WEBVTT - The End of the Job as We Know It 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:02.640 Half a century ago, if you had a job, it 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.240 was expected that you were loyal to your company, and 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.960 your company was loyal back to you. There were things 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.480 called pensions for example. Now can we even call what 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:26.560 we have to our employer a relationship? This is game plan. Hi, 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.319 I'm d back to Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavy. And 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.400 this week we're talking about the relationship between workers and 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.000 their employers and how that has become a lot more 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.840 tenuous over time. This was brought to our attention because 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.159 of this really interesting Wall Street Journal article that came 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:43.519 out this week by Lauren Weber. It was called the 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.040 Second Class Office Workers, and she dives into this world 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.360 of contract workers. She says, there are millions of them, 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.920 and there are people who work at companies next to 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.920 full time employees, often doing the same work, but they're 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.400 not full time employees, so they don't get the benefits 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.240 associated it with that. Yeah, and especially I think when 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:04.720 you sign on for years and years as one of 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.600 these contract workers, you can really suffer from not getting 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.440 some of those benefits. Um. There was another article a 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.720 couple of months ago in The Guardian that featured a 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.319 family husband and wife who both work for Facebook in 0:01:18.360 --> 0:01:21.280 the cafeteria. So their contract workers are not technically employed 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.280 by Facebook, but and they're actually paid pretty well hourly. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:27.560 But that puts them in sort of a weird in 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.319 between space where they're not full time employees, so they 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:32.480 don't qualify for the company health insurance, but they make 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.080 a little bit too much money to qualify for any 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.840 state or federal medical benefits. So I think that contract 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:43.800 workers can get sucked into this sort of middle space 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.679 for years and years because a lot of companies have 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:51.080 have used this contractor scheme as a way to basically 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.440 get the equivalent of a full time worker without the benefits. Yeah, 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.560 the Wall Street Journal article goes into a lot of 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.000 the darker sides of having that weird relationship. So of 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.720 course you don't get held insurance benefits, but you also 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.559 can be fired at pretty much any time. And also 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.760 you culturally have a weird relationship to your employers. So 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.600 she talks about how people have different badges, for example, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.799 and that is something that themes really innocuous, but it 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.000 does make people feel like they're second class citizens, are 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.520 lesser than I think those little slits can add up, 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.680 you know. It's like, especially if your co workers are 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:26.640 kind of always reminded that you're not one of them, 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.480 Like if you're all doing the same work, like you said, 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.359 but they all got any email that you didn't because 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.480 you're not on some official list, and so you don't 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.400 get to go to some big company wide meeting. It's 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.720 like those things don't really matter. But they constantly remind 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.560 you that the company isn't investing in you the same 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.480 way it's investing in its other employees. And she points 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.320 out to relationships that these people have with their managers 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:50.680 are often weaker because, like you said, it's it's just 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.960 not the same investment. I'm really glad that the Journal 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.920 dug into this issue of contract workers because it really 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.400 is fascinating, and I think it's kind of not talked 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.919 about enough. But we can back up and look at 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:07.239 this from an even broader angle, and I think there's 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.120 a bunch of different ways that the traditional relationship between 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.800 the employer and the employee is breaking down. Yeah. I 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.760 first think of the gig economy, which is this promise 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.640 from tech companies that we can be free from the 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:25.440 shackles of traditional employment and have flexible schedules and the 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.040 work we want if we work at lift or uber 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:33.480 or companies like fivere or task rabbit, you already have 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.720 a car and an apartment, so why not let it 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.160 work for you exactly. And I remember when these first 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.800 came out, people were buying into that. And this coworker 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:45.200 of mine when I used to work at fast Company, 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.520 wrote this article where she tried to live off of 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:52.720 the gig economy and basically learned that she was making 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:57.440 less than minimum wage and didn't have any marketable skills. Yeah, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.640 she was like, yeah, I'm not a handyman. People. We're 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:04.960 paying me like five dollars an hour to bag jewelry 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.520 and I couldn't get enough gigs to make enough money. 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.200 And I think that is a reality of love of 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.880 a lot of people who are doing this. Yeah, if 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.320 you're doing any kind of freelance work at all, you 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:17.960 you have to do a lot of hustling that's unpaid 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.280 around any job you get. So when you shrink that 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.640 down to like little tiny micro modules of work, you're 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.880 still doing all of that. Like you're going from job 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.000 to job. If you're a task rabbit, you're not getting 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.160 paid for that, and so it just becomes I think 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.000 it could easily eat up your life. Yeah, and then, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.719 just like the contract workers, you don't get benefits, you 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.159 don't really have an employer. There's no stability, you don't 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.880 get any of those comforts that used to come with 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.080 a traditional salary job. You don't get job security, you 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.000 don't get sort of time to figure out your next 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.480 step and do your own thing without having to worry 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:57.480 about constantly making money. And generally the contract between employers 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.599 and employees has just changed. I feel like this sense 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.680 that accompany owes you something and you owe them something 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:09.479 is disappearing. What you're talking about is company loyalty, and 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.680 that's not something that even full time employees have any 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.280 expectation of having with their employers. But how do we 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.640 get to this point? Our guest today is Rick Wartzman. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.520 He's the author of the End of Loyalty, The Rise 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:30.479 and Fall of Good Jobs in America. Right now, in 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.880 many different ways, the contracts between the worker and the 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.559 employer is weaker than ever. We want to know how 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.400 did we get to this point? Well, it's a it's 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.880 a long story, and there are many forces that have, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.680 you know, really put pressure on workers. We know about 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.479 globalization and the rise of competition from low age countries. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:56.480 Automation and technology, certainly over decades has has had an 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:01.800 effect on certain industries and in particular UH and put 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:07.440 downward wage pressure and eroded job security for many workers. 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:11.000 You've had the decline of unions, which has been a 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.080 really important factor as well. Mainly from my reading of history. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.719 Employers really set out to just crush organized labor and 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:21.960 they've they've done quite a good job of that. We've 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.760 gone from you know, twenty five up to thirty five 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.599 per cent or so of the private sector workforce being 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:31.480 unionized to just about six percent today. UM, so that's 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:34.240 had a huge effect. And then the last element, which 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.480 I think has just amplified all of these things is 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.159 UH this shift in corporate culture and I talk a 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.400 lot about this in my book, the shift from a 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.560 real stakeholder mindset, where in this post war period, from 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:51.800 say the late nineteen forties to the early seventies, companies 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.279 explicitly talked about how they were trying to balance the 0:06:55.320 --> 0:07:01.000 interests of all their constituencies, so the communities they operated in, customers, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.000 their shareholders to be sure, but also their workers. And 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.320 that has given way to a predominant culture of trying 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:14.120 to maximize shareholder value. And when you put investors above 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.160 all those other stakeholders, including workers, the pie gets carved 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.960 up differently, and sure enough, investors have gotten a bigger 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:26.160 slice and workers have gotten a lesser slice. Your buck. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.440 Looks at the corporate histories of for American corporate giants 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:35.840 gm GE, Coca Cola, and Kodak. What would you say 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.080 it was like to work at companies like that during 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.760 what you see as sort of the Golden age for workers? Yeah, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.600 so the first thing I should say is this golden 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.440 age came with a big asterisk. So this post war 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:50.720 period again, you know, from mid to late forties up 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:55.200 to the early nineties seventies was golden mainly for white men. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:08:00.000 People of color and women were really blatantly discriminated again 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.240 in the workplace and hadn't entered the workforce in uh 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.480 the numbers that they certainly began to in the sixties 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.640 and seventies and has accelerated through today. And of course 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.920 many still faced tremendous blatant discrimination in lots of ways. 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.240 But this again, this was really a golden age for 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.960 white men. Um that said, there was a huge swath 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:26.239 of of the workforce that was lifted up and saw 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:31.200 steadily rising pay and benefits, and good job security and 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.240 good benefits, I should say on both kind of the 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:37.960 healthcare front, where company provided health coverage just got steadily 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.800 stronger in terms of what it would cover and who 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:42.800 it would cover, in terms of bringing in your family 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.920 members if you're an employee, uh, and very solid retirement security. 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.120 I mean there were full pensions back in those days, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.079 not not just four O one K type plans um 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.040 and that was true across these four companies. And then 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.200 over the last forty years the story has really been 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.520 the same. You've seen a rooting job security. You've seen 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:07.800 an erosion in benefits. You have seen pay that has 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:13.120 been stagnant for many workers. Even companies like ge Um 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.000 have gone, you know, at least we're going for a 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.480 while to a two tier wage system and their factories 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.920 so that they could pay new workers less. And so 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.440 you've seen the decline in the corporate social contract. And 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.360 of course you have four very different companies too, in 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.800 General Electric and Coca Cola that over this entire seventy 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:34.839 five year arc have done quite well. And then you've 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.319 had to that of course, have really struggled. Right. You 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.640 had General Motors that went into bankruptcy and it's you know, 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.040 a shadow of what it was at its height. And 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.040 Kodak that also went bankrupt and is you know, a 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.319 much much tinier, very different company than it was and 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.920 it's hey day. But it doesn't matter if you worked 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.880 for one of the successful ones in Coca Cola and 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.880 GE or one of the real laggards in GM or Coda. 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.200 As a worker, the story was pretty much the same. Um. 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.520 The social contract rose and then it unraveled. You mentioned 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.280 organized labor. Was that the only motivation for companies to 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:15.240 treat employees this way? No, not at all, um. So 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.920 coming out of World War Two, I think there were 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.160 uh several forces at work, um that set off this 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.240 golden age. So one was these big US companies at 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.720 that time they could just frankly afford to be extremely generous. 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.480 We had as a nation bombed our global competition to 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:37.839 its knees, and many look at it, and I think 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.520 there's a lot of truth to this. This was an 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:44.839 extraordinary time and exceptional time. Because these were exceptional circumstances, 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.640 These big US companies produced an inordinate amount of the 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.320 world's goods um again there was very little competition, So 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.440 that was one thing. And then on the home front, 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:56.719 by the way, you also had all these returning UH 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.480 servicemen and coming back from the war and set off 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.960 the baby boom and the emergence of really the great 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.079 American middle class, this giant rise of the middle class. 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.640 Another was there was some fear at this time. There 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.439 was concern about all these returning service men and some 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.120 some service women, but mostly men coming home, tens of 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.600 millions of them who had who had been off to 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.480 war now they were coming back. And a lot of 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:27.079 corporate leaders expressed the concern that unless we provide good jobs, 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.440 with good benefits and good security, we may end up 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.719 with another great depression on our hands, perhaps one that 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.160 would be even worse than what unfolded in the nineteen thirties. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.280 And in turn, the fear was that if that happened, 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.360 there might be long breadlines again, and capitalism might actually 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.080 give way to socialism or you know, God forbid communism 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.240 on American soil. And so there was some feeling that 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.400 we've got to provide and provide well for people, or 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.920 the capitalist system itself might be at risk. So fear 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.440 was an impulse. There was also an impulse of just 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.280 keeping the economy humming. There was a common kind of 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.000 almost Kinzian notion back then that you've got to put 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.200 enough pay in people's pockets so that they can keep 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.280 this great consumer economy going. UM. There's a great quote 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.440 early in my book from Charlie Wilson, the president of 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.280 General Electric, who said something like, how are they going 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.760 to buy my refrigerators if we don't give them enough 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.080 wages to do it with? And this is a very 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:28.480 common kind of thinking that that you know, prevailed in 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.719 in corporate culture then. UM, and some interestingly today have 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.719 raised this concern. Right. Larry Summers, the former Treasury secretary, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.240 has sort of raised the question have wages stagnated for 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.720 so long to the point that it may be cutting 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.160 into consumer spending and the overall growth of the economy. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.760 And he's talked about this secular stagnation UM from essentially 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.320 just not paying people enough not compensating them moment And 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.040 then finally I'd say that the other again big factor 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.680 is there was just a different mindset I think coming 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.280 out of the depression and World War two, UM, corporate 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.480 leaders really thought in we terms you know, we're kind 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.880 of all in this together. That was the kind of 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.000 national culture, and I think it was reflected and reinforced 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.199 by corporate culture. And I think as America shifted more 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:17.440 to an eye from a wee kind of ethic. UM 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.960 that's also been reflected in UH in corporate culture. And 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.640 again we've gone from the stakeholder mindset to a maximize 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.920 shareholder value mindset. And when did that corporate mindset start 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.559 to change and why so? It it really started? I mean, 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.800 some people trace it to UH an article that Milton Friedman, 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:42.000 the University of Chicago economists wrote famous piece in the 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.520 New York Times Sunday magazine in nineteen seventy believe it 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.320 was the Fall of nineteen seventy, and in it he 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.400 said that business really has one social responsibility and that 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.200 was that was the words he used, and he said 0:13:55.360 --> 0:14:00.600 that this social responsibility was for manager is to act 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.839 as the agents of the shareholders. Um, that was their 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.920 only job. And shareholders wanted one thing. They wanted profits 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.240 to go up and in turn stock price to go up. 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.240 And that was pretty much what executives and managers were 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.760 there to do. And for them to do anything else, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.760 including trying to foster employment was in Freedman's words, I 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:21.640 believe I have this correct. He said that was just 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:27.960 practicing pure and unadulterated socialism. And so this this idea 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:33.120 um called agency theory um, which maybe began with Freedmen, 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:34.960 but there were certainly other thinkers. I mean, this was 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.400 a period when people began to hold up the market 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:40.560 place as something sack or sank and if we just 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.960 let the market do its job, it would take care 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.440 of a lot of our our problems. Um. There was 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.480 a whole school of thought that rose up around this 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:51.840 in business schools and law schools, among economists, and and 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.080 before long this sort of went from the ivory tower 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:58.080 and began to permeate the realm of practice. And then 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.640 the last piece was EO pay began to be explicitly 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:07.560 linked to UM how stock price did so. CEOs are 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.640 always compensated uh with stock and stock options. Even if 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.160 you go back to the nineties, fifties or sixties, you 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.600 see that as part of their compensation packages. But it 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.200 was a pretty tiny part, you know, small fraction. Now 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.960 depending on how you measure it, it's somewhere between fifty 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.560 and eighty percent. For a typical big company CEO his 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.360 and it's mostly his uh, you know, or her pay 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.760 is now tied to stock. And so when you do that, 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.040 it becomes in their interests, you know, it's their own 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.000 personal interests to try and drive up share price in 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.880 the short term. And uh, when you do that, you 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:44.880 know what's what's the quickest way to do that? Well, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:50.160 you you cut costs, and suddenly employees look like costs, 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.680 an avoidable expense, not really like something you want to 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:58.320 invest much. I'm wondering if it was really better for 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.960 a lot of workers back then. And I know you 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.360 mentioned some of the things like how maybe people like 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:08.280 me and Francesca wouldn't be included in this idyllic version 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.280 of the workplace, But was it. Are we looking at 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:14.160 those with rose colored glasses a little to some degree? Yeah, 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.359 we we definitely are. And I think this is particularly 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:20.360 true as President Trump has romanticized a lot of these 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.200 old manufacturing jobs and cold jobs and so on. First 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.400 of all, they were they were brutal, I mean they 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:31.600 were they were often you know, just backbreaking and dangerous. Uh. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:36.240 And um, you know, there's a lot of recorded evidence 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.440 in oral histories. You know that I've I've read and 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.120 a lot references in my book worker voices that talked 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.040 about how tough these jobs were. But again, they put 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.640 you at least on on a solid economic footing. You 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.240 had good pay, you had good medical benefits, you had 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:55.120 good retirement security. Um, your your kids could do well. 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.040 They could you know, you could afford to send your 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.680 kids to college. They were often the first generation that went, 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.280 so there, you know, there were some real advantages that way. 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.920 They were probably not as good jobs in some other ways. 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.080 Even if you had more of a technical job, say 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:11.679 at a general electric in the old days, it was 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.840 much more of a kind of i think paternalistic, bureaucratic, 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.280 top down kind of system, it probably wouldn't have been 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.560 as enjoyable, you know, again depending on I'm sure it 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.280 varry's department to department and manager to manager. But right 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.720 we've we've moved to a corporate culture on the high 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.879 end where there's a lot more collaboration, where there's a 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.280 lot more team orientation, you know, where there is some flexibility, 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.280 where where good companies like ge try and coax ideas 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.200 from the bottom up. Um and and it's a bit 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.520 more of a meritocracy than it probably was in the 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.480 in that so called golden age. So some things are 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.200 better about it now, I think, by and large across 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.360 the board. Um, But again I think those things are 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.160 largely reserved for people who have the skills and knowledge 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.639 to take advance image of that part of the employment system. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.080 It's clear we're never going back to this golden age 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.040 that you described, Like even high skilled workers who have 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.320 the best benefits right now don't have pensions, for example. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.879 But are there things being done to make things better? Uh? 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.160 You know, look, the things that I think may make 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:25.040 things better, particularly on the knowledge worker end, younger millennial 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.840 employees and all the evidence shows want to work for 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:33.159 companies and are putting pressure on their employer to have 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.879 the right values and to work at a place that 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.160 is trying to make the world better. And even though again, 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.560 if you if you're coming out of college and you're 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.800 you know, you land one of these knowledge jobs talent, 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.960 and you're you're being recruited, you know, you're probably gonna 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:53.200 do okay yourself. But I think there's also increasing demand 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:55.480 to say, we want to work at a company that 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:57.720 treats all of our workers, down to those on the 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.160 front lines are colleagues on the front lines that may 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.639 not be may be in more of a low skilled 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.840 kind of job. We want them treated right too. Um. 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.600 And so I think there's pressure coming from you know, 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.880 the employee side. I think there are pressures coming from 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.480 the consumer side. Um where uh, you know, there's more 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.280 and more access to information, a lot of it digitally 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.560 now where you can you can go on glass Door, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:25.920 pay Scale or um. This online bank Aspiration has this 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.439 app that you can use where you can look at 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.520 the places you're shopping. You know, they know through your 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.600 debit card purchases and online bill paying where you shop, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.479 and they'll rate the merchants where you're going. They'll give 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.320 them a People's score and a Planet score. Right. How 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.640 how where I'm shopping do they are they in line 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.600 with my values? And you know they sort of benchmarket 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.160 against other merchants that sell the same stuff. Maybe maybe 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.680 they'll be. I think there's pressure that is coming from 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.400 consumers and more pressure that way. Um. You know, we've 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.439 seen what happens that you know and an uber for example, right, 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.440 they didn't add a tipping option I thing for their 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:02.600 drivers out of you know, because out of the goodness 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.880 of their hearts. You know, they did so because there 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.359 was pressure from right from workers wanting there from sorry, 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:13.399 from consumers wanting their workers treated better. So, UM, I 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.080 think that's another avenue where where maybe we're gonna start 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.399 to see some some pressure and things moving in the 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.479 other direction. And then, of course, investors, a lot of 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.600 the kind of socially responsible impact investing has been more 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.720 on the environmental side of things. UM, but I think 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.080 that there is a movement to to try and look 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.679 at e s g. Environmental social and governance metrics that 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.880 also cover the people's side, and that um, social people 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:45.000 are interested in impact investing and socially responsible investing. UM. 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.080 You know, that's a real place the capital markets can 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:50.040 can leverage pressure against companies to do the right thing 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.199 and treat their people right in terms of compensation, in 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.280 terms of investing in their training, making sure that they're 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.680 following labor standards and and so on. So I think 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.200 those are all pressure points that I think companies are 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.440 beginning to feel how quickly and how forcefully they can 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:13.560 add up and overcome this maximize shareholder value mindset. You know, 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.119 I don't know if it will be strong enough to 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.520 roll things you know back or how far. Yeah, it 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.440 sounds like the only way companies do anything is if 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.000 they feel like they have to thank you so much 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.000 for taking the time and coming to talk to us. 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.199 Oh it's a pleasure, Thanks so much for having me. 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.119 So there's a perfect example of the shareholder value principle 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.359 that Rick was talking about that I read about. A 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:42.000 couple of months ago. American Airlines announced that I was 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.120 giving pay raises to its pilots and its flight attendants, 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.280 and basically Wall Street freaked out and the stock went down. Wow. 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.600 So the specific thing that Wall Street was upset about 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.480 was that basically American was giving like a little leg 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.600 up to its workers. And it's funny because Rick was 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.879 saying that, you know, maybe one hope we have for 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:05.439 things turning around is consumers putting pressure on companies. And 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.640 I guess in this case, like for consumers, you want 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.600 happy flight attendants and pilots, and everybody's always complaining about 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:17.800 how terrible the flying experiences. So maybe what it would 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.720 take to convince American Airlines shareholders that it's good to 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.919 give pay raises is if consumers hated the experience so 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.439 much that they demanded it and then that sent the 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:30.879 company's stock price down. But it seems very round about. 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.160 It's honestly hard to think about how we could get 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.680 back to anything that Rick is talking about for lots 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:40.720