WEBVTT - David Wallace-Wells & Brian Klass 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics. 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 Well we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:08.559 today's best minds. 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.160 We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean we don't have 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:13.840 a great show for you today. David Wallace Well stops 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.640 by updatus on what he's seeing on the climate change front. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.120 But first we have the author of Fluke, Chance, Chaos 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.040 and why everything we do matters, Brian Klass. 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.240 Welcome too, Fast Politics. 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:27.200 Brian, it's so great to be back. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:28.120 You're in the UK. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.720 I think we must first do two seconds on the UK, 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.720 despite its complete lack of importance in the world, no 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.480 offense or anything, talk to us about what's going on there. Yeah. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.640 So I'm a dual national now, so I get to 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:44.880 vote in both the UK and the US elections. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.479 Is that photo fraud? That feels like photo fraud? Now? 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:50.760 I endeavor to do a bye by the rules since 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:52.400 I once sorte a book called how to regular Election, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:53.840 I have to be sort of careful about that. 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:54.040 No. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.600 But the thing that's interesting about the UK, it's going 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.520 to be an electoral landslide for the Labor Party, the 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.000 last wing party, And what's really striking here is that 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.560 when you screw up a country and when you sort 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.680 of fail to govern, people actually change their minds. And 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.759 so what you see here is that the Tory base, 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.319 the Conservative Party base, has sort of fallen out. I mean, 0:01:14.360 --> 0:01:18.440 they're pulling somewhere between seventeen and twenty four percent in 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:21.720 most of the polls, and they won forty six percent 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.800 of the votes in the last election, so they've lost 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.560 half their vote. And I think this is the thing 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.800 that makes me the most depressed about the United States 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.440 is that, by contrast, you can have all the stuff 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.759 with Trump, you know, thirty four felonies, all the craziness 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.840 and all the failures of governance, and he's just at 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.200 forty percent always. And I think that's something that speaks 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.880 to you know, a rareer statement these days. But the 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.959 comparative health actually of British democracy is that when you 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.600 wreck the country, there are still electoral consequences here. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.280 Okay, so I'm going to just push back here, and 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:53.280 I hate to push back, but you guys are a 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.240 coalition government. I mean, if we were in a coalition government, 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.400 I think we'd be in a totally different place. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.120 That's true, But really there are are two main viable 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.440 parties in most UK elections. And I think the other 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.000 thing it's worth remembering is that this is something where 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.040 the Conservative Party has collapsed. It's not something where you have, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.120 you know, a situation where it's all of a sudden, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.079 you know, there's different coalitions. It's that they've actually lost 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.560 half their voters. So in other words, they got forty 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.680 six percent last time around, they're probably going to get 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.359 like twenty percent this time around. Whereas you know, you're 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.520 not seeing that sort of shift in the US, especially 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.760 even among favorability ratings for Trump, right, So like if 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.200 you ask people like do you think the Conservatives are good, 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:34.480 those ratings have also collapsed, Whereas if you ask people 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:37.160 do you think Trump is good, they're pretty flat. And 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.400 so you know, that's that's the thing again. I mean 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.840 Liz Trust was the other instance of this, where she's 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.240 completely bankrupted the country, messed the economy up in a 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.400 catastrophic way, you know, famously failed to outlive a lettuce 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.720 and so on. She had a nine percent approval rating 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.040 in the only poll that was taken, because she was 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:55.960 only in power long enough to have one poll taken, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:03:00.600 but it was you know, unbelievably unpopular, and that meant 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:02.519 that her own party had turned on her. And I 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.200 think that's what's really striking to me as an American 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.760 living in the UK and now a naturalized British citizen 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.320 as well, is that they are still capable of turning 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:11.280 on their own party. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.040 They're not as partisan as Americans. 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.120 Well, I think there's just more of a willingness to 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.720 sort of jettison a politician when they objectively screw up. 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.560 And I mean, you know, the last sort of fourteen 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.960 years of Britain has been one of decline, and so 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.520 people are fed up and they're actually changing their minds 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:28.400 and changing their votes. 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.280 I both agree and disagree here, Like I do think 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:37.160 that one of Trump's superpowers is that he's very charismatic, 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.680 which is Boris Johnson was. I don't want to sound 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.120 like a snob here, but Boris Johnson was like maybe 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.520 a little too intelligent, even though again I feel like 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.320 I'm going to get roasted for saying this, but like 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.720 he was. I mean, Boris Johnson compared to Trump. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.720 As like Lincoln. I mean, am I wrong? 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.080 I mean, his policies are terrible, He's completely crazy, but 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:01.480 I think he is a little less crazy than Trump 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.040 and a little more posh. 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:04.840 I think that's true, But I also think that the 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.360 UK electorate would never go for a Trump figure. I mean, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.640 Boris is as close to that that you could possibly get, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.200 because for sure, I mean over here universally, the conversations 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.040 that Americans have with British people about US politics is 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:19.200 what is happening? How can you possibly still be flirting 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.960 with Trump for a second term. There's just a bafflement, right, 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.120 There's this sort of can you please explain to me 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.000 how this person still is in politics, because you know, 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.719 there are consequences for scandals in UK politics, even though 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.280 there's still scandals, right. It's not like they're politicians who 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.279 are free from scandal. It's just that they actually have 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.640 consequences and they destroy careers still and they have you know, 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.200 sort of inquiries from nonpartisan groups that condemn them, and 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.680 then they leave politics and shame still exists Boris notwithstanding. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.760 It's one of the things where whenever I tell people, 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.400 you know, that I've become a naturalized British citizen, they 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:54.320 always say, you know, commiserations, you've left one sinking ship 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.120 for another, you know, But I do think that the 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.240 UK is sinking less, and I think part of that 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.679 is because of what's about to happen on July fourth, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.120 which is the UK elections, where there is going to 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.240 be a I mean, I think this will be a 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.440 complete sea change election. I mean we could have one 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:16.800 of the biggest wipeouts of Conservative politicians in living memory, 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.839 possibly more than from nineteen ninety seven when Tony Blair 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.720 rose to power. To me, this is really indicative of 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:26.280 complete collapse, is that they're like the person who's the 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.040 chancellor right now, Jeremy Hunt could lose his seat right 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.640 he's like the second in command basically for the party 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.520 and he's fighting to maintain his position in Parliament. There 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.640 are going to be a lot of senior politicians who 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.320 are ousted from politics altogether in this election, which is 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.600 not going to happen in the United States come November. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.640 So I think there's some stuff for his glimmers of hope. 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:47.200 In the UK. 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:52.560 Every election since twenty sixteen, Trump has lost. So even 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:57.200 though the polls make it look tight, make it seem tight, 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.200 they're polling this elector we don't know if that going 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.760 to show up or not. Largely Republicans have not really 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.800 won since twenty sixteen, and even when they won the House, 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.680 it was sort of this Ron Lauder sneak in these 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:17.400 five Republicans in California and in New York State that 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.400 they might be real moderates and not vote for stuff. 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.719 I'm talking about d Esposito and Mike Lawler and a 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.479 bunch of white guys who seem like they might not 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.320 be so bad. So even if the polls say one thing, 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.400 and maybe these polls are correct and maybe we have 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.360 this trumpy election in twenty twenty four that makes us 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.840 all eat our hats. But if you were to just 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.120 look at elections, every single special election since the fall 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.240 of Row has been a fucking shit show for Republicans. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.640 Yeah, I mean I get that, But the thing is 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.839 that there's not been like an electoral blood bass for 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.040 Republicans ever. And like, this is something where we're talking 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.160 the Tories. So there's six hundred and fifty seats in 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.599 the British Parliament and there's a question about whether the 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.760 Tories going to win one hundred, right, I mean, this 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:03.839 is the kind of stuff we're talking about. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.720 But they've been in power for almost twenty years. I mean, 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.400 they left the European Union. Like Trump is a fucking 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.800 moron and a lunatic, But the damage that has happened 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.560 with leaving the EU is harder to effects than Trump. 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.720 Well, I don't think I agree with that. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:21.679 Do you think they could go back into the EU 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:23.280 or you think it's not as damaging. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.440 I don't think that the damage is more severe than 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.280 Trump is doing to say American democracy and so on. 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:30.360 I think the problems that Trump is injected into the 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.280 US political bloodstream are generational. One way that I think 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.800 is worth thinking about with the UK versus the US 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.160 is that I think the UK is basically a broken 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.080 economy with a functioning society and political system, and I 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.720 think the US is the opposite. The US is a 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.920 functioning economy with a broken society and political system. You know, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.920 And I think basically, you know, economics can be fixed. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.200 I mean, obviously leaving the EU as a catastrophic disaster, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.160 but you know there's going to be over time closer 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.640 regulatory alignment, and they're going to try to get the 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.440 trade policy closer and closer to what it was in 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:03.080 the EU. Won't be the same, it will still do 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.040 mass damage. But I mean, like social trust still exists 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:08.560 to a pretty high degree here. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:09.480 Right, that's true. 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.000 And on top of that, you know, I mean it 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:12.720 was just it was really indicative to go through the 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.080 pandemic and then go to the US because you know, 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.600 like the guy who is the version of Anthony Fauci 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:20.360 here and then and Chris Whitty, like he's like a celebrity, 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.520 he's like a hero, and like Anthony Fauci has to 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.320 walk around with like, you know, protection because people are 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.840 trying to murder him because they think he concocted COVID, 0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:29.800 and so like this is the kind of stuff where 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:32.440 you just see like mirror images where there's just like 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.640 a generally functioning society based in reality. And I'm not 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.160 I'm not trying to whitewash the UK's problems. It's got 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.200 serious political problems. But like because the BBC is the 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.720 main source of news for people, which like sixty percent 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.960 of people get their news from the BBC, the debates 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.200 start from the perspective of like here's how the world is. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:50.640 A shared reality. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.719 Yeah, like what should we do about it? Whereas like 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.040 when I talk to people about US politics, like you 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.040 start to talk to a Trump supporter and you just 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.880 don't agree on basic principles like who is the president 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.080 who won the election? Right? Like is COVID real? Like 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.040 these are problems that are just so fundamentally different, I 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.000 think in terms of the scale of the debate, and 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:10.719 also I think the state of the media as well. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.680 I mean, the ways that politicians get held to account 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.920 in the British press is savage and it's something that 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.160 we do not do as well in the United States. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.200 No, no question, and we can definitely agree on all 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.800 of those points. So I'm just curious that when we're 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.040 right now talking about the United States, what you're pointing 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.320 to with the BBC, which is something we talk about 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:37.080 a lot, is how do you make sure that the 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.720 information that is linked to is verified and true? 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:41.360 Right? 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.559 I mean, that's the issue, right, I Mean. One of 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.200 the weirdest things that now we're back in the pandemic, 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.360 but I want to talk about it, is this idea 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.640 of COVID. Right, we had this disease. It was Trump, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:57.360 you know, just spread disinformation. A million Americans died. There 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.559 were things that were like laughably bad, Like for example, 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.520 the thing I think the most about is the horse 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.160 de Warmer, right, or the blood pressure medicine, right or no, 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.720 it was a malaria medicine. The malaria medicine or the 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.439 horse to warmer. These were two things that Trump's people 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:18.160 said could cure COVID. Neither of them cured COVID. About 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.000 a year ago, maybe not a year ago, six months ago. 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.040 We had dinner with a friend who's very smart, you know, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.240 advanced degrees, but a right winger. He said he had 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.800 taken horse to warmer when he had COVID. I mean, 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.560 it was insane, right, Like, you're a smart person. Just 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.520 we have an actual medicine that works for COVID. So 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.640 I do think that there's not an agreed upon truth 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.160 in America, which is insane. 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:43.640 Yeah. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.720 And I think this is like the generational challenge that 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.240 I keep pointing to when I when I think about 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.120 US politics is that you know, I hope and and 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.680 still believe that Trump is likely to lose in November, 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:56.720 but I don't think that's going to break the spell 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.160 and change the Republican Party right. 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.240 Of trump Ism. Yeah, I agree. 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:04.040 There's a core question that I think people don't always 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.960 take head on, which is, you know, what explains the 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.960 fact that forty percent of the country still likes him, 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.560 and there's sort of you know, there's two main groups 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.000 of arguments around this. One is that they're bad people, 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.640 right because like choice, you nowhere, like you just you 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.079 like the Fellon, you're racist, et cetera. Right, And that 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.280 explains some of the base, like there's no question that 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.000 these are people are you know, just valueless or have 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.520 values that I simply don't share. But I think there's 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.360 another part of it, the second camp of explanations, which 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.360 is around information flows. British people don't get exposed to 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.120 Fox News, and when they do see it, like when 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.520 I show my classes clips of it, they think it's insane. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.400 They have never seen news that's like this, and the 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.360 right wing equivalent, gb News in the UK is watched 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.600 by a tiny, tiny slice of the electorate. I mean 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.280 it's it's really unpopular, it's hemorrhaging money, et cetera. And 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:51.679 if I could show, you know, one of the things 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.679 I've always wanted to do is like to show Americans, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.120 like what does a BBC radio show look like in 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.200 the morning, And like last week I was listening to 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.839 this labor minister abs grilled about like the minutia of 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.439 housing policy in their manifesto right like down to like details, 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.680 and you're like, where is this in the US, Like 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.840 we don't talk about the sort of nitty gritty of 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:12.600 like what are you going to do if you govern? 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.320 And I think it creates a sense of reality where 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.880 it's like, Okay, there's a real problem. So I think 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:22.240 the information pipelines are one of the biggest generational problems 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:23.920 we have in the United States. And I think it's 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:25.840 something where, you know, if all I did was watch 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.160 Fox News twenty four to seven, you know, I think 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.360 I'd be more sympathetic to Trump too, because you just 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.800 get a warped sense of what's going on and you 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.720 don't see all of the bad news about him. In fact, 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.480 they often you know, sort of just gloss over it 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.319 or don't even report it. So I, you know, I 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.600 think this is the This is the big difference to 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.840 me is that the BBC, which is imperfect. I mean, 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:46.840 I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's something where it 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:51.200 provides this sort of shared base where people say, Okay, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.320 this is what's going on in the world. Now let's 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.880 debate the solutions, which is what democracy has to be. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:57.840 And in the US you have the debate over like 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.600 what is happening, and there's two different persons. He's a reality, 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:01.280 they're competing. 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.880 Yeah, I think that's right, and I also think that 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:08.160 I mean, now at this point, Fox News doesn't have 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.520 the numbers it had in twenty sixteen, but the Fox 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.920 News ethos, you know, streams and podcasts. I mean, Steve 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.360 Bannon has a humongous podcast, The War Room, and Steve 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.320 Bannon is not the same as Joe Rogan, but Joe 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.480 Rogan is a gateway to Steve Bannon, and millions of 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.480 people listen to Joe Rogan. Right, So Joe Rogan is 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:35.080 arguably significantly more meaningful than Fox when it comes to 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.760 shifting the electorate. So Rush Limbo was the biggest voter 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.120 turnout driver that Republicans had. 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.960 He was the get out the vote for Republicans. 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.080 So if you think about it, you know, Fox Rush, 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.120 Now Joe Rogan not necessarily as toxic as Rush, but 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.760 certainly on a similar continuum. There is a real media 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.480 complex that is devoted to pumping up Republicans, which is 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:04.199 such a strange thing if you think about because I mean, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:09.080 I guess it's just an ideological love of not paying taxes, right. 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.880 You're exactly right. I think the decentralization where there's all 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.320 these splinter different outlets and you have, you know, all 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.960 the different right wing TV stations, but also the podcast 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.720 networks and so on. I mean, I think the difference 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.520 though as well, is that the stuff that they're putting 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.560 out is so much crazier than the fringe things that 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.240 happen in Europe or the UK. I mean, you know, 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.320 like Canvas Owens, who's got this big following now, I 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.120 do you know that her latest, you know, thing that 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.400 she's trying to pump is this insane conspiracy theory that 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.960 Brigide Matt Crang is actually a man, right, and it's 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.320 like it's just and it's just like you know, it's 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.880 it's hateful, it's delusional, it's insane, and like in Britain, 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.800 if you were to pump this stuff, you would just 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.600 become a forgotten crack pot, right, I mean, it would 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.000 just it would kill your audience. And even the provocateurists 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.040 who like make their name in British riving politics, like 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.200 they have one foot in reality and they push the limits. 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.760 But the limits are so tame relative to what we're 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.400 talking about. Now, And I mean I think this is 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:04.280 the kind of stuff where, like, you know, Liz Trust, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.240 for example, went on a podcast where the host had 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.920 previously made objectionable comments about women and specifically about one 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.240 female MP, and Liz Trust got condemned by members for 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.920 own party going on a podcast where someone had made 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.880 misogynist comments. I mean the scale of sort of like 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.680 what the boundaries are is so different, right because I mean, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.640 like the Republican presidential cad that has been found liable 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.160 for sexual assault personally, he bragged about assaulting women, Whereas, 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.320 like you know, if you have a politician who's even 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.280 adjacent to someone making misogynistic comments, there's still like consequences 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.240 for them politically in the UK, So this is the 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.840 stuff we're living outside the US. I sort of watched 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.640 these norms moving and they still exist here and the 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.960 system is still really messed up. I mean, the UK 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:51.360 is not a paragon of functioning democracy. It still has 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.480 this kind of you know, reality and consequences and shame 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.000 that I think have broken down and really profound and 0:15:58.080 --> 0:15:59.600 lasting ways in the US. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.120 Thank you so much for coming on. This is really 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:04.160 really interesting. 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:05.240 That's my pleasure. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.240 Spring is here and I bet you are trying to 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.880 look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:20.640 new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:25.200 with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.520 and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com. 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.320 David Wallace Wells is the author of The Uninhabitable Earth 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.000 and a writer at the New York Times. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.520 Welcome back to Fast Politics, David Wells. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.480 Wells, really good to be here to to talk to you. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.320 So you are one of my few favorite climate people 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.320 and we're going to go way back. Well, first, I 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.120 want you to talk a little bit about John Carey 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.040 because that is really disturbing that John Carrey was the 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.320 top climate diplomat and he feels somewhat disappointed. 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.080 So can you talk a little bit about that. 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:06.040 Well, he was basically running Joe Biden's international climate outreach 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.560 for the whole first term. He is kind of a 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.879 weird position, kind of climate diplomatic that never existed before. 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.000 But you know, this is a brave new world we're 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.120 living in, and he was leading the charge and his main, 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.200 you know, focus was in trying to set up these 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:27.040 financing deals that would allow developing countries to afford to 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.200 decarbonize by building out essentially by building out wind and solar, 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.400 but other stuff too, And this is something I think 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.760 many people in the US really don't appreciate. Like wind 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.640 in solar is now cheaper on an average basis than 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.320 dirty energy just about everywhere in the world. But the 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.040 cost of capital, how much it cost to borrow money 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.280 to build one of these solar farms out or to 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:47.480 build out a wind farm. The cost of capital is 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.840 like four times as high in the developing world as 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.000 of this in the rich world, which means that the 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.600 actual expense attached to a particular renewable project is much 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.320 much higher for the poor than it is for the rich. 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.560 And that's for a lot of reasons, you know. But 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.000 it's a huge problem that needs to be solved if 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.040 we want the global South to, as they finally get 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:11.280 onto the electric grid and bring energy to their impoverished citizens, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.320 do it in a clean rather than a dirty way. 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:16.120 And Kerrie was trying to do that with this kind 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.560 of fancy set of financial instruments called jet peas, where 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.040 basically there's like a little bit of philanthropic money put 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.400 out that then sort of tells the private money, it's 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.440 going to be safe to invest here, Like if there's 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.760 this philanthropic money here, you can actually lend these countries 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.800 the money they need to build out their green energy sources. 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.280 And they did it to much fanfare in a bunch 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.000 of countries around the world over the last five years, 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.359 and basically, in no case did it actually work out, Like, 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.280 in no case did it actually deliver a large scale 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.760 private investment spending spree that would allow any of the 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:53.600 countries to dramatically change their course on emissions. And so 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.280 it was, you know, on some level, like a perfect neoliberal, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.080 technocratic approach to the problem of poor countries not being 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.640 able to afford the money they need to build out 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.000 green energy. It seemed in theory at the whiteboard in 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.240 a conference room, you know, in the McKenzie coffee clatch 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:10.919 or whatever, it seemed like it would be a perfect 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.120