 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: is one of the end goals. I think you should 422 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: probably context that racing, Okay, okay, because yeah, you're right, 423 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: they're probably gonna outbid me anyway, Okay, But constitutionally, I'm 424 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: on solid grounds with the third Right, that's bulletproof. You know. 425 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: Like like many of the questions you asked me, the 426 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: legal questions you ask me, I think the answers nobody knows. 427 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: Nobody knows. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do with the 428 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: n R A did with the second but with the 429 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: Third Amendment, it's going to take a couple of decades, 430 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: but I feel I feel good about this course of action. 431 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for putting up with me. More you had 432 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: some stuff you wanted to plug at the end of 433 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: this episode, here you I would like to use the 434 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: repro Legal Defense Fund of if when how because if 435 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Row at all, the oh boy? Yeah, 436 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: Well the fund fund, which can be found at retro 437 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: Legal Defense Fund dot org. They have a donate stage. 438 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: They're doing amazing work. I'm um, just incredibly impressed it down. 439 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: They are also at recro Legal Defense Funds on Instagram 440 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: and probably also on Twitter. Um, but I don't really 441 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: understand Twitter, so I'm not going to swear to it. 442 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: That's for the best. We'll check that out dot com 443 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: retro legal Funds, So please donate to the Reproductive Legal 444 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: Fund Twitter dot com repro legal Fund. By the time 445 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: this episode drops, we may have the Row thing. So 446 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: I know everybody's gearing up, but you know this is 447 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: definitely uh, it's it's it's good to help out. We 448 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: all need to be like Poland because we're not going 449 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: to yank this back on course through just hoping that 450 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: eventually Supreme Court gets better. Well, we're gonna wish really hard. 451 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: It would be nice, It would be nice, but I 452 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: think organizing is probably a more effective thing to do 453 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: in the immediate term. Um, so yeah, I thank you Moira, 454 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: and um that's the episode It Could Happen Here as 455 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 456 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 457 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 458 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 459 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 460 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.