WEBVTT - Opening Up 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.080 Sex outside my marriage is maybe more playful. It has 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.400 new relationship energy with it. It's kind of like buyer 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:19.640 worky and crazy and like tickley and exciting. That's Alice 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.560 and she loves sex. Alice isn't her real name, but 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.000 everything else she told me is true. I generated a 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.400 lot of energy and a lot of joy from interacting 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.040 with other people, and that includes romantic land sexually. And 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.839 she loves to play and try new things. My sexual 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:39.960 needs and desires and my body is kind of like 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.720 this scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and there's dead 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.559 ends and you have to like find different things. But 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.879 she also very much loves her husband. He knows me 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.360 so well that he follows that map and it's amazing 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.160 and we can try anything together because we have so 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:00.280 much trust and so much safety in our relationship. Despite 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.160 how great things were with her husband, Alice just wasn't 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.240 getting everything she wanted sexually from him. She craved new bodies, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.039 new excitement, new experiences, and like many of the women 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.120 we've talked to in previous episodes, she decided to have 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.200 an affair to find what she wanted. But here's what's different. 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.360 After Alice had her first sexual encounter outside of her marriage. 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:27.120 She chose to tell her husband the truth, and then 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.319 she asked him if he'd be open to her doing 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:34.440 it again. I'm Joe Piazza and you're listening to She 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.480 Wants More, the podcast where real women talk openly and 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.520 honestly about the extra marital affairs that have completely changed 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.720 their lives. Open marriages have been coming up in a 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.800 lot of our recent conversations, and at first we debated 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.600 even talking about it. This is a podcast about affairs. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.960 It sex outside your marriage an affair If it isn't 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.920 a secret, is it secret part that makes the affair? 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.880 I don't actually know the answer to that. Actually. In 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.400 last week's episode, our expert Alexandra Fine, the sexologist and 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.960 founder of sex toy brand Dame, even shared that she's 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:19.200 in an open marriage. I'm in more of an open marriage. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.000 You form patterns and habits for a reason, and having 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.639 a new space to get to explore, to be different. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.640 I think that's how we're constantly refinding ourselves. Many of 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.640 our guests, including Wednesday Martin and doctor Ashley Thompson, have 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.200 even suggested that consensual non monogamy open marriages could be 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.080 a healthier way for women who are considering affairs to 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:46.240 get their sexual needs met without betraying someone. In recent years, 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.680 the stigma around open marriages seems to be lessening. Google 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.880 searches for terms like polyamory and non monogamy have increased 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.720 substantially since twenty sixteen, and I'm pretty sure that all 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:03.360 the ex positivity flooding our social media feeds is also 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:08.240 contributing to more curiosity on the subject. Younger people in particular, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.079 seemed to be especially receptive to the idea of it. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.960 A recent Tender study revealed that one fifth of gen 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.720 z users said that they would be open to considering polyamory. So, 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.560 could open marriages be the answer for some women who 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.239 are considering having an affair who are already having one? 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:29.360 Could open marriages be the answer for women who are 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.600 in a position of authority or privilege to be able 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.280 to ask for one. That is what I wanted to 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:41.120 find out. Before she met her husband, Alice never thought 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.880 that she'd get married or have a traditional monogamous relationship. 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.400 Leading up to dating my husband. I really wasn't in 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.520 any long term monogamous relationships. I saw a lot of 0:03:55.520 --> 0:04:00.320 relationships that had one partner. That was quite controlling. Saw 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.320 especially parents losing their identities to just be parents, and 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.760 like you didn't know who they were beyond being a parent. 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.720 They had no hobbies, they had nothing that they seemed 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:19.080 to be interested in, and so I just grew up 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.320 being these I basically felt like I saw the same 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.440 relationship over and over and over with my friends parents, 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.840 and seeing my friends and how they were dating, it 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:35.200 all just seemed not very much fun. It seemed like 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.040 people were losing themselves. I just knew that. The way 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.400 I understood it is I don't ever want to get married. 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:45.679 That doesn't make sense. But then Alice did meet her husband. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:51.800 We met through doing yoga together, and they just were 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.839 in the same circle of friends for a few months, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:59.600 and one day we in our circle of friends ended 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.719 up ending the whole day out together. And it was 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:08.080 interesting because it wasn't this like flare of oh, I'm 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.080 so attracted to this person and I need to have 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.080 them or I wonder what will happen. It was just 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.400 like friendship with like an peak of interest. And a 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.320 couple weeks later, we ended up in another event together 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.719 and we ended up staying out all night and because 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:24.599 we are having so much fun. We just kept going out. 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.799 And then the next day I was riding my bike 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.440 and talking to a friend and I said, I met 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.200 the person I'm going to marry, and I'm freaked out 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.039 because I don't believe in marriage and I am too 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.800 young for this, and I don't feel like this makes 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:41.840 sense at all, and yet I know I want to 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.400 and I'm going to marry this person. So you did it. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.880 You're just like, this is the person. It was just 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.919 really clear to me, and again was confusing because I 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.919 truly didn't believe in marriage. I'd never seen a super 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.039 successful marriage, at least not the way I wanted to 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.760 live my life. I didn't have a model of what 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:04.719 I thought I be as a wife. I'm also queer, 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.680 and so like the idea of like committing to this 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.679 one person, of this one gender felt like a lot 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.400 for me. And I had never been in a monogamous relationship, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.440 and I had an assumption that if I was with 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.240 this person, that's what that would mean as well. So 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.599 we dated and we felt very quickly for each other. 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.920 He felt similarly. He had been in a lot of 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.920 long term relationships, but just didn't feel the same as 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.599 this one for him. Within three months, we were already 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.800 talking about our future together. We were engaged within eight months, 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.200 and we were married within a year and a half 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.320 of our first date. Prior to getting married, had the 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:49.520 two of you discussed non monogamy. Not really, So within 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.479 a couple weeks of dating each other, I was traveling 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.120 and was visiting friends and I got this cryptic phone 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:02.640 call at like the middle of the night. That call 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:07.000 was from Alice's future husband, and he very urgently wanted 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.040 to know if she was sleeping with anyone else. He's like, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.600 I just need to know if we're monogamous. I was like, 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:15.200 I don't care, or do you want to be monogamous? 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.160 And he said yes, and I was like, all right, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.240 so we are. And so we had a discussion that 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.000 we should be monogamous. That was sort of our commitment moment, 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.720 I guess. So before they even got married, Alice had 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:31.280 to set some boundaries. She is this naturally affectionate person, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.280 the kind of person who likes to cuddle and hug 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.280 and be touchy with her friends. So it was very 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.560 important to her that she makes sure that her soon 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:42.880 to be husband was okay with her craving touch from 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:47.720 other people, and he was I could never have chosen 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.440 a partner who wasn't comfortable with that. I would have 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.520 never dated him if he wasn't comfortable with that. I 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.720 could never be in any sort of sustained relationship with 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:01.400 one person who didn't support touch outside of the relationship. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.560 But then a few years later, after they were married, 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:11.200 something very different happened, something that definitely crossed the line 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.160 of what they'd agreed to when they first got married. 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.280 Alice had sex with someone else and she knew that 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:23.160 it crossed the boundary. Instead of hiding it, Alice decided 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.600 to tell her husband what happened. After all, they had 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.920 already communicated in the past about touch and being affectionate 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.439 with others outside of their marriage, and that conversation had 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:38.280 gone okay. I told him pretty much the second after 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.040 it happened, like within you know, twelve hours have been happened, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.400 and he just noticed. He checked in with his feelings 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.280 and he said that he just didn't he didn't care, 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.440 like he didn't feel threatened by it. He knew it 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.160 wasn't about him. He felt like our relationship was strong, 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:56.439 and he didn't feel lied too, because I told him 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.720 pretty much the second after it happened. I really didn't 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.920 know what to expect when Alice said she told her 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.000 husband what happened twelve hours after she had sex with 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.439 someone else, anything could happened. But he was okay with it. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.959 He was okay with it because Alice didn't lie to him, 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:18.440 and so he and I then really had our first 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.920 conversation about what non monogamy is for me and for him. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:29.160 We had a conversation around limits and boundaries of what 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.800 feels safe for us, Like he personally wanted anogamy for himself, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.959 and he understands that what I need to feel fulfilled 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:44.559 is to be connecting to other people. I'm an extreme extrovert, 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:50.280 like I'm beyond the boundaries extroversion, and I generated a 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.680 lot of energy and a lot of joy from interacting 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.319 with other people, and that includes romantically and sexually. My 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.640 husband's more of an introvert. He likes a lot of 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.240 alone time, and so this actually balances our relationship better 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.320 because it fills this need that I have for a 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:10.160 lot of engagement, a lot of energy, a lot of attention, 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:15.719 a lot of touch. Like he really understood that, and 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.920 so it's been really important for me not to keep 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.640 things and not be in the shadows at any point 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:28.520 about my sexuality and my non monogamy, and he's been 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:33.000 really amazing and receptive through the years about it. Everybody 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:38.360 has different definitions of what are the boundaries in our relationship? 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.880 What does it mean to us to feel that we 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:45.640 can trust each other. That's doctor Laurie Gottlieb, psychotherapist and 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.800 New York Times bestselling author. If you remember we talked 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.240 to her in our episode about loneliness, We called her 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.040 up again to ask a few questions about boundaries, communication 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.719 and marriage. One of the things I really wanted to 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.880 know was whether doctor Gottlieb pop partners needed to talk 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:08.040 about their boundaries before they even got married. This is 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.880 why people come before marriage. People think, oh, they must 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.080 be having problems before they even got married because they're 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.400 going to therapy. No, people come all the time for 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.360 premarital therapy to talk about these kinds of things so 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:22.360 that they are on the same page about them, so 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.319 that they can at least open up the conversations and understand. 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.520 How do we talk about these things that can be 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.360 really challenging to talk about. I asked doctor Gottlieb if 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.480 it can be challenging for couples to talk to each 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.640 other because we don't always know what our boundaries are. 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.199 In fact, we might not even realize that a boundary 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.520 exists until it's been crossed, right. We don't until we 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:49.120 feel like one of them has been violated, and then 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:50.959 we say, oh, look what you did, and the other 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.960 person says, wait a minute, I didn't think I was 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.680 doing anything. Now, Sometimes they know they're doing something, so 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.520 sometimes it's a clear boundary violation, But there are many 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.920 times when two people have very different ideas about what 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:08.679 it means to be faithful to the other person. If 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.280 two people can have very different ideas about what it 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.960 means to be faithful, then does that mean that the 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:18.000 definition of an affair could be different for everyone. And 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.280 how do we define a betrayal in a marriage anyway? 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.760 Is it when something is a secret, when it's a lie, 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.720 or is it as simple as when there's a lack 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:33.160 of communication between partners. We'll be talking about all of 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.160 this as we learn even more about Alice's experience, as 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.560 well as how being intimate with other people actually ended 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:50.959 up helping her sex life with her husband. We're back, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.040 So talk to me a little bit about when you 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.679 first opened up the marriage on your end, what did 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:00.920 the two of you have to work through for this 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.520 to work, What boundaries had to be put in place, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:08.559 and what kinds of communication had to be put in place. Surprisingly, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.800 we didn't really have to work through much at all. 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.319 I am an incredibly busy person, and so it limits 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.640 how much time I have for anything outside of the 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.959 marriage anyway, which creates a boundary in and of itself. 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:26.679 I tend to have either very spontaneous random experiences like 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.000 at a play party or like a one night stand, 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:37.880 or sort of in depth long relationships with people that 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.560 I don't see that often and who are like maybe friendly, 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.360 who I also have a sexual relationship with. And so 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.600 it has never been threatening to the marriage because there 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.240 hasn't been a lot of like the in between where 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.520 I'm like dating somebody actively and needing to prioritize a 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.680 lot of time with that person. And the agreement that 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.800 my husband and I have is that if it takes 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.720 energy and time away from our family, or at any 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.920 point he doesn't feel like a priority, than it has 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.160 to end. We also have an agreement that if we're 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.240 not in a good place in our marriage, and we're 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:14.480 not connecting emotionally, physically really in any way. Like if 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:19.400 we feel estranged in some way, then we do not 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.520 explore outside the marriage at all. It's just like immediate lockdown. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.400 So a good example of that is like after I 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.720 gave birth, it was a really hard moment for me. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:36.120 I was working, going to school, breastfeeding, like momming, it 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:41.080 was so full on, and so just everything shut down 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:46.440 our marriage and our family sure quite a while. More recently, 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:51.040 we've been in conversation that involves more limits and boundaries 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.800 now that my kid is older and I have more time. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.720 And I use this word super lovingly, but I just 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.200 feel sluttier in the best of ways, and I feel 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.320 super embodied and like really high sex drive right now. 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:03.880 And so I want to be going out more and 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.400 meeting more people. And a lot of my friends are 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.320 in like Polly relationships, and so I am feeling much 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.760 more like amped up about going out. And so we 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.680 have had to have those conversations that you're talking about 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.560 that we didn't before. So limits and boundaries on like 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.280 what he feels comfortable with is regarding time some as 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.280 regarding sexual acts that he prefers I do or do 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.760 not share with other people. Most recently it's about kink 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:35.800 play with impact with people. I was playing with a 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.520 friend of mine and he bit my leg and I 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.040 had like a pretty gnarly bruise from it, and my 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:42.920 husband was upset because then he had to look at 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.240 it and it made him unhappy to look at a 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.400 bruise on my body. And I didn't mind. It was 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.320 playful and fun of the moment, and so I asked him. 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:52.960 I was like, do you want that to be a limit? 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:54.480 And he said, well, if you need it and it 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.120 turns you on, I don't want to tell, you know. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.160 And so we got into a little bit of this 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.760 like loop of me asking him, him saying, but I 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:02.520 don't want to restrict you. And it was like we 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.200 played around this thing for a little while until finally 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.000 he's like, yeah, I don't want you to be bruised, 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.280 and I'm like, well, that is no problem. That was 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.479 like a recent boundary. The other thing, and this has 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:15.680 been since the very beginning, is it has to be 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:21.480 safe sex with anyone. You know, condoms and STI checks 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.600 and just really considerate of sexual health. And that's like 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.120 a hard, incredibly hard line that's been there since the 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:35.920 very beginning. Alice's husband wasn't very interested in physical non monogamy. 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.720 He wasn't regularly searching or something outside the marriage, but 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.280 he was allowed to if he wanted to, and because 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.760 of that, Alice had to consider what her boundaries were 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:52.160 for him. Buying gifts was my boundary because like, money 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.400 is such a complicated thing in a marriage anyway. Yeah, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.040 there's something about that that I felt time upon and 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.520 not making gifts. He wanted to make somebody something for 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.520 someone that would be fine, like taking someone out is fine. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.560 It was like the physical act of giving a gift. 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.320 I think it's so interesting. I think the thing that 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.120 would make all of us uncomfortable is different. I'm trying 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.399 to think what would really piss me off if I 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:20.440 was setting boundaries with my husband, Long emotional conversations might 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.560 or even gift giving. I never thought about that before, 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.280 or frankly, acts of service him doing the dishes or 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.000 taking the garbage out in some other woman's house would 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.200 really get under my fucking skin. Yeah, and a lot 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.080 of the women that I speak to have similar boundaries. 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.399 In heterosexual relationships, like if their male partners are doing 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.320 like gift giving or acts of service. That is a 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.320 trigger for a lot of the women. I know. Your 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.119 sex dribe has increased. Now, do you think it's because 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.879 you're emerging from that phase of our lives that I 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.040 don't think it's talked about enough of motherhood of a 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.080 child of a certain age, and you're feeling more comfortable 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.240 in your body. Again, what do you think is the 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.520 reason I always felt good about my body. I've had 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.479 really great body image my whole life. And what actually 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.800 changed was I'm like the primary breadwinner in our house, 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.639 and I work a lot, and I run a business, 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:18.159 and I also try to be like an incredibly present 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.600 mother and be a good wife, to be a good daughter, 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.080 and be a good sister and a good friend. And 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.440 so I think the pressures of early motherhood. I think 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.760 all of that dampened my sex drive quite a bit. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.480 I'm in a care position with my family and my 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.760 friends a lot, and so caring for other people all 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.159 the time, I think to dampened my sex drive. And 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:48.919 then COVID obliterated it with anxiety and sort of the 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:55.639 world feeling more scary, more intense, So I feel like 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:00.159 I'm coming out of this phase of having to do 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.399 a lot of care externally, giving away a lot of 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.719 my energy all the time, and I actually have some 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:11.280 reserves left. I also feel really healthy in my body. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:15.560 And my husband after he got of a sect to me, 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.200 that really helped because we weren't worried about getting pregnant, 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.000 and so that helped because when we're having more sex 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.199 at home and better sex and feeling more connected at 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.680 home than that turns out my sex drive too. Being 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.960 non monogamous has definitely impacted the sex aalysis had with 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:37.280 their husband. For the better sex inside. My marriage is 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:43.720 one more frequent, which is great. It's more intimate. It's 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.199 been building for a decade and a half, and so 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.880 we know each other's bodies so well. I joke that 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.360 my sexual needs and desires and my body is kind 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.720 of like a scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:58.640 there's dead ends and you have to like find different things. 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.000 So my husband has to do extra work because my 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.040 taste changed kind of frequently, like a shape shifter a bit. 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:06.919 But he knows me so well that he follows that 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.919 map and it's amazing and we can try anything together 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.879 because we have so much trust and so much safety 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.320 in our relationship that we want to try feel safe 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.439 with him, and our bodies just fit together right, Like 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:24.840 our kiss is perfect and it's different and better and 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.640 sects outside My marriage is maybe more playful. It has 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.520 new relationship energy with it, which I think most people 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.680 know what that feels like. It's kind of like buyerworky 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:42.800 and crazy and like tickling and exciting, and it's very 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.919 exploratory because it's new people and you're getting to know 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.640 somebody knew, whether it's a single serving interaction or like 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:54.240 multiple engagements with that person. And I like the balance 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.639 of having both. The one that I need is the 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.119 one in my marriage. The one that I also to 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.000 add in and want is this stuff outside in the marriage. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.199 I also asked Alice if she thought that sex with 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.000 partners outside of her marriage has made her marriage stronger 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.919 in a way, or even if it's made her a 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.399 better mother. I think, like a thousand percent. We have 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:22.600 had stretches in our marriage where we're monogamous, and that 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.000 works for me too, but there again, it's chosen. But 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.960 I am definitely happier, and I bring that happiness home 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:32.840 with me when I get to be with other people 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.360 and it lightens me up. I have a lot of 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:42.399 anxiety from life, but it lowers my anxiety. It makes 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:45.840 me just a nicer person to be around, truly. And 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:48.600 then I bring that home and I am lighthearted at home, 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.159 and I'm more compassionate at home. It's just it's actually 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:57.400 better for all of us. We live in a society 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.440 the defaults to monogamy for better or worse, and anything 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.439 outside of that norm often gets judged. But more and 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.760 more women are questioning those norms these days. And I 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.680 have to say, after doing all these interviews, I think 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.040 that there's a lot that monogamous couples, couples who would 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.920 never consider an open marriage, can actually learn from open relationships. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:25.639 When we decided to be monogamous right in the beginning, 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.680 when he asked me, are we monogamous and we asked 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.600 if we could be, I meant yes, And it felt 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:34.800 good to say yes. It felt good to put attention 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.520 to what we were building in that moment. And also 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:39.840 I think there was just a part of me that 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:41.959 knew that it was going to be okay and we 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.200 weren't going to stay in that place, But it felt 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:46.080 really good to put one hundred percent of my energy 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.520 and attention into building this and cultivating this relationship, and 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:51.960 so it never felt contained by it because it was chosen. 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:55.440 And I think that's the difference of like going into 0:22:55.640 --> 0:23:00.800 default monogamy, where women, especially women feel repressed or owned 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.800 or contained, versus choosing monogamy, which which I just want 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:06.399 to be with my partner and I'm saying that, and 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:09.200 I own that and it's mine, and that feels totally 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:11.400 different to me. And so in the beginning of our relationship, 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.720 we had chosen a monogamy which felt amazing, and then 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:17.240 when it didn't feel so amazing because I wanted to 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:19.240 do other things, I did them and he said it 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.600 was okay. And then we continued to open and open 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:25.280 from that point and we still talk about it. I 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.560 don't just go out and not tell him what I'm doing. 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.320 I don't keep him in the dark of anything. I 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.120 want to make sure that it feels okay if I'm 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.280 going to go out and have a date with someone else. 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:41.919 I think that there's this stereotype of marriage, and I 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:43.520 mean we hear it all the time of like, oh, 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.320 like if in a hetero marriage, like men complaining about 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.600 their wives, for example, and like wives nagging their husbands, 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:51.879 and like all of those like stereotypes. That's what I 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:54.639 was really fed as a child, Like that's what I 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.960 heard all over. There wasn't even any like queer couples 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:00.280