1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Sex outside my marriage is maybe more playful. It has 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: new relationship energy with it. It's kind of like buyer 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: worky and crazy and like tickley and exciting. That's Alice 4 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: and she loves sex. Alice isn't her real name, but 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: everything else she told me is true. I generated a 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: lot of energy and a lot of joy from interacting 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: with other people, and that includes romantic land sexually. And 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: she loves to play and try new things. My sexual 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: needs and desires and my body is kind of like 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: this scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and there's dead 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: ends and you have to like find different things. But 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: she also very much loves her husband. He knows me 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: so well that he follows that map and it's amazing 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: and we can try anything together because we have so 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: much trust and so much safety in our relationship. Despite 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: how great things were with her husband, Alice just wasn't 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: getting everything she wanted sexually from him. She craved new bodies, 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: new excitement, new experiences, and like many of the women 19 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: we've talked to in previous episodes, she decided to have 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: an affair to find what she wanted. But here's what's different. 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: After Alice had her first sexual encounter outside of her marriage. 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: She chose to tell her husband the truth, and then 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: she asked him if he'd be open to her doing 24 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: it again. I'm Joe Piazza and you're listening to She 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: Wants More, the podcast where real women talk openly and 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: honestly about the extra marital affairs that have completely changed 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: their lives. Open marriages have been coming up in a 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: lot of our recent conversations, and at first we debated 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: even talking about it. This is a podcast about affairs. 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: It sex outside your marriage an affair If it isn't 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: a secret, is it secret part that makes the affair? 32 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: I don't actually know the answer to that. Actually. In 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: last week's episode, our expert Alexandra Fine, the sexologist and 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: founder of sex toy brand Dame, even shared that she's 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: in an open marriage. I'm in more of an open marriage. 36 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: You form patterns and habits for a reason, and having 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: a new space to get to explore, to be different. 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: I think that's how we're constantly refinding ourselves. Many of 39 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: our guests, including Wednesday Martin and doctor Ashley Thompson, have 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: even suggested that consensual non monogamy open marriages could be 41 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: a healthier way for women who are considering affairs to 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: get their sexual needs met without betraying someone. In recent years, 43 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: the stigma around open marriages seems to be lessening. Google 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: searches for terms like polyamory and non monogamy have increased 45 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: substantially since twenty sixteen, and I'm pretty sure that all 46 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: the ex positivity flooding our social media feeds is also 47 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: contributing to more curiosity on the subject. Younger people in particular, 48 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: seemed to be especially receptive to the idea of it. 49 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: A recent Tender study revealed that one fifth of gen 50 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: z users said that they would be open to considering polyamory. So, 51 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: could open marriages be the answer for some women who 52 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: are considering having an affair who are already having one? 53 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: Could open marriages be the answer for women who are 54 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: in a position of authority or privilege to be able 55 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: to ask for one. That is what I wanted to 56 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: find out. Before she met her husband, Alice never thought 57 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: that she'd get married or have a traditional monogamous relationship. 58 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: Leading up to dating my husband. I really wasn't in 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: any long term monogamous relationships. I saw a lot of 60 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: relationships that had one partner. That was quite controlling. Saw 61 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: especially parents losing their identities to just be parents, and 62 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: like you didn't know who they were beyond being a parent. 63 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: They had no hobbies, they had nothing that they seemed 64 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: to be interested in, and so I just grew up 65 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: being these I basically felt like I saw the same 66 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: relationship over and over and over with my friends parents, 67 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: and seeing my friends and how they were dating, it 68 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: all just seemed not very much fun. It seemed like 69 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: people were losing themselves. I just knew that. The way 70 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: I understood it is I don't ever want to get married. 71 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,679 Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. But then Alice did meet her husband. 72 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: We met through doing yoga together, and they just were 73 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: in the same circle of friends for a few months, 74 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: and one day we in our circle of friends ended 75 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: up ending the whole day out together. And it was 76 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: interesting because it wasn't this like flare of oh, I'm 77 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: so attracted to this person and I need to have 78 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: them or I wonder what will happen. It was just 79 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: like friendship with like an peak of interest. And a 80 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: couple weeks later, we ended up in another event together 81 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: and we ended up staying out all night and because 82 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: we are having so much fun. We just kept going out. 83 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: And then the next day I was riding my bike 84 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: and talking to a friend and I said, I met 85 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: the person I'm going to marry, and I'm freaked out 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: because I don't believe in marriage and I am too 87 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: young for this, and I don't feel like this makes 88 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: sense at all, and yet I know I want to 89 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: and I'm going to marry this person. So you did it. 90 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: You're just like, this is the person. It was just 91 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: really clear to me, and again was confusing because I 92 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: truly didn't believe in marriage. I'd never seen a super 93 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: successful marriage, at least not the way I wanted to 94 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: live my life. I didn't have a model of what 95 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: I thought I be as a wife. I'm also queer, 96 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: and so like the idea of like committing to this 97 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 1: one person, of this one gender felt like a lot 98 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: for me. And I had never been in a monogamous relationship, 99 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: and I had an assumption that if I was with 100 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: this person, that's what that would mean as well. So 101 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: we dated and we felt very quickly for each other. 102 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: He felt similarly. He had been in a lot of 103 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: long term relationships, but just didn't feel the same as 104 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: this one for him. Within three months, we were already 105 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: talking about our future together. We were engaged within eight months, 106 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: and we were married within a year and a half 107 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: of our first date. Prior to getting married, had the 108 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: two of you discussed non monogamy. Not really, So within 109 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: a couple weeks of dating each other, I was traveling 110 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: and was visiting friends and I got this cryptic phone 111 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: call at like the middle of the night. That call 112 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: was from Alice's future husband, and he very urgently wanted 113 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: to know if she was sleeping with anyone else. He's like, 114 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: I just need to know if we're monogamous. I was like, 115 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: I don't care, or do you want to be monogamous? 116 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: And he said yes, and I was like, all right, 117 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: so we are. And so we had a discussion that 118 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: we should be monogamous. That was sort of our commitment moment, 119 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: I guess. So before they even got married, Alice had 120 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: to set some boundaries. She is this naturally affectionate person, 121 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: the kind of person who likes to cuddle and hug 122 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: and be touchy with her friends. So it was very 123 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: important to her that she makes sure that her soon 124 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: to be husband was okay with her craving touch from 125 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: other people, and he was I could never have chosen 126 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: a partner who wasn't comfortable with that. I would have 127 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: never dated him if he wasn't comfortable with that. I 128 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: could never be in any sort of sustained relationship with 129 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: one person who didn't support touch outside of the relationship. 130 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: But then a few years later, after they were married, 131 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: something very different happened, something that definitely crossed the line 132 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: of what they'd agreed to when they first got married. 133 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: Alice had sex with someone else and she knew that 134 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: it crossed the boundary. Instead of hiding it, Alice decided 135 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: to tell her husband what happened. After all, they had 136 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: already communicated in the past about touch and being affectionate 137 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: with others outside of their marriage, and that conversation had 138 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: gone okay. I told him pretty much the second after 139 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: it happened, like within you know, twelve hours have been happened, 140 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: and he just noticed. He checked in with his feelings 141 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: and he said that he just didn't he didn't care, 142 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: like he didn't feel threatened by it. He knew it 143 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: wasn't about him. He felt like our relationship was strong, 144 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: and he didn't feel lied too, because I told him 145 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: pretty much the second after it happened. I really didn't 146 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: know what to expect when Alice said she told her 147 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: husband what happened twelve hours after she had sex with 148 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: someone else, anything could happened. But he was okay with it. 149 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: He was okay with it because Alice didn't lie to him, 150 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: and so he and I then really had our first 151 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: conversation about what non monogamy is for me and for him. 152 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: We had a conversation around limits and boundaries of what 153 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: feels safe for us, Like he personally wanted anogamy for himself, 154 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: and he understands that what I need to feel fulfilled 155 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: is to be connecting to other people. I'm an extreme extrovert, 156 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: like I'm beyond the boundaries extroversion, and I generated a 157 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: lot of energy and a lot of joy from interacting 158 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 1: with other people, and that includes romantically and sexually. My 159 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: husband's more of an introvert. He likes a lot of 160 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: alone time, and so this actually balances our relationship better 161 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: because it fills this need that I have for a 162 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: lot of engagement, a lot of energy, a lot of attention, 163 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: a lot of touch. Like he really understood that, and 164 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: so it's been really important for me not to keep 165 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: things and not be in the shadows at any point 166 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: about my sexuality and my non monogamy, and he's been 167 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: really amazing and receptive through the years about it. Everybody 168 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: has different definitions of what are the boundaries in our relationship? 169 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: What does it mean to us to feel that we 170 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: can trust each other. That's doctor Laurie Gottlieb, psychotherapist and 171 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author. If you remember we talked 172 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: to her in our episode about loneliness, We called her 173 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: up again to ask a few questions about boundaries, communication 174 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: and marriage. One of the things I really wanted to 175 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: know was whether doctor Gottlieb pop partners needed to talk 176 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: about their boundaries before they even got married. This is 177 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: why people come before marriage. People think, oh, they must 178 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: be having problems before they even got married because they're 179 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: going to therapy. No, people come all the time for 180 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: premarital therapy to talk about these kinds of things so 181 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: that they are on the same page about them, so 182 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: that they can at least open up the conversations and understand. 183 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: How do we talk about these things that can be 184 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: really challenging to talk about. I asked doctor Gottlieb if 185 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: it can be challenging for couples to talk to each 186 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: other because we don't always know what our boundaries are. 187 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: In fact, we might not even realize that a boundary 188 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: exists until it's been crossed, right. We don't until we 189 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: feel like one of them has been violated, and then 190 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: we say, oh, look what you did, and the other 191 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: person says, wait a minute, I didn't think I was 192 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: doing anything. Now, Sometimes they know they're doing something, so 193 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: sometimes it's a clear boundary violation, But there are many 194 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: times when two people have very different ideas about what 195 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: it means to be faithful to the other person. If 196 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: two people can have very different ideas about what it 197 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: means to be faithful, then does that mean that the 198 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: definition of an affair could be different for everyone. And 199 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: how do we define a betrayal in a marriage anyway? 200 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: Is it when something is a secret, when it's a lie, 201 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: or is it as simple as when there's a lack 202 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: of communication between partners. We'll be talking about all of 203 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: this as we learn even more about Alice's experience, as 204 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: well as how being intimate with other people actually ended 205 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 1: up helping her sex life with her husband. We're back, 206 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: So talk to me a little bit about when you 207 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: first opened up the marriage on your end, what did 208 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: the two of you have to work through for this 209 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: to work, What boundaries had to be put in place, 210 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: and what kinds of communication had to be put in place. Surprisingly, 211 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: we didn't really have to work through much at all. 212 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: I am an incredibly busy person, and so it limits 213 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: how much time I have for anything outside of the 214 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: marriage anyway, which creates a boundary in and of itself. 215 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: I tend to have either very spontaneous random experiences like 216 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: at a play party or like a one night stand, 217 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: or sort of in depth long relationships with people that 218 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: I don't see that often and who are like maybe friendly, 219 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: who I also have a sexual relationship with. And so 220 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: it has never been threatening to the marriage because there 221 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: hasn't been a lot of like the in between where 222 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm like dating somebody actively and needing to prioritize a 223 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: lot of time with that person. And the agreement that 224 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: my husband and I have is that if it takes 225 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: energy and time away from our family, or at any 226 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: point he doesn't feel like a priority, than it has 227 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: to end. We also have an agreement that if we're 228 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: not in a good place in our marriage, and we're 229 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: not connecting emotionally, physically really in any way. Like if 230 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: we feel estranged in some way, then we do not 231 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: explore outside the marriage at all. It's just like immediate lockdown. 232 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: So a good example of that is like after I 233 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: gave birth, it was a really hard moment for me. 234 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: I was working, going to school, breastfeeding, like momming, it 235 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: was so full on, and so just everything shut down 236 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: our marriage and our family sure quite a while. More recently, 237 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: we've been in conversation that involves more limits and boundaries 238 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: now that my kid is older and I have more time. 239 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: And I use this word super lovingly, but I just 240 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: feel sluttier in the best of ways, and I feel 241 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: super embodied and like really high sex drive right now. 242 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: And so I want to be going out more and 243 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: meeting more people. And a lot of my friends are 244 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: in like Polly relationships, and so I am feeling much 245 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: more like amped up about going out. And so we 246 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: have had to have those conversations that you're talking about 247 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: that we didn't before. So limits and boundaries on like 248 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: what he feels comfortable with is regarding time some as 249 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: regarding sexual acts that he prefers I do or do 250 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: not share with other people. Most recently it's about kink 251 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: play with impact with people. I was playing with a 252 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: friend of mine and he bit my leg and I 253 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: had like a pretty gnarly bruise from it, and my 254 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: husband was upset because then he had to look at 255 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: it and it made him unhappy to look at a 256 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: bruise on my body. And I didn't mind. It was 257 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: playful and fun of the moment, and so I asked him. 258 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: I was like, do you want that to be a limit? 259 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: And he said, well, if you need it and it 260 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: turns you on, I don't want to tell, you know. 261 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: And so we got into a little bit of this 262 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: like loop of me asking him, him saying, but I 263 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: don't want to restrict you. And it was like we 264 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: played around this thing for a little while until finally 265 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, I don't want you to be bruised, 266 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, that is no problem. That was 267 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,479 Speaker 1: like a recent boundary. The other thing, and this has 268 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: been since the very beginning, is it has to be 269 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: safe sex with anyone. You know, condoms and STI checks 270 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: and just really considerate of sexual health. And that's like 271 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: a hard, incredibly hard line that's been there since the 272 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: very beginning. Alice's husband wasn't very interested in physical non monogamy. 273 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: He wasn't regularly searching or something outside the marriage, but 274 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: he was allowed to if he wanted to, and because 275 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: of that, Alice had to consider what her boundaries were 276 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: for him. Buying gifts was my boundary because like, money 277 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: is such a complicated thing in a marriage anyway. Yeah, 278 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: there's something about that that I felt time upon and 279 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: not making gifts. He wanted to make somebody something for 280 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: someone that would be fine, like taking someone out is fine. 281 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: It was like the physical act of giving a gift. 282 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting. I think the thing that 283 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: would make all of us uncomfortable is different. I'm trying 284 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 1: to think what would really piss me off if I 285 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: was setting boundaries with my husband, Long emotional conversations might 286 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: or even gift giving. I never thought about that before, 287 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: or frankly, acts of service him doing the dishes or 288 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: taking the garbage out in some other woman's house would 289 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: really get under my fucking skin. Yeah, and a lot 290 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: of the women that I speak to have similar boundaries. 291 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: In heterosexual relationships, like if their male partners are doing 292 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: like gift giving or acts of service. That is a 293 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: trigger for a lot of the women. I know. Your 294 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: sex dribe has increased. Now, do you think it's because 295 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: you're emerging from that phase of our lives that I 296 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: don't think it's talked about enough of motherhood of a 297 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: child of a certain age, and you're feeling more comfortable 298 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: in your body. Again, what do you think is the 299 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: reason I always felt good about my body. I've had 300 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: really great body image my whole life. And what actually 301 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: changed was I'm like the primary breadwinner in our house, 302 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: and I work a lot, and I run a business, 303 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: and I also try to be like an incredibly present 304 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: mother and be a good wife, to be a good daughter, 305 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: and be a good sister and a good friend. And 306 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: so I think the pressures of early motherhood. I think 307 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: all of that dampened my sex drive quite a bit. 308 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm in a care position with my family and my 309 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: friends a lot, and so caring for other people all 310 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: the time, I think to dampened my sex drive. And 311 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: then COVID obliterated it with anxiety and sort of the 312 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: world feeling more scary, more intense, So I feel like 313 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: I'm coming out of this phase of having to do 314 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: a lot of care externally, giving away a lot of 315 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 1: my energy all the time, and I actually have some 316 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: reserves left. I also feel really healthy in my body. 317 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: And my husband after he got of a sect to me, 318 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: that really helped because we weren't worried about getting pregnant, 319 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: and so that helped because when we're having more sex 320 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: at home and better sex and feeling more connected at 321 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: home than that turns out my sex drive too. Being 322 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: non monogamous has definitely impacted the sex aalysis had with 323 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: their husband. For the better sex inside. My marriage is 324 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: one more frequent, which is great. It's more intimate. It's 325 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: been building for a decade and a half, and so 326 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: we know each other's bodies so well. I joke that 327 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 1: my sexual needs and desires and my body is kind 328 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: of like a scavenger hunt because it keeps changing and 329 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: there's dead ends and you have to like find different things. 330 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: So my husband has to do extra work because my 331 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: taste changed kind of frequently, like a shape shifter a bit. 332 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: But he knows me so well that he follows that 333 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: map and it's amazing and we can try anything together 334 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: because we have so much trust and so much safety 335 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: in our relationship that we want to try feel safe 336 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: with him, and our bodies just fit together right, Like 337 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: our kiss is perfect and it's different and better and 338 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: sects outside My marriage is maybe more playful. It has 339 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: new relationship energy with it, which I think most people 340 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: know what that feels like. It's kind of like buyerworky 341 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: and crazy and like tickling and exciting, and it's very 342 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 1: exploratory because it's new people and you're getting to know 343 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: somebody knew, whether it's a single serving interaction or like 344 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: multiple engagements with that person. And I like the balance 345 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: of having both. The one that I need is the 346 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: one in my marriage. The one that I also to 347 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: add in and want is this stuff outside in the marriage. 348 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: I also asked Alice if she thought that sex with 349 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: partners outside of her marriage has made her marriage stronger 350 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: in a way, or even if it's made her a 351 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: better mother. I think, like a thousand percent. We have 352 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: had stretches in our marriage where we're monogamous, and that 353 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: works for me too, but there again, it's chosen. But 354 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: I am definitely happier, and I bring that happiness home 355 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: with me when I get to be with other people 356 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: and it lightens me up. I have a lot of 357 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: anxiety from life, but it lowers my anxiety. It makes 358 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: me just a nicer person to be around, truly. And 359 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: then I bring that home and I am lighthearted at home, 360 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: and I'm more compassionate at home. It's just it's actually 361 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: better for all of us. We live in a society 362 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: the defaults to monogamy for better or worse, and anything 363 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: outside of that norm often gets judged. But more and 364 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: more women are questioning those norms these days. And I 365 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: have to say, after doing all these interviews, I think 366 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: that there's a lot that monogamous couples, couples who would 367 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: never consider an open marriage, can actually learn from open relationships. 368 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: When we decided to be monogamous right in the beginning, 369 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: when he asked me, are we monogamous and we asked 370 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: if we could be, I meant yes, And it felt 371 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: good to say yes. It felt good to put attention 372 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: to what we were building in that moment. And also 373 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: I think there was just a part of me that 374 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 1: knew that it was going to be okay and we 375 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: weren't going to stay in that place, But it felt 376 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: really good to put one hundred percent of my energy 377 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: and attention into building this and cultivating this relationship, and 378 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: so it never felt contained by it because it was chosen. 379 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's the difference of like going into 380 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: default monogamy, where women, especially women feel repressed or owned 381 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: or contained, versus choosing monogamy, which which I just want 382 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: to be with my partner and I'm saying that, and 383 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: I own that and it's mine, and that feels totally 384 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: different to me. And so in the beginning of our relationship, 385 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: we had chosen a monogamy which felt amazing, and then 386 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: when it didn't feel so amazing because I wanted to 387 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: do other things, I did them and he said it 388 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: was okay. And then we continued to open and open 389 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: from that point and we still talk about it. I 390 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: don't just go out and not tell him what I'm doing. 391 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: I don't keep him in the dark of anything. I 392 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: want to make sure that it feels okay if I'm 393 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: going to go out and have a date with someone else. 394 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: I think that there's this stereotype of marriage, and I 395 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: mean we hear it all the time of like, oh, 396 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: like if in a hetero marriage, like men complaining about 397 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: their wives, for example, and like wives nagging their husbands, 398 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: and like all of those like stereotypes. That's what I 399 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: was really fed as a child, Like that's what I 400 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: heard all over. There wasn't even any like queer couples 401 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: that I was exposed to and new, and so it 402 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: was all this heteronormative, patriarchal bullshit that totally didn't make 403 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: sense to me. As early as I could remember, I 404 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: didn't know that you could construct a whole type of 405 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: relationship that you wanted and that you can co create 406 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: with somebody else's relationship you actually want, friendship or as 407 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: a sexual or romantic partner. As we mentioned, Alice and 408 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: her husband share a daughter. She's young, too young to 409 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: talk about these things, but that won't always be the case, 410 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: and kids also pick up on everything. I really wanted 411 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: to know how Alice and her husband might need to 412 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: broach their open marriage at some point. I don't think 413 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: she knows what monogamy is. She just I think has 414 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: an assumption that she's heard me and her dad say, 415 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: like people don't own each other, They don't own each 416 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: lenge bodies Like Mom could go do what she wants, 417 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,239 Speaker 1: Dad could go do what he wants. And it's not 418 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: sexual right because she doesn't even she's not even old 419 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: enough to understand what that is yet. But it's about 420 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: like releasing this idea of ownership and so she can 421 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: actually choose. She might choose to be monogamous at some point, 422 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: but I don't want anyone to tell her what to 423 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: do with herself, you know. I want her to choose 424 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: it if she wants to choose it. And so the 425 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: way we framed it so far far is just about 426 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: like engaging in the world, like Mom goes and does 427 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: this thing. Mom stays out all night sometimes Dad does 428 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: this thing, and Dad goes on vacation by himself sometimes, 429 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: like it's part of that conversation. So it feels very 430 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: like it's happening organically that she's knowing about this. It 431 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like something I have to like come out 432 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: about because it's just something I do. Like coming out 433 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: and being queer and having people know that feels important 434 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: because that's an identity. But like I don't identify as polyamorous. 435 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: It's just like it's what I do. It's in my 436 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: life and it fulfills this thing because I'm just a 437 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: really highly sexual person, and I specifically am like I 438 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,959 Speaker 1: like to engage with other people in a sexual way. 439 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break. We're back. For 440 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: some people, it's easy to keep things completely physical. We've 441 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: heard from plenty of women on the show who've managed 442 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: to do just that. But for every one of those women, 443 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: we've talked to someone who's crossed an emotional line and 444 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: fallen deeper than they expected. I asked Alice if that 445 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: had ever happened to her. I've had a few people 446 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: like tell me they love me, and I'm like, so, 447 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: I think this might be the end of that relationship 448 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: because I don't want to get more complicated than that. 449 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: So you know, it's just I try to feel out 450 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: each relationship and see what feels the safe is, because truly, 451 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: the thing I like about them is a sexual piece. 452 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: Like I don't need a bunch of other partners. I 453 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: had a long term connection with one person and it 454 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: developed into something else, and that happened sort of organically 455 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: and maybe accidentally, and it was complicated for us. That 456 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: was when we had more talking involved, and then it 457 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: ended because things in and it didn't work in our 458 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: lives anymore. But the way we navigated it was the 459 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: same way as we navigate all the rest of the 460 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: stuff is like does my husband feel like a priority? 461 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: Is my time being spent mostly at home? How communicative 462 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: and honest story being about everything? And so we just 463 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: followed all the rules and it worked out fine. What 464 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: we know in the literature is yes, by and large, 465 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: open relationships. So these pessentially non monogamous relationships are beneficial, 466 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: caveat being that they need to be communicated. That's doctor 467 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: Ashley Thompson again. Remember her, she's the sex professor, an 468 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: expert that we talked to in episode three. Doctor Thompson 469 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: has done a lot of research in open marriages, consensual 470 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: non monogamy, and here's what she's found. So when you 471 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 1: see people really strategically introduced polyamory or open relationships into 472 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: maybe what was once a monogamous relationship, if they talk 473 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: about it with their partner, figure out what's acceptable and 474 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: what's not, it overwhelmingly is a positive experience. And so 475 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: consensual no monogamy can help out there where you know what, 476 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: maybe your primary relationship is fantastic, but you're missing a 477 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: few things here, and you can get those things there 478 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: without breaching trust in a way that everyone is accepting 479 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: of it just seems to me like a win win. 480 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 1: Why not if everyone's cool with it, let's get all 481 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: our needs met in whatever ways we need. Maybe this 482 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: is a win win. Your sexual needs get met and 483 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: no one gets lied to, no one's betrayed. The stigma 484 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: of extramarital relationships can be eroded. But that in itself 485 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: kind of feels like a world that a lot of 486 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: people in our society still won't be able to accept. 487 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: But what I hope you take from this is that 488 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: by talking about it, by having these real and honest 489 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: conversations about different models of being partnered with another human being, 490 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: those conversations might help us start being more comfortable figuring 491 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: out what does make us happy and to start asking 492 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: for it. If this podcast has made you wonder whether 493 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: everyone is having an affair right now, whether it's just 494 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: completely pervasive and you're the only one who's left out, 495 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: you're not alone. But I also don't think that's true. 496 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: I believe monogamy still works for a lot of people. 497 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you that through my reporting, I 498 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: found that having an affair, that finding someone to do 499 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: it with seems to be easier than ever, and that, 500 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: like many things in our life, from getting groceries to 501 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: call in a cab, is mostly due to changes in technology. 502 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: Technology has made it easier than ever to have extramarital affairs, 503 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: and it has also really shifted our understanding of what 504 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: exactly a boundary is. Could an affair mean casual flirting 505 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: on Facebook message? Could an affair means someone activate a 506 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: remote vibrator from MC content and away. That's the thing, 507 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: by the way it is, and we are diving into 508 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: all of it next week. We're talking about why affairs 509 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: are easier than ever before, how women use technology to 510 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: get away with them, and how they juggle multiple affairs 511 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: while working, taking care of kids and everything else that 512 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: women do. This is She Wants More. I'm your host 513 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: Joe Piazza. She Wants More was inspired by the book 514 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was 515 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Karat Pfeiffer, 516 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and 517 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead producer. 518 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: And story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crinchich. 519 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpf and Hamilton Lighthouser. 520 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 1: Our executive producers for iHeart are Ali Ry and Nikki Etour. 521 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: She Wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts. For 522 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 523 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.