WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 19 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:31.400 can make your own decisions. What's meta my verse? This 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.960 is it could happen here a podcast entirely dedicated to 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.559 the metaverse um, which is the promise of the human future. 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.240 Um on with me as always is my co host, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:48.919 Mark Zuckerberg. I don't I don't know how talks. I'm 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.280 not sure how. I don't know who the voice you 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:56.840 were doing, I guess he sounds like nothing like no 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:05.240 one but the absence of a soul when it's dial up. Yeah, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.080 that's what's going on inside his head in any moment 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.200 when he's not actively making the Internet worse. It's just 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:19.360 a dial tone in there. Awesome, Garrison, what are we 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.240 talking about today? Well, yeah, we're gonna be talking about 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.559 the metaverse and how how it's different from what people 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.000 talk about it as and yeah, it's it's gonna be, it's, 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:32.960 it's gonna it's gonna touch on a variety of things, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.280 split up into two parts. Um, but first I would 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.880 like to paint you a picture with words, a word picture. 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:46.200 So you're a wickture. Yeah, You're walking walking through your 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:50.600 favorite grocery store. There's you know, cards passing by, horrible, 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.560 horrible music playing. It's the lighting is white and and 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.520 like overexposed and under exposed at the same time. It's 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.280 it's it's hard, it's hard to see. And this, uh, 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.760 this like a person who looks like an employee keeps 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.000 keeps popping up and trying to take you to different 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.000 sections of the store. You're trying to just ignore her. 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.680 It's very annoying. All you need to get is the 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.840 stuff you have on a little list, and it's it's awful. Um. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.000 Eventually you get so fed up with this whole experience 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.440 that you take out, You go to where the wine 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:24.200 bottles are, You take them out and you arrange them 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.520 into a giant penis on the floor, because that's the 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:28.360 only thing you can do because you're not actually in 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.360 a store. You're in your living room, and you have 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.720 a horrible headset on, and you're trying to do shopping 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:37.399 in a virtual in a virtual grocery store. Um. And 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.919 that's that's the actual kind of scope of what we're 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.440 gonna be talking about today is virtual marketplaces and how 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.040 they interact with seemingly real marketplaces. Yeah, I'm sure this 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.000 is inspired by there were a couple of videos that 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.840 dropped recently, one of them from I think Walmart. We're 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.440 gonna be talking, We're gonna be We're gonna be talking 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.840 about it. So yeah, So a couple a couple of 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.000 days after New Year of It, you went viral across 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.600 the social media's ranking, up over like eleven million views 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.520 on Twitter um, and it was titled how Walmart envisions 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.840 shopping in the mold in in the metaverse. Now, So 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.000 what followed was like two minutes of an embarrassing like 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.720 VR jank, including like throwing around virtual gallons of milk 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.400 from your cart into a virtual fridge many many dunks 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.160 are made. Fun was had, But what few people probably 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:27.240 realized is that like this, actually this this wasn't a 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.679 Walmart metaverse test store. This was actually a five year 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.560 old tech demo from before non Neil Stevenson fans even 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.240 knew what the term metaverse meant. So a few years back, 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.800 a tech company called a Mutual Mobile partnered with Walmart 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.839 for a project set to quote reimagined retails virtual Reality. Now, 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.280 that sounds very fancy and important, but considering this was 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.760 five years ago and you're not hearing about it until now, 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:56.120 shows how impactful this thing actually was. The first stated 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.280 goal of the tech demo, according to the Mutual Mobile website, 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:04.480 was to impressed influencers at south By Southwest teen. So 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.360 you know, just like the so called metaverse is now, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.640 this is largely a promotional project um and a way 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.040 to attract investors. This was this was never actually a 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.719 serious thing. It's I'm gonna say it right now. South 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.440 By Southwest was always one of the stupidest things in 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.960 the world. Um. And when it comes back, it will 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:26.279 be still because it's stupid. It's a stupid place for 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.640 the most insufferable people in the world to come and 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.280 talk about technology. Some people also listen to music, that's fine, 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.520 so yeah. For For the For the experience itself, they 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.360 used an original Oculus rift and programmed roughly like four 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:45.560 minute linear um expedition into a barren, hellish digital Walmart 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.240 where you pick up and throw it did it did 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.560 sound exactly. My favorite thing about this video is they 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.560 were clearly using the audio of some sort of like 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.760 shooter game, because it was often like things would it 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.000 would sound like you were in like fucking doom going 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:04.560 through a portal. Extremely it was bad, like hell, you'll 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.200 you'll pick up and throw fake wine bottles into your 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.040 blue digital cart, and the whole thing ends with a 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.120 fake drone delivering an eight hundred dollar TV that you 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:16.880 fake purchased. It's it's not great. What Mutual Mobile and 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.320 Walmart were trying to do. They have a constatement on 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.480 their website back from it was they said that Walmart 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.960 envisioned unvailing a fully virtual shopping experience that puts shoppers 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.320 inside the store without ever leaving their homes. To attract 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.720 customers and to spell the misconception that they're not as 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:36.280 advanced as their more digital counterparts, brick and mortar establishments 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.159 are not only accelerating investments in areas like web and mobile, 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.880 they're also exploring the very edge of emerging technology. Walmart 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.719 of virtual reality is a case some point potential shoppers 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.120 can virtually pick up products, read labels, talk to virtual associates, 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.080 and fill their shopping carts. But the goal wasn't just 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.320 to create something interactive. Walmart needed something that showed the 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.240 potential of VR in retail while putting them ahead of 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.039 the competition. So I mean this was like this was 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.960 this was kind of ahead in some ways, but also 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.239 ahead in the ways that it's kind of showing how 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.240 not useful. This example is so obviously like this five 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.239 year old video resurface now due to Zuckerberg and Epic Games, 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.240 you know, forcing an AstroTurf metaverse into the cultural zeitgeist, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.840 coupled with their you know, conflation of anything VR to 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.919 the legendary metaverse, right, because VR does not equal metaverse, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.159 nor is it nor is it necessarily vice versa. But 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.880 now these terms are getting used so interchangeably that someone 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.159 can stumble across this video will be like, oh, look 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.280 at this metaverse store, when like, it's it's not it's 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.400 just a it's just a VR text. The metaverse in 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.640 order to be like the thing that people have been 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.520 imagining through cyberpunk since like the nineties, it needs to 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.680 be persistent and interact directly with the real world in 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.320 a number of ways, like it it's it's it's well, 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.799 we'll get into we'll get into kind of what metaverse 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.359 could be in the future in terms of like the 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:02.160 it could happen here idea, and then not just a metaverse, 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.080 but a series of metaverse is what they could be, 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.880 and how that kind of con negates the original idea 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.360 of it in the first place. But um, when asked 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.440 by Vice News about the resurgence of their Walmart project, 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.760 Mutual Mobile replied, the vision of a virtual shopping experience 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:20.640 we helped Walmart realize back in tween stands validated in 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.000 the metaverse era of today. This whole experience has only 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.280 encouraged us to keep experimenting, innovating, and leading the charge 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:31.680 with cutting edge tech. So I mean, considering most of 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:38.600 the virality of this was people joking about it, I yeah, sure, okay, okay, 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.400 Mutual good good luck with that. So a few days 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.600 after the Walmart video went viral, rumors of another big 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:51.840 box store going metaverse started to circulate again, accompanied by 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.480 a video of a possible like three D metaverse storefront. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.280 Reports emerged, starting in India claiming that H and M 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.600 had announced that it would offer its customers a three 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.080 dimensional shopping experience in its a virtual store inside the 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.600 metaverse via something called now. I don't know if it's 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.800 keik City or seek City. Um, I'm not really comfortable 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.920 saying either of those things because they sound weird, but 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.840 I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with Sik City. That's something. 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:23.000 It's a little bit better. I know, I know it's sound, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.280 but it sounds like it's a slur. So I'm gonna 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:31.320 say Seek, but it's it's see k um. So this 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.720 This account on on Twitter called us seek VR shared 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.400 the following from its official Twitter account, Shopping in the 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:42.480 Metaverse with seek coin. Concept VR store, presented to H 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.679 and M by Seek creates mainstream use cases for sek 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:50.439 coin and scaling virtual reality beyond games. So I'll get 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.760 into what seek is in a bit. But the report 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:54.480 said that customers would be able to walk through the 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:57.400 store choose the apparel they wanted to purchase in the 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.360 Sikh City universe. Um. Although the clothes could only be 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.320 a warn in the digital environment, payment would be made 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.599 with seek coin and customers could have the opportunity to 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.440 order the same apparel from H and m's physical stores later. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.760 But that's you're buying two separate things. One of us 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.640 the digital skin, one of its an actual, you know, 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:20.120 real thing. Um so what a seek Zeek was launched 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.760 in eighteen. It's a metaverse coin pop project built on 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.320 the Ethereum blockchain and their their their goal is to 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.200 connect artists, athletes, and other digital content creators directly with 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:36.040 their fans and virtual worlds. Seeks n f T marketplaces 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.480 is designed to enable real ownership of the in which 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.440 I would actually want. That is, if it's me having 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.640 a very sexual zoom chat with Pitt. You know what, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:51.320 we don't need to garrison, please continue, okay and quoting 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.280 from sisubside. Seek currently offers a range of immersive VR 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.959 experiences within Seek City, including theater, concert arenas, sports complex, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.160 hang out lounge and more and all the things you 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.320 can do in your real home, but weird and on 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:12.079 the internet. This is horrible, and I see a potential 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.320 appeal for people who are like out in the sticks 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.920 or in parts of the world where they're not they 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.240 feel not like they're very politically or whatever disconnected, which 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.600 is the same thing the Internet already does. I'll talk 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.920 about it being in VR will make it better. I 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.320 don't know. I've lived in the middle of nowhere and 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.839 relied on the Internet to be social, and I don't 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.600 think I would have wanted to change the Internet in 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:38.440 for this because it sounds yeah anyway, I'll talk about 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.320 use cases in a sec. But yeah, So end users 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.880 will be able to use seek token to make purchases, 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.720 vote for content control programming a much more after token launch, 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.520 seek VR, in partnership with Universal Music, can realize live 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.120 performances of world famous artists such as Bong Jovi, Lady Gaga, 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.080 You Too, Sting, and many more can take place on 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.240 this platform. So seek is like it's it's kind of 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:06.680 the startup, but it's been around for a while. It's 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.880 trying to do like you know, virtual venues inside the metaverse. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:15.319 They they do have contracts with Universal so it's it's 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.160 it's a mix of trying it's it's a mix of 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:20.400 this coin, so it's a mix of this like cryptocurrency, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.800 also trying to use this cryptocurrency in this world. They're 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:28.880 trying to build up um there. Their their their roadmap 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.760 to metaverse right now. First thing is like payment integration, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.360 so using sea coin, they want sea Coin to be 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.679 the coin for everything in the metaverse. They want all 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.560 of the metaverse be based off this thing that they 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.480 invented called sea coin because it will make them money. Um. 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.840 Next thing they want to do is create a creator 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:48.400 enabled ecosystem, so kind of copy the content creator thing 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.880 we have right now, poured that into the metaverse. But 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.640 again have everything. You know, you can invest in your 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.439 creators so you can vote on what they do using 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.360 sea coins and all of we talk about like the 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.800 personal ownership in the previous episode. But then a lot 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:05.920 of it, you know, they have like an n FT marketplace, 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.480 Avatar marketplaces, etcetera, etcetera. But a lot of this stuff 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.520 is built around like concerts, you know, venues, you know, 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:18.480 a lounge, movie theaters where you can do stuff in VR. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.560 That is like that is the main the main thing 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.640 that Seek is trying to do. They do have this 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:30.080 one one quote somewhere, oh yeah, the future milestone. So 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.240 after they achieve this Seek metaverse where everything is ran 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.640 through Seek, all of like you know what, whether you're 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.200 on Oculus, whether you're on Vibe, all of it gets 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.960 run through Seeks. It's one one multiverse, sorry, one metaverse. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.760 Their their future milestones are quote a VR Space Academy. 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.960 They do not do not say what that means, um 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.680 KIEK Studios again kind of unclear. I'm guessing like original content. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.079 And then the last one is a blockchain metaverse alliance. 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.520 Those are their those are their three big future milestones 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.200 after they get there there. What was that last one? 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:10.960 Blockchain metaverse alliance? I mean, this was like in the 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:12.679 Facebook thing to write the idea that we're going to 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.800 integrate n f t S. But it was also clearly 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.520 just like they tossed that in there on the Facebook one, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.160 there was no evidence they thought seriously about n f 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.840 t S or blockchain. It was just had gotten big 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.000 while they were preparing the things, so they tossed them 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.480 in there. Um, I I get the idea, right, Like 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.480 the thing that they keep pitching with this is that 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.400 you'll be able to have an item in one game 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.600 that is yours. The company doesn't own it, you can 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.880 take it to other games, which anyone who makes games 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.080 will tell you was fucking nonsense. It's something like that 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.320 might be vaguely possible in a metaverse where everything was 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:49.319 forced to use the same engine. Um and all everyone 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.800 was also forced to abide by a bunch of strict 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:57.960 rules by Facebook. Um. That Also, that's probably violating antitrust laws. Um. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.600 And also it seems like a ridicul ulously Sysiphisian task 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.800 with no real benefit. I don't think anyone's going to 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.959 do it, but I'm guessing that's what they're referring to 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.400 when they want to jam the blockchain up in the 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.240 fucking metaverse? Like what else could it be? The blockchain 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.520 Metaverse Alliance, all of the blockchains the metaverse is gonna 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.520 aligned into. Yeah, like they don't want to put all 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.839 of the metaverse stuff. You want to wear this shirt 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:26.040 in the metaverse. So, just like the real world, the freedom, 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.120 the freedom of the internet catch you feel. It's the 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.360 ever expanding possibilities. I do love because they keep talking 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.960 about within the context of metaverse games like you'll get 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.600 to unlock a character that's just yours and nobody else 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.720 can play it, and they'll have special abilities that means 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:40.920 he wins all the time. It's like, why would people 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:44.640 play that game? I think it was Business Insiders someone's 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.400 article talking about how neat it would be for games 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.160 to work this way, and like, think of all the 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.800 money you'd make people wanting to watch your character wins. 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.880 People don't want to just like watch a guy who's 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.480 structurally unable to lose because he he bought the right 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.840 character in a racing game win every race. That's not 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:04.640 No one's going to pay to watch that. Do you 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.720 understand what people watch races for? Like now anyway, well, 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.480 let's hear from our good friends at our products and 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.760 services before we come back and talk more about seek coins. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.240 I guess I don't know. All right, we are back, 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.000 So yeah, zee coins virtual reality spaces run on smart 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:33.040 contracts through the through the Bayans smart chain and there 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.880 there there run the run through the Ethereum blockchain. UM. 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:44.000 So the the there's about seven and seven forty four 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:48.120 millions seek coins and supply. The maximum supply capacity is 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.120 capped at one billion coins. Uh Sea coins peaked at 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.000 one one dollar and sixteen cents a year ago after 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.520 launching and around four cents um. They're currently being traded 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.240 for around sixty cents. So that's that's what actual sequens doing. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.880 Like like like people do use this's not many people 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.400 like they they do have these contracts with with with 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.120 Universal Music UM. But before this h and m thing, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.200 I I never heard of Seek coins. Um. So, two 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.080 days after the rumors began circulating that H and M was, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.280 you know, partnering with Seek, H and M said Nope, 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.880 we did not, we are we are not doing this, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.520 but they did not close the door in future possibilities. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.840 They said, uh, we we we like to we'd like 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:32.600 to confirm that H and M is not is not 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.600 opening a store in the metaverse at this time. We're 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.080 also not collaborating with Seek. So the official Twitter account 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.600 for Seek subsequently clarified later on that the store that 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.880 they were doing was just a concept that was presented 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.520 to H and M and not a not a launching 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.480 virtual store yet. Um. But they do they do say 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.280 that they're in discussions with H and M to make 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.040 this a reality, but it's not a reality as of now. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.560 So this this kind of begs the question like, what 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.880 about a three D digital space is superior to a 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.360 two D digital space for simple tasks like shopping online. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.440 So once you start, you know, unfolding questions like this 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:14.240 about the Internet metaverse a r VR, you there are 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.480 more the conternal sides to this than you would have 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.800 initially estimated. Um. But first off, before we kind of 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.480 have this discussion, we should split this into two categories. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.119 One for shopping for like real physical items that you 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.760 plan on like receiving in person, and then digital items 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.240 that don't physically exist and are just just on your 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.600 computer and monitor. So obviously, like there's no clear advantage 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:40.240 in most cases to traversing an isolated virtual environment in 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.239 order to order food as opposed to just scrolling through 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.200 a web page. Um, but once you expand out of 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:52.160 the confines of VRS sensory deprivation three three D technology 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.000 in a r SO augmented reality does actually have some 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.399 useful prospects, including some that are already in use. Um. 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.359 Amazon and Ikea, for example, will have options on their 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.000 perspective websites and apps that can like project furniture options 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.479 into your living space, so you can that's the kind 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.359 of thing that has some future. I think. Yeah, so 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.800 it is currently this is being done on your phone screen, 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.160 but in a R glasses application of this actually serve 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.520 its purpose quite well because something something that people would want. Yeah, yeah, 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.520 the phone screen version is pretty mediocre and these are 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.840 and that's kind of the thing the place where at 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.560 I we make fun of this stuff a lot because 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.240 most of its nonsense. There are there are really there's 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.159 a lot of potential in some of these ideas, but 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.119 there's their potential for like and the same level that 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.199 the air fryer has potential where it's like a thing 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.800 a bunch of people will buy, but it's not. None 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.040 of this yet is stuff that's going to completely change. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.240 Like you might get a few million people to to 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.520 get these glasses and or this app made these classes 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.200 for a couple of reasons, but who would use this 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.200 this app to like help plan out how they're setting 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:54.840 up their houses. You might get a few million people 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:56.760 who do that. It's not going to be like an 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.760 iPod or an iPhone or or like Facebook that no 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.320 one's had figured that out yet. There's there's some neat 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.520 products that are going to be valuable, but we're still 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.320 on the stage where nobody's under nobody's figured out fundamentally 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.600 what people want from this, as opposed through like tiny 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.440 specific needs in the same way that like there was 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.400 a number of futurists who quite add accurately figured out 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.680 with a smartphone, like, oh, people want a thing that 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.760 will give them access to all of the knowledge and 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.119 ideas in the world and also let them yell at 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.639 anybody anytime they want. Like, that's something that is going 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.280 to be incredibly successful, and it has and it's changed 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.800 the entire world. Zuckerberg was like, people want to be 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.960 able to be racist faster, and by god, we wanted 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.760 it and and that was huge. Um, I don't like 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:45.600 these are It's a good idea, like, yeah, let people 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:47.840 scope out how their room is gonna look when they're 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.320 shopping or whatever through a r But we haven't yet 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.399 hit that this is going to change the world, because 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.760 being slightly better at using Ikea will not change the world. Yeah. 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.200 I think as an avid air fry air hater, I 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.919 do think comparing metaverse to the air fryer is actually 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.280 which I love to say to Garrison. I know Garrison 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.600 hates it when I use the air fryer. Fer mhm 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:18.760 anti air frier action is my new tattoo. They screech 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.800 like the person at the end of Invasion of the Body. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:33.359 But my goodness, do they cook my food faster? Fried 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:37.920 it with the air Wow? Almost like it's impossible anyway. Um. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:45.120 Mutual Mobiles Digital Marketing shot Agis talked with Vice after 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.480 the Walrut video went viral, and he explained that like 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:50.480 the demo was made to show the potential of virtual 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.440 reality and shopping experiences that they can have for you know, 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:57.320 different people, UM, including its ability to connect like elderly 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.959 people or people with disabilities to a shopping experience from 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.120 the comfort of their own home, something that he thinks 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:04.800 might even be you know, attractive to people who have 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.440 been through several rounds of COVID quarantine. And I can 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:13.879 kind of understand this last argument. You know, during early quarantine, 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.840 I definitely used my VR headset more often than I 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.600 had before. UM and with our alienated capitalist world, I 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.000 can see the use of walking around a digital store 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:25.359 if you're stuck at home, um, due to something like 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:26.760 a plague, or if you know, if you have a 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:28.800 physical or mental reason that makes you know, going to 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.680 a story difficult. Because but like it's yes, this this 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:37.000 can help that. But also this is always very religed 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:38.440 on how these types of stores are set up and 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:40.560 how these stories like affect your brain. It's like a 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:42.600 big part of going to the grossery store and what 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:44.680 it's designed to do. Let's make it so that we're 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.520 not just following a shopping list. There's like a structured 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.640 joy of discovery. Everything about the design to the store 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.840 is to get you to buy things you didn't think 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:55.639 you needed before you walked in, and we're trained from 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.200 birth to like to find this process pleasurable. So in 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.879 that way, walking around a VR like wal Mart or 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.680 H and M might actually make some people happy despite 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.080 that being sad and dystopian if you stop and think 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:10.200 about it, right, like, because that's that's actually like it's 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.639 a it's a very capitalist thing, but it does make 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:14.480 us happy because that's that's what we've been trained to 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:18.560 do since we're babies. So that there's there is that 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:20.080 side of it for in terms of like, yeah, I 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:22.240 can see if I really don't want to leave the house, 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:24.000 but I want to get the experience of walking through 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.440 a place, maybe I will walk through a Target to 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.240 get groceries. I don't know as some people maybe it 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.600 might do that, but otherwise, you know, it's much It 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.879 is much simpler and easier to just scroll through a 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.200 two dy thing on a web page and and and 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.200 and do the things you need. That's the thing, Like 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.199 it's like, yeah, I mean absolutely because I I when 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.160 I was making fun of one of these videos, somebody 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.000 like called it out as being ablest and was like 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.120 fixing all the use as this as for a disabled person, 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.240 if they can use this, they can use Amazon. And like, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.200 as a person who sometimes I don't shop for groceries 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.560 at Amazon, but I've shop for groceries online. It's fine. 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:02.560 The it's it's everything it needs to be. You can 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.320 get your groceries online, and the metaverse is just going 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.679 to make it like weird and off putting and unnecessarily complicated, 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.960 because at the moment, I can get groceries with my 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.760 phone while I'm like jogging um or as I'm like 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.560 sitting in traffic, or like while I'm on a zoom 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:21.520 call listening to Garrison talk about the metaverse as opposed 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:23.960 to putting on a headset and like doing the same 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:28.000 thing basically as driving there, but more expensively. Anyway, are 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:32.720 you for shopping right now? I am ordering sevent cans 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:37.280 of ZeVA and forty pounds of raw beef, the normal 0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:42.200 week's worth of food for me, And that's literally like 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:45.399 two days for him. See but Robert, you could be 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:47.960 doing this while wearing a bucket on your head and 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.879 walking around a fake store. I could wear a bucket 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:52.800 on my head to the real store. They can't stop me. 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:59.120 I usually wear a bathrobe. This is the first half. 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.879 For it's like, you know, buying actual physical items you 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.440 plan to receive in stores, you know, furniture. It's actually 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.359 kind of makes sense. Uh food, It's a little bit iffy. 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.680 The only kind of consideration there is if people want 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:13.320 the mental effect of walking around a store, if they 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:15.639 find that pleasurable, then it's a thing. But you know, 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:17.600 it's way more efficient to just scroll through your phone. 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.640 Um As for the other side, buying virtual items, whether 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:23.760 they be you know, n f t s, video game 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:28.160 skins or super special exclusive VR hangout rooms, I don't 0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:30.359 give a funk how this works. If you want to 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:32.560 walk around a VR vault about your VR art and 0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:36.359 your VR clothes, knock yourself out. I buy Sonic the 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:38.359 Hedgehog games. We all have our weird things we do 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:42.640 that don't make any sense. Yeah, if that's if these 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.800 procery stores are just gonna be like the seven weirdest 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:50.440 people in the country Masturbannings. They buy wine and milk. 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:54.040 That's the thing, Robert I was when I was when 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.200 I was doing the digital picture. In the beginning, I 0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:58.880 had two scenarios, one where you align the bottles into 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:00.320 a deck. The other one I was going to say, 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:02.800 you take off your pants and start masturbating, and I 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.000 decided not to do that one. So I'm happy that 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.520 because because yeah, that is the actual use case for this, 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:11.919 is that someone people are gonna be walking around these 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:15.480 fake walmarts just all cherking off. That's what's gonna happen there. 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:18.479 They're gonna have this animation of a real, real female 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:20.440 employee of theirs who like pops up when you do 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:23.119 something you're not supposed to do and explain something to you. 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:25.560 And it's going to be impossible to remove initially, and 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:27.400 people are going to turn it into a whole weird, 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:30.480 horny thing, and like they will appear in all these circumstances, 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:32.439 it's gonna go it's going to be the only thing 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:34.879 that goes viral, Like it's gonna be the only thing 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.920 people remember five years later about the first of these 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:39.720 This is I'm I'm gonna start go back to this 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:41.879 towards the end of part two, but this is the 0:25:41.920 --> 0:25:44.760 actual way to handle the metaverse, because we're gonna this 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:47.360 this thing is going to be forced on us one 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:48.800 way or another. We're gonna have a form of it, 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:51.320 and honestly, the best thing we can do with it 0:25:51.440 --> 0:25:55.040 is either ignore it, ignore it, or maybe more attractively, 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:57.119 is to funk with it. Like that's gonna be the 0:25:57.240 --> 0:25:59.080 thing that's gonna be the thing to do. There was 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.639 an article a few days ago that headline is Final 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:09.080 Fantasy porn interrupts Italian Senate zoom event. Someone someone joined 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:13.320 in and started playing poured from Final Fantasy seven, Like 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:18.119 this is to do. This is the way that we 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.840 need to do it. If there's gonna be dumbass like 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:25.720 meetings on the Zuckerberg metaverse, people need to go in 0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:29.280 and make it weirdly horny. Yeah, Garrison, I could not 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.399 agree more that that's the what you need to do, 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:36.840 citizens of the Internet is look up something awful habo 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:39.840 h A B b O hotel. That's the kind of 0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:42.840 ship that we need to be doing in fucking um 0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.600 in in the there was basically a children's video game, 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:48.640 was an early kids MMO and a bunch of weird 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.840 adults and something Awful decided to create an unsettling cult 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:54.920 of people who all looked identical and marched around doing 0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:57.440 all of these weird, unsettling things in a children's game. 0:26:57.720 --> 0:27:01.720 It was very fun um like or or like in 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:04.200 a in second life when it was the new big 0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:08.200 sexy thing there was. This was very self important tech writer, 0:27:08.600 --> 0:27:11.399 investor type person who was doing a Q and A 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:15.000 and people just like animated thousands of floating penises going on. 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:17.920 This is this is gonna be the thing. This is 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.160 what you we're gonna have to do because in order 0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:23.760 because if it's gonna be this horrible corporate hell, the 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:25.400 only way to do it. The only way to deal 0:27:25.440 --> 0:27:27.800 with that is to make it unusable for everybody so 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:30.159 that so that it doesn't get used. And the way 0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:33.800 to do that is by putting dicks everywhere. Dicks andwhere 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:38.000 ever decides to do a multiverse presentation, or if one 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:40.560 party or another has had decides to a multiverse debate, 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:46.359 it is everyone's moral responsibility, civic duty. This goes beyond 0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:48.680 civic This is as a citizen of the human race. 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:51.600 You know, as a member of this species, you have 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:53.280 to try to find a way to suck it up 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:56.920 for them. Something could be more important. So yeah, so, 0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.520 if if you're buying digital items, do you never plan everything, 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:01.600 even person I don't care how you do it. Knock 0:28:01.640 --> 0:28:04.520 yourself out. We all have our weird things. I I 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:07.920 bisonic DLCs, people do World of Warcraft. If you want 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:10.600 to get of art piece, you can only hang in 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:14.000 your digital room. That sounds miserable, but have fun. I 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.880 I used the internet to order very off putting Danish 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:21.680 cheese product. Oh yeah, that did happen. That was off putting. 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:24.520 It was weird. It was like you tried to trick 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:26.480 yourself into liking it when you were eating it. Though 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:28.840 I we I don't remember not liking it because I 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:30.760 hate a good amount. But I've had the second cube 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:33.919 sitting around and I've had no desired open desired. Yeah, anyway, 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:36.360 so I did not like it. I just I don't 0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:39.880 know that I ever want to eat it again. Quality 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:43.000 audio content. So here's the thing. I have not actually 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:45.840 been talking about the metaverse. Nothing I've mentioned thus far 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.440 actually is the metaverse and doesn't have really anything to 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.600 do with the metaverse besides the technology of a VR 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:56.040 and a R. You know. It turns out companies like Facebook, Epic, Microsoft, 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:58.720 Invalve the way they talk about the metaverse is kind 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:01.239 of all a big lie, like the not metaverse, it's 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:04.040 a it's an astros turf top down marketing scheme to 0:29:04.160 --> 0:29:07.520 turn more of you into data and to create and 0:29:07.560 --> 0:29:10.600 to create vinyl marketing, like that's instant. Instead of an 0:29:10.600 --> 0:29:14.280 interconnected solution to the alienated bubbles of Web two, it's 0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:17.000 just a social media network that encompasses all of your 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.640 vision and encourages even more digital alienation and less in 0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:24.680 person socialization. Kids, you know the worst stuff about the internet. 0:29:24.920 --> 0:29:27.080 What if it was the only thing about the Internet. 0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:30.480 What if it was encompanying everything you see instead of 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:34.200 just a computer screen. So all of the gaming CEOs 0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:36.040 who were talking about the promise of n f T 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.360 s and like, I think it was the one of 0:29:39.400 --> 0:29:40.920 the guys who runs read and I think it might 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:42.960 have been Alexis so haney in or whatever their name 0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:46.640 is who said that, like in five years of games 0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:48.480 will be n f T base because people don't like 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.320 wasting their time and not getting compensated for it, Like, 0:29:51.400 --> 0:29:53.600 do you know what it games is? That's not what people. 0:29:56.600 --> 0:30:00.320 So I'm gonna I'm gonna talk more about metaverse as 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.880 big tech or just bigger tech in part two. But 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:06.440 this this this. This will be wrapping up part one 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:09.360 of the digital storefronts, and then we'll get into some 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:11.640 more kind of applications of this and how we're actually 0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:15.280 seeing it in the second half. So, Robert, do you 0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:17.680 wanna Do you want to go buy a virtual uh 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:22.040 block of Danish cheese? Um? No, I did. When I 0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:23.680 was hanging out on top of the mountain the other day, 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:25.400 I ran into a guy flying some drones, which I 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:27.640 normally don't like. But this guy had a VR control 0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:32.400 rig for his very nice drones that those are dope. 0:30:32.480 --> 0:30:36.240 I might, I might get into that ship, uh, But no, 0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:38.480 I have no desire to shop. I like going to 0:30:38.560 --> 0:30:41.800 the grocery store. Um as I do as much of 0:30:41.840 --> 0:30:45.120 my shopping that way as possible because it's soothing and 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:48.560 uh nice and I think very human to go be 0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:52.320 around other people to get food. But yeah, that's the thing, 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:53.800 you know, and things like the pandemic where that it 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:56.120 comes harder. I think that is where the use cases 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:59.760 for the digital stores actually come in. Like theoretically, but 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:04.120 you've never you've never seen them that feelings which it 0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:07.440 all just looks deeply off putting. It all. It's the 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:09.280 problem is that it's it's stuck. It's stuck in the 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:12.840 uncanny valley. So it's not pleasurable to be in those 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:17.880 digital spaces because you're even though it's being marketed as 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:22.160 a solution to alienation, it's just more alienating because it's 0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:25.720 because it's it's like very clearly exposing the alienation that 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:28.480 we try to avoid. Um, So it falls right in 0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:31.240 the middle of the uncanny valley and it's not pleasant. 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:34.680 But we we we we We will talk more about 0:31:34.680 --> 0:31:37.120 that in part two. Um, if you want to follow 0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.040 the show on the social media's that is Cools on 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:42.840 media and Happen here pod. It can keep up with 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:45.320 my tweets when I I don't know, I don't know 0:31:45.360 --> 0:31:47.600 what I do on Twitter anymore. But that's hungry about 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:50.920 tie And you can harass Robert Evans at I read Okay, 0:31:53.120 --> 0:32:11.920 that's the show. Do it? Do it? Are all kill him? 0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:16.000 Mark Zuckerberg, Welcome to the podcast where we talk about 0:32:16.080 --> 0:32:22.840 the metaverse. I enjoy barbecue sauce And that was Mark Zuckerberg. 0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.320 That was pretty good. That that is that is SNL worthy. 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.720 Thank you, Garrison, because it's because it's so bad. All right, Um, now, 0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:36.320 that was that was my own big goal. This is 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:39.240 this is part two of the Metaverse that never was 0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:42.160 UM here at it could happen here and we're actually 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:44.320 gonna be talking about like that. It couldn't wait until 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:46.640 we launched portions of the show and pretend we never 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:48.960 said all this ship. It's going to be the best garrison. 0:32:49.160 --> 0:32:53.840 You know, Robert, Remember remember when I was talking about 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:57.480 um seek City and all of the virtual venues. I 0:32:57.600 --> 0:33:00.600 just just I just got a message from our beloved 0:33:00.680 --> 0:33:04.800 parent company, I Heart Media. We planned to extend UM 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:08.640 shows into the Metaverse, which was which was announced a 0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:13.080 few weeks ago. But thought that the Metaverse was a 0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:17.840 pretty good idea. I think we will talk about how 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:20.280 the Metaverse could be cool later in this episode, but 0:33:20.320 --> 0:33:22.640 then we'll explain why it won't be. But yeah, I 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:25.000 heard Media did announce so web three in the Metaverse 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:28.760 and the newest consumer platforms for I Heart Media. So sorry, 0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.720 I I was just working. It's it's working in a 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:37.360 matrix for reference there, So yes, I see what. Thank you? 0:33:38.000 --> 0:33:42.680 Um Anyway, So I'm guessing for non Neil Stevenson fans, 0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:46.640 many of you probably had not heard of the Metaverse 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:51.040 before last year. Um VR sure you've heard of VR 0:33:51.240 --> 0:33:55.080 a R maybe, UM, but probably just as like niche 0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:58.240 gaming technology, you know, not not this massive, not not 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:03.240 like a massive successor to the Internet. UM. Primarily three companies, Facebook, 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:06.760 Epic Games, and Valve uh, the later two being mostly 0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:10.759 gaming and software companies. UM. Kind of all decided the 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:14.640 best way to push their niche VR and software technology 0:34:14.680 --> 0:34:18.040 into the zeitgeist was with this flashy new marketing, and 0:34:18.200 --> 0:34:21.080 it kind of worked. Metavers is now and many more 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:25.320 people's like personal lexicon, but it's not really the metaverse, 0:34:25.400 --> 0:34:27.840 you know, like the Walmart thing. It's a way to 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:31.040 attract investors and drum up free press, but it's still 0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:34.839 the same old VR and a R applications of the technology. 0:34:35.400 --> 0:34:37.360 None of these companies are trying to make metaverse a 0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:40.080 thing that we actually want or you know, working towards 0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:44.040 an interconnected, immersive, three D open source successor to the Internet. 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:47.440 All of the different websites and services we use united 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:50.759 under one digital roof, like a super platform that you know, 0:34:51.440 --> 0:34:53.920 is made up of all of these sub platforms. You 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:56.520 have social media, online gaming, and all of like the 0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:59.440 you know, ease of life apps, all accessible through the 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:03.520 same digital space under the same digital economy that that 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:07.600 thing isn't happening. People like that. That's not what people 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:10.319 with money are actually pushing towards, even though they're still 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:14.279 using the metaverse term. Yum. There was a great piece 0:35:14.400 --> 0:35:16.520 in Wired that came out last month as a part 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:21.800 of their Matrix VR issue. UM. It was called the 0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:24.520 metaverse is simply big tech but bigger. It was by 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:28.640 Cecilia di'antazio. It was so it's it's a wonderful piece, 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:31.520 and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a quote 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.400 from it right here. Um. By the mid two thousands, 0:35:34.440 --> 0:35:37.520 it became clear that money wasn't in building individual websites 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:40.080 that we could access on the open web. It was 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:44.960 making information sorders, channels, aggregators, and publishers, open enough to 0:35:45.040 --> 0:35:49.000 scale with user generated content, but closed enough to reap 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.320 enormous profits. This was the evolution from Web one to 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:55.920 Web two. For nearly thirty years, the gravity of the 0:35:55.960 --> 0:36:00.080 consolidation has pulled the cyberspace together. Under the US this 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.520 of fewer and fewer corporate titans, the freaky little planets 0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.880 get drawn together, collide and make bigger planets, clide again 0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:10.840 and make stars or even black holes. Facebook eats, Instagram, 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:15.719 and WhatsApp. Amazon swallows two dozen e commerce sites, and 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:19.560 you're left with these few supermassive players controlling and appropriating 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:22.719 the celestial motion of billions of users. This is how 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:27.680 big tech got big end quote. So yeah, like now 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:31.840 we have all of our isolated toolboxes, and they really 0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.080 fight against any inter platform integration. You have you know, 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:38.959 Microsoft Office and they're they're like off their office suite. 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.960 You have like Google Workspace. You have Apple's own like 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.600 air Drop, Apple Pages and Final Cut Pro, plus the 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:49.680 the nightmare that is Adobe's subscription tools. Like Google wants 0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:52.040 you to spend all day checking your Gmail, traveling with 0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:55.680 Google Maps, watching videos on YouTube, and browsing on Chrome. Meanwhile, 0:36:55.760 --> 0:36:58.600 your friend texts you via I Message, uses Apple Maps, 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.320 and calls his mom on face time. This is the 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.520 single person in the world uses Microsoft Edge. That is true, 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.680 But like this, this form of the Internet is the 0:37:08.719 --> 0:37:11.520 one that the metaverse is growing out of. Metaverse is 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:14.400 just a way for tech companies to add VR and 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:17.600 a R and the accompanying extra surveillance and data collection 0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:21.080 to this poor foot to like their own portfolio of 0:37:21.160 --> 0:37:24.560 proprietary products in order that's happened. They need to convince 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:27.719 us that we need headsets for the next evolution of 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:31.520 the Internet. So it's not surprising that Facebook and Zuckerberg 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:33.439 were the first ones to crack this thing right open. 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:36.719 It's they own not only four of the top six 0:37:36.880 --> 0:37:39.759 social media platforms, but also Oculus, which is the most 0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:44.000 popular manufacturer of VR hardware. VR has been relegated to 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:48.000 niche gaming technology for like, basically two decades, and Zuckerberg 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:49.960 decided the best way to sell more of its headsets 0:37:50.040 --> 0:37:52.359 and software was to give the tech a fresh new 0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:55.719 paint job and call it Metaverse and like. It's sort 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.399 of working that there were approximately nine point four million 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:02.359 shipment severe headsets in two one three point six million 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:05.520 of which we're done during the holiday season after Facebook's 0:38:05.520 --> 0:38:08.879 big Metaverse event. It's suspected that the Quest two, which 0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:11.960 is made by Oculus, a Facebook um, makes up for 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:15.440 more than three quarters of all those headsets sold. So 0:38:15.960 --> 0:38:19.480 the Democrat demographics data isn't explicitly available, but probably a 0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:22.480 lot of kids received these things as holiday gifts um 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:26.720 Oculus Meta. Facebook does not release its VERR headset sales figures, 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.719 but the Oculus app that that you need to have 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:32.800 to make the headset work. Shot to the top spot 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:35.440 in Apple's App Store on Christmas Day. That was the 0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:37.799 first time it's ever been in the number one app 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:40.360 on the App Store, so indicating a spike, and headsets 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.400 received as holiday gifts. So they're selling a lot of headsets, 0:38:44.440 --> 0:38:48.320 like Oculus is is selling a lot of their things, 0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:50.799 Like you know, I I got one a few years ago, 0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:53.719 but you know, now there's there's there's more and more 0:38:53.760 --> 0:38:57.520 of them circulating. Um. But you know this, it's still 0:38:57.680 --> 0:39:00.600 all relegated to VR because I'm not actually metaverse. Arguably 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.480 the closest thing we have to the actual metaverse is 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.640 stuff like Roadblocks and Minecraft. Now that is still not 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:10.560 that's not immersive three D. It's you're still looking at 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.120 it through a two D screen, but it is software 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:18.000 that gives users development tools to create their own projects 0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:21.640 within this shared three D space. What separates these things 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:24.239 and basically all attempts from making the metaverse from being 0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.160 the ideal metaverse, is still the proprietary aspect. Everything is 0:39:28.320 --> 0:39:33.120 isolated islands. You can't take your Roadblocks game into Minecraft, right, 0:39:33.400 --> 0:39:37.719 it still is isolated to their specific things. But you know, Nevertheless, 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:41.200 robox Is CEO described the company as the shepherds of 0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:45.880 the metaverse in early and he is kind of right, like, 0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:50.839 that's not that's not totally inaccurate. Um, I'm gonna quote 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:56.520 again from the Wired piece by Cecilia di'antasio. Um, if 0:39:56.560 --> 0:40:00.560 big text unchecked growth continues, there will be multiple versus, 0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:04.000 if there are any at all, each will be interoperable 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:07.960 under one tech giants giant umbrella. The same way Apple 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:11.440 is both a walled garden and a convenient, habitable terrarium 0:40:11.680 --> 0:40:15.920 for its dedicated consumers. Users love the seamlessness of Apple's 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:20.200 proprietary off porting system, the ambiguity of my message, and 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:23.440 Apple presumably loves the thirty commission it can charge on 0:40:23.560 --> 0:40:27.000 developers who sell apps in their app store. So Epic 0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:30.920 Games is the other big metaverse proponent right now, you 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:33.680 know they were. They were actually making announcements about metaverse 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:39.040 a few months before Facebook did um and the c 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:42.680 a l Epic Games. Tim sween Ley has been outspoken 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.760 against the metaverse ran by a big tech giant like Apple. 0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:49.640 But that's not that's not really genuine because his version 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:53.400 of the metaverse Entails of Cyberspace made accessible through Fortnite 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:57.440 and Unreal Engine, two things owned by Epic Games. So like, 0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:00.480 it's not like he's not actually sincere about creating an 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:02.359 open source thing. He just wants to be the one 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.480 to control it. He's just upset that he thinks someone 0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:08.839 else might. Um. He tried to sue Apple last year 0:41:08.960 --> 0:41:12.319 and and failed. UM, and the College Fornia judge told 0:41:12.400 --> 0:41:15.359 him that Epic Games seeks a systematic change which would 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:19.040 result in a tremendous monetary gain and wealth. The lawsuit 0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.480 is a mechanism to challenge the policies and practices of 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:24.640 Apple and Google, which are an impediment to Mr Sweeney's 0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:28.080 vision of the oncoming metaverse. So it's not actually about 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:33.560 like him being against big tech giants and being against 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:37.239 a big tech giant Wren metaverse. It's just that he 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:38.600 doesn't like that he won't be able to make as 0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:42.320 much money with it if multiple tech companies work together 0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:44.879 to make it. Like that's that's that's really what he's 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:48.040 concerned about. He would rather be in control of this thing, um, 0:41:48.920 --> 0:41:51.040 because like, yeah, it would be really interesting to see 0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:55.760 if multiple tech giants work together to create an actual 0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:58.120 successor to the Internet, like an actual like you know 0:41:58.200 --> 0:41:59.680 how the internet is just when you open up your 0:41:59.680 --> 0:42:01.480 computer or and you have access to the net. It's 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.000 not it's it's not like running a specific program you 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.000 get to go in all the things. It would be 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:08.520 interesting if people actually work towards creating that, but no, 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:12.160 it's all about creating very isolated operating systems with a 0:42:12.280 --> 0:42:15.440 very isolated tool like tool chest. Like you can't access 0:42:15.960 --> 0:42:19.359 Steam games via the Oculus store. These things don't These 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:21.279 things don't work. Now you can Oculus. You can use 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:24.480 the Oculus on Steam games, but not vice versa. They're 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:26.480 making things the way they're making things because they're not 0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.799 trying to design a new Internet because for one thing, 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:31.000 the Internet wasn't designed. It was like the result of 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:34.200 a bunch of people who were doing things that interested them, 0:42:34.280 --> 0:42:37.520 all kind of intersecting and building upon each other. And second, 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:42.120 like the they're they're not they're making individual profit tunnels. 0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:45.960 They're not actually trying to create um. They're not trying 0:42:46.000 --> 0:42:48.880 to like actually trying to think about what people might 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.920 want next, or what people might might want beyond the Internet. 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:54.680 They're thinking, how what can we sell that we're not 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.440 currently selling, and that's never going to be the thing 0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:01.560 that figures out Yeah about Yeah. On on that point, 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:04.160 I'm gonna do one final quote from the Wired piece. Um, 0:43:04.640 --> 0:43:08.760 if if these companies dominating cyberspace did decide to collaborate simultaneously, 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:11.360 piecing together opposite sides of the quilt to create a 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:15.000 digital tech style, that would be very polite. But is 0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:18.080 there a world in which Microsoft, Facebook, Epic Games, Apple, 0:43:18.600 --> 0:43:23.440 uh Navidia, etcetera combine all of their valuable products captain 0:43:23.480 --> 0:43:26.879 planet style into an architect of the metaverse under open 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:30.839 source standards? Nobody in particular roops billions from That's sort 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:33.400 of a tall task to overhaul your code and collaborate 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:36.280 with your competitors. Why would three or four tech giants 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.680 partner to make a metaverse when they already spent decades 0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.480 and billions constructing one of their own. So yeah, it's 0:43:42.480 --> 0:43:45.520 it's it's never gonna happen the way the way society 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:49.120 is made, the way internetworks, that's not ever going to 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.400 be a thing. Speaking of companies and things that you 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:59.480 can buy online and advertising, here's some ads and we're 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:03.799 back and we're gonna talk about possibly the most successful 0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:08.520 version of air of of VR technology we're gona talk 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:12.640 about the actual use cases that are generating actual profit. 0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:18.160 So there is a there was a tweet a few 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:21.080 days ago that I'm just gonna read the tweet and 0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:24.239 then then we'll talk about the implications. Um. This one 0:44:24.480 --> 0:44:27.560 very very viral. UM. I caught this very early on, though, 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:29.759 and I started writing about it, and then a whole 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:32.759 bunch of articles dropped on the topic. A farmer in 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:35.719 Turkey has fitted his cows with virtual reality goggles to 0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:39.200 make them think they're outside in summer pastures. The farmer 0:44:39.239 --> 0:44:41.440 found out that these pleasant scenes make the cows happier 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:47.600 and produce more milk. Futures metaverse, So we're gonna talk 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:49.920 We're gonna talk about the cow matricks. We're gonna talk 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:59.440 about the Yeah it is to go back in time 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:01.320 and tell people, hey, you know that hit movie The 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:03.440 Matrix in the future, We're going to do that, but 0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:08.359 for more milk to get So the thing that went 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:09.880 viral about it that kind of broke the story for 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:12.160 a lot of people was this farmer in Turkey with 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:14.839 the pictures of the cows with VR goggles on them. 0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:18.960 Pretty pretty pretty fucked up. Um. But the idea and 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:23.319 the actual technology used came from came from Russia. UM 0:45:23.719 --> 0:45:28.920 farmers worked together with developers, veterinarians and consultants at the 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:32.239 oh boy, here here's a Russian town name, or I 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:37.080 guess a farm name Kragskernof, I don't know. Yeah, thats right, 0:45:37.520 --> 0:45:40.200 it's us that I think we can we can were we? 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:43.319 I think you nailed it. It's it's it's this farm 0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:46.160 near Moscow. UM and they teamed up so all least 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:49.080 you know, farmers, developers and vets and consultants teamed up 0:45:49.120 --> 0:45:52.239 to make this cow matrix project UM and there was 0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.840 an official statement from the Moscow Ministry of Food and 0:45:54.880 --> 0:46:00.759 Agriculture reads the global trend towards universal computerization. The significant 0:46:01.080 --> 0:46:05.000 significantly simplifies work processes in many areas that and allows 0:46:05.040 --> 0:46:09.200 you to achieve unprecedented results. Russian milk producers keep up 0:46:09.360 --> 0:46:12.360 with world standards and are even ready to offer the 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:15.920 market new and unexpected solutions. On a farm in the 0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:19.440 Moscow region, a prototype of virtual reality glasses were tested 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:23.319 to improve the conditions for keeping cows. Employees of one 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.560 of the largest farms in the Moscow region, together with 0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:28.480 i T specialists, decided to conduct an experiment studying the 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:32.800 influence of virtual reality and developed a layout of VR glasses. 0:46:33.840 --> 0:46:39.239 So the herd donned these VR systems adapted for the 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:42.320 heads of cows. Um so. And they also had to 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:45.400 they had to to to make the imagery work. They 0:46:45.440 --> 0:46:47.800 need to tweak the color palette in the software to 0:46:47.880 --> 0:46:50.239 make it suitable for the cow's vision, because cows can't 0:46:50.239 --> 0:46:53.359 see rudder green, so there's just two shades of yellow 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:55.400 and blue. So in order to replicate what grass like 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:57.759 to them, they have to you know, change the stuff. Um. 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:02.560 But yeah, and then they programmed a unique summer field 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:09.280 simulation program and subjected it onto these cows. Uh. The ministry, 0:47:09.360 --> 0:47:11.920 the Russian Ministry of Our Culture concluded that the cow 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:16.719 matrix does work. UM. In a statement from a few 0:47:16.719 --> 0:47:20.800 a few years ago, officials said environmental conditions have significant 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:24.440 have a significant impact on cow health and as a consequence, 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:30.160 the equality and quantity of milk produced. So, you know, 0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:32.319 like this is the thing I I talked with, um, 0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:34.560 someone I know about this, and they're like, well, if 0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:37.719 it makes the cow like actually happier and healthier than like, 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:40.400 what's the problem. And like the problem is is that 0:47:40.560 --> 0:47:45.160 like you're gas lighting and entire creature's reality. Like you're like, 0:47:45.400 --> 0:47:49.560 you're you're you're like not consentually cassolighting their reality, and 0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:52.560 I that is I don't like that. I don't eat 0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:56.279 everything without their consent. So I it's one of those 0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:58.560 things where it's like, but we're also not gaslighting their 0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:01.440 reality and this like we're not depriving their senses of 0:48:01.520 --> 0:48:04.880 what the world is. No, this seems like an escalation 0:48:05.040 --> 0:48:09.000 in our war on the cow. Yeah, so you know 0:48:09.400 --> 0:48:11.680 this other farmer in Turkey heard about this and decided 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:14.879 to try it out on his cows. Um and yeah, 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:17.680 the fund up Cow Matrix or the cow Tricks does 0:48:17.719 --> 0:48:20.120 seem to do its job extracting more milk from the 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:24.880 cow to increase profitability. Quote from quote from the farmer said, Uh, 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:27.359 we get an average twenty two liters of milk per 0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:30.040 day from the cows in our farm. The milk average 0:48:30.160 --> 0:48:32.600 of the two cows that wore the VR glasses went 0:48:32.719 --> 0:48:36.799 up to twenty seven liters. So yeah, when when when 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:39.760 the story first broke there was the most popular article 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:42.480 was from a site called Futurism, which made made me 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:49.359 made me very depressive about about futurism of depressed about futurism. Garrison. Yeah, 0:48:49.520 --> 0:48:51.600 it made me mad enough that I'm going to read 0:48:51.640 --> 0:48:56.960 some of its to you. Thank god, I haven't been 0:48:57.000 --> 0:49:03.080 angry in seconds. That cows produce more milk when VR 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.880 makes them think they're in beautiful green pastures proves that 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.719 keeping them in agriculture environments isn't healthy, nor does it 0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:12.560 make them happy. Putting them in a cow matrix does 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:15.160 sound a little grim, yes, but you can't argue with 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:21.719 the results. Oh my god, I can't. I say, you 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.759 actually care if all this has shown is that, like potentially, 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.160 if you put cows in this thing during the winter, 0:49:28.320 --> 0:49:32.000 when it's not sunny and bright outside, then they are happier. 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:35.520 This is not shown that, for example, taking all cows 0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:39.120 out of pastures and sticking them in matrix boxes would 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:41.279 make them Yeah, because the thing is they're not they're 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:43.840 on pastures. They're in little jail cells with VR goggles 0:49:43.920 --> 0:49:46.680 on their head. So like it's that that was that 0:49:46.760 --> 0:49:49.120 was the use case, And like the quote from the farmers, 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:51.680 like they're watching green pasture and it gives them an 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:54.560 emotional boost. They are less stressed. Um and the farmers 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:56.680 that he plans to be plans to buy ten more. 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.799 It's like you can spend thousands of dollars on specialized 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:03.160 caw via headsets um or you can you know, like 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:05.800 use that money to buy more land for the cows 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:08.640 to spread out. And if we're at that point in 0:50:08.760 --> 0:50:10.920 society that in order to make in order to in 0:50:11.040 --> 0:50:13.520 order to make enough cow milk, we need to gaslight 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:16.279 cows by overruling their senses with a clunky of your 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:18.719 headset on their little fuzzy faces. Maybe we should start 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:21.279 having milk. Maybe we should like maybe that's it, Like 0:50:21.600 --> 0:50:25.960 if we require this to have milk in our cereal, 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.160 then nope, no more, not not gonna. I'm not gonna 0:50:29.239 --> 0:50:32.279 do that. I refuse. That's not like it's already And 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:34.520 if you practice, if you don't buy milk like like 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:38.160 locally from a farm, you know, so if we're doing this, 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:41.000 that just like immediately checks me out of every like no, 0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:46.839 I'm just fully fully not. Yeah, I think that's kind 0:50:46.880 --> 0:50:48.800 of evil. I think that's kind of evil. Like the 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.960 whole industry way by which we produce meat at scale 0:50:52.080 --> 0:50:56.680 is pretty evil. But that's an escalation. It's it's the 0:50:56.760 --> 0:51:00.560 specific thing of like of of of overruling the reality 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:04.400 and senses um of another living creature like that is 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:07.880 for some reason, for some reason, that just puts them 0:51:07.960 --> 0:51:10.600 into a way in order for you to get like meat, 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.719 And that's just like turning them into food, but like 0:51:13.920 --> 0:51:16.719 making their living really shitty and then making trying to 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:19.319 trick them to thinking they're not. Yeah, it's even worse 0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:21.600 than just having them live in shitty conditions, I think 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:23.920 from an as standpoint, and maybe it's more pleasant for 0:51:24.000 --> 0:51:27.799 the animal, but from like our standpoint, it's worse to me. Yep. 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:35.839 So speaking of uh, I don't know, don't Is there 0:51:35.920 --> 0:51:38.960 some segway that we can work this in? You know 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:42.920 what does essentially force you to live in an alternate 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:46.920 reality that allows you to be more productive for the 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:52.120 people who make money based on your existence buying these 0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:54.400 products and services that supporting this podcast. I was just 0:51:54.440 --> 0:51:58.920 gonna say podcasts in general do that. But yes, cool, 0:51:59.640 --> 0:52:02.719 All right, we are back and my last my last 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:07.000 big section here is titled we Are the Cows. So 0:52:07.160 --> 0:52:09.640 this is that's gonna that's gonna give you a sense 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:11.600 of how of how we're going to talk about what 0:52:14.080 --> 0:52:18.120 so what what? What the cow tricks really demonstrates though, 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:20.320 is that the end goal of all this is to 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:22.759 make us the cow right you know, we we and 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:25.160 we already are to some degree with like the Internet 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:28.200 and smart and smartphones. But this is more, this is 0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:32.040 an escalation, right Like the people, the ghoules, that Silicon 0:52:32.160 --> 0:52:35.920 Valley and you know, the whole tech world want. They 0:52:36.280 --> 0:52:39.200 want a world where we are forced to down hardware 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:43.000 rigs that block out our body's senses and replace the 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:47.320 input with digital coded counterfeit. That's that's the Internet that 0:52:47.360 --> 0:52:49.880 tries to convince you that you're inside of it and 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:52.560 it is inside of you. That that's that's that's that 0:52:52.719 --> 0:52:55.200 is what they want. Really, Like, even if we get 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:57.640 the metaverse that I would prefer, you know, like the 0:52:57.719 --> 0:53:01.080 mythical open source interconnect did successor to the Internet, with 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:03.440 all these different websites, tools and games that I like 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:07.400 all together and intuitively accessible through a share digital space. 0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:09.880 Even if we get that, like, which we won't, and 0:53:10.000 --> 0:53:12.759 if there's safeguards to protect digital privacy that are built in, 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:15.799 which there wouldn't be, that doesn't actually make the real 0:53:15.880 --> 0:53:20.200 world much better. Like in my opinion, air technology specifically 0:53:20.320 --> 0:53:25.239 could be really cool. Um, but but redesigning the world 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:29.759 to require headsets, goggles or air glasses would suck like now, 0:53:29.800 --> 0:53:32.320 would not only for people who can't get a technology 0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:34.239 right if if we redesign the world to be like 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.960 the only way to interact with systems is through this 0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:39.800 digital lens, that's gonna suck. We we now, we already 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:41.480 had that do some degree with smartphones and the internet, 0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:44.840 but this is another escalation of it. And again, like 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:47.360 like the cow, it's just gonna be a way to 0:53:47.480 --> 0:53:50.279 paint over our late capitalist climate disaster of a world. 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:53.920 Um metaverse is a tech capitalist solution to our current 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:58.759 and pressing political and ontological problems. And I have used 0:53:58.800 --> 0:54:02.279 the bathroom really that well, I'll talk for a little while. 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:04.080 I think a big part of what Garrison is saying 0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:09.719 is that instead of relying on these tech industry ghoules 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:12.640 to build the future for you, which is a future 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:15.960 in which they sell you away to hide from the 0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:18.160 hell that they have made of the world and others 0:54:18.239 --> 0:54:20.200 like them have made of the world, instead of doing that, 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:23.160 you've just spend the rest of your life listening to podcasts, 0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:26.040 put put blinders on over your eyes, cover up all 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:29.520 of your senses, but your ears and just exist forever 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:33.560 in a concoon made entirely of my voice and occasionally 0:54:33.600 --> 0:54:37.080 Garrison and Chris's and Sophie's voice, but mainly my voice. 0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:40.600 And they're saying, not listen to just any podcast but 0:54:40.719 --> 0:54:43.799 podcasts that you benefit from. I don't think people should 0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:46.000 listen to any podcasts that I don't do. That doesn't 0:54:46.040 --> 0:54:51.279 seem right. So where's my angle on that? Huh? I 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:54.440 don't know. Um, I don't know how long we should 0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:58.799 vamp while Garrison just leaves in the middle. I really 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:02.040 need to, I really need to to see. Well, it's okay. 0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:05.640 I just told everybody that we're the metaverse now, Garrison Archia. 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:10.120 I drank so much coffee this morning. It was a problem, okay. 0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:13.000 In similar to all this, you know, remember the John 0:55:13.040 --> 0:55:17.359 Carmike interview from Yes That's such a Bomber the Doom 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:21.200 co creator and former CTO of Ovoculus. Yes these bodies 0:55:21.239 --> 0:55:24.040 are a curse John, Yeah, on the Journogon show. He 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.600 openly said, the problems of yours to make the world 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:29.160 you wanted, It is not possible on earth to give 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.280 everyone what they would want. Not everyone can have Richard 0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:36.560 Branson private islands people react negatively to any talking of economics, 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:39.160 but it's a resource allocation. You have to make decisions 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:41.960 about where things go. Economically, you can deliver a lot 0:55:42.040 --> 0:55:44.640 more value to a lot more people. In the virtual sense, 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:47.520 we can have virtual devices that can get cheap enough 0:55:47.920 --> 0:55:49.320 that lots and lots of people will be able to 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:51.839 have these. Not everyone can have a mention, Not everyone 0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:54.120 can have a home theater. These are things we can simulate, 0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:56.920 though to some degree, in virtual reality, and the simulation 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:58.680 is not as good as the as the real thing. 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:01.160 If you're rich, you probably have your own home theater, 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:03.360 imagine in private island. Good for you. You're probably not 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.520 the people who's going to benefit the most from this thing. 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:08.640 Most of the people in the world lived in cramped 0:56:08.719 --> 0:56:12.080 quarters and are not and they wouldn't that and that's 0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:13.640 not what they would choose to be and if they 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:16.520 had a limited resources. There's this piece of art that 0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:19.080 goes around the internet. It's the this dystopian kid in 0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:23.200 a corner drooling with goggles on, with like rainbow pictures. 0:56:23.640 --> 0:56:26.320 But it's a terrible looking place, and people say, this 0:56:26.440 --> 0:56:28.279 is the world you're trying to build. People plugged into 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:32.200 virtual reality and ignoring the world around them, and Carmacs 0:56:32.239 --> 0:56:36.080 responses and encouraging. He says, but is his life really 0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:38.000 better off if he takes the goggles off and he's 0:56:38.040 --> 0:56:41.640 in the horrible place? So I I think Carmack really 0:56:41.719 --> 0:56:44.400 has convinced himself that virtual reality is a path to 0:56:44.480 --> 0:56:47.200 making the world a better place. In the interview, he 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:51.000 compares VR to the invention of like air conditioning. He says, like, 0:56:51.440 --> 0:56:53.440 I live in Dallas, it's a hundred degrees here. We 0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:55.960 change the world around us in all that we do. 0:56:56.320 --> 0:56:59.239 We live in air conditioning. People don't generally go, oh, 0:56:59.280 --> 0:57:01.200 you're not experience seeing the world around you because of 0:57:01.239 --> 0:57:03.680 air conditioning. This is what human beings do. We bend 0:57:03.760 --> 0:57:05.560 the world to our will, and this is how things 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:08.520 get better by building, by building technology and distributing them 0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:10.320 to people so that they have something better than what 0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:12.759 we would they would have if they didn't exist. Now, 0:57:12.960 --> 0:57:14.719 if you dig into what he's saying, here's actually a 0:57:14.719 --> 0:57:17.760 few interesting things. Because for one, yeah, air conditioning is 0:57:17.760 --> 0:57:20.120 actually kind of bad, like the way we're using it 0:57:20.200 --> 0:57:22.680 and what it represents. It is a band aid solution 0:57:22.760 --> 0:57:24.840 to our continual problem of heating up the earth and 0:57:24.920 --> 0:57:28.560 it's making the problem worse every single day. Yeah, and honestly, 0:57:28.680 --> 0:57:30.720 it's it's yeah, it's like it's like a band aid 0:57:30.760 --> 0:57:33.040 that also makes the problem worse because a C contributes 0:57:33.040 --> 0:57:37.160 to a lot of energy human shit. But you know, 0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:40.880 air conditioning is also an actual material change, right like 0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:43.760 it can it can actually help people not die due 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:47.120 to heat. The metaverse and VR has talked about does 0:57:47.200 --> 0:57:50.560 not improve a middle to lower class person's material conditions, 0:57:50.840 --> 0:57:53.800 and to say so demonstrates how disconnected these tech bros 0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:57.920 are from a regular person's reality. The metaphors and VR 0:57:58.120 --> 0:58:00.919 and like virtual worlds are going to be built based 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:04.160 on the perception of reality held by those who create them. 0:58:04.520 --> 0:58:07.600 That's why we're getting shitty digital private movie theaters, fake 0:58:07.720 --> 0:58:10.800 mansions and metaverse concerts and h and M n f 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:13.920 T stores. They're giving us a simulated version of the 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:16.320 world that they actually get to live in for real. 0:58:16.840 --> 0:58:19.280 But we can refuse this. We we don't need to 0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:21.200 take them up on this offer. If we're gonna be 0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:25.920 stuck with with multiple proprietary branded meta verses that are 0:58:26.080 --> 0:58:28.480 made by rich tech bros to mirror a world that 0:58:28.520 --> 0:58:30.040 the that the rich tech bro gets to live in 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:32.040 the best thing we can do is funk with it. 0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:34.480 We can saboage it from the inside. We need to 0:58:34.640 --> 0:58:37.440 spam floating dicks at a metaverse concert. This is the 0:58:37.520 --> 0:58:41.600 actual thing that needs to happen, because look, we all 0:58:41.720 --> 0:58:45.439 know terrorism is fun, right, everybody loves terrorism, but there's 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:48.320 horrible consequences for doing it in the real world. In 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:52.360 the metaverse, there's no laws against terrorism. Yet you can 0:58:52.560 --> 0:58:54.920 terrorize however you want in the metaverse and it's just 0:58:55.120 --> 0:58:57.640 trolling and that's fine, So do a much of it 0:58:57.680 --> 0:59:00.520 as possible until they make it illegal. The except that 0:59:01.000 --> 0:59:03.040 would go really well with this type of thing is 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:07.240 the poet terrorism concept of this applies like perfectly to 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:09.560 this idea of how we need to funk with these 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.520 digital spaces that are trying to be created, because yeah, 0:59:12.640 --> 0:59:17.000 like they're like they're pretty bad. During one Bitcoin consumed 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:22.280 all of the electrical energy um by equivalent to a 0:59:22.320 --> 0:59:28.080 country like Argentina um. The bitcoin network handled like nineties 0:59:28.120 --> 0:59:32.800 seven million transactions, so this is roughly zero point zero 0:59:33.040 --> 0:59:36.920 one two percent of the worldwide volume of non cash transactions. 0:59:37.520 --> 0:59:41.520 But bitcoin was responsible for zero point five four of 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:46.680 global electricity consumption on total, which is astronomical, like that's 0:59:46.720 --> 0:59:50.760 all like, that's it's either it's ridiculates on average, that's like, uh, 0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:56.680 like thirteen hundred kill about hours poor per bitcoin transaction, 0:59:56.920 --> 1:00:00.320 which is so much energy. The power consumed by a 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:03.760 single bit quin transaction on average could power an average 1:00:03.880 --> 1:00:07.480 US household for one and a half months. It's it 1:00:07.600 --> 1:00:10.640 is ridiculous how much and how much it's getting used. 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.120 And they're trying to build, you know, like the sek 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:16.120 City thing. They're trying to build this metaverse off of crypto, 1:00:16.480 --> 1:00:20.040 which they're like, I'm sad because like crypto could be 1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:23.480 really similar to the metaverse. Crypto could be really rad 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:26.400 Like crypto could be an actually super red thing, but 1:00:26.520 --> 1:00:30.320 the way it's being used right now is really environmentally damaging. 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:34.800 UM and this this linking of Web three, you know, 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:38.080 the mythical Web three and the metaverse to crypto is 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:40.320 showing like yeah, it's it's is kind of like the 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.400 band aid solution, where it's not it's it's it's not 1:00:42.600 --> 1:00:44.840 it's not actually fixing the problem, and it's kind of 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:47.600 making the problem worse because they're so set on linking 1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:50.680 it to crypto right now that it's it sucks like it. 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:53.440 It's it's it's it's gonna happen. It's gonna suck. What 1:00:53.600 --> 1:00:56.080 you can do is you can spam Final Fantasy seven porn, 1:00:56.200 --> 1:00:59.160 you can spam Sonic, the Hedgehog feet picks. This is 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:02.640 this is the only tool we have. But save for 1:01:03.000 --> 1:01:05.960 actual terrorism, which we're not gonna talk about on this podcast, 1:01:06.280 --> 1:01:08.480 you can, but we can't talk about poetic terrorism. That 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:10.320 is something that you can do. You can funk with 1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:13.720 these systems from the inside and make them unusable. And 1:01:13.920 --> 1:01:17.720 that's that's really the only thing. And that's what I'm 1:01:17.720 --> 1:01:20.600 gonna do in my spare time because it's fine. Yeah, um, 1:01:21.000 --> 1:01:24.240 do do poetic terrorism in the metaverse. Um, go funk 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:27.320 it up for them. Um. And maybe in the process, 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:30.480 here's my dream garrison that perhaps in the process of 1:01:30.560 --> 1:01:32.920 sucking it up for them, we build something that we 1:01:33.040 --> 1:01:36.920 actually like. That's the thing, right, Yeah, that is similar 1:01:36.960 --> 1:01:39.439 to how the Internet kind of got originally created. Of course, 1:01:39.520 --> 1:01:42.280 now it's turned into this hellscape, but that'll probably that 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:44.560 will probably happen any ten years or more for the 1:01:44.640 --> 1:01:46.800 meta but we can get a little bit of fun 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:49.080 out of it, and we can have some fun with it, 1:01:49.200 --> 1:01:51.240 like we did on the internet for a couple of years. 1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:55.560 It all got real bad. So that is that is 1:01:55.600 --> 1:01:59.400 the metaverse that doesn't exist. Um and yeah, So fight 1:01:59.440 --> 1:02:04.240 against the matrix as best as you can do your best, 1:02:04.560 --> 1:02:08.480 hold them out, Go to city for the cows the world. 1:02:09.720 --> 1:02:16.880 Make a cow's y on. It's up to us. This 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:32.480 is depressing, all right. That's the episode. Welcome to It 1:02:32.600 --> 1:02:35.360 could happen here, A show about things falling apart and 1:02:35.440 --> 1:02:38.400 how to maybe put them back together a little bit 1:02:38.480 --> 1:02:42.080 better than they were before. I am Robert Evans, and 1:02:42.320 --> 1:02:44.760 with me this week is I guess I'm very excited 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:49.840 about Chris Begley, author of The Next Apocalypse, The Art 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:53.560 and Science of Survival. Chris, Welcome to the show. Thank 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:57.080 you now, Chris. Before we get into the meat of 1:02:57.160 --> 1:03:00.160 our discussion, I have to talk about what you do 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:02.240 for a living, because for years and years it was 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:04.520 my job to go around the world. I talked to 1:03:04.560 --> 1:03:08.320 people and pretty much every continent about their different interesting jobs. 1:03:08.360 --> 1:03:11.240 So I've I've talked interviewed everybody from like Bravo workers 1:03:11.280 --> 1:03:16.480 in Nevada to Iraqi counter terrorism special forces in Iraq. 1:03:17.080 --> 1:03:19.920 And you have probably the coolest job title if anybody 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:25.000 I've met, you're an underwater archaeologist, that's right. How did you? Um? 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:28.160 How did you? I mean was that was it just 1:03:28.280 --> 1:03:31.320 kind of like were you kind of laser focused on 1:03:31.440 --> 1:03:32.920 that goal or was it more you were interested in 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:35.360 archaeology and you loved diving, and so the two just 1:03:35.480 --> 1:03:38.360 kind of made sense together. Yeah. Well, I started out 1:03:38.400 --> 1:03:42.360 as ah what now called a terrestrial archaeologist, you know, 1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:45.880 working on the land as most people do, and worked 1:03:45.960 --> 1:03:50.440 for years in Central America. Honduras was my focus, as 1:03:50.480 --> 1:03:53.920 you saw in the book, but other other places uh, 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:58.680 nearby as well, And really it was about I would say, 1:03:59.160 --> 1:04:03.840 I don't know twill often fourteen years ago I wanted 1:04:03.880 --> 1:04:06.320 to just branch out a little bit from that. And 1:04:06.640 --> 1:04:10.560 one of the things that that all archaeologists have seen 1:04:10.680 --> 1:04:12.880 is that, you know, there are certain things that really 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:16.920 just aren't as explored as other things, and one was 1:04:17.680 --> 1:04:20.720 all of the archaeological resources underwater. I mean, we hear 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:26.040 about underwater archaeology or maritime archaeology in the Mediterranean, right, 1:04:26.160 --> 1:04:29.520 you know, Roman shipwrecks and all that, but there are 1:04:30.280 --> 1:04:33.240 big chunks of the world where we've done very little 1:04:33.320 --> 1:04:36.120 to see what's out there. You know. And one other 1:04:36.240 --> 1:04:39.040 interesting thing about that is there are many different things 1:04:39.120 --> 1:04:41.720 you could look at underwater, but often we look at shipwrecks, 1:04:42.360 --> 1:04:46.720 and shipwrecks are different from regular archaeological sites because, you know, 1:04:46.840 --> 1:04:50.200 shipwreck is a moment in time that all happened in 1:04:51.680 --> 1:04:54.600 in one instance, and so when we're looking at that 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:58.400 kind of archaeological site, we see this snapshot that we 1:04:58.560 --> 1:05:00.840 don't see when we look at a it was occupied 1:05:00.880 --> 1:05:04.160 over hundreds of years, so you know. So, yeah, so 1:05:04.320 --> 1:05:07.680 that wasn't my focus, but it became, uh, sort of 1:05:08.840 --> 1:05:10.800 somewhere I wanted to go as I learn more about 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:14.800 And one of the things I find really interesting that 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:18.600 the basic thrust of your book is that the way 1:05:18.680 --> 1:05:22.800 in which we think about civilizations falling or collapsing or 1:05:23.400 --> 1:05:25.960 how however you you know, the ways in which folks 1:05:26.000 --> 1:05:28.160 tend to discuss that when we're talking about the Maya 1:05:28.280 --> 1:05:32.960 or the romans Um is very different from what archaeologists 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:35.880 who tend to study these cultures, how they tend to 1:05:35.960 --> 1:05:39.360 perceive of of what you might more accurately call a 1:05:39.480 --> 1:05:42.800 decline or or you know, a decentralization or whatever. I 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:44.720 think there's a number of terms that we could use. 1:05:44.880 --> 1:05:47.840 But these ideas that like you have these civilizations and 1:05:47.880 --> 1:05:51.360 then they suddenly fall apart um, are not really based 1:05:51.400 --> 1:05:55.360 in rigorous historical analysis usually. Um, there's some cases as 1:05:55.480 --> 1:05:59.240 as you go into the book. UM, and I'm I'm 1:05:59.600 --> 1:06:02.480 I'm interested in that because you're kind of coming at 1:06:02.520 --> 1:06:06.280 from a very rigorous historical standpoint in this book. Um, 1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:07.880 a lot of the stuff that we talked about on 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:10.560 on this show in a more contemporary sense. And I'm 1:06:10.640 --> 1:06:13.640 kind of wondering how the idea to write this sort 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:16.160 of came together because you you started it before the 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:20.400 COVID nineteen pandemic. Obviously that had an impact on the book. 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:25.720 It's it's it's all over there. Yeah yeah. Um, well, 1:06:25.960 --> 1:06:31.160 I've I was. One of the things that I do 1:06:31.400 --> 1:06:36.680 is teach the wilderness survival courses and um, and I 1:06:37.040 --> 1:06:39.200 don't do that as frequently as some people that that 1:06:39.400 --> 1:06:43.000 sort of dedicate themselves to that do, but but but 1:06:43.080 --> 1:06:47.040 I do it fairly frequently. And UM. It became obvious 1:06:47.080 --> 1:06:50.840 to me over time that people were taking these courses 1:06:50.920 --> 1:06:53.880 not just to learn how to deal with being lost 1:06:53.960 --> 1:06:56.840 out in the wilderness, which is sort of was my vision. 1:06:57.280 --> 1:06:59.800 What do you do if you unexpectedly have to spend 1:06:59.880 --> 1:07:03.440 an eye out in the woods, or or two or three. Um, 1:07:03.680 --> 1:07:05.480 they were really thinking about what am I do when 1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:07.720 things fall apart? How do I take care of myself? 1:07:07.760 --> 1:07:09.720 How do I take care of my family using these 1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:13.400 skills that you could use in a situation where things 1:07:13.480 --> 1:07:17.240 had fallen apart? And that sort of oriented me towards 1:07:17.520 --> 1:07:21.320 the fact that, you know, people were worrying about the future. 1:07:21.360 --> 1:07:22.920 I mean I could see it. I could see it 1:07:22.960 --> 1:07:26.640 in my students at university. I could see it, you know, 1:07:26.880 --> 1:07:30.200 in the people's faces at the supermarket. You know, there 1:07:30.320 --> 1:07:35.880 was something going on there that was um uh, there 1:07:35.960 --> 1:07:37.960 was concerning people, and a lot of it had to 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:41.360 do with climate change, and that I think was was 1:07:41.480 --> 1:07:46.040 the focus initially for me writing this um because what 1:07:46.200 --> 1:07:51.680 I saw was, you know, sort of the prepper community 1:07:51.880 --> 1:07:55.680 and survivalist community looking at things that really seemed to 1:07:55.760 --> 1:07:59.600 be short term and didn't at all focus on what 1:07:59.800 --> 1:08:02.800 we really saw historically. So I think that my um, 1:08:03.920 --> 1:08:07.560 my initial motive to motivation to write this was really 1:08:08.080 --> 1:08:12.320 just seeing this concern that was that was growing among 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:14.600 people about what the future is going to look like. 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:17.479 And then of course COVID hit and that that that 1:08:17.720 --> 1:08:21.640 really brought all this to the to the forefront. And 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:23.840 are there any specific ways in your mind that you 1:08:24.080 --> 1:08:27.160 you can you kind of think on how COVID altered 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:30.000 what you were what you were writing, or how you 1:08:30.080 --> 1:08:32.280 conceived of what you were writing. Like once you you know, 1:08:32.400 --> 1:08:34.600 you you have this kind of vision that's inspired by 1:08:34.760 --> 1:08:37.080 the things that you're seeing and hearing, particularly in these 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:40.320 wilderness survival courses. And then as you get started, we 1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:43.680 have this horrible, horrible plague hit and a number of 1:08:43.960 --> 1:08:46.120 of of things start to happen very quickly. How does 1:08:46.160 --> 1:08:49.479 that kind of alter the trajectory of what you're writing? Yeah, 1:08:49.560 --> 1:08:52.800 I guess the you know, the there were some just 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:57.479 sort of practical logistical things obviously, right, uh, Some things 1:08:57.560 --> 1:09:01.040 that I intended to do or ways that I had 1:09:01.080 --> 1:09:04.320 hoped to interact with folks in the course of interviewing 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:06.400 people for the book or writing it, you know, wasn't 1:09:06.400 --> 1:09:10.080 going to be possible. But in terms of thinking about 1:09:10.120 --> 1:09:13.639 how things happened, the big thing for me was, um, 1:09:14.479 --> 1:09:18.439 how it became politicized so quickly. You know, that was 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:23.640 you know in the um you know, you know, well, 1:09:23.720 --> 1:09:27.120 now you see all of the memes you know, um 1:09:28.120 --> 1:09:31.080 talking about the zombie movies where half the population doesn't 1:09:31.120 --> 1:09:33.760 believe their zombies or something. You know, that was never 1:09:34.000 --> 1:09:38.439 really on the radar, at least not on my radar before. 1:09:38.680 --> 1:09:45.240 And so now um, um, you know it is because clearly, 1:09:46.080 --> 1:09:48.360 not only do these things happen and then you have 1:09:48.439 --> 1:09:50.960 a group of people that are dealing with it, you 1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:54.800 have obviously the dynamics within the group, which which of 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:57.120 course we knew, but to see it play out in 1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:00.559 this way and this sort of dramatic way that really 1:10:00.600 --> 1:10:04.439 altered the course of history. I mean, the pandemic could 1:10:04.520 --> 1:10:09.160 have turned out uh, you know, differently, but it didn't. 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:11.680 And part of the reason that didn't was because of 1:10:11.800 --> 1:10:15.880 the way folks reacted to it. And I'm wondering because 1:10:16.080 --> 1:10:18.240 a part a chunk of your career, in a big 1:10:18.320 --> 1:10:20.439 chunk of this book is kind of looking at in 1:10:20.560 --> 1:10:25.000 places like Honduras where these these civilizations entered decline, and 1:10:25.040 --> 1:10:27.080 in some cases it was very sharp, like within a 1:10:27.280 --> 1:10:31.280 fairly short period of time, nine of the population leaves 1:10:31.600 --> 1:10:36.160 or you know, uh is deceased. Um. And you you 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:38.040 see like the crumbling of a lot of these governmental 1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:41.240 institutions and whatnot that had had organized life for a while. 1:10:41.280 --> 1:10:45.240 You see the pretty significant migrations. Um. Is there any 1:10:45.280 --> 1:10:48.000 ways in which kind of the last two years as 1:10:48.040 --> 1:10:52.960 an archaeologist has changed or informed how you were thinking about, um, 1:10:53.439 --> 1:10:55.720 these places that you've been you've been studying, in these 1:10:55.760 --> 1:10:59.120 moments in history that you've been studying for so long. Yeah, 1:10:59.160 --> 1:11:01.800 in some ways, it brings some of it into a 1:11:01.880 --> 1:11:04.840 little sharper focus. For instance, you know, one of the 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:08.760 things that that archaeologists had long talked about was that 1:11:08.920 --> 1:11:12.240 during these declines or these collapses, that it's uneven. It's 1:11:12.280 --> 1:11:16.599 not equal for everybody. It's not equal over space and time, 1:11:16.680 --> 1:11:21.160 and certainly depending on your position in society. UM, there's 1:11:21.240 --> 1:11:26.439 different ways in which it it plays out for you, um, 1:11:27.080 --> 1:11:29.960 you know, and that's something that we see. We see 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:36.920 it from um, you know, access to vaccines to UM well, 1:11:37.000 --> 1:11:39.439 I mean even things like you know, if we think 1:11:39.439 --> 1:11:42.120 about folks that are unvaccinated. Now there's a you know, 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:45.640 a chunk of those people that are doing it for 1:11:46.160 --> 1:11:49.519 a sort of political reasons or other ideological reason, but 1:11:49.600 --> 1:11:55.080 there's also a big, uh, a big group of those 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:59.880 folks that are doing it because history shows that they 1:12:00.040 --> 1:12:05.960 should be wary of anything that uh society tries to 1:12:06.040 --> 1:12:08.880 do to them. And so, you know, you have these 1:12:09.360 --> 1:12:13.240 these things playing out for different ways for um, you know, 1:12:13.360 --> 1:12:16.400 people from different regions of the country or political orientations, 1:12:16.520 --> 1:12:20.599 or race or ethnicity or um, you know, a whole 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:24.439 variety of things. And so seeing how uneven it was 1:12:25.320 --> 1:12:29.760 the pandemic, UH makes me think that you know, it 1:12:29.920 --> 1:12:32.640 certainly was that way then. UH. The other thing that 1:12:32.800 --> 1:12:35.840 we see when we look archaeologically is that it's these 1:12:35.920 --> 1:12:40.040 big structures or systems that collapse. That really is the 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:45.080 collapse and the things that cause it initially, whether it's 1:12:45.439 --> 1:12:50.920 I don't know, deforestation or drought or warfare or even 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:55.920 a natural disaster of some sort, um, that really it's 1:12:56.360 --> 1:12:59.280 the way people respond to those and the way these 1:13:00.360 --> 1:13:08.920 systems deal with those changes that really creates the problems 1:13:08.960 --> 1:13:10.840 that you see later on. And we can see that now. 1:13:11.000 --> 1:13:13.640 For instance, one of the things that we're talking a 1:13:13.720 --> 1:13:17.840 lot now about is supply chain issues, right, and this 1:13:18.240 --> 1:13:23.120 is a result of COVID, but it's not a direct result. 1:13:23.320 --> 1:13:26.000 I mean, it's not because the crews on the ships 1:13:26.040 --> 1:13:32.240 are at the ports or truck drivers have uh are 1:13:32.320 --> 1:13:35.840 sick it's because of the ways in which all of 1:13:35.960 --> 1:13:40.599 this disrupted things, and especially when we get these really 1:13:40.840 --> 1:13:46.160 efficient but inflexible systems, like a lot of our shipping 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:52.160 system was um these disruptions result in really big changes. 1:13:52.680 --> 1:13:54.840 So you know, you have these huge ships that can 1:13:54.880 --> 1:13:58.439 only dock a few ports. Once that gets backed up, 1:13:58.880 --> 1:14:04.160 you can't really shift and adjust, and so that's I 1:14:04.280 --> 1:14:07.000 think for me, just a lot of it is seeing 1:14:07.080 --> 1:14:10.080 it play out, where we see the fact that we 1:14:10.200 --> 1:14:12.920 have something that sets it all off, but then we 1:14:13.120 --> 1:14:18.560 have the response of the system or the structure that 1:14:18.760 --> 1:14:24.400 really creates the day to day impact. I suspect a 1:14:24.479 --> 1:14:28.000 big part of kind of why we conceive popularly of 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:31.040 of quote unquote collapses in the past is based on, 1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:33.760 as you talk about extensively in your book, the way 1:14:33.800 --> 1:14:35.400 in which we look at it kind of in fiction, 1:14:35.479 --> 1:14:38.719 and in fiction it's nearly always like the societal equivalent 1:14:38.760 --> 1:14:40.960 of a bullet in the head, right, the zombie plague 1:14:41.000 --> 1:14:43.519 is out, and then a couple of days everything's fallen apart. 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:46.240 And the point that you make in this is that 1:14:46.360 --> 1:14:49.280 it's probably I mean, this isn't exactly the phrase, but 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:50.800 it's probably better to look at it kind of like 1:14:51.479 --> 1:14:54.800 it's like a tumor or something where the things are 1:14:54.840 --> 1:14:57.679 set in motion that are going to lead to things 1:14:57.760 --> 1:15:02.120 falling apart much much um, at a point before a 1:15:02.160 --> 1:15:03.880 lot of people probably would have noticed it. You know, 1:15:04.040 --> 1:15:07.599 the problem can be too far gone, um before it's 1:15:07.640 --> 1:15:11.880 really obvious. UM. And we yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 1:15:11.960 --> 1:15:14.360 that's that's a good point. And that's the that's really 1:15:14.920 --> 1:15:20.479 something that you know, even with COVID, it shows that, right. Um. 1:15:21.200 --> 1:15:25.360 You know, the problems are not only the existence or 1:15:25.400 --> 1:15:28.439 the appearance of this virus, but you know, first of all, 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:31.559 how did it appear, And that has to do with um, 1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:36.640 you know, decreasing habitat for wild animals and the proximity 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:41.360 of human populations to animals. And then we have increased 1:15:41.760 --> 1:15:45.760 sort of um communication and travel, which you know is 1:15:45.800 --> 1:15:48.519 not a bad thing obviously, but it is going to 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:52.360 change the way in which these things spread. But then 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:55.120 we have the way that we divide ourselves up into 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:59.920 nation states, and the way in which we have you know, 1:16:00.080 --> 1:16:04.519 economic systems that are working in certain ways. So you know, 1:16:04.600 --> 1:16:07.680 the vaccine gets here but not there and and and 1:16:07.880 --> 1:16:13.760 so forth. UM. But yeah, that's you know that I 1:16:13.840 --> 1:16:15.519 think is at the heart of it, you have these 1:16:15.560 --> 1:16:18.360 things that have been set in place. You have these 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:21.240 parameters in in which you're going to have to react, 1:16:21.400 --> 1:16:25.240 and they really set um the stage for what's going 1:16:25.320 --> 1:16:27.800 to happen. You know, you have it's like looking backwards 1:16:27.840 --> 1:16:30.240 four or five moves in chess to see how did 1:16:30.320 --> 1:16:33.160 we get in this situation. It's not just because of 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:37.200 that last move, it's because of the last ten moves. Yeah. 1:16:38.360 --> 1:16:40.720 And one of the things that you bring up that 1:16:40.840 --> 1:16:42.880 I like is that if you're looking for kind of 1:16:43.360 --> 1:16:46.839 a historical example of a collapse that that most mirrors 1:16:46.880 --> 1:16:48.560 that we tend to look at it in fiction, it 1:16:48.600 --> 1:16:52.400 would probably be what happened to the indigenous population of 1:16:52.640 --> 1:16:57.600 particularly like North America um after the arrival of colonizers, 1:16:57.720 --> 1:16:59.920 which was by a lot of accounts like ninety per 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:02.880 scent of the population dead within a fairly short span 1:17:02.960 --> 1:17:06.800 of time, primarily from disease. This this really rapid and 1:17:06.960 --> 1:17:11.599 cataclysmic um um shock. But also, at the same time, 1:17:11.640 --> 1:17:14.280 as much as it does seem to mirror some of 1:17:14.360 --> 1:17:17.120 our you know, kind of fictional depictions of of viral 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:21.360 outbreaks or other sort of of of societal calamities, um 1:17:21.479 --> 1:17:24.920 the ways in which people survived don't really in any 1:17:25.439 --> 1:17:28.719 meaningful way mirror the are are kind of popular fictional 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:31.040 depiction of like who makes it out of that sort 1:17:31.080 --> 1:17:35.040 of a situation, you know, the the strapping military veteran 1:17:35.120 --> 1:17:37.280 with a rifle and a stockpile of food or whatever. 1:17:37.439 --> 1:17:43.320 You know. Yeah, yeah, that that, you know. I would 1:17:43.439 --> 1:17:46.759 say that certainly having these skills to keep yourself alive 1:17:47.360 --> 1:17:49.760 is important, and it is true that if you don't 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:51.840 make it through the first thirty days, you're not gonna 1:17:51.880 --> 1:17:56.439 make it through the next thirty years. But um, yeah, 1:17:56.479 --> 1:18:00.919 the way people survive outside of a few days perhaps 1:18:01.360 --> 1:18:04.479 when they're dealing with some of these uh, what we 1:18:04.520 --> 1:18:07.840 would think of the survival situations is this a community? 1:18:08.120 --> 1:18:11.400 I mean we see that with uh, you know, when 1:18:11.479 --> 1:18:14.959 we look at the Native American history in North America. 1:18:15.720 --> 1:18:20.120 You know, even as populations and entire groups were being 1:18:21.000 --> 1:18:27.320 decimated by these diseases, sometimes of a village in a 1:18:27.400 --> 1:18:32.840 single winner from a wave or waves of disease, even 1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:36.880 in the in the face of that, they reconstituted themselves 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:44.240 as communities, sometimes um multi ethnic or multicultural communities. I mean, 1:18:44.280 --> 1:18:48.400 there was a whole variety of ways in which people regrouped. 1:18:48.520 --> 1:18:50.720 And I think that that you know, that was the 1:18:50.840 --> 1:18:54.080 message and you know, part of the uh, this image 1:18:54.120 --> 1:18:58.040 of you know, grabbing your bugout bag and heading out 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:04.400 to the hills is um, it's just doesn't work, you know. 1:19:04.640 --> 1:19:08.960 And and the the stockpiling you know as well. Um, 1:19:09.520 --> 1:19:13.240 and so yeah, when we look archaeologically, you know, we 1:19:13.400 --> 1:19:16.720 always see communications. Yeah, and that's something we really try 1:19:16.800 --> 1:19:19.760 to encourage people do on this show, where obviously some 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:23.320 amount of disaster preparation is is not just helpful, but 1:19:23.520 --> 1:19:25.800 is I think kind of morally necessary if it's at 1:19:25.800 --> 1:19:28.360 all financially feasible for you. You know it is you 1:19:28.479 --> 1:19:31.479 are it is absolutely the right thing to do to 1:19:31.520 --> 1:19:34.760 try to have two three weeks of of relatively storable food, 1:19:34.920 --> 1:19:39.120 some water, um, you know, some other emergency supplies. But 1:19:39.520 --> 1:19:41.400 kind of beyond that, as you said that first, like 1:19:41.600 --> 1:19:44.599 thirty days, if you actually want not just to live, 1:19:44.720 --> 1:19:47.880 but to have you know, life, have any kind of meaning, Um, 1:19:48.360 --> 1:19:53.000 you have to be thinking in a community oriented situation. Yeah, 1:19:53.160 --> 1:19:55.719 I mean, because ultimately, you know, what's the difference between 1:19:55.760 --> 1:19:58.960 two weeks or two months worth of food? Right? You know, 1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:02.479 it's good to be gone and you know you have 1:20:02.760 --> 1:20:05.720 to come back. You know. One of the things in 1:20:06.120 --> 1:20:09.800 researching for this for this book, one of the things 1:20:09.840 --> 1:20:14.200 I looked at was the history of how we made 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:18.000 a living, uh and the history of agriculture. And one 1:20:18.080 --> 1:20:21.160 of the things that, you know, that that I found 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:25.760 was that the last time that humans lived where a 1:20:26.080 --> 1:20:30.439 significant portion of the population was hunters and gatherers, that is, 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:36.200 not farmers, there was like one of the current population, 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:39.240 you know, less than five million people in the world. 1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:44.840 So even a catastrophic disaster that you know, reduced us 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:52.320 to of you knowent of current population, we're still going 1:20:52.400 --> 1:20:54.759 to have more people in the world than ever lived 1:20:54.880 --> 1:21:00.240 without agriculture, and so we're gonna have to uh uh 1:21:01.360 --> 1:21:05.160 recreate some of these systems. And you know, agriculture by 1:21:05.160 --> 1:21:08.439 and large is going to be a community based. Yeah system, 1:21:08.640 --> 1:21:10.840 it's uh, I mean, you can garden on your own, 1:21:10.960 --> 1:21:14.040 but but the way that it needs to work is 1:21:14.400 --> 1:21:18.400 is going to be a collective Yeah. And I think, um, yeah, 1:21:18.439 --> 1:21:20.599 this is we talk a lot about. I actually live 1:21:20.720 --> 1:21:23.320 with a couple of wilderness survival instructors and we have 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:25.120 about an acre of land and we do a decent 1:21:25.200 --> 1:21:29.559 amount of of of you know, gardening, you know, animal 1:21:29.680 --> 1:21:31.560 husbandry and that sort of thing, and it it is. 1:21:32.160 --> 1:21:34.320 Um I've I've spent a lot of my life on farm, 1:21:34.400 --> 1:21:36.200 so I've kind of always had an appreciation for how 1:21:36.280 --> 1:21:38.120 much work it is. And one of the things we 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:40.840 try to talk about on this show regularly is the 1:21:40.960 --> 1:21:43.880 value of even just having a garden of things like 1:21:44.000 --> 1:21:47.280 guerrilla gardening. Not because I'm not one of those people 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:49.080 who thinks that like, oh, we need to replace industrial 1:21:49.160 --> 1:21:52.320 agriculture with like individuals tending small gardens. That's not going 1:21:52.400 --> 1:21:55.800 to work, but because the more you kind of interface 1:21:55.920 --> 1:21:59.040 directly with the concept of growing food and with working 1:21:59.120 --> 1:22:01.040 with other people in order to do that, the more 1:22:01.120 --> 1:22:03.639 prepared you are for any number of things that could 1:22:03.680 --> 1:22:05.640 go wrong, Like even if those things don't involve a 1:22:05.680 --> 1:22:07.800 crunch in the food supply lines, the connections you make 1:22:07.840 --> 1:22:09.720 with people doing that sort of work will be more 1:22:09.800 --> 1:22:13.040 valuable than an extra two months of stockpiles. You know, 1:22:13.160 --> 1:22:15.400 when you're in your food buckets or whatever, you're Alex 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:19.599 Jones dried food buckets. Yeah, well that's that's absolutely right. 1:22:19.680 --> 1:22:21.680 And you know, one of the things that occurred to 1:22:21.760 --> 1:22:25.320 me looking into the past at some of these uh, 1:22:26.000 --> 1:22:28.759 you know, collapses or declines that had happened in the past, 1:22:28.920 --> 1:22:35.599 was that a huge percent of the population um um 1:22:37.640 --> 1:22:41.560 was engaged directly in agriculture. And you know here in 1:22:41.640 --> 1:22:44.640 the well in the industrialized world is typically less than 1:22:44.720 --> 1:22:47.519 five percent less than that even in the United States. 1:22:47.920 --> 1:22:52.160 Most people like me don't uh, don't engage in it. 1:22:52.439 --> 1:22:55.680 And you know, I know something about gardening, perhaps like 1:22:55.800 --> 1:22:59.000 everybody else, but I'm not a farmer. I don't really 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:03.680 have that wisdom. And if I had to do that, um, 1:23:05.320 --> 1:23:08.400 you know, probably it's like a lot of other things. 1:23:08.479 --> 1:23:11.280 When everything is easy, it's not so bad when you 1:23:11.360 --> 1:23:13.840 know when it goes bad, it really helps to know 1:23:13.920 --> 1:23:18.000 what you're doing. Um. And of course everything goes bad 1:23:18.160 --> 1:23:22.360 sooner or later and so um. You know, that's that 1:23:22.560 --> 1:23:26.120 kind of things very important, you know. And I think 1:23:26.200 --> 1:23:34.360 also there could certainly local systems and some flexible scale 1:23:35.160 --> 1:23:39.000 would be really important, you know. So I'm also, like you, 1:23:39.120 --> 1:23:42.120 a proponent of of this sort of thing. You know, 1:23:42.160 --> 1:23:44.519 if we can get everybody to participate in ways that 1:23:44.600 --> 1:23:47.600 we aren't now, that will give us some flexibility. What 1:23:47.720 --> 1:23:50.639 if what if we do have supply chain problems, Well, 1:23:50.840 --> 1:23:52.560 we have a number of people in the community that 1:23:52.640 --> 1:23:55.840 are already doing some of this stuff that could maybe 1:23:55.920 --> 1:24:02.120 be expanded or get us through this period. So yeah, yeah, 1:24:02.160 --> 1:24:04.200 I mean, even if you're not like dealing with everyone's 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:06.200 caloric needs, it could be as simple as because of 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:09.479 where you're located, you know, when when the oranges and 1:24:09.560 --> 1:24:11.360 other kind of fruits aren't able to come in from 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:13.760 a supply line, thing there's a shortage of vitamin C, 1:24:13.920 --> 1:24:16.840 and then knowing how to make teata pine needles or whatever, 1:24:16.920 --> 1:24:18.840 or what kind of plants have a lot of vitamin C. 1:24:19.400 --> 1:24:22.360 You know, even though you're not you're not focused on 1:24:22.520 --> 1:24:26.439 meeting everyone's you know, entire caloric needs through small scale farming, 1:24:26.479 --> 1:24:28.840 but you can deal with the a nutrient deficiency or 1:24:28.880 --> 1:24:32.000 something because you understand your environment a little bit better. Yeah, 1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:35.280 and you know, probably quality of life issues too. I mean, 1:24:35.600 --> 1:24:40.160 you know, for uh, you know kids, and you know 1:24:40.240 --> 1:24:43.320 there's there's lots of there's lots of ways you can 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:47.479 survive that are pretty miserable. So you want to you 1:24:47.600 --> 1:24:51.479 want to try to uh direct it towards those that 1:24:51.680 --> 1:24:54.840 are desirable. And I think part of that is having 1:24:54.880 --> 1:24:58.000 this flexibility, having this knowledge, having a lot of people 1:24:58.560 --> 1:25:00.479 involved in things. And you know, one of the things 1:25:00.560 --> 1:25:03.519 I talked about in in my book or ideas of 1:25:03.720 --> 1:25:06.400 you know, diversity and inclusion, which we talk about in 1:25:06.520 --> 1:25:12.000 certain ways now and often I think unfortunately it's talked about, 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:17.240 is if it's done to benefit the people that are 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:21.759 marginalized and left out only and while it is partly 1:25:21.880 --> 1:25:25.200 that it benefits everybody, of course, I mean, anyone in 1:25:25.280 --> 1:25:30.040 a business knows, anybody in a university knows the benefits 1:25:30.160 --> 1:25:34.880 of of diversity. In the same way anybody that's trying 1:25:34.960 --> 1:25:38.639 to do something understands the benefit of a diverse range 1:25:38.680 --> 1:25:42.800 of experiences. You know. That's why we make these multidisciplinary 1:25:42.920 --> 1:25:45.640 teams that go out and do things. Uh, you know, 1:25:45.800 --> 1:25:49.360 it's so that you have this this wide variety that 1:25:49.680 --> 1:25:53.120 can help you keep going. Yeah. And one of the 1:25:53.200 --> 1:25:55.560 things that I really found fascinating in your book and 1:25:55.640 --> 1:25:57.360 that that kind of made me feel a little bit 1:25:57.800 --> 1:26:00.519 um bad as I you know, I've I've I've spent 1:26:00.560 --> 1:26:04.479 a lot of time thinking about the what happened, what 1:26:04.720 --> 1:26:06.599 was done to and what also just kind of happened 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:09.360 as a result of the way diseases spread when when 1:26:09.479 --> 1:26:12.760 colonizers reached North America. I had never really devoted that 1:26:12.880 --> 1:26:17.680 much thought to the actual actions that in different indigenous 1:26:17.680 --> 1:26:20.840 groups took consciously to prevent to protect themselves from the 1:26:20.840 --> 1:26:23.880 spread of diseases. You mentioned the Cherokee in particular, Um, 1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:26.000 in your book. Could you talk a little bit more 1:26:26.000 --> 1:26:28.640 about that, because that's something as soon as I read it, 1:26:28.680 --> 1:26:30.120 I marked that page because I'm like, I need to 1:26:30.160 --> 1:26:32.880 look up what the studies he's referencing, because I I 1:26:32.960 --> 1:26:36.760 don't know anything about this. Yeah, that, Um, you know, 1:26:37.080 --> 1:26:39.280 a lot of that stems from the research of of 1:26:39.360 --> 1:26:46.559 some other archaeologists and they you know what, You're exactly right. 1:26:46.640 --> 1:26:48.760 We don't think about that. We're not taught about it 1:26:48.880 --> 1:26:52.120 that way. You know. We sort of have this this 1:26:52.640 --> 1:26:58.400 contradictory and sort of u uh doubly problematic way of 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:02.400 talking about this. For for a long time, we denied 1:27:03.120 --> 1:27:07.479 sort of the how traumatic and how much of a 1:27:07.560 --> 1:27:14.519 genocide it was when Europeans arrived. Um. And then after 1:27:14.760 --> 1:27:18.200 denying that, we sort of say, well, Native Americans are 1:27:18.880 --> 1:27:22.200 gone and no longer relevant, so we can cease to 1:27:22.280 --> 1:27:26.280 talk about them. Of course that's not true. And one 1:27:26.360 --> 1:27:28.639 of the things that we see when we look more 1:27:28.880 --> 1:27:32.640 in detail at the histories or we listen to the 1:27:32.760 --> 1:27:35.040 oral histories, or we look at the archaeology. Is that 1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:38.960 there are a number of things that that that people 1:27:39.280 --> 1:27:46.519 did and do to um uh uh to create the 1:27:46.600 --> 1:27:48.800 outcomes that they want. And that was no different for 1:27:48.880 --> 1:27:51.760 the Native American groups, you know, I mean, they had 1:27:51.880 --> 1:27:55.960 ways of dealing with disease, and some of them will 1:27:56.040 --> 1:28:01.639 be will be able to understand it via our sort 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:09.480 of our system right isolating people cleanliness of minimizing contact 1:28:09.600 --> 1:28:14.360 expect especially with sort of problematic groups like the Colonizer's 1:28:15.160 --> 1:28:18.080 um you know. But in other ways, there are things 1:28:18.240 --> 1:28:22.800 that are gonna be unfamiliar to us and we're not 1:28:22.960 --> 1:28:26.800 gonna see the effectiveness or the value in it. But 1:28:26.920 --> 1:28:29.920 one of the things that that all of these things did, 1:28:30.080 --> 1:28:35.720 that these groups were doing was created or maintained um 1:28:36.640 --> 1:28:43.960 group identity and cohesion and allowed the perseverance of of community. 1:28:44.800 --> 1:28:49.400 And so there are um you know, it's it's easy 1:28:49.479 --> 1:28:52.439 to think about people as sort of passive victims of something, 1:28:52.680 --> 1:28:56.960 especially when it serves your purpose to to think about 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:59.439 it in these ways, and we just see that it's 1:28:59.520 --> 1:29:02.960 it's not the case. Yeah, there was a remarkable moment 1:29:03.000 --> 1:29:05.160 in the book and I think it was from when 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:08.000 you were in Honduras where you you talk about you're 1:29:08.040 --> 1:29:10.560 finding pottery shirts and they have these specific kind of 1:29:10.640 --> 1:29:13.040 markings on them from I don't like a thousand years 1:29:13.040 --> 1:29:15.639 ago or so. And you also know a local woman 1:29:15.680 --> 1:29:18.000 who's a potter and she's putting the same markings on 1:29:18.640 --> 1:29:20.720 and you ask her why and her answer is like, well, 1:29:20.760 --> 1:29:24.280 because the pottery shirts that we find from our ancestors 1:29:24.360 --> 1:29:27.240 have those on them. And my initial thought was like, oh, 1:29:28.080 --> 1:29:31.400 what a shame that she doesn't know what those originally meant. 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:33.360 But then I thought like, well, but is that any 1:29:33.439 --> 1:29:35.479 different from like all of the different things that that 1:29:35.680 --> 1:29:38.240 I do because their traditions, because like they're things that 1:29:38.360 --> 1:29:41.280 like people a thousand years ago in in in my 1:29:41.520 --> 1:29:44.080 line did like, no, it's not like it's it's just 1:29:44.200 --> 1:29:46.400 what people do, and it is a continuation, and it's 1:29:46.400 --> 1:29:50.519 a very there's um, that's a that's that's survival, you know, 1:29:50.760 --> 1:29:54.880 that's that's conscious survival. Yeah, you know, and in that case, 1:29:54.960 --> 1:29:59.840 of course, whatever it meant initially, it now means that 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:05.280 to her, right, So there's the meaning, you know, um, 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:11.320 And so it's it's interesting, you know, one of the 1:30:11.439 --> 1:30:14.679 things you know, I'm from and I live in Kentucky. 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:19.880 And one of the things, especially when people come to 1:30:19.960 --> 1:30:24.280 say Appalachians, they're looking for sort of authentic Appalachian Kentucky, 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:28.360 you know, um, and they already have an idea what 1:30:28.560 --> 1:30:32.559 that is. And if you don't see it, because that's 1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:36.000 not really what people do, then the response is never, 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:39.479 oh my idea is about what is authentic? Might be erroneous. 1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:43.880 It's I wonder why I didn't see authentic Appalachians. You know. 1:30:44.240 --> 1:30:49.760 It's like, well you did, but you know there's gonna 1:30:49.840 --> 1:30:53.160 be more hip hop and punk groups than there are 1:30:53.400 --> 1:30:59.759 bluegrass groups because you know, these are twenty year old kids. 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:02.360 You know, they're doing this as much as this other 1:31:02.479 --> 1:31:06.600 stuff and uh, you know more probably, And so that 1:31:07.000 --> 1:31:11.599 that is something, uh that that I think of often 1:31:11.800 --> 1:31:14.280 as an archaeologist. You know, my focus is in the past. 1:31:14.840 --> 1:31:16.960 But if I'm going to understand things, of course you 1:31:17.120 --> 1:31:19.640 also have to understand how are people thinking about in 1:31:19.680 --> 1:31:21.479 the present, and how am I thinking about it in 1:31:21.520 --> 1:31:25.800 the present, because you know, everything, all the stories I 1:31:25.880 --> 1:31:28.599 tell about the past are coming out of are coming 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:31.320 out of my experience in the present too, And it's 1:31:31.400 --> 1:31:34.439 hard to uh it's hard to separate those and that 1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:37.479 really the best we can do is try to, um, 1:31:38.800 --> 1:31:41.360 you know, reflect on that and see how is it 1:31:41.479 --> 1:31:44.080 that I might be limiting my understanding because of my 1:31:44.280 --> 1:31:47.880 particular experience. And one of the things I really like 1:31:48.000 --> 1:31:50.560 about your book that I also found fascinating, So it's I, 1:31:50.760 --> 1:31:53.880 you know, I I for a while did um conflict journalism, 1:31:53.920 --> 1:31:57.280 and before when when that was just an ambition of mine, 1:31:57.280 --> 1:31:59.000 Before I started to do it, I would see the 1:31:59.120 --> 1:32:01.640 articles that were being written by all these war correspondents, 1:32:01.640 --> 1:32:03.400 and I would just be in awe of like how 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:05.639 did they get that story? How did they get that access? 1:32:05.680 --> 1:32:07.640 How did they must have put so much work in? 1:32:07.720 --> 1:32:09.439 And then when I actually got there, I realized like, 1:32:09.680 --> 1:32:12.320 oh no, they met they made a contact with the 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:14.320 local who was good at it, and that person showed 1:32:14.360 --> 1:32:16.559 them around and made all these connections, and like, actually, 1:32:16.640 --> 1:32:19.600 none of this work happens without these local fixers. And 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:23.799 you make the point that in archaeology you're not generally 1:32:23.920 --> 1:32:27.240 discovering things like even when you're finding shipwrecks, it's because 1:32:27.320 --> 1:32:29.320 these sailors who lived nearby were like, well, yeah, a 1:32:29.400 --> 1:32:32.400 bunch of shipwrecks over there like this is where you're 1:32:32.400 --> 1:32:34.880 gonna go find them. You know, It's always the way 1:32:34.920 --> 1:32:39.519 it is, you know, there um um. And the example 1:32:39.600 --> 1:32:41.600 you're talking about, I was part of this project in 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:44.679 Forney in Greece, which you know, made the news because 1:32:44.760 --> 1:32:48.240 we found so many shipwrecks there something ultimately like fifty 1:32:48.280 --> 1:32:53.040 shipwrecks around this island. Um and almost all of them 1:32:53.120 --> 1:32:56.080 were shown to us by local folks. Uh you know 1:32:56.439 --> 1:33:00.080 that sponge divers or people that were fish or so, 1:33:00.800 --> 1:33:02.640 you know, people that were out on the water all 1:33:02.720 --> 1:33:05.479 the time. And the few that we found by ourselves, 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:07.640 I'm sure people knew about them. We just stumbled on 1:33:07.720 --> 1:33:10.080 them before somebody had a chance to to show us. 1:33:10.600 --> 1:33:13.320 It's the same way in in the Honduras. Would we 1:33:13.400 --> 1:33:17.120 would be walking through the rainforest and you know, maybe 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:19.960 we've been walking for a week, so we're way out 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:24.760 in the middle of this place. People were constantly telling me, 1:33:24.920 --> 1:33:27.040 the guys that I was with, would say, Okay, if 1:33:27.080 --> 1:33:30.040 we go up this creek, you know, for about six hours, 1:33:30.080 --> 1:33:32.040 and we go over here, here's what we'd find. Here's 1:33:32.080 --> 1:33:34.160 what we'd find over here, Here's what we find over here. 1:33:34.840 --> 1:33:39.479 They knew where everything was Um. And that's you know, 1:33:39.600 --> 1:33:43.160 one of the things that you uh uh uh that 1:33:43.400 --> 1:33:46.040 that you learned is you know how reliant you are 1:33:46.120 --> 1:33:50.800 on people that live in a place. I mean, they 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:54.360 just know it. Yeah, there's no Um, when you get 1:33:54.479 --> 1:33:56.200 right down to it, is as obsessed as we are 1:33:56.320 --> 1:33:58.280 kind of in in the Western Cannon with the idea 1:33:58.320 --> 1:34:02.200 of lost cities. Um, that's not really a thing that 1:34:02.320 --> 1:34:07.040 tends to happen. Um. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not. 1:34:07.360 --> 1:34:09.640 And and in fact, most of the archaeological sites that 1:34:09.760 --> 1:34:13.080 people didn't know about it was just because they were 1:34:13.160 --> 1:34:17.479 so small and ephemeral that no one really paid attention anything. Yeah, 1:34:17.520 --> 1:34:23.639 there's no lost city there. They're always known for somebody. Well, Chris, 1:34:23.800 --> 1:34:25.800 I think that's that's most of what I wanted to 1:34:25.840 --> 1:34:28.880 get into in this conversation. I'm wondering before we kind 1:34:28.880 --> 1:34:31.479 of close out, because you you are both the author 1:34:31.520 --> 1:34:33.559 of this book, The Next Apocalypse, which is I think 1:34:33.600 --> 1:34:36.599 a fascinating way of looking at the idea of things 1:34:36.680 --> 1:34:40.080 Paul falling apart and a wilderness survival instructor. If you're 1:34:40.080 --> 1:34:44.040 going to suggest people, you know, a practical kit bag 1:34:44.160 --> 1:34:47.640 to prepare for short and kind of long term problems. 1:34:47.960 --> 1:34:50.880 What are you what are you putting in your bag? Well, 1:34:51.200 --> 1:34:54.240 you know there's the two main things, uh that you're 1:34:54.240 --> 1:34:58.759 always gonna want is is a knife because that allows 1:34:58.800 --> 1:35:00.880 you to make a lot of other things, and a 1:35:01.000 --> 1:35:04.439 way to start fire, you know, and we've all seen 1:35:04.520 --> 1:35:07.599 in the movies rubbing sticks together and you know, friction 1:35:07.680 --> 1:35:11.040 methods and that works, and you can do that, but 1:35:11.200 --> 1:35:14.479 it is incredibly difficult to pain in the butt, you know, 1:35:14.640 --> 1:35:16.880 and for most of us that don't do it all 1:35:16.960 --> 1:35:20.479 the time, Uh, you're just not gonna be able to 1:35:20.560 --> 1:35:22.600 do it when it's forty degrees in raining and you 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:25.439 really need a fire. You know, you'll be able to 1:35:25.520 --> 1:35:28.840 do it when it's a hundred degrees and dry, you know, uh, 1:35:29.360 --> 1:35:33.040 because everything is about to catch on fire anyway. But uh, 1:35:33.439 --> 1:35:36.439 you know so um and what would what would that 1:35:36.600 --> 1:35:39.479 look like? Well, uh, you need something that will catch 1:35:39.520 --> 1:35:41.840 on fire pretty quickly. And the thing I always takes 1:35:41.960 --> 1:35:45.040 cotton balls. You know, if you take cotton balls and 1:35:45.160 --> 1:35:50.439 a disposable lighter or one of those uh fire starter sticks, 1:35:50.479 --> 1:35:54.040 it will make sparks. Um that those cotton balls will 1:35:54.280 --> 1:35:57.720 catch fire instantly. And if you take one and you 1:35:58.080 --> 1:36:00.760 coat half of it with petroleum jelly. Then not only 1:36:00.800 --> 1:36:04.000 what catch fire, it will burn you know for you 1:36:04.080 --> 1:36:06.720 know a minute or so, long enough to catch other 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:09.960 stuff on fire. So you know, making fire and having 1:36:10.080 --> 1:36:13.840 some sort of cutting tool are the very basic things. 1:36:13.960 --> 1:36:21.439 But um, you know, the beyond that, I would say, uh, 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:26.360 you know, clothing or some sort of shelter is is 1:36:26.479 --> 1:36:29.519 the other thing. You know, exposure to elements will kill 1:36:29.560 --> 1:36:33.840 you quicker than anything, and so having some way to 1:36:34.600 --> 1:36:37.720 uh to protect yourself and that's usually gonna be you know, 1:36:37.880 --> 1:36:40.519 first line of defense going to be your clothes. And 1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:43.720 one of the things that that you'll know anybody that 1:36:43.880 --> 1:36:49.000 that deals with sort of survival situations is that most 1:36:49.040 --> 1:36:51.880 people that really get in trouble with things like hypothermia, 1:36:52.560 --> 1:36:55.400 you know, it's not when it's thirty degrees below and 1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:58.360 they're out doing something. It's when it's fifty degrees and 1:36:58.520 --> 1:37:01.840 sunny and they're out in a T shirt during the 1:37:01.960 --> 1:37:04.719 day and then at night it drops to thirty degrees 1:37:05.560 --> 1:37:12.040 and you know they're stuck out somewhere with without proper clothing. 1:37:12.160 --> 1:37:15.880 That's that is when things get really dangerous. So you know, 1:37:16.160 --> 1:37:18.040 I would say, you know, if you can have some 1:37:18.120 --> 1:37:22.440 way to start fire, some sort of knife, and appropriate 1:37:22.560 --> 1:37:26.840 clothes for spending the night out. You know then then uh, 1:37:27.040 --> 1:37:32.200 and you're probably in pretty good shape for most situations. Yeah. Well, Chris, 1:37:32.400 --> 1:37:34.599 thank you so much for talking with with us today. 1:37:34.840 --> 1:37:39.439 Chris Begley, underwater archaeologist, author of the Next Apocalypse, The 1:37:39.640 --> 1:37:42.880 Art of Science and Survival. Chris, is there anything you'd 1:37:42.920 --> 1:37:44.559 liked else you'd like to say or kind of get 1:37:44.600 --> 1:37:48.400 into before we close out for the day. No, just 1:37:48.520 --> 1:37:51.519 thank you very much for for reading the book and 1:37:51.720 --> 1:37:54.760 for reaching out to talk with me, because I think that, 1:37:54.960 --> 1:37:59.160 you know, especially now as we go into sort of 1:37:59.200 --> 1:38:02.679 an uncertain future. I mean, future is always uncertain, I suppose, 1:38:02.760 --> 1:38:07.360 but um as you know, we're really recognizing some of 1:38:07.400 --> 1:38:11.080 these challenges. You know, I really am hoping that this 1:38:11.240 --> 1:38:17.599 sort of um uh, community based idea becomes the way 1:38:17.680 --> 1:38:20.320 we think about things. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean 1:38:20.400 --> 1:38:23.120 it's easy or that we're gonna like it. It doesn't 1:38:23.120 --> 1:38:25.080 mean that that's what I want. I mean, tell you 1:38:25.160 --> 1:38:26.960 the truth, I would love it if it was just 1:38:27.560 --> 1:38:31.320 me out in the woods with my family. You know, 1:38:31.479 --> 1:38:34.720 I can do that. It's much harder to be part 1:38:34.760 --> 1:38:36.640 of a community and make things work for a big 1:38:36.720 --> 1:38:39.840 group of people, but that's just the way it's gonna be. Yeah, 1:38:40.560 --> 1:38:42.920 and that's that's ultimately the way in which you have 1:38:43.000 --> 1:38:47.680 a lot more real security because I think, um uh, 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:52.120 I think people I don't know. The world seems so 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:55.240 complex and messy that it's easy to imagine that that 1:38:55.400 --> 1:38:58.960 safety comes from getting away from the world. But historically 1:38:59.040 --> 1:39:03.360 that's just not how it works. Now, the world finds you. 1:39:03.760 --> 1:39:07.120 You know, it's the best. Being part of a group 1:39:07.320 --> 1:39:12.800 is always best, and your your little group can never 1:39:15.160 --> 1:39:17.320 defend against the big group. I mean, if we want 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:19.800 to put it in those terms, you know, you can't 1:39:19.960 --> 1:39:26.160 just hoard everything and uh, it just doesn't work. Might 1:39:26.240 --> 1:39:28.720 work for a little while, but yeah, so that you 1:39:28.800 --> 1:39:31.400 know that for me, that's the message I'm hoping, Yeah, 1:39:31.800 --> 1:39:34.880 people take from it. Well, Thank you very much, Chris. 1:39:35.240 --> 1:39:37.080 For those of you listening at home again, please do 1:39:37.280 --> 1:39:40.240 check out The Next Apocalypse The Art and Science of 1:39:40.320 --> 1:39:42.960 Survival by Chris Begley. That's going to do it for 1:39:43.080 --> 1:39:45.519 us all today. Chris, Thank you again, and have a 1:39:45.560 --> 1:40:02.360 wonderful day, are you too? Thank you wrote Oh boy, 1:40:03.120 --> 1:40:07.280 it could happen here. That's the name of the podcast. 1:40:07.800 --> 1:40:13.320 And I'm Robert Evans, the guy hosting the podcast. Who 1:40:13.400 --> 1:40:15.719 else is with me? Is it? Is it? Garrison? Hello, 1:40:15.880 --> 1:40:20.960 Good morning, afternoon evening. Garrison Davis. Not yet a doctor 1:40:21.040 --> 1:40:24.679 Garrison Davis, not yet, soon soon to be Dr Garrison Davis. 1:40:25.800 --> 1:40:27.960 I don't know if you're going to pass the exam 1:40:28.080 --> 1:40:29.800 that I know you're gonna have to pass in order 1:40:29.840 --> 1:40:33.360 to get through this class. But yeah, a little teaser 1:40:33.439 --> 1:40:36.320 for the future. Speaking of the future, this is a 1:40:36.400 --> 1:40:39.120 podcast about the ways in which the future is going 1:40:39.160 --> 1:40:40.960 to be real fucked up and ways in which maybe 1:40:41.000 --> 1:40:43.040 we could try to make it less sucked up. Um. 1:40:43.120 --> 1:40:46.240 And today we have on a guest, Mr Calvin Norman, 1:40:46.640 --> 1:40:49.439 who posted a thread on our sub breddit with the 1:40:50.479 --> 1:40:54.400 very simple, very unsettling title the woods are Bad. Um 1:40:54.640 --> 1:40:57.560 And Calvin, you want to introduce your yourself, your credentials 1:40:57.600 --> 1:40:59.080 and what you were trying to get across in that 1:40:59.160 --> 1:41:02.320 thread because I found it very affecting. Yeah, thanks for ever. 1:41:02.520 --> 1:41:05.600 So my name is, like you said, Calvin Norman, I 1:41:06.080 --> 1:41:08.439 work in forestry. I've worked in forestry for a while now. 1:41:08.439 --> 1:41:11.360 I used to be an industrial forester in the Great 1:41:11.479 --> 1:41:14.519 Lakes region. So like Wisconsin, Michigan. Then I worked in 1:41:14.560 --> 1:41:17.800 the Southeast. I did my masters down there, and now 1:41:17.840 --> 1:41:19.400 I'm in the mid Atlantic. So I've I've kind of 1:41:19.479 --> 1:41:21.800 been around the eastern United States. I haven't gotten that 1:41:21.880 --> 1:41:25.200 west yet, but and I'm a certified forest or candidate 1:41:25.200 --> 1:41:26.960 certified forest I've got a year left on that, so 1:41:27.280 --> 1:41:29.559 I been around. I also do wildlife stuff. It's pretty 1:41:29.560 --> 1:41:32.599 fun and yeah, your your thread. What I found interesting 1:41:32.680 --> 1:41:34.679 that I have a good friend who is in forestry 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:37.120 or was in forestry at least and got their degree 1:41:37.280 --> 1:41:39.479 and that, and we were we were at hunting in 1:41:39.880 --> 1:41:44.280 the Cascades a little earlier or a little later last year. Um, 1:41:44.439 --> 1:41:46.400 and there's this wonderful moment. We've been following a game 1:41:46.439 --> 1:41:48.800 trail up like this Steve hill side and it was 1:41:48.840 --> 1:41:50.639 kind of a clearing where we were a clear cut, 1:41:50.680 --> 1:41:52.200 but there's deep brush all around. And we get to 1:41:52.240 --> 1:41:53.519 the top of this thing. We look out and we 1:41:53.640 --> 1:41:56.200 just see, you know, these these rolling mountains of the 1:41:56.280 --> 1:41:59.679 Cascades all covered in this the most this lush, beautiful 1:41:59.760 --> 1:42:02.600 green near all these these pine trees and everything. And 1:42:02.840 --> 1:42:05.599 my friend says to me, it's going to be totally 1:42:05.640 --> 1:42:08.679 different in twenty years. Um, it's already a different forest 1:42:08.680 --> 1:42:10.280 than the one I grew up with, and and that 1:42:10.479 --> 1:42:12.439 that is that is kind of the cliffs notes of 1:42:12.520 --> 1:42:14.559 what what you're You're getting too a lot of detail here, 1:42:14.560 --> 1:42:16.720 and I'm wondering if you could just kind of like, yeah, 1:42:16.840 --> 1:42:20.360 start on that explained kind of what's actually happening in 1:42:20.479 --> 1:42:22.120 our woods, or at least the woods that that you're 1:42:22.240 --> 1:42:25.800 comfortable talking about here. It's a big yeah, yeah, this 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:27.559 is a big content and you have a pretty good 1:42:27.600 --> 1:42:30.760 international base. And I can't speak for the Europeans or 1:42:30.840 --> 1:42:33.120 the Canadians. There's a whole different ball game over there. 1:42:33.160 --> 1:42:37.120 And tropical stuff is just wild, yeah, really cool about 1:42:37.120 --> 1:42:40.960 wild stuff. So mainly talked about the US, mainly Eastern 1:42:41.040 --> 1:42:44.360 United States. So if you look at the eastern United States, 1:42:44.640 --> 1:42:48.280 this is a forest that has never existed before in 1:42:48.360 --> 1:42:51.960 the history United States, UM previews. You know, prior to 1:42:52.080 --> 1:42:55.200 like nineteen twenty, our forest was like depending on the 1:42:55.280 --> 1:42:59.920 source of read, between twenty and chestnut with other species 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:02.320 mixed in there. And now we have a mainly oak 1:43:02.400 --> 1:43:05.000 dominated forest and we lost all of our chest into 1:43:05.040 --> 1:43:08.080 the chestnut blighte UM out Western You've got a couple 1:43:08.120 --> 1:43:10.240 of other things going on, but fire suppression is just 1:43:10.360 --> 1:43:12.720 changed the forest there. Uh, same here in the East 1:43:12.760 --> 1:43:15.360 coast and into the Midwest. You know, you used to 1:43:15.360 --> 1:43:17.600 see a lot more fires going through. I mean, so 1:43:17.680 --> 1:43:19.280 that was lightning strikes, but no doubt a lot of 1:43:19.320 --> 1:43:21.880 it was you know, intentionally set by the first nations 1:43:21.920 --> 1:43:24.120 and people before the people that we think of as 1:43:24.160 --> 1:43:27.679 the first nations. And um, you know that has mainly 1:43:27.760 --> 1:43:30.720 disappeared except for the southeast where fire has never really 1:43:30.760 --> 1:43:33.000 stopped being at the ground, which is really cool. But 1:43:33.160 --> 1:43:37.600 even their species is composition has changed dramatically. Um. A 1:43:37.720 --> 1:43:39.680 lot of what we're seeing, as you know, changes in 1:43:39.800 --> 1:43:42.680 human management. But there's also a number of invasive species 1:43:43.080 --> 1:43:46.160 that have changed things, you know, like chestnut blight, emberald 1:43:46.240 --> 1:43:49.200 ashbour asia, longhorn beetle is coming in. You know, those 1:43:49.240 --> 1:43:52.080 are just the past the understory. And you know, plants 1:43:52.160 --> 1:43:55.479 is a whole different ballgame. Um, it's it's it's all 1:43:55.600 --> 1:43:58.000 not great. It's all not great. I was talking with 1:43:58.080 --> 1:44:01.040 some colleagues that an agricultural show right before I posted that, 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:02.599 and we were talking about how the woods were bad, 1:44:03.240 --> 1:44:06.640 and we very easily laid out a scenario where we 1:44:06.760 --> 1:44:10.600 lost the most of our remaining dominantory species. It was 1:44:10.960 --> 1:44:13.000 not at all hard to do. It took about two minutes. 1:44:13.280 --> 1:44:16.639 So not great. Uh. And then the West coast things 1:44:16.680 --> 1:44:20.720 aren't great either. And when you're talking about when you're 1:44:20.760 --> 1:44:23.760 talking about losing these species and stuff like the chestnut light, 1:44:24.200 --> 1:44:26.080 where is that coming from? How much of that is 1:44:26.160 --> 1:44:28.559 sort of as a result of climate change? Like we're 1:44:28.560 --> 1:44:30.479 having a lot of tree species have trouble here in 1:44:30.560 --> 1:44:33.120 the West because of how much hotter the summers are 1:44:33.200 --> 1:44:35.720 and how much drier things have gotten. So how much 1:44:35.920 --> 1:44:37.439 how much of what you're saying where you are is 1:44:38.360 --> 1:44:40.640 because there's been changes to the climate, and how much 1:44:40.640 --> 1:44:42.400 of it is you know, I guess kind of like globalism, 1:44:42.479 --> 1:44:45.160 like people bringing in pests and bringing in blights and 1:44:45.240 --> 1:44:49.000 stuff from other areas and it spreads like wildfire. Well, 1:44:49.200 --> 1:44:51.000 I think that we're just starting to see the beginning 1:44:51.080 --> 1:44:54.360 of climate change, like driving species you know up the mountain, 1:44:55.040 --> 1:44:57.639 off the mountain out west and here, you know, out 1:44:57.680 --> 1:44:59.920 of certain regions, you know, as things are getting hotter 1:45:00.040 --> 1:45:02.880 and dryer or is you know, climates are becoming more extreme. 1:45:02.920 --> 1:45:05.920 You know, here in the Atlantic we had one of 1:45:05.960 --> 1:45:07.519 the wettest years on record. I think it was like 1:45:07.640 --> 1:45:10.240 five or seven, whereas in the Midwest they had droughts, 1:45:10.280 --> 1:45:12.519 but before that we had two years of drought, So 1:45:12.920 --> 1:45:15.600 you know, it's it's more extreme, and that's that's just 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:18.720 starting to take part. But the extinctions and near extinctions 1:45:19.040 --> 1:45:22.880 have been mainly due to non native pest um. And 1:45:23.040 --> 1:45:25.639 that's just most of it right there. Um, just because 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:28.040 we haven't really seen the start of climate change, yeah, 1:45:28.600 --> 1:45:31.479 impacting diseases. So like out west with the mountain pinebealle, 1:45:31.479 --> 1:45:34.680 you're seeing more generations of mountain pinebele comes through. I 1:45:34.760 --> 1:45:37.840 was just doing a presentation for some folks in South 1:45:37.960 --> 1:45:41.320 Dakota and something like a third of their total force 1:45:41.520 --> 1:45:46.560 was impacted by mountain pine beetle. Jeez. And and what 1:45:46.800 --> 1:45:48.720 is that like when you actually talk about this, these 1:45:48.800 --> 1:45:52.040 beetles coming in That's the kind of thing that even 1:45:52.080 --> 1:45:53.960 as we've gotten more comfortable talking about sort of of 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:56.840 of the different kind of collapses spawned by climate change, 1:45:57.240 --> 1:46:00.000 I think that they we tend to imagine more spectacle 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:03.679 peculiar things. These giants sweeping fires that burned through huge 1:46:03.760 --> 1:46:08.519 chunks of states, and these huge like environmental calamities. What 1:46:08.720 --> 1:46:10.840 is this like what happens when one of these beetles 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:13.120 hits a forest one of these beetles species obviously not 1:46:13.280 --> 1:46:16.559 like a singular beetle, Like what is actually like how 1:46:16.720 --> 1:46:19.519 quick is the effect and what kind of comes after that? Like, 1:46:19.640 --> 1:46:21.720 I I know, there's sort of a shock wave. It's 1:46:21.800 --> 1:46:23.320 kind of like a bomb going off. I'm interested in 1:46:23.400 --> 1:46:25.960 kind of tracing the root of that explosion, if that 1:46:26.040 --> 1:46:29.479 makes sense. Yeah, So it depends species. Its pecs. Chestnut 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:31.240 plate was really fast and it just seems to have 1:46:31.360 --> 1:46:34.360 torn through the chest and stative range. So chest that 1:46:34.479 --> 1:46:37.919 went from Florida to Maine and out west like Tennessee 1:46:38.160 --> 1:46:41.160 kind of area there um, and it just you know, 1:46:41.360 --> 1:46:44.240 in like something like fifteen years, the entire species gone. 1:46:44.640 --> 1:46:46.960 Emerald ash board has taken a little bit longer. Got 1:46:47.000 --> 1:46:48.680 here in the eighties, started kind of going off in 1:46:48.720 --> 1:46:50.960 the mid two thousands, and it's killed a couple of 1:46:51.040 --> 1:46:53.479 billion trees. So when that hits a small forest, you know, 1:46:53.560 --> 1:46:55.920 if it's a if it's a pretty you know, beetle, 1:46:55.960 --> 1:46:58.920 that kills pretty fast. Like emyld ashboard, it gets into 1:46:58.960 --> 1:47:01.599 your trees. It starts with one or two and then 1:47:01.680 --> 1:47:03.880 within four or five years it's it's in most of 1:47:03.960 --> 1:47:06.720 them in the forest, and then with emmoral lashboard they're 1:47:06.720 --> 1:47:09.960 dead and five hemlock William delG It is pretty similar. 1:47:10.000 --> 1:47:12.200 It'll just show up one day in a stand and 1:47:12.240 --> 1:47:15.240 then the hemlocks are dead within five seven years. Uh. 1:47:15.520 --> 1:47:18.720 And you know, sometimes you know what's going on, you know, 1:47:18.760 --> 1:47:21.360 because embal lashboard is very clear signs, and other times 1:47:21.680 --> 1:47:23.760 you don't know what's going on because the tree can't 1:47:23.760 --> 1:47:25.519 be so tall as all of a sudden, trees are 1:47:25.520 --> 1:47:28.560 getting thinner and thinner and then they're dead, or you 1:47:28.640 --> 1:47:31.760 have pests like um oak will and that in that 1:47:31.920 --> 1:47:34.519 trees are dead, you know, in two months, and then 1:47:34.560 --> 1:47:36.599 it spreads out like a circle. You know it kind 1:47:36.600 --> 1:47:40.320 of exactly when you see like a bacteria like growth 1:47:40.439 --> 1:47:43.560 medium with the bacteria spreading out, that's oak spreads and 1:47:43.600 --> 1:47:45.760 it's just like trees are dead, you know, two months 1:47:45.800 --> 1:47:49.839 and they spread out and out and out and scary sometimes. 1:47:50.439 --> 1:47:52.320 Is there anything that can be I mean it sounds 1:47:52.360 --> 1:47:54.360 like with with most of these cases, like with what's 1:47:54.360 --> 1:47:57.679 happened with kind of like the chestnuts, and it's it's 1:47:57.720 --> 1:47:59.559 too late for a lot of that. Is there anything 1:47:59.640 --> 1:48:01.800 that can actually be done to stop this, Like, I know, 1:48:01.960 --> 1:48:04.760 we have all these structures in place to try to 1:48:04.800 --> 1:48:07.200 stop the spread of invasive species, but like once they're 1:48:07.240 --> 1:48:09.559 in there, it kind of seems like usually we're fucked. 1:48:10.200 --> 1:48:13.800 Yeah ye that okay, Yeah, once you get past, like 1:48:14.640 --> 1:48:17.080 there's what's called the invasive species establishment curve, so it's 1:48:17.120 --> 1:48:19.519 an escar, and once you get like right, like once 1:48:19.600 --> 1:48:21.400 it starts taking up, it's like, oh, well, we're done here, 1:48:21.880 --> 1:48:25.160 so let's let's start thinking about the future. And as 1:48:25.200 --> 1:48:27.639 you lose more species, like what do we do here? 1:48:27.880 --> 1:48:29.040 Or if you're like you know, in the case of 1:48:29.080 --> 1:48:30.920 the case of actions like this ash is going in 1:48:31.000 --> 1:48:33.120 a swamp, I have nothing else that's going to grow here. 1:48:33.600 --> 1:48:36.960 So now I just have an open wetland, like I 1:48:37.040 --> 1:48:40.280 can grow any native trees here were done. So the 1:48:40.320 --> 1:48:42.960 biggest thing is preventioned like don't don't bring invasive species 1:48:42.960 --> 1:48:45.920 in or non native species in. I was talking to 1:48:46.000 --> 1:48:48.920 a lady a couple of weeks ago, and she hasn't 1:48:49.000 --> 1:48:52.120 rolled or not. She has hemlock William Deljion a property, 1:48:52.479 --> 1:48:54.960 and she brought in a bio control, or she assumed 1:48:55.000 --> 1:48:57.479 was a bio control from the Japan. It's a beetle, 1:48:57.960 --> 1:49:01.439 and yeah, in this case it was one that had 1:49:01.479 --> 1:49:03.360 been tested and failed because it doesn't make it through 1:49:03.400 --> 1:49:05.240 the winter. But you know, stuff like that's like just 1:49:05.439 --> 1:49:07.720 just don't do that. You know, I areciate the thought there, 1:49:07.760 --> 1:49:10.800 but don't with some of these species we have, you know, 1:49:11.400 --> 1:49:13.640 you know, like hew luckily adult, we have pesticides that 1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:15.679 worked really well and that you apply the order the tree, 1:49:15.760 --> 1:49:17.479 and so it's like, all right, I treated this tree. 1:49:17.600 --> 1:49:20.120 This tree is good for seven years. Some of them, 1:49:20.200 --> 1:49:22.360 like Emerald, last boar, you're done. There's just nothing you 1:49:22.439 --> 1:49:27.360 can do. So yeah, it's a prevention, prevention and then 1:49:27.360 --> 1:49:30.360 then you can quarantine. But then you know, it's like 1:49:30.720 --> 1:49:32.439 where this county is done, So we're gonna just try 1:49:32.439 --> 1:49:35.920 to make sure that only this county dies. Jeez, you 1:49:36.040 --> 1:49:38.519 mentioned a bit earlier like thinking about the future, what 1:49:38.600 --> 1:49:40.320 does that actually look like when when we hit a 1:49:40.360 --> 1:49:42.200 situation as we have with a lot of these species, 1:49:42.240 --> 1:49:44.519 were like, all right, well this ship's we ain't we 1:49:44.640 --> 1:49:48.679 ain't stopping this. What is what like, what do people 1:49:48.720 --> 1:49:51.040 like you do next? Like what is the next kind 1:49:51.120 --> 1:49:53.599 of step for the forests or is it just sort 1:49:53.640 --> 1:49:56.320 of a smoke them all? You got them kind of thing. Uh, 1:49:56.640 --> 1:49:58.280 sometimes it's smoke the while you got them. So like 1:49:58.360 --> 1:50:00.880 beach park diseases going through just roasting beach in the 1:50:00.920 --> 1:50:03.680 East Coast, it's going it's going to the Midwest and 1:50:03.800 --> 1:50:05.800 so there it's kind of like, well, you know, if 1:50:05.840 --> 1:50:07.559 it's in there and your beach or diet, take them 1:50:07.560 --> 1:50:11.200 out and if they're not, don't. There's it's nine fata, 1:50:11.280 --> 1:50:13.840 but there's one percent that can make it. So you know, 1:50:14.160 --> 1:50:16.840 like maybe we find that one percent and last words, 1:50:16.920 --> 1:50:19.160 nine percent fatal. But I've seen, you know, in the 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:20.840 past couple of years, I've seen two that made it. 1:50:20.960 --> 1:50:23.759 So like if we don't cut them all, maybe someone survive. 1:50:24.360 --> 1:50:27.519 Theoretically we could then like clone or breed or whatever 1:50:27.640 --> 1:50:30.960 the trees that live and and a few generations have 1:50:31.160 --> 1:50:35.160 more of them. Um, yeah, if other ship doesn't happen. Yeah, 1:50:35.439 --> 1:50:36.840 the chestnup project has been going on for the last 1:50:36.920 --> 1:50:39.200 hundred years, and it looks like I'll take about forty more. 1:50:39.360 --> 1:50:41.519 It's that's a controversial opinion. Some people say it's a 1:50:41.680 --> 1:50:46.040 bastet forty but you know years Oh, the chestnup Foundation 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:49.360 really it's a really neat thing. So there were some 1:50:49.600 --> 1:50:52.000 chestnuts that were found resistant in some plant outside the 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:54.479 range of chestnut blite, and so the ideas where they 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:58.080 slowly started back breeding. So they crossed in Chinese chestnut, 1:50:58.160 --> 1:51:00.720 which is resistant to the blight, which is native to 1:51:00.840 --> 1:51:03.920 China and East Asia, and so they crossed them in 1:51:04.080 --> 1:51:06.920 with the remaining chestnut with the hopes of you know, 1:51:07.080 --> 1:51:10.440 kind of eventually breeding out the Chinese but just maintaining 1:51:11.200 --> 1:51:14.320 the American chestnut and just getting that gene in there. 1:51:14.560 --> 1:51:16.439 And so they started that back in like the thirties 1:51:16.479 --> 1:51:19.960 and forties when they realized what was happening. Well, you know, 1:51:20.120 --> 1:51:25.679 today is two and we are still without American chestnut 1:51:25.760 --> 1:51:29.000 the forest. There are some backbread versions that are more resistant, 1:51:29.760 --> 1:51:32.120 but they will still get in affected. I've been to 1:51:32.160 --> 1:51:35.080 a couple of chestnut nurseries where they're doing experiments and 1:51:35.160 --> 1:51:37.000 it's it's sad because they'll they'll get up and then 1:51:37.000 --> 1:51:39.200 they'll die. They'll get up and they'll die, and it's like, oh, 1:51:39.280 --> 1:51:41.160 there's two. There are two over there in the corner 1:51:41.200 --> 1:51:43.880 that made it, and those get you onto the next one. 1:51:43.960 --> 1:51:47.360 But there is some work out of New York, Suny 1:51:47.479 --> 1:51:51.040 in New York where they altered a chestnut and they 1:51:51.200 --> 1:51:54.360 put in um. They just they just changed the genes. 1:51:54.400 --> 1:51:58.479 So the version of the genus makes chestnut play resistant 1:51:59.160 --> 1:52:01.320 is in that and that's getting approved by the E 1:52:01.479 --> 1:52:03.760 p A, F d A and U S d A. 1:52:04.600 --> 1:52:07.679 Hopefully that gets approved. If that gets approved, we get real, 1:52:07.800 --> 1:52:11.559 We get real further along because the resistant trees are 1:52:11.640 --> 1:52:14.519 not the same as the American just the resistant trees 1:52:14.520 --> 1:52:17.400 are more they're shorter and more shrubby, and they don't 1:52:17.400 --> 1:52:20.920 fulfill the overstory and cannot be rolled. Chestnut used to 1:52:21.000 --> 1:52:25.680 playing um. That's that's best case scenario. Worst case scenarios, 1:52:25.720 --> 1:52:30.120 you're like um butternut, which was driven to functional extinction 1:52:30.120 --> 1:52:32.360 at the same time, and we're just nowhere on that produce, 1:52:32.439 --> 1:52:35.360 working on some stuff, but it's nowhere. They're not in 1:52:35.439 --> 1:52:41.160 the woods now. How how much of like because I 1:52:41.600 --> 1:52:44.080 tend to roll my eyes pretty hard when we're talking 1:52:44.120 --> 1:52:46.040 in particular climate change and people are like, well, I 1:52:46.080 --> 1:52:48.800 think that science is going to save our asses from 1:52:48.800 --> 1:52:51.200 this one. We're gonna we're gonna develop some like miraculous 1:52:51.280 --> 1:52:53.439 carbon capture method and like at the last minute, we'll 1:52:53.479 --> 1:52:55.960 we'll we'll be able to reverse everything and it'll be fine. 1:52:56.439 --> 1:52:58.000 I tend to roll my eyes at that. But this, 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:00.800 and maybe I'm not obvious, I don't understand this that 1:53:00.880 --> 1:53:02.720 nearly the level you do. Is this kind of a 1:53:02.800 --> 1:53:04.640 thing where if there's hope for a lot of these 1:53:04.680 --> 1:53:06.600 species and a lot of these biomas, it's going to 1:53:06.680 --> 1:53:08.559 be and stuff like we figure out how to hack 1:53:08.640 --> 1:53:11.600 these trees to keep them alive, and and like, is 1:53:11.720 --> 1:53:14.600 that really kind of where we are? I know some 1:53:14.760 --> 1:53:18.200 very good tree genesis and tree breeders, but I don't 1:53:18.280 --> 1:53:21.519 think that they have the capabilities of, you know, coming 1:53:21.600 --> 1:53:23.280 up with trees that are resistant to all of the 1:53:23.520 --> 1:53:26.320 various fungi and bugs that are out there. And even 1:53:26.400 --> 1:53:28.200 if they do, it's you know, you have to get 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:29.840 them out into the woods. You have to plant. We 1:53:29.960 --> 1:53:33.000 have million acres of forest. You've got to get them 1:53:33.000 --> 1:53:34.759 out into the woods. You have to have the nurseries 1:53:34.800 --> 1:53:36.640 to get them out. There's you know, even if you 1:53:36.720 --> 1:53:39.120 were able to create trees that resistant to all of 1:53:39.120 --> 1:53:42.400 these pests, it would be impossible. So no, the only 1:53:42.840 --> 1:53:46.240 the only answer is, uh, don't don't do climate change. 1:53:46.400 --> 1:53:49.920 And to the carbon captured perspective, the only machine that's 1:53:49.960 --> 1:53:51.920 going to capture of the amount of carbon. We need 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:55.840 our trees. I do. I do forest carbon stuff, which 1:53:55.920 --> 1:53:58.439 is a whole different episode. I want to. I mean, 1:53:58.479 --> 1:54:01.040 I'm there. I'm extremely interested in that because obviously, like 1:54:01.200 --> 1:54:03.800 we've we've been supported by a couple of companies who 1:54:03.880 --> 1:54:05.160 like one of the things they do to try to 1:54:05.200 --> 1:54:07.679 be nice is they'll they'll plant trees and stuff, which 1:54:07.720 --> 1:54:11.080 is not useless. But also a lot of people think 1:54:11.200 --> 1:54:13.880 that that's what rebuilding a forest is, and like, no, 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:16.360 forests are a huge part of the problem with why 1:54:16.400 --> 1:54:18.400 the West is so flammable. As we chopped down all 1:54:18.439 --> 1:54:21.720 these trees and we grew back just the trees um 1:54:21.880 --> 1:54:23.920 to chop them down again, and that turns out to 1:54:24.000 --> 1:54:26.600 not be resilient at all to anything, because trees do 1:54:26.720 --> 1:54:29.639 not live on their own ever. Yeah, that's why it's 1:54:29.640 --> 1:54:34.360 a forest. It's not just right, yeah, no, it's yeah, 1:54:35.080 --> 1:54:39.800 that's that's a planting. There's not the infrastructure to plant 1:54:39.840 --> 1:54:42.400 our way of climate change. There's not the land. It's 1:54:42.480 --> 1:54:46.080 just impossible. And so even even if even if they're 1:54:46.080 --> 1:54:48.560 worthy infrastructure in the lane, that we don't have the time, 1:54:49.240 --> 1:54:51.520 because you know, trees take time to grow, they work 1:54:51.560 --> 1:54:55.480 at a different time scale than humans. Do even your 1:54:55.600 --> 1:54:59.400 your shortest lived trees sixty years. Yeah, and it is 1:54:59.480 --> 1:55:01.440 one of those things where I mean, we we have 1:55:01.560 --> 1:55:03.440 this is what we taught. We kind of started this 1:55:03.600 --> 1:55:06.000 new season which is forever with which is that like 1:55:06.600 --> 1:55:08.960 there's no there's nothing we can do that will stop 1:55:09.080 --> 1:55:12.000 us from continuing to face worse and worse because because 1:55:12.240 --> 1:55:14.480 like consequences of climate change, because the carbon has already 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:16.600 been admitted, right, you can't just pull it out. Warming 1:55:16.720 --> 1:55:19.800 is even if we were to like make very revolutionary 1:55:19.920 --> 1:55:22.840 changes tomorrow, there's still some degree to which it's going 1:55:22.960 --> 1:55:25.600 to get worse. Um. But when it comes to like 1:55:25.880 --> 1:55:29.360 within your field, what like carbon capture using trees and stuff, 1:55:29.360 --> 1:55:31.040 can you talk to us about like what that actually 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:33.640 looks like as opposed to sort of the will plant 1:55:33.680 --> 1:55:36.880 a tree for every dollar you spend kind of thing. Um? 1:55:37.240 --> 1:55:39.640 So yeah, I actually I actually can. It's I do 1:55:39.760 --> 1:55:45.720 a lot of my work about forest carbon stuff. So yeah, Basically, 1:55:46.200 --> 1:55:50.160 the idea is to make sure you have the best 1:55:50.240 --> 1:55:52.320 way to get carbon c equestration of the force is 1:55:52.400 --> 1:55:56.040 to have a healthy, functioning forest. And that's you know, 1:55:56.280 --> 1:55:58.400 kind of where these pests and climate change are interfering 1:55:58.440 --> 1:56:00.800 with that and so you know, to maintain a healthy 1:56:00.840 --> 1:56:02.720 functioning force in the East Coast. You know, some of 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:04.240 these you need to have fire, some of them not. 1:56:04.520 --> 1:56:06.520 Some of them are too wet to burn. Uh. And 1:56:06.600 --> 1:56:08.680 then you know, harvesting needs to take place in some 1:56:08.760 --> 1:56:10.960 of these. Some of these don't need to be harvested. Again, 1:56:10.960 --> 1:56:13.440 we're talking, you know, millions of acres of you for 1:56:13.600 --> 1:56:17.080 us here, so we're gonna be incredibly broad and we've 1:56:17.080 --> 1:56:19.920 got to keep invasives out. You need to keep force 1:56:20.040 --> 1:56:22.880 pest to a minimum, and then make sure that you're 1:56:22.880 --> 1:56:25.360 managing the forest, you know, as best as it can 1:56:25.400 --> 1:56:28.480 be managed. And I say managed, this is not something new. 1:56:28.720 --> 1:56:30.680 Humans have been on the East Coast since you know, 1:56:30.800 --> 1:56:32.680 it depends on the artifacts you want to look at 1:56:32.760 --> 1:56:35.720 and what archaeologists you want to trust. But like five 1:56:35.840 --> 1:56:39.040 to twenty thousand years ago, and the last glaciers left 1:56:39.040 --> 1:56:41.680 the East Coast eighteen thousand years ago, so we had 1:56:41.760 --> 1:56:45.400 people here before the glaciers were gone. So these forests 1:56:45.400 --> 1:56:48.000 have never not had humans hands on them and never 1:56:48.120 --> 1:56:52.560 not been touched and manage by humans. Um, And you know, 1:56:52.720 --> 1:56:54.320 we gotta make sure we're doing the best we can. 1:56:54.600 --> 1:56:56.520 You know, some of That means that we're managing Force 1:56:56.640 --> 1:56:58.440 with what's best for you know, that means managing for 1:56:58.560 --> 1:57:00.600 us for what's best with the worse in mind, not 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:02.760 with best, what's best for the end of the quarter, 1:57:03.120 --> 1:57:06.040 what's best for your bank account. That's hard to do 1:57:06.920 --> 1:57:09.760 because Force are getting more and more expensive to manage 1:57:09.840 --> 1:57:11.360 and to you know, manage just anybody here in the 1:57:11.400 --> 1:57:13.280 East Coast. We gotta do a lot of fencing. We 1:57:13.360 --> 1:57:15.480 gotta keep deer out of force because their populations are 1:57:15.560 --> 1:57:18.520 so high, it's just ridiculously high, and they've never got 1:57:18.560 --> 1:57:20.720 to come back down. You know, we have to spray 1:57:20.800 --> 1:57:23.880 invasive species, we have to pull invasive species. You've gotta 1:57:23.920 --> 1:57:25.920 go through and you've gotta make sure, you know, you're 1:57:26.280 --> 1:57:28.080 you're preventing all these kinds of stuff. And so it 1:57:28.120 --> 1:57:29.960 can take you know, you can if you do a 1:57:30.000 --> 1:57:32.720 good shelter, would you can like make four th dollars 1:57:32.760 --> 1:57:34.040 out of it, and then you could put all that 1:57:34.120 --> 1:57:36.520 money back into growing your next generation of force. So 1:57:36.760 --> 1:57:39.040 Force she is really going from a profit making venture 1:57:39.080 --> 1:57:41.320 on a lot of cases to like you're barely making 1:57:41.360 --> 1:57:45.120 money or you're you're like breaking even or losing money. 1:57:45.160 --> 1:57:47.760 It's it's no longer you know, if you really want 1:57:47.800 --> 1:57:49.520 to do it, great, You're not always making money, which 1:57:49.560 --> 1:57:52.640 is hard for people to get their head around. I mean, 1:57:52.680 --> 1:57:54.480 it's the kind of thing that in a reasonable world, 1:57:55.040 --> 1:57:57.800 huge amounts of money would be adverted to from other things, 1:57:57.920 --> 1:58:01.240 like I don't know, thirty five, Um, I feel like 1:58:01.320 --> 1:58:03.400 you guys could do a lot with one f thirty 1:58:03.440 --> 1:58:06.040 five worth of cash. I feel like that would solve 1:58:06.040 --> 1:58:07.960 almost all of our problems. Yeah, because the problems that 1:58:08.000 --> 1:58:10.320 you see in force we don't cost a lot to fix, 1:58:10.400 --> 1:58:12.640 but it it costs a lot for a forest owner, 1:58:12.720 --> 1:58:15.760 be that you know, an agency or person, it costs 1:58:15.760 --> 1:58:18.600 a lot. Yeah. It's like all of the issues around 1:58:18.640 --> 1:58:22.120 climate change kind of all circle around, like growth based 1:58:22.240 --> 1:58:26.240 economics and a lot of the like nothing has a 1:58:26.280 --> 1:58:29.600 shared cause, but they all have this similar aspect to 1:58:29.720 --> 1:58:32.520 them where yeah, every every part of them gets worse 1:58:32.840 --> 1:58:36.080 by the extreme focus on economic growth at all costs 1:58:36.720 --> 1:58:40.560 and that suffers that that that makes everything and everyone suffer. So, 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:42.360 you know, it would be nice if since we have 1:58:42.440 --> 1:58:44.480 a government, it would be nice if they do, you know, 1:58:44.760 --> 1:58:48.880 give more funding towards uh, stuff like this type of 1:58:48.920 --> 1:58:51.400 force management, which I know they do some, but you know, 1:58:51.680 --> 1:58:53.280 a fraction of it compared to what they give to 1:58:53.360 --> 1:58:57.320 like the Pentagon or you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I 1:58:57.360 --> 1:59:00.400 mean even big you know forceries technically agricultor but even 1:59:00.520 --> 1:59:03.680 like you know, like corn and like grow agriculture, it's 1:59:03.680 --> 1:59:07.000 a lot more. Yeah, they have they corners massive subsidies 1:59:07.240 --> 1:59:11.440 compared to compared to everything else. Yeah, like the NRCS, 1:59:11.520 --> 1:59:14.120 the Natural Resources Conservation Service, they do a lot with 1:59:14.560 --> 1:59:18.360 you know, farm agriculture, and you know, they it's very 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:20.800 difficult for forest ollers to get that kind of money 1:59:20.880 --> 1:59:23.280 into forest. If we could get you know, that money, 1:59:23.400 --> 1:59:26.560 it would be a game changer. But we're not there. Uh, 1:59:26.800 --> 1:59:30.080 there is some change being made in the administration. But yeah, 1:59:30.120 --> 1:59:34.120 that's like stuff and that doesn't help, doesn't help today. 1:59:34.360 --> 1:59:39.840 It doesn't still unpassed today. Yeah, you can't unkill trees. Yeah, 1:59:40.800 --> 1:59:44.720 I guess is there anything that you're optimistic about within 1:59:44.840 --> 1:59:47.360 your field right now? Like if you I think that 1:59:47.400 --> 1:59:51.320 would be handy both in terms of like is there 1:59:51.360 --> 1:59:55.720 any sort of is there a light at the end 1:59:55.760 --> 1:59:59.320 of the tunnel um, Because I'll admit, like, when I 1:59:59.440 --> 2:00:03.720 think about not having the forests. That's pretty much the 2:00:03.760 --> 2:00:06.520 most blackpilling thing I can imagine, like for myself, Like, 2:00:06.640 --> 2:00:09.760 that's the that's the thing that I have trouble coping 2:00:09.800 --> 2:00:12.440 with emotionally more than anything else. There's lots of horrible 2:00:12.520 --> 2:00:15.960 things about what's coming, but that's the one that like 2:00:16.880 --> 2:00:19.640 really scares me the most. Yeah, I don't think we're 2:00:19.680 --> 2:00:22.680 gonna lose forests as a thing. They're just where to become. 2:00:23.400 --> 2:00:26.480 You know, if without things being done, they will become less. 2:00:26.680 --> 2:00:28.400 They're gonna be fewer of them, and they're gonna become 2:00:28.480 --> 2:00:31.760 much less diverse and functioning. You know. For a lot 2:00:31.840 --> 2:00:34.680 of these you know, invasive species, be they plants, you know, 2:00:35.120 --> 2:00:36.800 especially in basive plants, we have a lot of We 2:00:36.920 --> 2:00:39.000 know how to control them. I was just writing a 2:00:39.080 --> 2:00:42.200 thing about controlling wavy basket grass. Wavy leaf basket grass. 2:00:42.520 --> 2:00:45.040 It's a new invasive species to my area. It's highly 2:00:45.120 --> 2:00:47.440 controllable and we know how to do it. It's just 2:00:47.480 --> 2:00:50.200 again a question of people, you know, getting out there 2:00:50.760 --> 2:00:52.520 and money to do it. You know, if we have 2:00:52.680 --> 2:00:55.000 the people of the money, we can solve that problem. 2:00:55.040 --> 2:00:56.920 Oh also we stop you know bringing that in the 2:00:57.080 --> 2:01:00.360 bat even better, we you know actually took you know, 2:01:00.440 --> 2:01:03.440 i PM is hard, not i PM, but quarantine and 2:01:03.520 --> 2:01:06.120 pest management seriously, and you know, people like stopped throwing 2:01:06.640 --> 2:01:09.040 you know they look like plant out into the park 2:01:09.240 --> 2:01:10.640 just because like I don't want to kill it, Like 2:01:10.800 --> 2:01:13.480 let's let it be free. Don't do that goldfish, don't 2:01:13.520 --> 2:01:16.000 don't throw them in the lake. That's why you have 2:01:16.120 --> 2:01:18.880 huge goldfish coming out of Lake Florida. Don't. Don't just 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:21.160 cut pets loose and stuff like that. And if we 2:01:21.200 --> 2:01:22.840 can get a lot of that under control, will be 2:01:22.880 --> 2:01:24.760 in a lot better place. Again, I don't think they 2:01:24.960 --> 2:01:28.000 forced to disappearing in the future unmanaged. I think they 2:01:28.120 --> 2:01:31.080 just become fewer and less diverse and less function and 2:01:31.120 --> 2:01:33.839 then you lose spaces species based on them, like birds, 2:01:34.360 --> 2:01:37.640 you know, wildlife, all that kind of stuff. And also 2:01:37.680 --> 2:01:40.200 I mean one of the things that also they have 2:01:40.320 --> 2:01:43.240 to become less accessible, both because there will be less 2:01:43.280 --> 2:01:46.040 of the man um as things get more fragile, Like 2:01:46.160 --> 2:01:48.560 how else do you keep some of these invasive species 2:01:48.600 --> 2:01:50.960 out but keeping people out, which is I think a 2:01:51.080 --> 2:01:54.760 bad move for a lot of reasons. But I don't know. 2:01:55.360 --> 2:01:59.200 I also don't know, like is it possible to have 2:01:59.640 --> 2:02:02.840 a global society where there is not just trade but 2:02:02.920 --> 2:02:05.080 the movement of people on a wide scale, and not 2:02:05.400 --> 2:02:09.720 have this kind of ship crossing. Right. Like, that's when 2:02:09.720 --> 2:02:12.400 I think about as as someone who's more or less 2:02:12.400 --> 2:02:15.040 an anarchist. When I think about the only things that 2:02:15.200 --> 2:02:18.400 a border should exist to do, it's it's keep stuff 2:02:18.480 --> 2:02:19.920 like that out. But I just I don't know how 2:02:20.120 --> 2:02:22.280 possible that is, Like a lot of this stuff is. 2:02:23.080 --> 2:02:25.360 I mean, is this the kind of thing that's just 2:02:25.440 --> 2:02:28.600 spread by carelessness? Because it kind of seems like it 2:02:28.680 --> 2:02:30.840 can be spread to by people who think they're taking 2:02:30.920 --> 2:02:34.520 care Yeah, and both is the answer. There's some very 2:02:34.560 --> 2:02:38.280 good research out there about the relativeness between global trade 2:02:38.680 --> 2:02:41.400 and you know, invasive species. But that also you look 2:02:41.440 --> 2:02:44.680 at like colonialism and colonial societies. There are these things 2:02:44.800 --> 2:02:48.560 called introductory societies who long get the name wrong, but 2:02:48.720 --> 2:02:50.960 basically there are clubs. It's like, all right, I would 2:02:50.960 --> 2:02:52.640 like clubs of people like I would like to see 2:02:53.280 --> 2:02:55.320 this new place that I live in, like the old place. 2:02:55.400 --> 2:02:57.920 Like the European starling was introduced in New York because 2:02:58.080 --> 2:03:00.200 you know, one guy, I wanted to see all the 2:03:00.280 --> 2:03:04.440 birds of Shakespeare in Christ. Oh, I get even better 2:03:04.520 --> 2:03:08.160 for one for you. The moth formerly known as gypsy 2:03:08.200 --> 2:03:10.040 moth as seem as I'm gonna say that word um 2:03:10.440 --> 2:03:12.960 is now found in America because of this one guy. 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:15.040 I'll put the name of the chat for you so 2:03:15.120 --> 2:03:16.200 you can say it, because I know how much you 2:03:16.280 --> 2:03:26.200 love saying French names. This most here comes the wave 2:03:26.280 --> 2:03:31.760 of comb it's a better anti French racism. Oh yeah, 2:03:32.240 --> 2:03:36.920 oh I know it doesn't matter. We still get well, 2:03:37.400 --> 2:03:41.480 nobody does about my Italian accent. It's just the French. 2:03:41.680 --> 2:03:44.440 It's once again the Italians deserve it as well. Yeah, 2:03:45.600 --> 2:03:48.960 but they tell us about at end. Yeah. So so 2:03:49.120 --> 2:03:52.200 this guy, he was a French scientist who who left France. 2:03:52.240 --> 2:03:53.640 He came to the US for a little while. He 2:03:53.840 --> 2:03:58.640 got Massachusetts. He was also also an amateur entomologist, and 2:03:58.760 --> 2:04:00.600 he was like, oh, you know what I think American 2:04:00.680 --> 2:04:02.600 needs is I think they need a silk industry. Now 2:04:02.640 --> 2:04:05.360 they have a negative silk moth. It doesn't produce good silk, 2:04:05.440 --> 2:04:09.640 it doesn't breed fast. So he brought in the la matric. 2:04:09.840 --> 2:04:11.640 I gotta do the scientific name because we changed the 2:04:11.720 --> 2:04:13.440 name on it because the common name is a slur. 2:04:13.560 --> 2:04:17.920 So we're not doing so la Matria disparo. So he 2:04:18.040 --> 2:04:20.880 brought this this moth in from Europe. Uh, and he 2:04:21.200 --> 2:04:23.120 started trying to breathe these two moths, which are not 2:04:23.240 --> 2:04:26.560 related at all. It didn't work, obviously, and then he 2:04:26.720 --> 2:04:28.280 just kind of, you know, he went he went off 2:04:28.320 --> 2:04:29.920 to be an astronomer, and he just let these moths 2:04:29.960 --> 2:04:32.560 go in his backyard and he didn't tell anyone they 2:04:32.600 --> 2:04:34.280 were there. And then all of a sudden these things 2:04:34.440 --> 2:04:38.080 escaped and now they're killing trees, you know, across the 2:04:38.160 --> 2:04:41.040 eastern United States, and they're in Washington, Oregon. I think 2:04:41.080 --> 2:04:45.520 they're in DC a little bit too. So yeah, that's 2:04:45.560 --> 2:04:48.160 that's that's that's such a good parable, like a parallel 2:04:48.240 --> 2:04:51.200 to the invasive species that is French people. That really 2:04:51.240 --> 2:04:55.280 does just tie up all all aspects of that amazing. 2:04:56.480 --> 2:04:58.440 It makes me think a lot everything you're saying about 2:04:58.480 --> 2:05:01.520 kut Zoo, which which is in the I've heard some 2:05:01.640 --> 2:05:03.560 people say they're getting a handle on it. I don't 2:05:03.600 --> 2:05:06.160 know how to evaluate that at the moment, but when 2:05:06.200 --> 2:05:08.040 I was last living down there, it was just like 2:05:08.240 --> 2:05:13.240 devouring the entire southeast. Yeah, you can handle it again, 2:05:13.240 --> 2:05:15.400 if you want to spray it, you can. You can 2:05:15.440 --> 2:05:17.240 get what's called it chew groove. So a bunch of goats, 2:05:17.880 --> 2:05:19.520 you can get a handle on it. But again that's 2:05:19.640 --> 2:05:21.800 money and effort. So it's just a question. So you 2:05:21.840 --> 2:05:25.000 do get delicious, delicious goat made? Oh my gosh, I 2:05:25.080 --> 2:05:27.560 tell you what. The people who do goat invasive management 2:05:27.600 --> 2:05:30.480 they haven't made. Would they rent goats out to people? 2:05:30.560 --> 2:05:33.640 They get paid for the goats and they also get 2:05:33.680 --> 2:05:35.920 their goats fence? Would they slaughter them? They even pay that? 2:05:36.240 --> 2:05:38.600 You know, that's a good business model as someone with 2:05:38.720 --> 2:05:44.240 a couple of goats. That does sound like the dream. Yeah. God, 2:05:45.240 --> 2:05:47.200 they don't work on all the invasive species I do. 2:05:47.920 --> 2:05:50.080 There are folks and they probably don't eat those beetles. 2:05:50.200 --> 2:05:52.840 Huh no. No. They also don't like plants with thorns 2:05:52.840 --> 2:05:56.360 on them either, and it's very few goats can handle 2:05:56.400 --> 2:06:00.280 an entire French person either. So yeah, we can't can't 2:06:00.280 --> 2:06:02.280 trust the goats to solve all these problems for us. 2:06:02.320 --> 2:06:05.680 It is nice that they're helping. Um, I don't know, 2:06:05.840 --> 2:06:11.040 so I try to. Are there things either in terms 2:06:11.080 --> 2:06:13.440 of like it acts people can take, or probably more 2:06:13.560 --> 2:06:16.800 more realistically, organizations people could support that you think are 2:06:16.840 --> 2:06:21.760 actually helping try to stop as much of the woods 2:06:21.800 --> 2:06:24.960 from going bad as fast or reverse the some of 2:06:25.000 --> 2:06:26.760 the stuff we've been talking about today, like how can 2:06:26.960 --> 2:06:29.800 we try to have some some room for people to 2:06:30.320 --> 2:06:32.760 do something, if if there is anything people can do 2:06:32.920 --> 2:06:35.400 other than check your fucking shoes for beetles when you 2:06:35.440 --> 2:06:39.240 come back from wherever, burn all of your clothing anytime 2:06:39.320 --> 2:06:42.480 you leave the state. Okay, that's that's a good start. 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:44.400 That's a really good start. Not even to say sometimes 2:06:44.480 --> 2:06:47.640 it's the county to stop. When you go on a 2:06:47.720 --> 2:06:49.960 road trip, you stop your car at the county line 2:06:50.000 --> 2:06:52.720 and you roll it off of a cliff with tanner 2:06:52.800 --> 2:06:55.280 righte and just let it burn. But don't don't push 2:06:55.320 --> 2:06:56.920 out of the woods. We've seen that. How not into 2:06:56.920 --> 2:07:01.320 the woods, No, into the ocean where eadings fine, Yeah, 2:07:01.520 --> 2:07:04.560 they say that's what they say about the ocean. Great. 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:07.400 I tell people I work between the farm field and 2:07:07.440 --> 2:07:09.440 the stream. I don't do stream or water stuff because 2:07:09.440 --> 2:07:11.280 it's chemistry in there, so I don't know what happens 2:07:11.320 --> 2:07:14.480 over there. That's fine. I assume everything is great there. 2:07:14.800 --> 2:07:19.080 It does seem to be going fine. Yah Um. I 2:07:19.240 --> 2:07:20.640 think the best thing that you could do is in 2:07:20.720 --> 2:07:23.920 individuals is don't cut random stuff loose. Learn the plants 2:07:23.960 --> 2:07:27.320 of your area. Yeah, learn what's around you and what 2:07:27.440 --> 2:07:29.560 should be there. And like when you see something that 2:07:29.600 --> 2:07:32.600 shouldn't be there and you know it's invasive, remove it 2:07:32.720 --> 2:07:36.720 were legally possible, obviously, don't go like someone's like arboretum 2:07:36.760 --> 2:07:39.000 and it's like slight pulling plants out. It'd be real bad, 2:07:39.960 --> 2:07:46.000 burned down small farms wherever you find. Yeah, oh man, 2:07:46.440 --> 2:07:48.760 the egg people will not be happy about that. But yeah, 2:07:48.840 --> 2:07:52.360 I mean, I'm not gonna say anything. Um So I think, 2:07:52.400 --> 2:07:55.480 you know, learned plants trees is neat um. And then 2:07:55.640 --> 2:07:58.720 if you um, you know, think of if you're thinking about, like, 2:07:58.960 --> 2:08:01.000 you know, how can you help manage force? You know, 2:08:01.040 --> 2:08:03.720 if you lots of people either own forests or people 2:08:03.720 --> 2:08:06.640 who owned force, and you know, encourage them to get 2:08:06.680 --> 2:08:08.800 a forest management plan or land management plan and get that. 2:08:09.120 --> 2:08:11.240 And then also if you've got a lawn, rip your 2:08:11.320 --> 2:08:15.560 lawn out again where possible and use native plants. I do. 2:08:15.800 --> 2:08:18.360 I do some you know some lawn change stuff. And 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:20.400 it's just frustrating the amount of lawns out there. It's like, 2:08:20.600 --> 2:08:21.800 you know, one of these people one of these reasons 2:08:21.840 --> 2:08:24.240 we're losing so many you know, birds, and we have 2:08:24.360 --> 2:08:27.360 fewer birds and bird species because like they can't eat grass. 2:08:27.960 --> 2:08:30.720 You see, these things eat fruits and insects and seeds 2:08:31.080 --> 2:08:34.120 which you don't get in grass. So you know, if 2:08:34.160 --> 2:08:37.360 you don't own a forest, that's fine, and I'm I'm 2:08:37.400 --> 2:08:38.920 a huge advocate of that. I try to be on 2:08:38.960 --> 2:08:40.680 the show and people, again, we always get this thing 2:08:40.720 --> 2:08:42.440 where there are people who will critique when we talk 2:08:42.480 --> 2:08:45.280 about some of these small scale solutions' is like, oh, 2:08:45.400 --> 2:08:49.040 you know, turning your turning your lawn into a permac 2:08:49.280 --> 2:08:51.960 culture garden with local species isn't going to like produce 2:08:52.080 --> 2:08:54.040 enough food to feed your families. Like, no, it's not 2:08:54.120 --> 2:08:57.240 about that. If you could get a couple of thousand 2:08:57.280 --> 2:08:59.560 people to do it, and they convince another couple and 2:08:59.640 --> 2:09:01.320 like so on and so on and so on, then suddenly, 2:09:01.920 --> 2:09:05.360 if you're increasing significantly the amount of carbon sequestered by 2:09:05.440 --> 2:09:07.800 that lawn and you're also making a better habitat for 2:09:07.920 --> 2:09:10.880 birds and whatnot, that that scales. That is a thing 2:09:10.960 --> 2:09:13.280 that scales. If we got a significant number of people 2:09:13.320 --> 2:09:16.320 with lawns to replace them with something like we're talking 2:09:16.320 --> 2:09:19.640 about kill kill that grass, that almost certainly isn't fucking 2:09:19.720 --> 2:09:22.200 native to your area. Plant stuff that is, and and 2:09:22.520 --> 2:09:25.640 and try to reintegrate at least your lawn back into 2:09:25.680 --> 2:09:29.160 the local ecology. If you got a million Americans to 2:09:29.240 --> 2:09:34.520 do a version of that, that's not an insignificant thing. Um. Yeah. 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:37.360 And it is something that you can do in a 2:09:37.400 --> 2:09:39.880 lot of states. There's programs to support it. In my state, 2:09:39.960 --> 2:09:43.440 there's a program specifically for like changing lawns over and 2:09:43.640 --> 2:09:46.240 that program is backed up there out of money until 2:09:47.360 --> 2:09:51.320 they spent it all already. There's definitely interest there them 2:09:51.320 --> 2:09:54.120 a thirty five. Let me sell it to whoever whoever. 2:09:54.360 --> 2:09:56.560 Anyone gets it if they want it, it just goes 2:09:56.640 --> 2:09:59.080 up on Craigslist, all right, Yeah, put it on Craigslist, 2:10:00.080 --> 2:10:03.240 give it to the highest bidder. Um. The other thing 2:10:03.240 --> 2:10:05.440 you can do is go outside, like support your local 2:10:05.640 --> 2:10:08.240 land management agency. Most of these, like forest Service and 2:10:08.320 --> 2:10:12.400 park Service, they depend on money spent by users to 2:10:12.600 --> 2:10:15.640 go spend money at the forest. The only thing people 2:10:15.640 --> 2:10:18.680 can do your fucking boots first though, Oh yeah, definitely that. 2:10:18.920 --> 2:10:21.520 And don't don't bring shit in. Don't don't bring your 2:10:21.640 --> 2:10:24.400 like weird thing in, like your weird plan, because you 2:10:24.440 --> 2:10:29.960 don't want to kill it, kill your entirely seed based diet. Yeah, 2:10:30.520 --> 2:10:33.720 if you don't, If you hunt, great, that supports conservation. 2:10:34.000 --> 2:10:35.800 If you don't want to hunt, you can still buy 2:10:35.880 --> 2:10:39.040 duck stamps and these other things that support wildlife management. 2:10:39.400 --> 2:10:43.200 In the US, wildlife is funded by the users, So 2:10:43.280 --> 2:10:45.640 those people who buy guns and AMMO, you buy arch 2:10:45.680 --> 2:10:47.680 your equipment, and who buy hunting licenses. So if you 2:10:47.720 --> 2:10:49.960 want to support wildlife, the best thing you can do 2:10:50.120 --> 2:10:52.040 is buy a hunting license, even if you don't hunt. 2:10:53.680 --> 2:10:56.280 That's it's kind of counterintuitive, but it's the core of 2:10:56.360 --> 2:10:59.320 the North American model of wildlife. Yeah, yeah, that's a 2:10:59.360 --> 2:11:01.000 really good point, and it is one of the It's 2:11:01.040 --> 2:11:02.800 also one of those areas when we talk about ways 2:11:02.840 --> 2:11:07.440 in which theoretically there's room to build in roads between 2:11:08.040 --> 2:11:11.360 left and right in this country, conservation and hunting should 2:11:11.440 --> 2:11:13.440 be one right. And there are hunters on the right 2:11:13.440 --> 2:11:17.440 who were actually talking a pretty good, like reasonably about conservation, 2:11:17.520 --> 2:11:20.360 Like it is an area of shared interest. Everybody likes 2:11:21.240 --> 2:11:23.720 wild places, so just quote unquote wild We just talked 2:11:23.720 --> 2:11:25.840 about how none of them are actually wild. They've all 2:11:25.880 --> 2:11:28.480 existed with human beings for forever. But like, yeah, we like. 2:11:28.680 --> 2:11:32.560 We like the outdoors, yes, the outdoors. Yeah. Well and 2:11:32.880 --> 2:11:35.160 what you know, people have been like, so I my 2:11:35.200 --> 2:11:40.360 cross blows right over there. Crossbow, Yeah, you don't have 2:11:40.440 --> 2:11:45.320 to get a gun. I have been wanted to get 2:11:45.520 --> 2:11:48.600 crossbow pilled for a while now. Oh yeah, I wouldn't 2:11:48.600 --> 2:11:52.680 mind getting crossbow killed myself. That shoulder holster for a 2:11:52.760 --> 2:12:01.000 crossbow there we go. Oh yeah, that's great. That's yeah. No, 2:12:01.160 --> 2:12:03.520 this is not a super expensive one, but it's pretty 2:12:03.600 --> 2:12:06.640 much a rifle. Yeah, I mean ballistically at the range. 2:12:06.680 --> 2:12:10.040 Is you use them, there's not any meaningful difference really. Yeah. 2:12:10.360 --> 2:12:12.240 And if you're a person who you know doesn't like guns, 2:12:12.280 --> 2:12:15.440 it doesn't trust yourself around them. Uh, they're very safe. 2:12:16.040 --> 2:12:17.760 So yeah, get get you one of those if you want. 2:12:17.920 --> 2:12:20.280 It's a fun time cross I also like it a 2:12:20.360 --> 2:12:24.800 lot more than my, uh my guns because it doesn't 2:12:24.840 --> 2:12:28.880 yet coil. But that's enough about that. Well that's great. Um, 2:12:29.080 --> 2:12:30.800 is there anything else you wanted to get into Calvin 2:12:30.840 --> 2:12:34.560 before we kind of roll out today? Uh? You touched 2:12:34.600 --> 2:12:37.400 on forest carbon stuff. That's a whole man a bunch 2:12:37.400 --> 2:12:40.280 of stuff on that that's a whole other world. I 2:12:40.400 --> 2:12:42.560 am interested in talking more about that, but perhaps we 2:12:42.560 --> 2:12:46.320 should do have a dedicated entire thing. I mean, we 2:12:46.360 --> 2:12:48.400 should definitely dedicate an entire thing that that. It's an 2:12:48.400 --> 2:12:51.560 incredibly important subject UM and I think there's a lot 2:12:51.640 --> 2:12:54.200 to say about how different um indigenous groups have been. 2:12:54.280 --> 2:12:56.480 Like up in the Northwest in particular, we have a 2:12:56.520 --> 2:12:59.240 lot of um kind of tribal efforts at stuff like 2:12:59.320 --> 2:13:01.240 not just with with the forest, but also with like 2:13:01.280 --> 2:13:04.160 the coastline and whatnot in rebuilding certain populations along the 2:13:04.240 --> 2:13:07.200 coast in the Midwest. When I'm does a great job 2:13:07.280 --> 2:13:10.080 with forest management, I'm actually doing a webinar thing about 2:13:10.240 --> 2:13:12.120 one of our forest pestons. We're having thene come talk 2:13:12.160 --> 2:13:14.480 about their management. Well we invited them. I'm not actually 2:13:14.480 --> 2:13:15.920 sure if they're going to do it yet, but the 2:13:16.000 --> 2:13:17.800 practice we use is based on what they use it there. 2:13:17.880 --> 2:13:23.520 So yeah, it's it's really cool what various first nations do. Yeah, 2:13:23.920 --> 2:13:29.120 I just want to plug trees. Yeah, my favorite type 2:13:29.160 --> 2:13:32.320 of tree probably the redwood. Used to live in Arcade 2:13:32.360 --> 2:13:34.480 to go running in them every day. Um, I know 2:13:34.560 --> 2:13:36.360 that's kind of a cliche answer, what's your what's your 2:13:36.400 --> 2:13:39.200 favorite tree? This is one behind me here, No one 2:13:39.240 --> 2:13:41.840 can see my background it's white oak. You can't make 2:13:41.880 --> 2:13:45.440 a white oaks. So, yeah, that is an impolitant tree. 2:13:46.080 --> 2:13:47.760 Forest products are like one of the only things that 2:13:47.800 --> 2:13:51.120 supports supports forest management. So it supports forest so you 2:13:51.200 --> 2:13:54.360 don't be afraid to use, you know, sustainably managed wood 2:13:54.440 --> 2:13:59.960 and wood products finds capitalism and drink a shipload of 2:14:00.000 --> 2:14:05.600 bourbon always a good call. Really, Um? All right, well, 2:14:05.720 --> 2:14:10.840 Calvin Norman, any any less plugable to plug? Um plants? Uh? 2:14:10.880 --> 2:14:13.480 If you won't learn plants, that's great. You want to 2:14:13.560 --> 2:14:15.320 learn about what's going on your native you know your 2:14:15.360 --> 2:14:17.160 areas around you. There's lots of groups that do that. 2:14:17.600 --> 2:14:19.440 Your local extension service helps you out with a lot 2:14:19.600 --> 2:14:22.880 that most of their stuff is free. So plug that. Yeah, 2:14:22.960 --> 2:14:27.480 go outside and plug that. I don't do twitter good. Yeah, 2:14:27.680 --> 2:14:31.800 all right, well go outside, hugg a tree. Calvin Norman, 2:14:31.960 --> 2:14:34.560 thank you again so much for coming on. Um. If 2:14:34.600 --> 2:14:36.920 you want to see Calan's original thread, just type in 2:14:37.040 --> 2:14:40.760 the woods are bad, uh, and it could happen here, 2:14:40.800 --> 2:14:42.400 read it, or just go to the it could happen here, 2:14:42.440 --> 2:14:44.920 read it and scroll down a bit you'll find it. Um. 2:14:45.440 --> 2:14:49.440 That's gonna do it for us today until tomorrow. Go 2:14:49.560 --> 2:14:51.600 out into the woods. Who out into the woods, But 2:14:51.640 --> 2:15:08.880 wash your fucking boots first. It could happen. Here is 2:15:08.960 --> 2:15:12.760 the podcast. You're listening to with your ears or perhaps 2:15:12.880 --> 2:15:15.280 other parts of your body if you have, I don't know, 2:15:16.120 --> 2:15:20.760 some bizarre form of synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um, 2:15:21.120 --> 2:15:24.640 maybe you're tasting us right now. In which case, UM, 2:15:24.880 --> 2:15:28.200 I'm gonna open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my 2:15:28.320 --> 2:15:32.560 co host Garrison UM and our guest for today. Why 2:15:32.600 --> 2:15:35.200 don't you take over now, Garrison, I've done my job. Great. 2:15:35.480 --> 2:15:38.760 That sounds lovely. Yeah, Hey, Garrison, here could happen. Here 2:15:39.280 --> 2:15:42.560 is the podcast. We have a special guest today. UH 2:15:42.720 --> 2:15:47.480 journalisten researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so good 2:15:47.640 --> 2:15:50.280 to be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution the Police 2:15:50.280 --> 2:15:54.040 Insurrection Daily. Thank you, thank you, lovely to have you. UM. 2:15:54.600 --> 2:15:57.920 A lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like surbet. 2:15:58.120 --> 2:16:02.360 By the way, it's a comment. Get a lot, a lot, lot, 2:16:02.640 --> 2:16:06.080 lot a lot of those d M s. Um you surprised, 2:16:06.120 --> 2:16:10.320 not that. UM. So we're gonna be talking about something 2:16:10.400 --> 2:16:13.680 I've wanted to actually bring up myself for a while now, 2:16:14.040 --> 2:16:15.320 but I just have not put it the work in 2:16:15.640 --> 2:16:18.000 and now luckily someone else did the actual work, so 2:16:18.360 --> 2:16:20.680 we now we could just talk about it. We're talking 2:16:20.680 --> 2:16:25.880 about something called a disclosed TV UM, which is a 2:16:25.960 --> 2:16:29.080 broad range of things. It's not it's not just one thing. Uh, 2:16:29.400 --> 2:16:32.000 And I guess I'll hand it over to the person 2:16:32.040 --> 2:16:34.200 who did the actual work in terms of like how 2:16:34.360 --> 2:16:37.680 how would you describe what disclosed TV is? But but 2:16:37.879 --> 2:16:40.320 like before we get into like the journey of the 2:16:40.520 --> 2:16:44.880 platform and thing like what like what is it? Yeah, UM, 2:16:45.160 --> 2:16:48.000 let me start this off by saying, I'm already before 2:16:48.080 --> 2:16:52.560 the publication of the article been publicly threatened vaguely with 2:16:52.720 --> 2:16:57.440 legal action from Disclosed TV, so that will be largely 2:16:57.520 --> 2:17:00.280 informing what I say today. But we do have a 2:17:00.400 --> 2:17:04.520 lot of receipts. Um, you have very scary lawyers here, 2:17:04.600 --> 2:17:10.039 So I'm I'm I'm excited whatever happens, So feel free 2:17:10.080 --> 2:17:13.120 to say whatever you want to say. But UM, Disclosed 2:17:13.160 --> 2:17:17.680 TV markets itself and presents itself as a news aggregator 2:17:18.400 --> 2:17:24.280 UM operating Twitter, UM Telegram, gab get or. They have 2:17:24.360 --> 2:17:27.520 a Facebook as well as well as the main site, 2:17:27.600 --> 2:17:35.120 where they host what one could describe as articles as well, yeah, 2:17:35.520 --> 2:17:40.280 and I think Disclosed TV for our purposes, despite like 2:17:40.400 --> 2:17:44.720 they have a very large Facebook presence UM, but the 2:17:44.800 --> 2:17:48.080 way that we usually interact with them, specifically like me 2:17:48.160 --> 2:17:50.760 and Robert and then other people who are like journalists 2:17:50.840 --> 2:17:54.840 orge to antifascist researchers, usually we interact with Disclosed TV 2:17:55.040 --> 2:17:58.480 on Telegram or through Twitter um. Twitter through like it's 2:17:58.480 --> 2:18:00.240 how they like break a lot of current events in 2:18:00.360 --> 2:18:02.400 like a where like you know, a lot of like 2:18:02.440 --> 2:18:05.840 political figures talk about them is is Twitter UM, and 2:18:05.879 --> 2:18:08.160 then Telegram is where they really disseminate these out into 2:18:08.200 --> 2:18:10.560 more obscure groups. And maybe they changed their wording because 2:18:10.560 --> 2:18:12.760 they know the audience is a little bit different. And 2:18:13.920 --> 2:18:19.560 they've been a vector of information for a while. Really 2:18:19.760 --> 2:18:23.240 really with the protests, they kind of picked up a 2:18:23.280 --> 2:18:27.320 lot of there was they were everywhere in terms of 2:18:27.440 --> 2:18:31.360 like saying specific things, not doing sourcing UM and just 2:18:31.560 --> 2:18:34.920 having like basically they are a place where they kind 2:18:34.920 --> 2:18:37.520 of create what they they try to create what the 2:18:37.600 --> 2:18:41.440 news is because of how isolated they are from the 2:18:41.520 --> 2:18:44.240 sources that they actually pull info from, and they're very 2:18:44.400 --> 2:18:47.240 they're very interested in kind of crafting their own version 2:18:47.360 --> 2:18:52.560 of events UM, which appeals to people across the spectrum. Like, 2:18:52.879 --> 2:18:56.080 they don't just market towards the far right wing. Sometimes 2:18:56.160 --> 2:18:58.680 they frame things to kind of attract of a variety 2:18:58.760 --> 2:19:04.240 of people, like the under the extremist banner. Let's say. Um, So, 2:19:04.400 --> 2:19:06.720 you know, you don't just see them in far right circles. 2:19:06.920 --> 2:19:08.880 You see Disclose pop up in a lot of places 2:19:09.240 --> 2:19:12.560 because of the way they framed news and breaking events. UM. 2:19:13.400 --> 2:19:15.200 But they didn't always start out like this. This isn't 2:19:15.240 --> 2:19:17.120 what they always were. They weren't always this kind of 2:19:17.160 --> 2:19:21.840 content aggregator that creates their version of news. UM and 2:19:22.600 --> 2:19:26.360 Thomas did more research into what they were before, which 2:19:26.640 --> 2:19:30.199 I actually had not done that research yet. Um. So yeah, 2:19:30.520 --> 2:19:33.360 let's uh, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah. 2:19:33.400 --> 2:19:35.200 So I'm gonna start off with talking about how I 2:19:35.360 --> 2:19:39.960 first heard about disclose. Um. So I was living in 2:19:40.040 --> 2:19:43.280 Germany when the pandemic hit UM and got COVID first 2:19:43.360 --> 2:19:48.720 wave in Germany, the March UM. Luckily I was totally asymptomatic. UM, 2:19:48.800 --> 2:19:51.080 but I was kind of stranded in Germany for a 2:19:51.120 --> 2:19:53.720 couple of weeks. UM and how to isolate in a 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:57.360 vacation rental uh and the Bavarian man who owned it 2:19:57.520 --> 2:20:00.240 just kept coming in talking to me, and I would 2:20:00.240 --> 2:20:03.240 tell him, Hey, it's probably not the best idea for 2:20:03.520 --> 2:20:05.280 you to be coming by and chatting with me all 2:20:05.320 --> 2:20:09.160 the time. And now he got into talking, and we're 2:20:09.200 --> 2:20:11.080 talking in German. He got we got into talking about 2:20:12.160 --> 2:20:14.760 the pandemic, what he thought about it, and he started 2:20:14.800 --> 2:20:17.160 talking about how he thought, oh, the government's making this 2:20:17.200 --> 2:20:19.680 seem way worse than it is. You know, the deep 2:20:19.720 --> 2:20:21.440 state if you know anything about that, and he and 2:20:21.560 --> 2:20:25.920 he said deep state in English. Um. And I was 2:20:26.000 --> 2:20:30.160 familiar with German far right currents at that time, Um, 2:20:30.280 --> 2:20:34.840 but I had never encountered a pilled German dude. And 2:20:35.000 --> 2:20:38.160 that's when I realized this is gonna be a fucking problem. 2:20:38.560 --> 2:20:43.040 Yeah yeah, and and it lo and behold it has 2:20:43.080 --> 2:20:46.280 continued to be a problem. So as I got back 2:20:46.320 --> 2:20:47.920 to the U S. And and the other thing when 2:20:47.959 --> 2:20:49.360 I was in Germany is the first time I tunded 2:20:49.480 --> 2:20:54.240 I encountered telegram. Um when a German I knew, said hey, 2:20:54.400 --> 2:20:56.960 I I just don't trust WhatsApp because it's on by Facebook. 2:20:57.000 --> 2:21:00.720 Why don't you download telegram? And he that was nineteen 2:21:00.800 --> 2:21:04.960 I think, um, and and it was pretty innocuous to 2:21:05.080 --> 2:21:08.000 me at the time, I didn't realize this would become 2:21:08.160 --> 2:21:14.120 a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM. I was working on 2:21:14.200 --> 2:21:18.120 my master's project, which UM you can talk about more 2:21:18.280 --> 2:21:20.640 later on, because it's kind of besides the point, UM 2:21:21.400 --> 2:21:23.080 if you don't want to hear about it, but looking 2:21:23.160 --> 2:21:26.760 at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM, using Colin Campbell's 2:21:26.800 --> 2:21:31.760 framework of the cultic MILIEUM to understand specifically how Q 2:21:31.959 --> 2:21:34.840 and on spread in Germany and how Q and on 2:21:35.879 --> 2:21:42.119 interacted with these native underlying conspiracy narratives within Germany. UM. 2:21:43.080 --> 2:21:47.280 Because Telegram is already massively popular in Germany before after 2:21:47.440 --> 2:21:49.080 j six, I think of the band wave came down 2:21:49.160 --> 2:21:52.880 and there was much more migration to the platform. So 2:21:53.760 --> 2:21:55.680 you know, I did the social network analysis looking at 2:21:55.800 --> 2:21:59.120 the conspirat German conspiracy is seen on Telegram and one 2:21:59.160 --> 2:22:01.400 of the big guess notes that came up, and I 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:03.800 was looking at a number of times shared into other 2:22:04.320 --> 2:22:08.080 groups their channels was disclosed tv UM and that's the 2:22:08.120 --> 2:22:11.880 first time I came into it. I look through it 2:22:11.879 --> 2:22:16.480 and realized, okay, they there is an editorial stance within 2:22:16.680 --> 2:22:22.040 this UM, and that editorial stance largely attracts conspiracists and 2:22:22.120 --> 2:22:28.280 far right extremists to this coverage into you know, this 2:22:28.400 --> 2:22:31.760 is widely shared among conspiracists and far right extremists. UM. 2:22:33.000 --> 2:22:37.640 Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as many of us are, unfortunately, UM, 2:22:37.800 --> 2:22:40.160 and I saw Disclosed TV just popping up everywhere, UM, 2:22:40.840 --> 2:22:44.480 even from people who who I would think should know better. Yeah, 2:22:44.680 --> 2:22:50.440 absolutely are you know, big extremism researchers and journalists UM 2:22:50.600 --> 2:22:53.120 shared it. I remember there one specific one that really 2:22:53.160 --> 2:22:56.520 came across my feed. UM disclosed had had taken a 2:22:56.600 --> 2:23:03.160 video from like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever whatever doing UM 2:23:03.879 --> 2:23:09.800 about the firefighters who were quitting over vaccine mandate or 2:23:09.879 --> 2:23:13.400 something and had all of their boots or whatever. And 2:23:13.440 --> 2:23:18.120 I saw, yeah, lots of people sharing that as well. UM. 2:23:18.440 --> 2:23:21.760 And eventually I got tired of saying, hey, they should 2:23:21.800 --> 2:23:27.640 just suspect don't share it, UM, and decided to write 2:23:27.640 --> 2:23:29.760 an article about it so I could just send my 2:23:29.879 --> 2:23:33.080 article to people. And it's really interesting what I found. UM. 2:23:33.160 --> 2:23:38.119 Disclosed tv started off in the mid two thousand's as 2:23:39.080 --> 2:23:45.279 just this forum for UFOs, paranormal stuff, cryptids, big foot sightings, 2:23:45.560 --> 2:23:51.640 and existed in largely the same format until two thousand 2:23:51.800 --> 2:23:54.960 and twenty one. Um, there were some shifts in in 2:23:55.600 --> 2:23:59.360 the way the site presented itself. Um. It was it 2:23:59.400 --> 2:24:02.080 started off as a member logging where members could write 2:24:02.440 --> 2:24:05.680 articles that were largely long form forum posts and then 2:24:05.720 --> 2:24:10.840 have people comment on them and reply. Um. And at 2:24:10.879 --> 2:24:16.520 one point Disclosed made the jump to functioning as a 2:24:16.560 --> 2:24:20.960 news aggregator while including an editorial spin on that and 2:24:21.000 --> 2:24:23.240 including some of their own articles. Do you want me 2:24:23.280 --> 2:24:26.800 to get more into that now, Yeah, because yeah, because 2:24:26.800 --> 2:24:31.200 like the shift was was it wasn't like immediate as well, right, 2:24:31.280 --> 2:24:33.400 Like they were starting to kind of present themselves and 2:24:33.480 --> 2:24:37.120 more of a news gathering way, you know. Around the 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:40.480 late of course, during this became a big thing in 2:24:40.600 --> 2:24:43.880 terms of their social media presence. Um, they were trying 2:24:43.920 --> 2:24:47.360 to present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but 2:24:47.480 --> 2:24:49.880 they still operated that. But they still operated the forum 2:24:49.920 --> 2:24:52.119 on their site throughout most of that time. And that's 2:24:52.160 --> 2:24:55.360 only until recently where they shut that forum down, UM, 2:24:55.879 --> 2:24:58.480 which was you know, full of full of all kinds 2:24:58.520 --> 2:25:01.280 of conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see past for 2:25:01.760 --> 2:25:06.520 most people. Uh, secret you know, secret Arctic ship, which 2:25:06.600 --> 2:25:12.000 is yeah, it's always that's usually Yeah, even going to 2:25:12.040 --> 2:25:16.720 get stuff like watch this s j W get wrecked, 2:25:16.879 --> 2:25:18.920 which which is not a quotation, but just that kind 2:25:18.959 --> 2:25:23.400 of vibe, that style of content. Yeah, going from the 2:25:23.560 --> 2:25:26.920 forum operating than with the you know, their social media accounts, 2:25:27.120 --> 2:25:29.280 to the shift this more of like presenting as a 2:25:29.320 --> 2:25:32.320 news website. Talking about that and the potential effects that 2:25:32.400 --> 2:25:35.280 we see this having on both like the social media 2:25:35.400 --> 2:25:39.280 sites and just the overall trend of news aggregation in general. 2:25:39.360 --> 2:25:43.480 I guess. Yeah. So the first big shift that I 2:25:43.640 --> 2:25:46.240 found UM was the creation of their Telegram channel, which 2:25:46.280 --> 2:25:51.039 is in January one actually, so this is relatively more 2:25:51.120 --> 2:25:57.560 recent than shift that happened UM, and they operated their 2:25:57.600 --> 2:26:02.039 Telegram as a as more in this traditional news aggregator 2:26:02.160 --> 2:26:05.359 since and so that's how they really blew up on Telegram. 2:26:05.440 --> 2:26:07.800 At some point they deleted all of their old tweets 2:26:08.120 --> 2:26:10.560 UM and started operating their Twitter in a similar manner. 2:26:10.560 --> 2:26:17.400 It was after they created this telegram channel UM in September, 2:26:17.840 --> 2:26:22.400 actually overnight on septemb they completely re rebranded the site. 2:26:22.920 --> 2:26:26.840 They took out all the user forums UM. They included 2:26:27.320 --> 2:26:34.080 backdated articles to a year prior UM, and looking looking 2:26:34.080 --> 2:26:38.080 through archives of that, there was a note saying something 2:26:38.400 --> 2:26:41.520 along the lines of we have found so much growth 2:26:41.840 --> 2:26:44.680 on our social media are growing Telegram channel, are growing 2:26:45.040 --> 2:26:50.840 Twitter account UM, and something to the effect of we 2:26:51.080 --> 2:26:53.760 we are changing our strategy and going about this a 2:26:53.879 --> 2:26:58.120 different way. UM. And you can if you were into 2:26:58.160 --> 2:27:01.120 the forum, you can join our discord um which is 2:27:02.040 --> 2:27:05.920 defunct and I'll get I'll get into that later. UM. 2:27:07.920 --> 2:27:11.000 And yeah, looking it was really interesting too because looking 2:27:11.080 --> 2:27:18.680 at these backdated articles UM, they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM. 2:27:19.160 --> 2:27:21.920 They had I believe it's it's all in the article, 2:27:22.080 --> 2:27:27.440 but they had four journalists UM names attached with the 2:27:27.560 --> 2:27:34.760 article using um AI generated images for their pictures UM. 2:27:37.440 --> 2:27:42.320 And as the especially the articles that they themselves published 2:27:42.560 --> 2:27:49.320 UM were very focused on UFOs, paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM, 2:27:49.800 --> 2:27:55.920 as well as content that could cause skepticism within an 2:27:56.040 --> 2:28:00.880 audience about vaccines and lockdowns. And I do not know 2:28:01.280 --> 2:28:05.680 the intent of their editorial board and so I cannot 2:28:05.680 --> 2:28:08.920 speak on that, but of course we generated this effect. Yes, 2:28:09.080 --> 2:28:12.360 that is, they found a way of creating content which 2:28:12.400 --> 2:28:15.200 develops a very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which 2:28:15.320 --> 2:28:18.720 made them, you know, what one could assume would make 2:28:18.760 --> 2:28:20.360 them want to make more of that content because it 2:28:20.440 --> 2:28:23.280 makes more numbers than they can UM use that to 2:28:23.320 --> 2:28:28.640 grow their platform. UM. Yeah. Specifically leading up like after 2:28:28.879 --> 2:28:32.600 after January UM ramping up one of the vaccines were 2:28:32.600 --> 2:28:34.320 coming more and more common in the States and that 2:28:34.480 --> 2:28:38.439 across the world. UM. They have seen a pretty significant 2:28:38.520 --> 2:28:44.360 growth and have changed their platform accordingly exactly. UM. So 2:28:45.000 --> 2:28:50.000 we began looking into who the who the fun owns this, 2:28:50.120 --> 2:28:54.640 what's going on with this UM. Like all German companies 2:28:55.160 --> 2:28:58.520 UM and it is based in Germany, there's a requirement 2:28:58.560 --> 2:29:01.240 by law to include an imprint or impress them that 2:29:01.400 --> 2:29:08.640 includes an address, UM contact information for the site UM. 2:29:09.080 --> 2:29:13.039 There in the company that owns it UM a company 2:29:13.080 --> 2:29:17.879 called Future Bites operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself 2:29:17.879 --> 2:29:22.760 as a private equity firm and media group. UM and 2:29:22.840 --> 2:29:26.160 looking into the ownership behind Future Bites is a man 2:29:26.360 --> 2:29:29.400 by the name of Uva Brown who has a pretty 2:29:29.440 --> 2:29:34.080 interesting backstory. He's hosted, He's made numerous web hosting sites UM. 2:29:35.040 --> 2:29:38.360 I believe he created some dating sites as well, but 2:29:38.560 --> 2:29:41.959 but my research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM. 2:29:43.000 --> 2:29:45.760 But eventually he sold. He had his most success when 2:29:45.840 --> 2:29:49.680 he sold one of his web hosting sites to go 2:29:49.879 --> 2:29:54.680 Daddy for a lot of money, and along the way, 2:29:55.080 --> 2:29:58.840 in his own as he described, booked a flight on 2:29:59.320 --> 2:30:01.880 virgin to go into space and see for himself if 2:30:01.920 --> 2:30:04.800 the earth, if the Earth was flat. Oh my god, 2:30:05.440 --> 2:30:09.880 awesome cool that that, this is great, thank you. So 2:30:10.040 --> 2:30:14.400 this this is who we're dealing with, um. Sweet. And 2:30:14.840 --> 2:30:18.280 the thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that 2:30:18.600 --> 2:30:23.920 that becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a 2:30:24.040 --> 2:30:29.080 very different uh, look at free speech than in the US. UM. 2:30:29.200 --> 2:30:34.400 For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the 2:30:34.480 --> 2:30:37.920 Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime. They can 2:30:37.959 --> 2:30:43.840 get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as 2:30:43.920 --> 2:30:47.039 I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berny Piper 2:30:47.080 --> 2:30:49.920 and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored 2:30:50.840 --> 2:30:54.320 their discord and their telegram. We realized, Hum, seems to 2:30:54.400 --> 2:30:57.160 be a lot of Nazis here, and by which when 2:30:57.200 --> 2:30:58.760 I say seems to be a lot of Nazis, I 2:30:58.840 --> 2:31:03.880 mean people with swastikas in their profile builds UM with 2:31:04.640 --> 2:31:09.760 you know, names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers parentheses UM, 2:31:10.120 --> 2:31:14.160 and saying denying that the hologast happened, UM, and also 2:31:14.320 --> 2:31:18.680 sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous new Nazi 2:31:18.720 --> 2:31:24.760 propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which was shared 2:31:24.840 --> 2:31:29.200 by prominent q and On influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah I know. UM, 2:31:30.400 --> 2:31:33.360 oh man, this this came up a few days ago. 2:31:33.560 --> 2:31:37.640 One of the one of the channels that me and 2:31:37.760 --> 2:31:42.360 someone else have been watching, UH forwarded me it being 2:31:42.560 --> 2:31:44.880 that that that film being shared at the it was 2:31:45.000 --> 2:31:48.439 it was it was that the the Free Oregon Telegram 2:31:48.560 --> 2:31:52.360 channel was sharing links to that and I wonder I 2:31:52.400 --> 2:31:54.040 would I would like to track back where that link 2:31:54.160 --> 2:31:58.800 came from. UM. Yeah. Not not great seeing that film 2:31:58.920 --> 2:32:01.480 circulate more and more, specially among like you know, the 2:32:01.640 --> 2:32:04.480 free organ Telegram channels, you know, like Anti mask, Anti backs, 2:32:04.800 --> 2:32:09.200 Anti Lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing the percoloration of that 2:32:09.320 --> 2:32:14.960 type of content. Yeah. So, in preparing for this article UM, 2:32:16.360 --> 2:32:19.320 with the help of of the Logically editorial team, I'm 2:32:19.360 --> 2:32:24.560 a freelancer UM, their current head of content, Ernie Piper 2:32:24.840 --> 2:32:29.640 UM sent an email basically asking, Hey, what's going on. 2:32:30.400 --> 2:32:32.240 You all seem to have a Nazi problem that's kind 2:32:32.240 --> 2:32:39.000 of borderline illegal in Germany, UM, to which for a 2:32:39.080 --> 2:32:42.039 while this for for about twenty four hours as closed, 2:32:42.080 --> 2:32:45.600 just went totally quiet and didn't post Um and then 2:32:45.840 --> 2:32:52.119 came out with a post specifically targeting Ernie Um by 2:32:52.240 --> 2:32:54.400 name and with a picture of him and linking to 2:32:54.520 --> 2:33:00.360 some of his old reporting work as well, Um saying yes, 2:33:00.720 --> 2:33:03.800 Uva Brown owns this. He got his money from Go daddy. 2:33:04.320 --> 2:33:08.480 You know, we value free speech and we condemn hatred whatnot, 2:33:08.640 --> 2:33:10.920 and and saying, oh, our telegram we have a tell 2:33:11.040 --> 2:33:13.120 there's a telegram group, but we have these rules in it, 2:33:13.360 --> 2:33:16.600 and uh, okay, yeah, we we had to shut down 2:33:16.680 --> 2:33:19.360 the discord that got a little bit out of hand. 2:33:19.440 --> 2:33:22.000 We admit that. You know, they had people denying the 2:33:22.040 --> 2:33:26.320 Holocaust with swastka icons in their discord that they didn't 2:33:26.320 --> 2:33:30.800 seem to care too much about until someone pointed it out. Um. 2:33:32.080 --> 2:33:35.920 And you know there's there was additionally very explicit neo 2:33:36.000 --> 2:33:39.800 Nazi content in their telegram channel as well, with the excuse, 2:33:39.879 --> 2:33:44.280 oh well, we're a glowing growing platform. We we can't 2:33:44.400 --> 2:33:47.040 moderate everything. Is well they have They just crossed four 2:33:47.120 --> 2:33:49.640 hundred thousand in their telegram channel and I think about 2:33:49.720 --> 2:33:57.440 thirty thousand and their telegram group UM, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah, 2:33:57.720 --> 2:34:01.160 that is if if my personal opinion is that if 2:34:01.200 --> 2:34:05.400 you cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space, 2:34:05.840 --> 2:34:09.320 you probably shouldn't the space the space. Um And and 2:34:09.400 --> 2:34:13.120 additionally confirming, oh, okay, we we when we made our 2:34:13.160 --> 2:34:15.520 new version of the site. Yes, we backdated some articles 2:34:15.640 --> 2:34:20.840 from previous user generated content that we you know, didn't 2:34:20.920 --> 2:34:24.160 vet properly. We're trying to fix that now they remove 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:27.800 some of those articles. Um. And that yeah, we none 2:34:27.840 --> 2:34:31.760 of the people who who are the authors of our 2:34:31.879 --> 2:34:34.640 articles are real people and they're all pen names. Um. 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:37.840 You know. They also have or at least had a 2:34:37.879 --> 2:34:40.320 tab on their website that said right for us and 2:34:41.080 --> 2:34:43.960 looking for people to send them things and saying you know, 2:34:44.040 --> 2:34:46.240 well we will disclose your bio and link to all 2:34:46.280 --> 2:34:48.520 your social media if you write a story for us. 2:34:48.560 --> 2:34:52.240 And they're there was zero of that happening as well. 2:34:53.080 --> 2:34:55.720 So do you think that, I know, like on the 2:34:55.879 --> 2:35:00.240 rules for their telegram they have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um. 2:35:00.600 --> 2:35:02.640 Do you think they're actually trying to discourage that because 2:35:02.640 --> 2:35:05.640 they're scared of legal stuff or is that just presentorary 2:35:06.160 --> 2:35:08.280 and they I guess you know, this is just going 2:35:08.320 --> 2:35:10.120 into speculations so I think this might be more a 2:35:10.200 --> 2:35:13.440 question for even Robert Um in terms of yeah, like 2:35:14.680 --> 2:35:17.640 is the anti Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does 2:35:17.680 --> 2:35:19.800 seem to be a lot of their user base is 2:35:19.840 --> 2:35:22.240 fostering that type of thing or is you know being 2:35:22.280 --> 2:35:26.360 moved over from other similar channels. Um? Because yeah, like 2:35:26.400 --> 2:35:28.480 a lot of like the amount that we see disclose, 2:35:29.000 --> 2:35:31.240 like you know, intercept with channels like you know, the 2:35:31.320 --> 2:35:33.440 Rise Above Him the channel, UM, and a whole bunch 2:35:33.440 --> 2:35:35.880 of like eco fascist channels, and a whole bunch of 2:35:36.000 --> 2:35:38.720 channels you know on a like a broad range of 2:35:38.760 --> 2:35:40.920 like actual like fascist topics, like people who are like 2:35:41.040 --> 2:35:44.040 into fascist theory. Um. Is quite high that like the 2:35:44.240 --> 2:35:48.280 amount that disclosed shows up. Um. And I don't know, 2:35:48.520 --> 2:35:50.920 like you could look at all their stuff saying I mean, 2:35:51.000 --> 2:35:52.920 like yeah on on the their rule page saying no 2:35:53.040 --> 2:35:56.600 Nazi bullshit. Um. But then if you spend any amount 2:35:56.600 --> 2:35:58.920 of time looking at at where they're posts are forwarded, 2:35:59.160 --> 2:36:03.640 it's almost primary early people who self describe themselves as fascists. UM. 2:36:05.040 --> 2:36:07.320 So I mean, yeah, it's hard to or Donald J. 2:36:07.480 --> 2:36:12.040 Trump Jr. Yes, Yes, it expands out into a lot 2:36:12.080 --> 2:36:14.959 of you know, just like you know, American journalists suits 2:36:15.280 --> 2:36:19.200 studying streamism could also share Discloses stuff on Twitter, right, 2:36:19.560 --> 2:36:22.240 that is part of their thing is making that and 2:36:22.360 --> 2:36:24.320 you know that that does strengthen them because it gives 2:36:24.400 --> 2:36:26.680 them that legitimacy. So then when people point out that 2:36:26.680 --> 2:36:28.840 they have Nazi problem, like, no, that's not us, that's 2:36:28.920 --> 2:36:31.200 just some of our users who are trolling or you 2:36:31.240 --> 2:36:35.200 know whatever whatever bullshit they want to say. Um so 2:36:35.280 --> 2:36:37.920 I guess, like how I guess the real way to 2:36:37.959 --> 2:36:42.320 frame this is like how often have you seen Nazi 2:36:42.360 --> 2:36:45.240 stuff associated with the disclose with the Disclosed TV brand? 2:36:45.400 --> 2:36:47.320 Because that's the one thing we actually can measure, right, 2:36:47.360 --> 2:36:49.560 we can't measure their intentions, but we can't measure how 2:36:49.680 --> 2:36:53.280 often this stuff happens. Yeah, I mean that's always like 2:36:53.400 --> 2:36:56.280 the best way to measure that kind of thing, rather 2:36:56.320 --> 2:37:00.440 than just sort of like making the allegation sting, like 2:37:00.920 --> 2:37:02.720 we find it in this many channels, we see it 2:37:02.840 --> 2:37:05.879 shared in these areas, it's being discussed by these people, 2:37:05.959 --> 2:37:09.880 and like like that that's I think always kind of 2:37:09.920 --> 2:37:12.720 how you actually build these these sort of networks is 2:37:12.840 --> 2:37:16.560 by looking at what is actually spreading where like that's 2:37:17.200 --> 2:37:20.000 it is thankfully something that you can measure pretty objectively, 2:37:20.480 --> 2:37:22.520 and like they are fostering it with the amount of 2:37:23.160 --> 2:37:25.320 stuff they talk about like George Soros and you know, 2:37:25.400 --> 2:37:27.480 the amount of stuff that they like. The way they 2:37:27.680 --> 2:37:32.480 frame breaking news is is has that editorial bent where 2:37:32.560 --> 2:37:34.959 it's very clear that it's getting pushed in a specific 2:37:35.040 --> 2:37:39.160 direction like there's that is that is a thing that 2:37:39.320 --> 2:37:42.440 you can't observe by reading the type of narratives they're 2:37:42.560 --> 2:37:47.840 weaving via how they report information. Um, the the topics 2:37:47.920 --> 2:37:52.760 that they choose to cover, our topics that resonate very 2:37:52.840 --> 2:37:59.040 deeply with conspiracist and with far extremist communities. UM. If 2:37:59.080 --> 2:38:02.160 I had to suspect late, UM, I will say at 2:38:02.240 --> 2:38:06.440 least since the article has come out, Um, they've done 2:38:06.480 --> 2:38:10.480 a better job of moderating their telegram channel at least 2:38:10.560 --> 2:38:14.800 for now. So good job, disclosed TV no one. You 2:38:14.920 --> 2:38:17.680 can't find links to Europe with the last battle there anymore. 2:38:17.720 --> 2:38:22.840 You can still find you can still find very rampant 2:38:23.000 --> 2:38:30.279 homophobia slurs, um, because you know they didn't. They clearly 2:38:30.320 --> 2:38:33.360 auto blocked some words, but people can shorten them or 2:38:33.520 --> 2:38:36.440 use different spellings for those words to still be used 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:44.640 in the channel. Um, there's still anti Semitic um coded 2:38:44.680 --> 2:38:48.920 anti Semitic references as well responding to something saying oive 2:38:48.959 --> 2:38:53.560 a for example, which is something that tends to be 2:38:53.680 --> 2:38:58.680 used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah, 2:38:58.879 --> 2:39:01.320 I mean, even if you do any amount of research 2:39:01.400 --> 2:39:05.440 on Telegram, you will you will find forward links, forwarded 2:39:05.480 --> 2:39:09.800 links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's it is, 2:39:10.160 --> 2:39:15.279 it is so massive. The footprint that they have currently 2:39:15.959 --> 2:39:20.920 in the in like the the cycle of of forwarding 2:39:20.959 --> 2:39:25.320 posts specifically on Telegram UM and yeah, and they're they're 2:39:25.320 --> 2:39:27.960 getting a lot of traction on it because they have 2:39:28.080 --> 2:39:30.000 stuff framed in a way that's really easy for them 2:39:31.040 --> 2:39:34.640 to have those stuff like line up with the communities 2:39:35.280 --> 2:39:39.440 that promote those types of worldviews UM and promote the 2:39:39.600 --> 2:39:42.880 you know, the narratives that they want to foster. So 2:39:43.240 --> 2:39:47.520 let's see, let's have another quick break and then let's 2:39:47.920 --> 2:39:53.040 maybe talk about your big master's project, which is really interesting. Yeah, 2:39:53.080 --> 2:39:55.520 can I can? I? Can I do it? Yeah? I 2:39:55.600 --> 2:40:00.840 do that. You know, you know what isn't telegram literally 2:40:00.959 --> 2:40:03.320 these ads unless we get an ad by Telegram, which 2:40:03.400 --> 2:40:07.240 we are primarily sponsored by the Duo Brothers UM. But 2:40:07.560 --> 2:40:11.160 that's for a separate project. My favorite at is the 2:40:11.840 --> 2:40:13.240 is the one where it's the kid playing and they 2:40:13.280 --> 2:40:18.959 find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And well 2:40:19.080 --> 2:40:21.400 we are thanks to great job. Great We hope everybody 2:40:21.520 --> 2:40:26.880 enjoyed that kid finding a gun kid firing it. Yeah, 2:40:27.200 --> 2:40:31.160 so there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody, 2:40:31.240 --> 2:40:34.640 it was somebody like clipped a screen grabbing news article 2:40:34.720 --> 2:40:37.600 that was like a toddler has shot someone every day 2:40:37.720 --> 2:40:39.680 in the United States for the last three years, and 2:40:39.760 --> 2:40:44.840 somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him. It's 2:40:44.959 --> 2:40:50.400 very kish. UM. The last thing I want to talk 2:40:50.400 --> 2:40:53.800 about is just kind of why news aggregators are bad 2:40:53.840 --> 2:40:56.720 in the first place, and examples of which we've seen 2:40:56.879 --> 2:40:58.920 the past few years, and how they contribute to dis 2:40:58.959 --> 2:41:02.720 information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for any 2:41:02.840 --> 2:41:05.039 claims and they try to make themselves a primary source 2:41:05.120 --> 2:41:07.680 even though they're not. UM And then also would love 2:41:07.720 --> 2:41:14.120 to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah, we 2:41:14.200 --> 2:41:18.920 saw a lot of news aggregators that like during the protest, 2:41:18.959 --> 2:41:23.920 specifically that that spawned and killed many a news aggregator 2:41:23.959 --> 2:41:27.960 account UM, which did not help things very much. UM 2:41:28.360 --> 2:41:30.480 and this is is an issue that strikes across the 2:41:30.480 --> 2:41:34.080 political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest instances 2:41:34.120 --> 2:41:37.240 of that would be an account called an on cat right. 2:41:37.320 --> 2:41:43.080 That was the yeah um who you know marketed themselves 2:41:43.120 --> 2:41:45.760 towards the left wing um. And again I don't know 2:41:45.800 --> 2:41:47.720 what their intentionality was. They may have had their heart 2:41:47.720 --> 2:41:49.720 in the right place. I have no idea, um and 2:41:49.760 --> 2:41:51.880 I'm not gonna speculate on that right now. But the 2:41:51.959 --> 2:41:57.439 effect that they caused was damaging to how information is disseminated, 2:41:57.720 --> 2:42:02.039 specifically in high stress events. Um. You know, like for instance, 2:42:02.080 --> 2:42:04.800 the written house shooting, you know, like stuff like that. Uh, 2:42:05.160 --> 2:42:09.320 like the big accounts, the demos around that before that, yeah, 2:42:09.400 --> 2:42:13.600 before that, yes, yeah, like the the in fostering that 2:42:13.840 --> 2:42:18.680 very fast paced unverified information circulation UM that gets you 2:42:18.720 --> 2:42:20.320 know a lot of retweets, It gets it gets a 2:42:20.320 --> 2:42:23.640 lot of eyeballs on it. But but it's hard. It 2:42:23.760 --> 2:42:27.400 makes it very hard to backtrack claims because they do 2:42:27.600 --> 2:42:30.720 not want to link to other accounts because they're mostly 2:42:30.760 --> 2:42:34.320 interested in growing their own account. Um. So and I 2:42:34.400 --> 2:42:38.600 will say Disclose has gotten better about linking to the sources, 2:42:38.720 --> 2:42:42.320 even if the title and the tweet don't necessarily match 2:42:42.760 --> 2:42:46.960 what is in the story they linked to. Yeah, at 2:42:47.000 --> 2:42:50.280 least someone could take a different interpretation from the two. Yes, So, 2:42:50.600 --> 2:42:52.520 just like you know, news aggregation and the way it 2:42:52.600 --> 2:42:56.000 intersects with disinformation and misinformation. Not just a problem for 2:42:56.040 --> 2:42:57.760 the far right, not just a problem for the right wing, 2:42:58.200 --> 2:43:00.600 not just a problem for liberals, not just for leftist 2:43:00.680 --> 2:43:04.000 This is the thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp onto. Um. 2:43:04.200 --> 2:43:06.560 And some of it's accidental, some of it's intentional. Right, 2:43:06.640 --> 2:43:10.480 there's some some people might just do this kind of mindlessly, 2:43:10.720 --> 2:43:12.960 and some people may, you know, do this aggregation with 2:43:13.000 --> 2:43:15.320 a very specific intent in mind. So just be very 2:43:15.360 --> 2:43:18.640 careful whenever you have an account that always leads with 2:43:18.920 --> 2:43:23.160 all caps like breaking like news. Like if if you 2:43:23.240 --> 2:43:26.440 have an account that always does that, maybe maybe maybe 2:43:26.440 --> 2:43:28.600 don't take that account super seriously all the time. Maybe 2:43:28.600 --> 2:43:31.120 you should uh find other sources of info that don't 2:43:31.160 --> 2:43:34.200 always start the tweets with breaking news and all caps 2:43:34.560 --> 2:43:36.920 or advice to people if they do want something like that, 2:43:37.640 --> 2:43:41.520 find an actual news source. Yeah, there's plenty of valid 2:43:41.600 --> 2:43:47.400 criticism to be made against you know, these mainstream media 2:43:47.720 --> 2:43:51.160 m s M. Centrist stuff from from you know, even 2:43:51.200 --> 2:43:54.400 from the left, there's there's criticism. Um, but you have 2:43:54.600 --> 2:43:57.280 to find some way of finding your own meaning and 2:43:57.360 --> 2:43:59.760 understanding of what is going on in the world around you. 2:44:00.200 --> 2:44:06.440 I think CNN Reuters. Yeah, And on that point, I 2:44:06.520 --> 2:44:10.040 think that is part of why I think Disclosed can 2:44:10.160 --> 2:44:12.920 succeed and or like what they did can succeed. Even 2:44:13.120 --> 2:44:15.520 like when I see stuff shared on the left, even 2:44:15.560 --> 2:44:19.080 by like anarchists, because it is a not mainstream media 2:44:19.200 --> 2:44:22.680 news source, the way they can frame things of sometimes 2:44:22.840 --> 2:44:25.520 rarely will match up with like an actual anarchist views 2:44:25.640 --> 2:44:27.080 and the like, Yeah, I'm going to share it from 2:44:27.120 --> 2:44:29.440 this thing because it does feel like an underground you 2:44:29.520 --> 2:44:32.320 know source. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's not you're not 2:44:32.400 --> 2:44:35.640 sharing a CNN article, so you feel better because instead 2:44:35.680 --> 2:44:38.480 you're sharing something that is not in the mainstream. So 2:44:38.640 --> 2:44:41.880 like I get that, I get that pull to not 2:44:42.160 --> 2:44:46.119 something that genuous reading of a CNN article instead. Yeah, 2:44:46.240 --> 2:44:48.080 but instead of you're you know, it's not actually better, 2:44:48.160 --> 2:44:52.080 it's just marketing. They're just tricking you via aesthetics and branding, 2:44:52.160 --> 2:44:55.640 and that's all that it is, right, So maybe you 2:44:55.680 --> 2:44:59.160 should learn learn to see past the marketing and branding 2:44:59.160 --> 2:45:00.600 of those types of things and look at the actual 2:45:00.840 --> 2:45:05.040 content of what's being shared. What is the university project 2:45:05.160 --> 2:45:09.440 thing that has been taking up a lot of your time? Yeah, 2:45:09.560 --> 2:45:12.480 and um, so you're back in the US, and I 2:45:12.520 --> 2:45:16.560 got interested, um, especially in looking at the spread of 2:45:16.640 --> 2:45:18.920 Q and on in Germany, and that you led me 2:45:19.000 --> 2:45:24.720 down this research path, um, and brought me especially to telegram. Um. 2:45:24.800 --> 2:45:29.240 Again before it was largely used in in right wing 2:45:29.320 --> 2:45:31.720 circles in the U. S well, the the Nazis have 2:45:31.959 --> 2:45:35.640 have pretty regularly in the US, but on telegram as well. Um. 2:45:36.920 --> 2:45:39.280 But this led me to look at this and and 2:45:40.440 --> 2:45:44.080 especially to to look at telegram the context of as 2:45:44.120 --> 2:45:48.520 I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic billy you, um, 2:45:49.320 --> 2:45:51.120 which I don't know if y'all have talked about that 2:45:51.600 --> 2:45:57.080 on this we have one behind, okay, but Yeah, to 2:45:57.360 --> 2:46:00.400 give a quick summary, is is the con scept that 2:46:02.200 --> 2:46:04.760 there is this space and when Colin Campbell wrote that, 2:46:04.879 --> 2:46:07.840 it was in I believe the seventies. So it was 2:46:08.160 --> 2:46:14.080 a physical space where people go to find these rejected narratives, 2:46:14.160 --> 2:46:16.720 you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge, and they 2:46:16.760 --> 2:46:19.560 go to seek this kind of knowledge, and and and 2:46:19.680 --> 2:46:22.360 these things. UM. So he's talking about things like UFO 2:46:22.520 --> 2:46:28.280 conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores, or 2:46:28.400 --> 2:46:31.640 perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get a 2:46:31.720 --> 2:46:39.320 degree in metaphysics. Yeah. As what a weirdly specific example, Gars, Yeah, sorry, 2:46:39.360 --> 2:46:42.280 that does red the red of thought. Yeah, anyway, how's 2:46:42.320 --> 2:46:47.520 that going, by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good. Yeah. 2:46:47.680 --> 2:46:51.720 And and what you find is is people can very 2:46:51.800 --> 2:46:57.120 easily move between ideologies, UM. And as they move between 2:46:57.760 --> 2:47:02.360 ideologies concepts, specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM. 2:47:02.440 --> 2:47:04.000 And this is how you get these kind of highly 2:47:04.360 --> 2:47:09.480 syncretic movements like Q and on UM, like the modern 2:47:09.560 --> 2:47:14.560 conspiracy movement UM, which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some 2:47:14.680 --> 2:47:17.000 of the other really bad ones that are out there 2:47:17.040 --> 2:47:22.200 as well that combine these different views UM. Specifically, when 2:47:22.240 --> 2:47:23.760 you start when you start combining the type of like 2:47:23.920 --> 2:47:30.560 cultural mysticism with politics, often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly, 2:47:31.320 --> 2:47:37.039 can you think of any examples? I mean, in some ways, 2:47:37.040 --> 2:47:38.960 the modern eco fascist movement is built on a lot 2:47:39.000 --> 2:47:40.480 of this type of stuff, so that that would be 2:47:40.560 --> 2:47:43.440 the easiest, that would be the easiest one. I think 2:47:43.520 --> 2:47:45.760 that the syncretism of because I think a lot of 2:47:45.800 --> 2:47:48.720 people have been surprised to see like you know, kind 2:47:48.720 --> 2:47:53.160 of like natural medicine and whatnot, subcultures and eight like 2:47:53.280 --> 2:47:56.800 alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q and on and 2:47:57.040 --> 2:48:01.400 and these like more like far right neo Nazi type groups, 2:48:01.440 --> 2:48:03.000 and the fact that there are all of these things 2:48:03.040 --> 2:48:05.440 that were associated for years kind of more with the 2:48:05.560 --> 2:48:10.039 left have been increasingly um pulled into this this sort 2:48:10.080 --> 2:48:14.480 of weather system of conspiratorial thinking has been surprising to 2:48:14.520 --> 2:48:16.240 a lot of people who don't understand this stuff. But 2:48:16.280 --> 2:48:18.640 it makes total sense if you if you have been 2:48:18.680 --> 2:48:22.840 paying attention to the scholarship on on what is actually 2:48:23.040 --> 2:48:26.840 like how cults sort of form like it's it's it's um. 2:48:27.160 --> 2:48:29.600 It's like a weather pattern that's been building for quite 2:48:29.600 --> 2:48:32.280 a while. There's a gravity to it that sucks um 2:48:32.800 --> 2:48:35.879 everything in together, and it all kind of it's as 2:48:35.879 --> 2:48:39.920 you said, syncretic um. It's because not to get into 2:48:39.959 --> 2:48:41.400 horseshoe there, but this is even how you get some 2:48:41.480 --> 2:48:44.000 of that crossover, right, Yes, yeah, that was that was 2:48:44.240 --> 2:48:45.440 That was what I was just gonna mention, is that 2:48:45.640 --> 2:48:47.800 even a lot of like the left wing authors or 2:48:47.879 --> 2:48:50.000 you know, post left wing authors who got into this 2:48:50.160 --> 2:48:54.080 like cultural mysticism. Um, you see their texts now getting 2:48:54.160 --> 2:48:57.039 shared by like like open fascists. Even though these authors 2:48:57.120 --> 2:49:00.879 were anti fascist, Um, they are able to still pick 2:49:00.920 --> 2:49:03.560 and choose what parts they're writing to appropriate because some 2:49:03.680 --> 2:49:10.280 of it can kind of synchronize ends a very long time. 2:49:10.400 --> 2:49:12.279 Like if you we've we talked about in our Gabriel 2:49:12.360 --> 2:49:14.880 the Nunzio episodes Fume, which was this kind of like 2:49:15.040 --> 2:49:19.240 we're a large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement 2:49:19.320 --> 2:49:22.400 got started, um in the post World War One period, 2:49:22.440 --> 2:49:24.320 but also there were like a ton of anarchists and 2:49:24.400 --> 2:49:28.000 a lot of like left wing um like thought leaders 2:49:28.040 --> 2:49:30.160 and whatnot. We're kind of all it was again kind 2:49:30.160 --> 2:49:32.720 of there there was this kind of like gravity center 2:49:32.840 --> 2:49:35.720 that pulled everything in and it all started churning together. 2:49:36.360 --> 2:49:41.000 And um, yeah, we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now, 2:49:41.480 --> 2:49:47.120 um and it sucks. That's great to jump back to 2:49:47.160 --> 2:49:49.000 campl That's one of those examples of those physical space 2:49:49.040 --> 2:49:52.080 of the call and that call Campbell was talking about right, Um, 2:49:53.120 --> 2:49:55.520 where it's it's any place that ideas that are rejected 2:49:55.600 --> 2:49:59.920 by you know, the orthodox kind of the establishment they're 2:50:00.120 --> 2:50:03.120 is overlap. There is not necessarily ideological overlap, but there 2:50:03.240 --> 2:50:05.920 is an interplay between them as people move between them 2:50:05.920 --> 2:50:08.760 and as these ideas come into collision with one another. 2:50:09.400 --> 2:50:14.200 Um and with the Internet, right, whole different fucking ball game. 2:50:14.920 --> 2:50:21.800 Um yeah, because that space is now everywhere exactly and 2:50:22.000 --> 2:50:26.240 and telegram specifically has these specific affordances that make it 2:50:26.360 --> 2:50:31.119 ideal for having this soup of bullshit on it as well. Um, 2:50:31.320 --> 2:50:35.240 it's it's additionally one of and this may be changing. 2:50:35.240 --> 2:50:37.640 There's a lot of discussion going on about this, especially 2:50:37.720 --> 2:50:40.480 within the German government, who could actually they already have 2:50:40.480 --> 2:50:42.840 a law that they could use to say, hey, you 2:50:42.920 --> 2:50:45.200 can't have Nazis on you can't have this Nazi ship 2:50:45.800 --> 2:50:50.039 in telegram. Um. But telegrams one of these last places 2:50:50.560 --> 2:50:53.680 where where things are largely allowed to spread without any 2:50:53.800 --> 2:50:58.280 kind of interruption, right, um, which I do think you 2:50:58.360 --> 2:51:00.640 know you look at telegram is used in in um, 2:51:01.360 --> 2:51:03.800 the Hong Kong Uprising as well, it was used for 2:51:04.879 --> 2:51:08.640 it was used in the George Yeah, George Floyd uprising 2:51:08.680 --> 2:51:12.920 as well. Um. And it's the same things that people 2:51:12.959 --> 2:51:16.920 too at time is fake, um, bolish lane of your time. Um. 2:51:18.160 --> 2:51:23.280 But shooting your clock, Shoot the fucking clock. But okay, 2:51:23.879 --> 2:51:26.600 let's get back to the topic. Yeah, but but but 2:51:26.800 --> 2:51:28.920 but drumming back into this Telegram markets itself, is this 2:51:29.120 --> 2:51:32.840 very secure platform. It's probably not right. It does have 2:51:33.120 --> 2:51:35.880 it's certainly not. No, yeah, absolutely not. It does have. 2:51:36.320 --> 2:51:39.000 It does have encrypted chats, but that's only for one 2:51:39.080 --> 2:51:42.320 to one messaging between people. And even then you need 2:51:42.360 --> 2:51:44.480 to go and make you sure that security settings right. 2:51:44.520 --> 2:51:48.200 And again I I don't fully trust that. Yeah, I 2:51:48.320 --> 2:51:57.320 don't fully try. I mean signal is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 2:51:57.320 --> 2:52:00.640 I trust conversations when everyone has put their own inside 2:52:00.680 --> 2:52:03.119 a Faraday bag in a house and then we walked 2:52:03.160 --> 2:52:06.160 two miles into we walked two miles into the woods, 2:52:06.200 --> 2:52:10.440 then you can have a conversation. Yeah. Um, but Telegram 2:52:10.480 --> 2:52:13.960 market itself is very secure app right, um, which is 2:52:14.000 --> 2:52:16.240 which is largely marketing. You know, it's it's appeal is 2:52:16.280 --> 2:52:19.000 that it's not WhatsApp, it's not owned by Facebook. It's 2:52:19.000 --> 2:52:21.920 probably worth acknowledging that for because it's also very popular 2:52:22.000 --> 2:52:24.280 with a lot of people in um, you know, parts 2:52:24.320 --> 2:52:27.240 of the global South and countries with authoritarian governments, and 2:52:27.320 --> 2:52:29.359 it is has been used for a lot of organizing. 2:52:29.400 --> 2:52:33.000 It can be more secure and all more secure, but 2:52:33.160 --> 2:52:37.720 also more accessible um than what than any other tool 2:52:37.800 --> 2:52:40.080 people have access to. I mean in Syria, it's like 2:52:40.320 --> 2:52:44.320 it's again extremely common for like neighbors, like neighborhoods and 2:52:44.400 --> 2:52:46.920 towns will have like Telegram groups for this little village 2:52:46.959 --> 2:52:49.280 where they A lot of stuff gets done over Telegram 2:52:49.360 --> 2:52:52.200 in places like that. And Telegram sits in this interesting 2:52:52.360 --> 2:52:55.880 space between social media. UM. It's not a full on 2:52:55.920 --> 2:52:58.199 social media site, but it's also not just a messaging 2:52:58.240 --> 2:53:01.960 app like Telegram. It's kind of to categorize. It is 2:53:02.000 --> 2:53:05.080 an interesting sort of like in between type thing. Yeah, 2:53:05.080 --> 2:53:09.080 because you can have essentially unlimited I think the number 2:53:09.200 --> 2:53:11.480 is in the hundreds of thousands for how many people 2:53:11.520 --> 2:53:15.880 can join a group message UM on Telegram. And you 2:53:15.920 --> 2:53:19.240 also have these one way messaging thing called channels, where 2:53:19.360 --> 2:53:21.160 where one person or group of people can send out 2:53:21.200 --> 2:53:26.680 messages that appear alongside everyone else's message feed as well. UM, 2:53:27.720 --> 2:53:30.000 and that can you can also enable comments on that UM, 2:53:30.040 --> 2:53:32.920 which I'll get into in a second. UM. But but 2:53:33.040 --> 2:53:35.760 it's a great way to share information as well. And 2:53:35.840 --> 2:53:38.800 what I was specifically looking at is the forwarding of 2:53:38.920 --> 2:53:41.200 messages because you you can forward a message from this 2:53:41.280 --> 2:53:44.360 one channel into whatever group chat you're in, and it 2:53:44.480 --> 2:53:47.120 links back to that channel. And I was interested in saying, 2:53:47.879 --> 2:53:50.360 how far you know, what connections can we make from this? 2:53:50.480 --> 2:53:54.600 What kind of zigzagging can we find? Um enhancer is 2:53:54.640 --> 2:54:00.560 sucking a lot yea where where someone may may used 2:54:00.600 --> 2:54:04.080 Telegram for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and 2:54:04.120 --> 2:54:07.600 then someone forwards a messages a message for this channel 2:54:08.000 --> 2:54:10.880 UM or for this other group message UM, where they 2:54:10.920 --> 2:54:13.920 talk about, oh, here's kind of help practices to use. 2:54:14.000 --> 2:54:17.720 And then you get into the pseudo science of things 2:54:17.800 --> 2:54:20.880 crossing into further messages from what's forward forward groups and 2:54:20.959 --> 2:54:23.520 channels from what's forwarded into that group and channel, and 2:54:23.600 --> 2:54:25.320 so on so on, until you get to the neo 2:54:25.400 --> 2:54:29.240 nazis eventually UM. And it's also it is it is 2:54:29.320 --> 2:54:33.360 a concerted effort on the part of people pushing their ideology, 2:54:34.160 --> 2:54:37.560 who will go in the comments of these giant channels 2:54:37.600 --> 2:54:43.160 and say, hey, check out my channel. Um, what's not 2:54:43.280 --> 2:54:46.760 a real one? You know Aaryan cooking which is probably 2:54:46.800 --> 2:54:50.800 a channel but probably is great job check sorry, but 2:54:51.959 --> 2:54:54.640 check out check out, check out, check out this or whatever. 2:54:54.840 --> 2:54:58.680 And and especially when q and on moved on a 2:54:58.800 --> 2:55:02.760 lot of promoters, it was awful. Um, there there was 2:55:02.959 --> 2:55:06.800 organized groups of of internet neo Nazis going on and 2:55:06.879 --> 2:55:11.760 trying to pill boomers into neo Nazism. And because of 2:55:11.879 --> 2:55:14.600 the because of the mesh like network of Telegram, they 2:55:14.680 --> 2:55:18.520 try to make those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can. 2:55:18.680 --> 2:55:20.800 You know, people who are dedicated to these more esoteric 2:55:20.840 --> 2:55:24.920 groups can join more regular like MARKA groups or qut 2:55:25.000 --> 2:55:28.720 on groups and start slowly bringing links to the start 2:55:28.800 --> 2:55:32.480 doing links and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um. 2:55:32.879 --> 2:55:35.360 And eventually yeah, that does that does work. It can 2:55:35.400 --> 2:55:38.040 be a slow, careful process um, or it can be 2:55:38.240 --> 2:55:43.320 very fast and like bombastic. And it'll depending on the person. 2:55:43.480 --> 2:55:45.480 One of them will latch onto one, one will watch 2:55:45.560 --> 2:55:50.440 onto the other. Yeah. And and before the article came out, UM, 2:55:50.520 --> 2:55:54.600 what I did see was the specific thing of accounts 2:55:54.640 --> 2:55:57.520 that I would associate or or believe to be neo 2:55:57.600 --> 2:56:01.520 Nazi um encouraging people to join their groups and channels 2:56:02.080 --> 2:56:05.400 UM in the in the telegram group message as well. 2:56:06.600 --> 2:56:08.320 And I cannot speak to what that looks like right 2:56:08.400 --> 2:56:12.160 now after the article has come out, yeah, and I've 2:56:12.440 --> 2:56:14.880 been trying to take a break from telegram for my 2:56:15.000 --> 2:56:18.360 day to day life, um and focus on reading actual books. 2:56:18.600 --> 2:56:21.360 So but yeah, that is I can always tell when 2:56:21.440 --> 2:56:24.000 one of us has been spending time on telegram because 2:56:25.160 --> 2:56:31.120 the things we consider jokes get much worse. Yeah. You 2:56:31.160 --> 2:56:36.360 remember when I found that playlist of Blinks covers. It 2:56:36.480 --> 2:56:39.520 was what there was like a hundred of them or 2:56:39.520 --> 2:56:46.320 some full. Yeah, you always find you could, You could 2:56:46.360 --> 2:56:49.080 find the most fucked up stuff. Don't don't do it. 2:56:49.280 --> 2:56:52.400 Don't don't scroll untilsolutely do not. You're not going to 2:56:52.480 --> 2:56:54.879 get this isn't like covering the same you don't need 2:56:54.920 --> 2:56:58.640 to be It's it's not even it's not worth it, 2:56:58.800 --> 2:57:02.320 Like there's no sacred novel like knowledge that we're hiding. 2:57:02.800 --> 2:57:05.400 It's just it's it's just kind of sucks, like it 2:57:05.560 --> 2:57:08.040 just like it just to feel bad. Yeah, it just 2:57:08.200 --> 2:57:12.040 makes you feel worse about life and yourself and the 2:57:12.120 --> 2:57:15.560 people around you. So the scope for your master's project 2:57:15.640 --> 2:57:17.520 what it's kind of the what's the what's the deal 2:57:17.600 --> 2:57:22.760 with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah. So, 2:57:22.920 --> 2:57:25.520 so using this social network analysis to argue that the 2:57:25.640 --> 2:57:31.560 telegram does function as this cultic milieu. Um. Which yeah, 2:57:31.800 --> 2:57:36.720 that seems which seems to be the case. Yeah. Um, 2:57:37.640 --> 2:57:39.840 you know, and the question gets into what is the 2:57:39.879 --> 2:57:43.640 responsibility the platform? Right? Um? Because I fully believe there 2:57:43.720 --> 2:57:49.120 should be something at least similar to this. It has 2:57:49.200 --> 2:57:51.920 been used for you know, purposes the longe with my politics, 2:57:52.000 --> 2:57:57.440 in which I would call good and needed. Um. However, 2:57:57.560 --> 2:58:02.520 they've also allowed this fucking awful system to spread. It's 2:58:02.560 --> 2:58:04.720 it's interesting to see when telegram has had to step 2:58:04.800 --> 2:58:07.440 in and they you know, they have pulled down some ices, 2:58:07.480 --> 2:58:13.480 accounts and channels. Um. And and they have down when 2:58:13.520 --> 2:58:16.040 I was in um Al Hall, which is that the 2:58:16.080 --> 2:58:18.280 camp where all the ISIS prisoners were in Syria, Like 2:58:18.440 --> 2:58:20.560 while Jake and I were in the camp, we could 2:58:20.640 --> 2:58:24.400 see on telegram like ISIS supporters and al hole talking 2:58:24.440 --> 2:58:28.520 about stabbing guards like in real time. It was not 2:58:29.120 --> 2:58:33.400 particularly Uh. They've done like a lot. There's less of 2:58:33.440 --> 2:58:35.000 it than there used to be, but it is still 2:58:35.080 --> 2:58:37.680 not hard to find ices on telegram. Yeah. And they 2:58:37.840 --> 2:58:42.760 they've taken down a few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um. 2:58:42.840 --> 2:58:46.280 It's it's funny because oh God, maybe cut this. But 2:58:46.840 --> 2:58:48.680 they've taken on some of the nasty channels when they've 2:58:48.680 --> 2:58:52.680 shared iceis Ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think we're 2:58:53.000 --> 2:58:55.560 we've were familiar with that line of thing. That's something 2:58:55.600 --> 2:59:00.120 we've mentioned before. There has been pressure from from the 2:59:00.200 --> 2:59:02.800 play Store and Google as well, or the play Store 2:59:02.840 --> 2:59:06.320 from Google and and the app store Apple App Store 2:59:06.800 --> 2:59:09.920 from Apple to say we we aren't going to carry 2:59:09.959 --> 2:59:13.800 the app if you don't do just a tiny bit 2:59:13.879 --> 2:59:18.560 better essentially UM which which which also it exists as 2:59:18.640 --> 2:59:21.480 a web client, UM, both as as a web client 2:59:21.640 --> 2:59:24.800 and as a desktop app as well. UM. But that 2:59:24.879 --> 2:59:28.680 would you know, limit some of it um. So, So 2:59:28.800 --> 2:59:32.720 this has become largely discussed in the German in the 2:59:32.760 --> 2:59:36.320 German Parliament because there's a new UM, there's a new 2:59:36.360 --> 2:59:39.760 government in Germany, and and there is this history of 2:59:41.000 --> 2:59:46.879 Germany kind of is the lead for doing things about 2:59:46.920 --> 2:59:51.120 this digital content, especially within the EU. And and as 2:59:51.200 --> 2:59:54.119 I mentioned, there's already alawcal adopt Enforcement Act that requires 2:59:55.160 --> 2:59:58.200 platforms to take down content in Germany. UM that could 2:59:58.240 --> 3:00:03.280 be implemented on telegram as well. There's already a law. Yeah, 3:00:03.440 --> 3:00:06.880 I mean, this is like the thing why you know 3:00:07.080 --> 3:00:09.760 what I watch happen lots is you know these channels 3:00:09.760 --> 3:00:11.480 will get shut down and they'll make a new one, 3:00:11.560 --> 3:00:12.960 and it will shut down that one and make a 3:00:13.000 --> 3:00:14.600 new one. Right. It's this you see this with like 3:00:14.680 --> 3:00:18.760 discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of this endless cycle. Um. 3:00:19.240 --> 3:00:22.200 And seeking an end to the cycle is always not 3:00:22.400 --> 3:00:26.440 as easy as what one would hope, UM, because of 3:00:26.600 --> 3:00:29.920 the cyclical nature of building these platforms and connections and 3:00:30.040 --> 3:00:32.240 how the people who run these you know, intersect and 3:00:32.280 --> 3:00:34.920 specifically with with telegrams really easy because the channel gets 3:00:34.920 --> 3:00:37.279 shut down, you're still part of twelve of their channels, 3:00:37.280 --> 3:00:39.000 and odds are one of those channels is going to 3:00:39.000 --> 3:00:40.800 afford you the link to the new channel that was 3:00:40.959 --> 3:00:43.160 that was lost. Yeah, And this is the thing you 3:00:43.200 --> 3:00:47.199 see where they send lists of channels within within extremest 3:00:47.200 --> 3:00:48.560 groups and channels, they will send out a list of 3:00:48.600 --> 3:00:52.280 here's other groups and channels to check out as well. Yeah, 3:00:52.400 --> 3:00:54.800 but I mean I would So that's something that's you know, 3:00:54.959 --> 3:00:57.640 hard for regular people to actually do. But something I 3:00:57.720 --> 3:01:00.720 think that people who do not own the platforms nor 3:01:00.840 --> 3:01:06.320 lawmakers can't think about is particularly the the cultic milieu 3:01:06.560 --> 3:01:09.840 that does you know, go past regular left right divisions 3:01:10.120 --> 3:01:13.200 in terms of politics and how you know, symbol like 3:01:13.400 --> 3:01:18.440 symbology um and stuff that was you know initially, you know, 3:01:18.840 --> 3:01:22.480 perhaps more anarchist or or left wing is being used 3:01:22.600 --> 3:01:25.440 by people on the right, and some people are really 3:01:25.440 --> 3:01:27.760 confused by that, and there is ways to there is 3:01:27.760 --> 3:01:29.560 ways to understand it, like it is. It does. I 3:01:30.040 --> 3:01:32.280 am very frustrated when I look at you know, people 3:01:32.320 --> 3:01:36.920 online who don't understand why Nazis can use ted K 3:01:37.680 --> 3:01:40.280 and right, it's like, yeah, like it's it's not it's 3:01:40.280 --> 3:01:41.560 it's not it's not not not what It's not not 3:01:41.600 --> 3:01:44.800 really about what ted K actually wrote. It's more the 3:01:45.320 --> 3:01:49.120 symbolic meme of ted K and trying to you know, 3:01:49.240 --> 3:01:51.760 get that, get that line of thinking across is not 3:01:51.840 --> 3:01:53.560 the easiest thing because sometimes it will go in the 3:01:53.600 --> 3:01:55.680 other direction and be like, oh ted K is a Nazi, 3:01:55.800 --> 3:01:58.120 which isn't accurate either, Like that's that's not also the 3:01:58.200 --> 3:02:01.840 most accurate thing to say. So it's it's the cultivalu 3:02:02.000 --> 3:02:05.040 framework of being. Yeah, sometimes these symbols can cross over 3:02:05.080 --> 3:02:07.640 from one thing to another, and sometimes the action can 3:02:07.680 --> 3:02:10.879 be the same. You know, both anarchists and like instructionary 3:02:10.920 --> 3:02:14.480 fascists both want to like attack, like industrialization and attack 3:02:14.560 --> 3:02:17.880 points of industry, right, but maybe their ideologies are slightly different, 3:02:18.080 --> 3:02:21.640 sometimes in specific ways, so it's always a tricky thing 3:02:21.680 --> 3:02:25.280 to kind of navigate. UM. So I think in terms 3:02:25.320 --> 3:02:27.960 of you know, people should think about what symbols they promote, 3:02:28.560 --> 3:02:31.000 uh like publicly and stuff is a good thing, and 3:02:31.240 --> 3:02:36.040 think about news aggregation and how to maybe not not 3:02:36.320 --> 3:02:39.720 just share something because it's countercultural trying to figure out 3:02:39.879 --> 3:02:43.279 what other what other types of narratives the sources spreading 3:02:43.920 --> 3:02:47.760 UM support the work of real journalists because a bunch 3:02:47.760 --> 3:02:50.480 of kick asks people out there um who are doing 3:02:50.480 --> 3:02:54.960 awesome research and work. So I think that kind of 3:02:55.040 --> 3:02:56.600 wraps up the scope of what I want to talk 3:02:56.640 --> 3:02:59.880 about around disclose specifically because I mean, discloses a thing. 3:03:00.240 --> 3:03:02.240 But it's also like it's good as just like an 3:03:02.280 --> 3:03:06.840 example to like this over this broader like phenomenon, I think, UM, 3:03:07.040 --> 3:03:10.240 because like disclose won't be here forever hopefully like you know, 3:03:10.360 --> 3:03:12.200 hopefully in a few years. It's something that we can 3:03:12.240 --> 3:03:15.240 just like look back on and laugh about. Um. But 3:03:15.560 --> 3:03:17.880 it's you know, it's still a good signifier for a 3:03:17.920 --> 3:03:21.160 phenomenon that happens, and the phenomenon even even if disclose 3:03:21.200 --> 3:03:23.760 goes away, the phenomenon is still going to stay, um, 3:03:23.840 --> 3:03:26.000 and it's important to point it out when you see 3:03:26.080 --> 3:03:29.080 whatever the next version of this is. So, And I'll 3:03:29.120 --> 3:03:32.879 also say that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right. 3:03:33.320 --> 3:03:35.600 This is you know where where the stuff that is 3:03:35.640 --> 3:03:40.440 rejected by the Orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any 3:03:40.520 --> 3:03:42.640 kind of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the 3:03:42.680 --> 3:03:45.680 fucking same and falls in line with orthox belief, which 3:03:45.680 --> 3:03:48.880 I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there is 3:03:48.920 --> 3:03:53.920 a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist. 3:03:54.920 --> 3:03:59.520 I would say responsibility in which you were consuming and sharing. Yeah, 3:03:59.560 --> 3:04:01.240 it's that, I would say, like most people who are 3:04:01.280 --> 3:04:05.320 actually counterculture are Yeah, like actual punk is is that 3:04:05.600 --> 3:04:09.080 you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical of viewpoints that 3:04:09.800 --> 3:04:12.800 that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing into what 3:04:12.879 --> 3:04:18.640 the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary. Pistols 3:04:18.680 --> 3:04:23.280 would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But I 3:04:23.400 --> 3:04:25.520 think we can all agree that having living members of 3:04:25.560 --> 3:04:28.480 the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would I 3:04:28.600 --> 3:04:31.880 prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway, So 3:04:32.480 --> 3:04:37.000 hey who cares? UM? So thank you for your work, Thomas. UM. 3:04:37.240 --> 3:04:40.400 I would recommend people reach your article, UM, which you 3:04:40.480 --> 3:04:44.320 can do by googling disclosed TV. Now it will be 3:04:44.720 --> 3:04:46.360 for me. It's the second result that pops up, so 3:04:46.440 --> 3:04:49.320 that school, UM send it to all your friends and 3:04:49.480 --> 3:04:52.039 mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can find 3:04:52.080 --> 3:04:55.240 it on logically dot Ai is the website and the 3:04:55.320 --> 3:04:58.640 full title of the article is disclosed TV conspiracy Forum 3:04:58.720 --> 3:05:02.840 turned disinformation fact Re. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM. 3:05:03.200 --> 3:05:05.320 Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account 3:05:05.360 --> 3:05:06.840 or do you want to be a ghost that fades 3:05:06.840 --> 3:05:10.039 away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird. 3:05:10.080 --> 3:05:14.760 You can find me on Twitter at w underscore Underscore Thomas, 3:05:14.840 --> 3:05:19.200 God damnit, Christ be weird? All right, I guess I'm 3:05:19.280 --> 3:05:24.600 keeping my account Lockford. UM. Yeah, I also want to 3:05:24.640 --> 3:05:28.000 shout out, UM, some of the local mutual aid or 3:05:28.120 --> 3:05:30.200 one of the local mutual aid groups in the town 3:05:30.240 --> 3:05:32.119 where I live or in the area where I lives. 3:05:32.400 --> 3:05:36.680 The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol 3:05:36.800 --> 3:05:38.840 a t L mutual fund and their venomos a t 3:05:39.000 --> 3:05:44.040 L Mutual Fund. They're helping out. Um they they've done weekly, 3:05:44.560 --> 3:05:49.039 UM weekly provided food and resources for people, and how's 3:05:49.080 --> 3:05:52.959 people living in downtown Atlanta. Um and are a great group. 3:05:53.360 --> 3:05:56.280 And then also people want to give more money to things. 3:05:56.360 --> 3:05:59.320 Shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund who have helped many of 3:05:59.400 --> 3:06:01.480 my friends it out of jail after they were arrested 3:06:01.520 --> 3:06:07.200 at protests. And also you can hire me, yes if 3:06:07.280 --> 3:06:10.600 you researchers, Yes you can. You can't. You can hire 3:06:10.680 --> 3:06:13.400 Thomas if you want. I mean, I've I've I've I've 3:06:13.480 --> 3:06:19.280 known Thomas for a bit. Um they do really good work. Um. Yeah, 3:06:19.360 --> 3:06:22.000 they're very They're very they're in my experience, they're very 3:06:22.040 --> 3:06:25.480 careful researcher. They will not say things without thinking about 3:06:25.520 --> 3:06:28.240 them a lot first, which is always great in a researcher, 3:06:29.520 --> 3:06:33.960 or at least not send them money and off putting comments. 3:06:34.160 --> 3:06:37.720 An even mix of money and really off putting Twitter comments. 3:06:38.160 --> 3:06:39.720 One more shot out to my one more shot out 3:06:39.760 --> 3:06:41.840 to my friends at Terroorism Bad Pod, which you should 3:06:41.879 --> 3:06:44.640 listen to and is on Twitter at Terrorism Bad Pod. 3:06:46.200 --> 3:06:48.720 Well that does it for us today. If you, for 3:06:48.840 --> 3:06:51.160 some reason are on social media and you want to 3:06:51.200 --> 3:06:53.080 follow us. You can follow us at cool Zone Media 3:06:53.720 --> 3:06:56.960 or happen or happen here pod um. You can follow 3:06:57.200 --> 3:07:00.600 Robert Evans at I Write Okay, send him weirdly, do 3:07:00.760 --> 3:07:03.600 not do that, and you can send me weird messages 3:07:03.840 --> 3:07:09.520 at creepo time. All right, seem garrison pictures of salads 3:07:09.560 --> 3:07:12.520 that you make, and keep keep doing that for like 3:07:12.640 --> 3:07:15.160 five or six years, to the point that it actually 3:07:15.200 --> 3:07:17.280 becomes funny, because it's going to take a while. I'm 3:07:17.320 --> 3:07:19.520 just happy that people stop sending me deal porn. So 3:07:20.320 --> 3:07:25.320 that's honestly, that's a wind that one's on you though. Alright, 3:07:28.080 --> 3:07:43.160 good finde forbody. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more 3:07:43.240 --> 3:07:45.880 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 3:07:45.920 --> 3:07:48.680 the universe. It could Happen Here is a production of 3:07:48.720 --> 3:07:51.640 cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. 3:07:51.760 --> 3:07:54.200 Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:07:54.280 --> 3:07:56.560 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:07:56.680 --> 3:07:59.640 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:07:59.680 --> 3:08:02.480 for to Happen Here updated monthly at cool zone Media 3:08:02.600 --> 3:08:05.000 dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.