1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Well we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 2: We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean we don't have 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: a great show for you today. David Wallace Well stops 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: by updatus on what he's seeing on the climate change front. 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 2: But first we have the author of Fluke, Chance, Chaos 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: and why everything we do matters, Brian Klass. 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 3: Welcome too, Fast Politics. 10 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 4: Brian, it's so great to be back. 11 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 3: You're in the UK. 12 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: I think we must first do two seconds on the UK, 13 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: despite its complete lack of importance in the world, no 14 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: offense or anything, talk to us about what's going on there. Yeah. 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 4: So I'm a dual national now, so I get to 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 4: vote in both the UK and the US elections. 17 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 3: Is that photo fraud? That feels like photo fraud? Now? 18 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 4: I endeavor to do a bye by the rules since 19 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 4: I once sorte a book called how to regular Election, 20 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 4: I have to be sort of careful about that. 21 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 5: No. 22 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 4: But the thing that's interesting about the UK, it's going 23 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 4: to be an electoral landslide for the Labor Party, the 24 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 4: last wing party, And what's really striking here is that 25 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 4: when you screw up a country and when you sort 26 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 4: of fail to govern, people actually change their minds. And 27 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 4: so what you see here is that the Tory base, 28 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 4: the Conservative Party base, has sort of fallen out. I mean, 29 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 4: they're pulling somewhere between seventeen and twenty four percent in 30 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 4: most of the polls, and they won forty six percent 31 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 4: of the votes in the last election, so they've lost 32 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 4: half their vote. And I think this is the thing 33 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 4: that makes me the most depressed about the United States 34 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 4: is that, by contrast, you can have all the stuff 35 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 4: with Trump, you know, thirty four felonies, all the craziness 36 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 4: and all the failures of governance, and he's just at 37 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 4: forty percent always. And I think that's something that speaks 38 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 4: to you know, a rareer statement these days. But the 39 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 4: comparative health actually of British democracy is that when you 40 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 4: wreck the country, there are still electoral consequences here. 41 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going to just push back here, and 42 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: I hate to push back, but you guys are a 43 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: coalition government. I mean, if we were in a coalition government, 44 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: I think we'd be in a totally different place. 45 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 4: That's true, But really there are are two main viable 46 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 4: parties in most UK elections. And I think the other 47 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 4: thing it's worth remembering is that this is something where 48 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 4: the Conservative Party has collapsed. It's not something where you have, 49 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 4: you know, a situation where it's all of a sudden, 50 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 4: you know, there's different coalitions. It's that they've actually lost 51 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 4: half their voters. So in other words, they got forty 52 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 4: six percent last time around, they're probably going to get 53 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 4: like twenty percent this time around. Whereas you know, you're 54 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 4: not seeing that sort of shift in the US, especially 55 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: even among favorability ratings for Trump, right, So like if 56 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 4: you ask people like do you think the Conservatives are good, 57 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 4: those ratings have also collapsed, Whereas if you ask people 58 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 4: do you think Trump is good, they're pretty flat. And 59 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 4: so you know, that's that's the thing again. I mean 60 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 4: Liz Trust was the other instance of this, where she's 61 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 4: completely bankrupted the country, messed the economy up in a 62 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 4: catastrophic way, you know, famously failed to outlive a lettuce 63 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 4: and so on. She had a nine percent approval rating 64 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 4: in the only poll that was taken, because she was 65 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 4: only in power long enough to have one poll taken, 66 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 4: but it was you know, unbelievably unpopular, and that meant 67 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 4: that her own party had turned on her. And I 68 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: think that's what's really striking to me as an American 69 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: living in the UK and now a naturalized British citizen 70 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 4: as well, is that they are still capable of turning 71 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: on their own party. 72 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 3: They're not as partisan as Americans. 73 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 4: Well, I think there's just more of a willingness to 74 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 4: sort of jettison a politician when they objectively screw up. 75 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 4: And I mean, you know, the last sort of fourteen 76 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 4: years of Britain has been one of decline, and so 77 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 4: people are fed up and they're actually changing their minds 78 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 4: and changing their votes. 79 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: I both agree and disagree here, Like I do think 80 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: that one of Trump's superpowers is that he's very charismatic, 81 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: which is Boris Johnson was. I don't want to sound 82 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: like a snob here, but Boris Johnson was like maybe 83 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: a little too intelligent, even though again I feel like 84 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to get roasted for saying this, but like 85 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: he was. I mean, Boris Johnson compared to Trump. 86 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: As like Lincoln. I mean, am I wrong? 87 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: I mean, his policies are terrible, He's completely crazy, but 88 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: I think he is a little less crazy than Trump 89 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: and a little more posh. 90 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 4: I think that's true, But I also think that the 91 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 4: UK electorate would never go for a Trump figure. I mean, 92 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 4: Boris is as close to that that you could possibly get, 93 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 4: because for sure, I mean over here universally, the conversations 94 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 4: that Americans have with British people about US politics is 95 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 4: what is happening? How can you possibly still be flirting 96 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 4: with Trump for a second term. There's just a bafflement, right, 97 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 4: There's this sort of can you please explain to me 98 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: how this person still is in politics, because you know, 99 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 4: there are consequences for scandals in UK politics, even though 100 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 4: there's still scandals, right. It's not like they're politicians who 101 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 4: are free from scandal. It's just that they actually have 102 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 4: consequences and they destroy careers still and they have you know, 103 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 4: sort of inquiries from nonpartisan groups that condemn them, and 104 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 4: then they leave politics and shame still exists Boris notwithstanding. 105 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 4: It's one of the things where whenever I tell people, 106 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 4: you know, that I've become a naturalized British citizen, they 107 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 4: always say, you know, commiserations, you've left one sinking ship 108 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 4: for another, you know, But I do think that the 109 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: UK is sinking less, and I think part of that 110 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 4: is because of what's about to happen on July fourth, 111 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: which is the UK elections, where there is going to 112 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 4: be a I mean, I think this will be a 113 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 4: complete sea change election. I mean we could have one 114 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 4: of the biggest wipeouts of Conservative politicians in living memory, 115 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 4: possibly more than from nineteen ninety seven when Tony Blair 116 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 4: rose to power. To me, this is really indicative of 117 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 4: complete collapse, is that they're like the person who's the 118 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 4: chancellor right now, Jeremy Hunt could lose his seat right 119 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 4: he's like the second in command basically for the party 120 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 4: and he's fighting to maintain his position in Parliament. There 121 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 4: are going to be a lot of senior politicians who 122 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 4: are ousted from politics altogether in this election, which is 123 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 4: not going to happen in the United States come November. 124 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 4: So I think there's some stuff for his glimmers of hope. 125 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: In the UK. 126 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: Every election since twenty sixteen, Trump has lost. So even 127 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: though the polls make it look tight, make it seem tight, 128 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: they're polling this elector we don't know if that going 129 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: to show up or not. Largely Republicans have not really 130 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: won since twenty sixteen, and even when they won the House, 131 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: it was sort of this Ron Lauder sneak in these 132 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: five Republicans in California and in New York State that 133 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: they might be real moderates and not vote for stuff. 134 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: I'm talking about d Esposito and Mike Lawler and a 135 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: bunch of white guys who seem like they might not 136 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: be so bad. So even if the polls say one thing, 137 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: and maybe these polls are correct and maybe we have 138 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: this trumpy election in twenty twenty four that makes us 139 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: all eat our hats. But if you were to just 140 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: look at elections, every single special election since the fall 141 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: of Row has been a fucking shit show for Republicans. 142 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I get that, But the thing is 143 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 4: that there's not been like an electoral blood bass for 144 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 4: Republicans ever. And like, this is something where we're talking 145 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 4: the Tories. So there's six hundred and fifty seats in 146 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 4: the British Parliament and there's a question about whether the 147 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 4: Tories going to win one hundred, right, I mean, this 148 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 4: is the kind of stuff we're talking about. 149 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: But they've been in power for almost twenty years. I mean, 150 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: they left the European Union. Like Trump is a fucking 151 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: moron and a lunatic, But the damage that has happened 152 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: with leaving the EU is harder to effects than Trump. 153 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 5: Well, I don't think I agree with that. 154 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,679 Speaker 1: Do you think they could go back into the EU 155 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: or you think it's not as damaging. 156 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 4: I don't think that the damage is more severe than 157 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 4: Trump is doing to say American democracy and so on. 158 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: I think the problems that Trump is injected into the 159 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 4: US political bloodstream are generational. One way that I think 160 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 4: is worth thinking about with the UK versus the US 161 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: is that I think the UK is basically a broken 162 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 4: economy with a functioning society and political system, and I 163 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: think the US is the opposite. The US is a 164 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 4: functioning economy with a broken society and political system. You know, 165 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 4: And I think basically, you know, economics can be fixed. 166 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 4: I mean, obviously leaving the EU as a catastrophic disaster, 167 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 4: but you know there's going to be over time closer 168 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 4: regulatory alignment, and they're going to try to get the 169 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 4: trade policy closer and closer to what it was in 170 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 4: the EU. Won't be the same, it will still do 171 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 4: mass damage. But I mean, like social trust still exists 172 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 4: to a pretty high degree here. 173 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: Right, that's true. 174 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 4: And on top of that, you know, I mean it 175 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 4: was just it was really indicative to go through the 176 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: pandemic and then go to the US because you know, 177 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 4: like the guy who is the version of Anthony Fauci 178 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 4: here and then and Chris Whitty, like he's like a celebrity, 179 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 4: he's like a hero, and like Anthony Fauci has to 180 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 4: walk around with like, you know, protection because people are 181 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 4: trying to murder him because they think he concocted COVID, 182 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 4: and so like this is the kind of stuff where 183 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 4: you just see like mirror images where there's just like 184 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 4: a generally functioning society based in reality. And I'm not 185 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 4: I'm not trying to whitewash the UK's problems. It's got 186 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 4: serious political problems. But like because the BBC is the 187 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: main source of news for people, which like sixty percent 188 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 4: of people get their news from the BBC, the debates 189 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 4: start from the perspective of like here's how the world is. 190 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 3: A shared reality. 191 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, like what should we do about it? Whereas like 192 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 4: when I talk to people about US politics, like you 193 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 4: start to talk to a Trump supporter and you just 194 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 4: don't agree on basic principles like who is the president 195 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 4: who won the election? Right? Like is COVID real? Like 196 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 4: these are problems that are just so fundamentally different, I 197 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 4: think in terms of the scale of the debate, and 198 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 4: also I think the state of the media as well. 199 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 4: I mean, the ways that politicians get held to account 200 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 4: in the British press is savage and it's something that 201 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 4: we do not do as well in the United States. 202 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: No, no question, and we can definitely agree on all 203 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: of those points. So I'm just curious that when we're 204 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: right now talking about the United States, what you're pointing 205 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: to with the BBC, which is something we talk about 206 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: a lot, is how do you make sure that the 207 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: information that is linked to is verified and true? 208 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 5: Right? 209 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the issue, right, I Mean. One of 210 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: the weirdest things that now we're back in the pandemic, 211 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: but I want to talk about it, is this idea 212 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: of COVID. Right, we had this disease. It was Trump, 213 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: you know, just spread disinformation. A million Americans died. There 214 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: were things that were like laughably bad, Like for example, 215 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: the thing I think the most about is the horse 216 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: de Warmer, right, or the blood pressure medicine, right or no, 217 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: it was a malaria medicine. The malaria medicine or the 218 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: horse to warmer. These were two things that Trump's people 219 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: said could cure COVID. Neither of them cured COVID. About 220 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: a year ago, maybe not a year ago, six months ago. 221 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: We had dinner with a friend who's very smart, you know, 222 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: advanced degrees, but a right winger. He said he had 223 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: taken horse to warmer when he had COVID. I mean, 224 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: it was insane, right, Like, you're a smart person. Just 225 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: we have an actual medicine that works for COVID. So 226 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: I do think that there's not an agreed upon truth 227 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: in America, which is insane. 228 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 5: Yeah. 229 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 4: And I think this is like the generational challenge that 230 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: I keep pointing to when I when I think about 231 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 4: US politics is that you know, I hope and and 232 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 4: still believe that Trump is likely to lose in November, 233 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 4: but I don't think that's going to break the spell 234 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 4: and change the Republican Party right. 235 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 3: Of trump Ism. Yeah, I agree. 236 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 4: There's a core question that I think people don't always 237 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 4: take head on, which is, you know, what explains the 238 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 4: fact that forty percent of the country still likes him, 239 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 4: and there's sort of you know, there's two main groups 240 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: of arguments around this. One is that they're bad people, 241 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 4: right because like choice, you nowhere, like you just you 242 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 4: like the Fellon, you're racist, et cetera. Right, And that 243 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 4: explains some of the base, like there's no question that 244 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 4: these are people are you know, just valueless or have 245 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: values that I simply don't share. But I think there's 246 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 4: another part of it, the second camp of explanations, which 247 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: is around information flows. British people don't get exposed to 248 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 4: Fox News, and when they do see it, like when 249 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 4: I show my classes clips of it, they think it's insane. 250 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 4: They have never seen news that's like this, and the 251 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 4: right wing equivalent, gb News in the UK is watched 252 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 4: by a tiny, tiny slice of the electorate. I mean 253 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: it's it's really unpopular, it's hemorrhaging money, et cetera. And 254 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 4: if I could show, you know, one of the things 255 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 4: I've always wanted to do is like to show Americans, 256 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 4: like what does a BBC radio show look like in 257 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 4: the morning, And like last week I was listening to 258 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 4: this labor minister abs grilled about like the minutia of 259 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 4: housing policy in their manifesto right like down to like details, 260 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 4: and you're like, where is this in the US, Like 261 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 4: we don't talk about the sort of nitty gritty of 262 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 4: like what are you going to do if you govern? 263 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 4: And I think it creates a sense of reality where 264 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, there's a real problem. So I think 265 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 4: the information pipelines are one of the biggest generational problems 266 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: we have in the United States. And I think it's 267 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 4: something where, you know, if all I did was watch 268 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 4: Fox News twenty four to seven, you know, I think 269 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 4: I'd be more sympathetic to Trump too, because you just 270 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 4: get a warped sense of what's going on and you 271 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 4: don't see all of the bad news about him. In fact, 272 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 4: they often you know, sort of just gloss over it 273 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 4: or don't even report it. So I, you know, I 274 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 4: think this is the This is the big difference to 275 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 4: me is that the BBC, which is imperfect. I mean, 276 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 4: I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's something where it 277 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 4: provides this sort of shared base where people say, Okay, 278 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 4: this is what's going on in the world. Now let's 279 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 4: debate the solutions, which is what democracy has to be. 280 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 4: And in the US you have the debate over like 281 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 4: what is happening, and there's two different persons. He's a reality, 282 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: they're competing. 283 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right, and I also think that 284 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: I mean, now at this point, Fox News doesn't have 285 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: the numbers it had in twenty sixteen, but the Fox 286 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: News ethos, you know, streams and podcasts. I mean, Steve 287 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: Bannon has a humongous podcast, The War Room, and Steve 288 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: Bannon is not the same as Joe Rogan, but Joe 289 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: Rogan is a gateway to Steve Bannon, and millions of 290 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: people listen to Joe Rogan. Right, So Joe Rogan is 291 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: arguably significantly more meaningful than Fox when it comes to 292 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: shifting the electorate. So Rush Limbo was the biggest voter 293 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: turnout driver that Republicans had. 294 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 3: He was the get out the vote for Republicans. 295 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: So if you think about it, you know, Fox Rush, 296 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: Now Joe Rogan not necessarily as toxic as Rush, but 297 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: certainly on a similar continuum. There is a real media 298 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: complex that is devoted to pumping up Republicans, which is 299 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: such a strange thing if you think about because I mean, 300 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: I guess it's just an ideological love of not paying taxes, right. 301 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 4: You're exactly right. I think the decentralization where there's all 302 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 4: these splinter different outlets and you have, you know, all 303 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 4: the different right wing TV stations, but also the podcast 304 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 4: networks and so on. I mean, I think the difference 305 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 4: though as well, is that the stuff that they're putting 306 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 4: out is so much crazier than the fringe things that 307 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 4: happen in Europe or the UK. I mean, you know, 308 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: like Canvas Owens, who's got this big following now, I 309 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 4: do you know that her latest, you know, thing that 310 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 4: she's trying to pump is this insane conspiracy theory that 311 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 4: Brigide Matt Crang is actually a man, right, and it's 312 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: like it's just and it's just like you know, it's 313 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: it's hateful, it's delusional, it's insane, and like in Britain, 314 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 4: if you were to pump this stuff, you would just 315 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 4: become a forgotten crack pot, right, I mean, it would 316 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: just it would kill your audience. And even the provocateurists 317 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 4: who like make their name in British riving politics, like 318 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 4: they have one foot in reality and they push the limits. 319 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 4: But the limits are so tame relative to what we're 320 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 4: talking about. Now, And I mean I think this is 321 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 4: the kind of stuff where, like, you know, Liz Trust, 322 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 4: for example, went on a podcast where the host had 323 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 4: previously made objectionable comments about women and specifically about one 324 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 4: female MP, and Liz Trust got condemned by members for 325 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: own party going on a podcast where someone had made 326 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 4: misogynist comments. I mean the scale of sort of like 327 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: what the boundaries are is so different, right because I mean, 328 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 4: like the Republican presidential cad that has been found liable 329 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: for sexual assault personally, he bragged about assaulting women, Whereas, 330 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 4: like you know, if you have a politician who's even 331 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 4: adjacent to someone making misogynistic comments, there's still like consequences 332 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 4: for them politically in the UK, So this is the 333 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 4: stuff we're living outside the US. I sort of watched 334 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 4: these norms moving and they still exist here and the 335 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 4: system is still really messed up. I mean, the UK 336 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 4: is not a paragon of functioning democracy. It still has 337 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 4: this kind of you know, reality and consequences and shame 338 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 4: that I think have broken down and really profound and 339 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 4: lasting ways in the US. 340 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming on. This is really 341 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: really interesting. 342 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 4: That's my pleasure. 343 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: Spring is here and I bet you are trying to 344 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all 345 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store 346 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats, 347 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some, head to fastpolitics dot com. 348 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: David Wallace Wells is the author of The Uninhabitable Earth 349 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: and a writer at the New York Times. 350 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: Welcome back to Fast Politics, David Wells. 351 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 5: Wells, really good to be here to to talk to you. 352 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: So you are one of my few favorite climate people 353 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: and we're going to go way back. Well, first, I 354 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: want you to talk a little bit about John Carey 355 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: because that is really disturbing that John Carrey was the 356 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: top climate diplomat and he feels somewhat disappointed. 357 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: So can you talk a little bit about that. 358 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 5: Well, he was basically running Joe Biden's international climate outreach 359 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 5: for the whole first term. He is kind of a 360 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 5: weird position, kind of climate diplomatic that never existed before. 361 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 5: But you know, this is a brave new world we're 362 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 5: living in, and he was leading the charge and his main, 363 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 5: you know, focus was in trying to set up these 364 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 5: financing deals that would allow developing countries to afford to 365 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 5: decarbonize by building out essentially by building out wind and solar, 366 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 5: but other stuff too, And this is something I think 367 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 5: many people in the US really don't appreciate. Like wind 368 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 5: in solar is now cheaper on an average basis than 369 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 5: dirty energy just about everywhere in the world. But the 370 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: cost of capital, how much it cost to borrow money 371 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 5: to build one of these solar farms out or to 372 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 5: build out a wind farm. The cost of capital is 373 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 5: like four times as high in the developing world as 374 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 5: of this in the rich world, which means that the 375 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 5: actual expense attached to a particular renewable project is much 376 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 5: much higher for the poor than it is for the rich. 377 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 5: And that's for a lot of reasons, you know. But 378 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 5: it's a huge problem that needs to be solved if 379 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 5: we want the global South to, as they finally get 380 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 5: onto the electric grid and bring energy to their impoverished citizens, 381 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 5: do it in a clean rather than a dirty way. 382 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 5: And Kerrie was trying to do that with this kind 383 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 5: of fancy set of financial instruments called jet peas, where 384 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 5: basically there's like a little bit of philanthropic money put 385 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 5: out that then sort of tells the private money, it's 386 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 5: going to be safe to invest here, Like if there's 387 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 5: this philanthropic money here, you can actually lend these countries 388 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 5: the money they need to build out their green energy sources. 389 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 5: And they did it to much fanfare in a bunch 390 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 5: of countries around the world over the last five years, 391 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 5: and basically, in no case did it actually work out, Like, 392 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 5: in no case did it actually deliver a large scale 393 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 5: private investment spending spree that would allow any of the 394 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 5: countries to dramatically change their course on emissions. And so 395 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 5: it was, you know, on some level, like a perfect neoliberal, 396 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 5: technocratic approach to the problem of poor countries not being 397 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 5: able to afford the money they need to build out 398 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 5: green energy. It seemed in theory at the whiteboard in 399 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 5: a conference room, you know, in the McKenzie coffee clatch 400 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 5: or whatever, it seemed like it would be a perfect 401 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 5: solution to this problem. And it just hasn't yet worked. 402 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 5: Maybe it'll work in the future, but it has absolutely 403 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 5: not worked to this point, which means that his big 404 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 5: bet has been basically a failure. As he's exiting this office, 405 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 5: he's being replaced by Avesta. He's talking also a lot 406 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 5: more openly about the villainy of the oil and gas 407 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 5: companies and how much they're standing in the way, which 408 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 5: is a whole other part of the. 409 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: Saga, Which is good that he's doing that, because they 410 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: fucking suck. Yeah, but not to put too fine a 411 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: point on it, obviously. 412 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 5: Yeah, No, you can't overstate they have any of the 413 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 5: oil and gas companies. Looking in the really big picture, 414 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,239 Speaker 5: we're in a much better place than we were, you know, 415 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 5: three four or five years ago. I'm climbing in terms 416 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 5: of rolling out renewables all around the world. We keep 417 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 5: being surprised at how fast it's going, but it's just 418 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 5: going much much faster in the rich parts of the 419 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 5: world than in the poor. And if we really want 420 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 5: to salvage some whole of stabilizing the temperature at a 421 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 5: relatively comfortable level for the future generations, we kind of 422 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 5: need to solve that problem for the global south very fast, 423 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 5: and we don't have a good toolkit at the moment 424 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 5: to do so. 425 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to look at where we are on 426 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: climate and not despair, but there are reasons not to despair, right. 427 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 5: It's sort of both stories at once, Like the rollout 428 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 5: of renewable energy is absolutely astonishing. It's much faster than 429 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 5: almost every forecast said was even possible just a few 430 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 5: years ago. So we're building out much more of the 431 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 5: good stuff, much faster than anybody predicted. We're not yet 432 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 5: drawing down the dirty stuff, and that's the problem. We 433 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 5: can keep at wind and solar, but so long as 434 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 5: we're continuing to burn oil and gas and coal, we're 435 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 5: still doing more damage every year than we've ever done 436 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 5: in the entire history of the planet. Most of the 437 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 5: analysis says that we're about to hit a turning point there. 438 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 5: Maybe it'll be five years from now, maybe it'll be 439 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 5: this year, and we'll have reached a peak. I think 440 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 5: it's kind of like, you know, I'll trust that when 441 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 5: I see it, but it's certainly better than everybody's saying. 442 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 5: We're nowhere near a peak. The problem is that from 443 00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 5: the peak, we have to get all the way down 444 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 5: from the highest level of emissions ever recorded all the 445 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 5: way down to zero, ideally in the space of just 446 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 5: a couple of decades, and however long it takes. We 447 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 5: need to get all the way to zero, not just 448 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 5: halfway or recorders of the way. They're to stabilize temperatures 449 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 5: at any level. So I think there's you know, there's 450 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 5: a there's a hopeful story, and there's a really bleak, 451 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 5: depressing story, and they're both kind of happening at once. 452 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 5: And one of the reasons this, you know, climate is 453 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 5: a little bit hard to wrap your head around, is 454 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 5: that those are some pretty big contradictions to maintain. 455 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: Yes, true, talk to me about China, and then we're 456 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: going to talk about something else that makes me depressed. 457 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 5: Kina is in certain ways a green miracle. They in 458 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 5: the last year have installed more solar power than the 459 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 5: entire rest of the world put together. That's inside China. 460 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 5: They've installed sixty percent of all of the wind power 461 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 5: that's been installed anywhere in the world. And they are 462 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 5: absolutely commanding the entire green energy industrial production economy for 463 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 5: the whole world, which is to say, they are literally 464 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 5: producing five times as many solar pans in China than 465 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 5: the entire rest of the world put together. They're producing 466 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 5: so much battery power right now that they could doubly 467 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 5: supply the world's demand every year. They are doing this 468 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 5: in almost every sector. The big story over the last 469 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 5: few months has been, you know, Joe Biden instituting a 470 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 5: tariff on a lot of these technologies, but most kind 471 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 5: of conspicuously on evs. On the EV's, China has come 472 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 5: out of absolutely nowhere. Like five years ago, they were 473 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 5: hardly producing EV's, they were not exporting any EV's, and 474 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 5: they've since become over the last five years, the world's 475 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 5: largest exporter of all cars, in part because of the 476 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 5: power of electric vehicles, which they are now producing cars 477 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 5: that can drive at ranges considerably longer than any car 478 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 5: on the market in the United States or Europe for 479 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 5: something like ten thousand dollars per car. And that is 480 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 5: from a climate perspectives alone, an incredible miracle which opens 481 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 5: up whole new possibilities for how quickly we could decarbonize transportation. Unfortunately, 482 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 5: it also looks like a potentially mortal threat to the 483 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 5: European and car industries, and so both of those areas 484 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 5: are rather than you know, taking the win on climate, 485 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 5: they're trying to go to war for their industrial sectors, 486 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 5: which maybe they need to do, but you know it's 487 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 5: going to come at a climate cost too, because if 488 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 5: Americans are going to have to pay three times as 489 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 5: much per EV and then almost anywhere else in the world. 490 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 5: We're probably going to be buying many fewer evs than 491 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 5: other countries. 492 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: I would like to have a bright spot here. Enjoy 493 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 1: one of the very few bright spots. Bad for Elon 494 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: mosk or as I call him, Elon Marsh Right. 495 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you know, bu Id is neck and 496 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 5: neck in a couple of recent quarters. They've been ahead 497 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 5: of Tesla as the world's biggest manufacturer of ev is, 498 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 5: and I think they're destined to surpass Tesla. He just 499 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 5: took home what was it, fifty billion dollars? 500 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 3: Would cry, yeah, now fuck them. 501 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 5: But you know, I think a few years ago, especially 502 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 5: the stock price of Tesla, suggested that investors were betting 503 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 5: that the entire global ev market would be supplied by Tesla, 504 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 5: And now it seems vanishingly unlikely that that will be 505 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 5: the case, in part because you know, the world full 506 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 5: of many people who can't afford fifty thousand dollars cars, 507 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 5: and the Chinese automakers are at the moment at least 508 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 5: doing much much better. It's applying the cheap versions. 509 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: Can you explain to us why oil companies their new 510 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: thing is like this pivot to like both and yes, 511 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: you need green, but you also need oil. 512 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: But you really don't fucking need oil. 513 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: This is just bullshit to try to keep them alive, right, 514 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, over. 515 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 5: The next ten twelve years, like probably we're going to 516 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 5: need a bunch more oil because the cars on the 517 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 5: road are not going to be replaced immediately. Maybe that'll 518 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 5: even stretch out to twenty years. But we expect that 519 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 5: we've probably already passed peak global demand for oil. So 520 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 5: the demand is going to decrease over the next few decades, 521 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 5: but it won't be zero anytime soon, because like someone 522 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 5: who bought a car two years ago is still going 523 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 5: to be driving it ten years from now. 524 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 3: But it's going to be a lot lower. 525 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 5: It depends on the country, yeah, I mean certain countries 526 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 5: are going to turn over their their fleet very quickly, 527 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 5: and I think the US is probably going to be 528 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 5: you know, probably fifteen or twenty years even until the 529 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 5: vast majority or but we're heading in that direction. You know. 530 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 5: The argument for coal and gas are a little bit different. 531 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 5: You know, coal I basically think is not economical anywhere 532 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 5: and really is heading for a pretty rapid phase out. 533 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: I mean that was true even ten years ago. It's 534 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: just so expensive all right. 535 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 5: People have different views about gas, as you know, in 536 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,439 Speaker 5: terms of electricity generation and stabilizing the grid. Personally, I 537 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 5: think there are a lot of new technologies coming on 538 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 5: that will allow wind and solar to be much more 539 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 5: reliable than they have been in the past. Battery storage 540 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 5: is getting a lot better, We're going to be doing 541 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 5: a lot with geo thermal. The US is actually making 542 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 5: a huge investment in nuclear. All of these things are 543 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 5: going to be able to provide what's called the baseload dower, 544 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 5: onto which we could stack the kind of intermitt and 545 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 5: relatively less reliable wind and solar stuff and get all 546 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 5: the way to our energy needs. So I personally, I 547 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 5: don't think there's much need for ad natural gas, but 548 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 5: there's still some dispute over that. The answer to your 549 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 5: big question that why do oil companies exist is because 550 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 5: oil is insanely profitable. 551 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 4: You know. 552 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 5: A few years ago, I remember I was on a 553 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,959 Speaker 5: panel with an energy economist who is like, you look 554 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 5: at a barrel of oil, it's like eighty to ninety 555 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 5: percent profit. Still roughly the case today. These are companies that, 556 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 5: even in a moment of systemic decline, as people are 557 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 5: turning away from their product. They are literally producing record 558 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 5: profits year after year after year. This has been a 559 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 5: few straight years of record profits. I don't think that's 560 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 5: going to last for fifty years. I hope it doesn't 561 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 5: last for thirty years. But these are not that are 562 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 5: making decisions on thirty year horizons to making decisions up 563 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 5: one to five year horizons, and on that horizon it 564 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 5: remains an incredibly lucrative business. There was a book that 565 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 5: came out about six months ago arguing that we've wrongly 566 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 5: focused in thinking about climate in general, on the price 567 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 5: of renewables, which are now really low, rather than the 568 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 5: question of profit, and renewables are not generating nearly as 569 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 5: much profit than oil, And if you switch your lens 570 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 5: from thinking about price, where renewables have already basically won, 571 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 5: to thinking about profit, it puts you in a space 572 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 5: of really worrying about just how quickly this transition will 573 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 5: happen and how desperately the oil and gas businesses will 574 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 5: fight to keep it from going going forward as fast 575 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 5: as it otherwise should. 576 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I hate for them to have a tough time. 577 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: But one of the things that Trump promised them, which 578 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: I think is really relevant and is very trumpy is 579 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: He said, if you support me, I will make it 580 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: so there'll be no regulation and you can just fucking 581 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 1: rape the earth as much as you want. Not to 582 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: put too fine a point on it. 583 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 5: It was one of the more naked quid pro quo 584 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 5: offers in American political history. He said, a room of 585 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 5: assembled oil and gas people, if you raise me a 586 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 5: billion dollars, I will write you a blank check in return. 587 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 5: And whoever was in that room, and whatever the size 588 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 5: of the price tag you gave. That is an ugly, 589 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 5: ugly political gesture that almost every politician anywhere in America 590 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 5: at any other point in history would have known better 591 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 5: than to say, oh loud. But Trump obviously did not. 592 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 5: Now exactly what he's capable of doing in a second 593 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 5: term year. I think is it's a complicated and interesting 594 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 5: question because so much of the IRA money and so 595 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 5: much private money chasing those tax incentives is going into 596 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 5: red districts, and to some large degree, red states, which 597 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 5: are often now actually America's clean energy leaders. You know, 598 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 5: North Dakota I think has the highest renewable electricity anywhere 599 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 5: in the country. Texas is just building out wind and 600 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 5: solar like Gangbusters, and In fact, last year there was 601 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 5: an effort in that to try to decap that process 602 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 5: in Texas, and it failed because some Republicans said to 603 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 5: some other Republicans, hang on, we don't want to like 604 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 5: actually raise the electricity bills of our customers and make 605 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 5: it give put them at higher risk of blackouts just 606 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 5: for the sake of the oil and gas business. If 607 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 5: renewables are going to be helping us and helping our 608 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 5: citizens and our voters, let's not stand in the way. 609 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 5: And that is from a market perspective, the state of 610 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 5: play generally, like, if we do not interfere in this market, 611 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 5: renewables will win. They may not win quite as fast 612 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 5: as I might like, but they are going to win. 613 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 5: It is actually the oil and gas business which is 614 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 5: demanding interventions to prevent process. And that is you know, 615 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 5: that means that it's not just Trump withdrawing environmental protections 616 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 5: that that's going to let loose an oil and gas bonanza. 617 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 5: Primary He'll be slow walking stuff that would help the 618 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 5: green stuff proceed. So that means not doing anything about permitting, 619 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 5: not doing anything about all of the local opposition to 620 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 5: renewable energy, and just sort of letting that stand as 621 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 5: a serious obstacle to new build out, and probably it 622 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 5: means that the US in a second Trump term, given 623 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 5: a second Trump term, would be decarbonizing considerably less fast 624 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,719 Speaker 5: than they would second Biden term. But I actually think that, 625 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 5: you know, the market forces are considerably more powerful than 626 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 5: a sort of crude political partisan logic would make you think. 627 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 5: I think that, you know, America is, like everywhere else 628 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 5: in the world, is heading towards clean energy. The question 629 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 5: is not if it's just when you know, the best 630 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 5: thing that Trump could do for oil and gas is 631 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 5: not to stop that revolution, it's just to slow it. 632 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 5: And exactly how capable he is about given how capable 633 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 5: he is doing anything, is you know, a huge open question. 634 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 635 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to take that to the bank, 636 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: because that fucking guy, he's got smart people trying to 637 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: explain to him how to do stuff now in a 638 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: way that he didn't before. 639 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 5: The Heritage Foundation Project twenty twenty five stuff really ugly 640 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 5: and scary on climate. It's really ugly and scary in 641 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 5: every category. But the question is whether that will actually 642 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 5: be the playbook that is put into place, or whether 643 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 5: Trump governs a lot more like you did in the 644 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 5: first term, you know, running around as a desperate, resentful 645 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 5: score settler. You know, my guess is it's some mix 646 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: of both. Even as I think you're wise to say 647 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 5: I'm not going to take my David Well as well 648 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 5: as those reassurances to the bank, I also wouldn't take 649 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 5: the Project twenty twenty five playbook to the bank as 650 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 5: a guarantee. 651 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: What I think the top line on the twenty twenty 652 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: five stuff is that the Heritage Foundation has been taken 653 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: over by complete lunatics. 654 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 5: Well, the whole party has, really Yeah. 655 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: But the Heritage used to be like the last fashion 656 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: of normal in that party, and that is no more 657 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: the case. 658 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 5: Of the future we're staring down. 659 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, would you talk for a minute about like, there 660 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who listen to this podcast 661 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: who just would like to have some sort of concrete 662 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: stuff they should be doing when it comes to climate. 663 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, honestly, heading into an election season, I 664 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 5: think voting and campaigning is the most important thing that 665 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 5: we can do in America at an individual level. If 666 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 5: you want to shrink your carbon footprint, if you want 667 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 5: to live within your values and think of yourself as 668 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 5: a climate person who is doing right by the future 669 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 5: of the planet. The main things that you can do 670 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 5: to reduce your carbon footprint are fly commercial, I mean 671 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 5: I'm not fly honestly, not fly fly yeah, not fly 672 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 5: driving ev if you can, and not eat red meat. 673 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 5: And those are really like by far the biggest contributors 674 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 5: to the carbon footprints of most relatively well off Americans. 675 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 5: You can also do carbon offsets for your fly to 676 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 5: some extent for your cars too, but they're pretty unreliable. 677 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 5: So like, I do them when I fly, but I 678 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 5: also know that like they don't actually cover my. 679 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: Guilt, but they make you feel a little better, a. 680 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 5: Little bit better. And there are bees and worst ones 681 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 5: that you know you can you can get into the 682 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 5: research on that as much as you like or not 683 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 5: as much as you like. These days, you in most 684 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 5: airlines do have like a little button when you're checking 685 00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 5: out that say if you know, if you'd like to 686 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 5: offset the carbon cost of this, click here, But most 687 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 5: of those are pretty unreliable. That's a bit like if 688 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 5: you're worrying about what you're doing, the things that you 689 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 5: can that you should focus on our air travel, internal 690 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 5: combustion engine vehicle driving, and red meat. 691 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also not drinking bottled water right or now? 692 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: Is that a rounding era? 693 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: I don't know. Tell me I need to now. 694 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 5: You know, I've gotten considerably more worried about plastic pollution 695 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 5: over the last couple of years. When I when I 696 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 5: wrote my book five years ago or so, I actually 697 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 5: had a few lines in there that called it just 698 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 5: like a red herring and a distraction. But it's become 699 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 5: much more central to the way that I think about 700 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 5: how we're despoiling the planet. We now see microplastics in 701 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 5: freshly fallen Arctic snow. We found them in the deepest 702 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 5: depths of the Mariana Trench, in you know, the deepest 703 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 5: parts of the ocean. They actually got there before human 704 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 5: explorers got there. We find them in you know, in 705 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 5: mother's milk, on the inside of placentas, in sperm, in testicles. 706 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 5: It's like everywhere. If you cut open your arm, there 707 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 5: would be lots of microplastics there. 708 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 4: No. 709 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 5: I know, you know, we don't know exactly what they're 710 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 5: doing to us. I think, you know, the fact that 711 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 5: we're not all immediately dropping answer suggests that, you know, 712 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 5: it's not like an apocalyptic, you know, extinction kind of event. 713 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 5: But it is also quite strange to take seriously the 714 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 5: idea that none of us, anywhere on the planet are 715 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 5: avoiding this kind of contamination. It's pretty mind bending to 716 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 5: try to reckon with what it means for our sense 717 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 5: of autonomy that we are all of us passing through 718 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 5: a contagion field of pollution, navigating our way through that, 719 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 5: thinking we are in control of our lives, but actually 720 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 5: having many aspects of our health, cognitive performance, you know, 721 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 5: economic well being determined by these forces of pollution which 722 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 5: are well beyond our individual control. And I worry a 723 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 5: lot about, you know, the contribution of plastics to that problem. 724 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 5: We'll see the next five or ten years. I think 725 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 5: you're going to tell us a lot in the science, 726 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 5: but at the moment, I would just say I would 727 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 5: rather be living on a planet where every single living 728 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 5: being was not already contaminated by microplastics than the one 729 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,239 Speaker 5: in which when we're living on now, where every one 730 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 5: of us is, you know, to our core, already a 731 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 5: kind of a hybrid being human and pollution of the 732 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 5: same time. 733 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: Our human evolution at the same time. Thank you, David Wallace. 734 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 5: Well, thank you. 735 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 736 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds 737 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 738 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 739 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.