1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controled decades. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: want you to know. Democracy is uh, I think most 10 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: people can agree a fragile concept. For most of us 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: listening in the audience today, the events of January six 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. Showed just how fragile this system 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: can be. And across the world you can sadly find 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: numerous examples of coups and dictators and so on. And democracy, 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: in a way is like a living organism. It must 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: be nurtured, it must be protected. In today's episode, we're 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: exploring another story of democracy in peril and often overlooked example. 18 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: It's the story of an alleged conspiracy. It's a story 19 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: of big business. It's the story, perhaps UH, most singularly 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: about a man named Smedley Butler, a complex guy who 21 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: in his time was called everything from a war hero 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: to an activist, and a trader and a crack pot. 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: This is the story of the business plot, and we 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: are not exploring it alone. We're immensely fortunate to be 25 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: joined today with Jonathan Katz, a multi award winning journalist 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: and most recently the author of Gangsters of Capitalism, Smedley Butler, 27 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: The Marines, and the Making and Breaking of America's Empire. Jonathan, 28 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show today. Hey, good, 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: good to be here. I gotta tell you, Jonathan, we 30 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: we talked about this story that just Smedley Butler in 31 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and ten in a video we made for YouTube, 32 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: and you know, we delved into it. I recall Ben, 33 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: you and I just being kind of I mean, I 34 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: was personally flabbergasted to know that this was something that 35 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: had occurred. I didn't think something like this was possible. 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if guys, should we start with Smedley Butler 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: the person, or should we start with the business plot 38 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: in general. Let's maybe go into it this way. Um, Jonathan, 39 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: you and I have talked in the past for some 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: other projects. As you were as you were working on 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: this book, which is, for my money, the most comprehensive 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: work on Smedley Butler. Uh. You came to this as 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:50,399 Speaker 1: a seasoned investigative journalists, and I think in a way, um, 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: this story starts for you in Haiti right when you 45 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: were You were on the ground in Haiti during the 46 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: deadliest earthquake ever recorded in the Western Hemisphere to this point. 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: So could you tell us about how that connected you 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: to Spedy Butler. Yeah. So you know, the people who 49 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 1: know about Smelly Butler usually know about him through one 50 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: of two roots. Either either they were Marines and learned 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: about him in boot camp um, or they know about 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: him because of either the business plot or his sort 53 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: of anti war, anti imperialless activism in the nineteen thirties, 54 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: especially his his book War as a Racket. UM. I 55 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: am part of a minority of a minority of people 56 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: who know about him, principally because of his work overseas, 57 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: especially as you note in Haiti. So I was the 58 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: Associated Press correspondent uh in Haiti from two thousand seven 59 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: until eleven, which means that I was there on almost 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: exactly actually twelve years ago on on January twelve, when 61 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: when I was very fortunate to survive the seven point 62 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: or earthquake that that killed you know, a hundred thousands, 63 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: three sixteen thousand people. And it was when so I 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: had encountered Smedley's name before that UM in the context 65 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: of an event that most Americans don't know about, but 66 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: Haitians very much do, which was the U s occupation 67 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: of Haiti Um that lasted for nineteen years from the 68 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen nineteen thirty four. It was the longest continuous 69 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: US occupation, uh military occupation until that record was broken 70 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan just before we withdrew and after the earthquake, 71 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: I you know, I sat down to write my first 72 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: book UM about the earthquake, and I was looking for 73 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: information about you know, I was trying to basically set 74 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: the scene of like how did Haiti become so fragile? 75 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: How did how did this country become so poor? And 76 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: and how did things get to a place where, you know, 77 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: a relatively moderate earthquake. It was big, I can tell you, 78 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: but it was a relatively moderate earthquake as earthquakes go. 79 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: Killed more people than any other earthquake ever recorded in 80 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: North or South America and that brought me back to 81 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: the Haitian A, the U S occupation of Haiti, which 82 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: brought me to Smedley Butler. And so I was looking 83 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: for information on Butler, um, you know, to sort of 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: liven up this in case I was going to use 85 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: any of his information in the book, because he's a 86 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: fascinating like I could just tell that he was like 87 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: a colorful guy. He's a Quaker from you know, Philadelphia. 88 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: So the so the first thing that stuck out to 89 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: me was some of his letters have been collected in 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: an edited volume, um, and he uses his Quaker these 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: and thy so he's like, you know, he's like writing 92 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: his parents and he's like, you know, like the affectionate 93 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: son is in Haiti doing horrible things. And so then 94 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so who you know what this 95 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: guy looked like, like it's you know, just plug him 96 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: into Google, see like if there's more information out there, 97 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: and what comes up is the business plot and wore 98 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: as a racket. And my first instinct was like, well, 99 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: this can't be the same guy because in Haiti Butler 100 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 1: was known as the devil. Literally they called him that, 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: like he was you know, considered you know, one of 102 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: the worst of the worst of the Marines who were 103 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: the aggressors and in that occupation, at least as far 104 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: as the Haitians were concerned. And then, you know, to 105 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: have that guy turn around and become a anti war 106 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: activist as somebody who like you know, foils a fascist plot. 107 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: That didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, 108 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: but of course it was the same guy, and that's 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: that set me off on the path to try to 110 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: figure out, you know who who is Smedley Butler. My 111 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: understanding of the part of the Marines UH deployment, the 112 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: use when they were in Haiti was to protect property 113 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: and interest like American interests. Could you just talk a 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: little bit about that. Yeah, So, without getting too into 115 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: the weeds here, but the UH, the the occupation started 116 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: with an invasion in nineteen fifteen. It actually started first 117 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: in December of nights fourteen with a bank heist the Marines. 118 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: Butler was not one of these Marines, although he would 119 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: have been if he had been ordered there. Um UH 120 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: sub marines came ashore and literally robbed the central Bank 121 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: of Haiti. They took half the gold and brought it 122 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: to New York to to a vault on Wall Street, 123 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: whereas far as we could tell it never it never left, 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: certainly never went back to Haiti. Um. The reason for 125 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: that was um and reason I'm kind of putting reason 126 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: in air quotes here, but the reason for that was 127 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: that Haiti, so Haiti, traces its origins to the only 128 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: successful slave revolution uh in modern history. The enslaved people 129 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: of the French colony of Sanda mang rose up overthrew 130 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: slavery and their French imperial masters, and as a reward 131 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: for this, about twenty years later, the French then imposed 132 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: a crippling indemnity on Haiti, where they basically said, Okay, 133 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: we won't invade you again, and we won't and we'll 134 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: give you diplomatic recognition if you pay us an enormous fine, 135 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: which it took the rest of the nineteenth century for 136 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: for Haiti to do. And the Haitians did that. But 137 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: in order to do that, in part, they had to 138 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: take out loans from banks elsewhere, and one some of 139 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: those banks within the United States, and the biggest of 140 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: those banks in the United States was the National City 141 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: Bank of New York nowadays known just as City Bank 142 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: and City Bank was worried that they weren't going to 143 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: get uh, you know, the full payment of their debt, 144 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 1: and so they went to the Wilson administration, which Wilson 145 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: was president at the time, and said, let's rob the bank. 146 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: That made things even worse in Haiti. A president was assassinated, 147 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: the last time a president of Haiti was assassinated until 148 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: last summer in and then that was used as the 149 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: pretext for a full invasion. So it was an invasion 150 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: basically requested by City Bank, Inc. And done for you know, 151 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: for the purposes of of making sure that their ledgers 152 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: were right. Um. And then other American capitalists, other you know, exporters, investors, uh, 153 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: you know, real estate people like all the you know, 154 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: all these other Americans came down to to take advantage 155 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: of that. And Smedley Butler was he was ultimately the 156 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: point man on the ground. He what makes him a 157 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: fascinating character and and and and one of the reasons 158 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: why you know, I just spent the last well seven 159 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: years really writing a book about him, um, is because 160 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: he was everywhere, uh he was. He was in every 161 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, US invasion and occupation basically from uh the 162 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: war in Cuba, against Spain in eight until you know, 163 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, the eve of the Second World War. Um, 164 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: but Haiti. For one of the things that I had 165 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: in common with Smedley Butler, um is that both of 166 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: us spent um you know a significant amount of time 167 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: and and you know to a certain extent, uh, you 168 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: know the height of at least you know a part 169 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: of our careers, for better or for worse, in both 170 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: of our cases in an amazing country. But but in Haiti. 171 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: And the reason I think this is a great entry 172 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: point is because this is your Like you said, you're 173 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: in a minority of minorities by the way you connected 174 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: with the story of Spentley Butler. But this story is 175 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: also still so extraordinarily obscure to the average member of 176 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: the American public. They, like you said, Marines may learn 177 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: of Butler in boot camp, where he is considered he's 178 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: considered a war hero because he was deployed on a 179 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: global scale. But we when we're talking about this story, 180 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: this little interest our audience today. So we started with 181 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: a bank heist. City bank conspired with Uncle Sam to 182 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: rob a bank in Haiti. That's not the conspiracy, That's 183 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: not what this episode is about that conspiracy. Yes, that's 184 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: a side spiracy. Yes. Uh. The conspiracy that we're talking 185 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: about that we're going to explore in depth today is 186 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: something that today is known as the business plot. And 187 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: I love that you've already pointed out Butler, over the 188 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: course of his life had this transformation from a die 189 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: hard marine, a true believer, as maybe stan Lee would 190 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: have put it, and he became a very a very prominent, 191 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: very outspoken, barn storming activist. Could you, and I know 192 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: this is tough because you just you wrote an entire 193 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: book on this, but could you, in a in a 194 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: like a brief kind of headline snippet, could you tell 195 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: everyone what the business plot was, at least from Smedley's perspective. 196 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: So essentially, the headline of the business plot is that bank, 197 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: specifically Well Brokers, specifically one one uh prominent Wall Street 198 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: stock brokerage, approached Butler with a plan in which Butler 199 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: would lead a army of about half a million World 200 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: War One veterans into Washington. They would basically go up 201 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Avenue, you know, maybe surround the White House and 202 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: intimidate Franklin Delano Roosevelt into either resigning or handing the 203 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: bulk of his power over to a cabinet secretary who 204 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: the plotters would name. And the really eerie rings of 205 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: the present very much, very much the insurgency, yes, exactly, exactly, Um, 206 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: just the other way up, the other way down Pennsylvania Avenue. Basically, Um, 207 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: the numbers go up instead. Uh and um. The reason 208 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: that they were doing that was because they were rich 209 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: and they hated the New Deal. So it's a great depression. 210 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: Millions of Americans are suffering, and Franklin Roosevelt has promise 211 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: and is starting to implement programs to use the wealth 212 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: of the federal government, the power of the federal government 213 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: to help Americans in lots of different ways by you know, 214 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: uh ultimately uh, you know, giving them social security, you 215 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: know old age insurance, uh, you know, helping with infrastructure 216 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: of the Tennessee Valley authorities, so like the electrification of 217 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,599 Speaker 1: the rural south, you know, deposit insurance jobs through the 218 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: Civilian Conservation Corps. Um. Not all those things were in 219 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: place at this moment, but but this is what he 220 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: was rolling out. So commies, COMMI commy stuff, basically exactly, 221 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: and from from the perspective of you know, the people 222 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: who Butler alleged were and really what Butler's contact with this, 223 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: with this stock brokerage alleged we're behind this plot. Um. 224 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: They considered it one of the DuPont brothers of DuPont Um, 225 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: who was you know, sort of the most powerful, uh 226 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: and and richest person associated allegedly with this plot. Um. 227 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: He did say, uh, and and you know this is 228 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: this is recorded, um that the New Deal was, you know, 229 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: essentially the socialist doctrine by by another name. I mean. 230 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: The thing is that in nineteen ninety four, when when 231 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: Butler blows the whistle on this in front of a 232 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: House committee in Congress. Um, you know, a lot of 233 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: people thought that liberal democracy was over. The Great Depression 234 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: was a tremendous shock to the capitalist worldview. Um. It was. 235 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: It was a total failure of capitalism, and it looked 236 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: to a lot of people, like you know, having people 237 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: sort of you know, have the American style constitutional government 238 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: elect their leaders elected president like Franklin Roosevelt, that that 239 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: that was maybe on its last gasp, and that the 240 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: only ways forward would be either fascism or communism in 241 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: the sense that Stalin was was was was implementing communism 242 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: in the Soviet Union at that time. Why did these 243 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: plotters think that he would be down for this given 244 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: his track record as like a patriot, right, you know, 245 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: whoever we know was behind it, and I can I 246 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: can talk about the people that we know and the 247 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: people who we can theorize. They very badly miscalculated obviously 248 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: in in in getting Butler. Um, but it was you 249 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: could see what they were thinking. So as as we 250 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: noted at the top here, Butler had a long track 251 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: record of participating in coups and overthrowing democratic governments all 252 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: over the world. Um, he had he had helped overthrow 253 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: government in Nicaraguay, he had helped overthrow governments in Honduras. 254 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: Um he had helped, you know, prevent a democratic government 255 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: from from coming to power in the Philippines when he 256 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: was you know, participating in the colonization of the Philippines. 257 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: In Haiti, where he also helped overthrow uh the president 258 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: through the invasion of nineteen fifteen. In nineteen seventeen, he 259 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: actually led a kind of a business plot January six 260 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: like thing in Haiti in Haiti's National Assembly, in the parliament, 261 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: essentially Haiti's constitution going back to you know, their their 262 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: their days of self liberation, prohibited foreigners from owning land 263 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: in Haiti without getting, you know, some kind of special 264 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: permission or generally, you know, by by marrying into a 265 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 1: Haitian family. And that wasn't gonna work for the Americans 266 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: who wanted to just you know, buy a bunch of 267 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: stuff in Haiti and make a bunch of money. So 268 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: the Wilson administration, the State's Department, decided to write a 269 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: new constitution. So there was a new problem. There was 270 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: a puppet president in Haiti at that point, but the 271 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: Haitian Parliament was still essentially independent, and so Butler led 272 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: an armed column of marines and members of the gendarmerie deity, 273 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: which was the Haitian client army, basically a preview of 274 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: you know, the the Afghan National Army, or like our 275 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: client militaries in Iraq and other places which people might 276 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: be more familiar with today. And he said, you're done, 277 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: and they shut down. The parliament went through the archives, 278 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: destroyed all the records of the parliament's last votes in 279 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: which they were planning to reject the American written constitution, 280 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: and the parliament didn't meet again for twelve years and 281 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: that was done, you know, on behalf of banks. So 282 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: it was not a ridiculous thought for a banker to 283 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: be like this guy is good at doing these things. 284 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: The other thing that I'll that I'll note is and 285 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: this is like another another piece of American history, really 286 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: important American history that most Americans don't know about. And 287 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: I don't want to go like two into the weeds 288 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: with this either, but well we go on the weeds. 289 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't as as you can probably tell, like I'm 290 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: like going like I live in the weeds. Is basically 291 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: I'm reporting live from the weeds. So in nineteen thirty two, 292 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: so two years before he basically gets approached to do 293 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: this business plot um and and blows the whistle um, 294 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: there's an event called the Bonus march um. So essentially 295 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: World War One veterans have been promised back pay for 296 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: their time in World in the First World War at 297 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: that at that point, the only World war, you know, 298 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: since that war ended. Uh, They've been told that they 299 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: wouldn't be paid until either the service member died or 300 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: ninety five, whichever came first. But it's two, the depression 301 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: is at its bottom, and they need this money now. 302 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: So tens of thousands of veterans and their families converge 303 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: on Washington to stage a month long kind of protest occupation. 304 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: It's basically, you know, occupy Washington, UM, to demand that 305 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: Congress and President Herbert Hoover act on paying them the 306 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: money that they need. And most of the establishment derided 307 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: them as communists and degenerates and like and and you know, 308 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: one of the organizers definitely had fascist sympathies, and Butler 309 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: sided with the veterans because he was a veteran himself, UM, 310 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: and he had been in World War One at the rear, 311 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: but as a general at a you know, overseeing a 312 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: disembarkation and reimbarkation camp. And he gave this stirring uh 313 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: speech to them, encouraging them to stay. Side note to 314 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: the side note. Nine days after his speech, Herbert Hoover 315 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: sends the army, led by Douglas MacArthur with his adjutants 316 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: Major Dwight Eisenhower and Major George Patton, to attack the 317 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: veterans burn their encampment. They launched tear gas chemical weapons, 318 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: a baby dies um and UH. It's it's known as 319 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: it is known as the Battle of Washington. So if 320 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: you were paying close attention and maybe with the to 321 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: a certain extent, with the benefit of hindsight, although you know, 322 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: let it be said, fascist dangerous as they are, have 323 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: never been known for their perceptiveness her intelligence generally. Um, 324 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: there were these newsreels that showed Butler addressing you know, 325 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of veterans in the shadow of the capital, 326 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: and they're sitting there hanging on his every word. And 327 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: if you if it's you know, it's now four and 328 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: you're thinking, who do we pick to lead this you 329 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: know mob that that's gonna tim date the president. I mean, 330 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: a guy who's done a bunch of coups, a guy 331 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 1: who and a guy who who they love, who has 332 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: who has been seen on camera rallying them. It just 333 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: so happens that they missed the part where his politics 334 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: had taken a a major left turn. I think it's 335 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: fair to say, and that he was close personal friends 336 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: with Franklin Roosevelt, going back to their shared days in Haiti, 337 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: which I've now gone on about way too much. So 338 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is person signing off from 339 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: the weeds. Jonathan. This is perfect because you're assembling a 340 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: lot of pieces for this story. They did miscalculate severely. Uh. 341 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: And you could make a strong argument that the United 342 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,959 Speaker 1: States today is immensely fortunate that they screwed up. Uh. 343 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: One thing that I think is interesting by way of 344 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: comparison for people first hearing about this in is that 345 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: when you think of Butler from the respective of his 346 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: contemporaries and from this time in his life, think of 347 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: Captain America. Think of like an older retired Captain America 348 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: who still has a lot of them and vigor and 349 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: fight in him. They still a hero. Yeah, Yeah, he's considered. 350 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: He is considered, of course um an infernal force to 351 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: the people of Haiti, but to the people back home 352 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: he is a war hero. And this is something that 353 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: they sought no pun intended. The banking force has sought 354 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: to capitalize upon. That's two levels of no pun intended. 355 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: But here we are so one One thing that really 356 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: stands out to me in these conversations when we've been 357 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: talking in something you address in Gangsters of Capitalism is 358 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: the weird opinion of fascism. Right nowadays, most people in 359 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: the US can't agree, whatever their political ideology, that Fascism, 360 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: however nebulously defined, is a bad thing. That is no 361 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: longer a hot take, right. But but this wasn't always 362 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: the case, and you know, you can see this in 363 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: the statements and beliefs of business tycoons of Butler's day. 364 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: Could could you tell us a little bit more about 365 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: what they saw fascism as and why they preferred it 366 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: to you know, what they saw as the dangerous, vast 367 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: red shadow of communism or socialism. Yeah, I mean, you know, 368 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: Mussolini in particular was really really popular, um in you know, 369 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen twenties and and the early nineteen thirties 370 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: at least, and certainly up to this point that we're 371 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: talking about four. Um, not with everybody, but you know, 372 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: much more popular than I think that than than people 373 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: maybe two fully appreciate. He was seen by a lot 374 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: of people as sort of this you know, strong modernizer. 375 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: You know, Mussolinian in particular had come out of he 376 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: had come out of the socialist movement in Italy, but 377 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: rejected it ultimately and essentially came up with fascism as 378 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: a way of sort of doing a socialist style reorganization 379 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: of society, by which I mean breaking away from the 380 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: liberal order, um and and breaking away from sort of 381 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, nineteenth century style capitalism. But he did it 382 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: by rejecting class analysis or by using a class I guess, 383 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: by using a class analysis that basically said that like 384 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: rich people could keep their money and and rich people 385 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: really like that, like that that that was that was 386 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: a really exciting thing for them because again, like you know, socialism, 387 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 1: it was a very attractive idea to a lot of 388 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: people still is because it promises a our way of 389 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: life for for more people. Um And, So Mussolini is 390 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: basically saying, like, we'll do that, but instead of you know, 391 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: using sort of class analysis and class politics and labor 392 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: unions to to you know, improve people's lives, will just 393 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: like have rich people stay rich and then break the 394 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: heads of you know, anybody who like, we feel like 395 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't actually make any sense, Like it's like it's 396 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: a completely incoherent like way of thinking about the world. 397 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: But if you are saying, you know, Thomas Lamott, who 398 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,959 Speaker 1: was the head of JP Morgan and Company at this moment, 399 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: he called himself, you know, something of a missionary for Mussolini. 400 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: He was like he was friends with him the Johnson 401 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: Read Act. So the Johnson Read extremely racist Immigration Act 402 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: that that kind of shut off immigration you know, from 403 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: from Europe, and uh, you know, this lasted for for decades, 404 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: basically until until the nineties sixties. One of the sponsors 405 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: of that read you know, said, you know, on the 406 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: Senate floor that like, you know, he thought that, you know, 407 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: the United States could use a Mussolini. You know, the 408 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: the American Legion they invited Mussolini to speak. They you know, 409 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: they would open their conventions with like, you know, greetings 410 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: from a fellow, uh, you know, honorable you know World 411 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: War veteran sw York. There's a song from h the 412 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: musical Anything Goes, you know, You're the Top, and one 413 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: of the versions of that, you know, so it's like 414 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: you're the top, You're the Mona Lisa, like you're like 415 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: all the best things that are like in the twenties, 416 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: and one of the lines was like you're Mussolini, right, 417 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: people like it was dumb, like like it was really stupid, 418 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: and it became and it became very clear, i think 419 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: shortly after this. So one of the things that Mussolini 420 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: did that that that discredited him quickly was invading Ethiopia. 421 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: It was a horrendous invasion. They used mustard gas and 422 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: fighter planes, and it's sort of a previ of of 423 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: the Second World War, UM, and then obviously everything that 424 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: happened after that, the Spanish Civil War, World War two. Like, 425 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, fascism is pretty much discredited at this point, 426 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: but it appeals to a certain kind of mind, people 427 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: who are just sort of like, the best thing to 428 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: do is to crack the skulls of my enemies. The 429 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: best thing to do is to have like, you know, 430 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: one strong leader who you know, who speaks with authority 431 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: and tells me what to believe. Um. You know, that's 432 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: that's appealing to to some people. And again in you know, 433 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: if you were a very wealthy businessman, um, and you 434 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: see your you know, your fellow rich guy, Franklin Delano 435 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: Roosevelt come into office and say, you know, you know, 436 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: he takes the dollar off the gold standard, He you know, 437 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: declares an immediate bank holiday. He's he's, you know, trying 438 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: to to regulate the banks. He's trying to sort of 439 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: regulate the excesses of capitalism that led to the crash 440 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: that that you know creates, uh, the Great Depression, you know, 441 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: you're like, oh god, this sounds so much like socialism, 442 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: because to some extent it was. I mean, he was 443 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: taking some of the good ideas of socialism had and 444 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: using them really to save capitalism. But um, you know 445 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: you could. I'm not I'm not saying I agree with them, 446 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: but I'm just sort of trying to put put put 447 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: you and and and you know, the people listening in 448 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: the mindset of like what would make somebody think this? 449 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: And to a certain extent, we're seeing this again today. 450 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, liberal democracy is again been being 451 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: discredited in various ways. It doesn't sort of matter where 452 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: you are on the political spectrum, like liberal has kind 453 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: of become a dirty word. Um, you know, even if 454 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: you're on the left. And there is sort of a 455 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, as as Franklin Roosevelt no it in his day, 456 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: you know, kind of a hunger among some people for 457 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: a strong man. It's almost always a man who you 458 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: know will destroy their your enemies and you know, tell 459 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: you who to hate and then give you permission. And 460 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: this is really the big thing. It will give you 461 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: permission to just like live out you're just you know, 462 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: most extreme, you know, right in psycho sexual fantasies in 463 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: in destroying these people, and that just as it did 464 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: back then, it is now as memory of the horrors 465 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: of fascism, uh, you know, in the nineteen thirties and 466 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen forties, as as everybody who remembers those things 467 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: is you know, slowly you know going away. Rip Betty 468 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: White um and her generation that is again starting to 469 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: appeal to people, and you know, and that's in a 470 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: lot of ways what makes us such an urgent conversation. 471 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: Have Can we go back to the Spanish American War 472 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: for a moment, because I I think Smedley Butler had 473 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: that maybe that moment where all of a sudden, there's 474 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: something worth fighting for. When the USS main explosion tragedy occurs, 475 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: and I think it's two and or sixty individuals lost 476 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: their lives during that, and it was you know, blamed 477 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: pretty squarely on the Spanish forces and through you know, 478 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: through the things that were written. And is it the 479 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: New York Journal, I forget, what's the what's the uh, 480 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: that's the one New York journal at the time. Yeah, 481 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: it was The Herald was the Hearst paper, and the 482 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: Journal was the Pulitzer Paper. So yeah, something that was confused. 483 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: But there's something you know, their articles written that basically 484 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: identify an enemy and something worth fighting for. And that's 485 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: when Smedley around the time when Smedley joins up correct 486 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: it's exactly what it is. To put it in in 487 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: modern terms, it was basically a nine eleven of its day. 488 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: I don't say that lightly. Uh and and and maybe 489 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: I should, like, you know, define a couple of terms 490 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: in there, just so people don't get the wrong impression. 491 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: But what what I mean, basic lee is that it 492 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: was a big, spectacular event that was that was immediately 493 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: interpreted as a national tragedy, as an attack on the 494 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: nation um that that that called out for revenge, and 495 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: then was used as one pretext. It wasn't actually the 496 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: only pretext, but it was, it was one, and it 497 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: was a major pretext for the US invasion of Cuba. 498 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: So back to the weeds. So Cuba cubas an island 499 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: in the so Cuba Cuba. Cuba was a colony of 500 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: Spain and it had been basically since Christopher Columbus dropped 501 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: anchor in Guantanamo Bay in in uh and Um Cubans 502 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: had been fighting for their independence for about thirty years 503 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: at that point, UM, and they were very close to 504 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: winning it. Um. A new war had started in and 505 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: to a certain extent it had. The best thing you 506 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: could say that for the Spanish was that they had 507 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: battled to a a stalemate at that point. But the 508 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: Spanish were they they were committing horrible, horrible atrocities against 509 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: the Cuban people. Um. They invented a thing called contraction, 510 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: which is translated by into English as concentration camps. So 511 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: they invented concentration camps in Cuba. UM. And you know, 512 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: they're starving the population, they're you know, killing women and children. 513 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a it's it's a nightmare. And the 514 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: main the battleship Maine, one of America's first to steel battleships, 515 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: goes to Havana Harbor on a mission to basically protect 516 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: American interests in Cuba during this war, and it explodes 517 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: and nobody knows why it explodes. And actually, contrary to 518 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: popular belief, the US government never actually makes a statement 519 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: that the Spanish were responsible for the explosion. They also 520 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: don't make a statement like disclaiming the rumors that the 521 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: Spanish were were responsible for the explosion. They kind of 522 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: use that frenzy, which, as you know, it was, you know, 523 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: really created by you know, the sort of the Cuban 524 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: Exile War Caucus, but also by the newspapers, especially Joseph Pulitzer, 525 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: who for whom the Pulitzer Prizes are named by the way, 526 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: and and William Randolph Hurst, and so Smedley Butler is 527 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: a sixteen year old he's in high school on on 528 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: the mainline of Philadelphia in a town called Westchester, and he, uh, 529 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, he hears about this, and he's spurred into 530 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: action like like a lot, like like a lot of people, 531 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: and you know, he he sees himself as avenging the 532 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: deaths of of the sailors and the marines who died 533 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: on on the main um. And he also sees himself 534 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: as you know, as he puts its shouldering a rifle 535 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: to to free little Cuba. So he gets into that 536 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: war for anti imperialist you know, democratic they're they're they're 537 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: filtered through this sort of racist the term a list 538 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: like idea that like a sixteen year old white kid 539 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: from like the suburbs of Philly is needed to like 540 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: help the Cubans, like fight a war that they've already 541 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: been fighting for thirty years. Like it doesn't actually make 542 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: any sense when you think about it, but it made 543 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: sense to him, and so he actually lies about his 544 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: age and and joins the Marines. What I wanted to 545 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: say about, you know, the comparisons to to nine eleven, um, 546 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: is that the main is often sort of you know, 547 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: talked about, especially online, as being like, you know, the 548 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: prime example of a false flag attack, and nine eleven 549 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: is like in the darker corners of the Internet sometimes 550 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: you know, sort of talked about in the same way. Um. 551 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: And I've seen no evidence that, I mean, the Bush 552 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: administration certainly used nine eleven for their own purposes, um. 553 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: And and it was it was it ended up being 554 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: crassly convenient for them, um. But I don't see any 555 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: of it instant like they actually like planned it or 556 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: did it. And and by this by the same token, 557 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: there's no evid and that the McKinley administration like purposefully 558 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: blew up their own ship in order to to justify 559 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: going to war. They probably would have been able to 560 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: justify going to the war anyway, that there was already 561 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: sort of a beating drums about you know, in that 562 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: direction in Congress, which at that point had the power 563 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 1: to declare we're still does technically but doesn't really use it. 564 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: And you know, it just seems like it was a 565 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: design flaw basically, like the boiler was next to the 566 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: munition store and it was just a dumb It was 567 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 1: a dumb designersh ep section. Yeah, there are definitely events 568 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: that you know, helped to spur action. We see that 569 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: in Gulf of Talka. We see that, and I mean 570 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: Pearl Harbor all the way across across the board. There's 571 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: always one thing that ends up being the thing that 572 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: least is remembered by history as the thing that occurred. 573 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: Then everything else happened exactly. And just like and just 574 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 1: like Smithley Butler and the main a lot of people 575 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: on nine eleven, you know, especially young people, especially young men, 576 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: were like, my country needs me. I'm going to go 577 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: fight for democracy, and that's how you end up, you know, 578 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: getting to fight in in Iraq and Afghanistan. We're gonna 579 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: pause for a word from our sponsors. We're you know, 580 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,359 Speaker 1: hopefully not Haliburton or something, and we'll be back with 581 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: more from Jonathan Cats. We've returned with more on the 582 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,879 Speaker 1: complicated legacy of General Smedley Butler. Can we go back 583 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: to the business plant for just one second. I'm intrigued. 584 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: We keep we keep kind of hitting on echoes, you know, 585 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: in history of of things that happened then, and think 586 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: the kind of parallels of of things that we know 587 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 1: from more recent history. Um. The idea of a cabal 588 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: of elite business people UM conspiring to overthrow the government 589 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: is like such red meat for like conspiracy theorists, and 590 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: just like it's like sort of the quintessential thing everyone's 591 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: scared about happening. But we we've we sort of talked 592 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: on the show UM a lot about how like you 593 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: almost don't even have to do that anymore, are like 594 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: to go to that extreme to organize in that way 595 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: because everything is sort of so set up for the 596 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: success of these elite business people already, like the way 597 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,320 Speaker 1: our our system is sort of evolved or devolved. I guess, um, 598 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: can you speak to that a little bit about what 599 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: would a modern analog of this even look like or 600 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,880 Speaker 1: is it something that people would even seek because the 601 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: business people at that level are already so set up 602 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, government is already so in their pocket. Yeah, 603 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: so I mean one of the one of the things, 604 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, to look at the business plot in its 605 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: own moment and then look at there are other analogs 606 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: in that in that era that I think, you know, 607 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: in some ways are closer to the things that are 608 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 1: actually happening in this country now. You know, fascists never 609 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: really came to power as there's I can't think of 610 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: an example of fascists coming to power as a result 611 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: of sort of as you note, like an elite copal, 612 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: you know, planning a secret takeover um and then overthrowing 613 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: the government. They tended to come to power through a 614 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: combination of mass action and street violence, but also parliamentary action. Right. 615 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: So you know, Hitler becomes chancellor essentially no prime minister 616 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: of the Reichstag through democratic means, um he you know, 617 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: and an alliance between the Nazis, who were the far 618 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: far right party obviously in Germany at that time, and 619 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: then also the and then also the these the slightly 620 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: less extreme conservatives, um, who stupidly thought that they could 621 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: control him and they would just sort of like make 622 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: him like this figurehead prime minister and then and then 623 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: everything would turn out okay, Mussolini comes to power in 624 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. Again, this is sort of a a 625 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: a preview of of the plans or this was part 626 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: of where the business plotters, however many of there were 627 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: we could talk about, that drew their inspiration. It was 628 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: from UH an action in the N two called the 629 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: March on Rome. We're basically, you know, a bunch of 630 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: just you know, FASCISTI thugs, UM, you know, came to Rome, 631 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: the capital, and and intimidated the government UM and then 632 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 1: convinced the King of Italy to appoint Mussolini as his 633 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: prime minister, and appointed and convinced the parliament to to 634 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: approve it. The event that actually the business plotters, UH, 635 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,799 Speaker 1: we're the you know, the one business plotter that we 636 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 1: know was there right was was this guy, Gerald C. Maguire. 637 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: He was like a thirty seven year old bond salesman. 638 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 1: Who's the who's the guy who actually does the the 639 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: the attempted recruiting of UH smelly Butler And he's and 640 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: he's the only one who actually gets UH called before 641 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: Congress after you know, before the same subcommittee. The butler 642 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: testified in front of UM and he purchased himself and 643 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: lies about a whole lot of things. But in so 644 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 1: doing he has essentially confirms all the salient points that 645 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: that that Butler alleged against him. So we have him. 646 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: And he says to Butler, according to Butler um that 647 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: his inspiration. McGuire takes this tour of Europe in early 648 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: and he goes to all the hotspots. He goes to Italy, 649 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: he goes to Germany, and he goes to France. And 650 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: it's in France that he finds the model that he 651 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: thinks is most best suited to the American you know culture. 652 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: Um and he meets a group called the quad If 653 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: the Fiery Cross, and it's kind of like, you know, 654 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: like a like a super militaristic version of the American Legion. 655 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: Of the American Legion obviously was also U was also 656 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: doing sort of you know, street actions and and and 657 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: you know, strike breaking and stuff like that. But the 658 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: Quadrifa was was even more violent, and it's made up 659 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: of French veterans of the Last World War. And the 660 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: reason why the Quadife is important and an important model 661 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: is that a couple of weeks before McGuire's in Paris 662 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: on February, another thing that people don't know about. There 663 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: is a an enormous anti parliamentary riot in Paris consisting 664 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: almost entirely of fascist and far right groups and one 665 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: group of revolutionary communists because it's like they didn't want 666 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: to miss out on it, and they are they storm parliament. 667 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: Lets tell me if any of this sounds familiar, it's 668 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: kind of a loosely organized group of people that all 669 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: have they're all sort of in the same direction, but 670 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 1: they kind of all hate each other and and a 671 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: bunch of them are just like a bunch of clowns, 672 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: and they are like they end up storming the legislature, um, 673 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: and just end up fighting the police. Most of the 674 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: people who die are the rioters themselves, about teen of 675 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: them I think are killed. But they terrify the French 676 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,719 Speaker 1: people because you know their demand. And oh, by the way, 677 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: they're also animated by a conspiracy theory. Um. There was 678 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: a an anti Semitic conspiracy theory because a prominent corrupt individual, 679 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:25,839 Speaker 1: uh named Jeffrey Epstein, I'm sorry, named stevisty um has 680 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: just gotten rung up for corruption and so they then 681 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: build out this like huge, just ridiculous conspiracy theory that 682 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: basically like everyone in the French government on the left 683 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: or basically left of left of the fascist cannibal pedophiles. Yeah, 684 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,280 Speaker 1: it's like they're they're corrupt, and they're like they're selling 685 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: out the French people, and and and it's basically on 686 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: the basis of this that they storm parliament and just 687 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: as on January six. Um. And by the way, it's 688 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: even known by its state, it's called the Cis fevrier 689 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: and in French, so it's just it's just known as 690 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: February six. Still is so on just on it's on 691 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: January six, on February six. They don't achieve their their 692 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: main aim um, but they do succeed in because of 693 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: the parliamentary system getting the oh and they're also trying 694 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,400 Speaker 1: to basically they're trying to keep a government that's been 695 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: elected from being seated. That's that's the last that's the 696 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: last obvious parallel right. And what they do succeed in 697 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: in having sort of the center left prime Minister of France, 698 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: who they say is you know, a communist, but he isn't. 699 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: He's just like he's just a normal he's just not 700 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: a fascist. He's just not a fascist that he resigns 701 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: um In in favor of a conservative and and this 702 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: ends up having long implications in French history. Uh, it's 703 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of the creation of what's known as the 704 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: Popular Front, which was sort of a coalition between socialists 705 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: and liberals to to fight against fascism. But then it 706 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: also helps coalesced what ends up becoming the vs. Collaborationist 707 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: you know government in France that takes power when when 708 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: the Nazis and made the point of all of these 709 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: all this rambling is that what all of these things 710 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: have in common and what they have what is different 711 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: between them and the business plot is that they are 712 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: all examples of mass action that actually involves like a 713 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: significant portion of a society. They're they're needed, They're needed 714 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 1: to be a large number of people who believed in 715 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: this and we're willing to go into the streets and 716 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: get into fights and draw blood, and then a larger 717 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: number of people around them that was willing to you know, 718 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: cheer and you know, write songs about them and all 719 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: these other things. You need. You need all of that 720 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: really to see a fascist or a fascist government succeed. 721 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,680 Speaker 1: And you know, there are a number of reasons why 722 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: um it's the business plot, uh, such as it was, 723 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: didn't succeed in in overthrowing the government. I mean, I 724 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: think the biggest one is that smelly Butler blew the 725 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,280 Speaker 1: whistle on it before it could go any further, assuming 726 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 1: it would have gone any further. But one of the 727 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: things that I think that that did maybe was to 728 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: discredit whatever was trying to happen, you know, behind the 729 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,920 Speaker 1: scenes before you know, what would be known now like 730 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 1: as an AstroTurf campaign, before before sort of this messaging 731 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: could get out and and create this kind of mass action. 732 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: But also like the people who Butler alleges were behind 733 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,359 Speaker 1: it were people like you know, the dupons and like 734 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: you know, the head of General Motors. These were people 735 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 1: who were maybe also sort of at JP Morgan in company. 736 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: These were people who were also maybe so sort of 737 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: out of touch with the would be rank and file, 738 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, the working class that the people in the 739 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: country who they would need to to get behind them, 740 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: um that maybe they would have had a hard time 741 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: doing it. Anyway. However, however, again we'll talk about this, 742 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,919 Speaker 1: but however, from the planet here got that's the that's 743 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: the questions, that's one of the spooky things that we 744 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 1: keep going back and forth over. You know, we know 745 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:20,719 Speaker 1: that the person who contacted Butler originally we know uh 746 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: that they they were definitely attempting to proselytize. They were 747 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 1: definitely like evangelizing, pitching him on how great this would be. 748 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: But I love that you point out there are serious 749 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,400 Speaker 1: questions about how successful uh a kudata would have actually 750 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: been when the rubber of fascism hits the road, as 751 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,880 Speaker 1: it were. But one thing, this is one thing that 752 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: I think is haunting about this situation. Uh. And I 753 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: would love to hear you speak on this in a 754 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:58,240 Speaker 1: little more detail. My general understanding what happens. Butler says, uh, 755 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: we have different views on what constitutes patriotism. So he 756 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: blows the whistle, Congress hears him out, he does testify 757 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: to to Congress, and Congress does listen to him at least. 758 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: But then there's a moment where Congress just sort of 759 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: doesn't do right if I if I could use the 760 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,479 Speaker 1: technical legislative term here, they just don't. Uh. So that 761 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: missing part, right, the fact that they did not move 762 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: forward on there is why UM folks like you and 763 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: us have to carefully deploy the word allegedly in a 764 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: lot of these conversations. So I would love to hear 765 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: your um because you are the foremost expert on this now, 766 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 1: So I would love to hear your concepts or your 767 00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,760 Speaker 1: your perspective on why those investigations never occurred, Like why 768 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: was there never? Why? Why was there never? Like a 769 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,799 Speaker 1: hard hitting dive into pots, you know, uh what why 770 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,760 Speaker 1: was that? So the committee that Butler testifies in front 771 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: of as a subcommittee, but it's it's it's the leaders 772 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,879 Speaker 1: of this larger committee. It's called the Select Committee on 773 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: un American Activities. And my fellow history and ords out 774 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: there might those words might ring a bell. This is 775 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: what becomes ultimately HUAK, which is one of the most 776 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: notorious committees in American history. It is associated with the 777 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: McCarthy era. Obviously, Joseph McCarthy was a senator, so he 778 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: wasn't on HUACK. But but they were engaging in in 779 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: that same kind of sort of red baiting, you know, 780 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: wish hunting of of you know, suspected communists after the 781 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: Second World War, um during during the Cold War and 782 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: the and the Second Red Scare. So that committee was 783 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: primarily engaged in that They had been convened to investigate 784 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,839 Speaker 1: it was called like Nazi propaganda and other activities. Um, 785 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,560 Speaker 1: they were interested in attempts by the actual Nazis, right, 786 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:13,479 Speaker 1: the German National Socialist Workers Party to infiltrate the United States, 787 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: which was happening. I mean, there were there were American groups, Um, 788 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: the Silver Shirts were one, the German American Blend was another. 789 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: Um that that you know was taking direct money and 790 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: direct funding from the Nazis. And there were Americans who 791 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,879 Speaker 1: were working with the Nazis. Right. So Henry Ford is 792 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: is one of the most famous. He ends up, you know, 793 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: accepting like the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in 794 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, which is like there's no good time 795 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: to be hanging out with Nazis. But like that's late, 796 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: that is extremely late. Mr ford another name by the 797 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: way that that often is it comes up popularly with 798 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,759 Speaker 1: the business plot um, but as far as I can tell, 799 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 1: was not actually involved. This is sort of the result 800 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: of of miscommunication. Is Prescott Bush, right, who was the 801 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,480 Speaker 1: grandfather of George W. Bush and the father of George H. W. Bush. 802 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: So to presidents, he becomes a senator himself later. The 803 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: reason why that confusion occurs is because the same committee 804 00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,760 Speaker 1: that that that Butler testified in front of was investigating, 805 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: in a separate investigation the bank that Bush was a 806 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,120 Speaker 1: partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, because Brown Brothers Harriman was 807 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 1: doing business with the Nazis and they had this sort 808 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: of joint ownership thing over over shipping line. So so 809 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,280 Speaker 1: it's actually not true. But it's like Bush was too 810 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: close to the actual Nazis to actually be involved with 811 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,520 Speaker 1: the business plot because the business plot was an entirely 812 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: homegrown affair. So to a certain extent, maybe that's part 813 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,279 Speaker 1: of the explanation of of why can I kind of 814 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: jump in really fast? I just want to apologize to 815 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,319 Speaker 1: everyone listening. I have asserted a couple of times that 816 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,719 Speaker 1: Prescott Bush was a part of it. I just as understood, 817 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: So I I do apologize there. Um, Wow, he was 818 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,160 Speaker 1: too busy in Nicaragua. I guess the exactly exactly. Yeah, 819 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,319 Speaker 1: it's a it's an easy it's an easy mistake to make. Um. 820 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,319 Speaker 1: And if anybody out there has, you know, information that 821 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,080 Speaker 1: is different than this, like, I would love to to 822 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,320 Speaker 1: to hear it. Um. I'm always open to corrections and 823 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: and trying to be as complete as possible. Um. But 824 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: but so far as I can tell, that came into 825 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,360 Speaker 1: the conversation. There was a BBC documentary in two thousand 826 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,360 Speaker 1: and seven that sort of ran through that very quickly, 827 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 1: and and and and there was like a blog post 828 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,720 Speaker 1: that got written that that made that confusion. And that's 829 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 1: that's what you know. And it was you know, Bush 830 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,399 Speaker 1: was president at the time, so it kind of caught 831 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,200 Speaker 1: fire and and here we are, okay, So that's part 832 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: of it. The other thing is that you know, this 833 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: committee it had it had a limited shelf life. It 834 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: was supposed to disband a couple of weeks after Butler testified, 835 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: and it did on schedule. Now it seems like to me, 836 00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 1: who am I A million years later, you know, it 837 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:07,919 Speaker 1: would have been like I I could have you could 838 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,360 Speaker 1: have easily made the case to like go back to 839 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,399 Speaker 1: to you know, the Speaker of the House and say, like, 840 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: we have this actual important thing going on, you know, 841 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,360 Speaker 1: maybe we should extend the life of this committee for 842 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 1: for a little while. Um they did not. So so 843 00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,640 Speaker 1: there are two main members of the committee. John McCormack, 844 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: who ends up becoming Speaker of the House years later, 845 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: he ends up serving until the nineteen seventies. And Samuel Dickstein, 846 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 1: who's a Democrat of New York. They're the two people 847 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,520 Speaker 1: who really wanted to form this committee, and they're the 848 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,960 Speaker 1: two people who here Butler's testimony under oath um in 849 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: a special session in New York. And Butler spends a 850 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: significant portion of n fighting on the radio. Basically it's 851 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: like in a poster like flame war with Samuel Dickstein. 852 00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:04,240 Speaker 1: We're Butler has this like radio show um uh sponsored 853 00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,720 Speaker 1: by Pep Boys, by the way, because he's in Philly, 854 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,840 Speaker 1: um where he like he's like using his his like 855 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,640 Speaker 1: Pep Boys radio hour to be like, these these assholes 856 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 1: aren't like I gave them this thing, and they're not 857 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,040 Speaker 1: investigating it. They brought the lowest level people forward. Why 858 00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,800 Speaker 1: aren't they going to bring the higher, higher level people. 859 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,239 Speaker 1: And he sort mocked a little bit, wasn't he, like 860 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: even publicly he was ashamed to some degree. Yes, So 861 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: so that's so that's another part of it, right. The 862 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:36,600 Speaker 1: initial the initial reaction by the press too, Butler's uh 863 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: testimony is ridicule. The New York Times runs the story 864 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,960 Speaker 1: of him testifying on the front page, but they give 865 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,719 Speaker 1: most of the real estate to the denials of the 866 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 1: people who who Butler implicated. Um, he's mocked in Time magazine, 867 00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,359 Speaker 1: he's mocked in a in a Times editorial. Later on, 868 00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: they're like very small walk backs corrections. Um. When McCormick 869 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,800 Speaker 1: and dick Stein, you know when their committee like issues 870 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,080 Speaker 1: his final report and they're basically like, we were able 871 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: to verify you know, the pertinent parts of Butler's testimony 872 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,160 Speaker 1: as far as they went, Um, we you know these 873 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,360 Speaker 1: these things. I forget the exact wording. It's in Gangsters, 874 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,120 Speaker 1: but like it's like, you know, these things were definitely 875 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,759 Speaker 1: discussed and they may have been put into action, you 876 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,879 Speaker 1: know when when the backers saw fit, but they did 877 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 1: not bring the big guys in, And I think it 878 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: was probably fear of I mean, these are very powerful people, 879 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:42,400 Speaker 1: the DuPonts, Um, JP Morgan, Uh, you know his bank, 880 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 1: Alfred Pecelane of General Motors, McCann, Ericsson ad Agency. Um. 881 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,760 Speaker 1: You know, these were very very powerful, very influential people. 882 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: So Butler testifies that Jerry McGuire approached him. Jerry McGuire 883 00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 1: is brought in to testify, as I said, through a 884 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,840 Speaker 1: perjury filled ridiculous testimony. He ends up sort of accidentally 885 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:09,440 Speaker 1: confirming most of of of what Butler said. Um, they're 886 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,920 Speaker 1: one of the low level people who sort of seemed 887 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: to be backing McGuire early on is a guy named Um. 888 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: He's the heir to the Singer sewing machine fortune, and 889 00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 1: Um his lawyer comes in and basically throws McGuire under 890 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: the bus, and it's just sort of like, no, it 891 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,680 Speaker 1: was all him. It was all him. So one of 892 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: the reasons why why I think maybe more than some 893 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,240 Speaker 1: other people do, that it is credible that McGuire actually 894 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:40,160 Speaker 1: had some people behind him is McGuire's boss, a guy 895 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 1: named Grayson Mallett Provost Murphy. He was a rich financier 896 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,879 Speaker 1: who had the resume of someone who would have known 897 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,719 Speaker 1: how to plan a coup, So he's Butler's age. He 898 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,759 Speaker 1: joins the military during the Spanish American War, but goes 899 00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,400 Speaker 1: into military intelligence and spends a couple of day gads 900 00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: going around the world to a lot of the places 901 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,440 Speaker 1: the Butler went, but as a spy, and he works 902 00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:09,840 Speaker 1: in the Philippines. He seems to be part of the 903 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: plot to sever Panama from Colombia, which the Marines participate 904 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,160 Speaker 1: in which which is what enables the United States to 905 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:22,560 Speaker 1: build the Panama Canal and established the the US Canal Zone. UM. 906 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: He then goes into private finance. His uncle is the 907 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: guy who actually calls Brown Brothers speaking of Prescott Bush 908 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,080 Speaker 1: and tells them, you should come into Nicaragua, um and 909 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,279 Speaker 1: and take over the banks and we can get the 910 00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,759 Speaker 1: Marines behind you. Um. He tours Europe after World War One. 911 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,200 Speaker 1: He's in he's in Europe helping run the American Red 912 00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,080 Speaker 1: Cross UM during the First World War, and then he 913 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: tours Europe after the war with wild Bill Donovan, who 914 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,880 Speaker 1: ends up becoming the spymaster head of what's known as 915 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,200 Speaker 1: the OSS, which is, you know, the immediate forerunner to 916 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,239 Speaker 1: the CIA. So this is a guy who would have 917 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: known Butler very well, not necessarily personally, but he would 918 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,680 Speaker 1: have known his career and he certainly, you know, as 919 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: the saying gangsters, would have known his way around the 920 00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,200 Speaker 1: planning of a coup. That is Jerry McGuire's boss. And 921 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:15,880 Speaker 1: with that, we're going to take a quick break, but 922 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:25,080 Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more from Jonathan Katz. And 923 00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,640 Speaker 1: we're back with more from Jonathan Kats. I just want 924 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: to pause for a moment and point this out. Although 925 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: it's extraordinarily petty when we hear these kind of stories, Jonathan, 926 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: with all with this massive connections and evidence and people 927 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: getting away, I am yet again flabbergasted, Like I can't 928 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: even get out of a late fee at the library, 929 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,000 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, what is the justice? But 930 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 1: you're but you're laying out this case like it's are 931 00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,960 Speaker 1: extremely important. I just want libraries are and I do 932 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: pay the fees in case they're listening, I do pay 933 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,280 Speaker 1: the fees, and I'm sorry. But the the the thing 934 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,320 Speaker 1: that we're talking about here that I think should disturb 935 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:14,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people is the the hidden connections here, 936 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, the there is you don't even need necessarily 937 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:25,480 Speaker 1: active obstitutation or a conspiracy by design, because if people 938 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: have these close relationships, they as rational actors, are going 939 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: to move toward things that they feel are acts of 940 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,920 Speaker 1: self preservation. Right. And and we also just to highlight 941 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of us listening at home we're 942 00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 1: thinking this too. Those have to highlight these tremendously powerful 943 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,920 Speaker 1: people don't just have the ability to influence their friends 944 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,120 Speaker 1: and government. They have the ability to influence their friends 945 00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,440 Speaker 1: and media. So I personally feel that it is highly 946 00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:01,000 Speaker 1: unlikely that editorial boards at Time and the New York 947 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 1: Times just independently decided to report a similar slant and 948 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,360 Speaker 1: I left out by the way of Murphy's. So when 949 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,880 Speaker 1: Murphy goes into private finance, he ends up being part 950 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,520 Speaker 1: of the JP Morgan universe. Um, he ends up overseeing 951 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:22,320 Speaker 1: the controlling loan that the Morgan's end up controlling in 952 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: the Dominican Republic, where Butler and the Marines also in vade. 953 00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: And so he's very closely tied to JP Morgan. And 954 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, Gerald McGuire when he's in France meeting with 955 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: the Quadrifie uh you know this this this fascist group 956 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,040 Speaker 1: or far right group, I guess um his his headquarters 957 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: in Paris is more is essentially the Morgan subsidiary in Paris. 958 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:54,840 Speaker 1: Um that so, all of that said, in order to 959 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:59,440 Speaker 1: get from these guys to the bigger names, the DuPonts 960 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Afred p Sloan, you know, et cetera, McGuire says to Butler, 961 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: and Butler testifies that there is going to be a 962 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,360 Speaker 1: group that emerges that is going to be He calls 963 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,360 Speaker 1: them the villagers and the opera right, so the the 964 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,000 Speaker 1: the extras right in the background, who are going to 965 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:24,760 Speaker 1: be supporting this thing. And uh, he predicts that, um, 966 01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,440 Speaker 1: this new organization is going to emerge, and he's like, 967 01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: you're gonna see it in the front pages, you know, 968 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,560 Speaker 1: in the next couple of weeks. And as Butler says, 969 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 1: lo and behold, a couple of weeks later, on the 970 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 1: front page of the New York Times, this new organization 971 01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:42,320 Speaker 1: emerges and announces itself called the Liberty League. It is 972 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,080 Speaker 1: a group that is founded by the DuPonts with all 973 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,680 Speaker 1: these other guys that I that I mentioned. It also 974 01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:53,280 Speaker 1: has two uh, former Democratic candidates for president, Al Smith 975 01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:58,560 Speaker 1: and John W. Davis, who remain important Democrats you know 976 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,360 Speaker 1: throughout the middle part of the twentieth century. You know, 977 01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,560 Speaker 1: they're Democrats, but they're but they become anti f DR, 978 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,880 Speaker 1: anti New Deal Democrats, and um, you know, because they're 979 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,360 Speaker 1: sort of hearkening back to the older conservative tradition in 980 01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. And um, you know, the Liberty League 981 01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:23,520 Speaker 1: is indisputably an anti f DR, anti New Deal group. 982 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 1: It is it's basically a a business led interest group 983 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 1: that is trying to short circuit and stop the new 984 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 1: Deal and stop the redistribution of wealth from the people 985 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: who caused the Great Depression to the to the masses 986 01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,840 Speaker 1: who are the victims of the Great Depression. Right, that's 987 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: what that's what the Liberty League wants, which is also 988 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: what the business plotters wanted. So it's not it is 989 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,480 Speaker 1: it is in no way is it beyond the realm 990 01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,040 Speaker 1: of imagination that they could have backed the sort of 991 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: thing because they wanted this thing. And by the way, 992 01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Grayson M. P. Murphy is the treasurer of the Liberty League. Okay, 993 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,760 Speaker 1: so this is all very very strong circumstantial evidence. It 994 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,920 Speaker 1: is not definitive evidence. Definitive evidence would have needed a 995 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:16,240 Speaker 1: paper trail. They would have needed Congress calling in the 996 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,280 Speaker 1: big shots, the DuPonts, Al Smith, John W. Davis, you know, 997 01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,280 Speaker 1: Alfred P. Sloan pew All, every all. It seems like 998 01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,520 Speaker 1: all these guys who have like big like charitable trust 999 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,960 Speaker 1: these days, they were all hard of like the Liberty League, right, um. 1000 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:36,320 Speaker 1: And it would have needed, you know, uh, more definitive investigation, 1001 01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,440 Speaker 1: more definitive reporting, and that was not done. It was 1002 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 1: not done at the time. Butler enlists a reporter who 1003 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: he knew from his days running the Philadelphia Police Department. 1004 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,480 Speaker 1: By the way, Butler spent a couple of years running 1005 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:57,000 Speaker 1: in Miltar. I see the Philadelphia Police Department. Um, yes, exactly, 1006 01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,120 Speaker 1: that's in the book. Read it. Um. But uh, yeah, 1007 01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,240 Speaker 1: he brings that one guy in basically to do sort 1008 01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:08,720 Speaker 1: of his own allied you know, maybe quote unquote independent investigation, 1009 01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,160 Speaker 1: because he's he's definitely you know, siding with Butler in this. 1010 01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,560 Speaker 1: But there's no there's no other investigative journalism done, and 1011 01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:20,439 Speaker 1: there's no congressional investigation. And that's and that's the part 1012 01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,920 Speaker 1: that's missing, you know. I say in the book, like, 1013 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:29,439 Speaker 1: you know, it is possible that interpretive denials that are 1014 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:35,480 Speaker 1: issued by you know, these principles, um, that they were legitimate. 1015 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Like it maybe that they hadn't heard about this happening 1016 01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,080 Speaker 1: yet because Grace and Murphy hadn't come to them yet. 1017 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,600 Speaker 1: You know, maybe or maybe or maybe or maybe he 1018 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,320 Speaker 1: maybe you know, maybe he had just started talking about it, 1019 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,960 Speaker 1: but they hadn't agreed to anything yet. Or maybe they 1020 01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,040 Speaker 1: hadn't I mean, maybe maybe maybe these plans, maybe these 1021 01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:55,760 Speaker 1: plans were in the works and and Butler blew the 1022 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: whistle on him and who knows. It's really hard to say. 1023 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,200 Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that's lost by but 1024 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,720 Speaker 1: by the lack of investigation. And so you know, the 1025 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,520 Speaker 1: answer is and this is something that that I'm afraid 1026 01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,240 Speaker 1: that we're going to see with with you know, the 1027 01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:11,320 Speaker 1: January six committee, UM. You know, they seem to be 1028 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,560 Speaker 1: going farther in they're they're they're doing a longer investigation, 1029 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:19,840 Speaker 1: uh than than the the UN American Activities Committee, did 1030 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, with with Butler's allegations, um in N four. 1031 01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:25,960 Speaker 1: But one of the things that you know, I'm I'm 1032 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,560 Speaker 1: afraid of is that there will be and we see 1033 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,520 Speaker 1: this right now with with Biden's Justice Department, with Marrick Garland. 1034 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,360 Speaker 1: There is a there is an American allergy among elites 1035 01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:42,280 Speaker 1: and among power elites and economic elites to uh, you know, 1036 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:49,160 Speaker 1: holding their own accountable unless it is absolutely necessary, like 1037 01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:53,600 Speaker 1: unless unless they unless they have absolutely no choice, um. 1038 01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,840 Speaker 1: And and that's that's that. And that was what Butler 1039 01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,080 Speaker 1: was yelling at at Samuel Dick Steon about. And and 1040 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 1: it may be what we uh, I mean, it could 1041 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:02,920 Speaker 1: be what we see happen now. And I think it 1042 01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:04,800 Speaker 1: would be more dangerous for that to happen now even 1043 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:08,080 Speaker 1: than the yes. And that's what's another thing that's important 1044 01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:10,800 Speaker 1: about that point, I would argue, is that there is 1045 01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: a misconception in the American public that self preservation of 1046 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,720 Speaker 1: an elite class is often a political right. It's it's 1047 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:26,680 Speaker 1: not something that is more common to one party than another. Um. 1048 01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,840 Speaker 1: And with this, you know, our our show today is 1049 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:36,120 Speaker 1: running a a little longer. Uh, but but we're just 1050 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,840 Speaker 1: scratching the surface. We're obviously fans of your work here 1051 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,480 Speaker 1: and it touched there. There's so many things we have 1052 01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,840 Speaker 1: not touched on now. One of the last questions that 1053 01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,360 Speaker 1: we had was about what this tale can teach us 1054 01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,880 Speaker 1: about the present day. And I love that you're you've 1055 01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:58,240 Speaker 1: already taken us to that point to put a really 1056 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,120 Speaker 1: fine point on this, to and throw a bow on it. 1057 01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,160 Speaker 1: What would you say people who check out gangsters and capitalism, 1058 01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,880 Speaker 1: or people who familiarize themselves with Butler's story, what what 1059 01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,480 Speaker 1: should they take away from it? The shortest way to 1060 01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: put it is you know that that it can happen 1061 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,720 Speaker 1: here right Um. In fact, the book It Can't Happen 1062 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,680 Speaker 1: Here by St. Clair Lewis was was in a lot 1063 01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:24,280 Speaker 1: of ways inspired by you know, Butler's whistleblowing on on 1064 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:26,960 Speaker 1: the business plot, like he he he drew, he drew 1065 01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,440 Speaker 1: inspiration from that event, and he had had run ins 1066 01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:33,240 Speaker 1: with with Butler before that, which is which I talked 1067 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:37,680 Speaker 1: about in Gangsters. St. Clair Lewis had um. I think 1068 01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,240 Speaker 1: that it is it is first of all, that we 1069 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,560 Speaker 1: need to know our history, not just the business plot. 1070 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:46,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Gangsters is really the business plot, uh, 1071 01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: and and Butler's you know, end of life activism kind 1072 01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,600 Speaker 1: of book ended. But the meat of the book really 1073 01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:57,560 Speaker 1: almost the entire book is about uh Butler and the Marines, 1074 01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:07,440 Speaker 1: you know, conquests and invasions of Nicaragua, China, UH, the Philippines, Haiti, etcetera, etcetera, Mexico, 1075 01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,880 Speaker 1: all of these things that happened uh much more recently 1076 01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: than wars that we we spend much more time talking about, 1077 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: like the Civil War. But then Americans don't know anything 1078 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,600 Speaker 1: about and the rest of the world does know about these, 1079 01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,000 Speaker 1: especially the places that we invaded, and it puts us 1080 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 1: at a disadvantage when we're understand when we're when we're 1081 01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,320 Speaker 1: trying to to, you know, uh, deal with with those 1082 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:34,000 Speaker 1: countries in terms of international relations, but also comes with 1083 01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:38,040 Speaker 1: a disadvantage in terms of understanding ourselves. Um. You know, 1084 01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,840 Speaker 1: there were a lot of thinkers, especially you know, people 1085 01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,560 Speaker 1: who had had gone through the process of colonization themselves. 1086 01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,800 Speaker 1: Uh in the decades after this period, in in the 1087 01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,880 Speaker 1: mid twentieth century, um ahm says, there Uh the great 1088 01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:59,440 Speaker 1: UH French writer from from um Uh Martinique Uh and 1089 01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,959 Speaker 1: France found on Uh. They both talked about France found 1090 01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:07,400 Speaker 1: on had this great uh description of fascism, that fascism 1091 01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,600 Speaker 1: is colonialism practiced in the heart of a traditionally colonialist country. 1092 01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,320 Speaker 1: And I like that. It's very good, very good. Frans 1093 01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:19,240 Speaker 1: found on um and he and and what he is 1094 01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:22,439 Speaker 1: arguing there is it was you know, it was it 1095 01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:26,599 Speaker 1: was primarily you know, they were they were gearing that 1096 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:30,120 Speaker 1: toward Europe. But it's also applicable to the United States. 1097 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:34,479 Speaker 1: And in order to understand the ways in which is 1098 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,920 Speaker 1: applicable to the United States requires understanding that we have 1099 01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,040 Speaker 1: been a traditionally colonialist country. We've been many things, we 1100 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,000 Speaker 1: are many things. We've also we are also a great 1101 01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, innovator of democracy and and the country you 1102 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,880 Speaker 1: know that was founded on the principle that that all 1103 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:52,920 Speaker 1: men are created equal, even if it wasn't true at 1104 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:55,679 Speaker 1: all then as far as the founders were concerned, and 1105 01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,759 Speaker 1: and and we have struggled to make it true since. 1106 01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:01,559 Speaker 1: But that's part of us too. But we have also 1107 01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,599 Speaker 1: done these horrible things and and continuing to do them 1108 01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,040 Speaker 1: up to the present day, with with you know, the 1109 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:10,320 Speaker 1: Drone War, and and you know our our conquests of 1110 01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,640 Speaker 1: countries in the Middle East, and so you know, in 1111 01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, what was happening in ninety four 1112 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:22,439 Speaker 1: was that these forces which had been unleashed abroad by people, 1113 01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:26,840 Speaker 1: including maybe especially Smedley Butler, were then trying to be 1114 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,519 Speaker 1: applied at home. And the idea was that if you 1115 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,640 Speaker 1: could do this to your enemies abroad, if you can 1116 01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,800 Speaker 1: do this to people that you consider subhuman abroad, why 1117 01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:39,360 Speaker 1: not just declare your political enemies subhuman and do it 1118 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,519 Speaker 1: to them. And we are we we are seeing that 1119 01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:48,680 Speaker 1: tendency take root again in the United States. You know, 1120 01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,840 Speaker 1: you see it in poll after poll as Americans say, 1121 01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,240 Speaker 1: you know that they are more willing to see uh 1122 01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:59,920 Speaker 1: political violence applied to you know, the other side ESPEC. 1123 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,760 Speaker 1: Actually those numbers go up especially high. I think it 1124 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:07,280 Speaker 1: was like people were saying, you know, before election that 1125 01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 1: as long as they could sort of justify to them, 1126 01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,760 Speaker 1: as long as the other party didn't first. What that 1127 01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,960 Speaker 1: really means, as long as you can justify yourself saying 1128 01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:18,479 Speaker 1: that the other party is doing it first. You know, 1129 01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,479 Speaker 1: if you consider like the COVID vaccine to be violent, 1130 01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,880 Speaker 1: then like then all is permitted, right as as as 1131 01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, and that that's that's a fascist tendency. Um 1132 01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,400 Speaker 1: and and you know, and you and we saw in 1133 01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:35,800 Speaker 1: the run up to that election, um, people saying that, 1134 01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, they would be willing to do anything to 1135 01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:41,679 Speaker 1: keep the other side from gaining power, in the same 1136 01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,920 Speaker 1: way that Americans were willing to, you know, do anything 1137 01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:48,320 Speaker 1: after eleven. We're willing to torture, we were willing to invade, 1138 01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: we were willing to kill. And it's it's the important 1139 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:56,799 Speaker 1: thing is understanding those connections existed in the nineteen thirties, 1140 01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:02,000 Speaker 1: those those connections exist today. And it is only by 1141 01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,800 Speaker 1: talking about them and understanding structurally what is happening that 1142 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:09,640 Speaker 1: we can understand how seriously to take this threat of 1143 01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:15,200 Speaker 1: losing our democracy, of of losing these extremely fragile, oftentimes 1144 01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:20,360 Speaker 1: not fully lived out principles really quickly. I mean like 1145 01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:24,960 Speaker 1: not only not fully lived out, but not even enforceable 1146 01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:26,800 Speaker 1: in some ways. Like it's sort of like a lot 1147 01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,599 Speaker 1: of it is like a matter of decorum whether leaders 1148 01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,439 Speaker 1: choose to follow those norms. You know. It's almost like, 1149 01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:40,160 Speaker 1: uh polite, but now people are not being polite anymore, 1150 01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:41,479 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, like you 1151 01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:43,360 Speaker 1: know one of the people who, I mean, god knows, 1152 01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,400 Speaker 1: I don't know how to get through the Kristin Kristen cinema. 1153 01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:51,280 Speaker 1: If I did, I would, but like, you know, she 1154 01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,639 Speaker 1: she's somebody who you know, she wasn't progressive, and she's 1155 01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:59,400 Speaker 1: somebody who you know could benefit from from understanding you 1156 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,360 Speaker 1: know how. You know, the United States is a country 1157 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:07,400 Speaker 1: that has not been above using violence and dehumanization all 1158 01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:11,000 Speaker 1: over the world. And it took somebody like Smedley Butler 1159 01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,639 Speaker 1: who had done those things and then regretted them, right. 1160 01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:15,720 Speaker 1: I mean he you know at the same time that 1161 01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:17,920 Speaker 1: he that he blows the whistle on the business plot. 1162 01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,000 Speaker 1: A year later, um he he writes, you know a 1163 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,240 Speaker 1: series of articles for uh frankly, a socialist magazine called 1164 01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,640 Speaker 1: Common Sense, in which he says, you know, I, you know, 1165 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,960 Speaker 1: participated in the raping of half a dozen Central American countries. 1166 01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:35,840 Speaker 1: I made you know, Mexico and China, say for for 1167 01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:39,760 Speaker 1: for the oil companies. I was a racketeer for capitalism 1168 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,240 Speaker 1: um and and to a certain extent, what he's doing 1169 01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,719 Speaker 1: over the last ten years of his life is trying 1170 01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:48,960 Speaker 1: to make that right. And and we are at we 1171 01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,080 Speaker 1: are at a moment when you know, uh, you know, 1172 01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,559 Speaker 1: the Voting Rights Act has been gutted, and you know 1173 01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:00,439 Speaker 1: Congress is the Democrats in Congress are trying to you know, 1174 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,200 Speaker 1: pass a voting rights bill and they're being stymied by 1175 01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, two Democrats in in Joe Mansion and Kristen 1176 01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:10,960 Speaker 1: Cinema who were saying like, oh, but it's this holy 1177 01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:14,120 Speaker 1: principle of like the filibuster, which is which is really 1178 01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,439 Speaker 1: a brand new thing that didn't exist anyway. That's going 1179 01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:19,280 Speaker 1: off topic, but what but what I'm trying But what 1180 01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:22,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is like they need to understand 1181 01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:24,519 Speaker 1: how urgent this is, and they need to understand how 1182 01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:29,160 Speaker 1: easily could happen. And you know, the one thing to 1183 01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,720 Speaker 1: to take I think you're absolutely right that you know, 1184 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:35,720 Speaker 1: the media in ninety four was certainly influenced by their 1185 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,080 Speaker 1: contacts and their sympathies in the business community, but to 1186 01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:42,760 Speaker 1: a certain extent also they didn't understand how real the 1187 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,439 Speaker 1: threat was because they didn't fully understand what had been 1188 01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:50,040 Speaker 1: happening for all those decades overseas. Smedley Butler did. He had, 1189 01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, he had overthrown the parliament in Haiti, he 1190 01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:56,160 Speaker 1: had overthrown governments all over the world. He knew how easily, 1191 01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,120 Speaker 1: how how it doesn't actually take you know, a great 1192 01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:03,880 Speaker 1: cinematic event to to overthrow a democracy. That all you 1193 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:07,760 Speaker 1: need are a critical mass of people, you know, the 1194 01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,479 Speaker 1: wrong people in the right place at the right time 1195 01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,240 Speaker 1: to do it. Because he had been one of those 1196 01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,200 Speaker 1: wrong people, and he was now trying to be one 1197 01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:17,320 Speaker 1: of the right people. And we need more people to 1198 01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:19,479 Speaker 1: stand up and be the right people today to keep 1199 01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:24,160 Speaker 1: that from happening. That is so well said. So peek 1200 01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,280 Speaker 1: behind the curtain, folks. We actually we paused for a 1201 01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:32,040 Speaker 1: second because there's so much stuff that we didn't get to. 1202 01:14:32,439 --> 01:14:36,040 Speaker 1: And uh, Matt Nolan I actually had a little bit 1203 01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:39,240 Speaker 1: of a back and forth over what we what we 1204 01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,599 Speaker 1: could get to. We are, believe it or not, just 1205 01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:47,240 Speaker 1: scratching the surface of an incredibly, incredibly dense story. Jonathan, 1206 01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the show, but 1207 01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:53,360 Speaker 1: I think more importantly, thank you for writing this book, 1208 01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:57,600 Speaker 1: because this is this is both something people need to 1209 01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,400 Speaker 1: know and I would argue it's stuff they don't want 1210 01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,840 Speaker 1: you to know, or certainly people at the time did not. 1211 01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,559 Speaker 1: Could you let our audience know where to find you, 1212 01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:11,360 Speaker 1: where to contact you. Earlier you had said, you know, 1213 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,760 Speaker 1: if anyone has some Prescott Bush evidence, hit me up. 1214 01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:18,200 Speaker 1: So where can people do that? Yeah? So, first of all, 1215 01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:22,360 Speaker 1: Gangsters of Capitalism is out. You can buy it anywhere 1216 01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:25,479 Speaker 1: that you buy books. Uh. Independent bookstores are great, Please 1217 01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,680 Speaker 1: support them. But you know, anywere anywhere, anywhere, anywhere that 1218 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,200 Speaker 1: you get your books, you can get it. Um. You 1219 01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,639 Speaker 1: can find me. I have a newsletter. It is called 1220 01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:39,280 Speaker 1: The Racket, uh, named for Smelly Butler's book War As 1221 01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:42,280 Speaker 1: a Racket. You can find that at the Racket dot 1222 01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:46,000 Speaker 1: news UM and you can find me on Twitter at 1223 01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:50,080 Speaker 1: cats on Earth kat e z on this planet that 1224 01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:55,040 Speaker 1: we're on. Well we did it. We uh, we sort 1225 01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:59,160 Speaker 1: of tricked you, dear listen uh and ourselves into attending 1226 01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:02,720 Speaker 1: a college class. Amazing, this episode brought to you by 1227 01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:06,120 Speaker 1: the Great Courses dot Com. But but that was just 1228 01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,360 Speaker 1: as good, if not better than any of their offering. Yeah, 1229 01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,439 Speaker 1: there's no tricking here. Uh, like I would, I would 1230 01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,559 Speaker 1: pay for that. Yeah. And we Uh. Behind the scenes, 1231 01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,840 Speaker 1: we did go back and forth about whether to make 1232 01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:21,400 Speaker 1: this interview segment a two parter, but we wanted to 1233 01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,840 Speaker 1: keep all of this together because the context sort of 1234 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,320 Speaker 1: dovetails so beautifully throughout the throughout the story. Uh. And 1235 01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:31,840 Speaker 1: we can't wait to hear what you think. We have 1236 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:36,800 Speaker 1: read this book, Gangsters of Capitalism is out now. We 1237 01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:41,160 Speaker 1: also have more work with Jonathan Kat's coming in the future. 1238 01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,559 Speaker 1: We would love to hear your opinion on what the 1239 01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:48,960 Speaker 1: business plot can teach us today. What does it tell 1240 01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:51,800 Speaker 1: us about the modern world, not just the US, but 1241 01:16:52,479 --> 01:16:55,360 Speaker 1: the modern concept of democracy in general. I don't know, 1242 01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:56,800 Speaker 1: is that a good way to set it up? Guys? 1243 01:16:57,080 --> 01:16:59,559 Speaker 1: I think it tells us heaps, It does not all 1244 01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,000 Speaker 1: not all all the best stuff really, I mean, from yes, 1245 01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,439 Speaker 1: from this conversation, I want us to cover the Spanish 1246 01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:08,479 Speaker 1: American War more. I learned so much from this book 1247 01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:11,559 Speaker 1: and from Smedley Butler's Like Travels. I learned a lot 1248 01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:14,519 Speaker 1: about what the US was doing and like the the 1249 01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,960 Speaker 1: hard choices that were made during that conflict. So I 1250 01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:20,799 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm really into it. Also, I can't get 1251 01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,559 Speaker 1: over what a miss que it was on the part 1252 01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,839 Speaker 1: of those business elite to try to rope Smedley Butler 1253 01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,880 Speaker 1: into their business plot. Like, better luck next time, guys, 1254 01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,280 Speaker 1: try to read the room better. Um. Also, if you're 1255 01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:37,920 Speaker 1: interested in some further listening on sort of an adjacent subject, Ben, 1256 01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:41,200 Speaker 1: you and I did an episode about Nazi summer camps 1257 01:17:41,280 --> 01:17:44,240 Speaker 1: in the United States that kind of is adjacent to 1258 01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,400 Speaker 1: this story and folds in a lot of the reasons 1259 01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:50,320 Speaker 1: that the House on American Committee was created and some 1260 01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,439 Speaker 1: of the kind of tensions that were simmering here in 1261 01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,439 Speaker 1: the United States. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good call 1262 01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,679 Speaker 1: as well. Not I would go one further and say 1263 01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:04,479 Speaker 1: that we have future episodes about Forgotten Wars. You know, 1264 01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:07,760 Speaker 1: as as Jonathan pointed out, a lot of people aren't 1265 01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:11,559 Speaker 1: familiar with US activity and Haiti especially during that time, 1266 01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:16,120 Speaker 1: as well as the Philippines and Panama and all, I 1267 01:18:16,160 --> 01:18:20,240 Speaker 1: mean all these other places that we touched on, right right, Uh, 1268 01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:22,920 Speaker 1: So we are going to talk a little bit more 1269 01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:24,880 Speaker 1: about that. In the future you can check out our 1270 01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:28,679 Speaker 1: earlier work we have done. But before you do any 1271 01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,920 Speaker 1: of that, we want to make sure that you know 1272 01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,679 Speaker 1: how to contact us, you know how to make your 1273 01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:37,920 Speaker 1: voice heard. As long as the fragile democracy of this 1274 01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:43,880 Speaker 1: podcast stands, it must stand, and this aggression will not stand. Um. 1275 01:18:43,960 --> 01:18:46,120 Speaker 1: But you can find us, in fact, all over the 1276 01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:49,840 Speaker 1: Internet the usual places of note, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or 1277 01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:54,040 Speaker 1: we exist under the handle at conspiracy stuff. If you're 1278 01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:55,960 Speaker 1: more of an Instagram person, you can find us another 1279 01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,240 Speaker 1: handle at conspiracy Stuff. Show big things popping over on 1280 01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:02,400 Speaker 1: the Instagram front in the very near future, so keep 1281 01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:05,080 Speaker 1: an eye. I I have a feeling before very much longer, 1282 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:07,400 Speaker 1: you're going to see more than just a see of 1283 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,679 Speaker 1: new show graphics and uh and some more fun stuff coming. 1284 01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:15,840 Speaker 1: It's no spoilers. Reminder of our Facebook group here's where 1285 01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:17,760 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. If you do want to join, all 1286 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,160 Speaker 1: you have to do is write one of our names, 1287 01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,439 Speaker 1: a couple of our names, just the people who host 1288 01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,439 Speaker 1: the show or make this show, including Paul, Mission Control, 1289 01:19:25,479 --> 01:19:28,120 Speaker 1: decond uh. And if you don't want to use social 1290 01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:32,200 Speaker 1: media at all, you can instead call us. That's correct. 1291 01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:36,120 Speaker 1: If the spirit so moves you. Uh, you need to 1292 01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:38,840 Speaker 1: contact us, but you do not sip the social meeds. 1293 01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,000 Speaker 1: Just give us a call. Say it with me one 1294 01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:45,120 Speaker 1: eight three three st d W y t K. You 1295 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,960 Speaker 1: will have three minutes. Those three minutes are yours and 1296 01:19:48,080 --> 01:19:53,200 Speaker 1: yours alone. Give yourself fantastic nickname, a code name and alias, 1297 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,560 Speaker 1: so Monika on A k A. Tell us what's on 1298 01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,400 Speaker 1: your mind, tell us if we can use your name 1299 01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:02,559 Speaker 1: and or voice on air, and most importantly, do not 1300 01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,360 Speaker 1: censor yourself. If you have something that we and your 1301 01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:08,280 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists need to know and it's going to 1302 01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:11,280 Speaker 1: take more than three minutes to explain, you can skip 1303 01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:14,040 Speaker 1: the phone call entirely and just send us an email. 1304 01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,519 Speaker 1: Write the whole thing out. We read every email we 1305 01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,599 Speaker 1: get at our good old fashioned address where we are 1306 01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:41,639 Speaker 1: conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't 1307 01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:44,200 Speaker 1: want you to know is a production of I Heart Radio. 1308 01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,760 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1309 01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,760 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1310 01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:50,599 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.