1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 2: It's just us and that's okay because we are going 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: to do our best today pronouncing Chinese words, which is 5 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 2: always a laugh riot. If you're a fan of the. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: Podcast, Yeah, you can take those, my friend, because I'm 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: meant to look up the pronunciations and I didn't get 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: a chance to. But this topic about the four pests 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: campaign comes to you from listener, actually non listener, Emily Bryant, 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: my wife, No nice. She gave me the idea and 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: I was like, oh yeah, I looked into a little bit. 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, this will be good. 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: That's funny. I wondered if you had thought of it 14 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 2: because of you killing the cockroach recently on air. 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: No, but I do have to say you judge me 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: pretty hard on the cockroach, and while just very casually 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: talking about how much you would kill a mosquito and 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: ticks and flees, but oh not the cockroach, Chuck. 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: No, was I a little harsh? 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, you weren't harsh, but I was like, 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: wait a minute, you're killing three out of fourties and 22 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: acting like you're, you know, gods get the insects. 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, my boundaries apply to all. Yeah, okay, we're not 24 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: talking about cockroaches yet, we're talking about rats, mosquitoes, flies. 25 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 2: I have an issue with rats, but I get where 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: they're coming from. And sparrows. These were the four pests 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 2: that made up of the Four Pests campaign carried out 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: at the end of the fifties beginning of the nineteen 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: sixties in communist China, which newspapers at the time called 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: Red China. And it was an enormously successful communist eradication 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: campaign that was bent on controlling nature. And did it 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: ever work. 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean successful in one way, very destructive in another. 34 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: And we'll get to all that. Obviously, we're talking about 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: the leader at the time, mal Zedong, And this had 36 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: was not the first time something like this had been tried, 37 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: and it's been tried since then over there as well. 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: In the nineteen twenties and thirties. In China, they had 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: fly killing campaigns. In mid nineteen twenties, it was a 40 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: fly campaign such that the Southeast University in Nanjing was 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: it was very effective and they were you know, this 42 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: is very much like anecdotal, like there were practically no 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: flies there all summer. Yeah, but apparently it worked pretty good. 44 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: And then they did this at other times in the 45 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and thirties where they were incentivized, like middle 46 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 1: schoolers to go out and kill flies and bring them 47 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: in and show them to their teachers and like a 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: little matchbox, let's say, and things like that. But apparently 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: that resulted in more than ten million dead flies. So 50 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: there was precedent in China for doing stuff like this. 51 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so much so that I actually saw a contemporaneous 52 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: newspaper account that was talking about the Four Pests campaign 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: when it kicked off, and the newspapers is an American 54 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: newspaper just kind of chied it and said the fact 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: that they're having to include flies belies the boasts that 56 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: there were no flies in China. So apparently after these 57 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: eradication campaigns, I told the rest of the world, we 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: don't have flies anymore, suckers, because we get rid of it. 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 2: We takes care of business, I think, is how they 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: put it. 61 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Four Pests that we need to sort of 62 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: set the stage because it's kind of rooted in the 63 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: Great Leap Forward and that was a very ambitious campaign 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty eight January nineteen fifty eight that had 65 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: a lot of initiatives, but the real goal, the kind 66 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: of stated goal, was to industrialize and to overtake the 67 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: UK's industrial output in less than fifteen years, mainly in 68 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: There are lots of ways they wanted to do this, 69 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: but mainly to outdo them and steel production. 70 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just a quick reminder, the UK is where 71 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: the industrial revolution began. So this was beyond ambitious for China, 72 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: especially from the place that they were coming from. So 73 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: MAO was extremely ambitious, I guess. And to do something 74 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: like this that required really huge, sweeping changes and for 75 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: them to happen immediately. You weren't transitioning into anything. It 76 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: was stop doing this and start doing this. 77 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, like stop farming and build a steel furnace in 78 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: your backyard and start smelting. Was tried new weird sort 79 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: of farming techniques that weren't tested. It was. It was 80 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: a pretty enthusiastic campaign, you know, from the people, just 81 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: how they received it and how they got into it. 82 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: Apparently that farmers sometimes or people would just work late 83 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: into the night and they called it catching the moon 84 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: and stars and public officials were they would issue these 85 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: steel and grain quotas to like, you know, make as 86 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: much steel and grow as much grain as you could. 87 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,799 Speaker 1: But they were very unrealistic quotas. They were not able 88 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: to fulfill those, and in that time, with you know, 89 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: this sort of idealistic, authoritative approach to government, they were 90 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: over reporting output. And as we'll see, that kind of 91 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: happened again with a four pest campaign. 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was an enormous problem that China ran into, 93 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: and almost immediately after they began the four Pest campaign, 94 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: and even though they were kind of parallel to one another, 95 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: they were definitely intertwined at least to some degree. Right, Yeah, 96 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: So the four Pest campaign itself, you might say, like, Okay, 97 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: China's trying to industrialize and catch up to the UK, 98 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: who cares about flies and sparrows? And it turns out 99 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: that Mao cared a lot about flies and sparrows and 100 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: other pests. He and I've noticed this before, and a 101 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: lot of the stuff he talked about, he almost had 102 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: like a contempt for nature and a real like inner 103 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: desire to dominate nature and bend it to human will, 104 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: to his will. At least he had a slogan called 105 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: man Must Conquer Nature. Yeah, pretty on the nose, right, Yeah. 106 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 2: And also apparently he was quoted back in nineteen fifty 107 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: eight that he wanted to make the high mountain bow 108 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: its head, make the river yield the way, and so 109 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: this really kind of tied these eradication campaigns. And make 110 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: no mistake, the point was to get rid of every fly, 111 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,679 Speaker 2: every rat, every mosquito, and every sparrow in all of China. 112 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: So this eradication campaign really kind of fit into that 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: viewpoint that he held. 114 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, So there was some megalomania involved, for sure, 115 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: but it definitely had genuine roots and amibition to be 116 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: to get rid of disease, to stop these contagions from spreading, 117 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: because they were out of a decade in the nineteen 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: forties where they had smallpox and cholera and malaria and 119 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: the infant mortality rate was like thirty percent. So there 120 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: was definitely you know, they reacted with these big, large 121 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: scale vaccination drives, sanitation initiatives, but getting rid of these 122 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: pests they thought could get rid of the things that 123 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: were causing these diseases to begin with. Yeah, and getting 124 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: rid of these pests, and three of the cases would 125 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: get rid of these diseases to begin with. In the 126 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: case of sparrows, they're not spreading disease, but he sparrows 127 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: are grain thieves. They eat grain, and so they had 128 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: these wild estimates that sparrows could, like the food they 129 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: lost to grain by sparrows could feed up to sixty 130 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: thousand people. So that's why they were on the list. 131 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: Yes, somehow they calculated that each sparrow stole in eight 132 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: about four and a half kilograms a year, which equals 133 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: to about ten pounds, which is a staging amount of 134 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 2: grain for one single bird to steal from, like right 135 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: out of the Chinese people's mouths. So that was why 136 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: sparrow's were on there. You might have been sitting here 137 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 2: the whole time, going, what are you talking about with 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: sparrow's the little bird, They're the greatest of all birds potentially, 139 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: why would you want to kill sparrows? And sparrows just 140 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: got wrapped up into this big drag night essentially. 141 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, along with other birds by accident, of course. 142 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so the whole thing was essentially like an adopt 143 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: a mile program, except with killing animals. 144 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they had sanitation teams that people would 145 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: organize in communities. They would go out together and hunt rats. 146 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: They encourage kids, of course to do this, but just individually, 147 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: they were encouraging people like, hey, kill every mosquito you 148 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: can find, kill every fly that comes near you. It's 149 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: your patriotic duty to do so. They would incentivize and 150 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: reward people sometimes, but usually it was just like, this 151 00:08:58,559 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: is something you need to get on board with. 152 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 2: Make us all healthier, exactly, And going back to that 153 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 2: infant mortality rate, talking about making them healthier, like, this 154 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: is where they were coming from. That thirty percent. The 155 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: way that it's expressed typically is number of deaths per 156 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: one thousand berths, So that's three hundred deaths per one 157 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: thousand berths. So this was an staggering infant mortality rate 158 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: that they were dealing with, and it kind of drives 159 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 2: home like, Okay, this was even more ambitious than it 160 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: seems on its face, because not only are they trying 161 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: to leap forward, they're really having to come from a 162 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 2: deficit to even begin to leap. 163 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And of course in communists China, how 164 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: are you going to get this ball rolling through government propaganda? 165 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: It was a big, big part of mobilizing people to 166 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: do this stuff. They had posters just sort of encouraging 167 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: people to kill the pest. They would say things like 168 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: it would lead to happiness for ten thousand generations. They 169 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: would also have posters like positive ones like here's what 170 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: our future is going to look like with like farms 171 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: that are flourishing and industry that is doing great, and 172 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: all you have to do is is kill these pests. 173 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: It even filtered down to the level of children. They 174 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: had like children's songs and kids books talking about killing sparrows. 175 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they did absolutely everything right to change people's views 176 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: on sparrows so thoroughly, because before they hadn't been seen 177 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: as pests until those grain estimates came in. 178 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're sparrows exactly. 179 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 2: So I believe the Chinese in up to nineteen fifty 180 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: eight fifty nine viewed sparrows pretty normally, and then all 181 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: of a sudden, the whole country was like, yes, well, 182 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: we'll kill sparrows, no problem, because that propaganda campaign was 183 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: so effective. 184 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they had they filled out the questionnaire how do 185 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: you view sparrows A favorably B not favorably? See don't 186 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: really have an opinion. 187 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: And everybody said not favorably anymore. 188 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: So we should give the old grain of salt here. 189 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: As far as the numbers we're about to start talking about, 190 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: it is very hard for a few reasons, as it's 191 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: communists China, so any statistics need to have the grain 192 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: of salt that they put out. And also we're talking 193 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: about killing individual flies and mosquitos, so it's just really 194 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: tough to quantify that. 195 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 2: Yes, but as we'll get to in a minute, I 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 2: tried to quantify it, and I think I did a 197 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: great job. 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: Oh boy, does that mean there's going to be some 199 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: Josh maths. 200 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, aces of Josh math You ready? 201 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? Wait? 202 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well let's just jump to that. Okay, Okay, we'll 203 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: come back to rats in a second. But flies, let's 204 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: talk about flies. One of the reasons flies were chosen 205 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: because they transfer all sorts of diseases because they like 206 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 2: to hang out on poop, and then they like to 207 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: go hang out on food that people eat. One of 208 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: the big problems, one of the big problem diseases that 209 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: they spread as cholera, which is not fun and it 210 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 2: spreads very easily. So flies were targeted in two hundred 211 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: and twenty million pounds of flies were killed. 212 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, I have a question, I got it. Interrupt. Okay, 213 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: are you about to say that you found out the 214 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: weight of an average fly to find the total number 215 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: of flies out of that two hundred and twenty million pounds? Yes, amazing? 216 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: You ready? 217 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? 218 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: First of all, I have to shout out being and 219 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: it's ai. When I said how much is how many 220 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: flies are in one pound? I guess I actually put 221 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: one to two pounds. I tried to take the shortcut. 222 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: Bing comes back with one to two pounds of flies. 223 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: Biomass equals one to two pounds of flies. Say thanks 224 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: for the help, Bing. So I had to sledge forward 225 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: and do it myself. So I looked up how much 226 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: a house fly weighs. I saw fifty milligrams. I saw 227 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: ten milligrams. Okay, So if you divide that per pound, 228 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: that equals nine thousand flies per pound. Okay, it also 229 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: equals more. I'll get to that in a second. But 230 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: that so nice. So at fifty milligrams a fly, which 231 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: is way high, that's nine thousand flies per pound. Types 232 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty million pounds of flies equals one 233 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: point nine to eight trillion flies that were killed in 234 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: just a couple of years. Mind boggling. Right, we'll get this. 235 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 2: If you adjust to a fly weighing ten milligrams, the 236 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: ables almost the equals almost ten trillion flies that were 237 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: killed in China over the course of this four pest campaign. 238 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: Just a few years. 239 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: Ten trillion flies. That's that's the numbers I'm coming up with. Guys. 240 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: That's amazing. And this wasn't a bit. I genuinely didn't 241 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: know that Josh was going to do that, but I 242 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: saw the riding on the wall. As soon as I 243 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: knew that it was pounds of flies, I was like, 244 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: I know he's going to figure out total flies. 245 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't go ahead and convert it into 246 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: big max, which I feel a little bit about, but 247 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: you know, I still feel like I did a good job. 248 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: All right. That's amazing. Rats they carry a disease called 249 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: scistos somiasis. I probably mispronounced that, but that is something 250 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: that can kill you with organ failure, can give you cancer. 251 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: Rats also stole grain, and apparently they would drive these 252 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: rats out of their holes, kill them, and allegedly get 253 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: the grain out of their heidi holes. And feed that 254 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: to livestock is supposedly what happened. 255 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: That's vengeance right there. You actually take the grain that 256 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: the rats stole back. Yeah, something else. So one point 257 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: five billion rats were killed? 258 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: How many pounds of brat is it? You got to 259 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: reverse engineer it? 260 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: So I would say about point seven a billion point 261 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: seven billion pounds of rats. 262 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to go mean that I've seen New York rats. 263 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if Chinese rats hold a candle beds 264 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: those New York rats. Those suckers can weigh several pounds. 265 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: I feel like, oh several pounds. Yeah, yeah, so I 266 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: stand by my estimate. Let's say point nine because not 267 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: all of them are going to weigh two pounds. 268 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: I love a rat, by the way. 269 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. I'm not fully on board. I 270 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: get rats really easily spread a lot of disease in 271 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: they had wow throughout human history. Rats themselves don't I 272 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: don't think are problematic and like individually. 273 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: Like the pet rat, Give me that little guy and 274 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: let me scratch it under the chin. 275 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: Super sweet. Yeah, so yeah, a lot of rats died. Again, 276 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: the reason why they targeted rats is not just from 277 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: spreading disease. But also they stole that grain too. They 278 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: estimated that rats stole way more than sparrows, at about 279 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: nine kilograms or twenty pounds per rat per year. So 280 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 2: the writing was on the wall for rats. 281 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: They were well, mosquitos, no one likes. They spread malaria, 282 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: which is a bad problem. Obviously everyone knows that mosquitos, 283 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, hosts their larvae and wet things and puddles 284 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: and spare tires and things like that still waters. So 285 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: citizens where they were like, hey, dredge your rivers, fill 286 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: your fill these watery ditches up with dirt, don't let 287 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: water collect. Get rid of those feet breeding grounds. They also, 288 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: and this is pretty remarkable, they fish and ducks to 289 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: specifically feed on their larva, which is pretty impressive. And 290 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: then you know, obviously swatting them is one way, but 291 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: lots of awful, harmful insecticides just being sprayed everywhere. 292 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is our requisite reminiscence of the mosquito fogging 293 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 2: truck driving down the street at night in your neighborhood 294 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: in the summer. You remember that. 295 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't have those because we didn't live in neighborhoods, 296 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: but I knew they existed. 297 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were something. Even back then in the seventies 298 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: and eighties, it was like, well, you need to steer 299 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: clear of those. They just looked ominous. 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. The very first opening shots of my beloved documentary Vernon, 301 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: Florida is a mosquito truck going through the town. 302 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: Oh boy. Yeah, so they killed as far as China 303 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: estimates twenty four million pounds of mosquitoes or four point 304 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: three five four trillion mosquitos over the course of this campaign. 305 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: Hey, aside from the insecticide, I say hats off to 306 00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: that one. 307 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember we talked about it before, if not in 308 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: an episode, then on like Internet roundup, where there was 309 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: a geneticist or a molecular biologist maybe who's like, hey, 310 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, I figured out a way so that we 311 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: can get rid of mosquitos forever in just a few 312 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: generations if we adjust this gene and release these genetically 313 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 2: modified mosquitos into the wild, and like it would have worked. 314 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: And everyone was like, you know, I don't know if 315 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: we should do that. Mosquitos might be providing some service 316 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: that we're just not aware of. It just seems wrong 317 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: or dumb to just eradicate them all. And so we 318 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: didn't pull the trigger on it, but some I think, 319 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: like Yukon or something. Professor had figured out exactly how 320 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: to do it. 321 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, but didn't they also come back and say like no, 322 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: like we have yet to find any like if mosquitos 323 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: were removed, there's no domino effect in the insect chain, 324 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: like they could really go away and everyone would be fine. 325 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: Yes, I do remember that too, And before you can 326 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: say anything else, to say, we take a break. 327 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: That sounds great, great. 328 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: Thanks man, I appreciate the support. 329 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: All right. So the fourth I know you were just 330 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: waiting with baited breath about sparrows. They again weren't considered 331 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: pest before the Great Leap Forward, which kind of preceded this. 332 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: But he had a very mouth, had a very effective 333 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: anti pest campaign going, so people bought into it, and 334 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: they would kill them. They would crush their little eggs. 335 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 1: They would like firecrackers and throw them at them. They 336 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: would destroy their nests. They would scare set up, scarecrows 337 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: or scare sparrows and fields and then shoot them dead. 338 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: But apparently the most popular, far and away the most 339 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: popular method is that they would just make such a 340 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: racket in the streets banging pots and pans and yelling 341 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: and screaming that the sparrows would fly until they tired 342 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: and then would just drop down from the sky. 343 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: Right but not dead. The people have to kill for them, 344 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 2: would go kill them by hand, usually squire storm or 345 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: break their necks or something like that. And guys, if 346 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 2: you are not familiar with sparrows, and you are not 347 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: driving right now, go look up sparrows. They're the little 348 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: cute brown birds that hop around outside on the cafe patio, 349 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 2: not bothering anybody, just being cute. These are the birds 350 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: that the people of China were killing by hand in 351 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty one. 352 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, of finchy looking just they're very very cute. 353 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: Oh wow, for cute. I'm actually seeing a one of 354 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: those propaganda posters right now that has a rat, a sparrow, 355 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: a mosquito, and a fly impaled on a Chinese sword. 356 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 2: Yes, that works. That makes me want to kill a sparrow. 357 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: It's kind of a really sweet poster actually, but I 358 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: just don't like the message. 359 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, So as you can bet like this 360 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: led to the near extinction of sparrows in just a 361 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: few years. 362 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: So here's the problem is with the sparrows. Sparrows eat locusts, 363 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: and locusts are a true pest. So without the sparrows, 364 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: the locusts really really thrived. It turns out that sparrows 365 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: are a very crucial part of maintaining that ecosystem, and 366 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: without them there were no natural predators for the locusts, 367 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: and they ballooned and the crops were devastated. I think 368 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: the World Atlas estimated that the locusts were ponssible for 369 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: destroying hundreds of thousands of pounds of grain because of. 370 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 2: This, right, So that was I mean, that equals a 371 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 2: lot of crop yield, even in China with all of 372 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: the arable land that they have. And so if you're 373 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: familiar with Chinese history, especially in the late fifties to 374 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties, you know what's coming. The Great Famine of China. 375 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: It lasted from nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty one, 376 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: and it is far and away the most devastating famine 377 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: in the history of humanity as far as recorded history goes. Yeah, 378 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: estimates run from fifteen million to up to seventy eight million, 379 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: and I saw reasonable people estimating it was actually between 380 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 2: twenty and fifty million people who starved to death from 381 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: just nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty one in China. 382 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 2: That's how bad the famine was. And some people tie 383 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 2: that back to at least in part, the four Pest 384 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: campaign and the effect of removing sparrows from the ecosystem. 385 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean there was many reports and 386 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: instances of suicide, apparently cannibalism, people murdering each other to 387 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: get to their food. It got really really bad. There 388 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: was also it was also while it was happening, Mal 389 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: refused to acknowledge that it was happening, like there is 390 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: no famine. It was after everyone died, like a year 391 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: later that Mal finally admitted that a famine had occurred, 392 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: which is like everyone knows there's a famine going on. 393 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: So that's like the ultimate sort of gas lighting when 394 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: your leaders not even acknowledging that. But he didn't accept, 395 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, he blamed it on rightists and their failure 396 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: to implement his policies correctly. 397 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: From what I could tell, I did not see how 398 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 2: much he actually was aware. Part of the issue was 399 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: how just ensconced and insulated he was from bad news 400 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 2: because all of the people under him, and all the 401 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: people under those people were afraid of being beaten in 402 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: and murdered for giving Maw bad news essentially, so he 403 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: might have really not realized just how bad things will be. 404 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: I bet you can't lose fifty million people though, and 405 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: not just notice like traffic's better. 406 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: Well, the that's the other thing too. Most of the 407 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 2: deaths were in the rural areas. They were not in 408 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: the cities. A lot of people in the cities were 409 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: probably hard up, but they were not starving to death. 410 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: It was the people in the countryside. And a lot 411 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 2: of that had to do with terrible, terrible policies that 412 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 2: were on top of a bunch of other issues that 413 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: all kind of came together to exacerbate this famine and 414 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 2: make it as bad as it was. 415 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're going to talk about those because you know, 416 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone maintains that it was just the 417 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: sparrows that caused this famine, right or you know, and 418 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: people to die at the rates of tens of millions. 419 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: But there there were a few factors. One was obviously 420 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: environmental factors. In nineteen fifty nine, there was a drought 421 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: in northern China, and rain and flooding in southern and 422 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: eastern China, and all of these natural disasters were kind 423 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: of happening at the same time, which are going to 424 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: affect the grain output. Led to a lot of grain deficit. 425 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: I think in nineteen fifty nine, fifty five percent, like 426 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: more than half of their farmland was unusable, and in 427 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty their wheat harvest was down seventy percent. 428 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a staple crop. I mean, that's the 429 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: kind of crop that you keep your people alive with, 430 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: is wheat, Right, So that was a big deal. There's 431 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: another one that may or may not have been true, 432 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: but I know that Mao blamed the Soviet Union on 433 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: the famine or making it as bad as it was, 434 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 2: and that supposedly the Soviet Union called in their debts 435 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: during this famine that the relations between Communist China and 436 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: Communist USSR had deteriorated right around this time, and so 437 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 2: just basically to well it be jerks, the USSR said, hey, 438 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: you know that money you owes, we need it right now. 439 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: I saw that that's not necessarily the case. And someone 440 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: said that the Soviet Union may have even offered for 441 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: them to stop making payments for the Chinese to stop 442 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: making payments to the USSR for three years during this famine. 443 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's true or not, but that 444 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: is a long standing talking point that came out of China. 445 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: At the end of the famine, when mal finally did 446 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: admit that it had happened, he blamed it in part on. 447 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: The USSR, Yeah, for sure. Another part was what we 448 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: kind of mentioned earlier with the Great Leap Forward, was 449 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: that push for industrialization, and not just a push, but 450 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: it's such a rapid pace that they completely upended kind 451 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: of the way things had been such that it was devastating. 452 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 1: They you know, if all of a sudden everyone is 453 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: led away from farming and producing steel in their backyard, 454 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: you're just going to have less grain planned to begin with. 455 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: And the other sort of irony to this is this 456 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: wasn't even good steel. That they were getting people making 457 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: steel in their backyards out of flatwear and pots and 458 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: pans just gets you pig iron. It didn't result in 459 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: anything that they could use for like big time construction. 460 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a huge one. I mean they were 461 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: also not trained, right, They just basically said, hey, create 462 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: a backyard smelting furnace, and here's your quota for steel 463 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: every month or quarter a year, go figure it out. Essentially, 464 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 2: So not only were they paying less attention to farming, 465 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: they were also spending more time trying to figure this out. 466 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: And then, like you said, we're unsuccessful. That was, from 467 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 2: what I saw, one of the biggest exacerbators of this 468 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: whole problem, because it reduced the crop output so drastically 469 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: that there was just not enough food to go around, 470 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: not even close to it, because people simply stopped farming 471 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 2: as much. 472 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at the same time, they had quotas on 473 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: that grain. So even though they were saying, hey, go 474 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: quit growing things, make steel in the backyard, but also 475 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: we're going to raise the quotas on grain at the 476 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 1: same time to unprecedented levels basically, and of course they're 477 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: not going to meet those quotas. So party members were 478 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: afraid of being blamed kind of like what you were 479 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: talking about, and covering up this deficit. And if you 480 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: did try to report, you know, accurate numbers, you might 481 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: be beaten and detained or tortured. And so they thought 482 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: they had a grain surplus, so they end up exporting 483 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: grain when they were short on grain to feed their 484 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: own people because they thought they had a surplus. 485 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: Yes, and not only would they export it. The grain 486 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: surplus was considered what the cities needed to survive, or 487 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: however much they needed to eat. They didn't calculate grain 488 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: surpluses based on what percentage of how much was grown. 489 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: It was the city's need this much. It doesn't matter 490 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: how much that leaves you peasant, because we're feeding the cities. 491 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: That's what we're interested in doing. And so that's why 492 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: I was saying most of the starvation happened in the countryside, 493 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 2: whereas the cities managed to survive, and I think that 494 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: that probably gave an impression that there wasn't actually a 495 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: famine going on. You had to go out into the 496 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: rural areas for that to happen. And then dissenters, people 497 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: who might speak up or criticize or whatever, were actually 498 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: tortured to death, beaten to death, murdered by the state. 499 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: And I think that someone estimated that there was between 500 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: six to eight percent of the deaths of the potentially 501 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: fifty million deaths during the entire Great Leap Forward were 502 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 2: caused by torture, and those were mostly peasants. 503 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: Six to eight percent. That's amazing. 504 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, being tortured to death for basically speaking up about 505 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: being left distarved to death essentially. 506 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: All right, I say we take another break and we 507 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: come back and talk about the legacy of this and 508 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: whether or not those sparrows made it come back in 509 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: China right after. 510 00:28:50,280 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 2: This, okay, Chuck. So finally, finally, after a relatively short time, 511 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 2: China realized like, we should probably leave the sparrows alone again. 512 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: This was right before they became extinct in China, and 513 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: it was as recent or as soon as nineteen sixty. 514 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: I think the whole campaign started in nineteen fifty eight, right, 515 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: so just two to three years they were like, oh god, 516 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: this is not going well. So they took the sparrows 517 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 2: off and they said, bedbugs, you're up. And the bedbugs said, gulp. 518 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: Can I kill a bedbug with your permission? 519 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? I've gotten a problem with killing bed bugs. I 520 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: don't know much about them. I just know that they're 521 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 2: very much disliked and they're hard to get rid of, 522 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: so why not? 523 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah, they swapped out sparrows for bed bugs. Eventually 524 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: they would add cockroaches to that list. Much to your chagrin, 525 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: but they did study sort of the initial years of 526 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: the four pest campaign. They did study what was going 527 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: on with the sparrows and you know, whether or not 528 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: it was making a difference, and they're eating habits and 529 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: things like that. And in nineteen sixty, I guess, I 530 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: don't know if this is right before or right after 531 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: it ended, but they reported like, hey, we were sort 532 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: of mistaken in our initial estimates. It turns out they 533 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: aren't eating as much grain as we thought. They actually 534 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: eat insects, Like seventy five percent of their diet consists 535 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: of insects and about twenty five percent is grain. And 536 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: this one researcher collected along with his colleagues, collected a 537 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: bunch of sparrows to study and found that, hey, they 538 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: they're seasonal grain eaters. On top of that, so during 539 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: the winter is the only time they're feeding on these 540 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: grain seeds. Otherwise they're generally eating pests that keep us, 541 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, keep our harvest more safe. 542 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: Right exactly. I think that that was the the research 543 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: by zeng Zujin, pretty sure, it's as close as I 544 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: can get. His research was what led to the sparrows 545 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: being taken off of the Four Pest campaign. 546 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: That's right. 547 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: So China realized the error of their ways and they 548 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: took sparrows off. But not only did they do that, 549 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 2: they started reintroducing them by importing them from the Soviet 550 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: Union to try to bring the sparrow population back, and slowly, 551 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: over the years it did bounce back. They're no longer extinct, 552 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: and there's hundreds of millions of them in China today, 553 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: but that's still far less than there was before the 554 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: Four Pest campaign. Part of the way that they have 555 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: been able to come back is China outlawed talk about 556 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: like just getting mixed messages here, kind of outlawed killing 557 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: sparrows after they took them off the four Pest list 558 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: and had said, go kill hundreds of millions of sparrows. 559 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, driving from the sky with pots and pans, break 560 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: their cute little necks. And then a year later, actually, 561 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: you're going to go to jail if you killed more 562 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: than twenty of them. It's a criminal offense. 563 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that crazy? That's life under an authoritarian government Tata. 564 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. They've there's been, you know, different sort 565 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: of versions of the Four Pest campaign over the years. 566 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: That's continued. I know we mentioned the bed bugs. I 567 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: think that was in the nineteen sixties. In nineteen starting 568 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: in the eighties, rats came back on the scene as 569 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: far as you know, a big pest to eradicate. And 570 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: then in nineteen ninety eight there was a full sort 571 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: of reboot. Let's go back to the four pest campaign, 572 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: remember that that TV show we all love back then, 573 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: let's reboot it and new propaganda posters in nineteen ninety eight, 574 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: like kind of like the old style instill. But this 575 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: is when they added the cockroaches, so it was flies, mosquitos, rats, 576 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: and cocker roaches. 577 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 2: And that nineteen eighties rat eradication campaign was very successful. 578 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty four alone, trying to kill an estimated 579 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 2: five percent of the entire global rat population. They killed 580 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 2: so many rats one year. 581 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they were paying citizens in as late 582 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: as two thousand and seven to kill individual flies in 583 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: certain places. 584 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think in twenty twenty four they started 585 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 2: another mosquito campaign, anti mosquito campaign to try to create 586 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: the mosquito free village. So not bad, I mean, considering 587 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: that they got rid of malaria back in what year. 588 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: Was that I think they I think they finally wasn't 589 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: it like twenty twenty one, they finally said they were 590 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: malaria free. 591 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 2: Yes, so it did have some positive effects at least 592 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 2: as far as the stupid mosquito go. But the Great Famine, 593 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: which you just can't talk about the four Pest campaign 594 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: without talking about the Great Famine because they were tied 595 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: together in some ways. For sure. They did a study, 596 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 2: I think two different studies in twenty twenty three on 597 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: the effects the Great Famine had on people who survived it, 598 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: and they found that there are definite differences between people 599 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 2: who lived through the Great Famine and people who didn't. 600 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that was a higher rate of non 601 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: communicable diseases We're talking diabetes, cancer, psychiatric problems even yea 602 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: than the general population, and may have also caused a 603 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: decline in the male birth rate all the way through 604 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: the early nineteen sixties. 605 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really ironic considering the one child policy, 606 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,959 Speaker 2: you know, Yeah for sure, Yeah, which I guess either 607 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: as ironic because of the one child policy or led 608 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: to the one child policy. Yeah, you got anything else? 609 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: I got nothing else? Four Pests is over. 610 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. I had tip to Emily for coming up with 611 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: that and one little line yap is obnoxious, people call it. 612 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 2: If you want to know what they call sparrows in China, 613 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: they call them macha. 614 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: I've never heard of lon yap. 615 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: Sure you have. I've made that joke before and you 616 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 2: thought it was hilarious. Really yeah, it's like an extra 617 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: little something, like an extra little treat. I heard it 618 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: on like the Splendid Table once they used it seriously 619 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: where they were talking about how the bottom of an 620 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: ice cream cone is filled with a little bit of 621 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: chocolate to keep the ice cream from melting out the bottom. 622 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,240 Speaker 2: They called it a little line yap. 623 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: Huh. 624 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: That formed my impression of the word land yap from 625 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: that point forward. 626 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: So in that case, the cherry on top is the 627 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: chocolate on the bottom. 628 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: Chuck Wow, Wow, Well, I think obviously Chuck has brought 629 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: about listener mail. 630 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: This is joke or not, Josh, so you get to 631 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: answer this question. Had a few people right in, so 632 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: I think there was either some confusion of a joke 633 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: or maybe you just got something wrong. We'll see. Hey, guys, 634 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: the reason I'm writing is because I heard something in 635 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: the first Heavy Metal episode that I thought was a joke. 636 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: But after listening to the audio again and checking the 637 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: transcript even I'm wondering if it's just an error. And 638 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: it got through mainly because it was so deadpan. But seabuddy, Brian, 639 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: you can never tell with Josh because he can be 640 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: so deadpan. I've shown over and over and over that 641 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: I can't tell sometimes if he's joking. Here we go. 642 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: Josh explained that Black Sabbath got their name from the 643 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: Boris Karloff movie Black Sabbath, which is true, but the 644 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: film isn't about a talking boat winning a regatta for 645 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: a group of orphans. In the film, Karloff hosts three 646 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: different horror stories, but none are about a regatta or orphans. 647 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: Boris Karloff as an animated talking boat that saved orphans 648 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: would be amazing at any rate. Maybe I'm wrong and 649 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: Josh was joking and Chuck just missed it, or it 650 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: was explained to such and I miss it, but I 651 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:54,280 Speaker 1: wanted to pass it along. 652 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: Rock On. 653 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: That is from Brian and Brookline, New Hampshire. 654 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: Nice Brian, Rian, Brian, Thanks Brian, So what is it? 655 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: Uh? 656 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 2: Let me just walk us through a couple of points 657 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: real quick, and I think it'll become. 658 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: Clear, okay. 659 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: One is that Black Sabbath the band would name themselves 660 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: after a movie about a talking boat at windsor Regotta 661 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 2: for a group of orphans. 662 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:18,439 Speaker 1: Seems like a joke. 663 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 2: And secondly that a movie about a talking boat that 664 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 2: windsor Regatta for a group of orphans is called Black Sabbath. 665 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 2: It seems like totally. 666 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: Made okay, So is there a talking boat orphan movie 667 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: and you were just referencing that as a joke or 668 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: did you just completely whole cloth create that. 669 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 2: I made that up from whole cloth? I don't. I 670 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: don't think there's a movie like that. I could believe it, 671 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: but I've never heard of one. 672 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: Well, then, in that case, my friend, I give you 673 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: the improv a word for the month because that you 674 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: sold it and it was pretty great. 675 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. I appreciate that. That means the world to me. 676 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: I couldn't have made up such an outlandish movie plot 677 00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: on the on the off the dome like that. 678 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 2: Nice. Thank you, and thank you to Brian for bringing 679 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 2: that to Chuck's attention. I've been waiting a little while 680 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: and I'm glad we got a chance to go over it. 681 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: It's very satisfying. 682 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: It was very satisfying. If you want to be like 683 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 2: Brian and set us up for a satisfying conversation, we 684 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 2: love that kind of stuff. You can send us an 685 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 2: email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 686 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 687 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 688 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.