1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: MHM. Justice never has an expiration date. If we can't 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: correct wrongful convictions, then people are saying, how can we 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: trust the whole criminal justice system. Rodney Lincoln's case is 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: not an anomaly. Decades of unchecked misconduct leads to decades 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: of injustice. Right, I'm Leah Rothman, this is the Real 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: Killer Episode eleven. Something stinks in Missouri. You know they 7 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: said justice is supposed to be equal to all. I've 8 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: never taught to anyone that believes that justice is equal 9 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: to all, and some of the people that I talked 10 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: to you would judge I have the judges don't believe 11 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: in it. Who does. Rodney Lincoln spent thirty six years 12 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: and ten days in prison for crimes the vast majority 13 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: of people believe he did not commit. I want to 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: know why, Why in Missouri is it so hard to 15 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: free the wrongfully convicted? And to be fair, it's not 16 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: just a problem in Missouri. According to the National Registry 17 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: of Exonerations, in there were one and twenty nine exonerations nationwide, 18 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: with a total of one thousand, seven hundred and thirty 19 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: seven years lost behind bars. Again, we're only talking about 20 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: those who are actually exonerated seven of those exonerations involved 21 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: official misconduct, and thirty exonerations were convictions based at least 22 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: in part on mistaken witness identifications. You know, the Missouri 23 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: state motto is Salus popular least suprema lex esto, which 24 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: translates to let the good or safety of the people 25 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: be the supreme law. Rodney's former attorney, Shawn O'Brien, who 26 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: has been in the thick of the fight to free 27 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: the innocent for decades, may disagree Missouri's measuring up to 28 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: its own motto for all of its people. First of all, 29 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: what percentage of people in prison do you believe are innocent? 30 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: The best estimate was a fellowed by the name of 31 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: Sam Gross, who is a criminal procedure professor at Michigan 32 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: Law School. Um. Really good guy, really smart, scary smart 33 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of person, and his estimate. You can take it 34 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: as high as ten or twelve percent, but more likely 35 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: it's probably closer to um two to three percent UM. 36 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: And so when you think about the fact that we have, 37 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, two point one million prisoners in custody at 38 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: this moment, that's pretty high. That's just people who have 39 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: already been convicted. I think that number would be much 40 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: higher among pre trial detainees. In death penalty cases. I 41 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: can tell you that, for um, every nine people we execute, 42 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: we release one innocent person from death row. And the 43 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: question it is staggering. Yeah. There's an organization called the 44 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: Death Penalty Information Center. They did a study of death 45 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: penalty Where are you most likely to get executed in 46 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: the US if you're convicted of murder? And of course 47 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: a lot of counties in Texas are very high on 48 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: the list. St. Louis City is number nine. St. Louis 49 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: County is number ten, and if you eliminate Texas, St. 50 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: Louis City in St. Louis County are number two and 51 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: three in the US at actually killing people. St. Louis 52 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: is a perfect storm. You have zealous prosecutors, assembly line courts, 53 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: and weak public defenders in that office. Their caseloads are awful, 54 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: and they've been cutting corners for so long that nobody's 55 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: actually practicing law in the defense of cases. I mean, 56 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: a successful result in a case is more of a 57 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: fluke or an accident than the product of how the 58 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: system should work. And in that environment, it's a perfect 59 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: place for detectives like Joe bragoon to function because nobody 60 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: is going to really look at the integrity of his 61 00:04:53,640 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: work product and question it. It just doesn't happen. If 62 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: an innocent persons on death row, it's obviously a serious 63 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: fight against the clock to free them, but at the 64 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: very least they have a statutory right to an attorney 65 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: up until the moment they're executed. For those not on 66 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: death row, they're kind of on their own. For you know, 67 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: the common person sentenced to length the time in jail 68 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: for something he didn't do. We don't have lawyers digging 69 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: except you know, for the handful of exoneration projects around 70 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: the US. That's really the issue is the resources to 71 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: prove their innocence are scarce. So it's not unusual for 72 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: an innocence project to have a backlog of six or 73 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: seven cases people just asking please look at my case. 74 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: And if someone is actually lucky enough to get an 75 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: innocence project or pro bono attorney to take on their case, 76 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: well it's just the first step in a very arduous process. 77 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: Why do these cases take so long, Well, because the 78 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: standard is so high and there are so many barriers 79 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: to release. You know, the system operates under a very 80 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: heavy presumption that everybody in prison is guilty, and it 81 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: is very difficult to overturn that presumption of finality. And 82 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: I don't want to get into a complicated lecture about 83 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: post conviction procedure. But every case goes through about nine 84 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: possibly available uh stages of review, and it works like 85 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: shoots and ladders. You can get to a certain stage 86 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: and they say, I want to go back to this 87 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: stage and try again. I mean mostly that bouncing around 88 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: is over procedural technicalities. Are you a Douglas Adams fan 89 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? I have not read it. 90 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Well, and one of my favorite chapters is 91 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: titled somebody Else's Problem. So they're flying along in their 92 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: rocket ship in outer space and they go through what 93 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: the author calls is somebody Else's problem field where the 94 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: captain is about to crash the ship into a planet 95 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: and he says, it's not my problem. I'm not the navigator, 96 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: and the navigator says, not my problem. IY not the engineer, 97 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: And the engineer says it's not my problem. I'm not. 98 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: It's always somebody else's responsibility to fix. And I see 99 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system after having read that book, I 100 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: thought that's a perfect analogy for post conviction litigation. You know, 101 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: the judge and post conviction says, well, the jury pronounced 102 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: him guilty, and if they're wrong, the appellate court is 103 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: gonna overturn it. Uh. And if the appellate court's wrong, 104 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: then the post conviction court can take another look at it. 105 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: And the post conviction court says, why should I look 106 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: at it. It's already been looked at by all these 107 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: other people like you. Get to the point of ridiculousness. 108 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: Um at nobody has responsibility because it's spread out over 109 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: so many places. There are so many things about Rodney's 110 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: case that should make everybody who ever touched it very uncomfortable, 111 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: if not ashamed, had the role that they played in 112 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: obtaining and reviewing this conviction. When we talk about how 113 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: much time the crime in this case happened before I 114 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: was born, so the entire time I represented Rodney, he 115 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: had been incarcerated for longer than I had been alive. 116 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: That's Tricia Rojo bush Nell again. She's Rodney's attorney and 117 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: the executive director at the Midwest Innocence Project. Everything I 118 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: ever did in my life until I was thirty six. 119 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: Rodney was incarcerated during it my whole life. It should 120 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: not take that long. M hm. And my whole life 121 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: means his kid's whole life, his grandkids. How much do 122 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: you miss in that time? And it's impossible to explain. 123 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: So it takes forever to even prove in the courts 124 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: that these people are innocent. Then innocence is not enough. 125 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: I don't understand that. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it. 126 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: That is the way the system is designed, right, And 127 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: although everyone in Rodney's case is white, the system is 128 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: disproportionately designed and stacked against people of color. You know. 129 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: I think a lot about this in the state of Missouri. 130 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: One is, we are a Southern state that doesn't want 131 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: to admit that we were a Southern state, right, So 132 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: we were a slave state that did not fight for 133 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: the Confederacy. So we have and we are identified as 134 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: the Midwest. Right, folks think about the injustice and the 135 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: racism and the problems in places like the South, when 136 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: we have all those same problems and racist problems and 137 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: practices are still existing today and the consequences that are 138 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: tuisting today. I mean, in our office, we say that 139 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: systemic racism is the leading cause of wrongful convictions. It 140 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: infects every part of it. Right. The reason we don't 141 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: fund public defenders is also because the vast majority of 142 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: people who need public defenders are black and brown folks 143 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: who come from disadvantaged socio economns status, and so it 144 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: infects every part of it. And it's it's it's like, 145 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: we need just change who's in power that give people 146 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: who are affected real power. I mean, what would the 147 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: criminal legal system look like if the people impacted by 148 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: the criminal skillstem designed it right? And also, we need 149 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: people to care about other human beings. That's what I 150 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: think is so insane when we walk in in the 151 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: court and they say, oh, it's not enough unless you're 152 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: sentenced to death, Like how do you go home? How 153 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: do you write those words down? And I'd be like, 154 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, I feel good about today. And when a 155 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: decision like that, innocence isn't enough unless your sentence to 156 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: death is handed down, it has some laugh sting, life 157 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: altering effects for so many. When we lost Rodney's case, 158 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: not only did we lose it for Rodney, we lost 159 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: it for every other innocent person coming next. Right now, 160 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: that's still the standard innocence is not enough unless you 161 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: are sentenced to death. And one of those people directly 162 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: affected by that loss is forty eight year old Lamar Johnson, 163 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: also from St. Louis. So you know, in Missouri's most 164 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: folks know Lamar Johnson because there is another devastating loss 165 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: also just like Rodney Lincoln. Right, It's another one of 166 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: those cases that seems to defy logic. In during a 167 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: botched robbery, twenty five year old Marcus Boyd is shot 168 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: and killed, and I witness Greg Elking, who was sitting 169 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: next to Marcus Boyd at the time, tells St. Louis 170 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: Metro p D he can't identify the two shooters because 171 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: it was nighttime and the men were wearing masks. Although 172 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: Lamar Johnson has an alibi for the time of the murder, 173 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: Gregg Elking eventually I DA s him as one of 174 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: the two perpetrators. Lamar Johnson is convicted and sentenced to 175 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: life without parole. Then, in nineteen ninety six and two 176 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: thousand and two, the two masked men confessed to the 177 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: murder and say Lamar Johnson was never there. In two 178 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: thousand three, Greg Elking, the witness, recounts to his pastor, 179 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: and in two thousand eight, about fourteen years after Lamar 180 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: Johnson was convicted, the Midwest Innocence Project takes his case. 181 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: By the way. For years before m IP came on board, 182 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: Lamar Johnson was acting as his own advocate, gathering evidence 183 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: which could help prove his innocence. He tried and lost 184 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: several appeals, even with the sworn affidavits of the two 185 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: confessed killers. Then in St. Louis Circuit, attorney Kim Gardner 186 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: and her conviction integrity units start reviewing Lamar Johnson's case 187 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: and in time what they find is shocking. They uncover 188 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: more than four thousand dollars worth the payments paid out 189 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: to the witness, Greg Elking, which was in exchange for 190 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: him identifying Lamar Johnson as one of the killers. Here's 191 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: Tricia again. We had asked for records of those payments 192 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: ten different times and we were told no such payments exist. Right, 193 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: Kim Garner gets elected, We go and present this case 194 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: to her. She they go and they look in the 195 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: file and there is a blue folder says did not 196 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: disclose and inside his record of all the payments and 197 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 1: all of our requests asking for proof of the payments. 198 00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: They also find proof that police invented witness statements, fabricae, 199 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: did a false confession from Lamar Johnson, and prosecutors hit 200 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: all of this and more from defense attorneys. So you know, 201 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: at that time, Kim Gardner says, it isn't we need 202 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: let him out, and so she filed the emotion for 203 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: new trial. And the Statute of Missouri says a defendant 204 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: has fifteen days after this convictions finlet to file emotion 205 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: for new trial. And it doesn't make clear what the 206 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: timeline is for prosecutors. So we were going to say, 207 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: prosecutor can do it anytime. She has an ethical duty 208 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: right as a minister of justice. So she filed it. 209 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: It filed it in the St. Louis Um Circuit Court. 210 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: The judge appointed the a g to appear for reasons 211 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: I cannot explain. The ag said, you have no power 212 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: to do that. We were denied. It went up to 213 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: the Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals said, we 214 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: don't really know and we think the miss Ray Supreme 215 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: Court should should hear this. They transferred it to the 216 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: Misra Supreme Court for them to decide that no, a 217 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: prosecutor cannot do that. So to sum it up, the 218 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: witness re cants, the killers confess there's proof of police 219 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: and prosecutorial misconduct. And when Kim Gardner takes all of 220 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: this to the courts requesting a new trial, the judge 221 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: appoints Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmidt to take over the case, 222 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: who then fights her authority, saying she should have none, 223 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: and he wins. Imagine you take this job and you're 224 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: told that you don't have the right to correct wrathful convictions. Again, 225 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner. I think that Lamar Johnson represents 226 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: a issue that I believe when a prosecutor, as in 227 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: other jurisdictions, they have told me, when they are made 228 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: aware that something was not right, everyone including the courts, 229 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: trying to find a way to correct what prosecutor discovers 230 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: maybe a rawful uh conviction. And I believe that in 231 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: this case it was very strange that a judge automatically 232 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: called in the attorney general, who I represent the state, 233 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: and when the Attorney general um re appealed. It was 234 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: not about Lamar Johnson. It was not about whether he 235 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: was innocent or guilty. It was more about me, as 236 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: the elected prosecutor not having the ability to correct wrongful convictions. 237 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: And the Missouri Supreme Court ruled in the Attorney General's favor, 238 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: but it was more disturbing that we are ministers of 239 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: justice and regardless of whether we secure of conviction or not, 240 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: justice does not stop after that conviction. Do you feel 241 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: like the Attorney General, Eric Schmidt, was that personal? Do 242 00:16:53,800 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: you think because you're reform based, because you're a woman. Well, 243 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: I think it was, you know, personal to to the 244 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: circuit attorney because I am the first African American female 245 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: reformat a prosecutor to ever lead this office. So I 246 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: believe that because our philosophies and somehow are different, but 247 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: our philosophy should be sent the same in terms of justice. 248 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: Justice is not a Republican idea or a democratic idea, 249 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: or a progressive idea or a conservative idea. Justice is 250 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: what it is justice and we seek justice. And I 251 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: believe that the Attorney General made it more about attacking me, 252 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: the elected prosecutor, and he's never denied that Lamar Johnson 253 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: is is is innocent. It was just about me and 254 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: do I have the right to correct month for convictions? 255 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's personal here, Sawn O'Brien again, 256 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: to say that Kim Gardner is meeting a lot of 257 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: opposition from the Attorney General's office would be the understatement 258 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: of the century. It is shameful how much the Attorney 259 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: General has politicized the criminal justice process, and frankly, I 260 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: think it's because of race. Not only is she a 261 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: reform minded prosecutor, but she is a black reform minded prosecutor, 262 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: the first black prosecutor that St. Louis City has ever 263 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: seen in its history. And the pushback is incredible. Presumably 264 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: Attorney General Eric Schmidt would deny this. I've reached out 265 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: multiple times to ask him about it, but I haven't 266 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: heard back. What Kim Gardner was trying to do should 267 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: have worked. Maybe it would have worked in other states, 268 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: not Missouri. That's former m IP investigator Dan growth House. 269 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: You met him in earlier episodes. He's worked tirelessly on 270 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: both Rodney Lincoln and Lamar Johnson's cases. I mean Lamar. 271 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: I've known Lamar Sin's two thousand and eight. I know 272 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: everything about his case, the amount of evidence that I 273 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: collected from the people that committed the crime. Very seldom 274 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: do I get affidavit signed by the real shooters, And 275 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: very seldom do I get affidavits signed by the witness 276 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: that lied to the police who tells me why they 277 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: lied to the police. Seldom do I get affidavits from 278 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: witnesses that looked at the police reports and said, I 279 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: never told the cops that I'll sign an affidavit that 280 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: said that that that police report is fraudulent, that I 281 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: never said that. It's just, you know, nine yards of craziness. 282 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: Lamar keeps me up at night. Son of a bitch. 283 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: I could. I could talk like a sailor for five 284 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: minutes talking about how mother fucking pisted I am. That 285 00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: Lamar is still sitting in prison makes me puke. According 286 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: to Injustice Watch, a not for profit, nonpartisan organization that 287 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: does in depth research on institutions, justice and equality, it's 288 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: not just the current Attorney General, Eric Schmidt, who has 289 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: been opposing relief for the wrongfully convicted. The Missouri AG's 290 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: office has been opposing nearly every wrongful conviction case since 291 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: the year two thousand. A perfect example of this is 292 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: Shawn O'Brien's Joe am Ran case, which we talked about 293 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: in a previous episode. When The Assistant Attorney General was 294 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: asked by one of the justices, quote, are you suggesting 295 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: even if we find that Mr Amran is actually innocent, 296 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: he should be executed? He answered, that is correct, your honor. 297 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: Absolutely unbelievable, right mean stomach turning. Although Joe am Rin 298 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: was not executed and was eventually released from prison, that 299 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Assistant a G sentiment for me kind of sums up 300 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems with the post conviction justice 301 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: system in Missouri. While it's completely legal for the a 302 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: G to oppose relief, why would they do it based 303 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: on their duty to do so instead of basing it 304 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: on a person's guilt or innocence? And it is in 305 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: fact happening all over Missouri, like in Jackson County. Kevin 306 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: Strickland is another man most believe is innocent. He's been 307 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: serving time for a triple homicide that happened back in 308 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: nine similar to the Lamar Johnson case. Jackson County Prosecutor 309 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: Jean Peters Baker has been stripped of any power to 310 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: release Kevin Strickland. Here she is in a May press conference. 311 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm here advocating from Mr strict It's freedom and that 312 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: his conviction should be vacated. Most importantly, though I'm advocating 313 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: that this man must be freed immediately. My job is 314 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: to protect the innocent. It is important to recognize when 315 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: the system has made wrongs, and what we did in 316 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: this case was wrong. So to Mr Strickland, I am 317 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: profoundly sorry. I am profoundly sorry for the harm um 318 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: that has come to you. And to that end, Um, 319 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: I want to tell this community that I represent um, 320 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: that I find this mistake in this system to be profound, 321 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: to be one that I should take every ounce of 322 00:22:54,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: energy I have to correct. I am sorry for this 323 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: mistake made by this system. An uphill battle for Jean Peters, Baker, 324 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: Kim Gardner, and many of the other prosecutors in Missouri, 325 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: but they may have just gotten a break. On July, 326 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: Missouri Governor Mike Parson signs Senate Bill fifty three into law, which, 327 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: among other things, creates quote a judicial procedure that provides 328 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 1: a pathway for a prosecuting attorney to correct a miscarriage 329 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: of justice resulting from a wrongful conviction. And there's some 330 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: more good news. I'm beyond ecstatic to report that on 331 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: November with the help of Tricia and the Midwest Innocence Project. 332 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: A judge set aside the conviction of the now sixty 333 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: two year old wheelchair dependent Kevin Strickland after serving forty 334 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: three years in prison. He's finally free. Two victories, for sure, 335 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: but the fight is far from over. I mean, forgive 336 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: me for like being so pedestrian about it. But if 337 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: Eric Schmidt's family member it's been wrongfully convicted, they're sitting 338 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: in prison and it's just bureaucracy and it being politicized, 339 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: and that's the stuff that's keeping their innocent loved one 340 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,959 Speaker 1: in prison, would they be reacting the same way. Well, 341 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: I think that's a very good question to ask, because 342 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: in the end of the day, it's about justice. In 343 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: the end of the day, it should not be about 344 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: a political pissing contest against the elected Stircuit attorney because 345 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: you don't like her stance on reforming a system that 346 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: we all know is beyond broken. Yeah, if I can 347 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: get the Attorney General to call me back, I'll let 348 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,479 Speaker 1: you know what he says. Do you think that it's ego? 349 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: Do you think they're afraid of payouts? And obviously you 350 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: can't speak for them, but what isn't. I mean, why 351 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: do they think it's I think it's the false premise 352 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: of this law and auto rhetoric that some people run 353 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: on a platform that that law and art are tough 354 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: on crime. And we know that that was been allied, 355 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: the war on drugs was aligned. We need to talk 356 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: about the war on um, poor people, people of color. 357 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: We need to you know, actually show and look at 358 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: the data that have we made our city safe with 359 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: the lawn auto rhetoric and we have not again, And 360 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: like I told Kim, I've reached out to Attorney General 361 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: Eric Schmidt multiple times for comment but have not heard back. He, 362 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: like the ex Governor Eric Grayten's, is also running for 363 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: the U. S. Senate. When we talk about Lamar Johnson, 364 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln, and many others, everyone should be doing their 365 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: best under the rule of law to find a way, 366 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: and even the courts, the courts have discretion to actually 367 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: make away when there's no way, and I think that 368 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: that's where we have to to really look at what 369 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: is at stake. Mr Lincoln has served thirty six years 370 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: of his life, I mean thirty six years and he's 371 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: now seventy plus. You know, when you have lived most 372 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: of your life can find for a crime you did 373 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: not commit, just the mental angers, the mental torment, the 374 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: toll it takes on a person's family. Ronney Lincoln's family 375 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: and friends have served those thirty plus years with them, 376 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: and the end of the day, we have to do 377 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: better if we truly want people to believe in the 378 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: criminal justice system. And I think that that's what says 379 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: Steak is we have to make the system fair for everybody. 380 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: It's about fairness and justice, and I believe that you know, 381 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: either you gotta get on board or you need to 382 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: get out the way. Well, it seems this is where 383 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: our journey comes to an end. But the most most 384 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: important question still remains. Who killed joe An Tate and 385 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: savagely attacked Melissa and Renee. Circuit attorney Kim Gardner says 386 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: the case is still open. Melissa, uncle Nat and aunt 387 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: Lourie have since reached out to her office requesting whatever 388 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: viable evidence there is be entered into the national databases. 389 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: Maybe the DNA is too degraded. I don't know, but 390 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: in my conversations with people close to the case, it 391 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 1: seems there may be some fingerprints that, even if they 392 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: aren't good enough to be a match to someone. Maybe 393 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: they're good enough at least to exclude some people. Melissa 394 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: and her family deserve the chance to possibly finally get 395 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: the answers which have alluded them since April. Also a 396 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: quick follow up on the Steve Vancy episode. I wanted 397 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: to try to verify his story that police considered him 398 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: enough of a suspect that they had him take a 399 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: polygraph and then cleared him after he passed it. But 400 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find anything in any of 401 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: the police reports to back that up. If I talked 402 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: to Steve Nancy again and have new information that's worth sharing, 403 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: I will. I want to thank everyone who participated in 404 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: the making of this podcast. Your time and insight have 405 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: been invaluable. I could not have done it without you all. 406 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: I especially want to thank Melissa, who just finished writing 407 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: her memoir entitled Not Quite Right. It's a love letter 408 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: to society's outsiders, which she hopes will help and inspire 409 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: survivors of all kinds. And Rodney, who is skydiving, fishing, 410 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: and making up for lost time with his family. He 411 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: is patiently waiting to learn if he'll receive a full 412 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: pardon from the Governor of Missouri. Melissa and Rodney's honesty, openness, 413 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: and bravery are why this podcast was possible. They are 414 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: the epitome of strength, forgiveness, and love. If anyone has 415 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: any information about this case, please go to www dot 416 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney dot org. The Real Killer is a production 417 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: of a y R Media and I Heart Radio, hosted 418 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: by me Leah Rothman, Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza 419 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: Rosen for a y R Media. Written by me Leah Rothman, 420 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound design by 421 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering 422 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: by Jesus c Mario Studio engineering by Tom Weir and 423 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media Gianni Douglas, 424 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: Executive producer for I Heart Radio Chandler Maze. If you're 425 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about it and 426 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you 427 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.