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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. What's meta my verse? This

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Speaker 1: is it could happen here a podcast entirely dedicated to

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Speaker 1: the metaverse um, which is the promise of the human future.

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Speaker 1: Um on with me as always is my co host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg. I don't I don't know how talks. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure how. I don't know who the voice you

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Speaker 1: were doing, I guess he sounds like nothing like no

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Speaker 1: one but the absence of a soul when it's dial up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's what's going on inside his head in any moment

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Speaker 1: when he's not actively making the Internet worse. It's just

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Speaker 1: a dial tone in there. Awesome, Garrison, what are we

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Speaker 1: talking about today? Well, yeah, we're gonna be talking about

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Speaker 1: the metaverse and how how it's different from what people

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Speaker 1: talk about it as and yeah, it's it's gonna be, it's,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna it's gonna touch on a variety of things,

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Speaker 1: split up into two parts. Um, but first I would

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Speaker 1: like to paint you a picture with words, a word picture.

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Speaker 1: So you're a wickture. Yeah, You're walking walking through your

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Speaker 1: favorite grocery store. There's you know, cards passing by, horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible music playing. It's the lighting is white and and

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Speaker 1: like overexposed and under exposed at the same time. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard, it's hard to see. And this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this like a person who looks like an employee keeps

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Speaker 1: keeps popping up and trying to take you to different

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Speaker 1: sections of the store. You're trying to just ignore her.

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Speaker 1: It's very annoying. All you need to get is the

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Speaker 1: stuff you have on a little list, and it's it's awful. Um.

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Speaker 1: Eventually you get so fed up with this whole experience

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Speaker 1: that you take out, You go to where the wine

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Speaker 1: bottles are, You take them out and you arrange them

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Speaker 1: into a giant penis on the floor, because that's the

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Speaker 1: only thing you can do because you're not actually in

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Speaker 1: a store. You're in your living room, and you have

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Speaker 1: a horrible headset on, and you're trying to do shopping

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Speaker 1: in a virtual in a virtual grocery store. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that's that's the actual kind of scope of what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about today is virtual marketplaces and how

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Speaker 1: they interact with seemingly real marketplaces. Yeah, I'm sure this

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Speaker 1: is inspired by there were a couple of videos that

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Speaker 1: dropped recently, one of them from I think Walmart. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking, We're gonna be We're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about it. So yeah, So a couple a couple of

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Speaker 1: days after New Year of It, you went viral across

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Speaker 1: the social media's ranking, up over like eleven million views

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Speaker 1: on Twitter um, and it was titled how Walmart envisions

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Speaker 1: shopping in the mold in in the metaverse. Now, So

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Speaker 1: what followed was like two minutes of an embarrassing like

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Speaker 1: VR jank, including like throwing around virtual gallons of milk

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Speaker 1: from your cart into a virtual fridge many many dunks

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Speaker 1: are made. Fun was had, But what few people probably

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Speaker 1: realized is that like this, actually this this wasn't a

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Speaker 1: Walmart metaverse test store. This was actually a five year

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Speaker 1: old tech demo from before non Neil Stevenson fans even

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Speaker 1: knew what the term metaverse meant. So a few years back,

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Speaker 1: a tech company called a Mutual Mobile partnered with Walmart

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Speaker 1: for a project set to quote reimagined retails virtual Reality. Now,

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Speaker 1: that sounds very fancy and important, but considering this was

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Speaker 1: five years ago and you're not hearing about it until now,

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Speaker 1: shows how impactful this thing actually was. The first stated

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Speaker 1: goal of the tech demo, according to the Mutual Mobile website,

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Speaker 1: was to impressed influencers at south By Southwest teen. So

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Speaker 1: you know, just like the so called metaverse is now,

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Speaker 1: this is largely a promotional project um and a way

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Speaker 1: to attract investors. This was this was never actually a

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Speaker 1: serious thing. It's I'm gonna say it right now. South

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Speaker 1: By Southwest was always one of the stupidest things in

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Speaker 1: the world. Um. And when it comes back, it will

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Speaker 1: be still because it's stupid. It's a stupid place for

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Speaker 1: the most insufferable people in the world to come and

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Speaker 1: talk about technology. Some people also listen to music, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: so yeah. For For the For the experience itself, they

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Speaker 1: used an original Oculus rift and programmed roughly like four

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Speaker 1: minute linear um expedition into a barren, hellish digital Walmart

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Speaker 1: where you pick up and throw it did it did

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Speaker 1: sound exactly. My favorite thing about this video is they

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Speaker 1: were clearly using the audio of some sort of like

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Speaker 1: shooter game, because it was often like things would it

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Speaker 1: would sound like you were in like fucking doom going

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Speaker 1: through a portal. Extremely it was bad, like hell, you'll

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Speaker 1: you'll pick up and throw fake wine bottles into your

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Speaker 1: blue digital cart, and the whole thing ends with a

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Speaker 1: fake drone delivering an eight hundred dollar TV that you

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Speaker 1: fake purchased. It's it's not great. What Mutual Mobile and

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Speaker 1: Walmart were trying to do. They have a constatement on

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Speaker 1: their website back from it was they said that Walmart

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Speaker 1: envisioned unvailing a fully virtual shopping experience that puts shoppers

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Speaker 1: inside the store without ever leaving their homes. To attract

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Speaker 1: customers and to spell the misconception that they're not as

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Speaker 1: advanced as their more digital counterparts, brick and mortar establishments

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Speaker 1: are not only accelerating investments in areas like web and mobile,

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Speaker 1: they're also exploring the very edge of emerging technology. Walmart

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Speaker 1: of virtual reality is a case some point potential shoppers

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Speaker 1: can virtually pick up products, read labels, talk to virtual associates,

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Speaker 1: and fill their shopping carts. But the goal wasn't just

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Speaker 1: to create something interactive. Walmart needed something that showed the

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Speaker 1: potential of VR in retail while putting them ahead of

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Speaker 1: the competition. So I mean this was like this was

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Speaker 1: this was kind of ahead in some ways, but also

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Speaker 1: ahead in the ways that it's kind of showing how

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Speaker 1: not useful. This example is so obviously like this five

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Speaker 1: year old video resurface now due to Zuckerberg and Epic Games,

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Speaker 1: you know, forcing an AstroTurf metaverse into the cultural zeitgeist,

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Speaker 1: coupled with their you know, conflation of anything VR to

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Speaker 1: the legendary metaverse, right, because VR does not equal metaverse,

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Speaker 1: nor is it nor is it necessarily vice versa. But

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Speaker 1: now these terms are getting used so interchangeably that someone

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Speaker 1: can stumble across this video will be like, oh, look

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Speaker 1: at this metaverse store, when like, it's it's not it's

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Speaker 1: just a it's just a VR text. The metaverse in

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Speaker 1: order to be like the thing that people have been

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Speaker 1: imagining through cyberpunk since like the nineties, it needs to

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Speaker 1: be persistent and interact directly with the real world in

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Speaker 1: a number of ways, like it it's it's it's well,

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Speaker 1: we'll get into we'll get into kind of what metaverse

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Speaker 1: could be in the future in terms of like the

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Speaker 1: it could happen here idea, and then not just a metaverse,

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Speaker 1: but a series of metaverse is what they could be,

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Speaker 1: and how that kind of con negates the original idea

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Speaker 1: of it in the first place. But um, when asked

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Speaker 1: by Vice News about the resurgence of their Walmart project,

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Speaker 1: Mutual Mobile replied, the vision of a virtual shopping experience

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Speaker 1: we helped Walmart realize back in tween stands validated in

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Speaker 1: the metaverse era of today. This whole experience has only

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Speaker 1: encouraged us to keep experimenting, innovating, and leading the charge

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Speaker 1: with cutting edge tech. So I mean, considering most of

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Speaker 1: the virality of this was people joking about it, I yeah, sure, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: Mutual good good luck with that. So a few days

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Speaker 1: after the Walmart video went viral, rumors of another big

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Speaker 1: box store going metaverse started to circulate again, accompanied by

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Speaker 1: a video of a possible like three D metaverse storefront.

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Speaker 1: Reports emerged, starting in India claiming that H and M

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Speaker 1: had announced that it would offer its customers a three

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Speaker 1: dimensional shopping experience in its a virtual store inside the

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Speaker 1: metaverse via something called now. I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: keik City or seek City. Um, I'm not really comfortable

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Speaker 1: saying either of those things because they sound weird, but

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with Sik City. That's something.

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Speaker 1: It's a little bit better. I know, I know it's sound,

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Speaker 1: but it sounds like it's a slur. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say Seek, but it's it's see k um. So this

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Speaker 1: This account on on Twitter called us seek VR shared

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Speaker 1: the following from its official Twitter account, Shopping in the

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Speaker 1: Metaverse with seek coin. Concept VR store, presented to H

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Speaker 1: and M by Seek creates mainstream use cases for sek

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Speaker 1: coin and scaling virtual reality beyond games. So I'll get

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Speaker 1: into what seek is in a bit. But the report

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Speaker 1: said that customers would be able to walk through the

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Speaker 1: store choose the apparel they wanted to purchase in the

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Speaker 1: Sikh City universe. Um. Although the clothes could only be

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Speaker 1: a warn in the digital environment, payment would be made

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Speaker 1: with seek coin and customers could have the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: order the same apparel from H and m's physical stores later.

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Speaker 1: But that's you're buying two separate things. One of us

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Speaker 1: the digital skin, one of its an actual, you know,

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Speaker 1: real thing. Um so what a seek Zeek was launched

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Speaker 1: in eighteen. It's a metaverse coin pop project built on

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Speaker 1: the Ethereum blockchain and their their their goal is to

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Speaker 1: connect artists, athletes, and other digital content creators directly with

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Speaker 1: their fans and virtual worlds. Seeks n f T marketplaces

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Speaker 1: is designed to enable real ownership of the in which

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Speaker 1: I would actually want. That is, if it's me having

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Speaker 1: a very sexual zoom chat with Pitt. You know what,

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Speaker 1: we don't need to garrison, please continue, okay and quoting

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Speaker 1: from sisubside. Seek currently offers a range of immersive VR

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Speaker 1: experiences within Seek City, including theater, concert arenas, sports complex,

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Speaker 1: hang out lounge and more and all the things you

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Speaker 1: can do in your real home, but weird and on

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Speaker 1: the internet. This is horrible, and I see a potential

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Speaker 1: appeal for people who are like out in the sticks

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Speaker 1: or in parts of the world where they're not they

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Speaker 1: feel not like they're very politically or whatever disconnected, which

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Speaker 1: is the same thing the Internet already does. I'll talk

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Speaker 1: about it being in VR will make it better. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I've lived in the middle of nowhere and

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Speaker 1: relied on the Internet to be social, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think I would have wanted to change the Internet in

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Speaker 1: for this because it sounds yeah anyway, I'll talk about

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Speaker 1: use cases in a sec. But yeah, So end users

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Speaker 1: will be able to use seek token to make purchases,

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Speaker 1: vote for content control programming a much more after token launch,

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Speaker 1: seek VR, in partnership with Universal Music, can realize live

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Speaker 1: performances of world famous artists such as Bong Jovi, Lady Gaga,

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Speaker 1: You Too, Sting, and many more can take place on

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Speaker 1: this platform. So seek is like it's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: the startup, but it's been around for a while. It's

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Speaker 1: trying to do like you know, virtual venues inside the metaverse.

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Speaker 1: They they do have contracts with Universal so it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a mix of trying it's it's a mix of

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Speaker 1: this coin, so it's a mix of this like cryptocurrency,

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Speaker 1: also trying to use this cryptocurrency in this world. They're

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Speaker 1: trying to build up um there. Their their their roadmap

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Speaker 1: to metaverse right now. First thing is like payment integration,

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Speaker 1: so using sea coin, they want sea Coin to be

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Speaker 1: the coin for everything in the metaverse. They want all

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Speaker 1: of the metaverse be based off this thing that they

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Speaker 1: invented called sea coin because it will make them money. Um.

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Speaker 1: Next thing they want to do is create a creator

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Speaker 1: enabled ecosystem, so kind of copy the content creator thing

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Speaker 1: we have right now, poured that into the metaverse. But

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Speaker 1: again have everything. You know, you can invest in your

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Speaker 1: creators so you can vote on what they do using

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Speaker 1: sea coins and all of we talk about like the

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Speaker 1: personal ownership in the previous episode. But then a lot

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Speaker 1: of it, you know, they have like an n FT marketplace,

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Speaker 1: Avatar marketplaces, etcetera, etcetera. But a lot of this stuff

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Speaker 1: is built around like concerts, you know, venues, you know,

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Speaker 1: a lounge, movie theaters where you can do stuff in VR.

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Speaker 1: That is like that is the main the main thing

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Speaker 1: that Seek is trying to do. They do have this

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Speaker 1: one one quote somewhere, oh yeah, the future milestone. So

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Speaker 1: after they achieve this Seek metaverse where everything is ran

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Speaker 1: through Seek, all of like you know what, whether you're

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Speaker 1: on Oculus, whether you're on Vibe, all of it gets

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Speaker 1: run through Seeks. It's one one multiverse, sorry, one metaverse.

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Speaker 1: Their their future milestones are quote a VR Space Academy.

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Speaker 1: They do not do not say what that means, um

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Speaker 1: KIEK Studios again kind of unclear. I'm guessing like original content.

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Speaker 1: And then the last one is a blockchain metaverse alliance.

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Speaker 1: Those are their those are their three big future milestones

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Speaker 1: after they get there there. What was that last one?

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Speaker 1: Blockchain metaverse alliance? I mean, this was like in the

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Speaker 1: Facebook thing to write the idea that we're going to

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Speaker 1: integrate n f t S. But it was also clearly

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Speaker 1: just like they tossed that in there on the Facebook one,

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Speaker 1: there was no evidence they thought seriously about n f

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Speaker 1: t S or blockchain. It was just had gotten big

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Speaker 1: while they were preparing the things, so they tossed them

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Speaker 1: in there. Um, I I get the idea, right, Like

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Speaker 1: the thing that they keep pitching with this is that

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Speaker 1: you'll be able to have an item in one game

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Speaker 1: that is yours. The company doesn't own it, you can

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Speaker 1: take it to other games, which anyone who makes games

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Speaker 1: will tell you was fucking nonsense. It's something like that

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Speaker 1: might be vaguely possible in a metaverse where everything was

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Speaker 1: forced to use the same engine. Um and all everyone

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Speaker 1: was also forced to abide by a bunch of strict

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Speaker 1: rules by Facebook. Um. That Also, that's probably violating antitrust laws. Um.

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Speaker 1: And also it seems like a ridicul ulously Sysiphisian task

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Speaker 1: with no real benefit. I don't think anyone's going to

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Speaker 1: do it, but I'm guessing that's what they're referring to

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Speaker 1: when they want to jam the blockchain up in the

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Speaker 1: fucking metaverse? Like what else could it be? The blockchain

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Speaker 1: Metaverse Alliance, all of the blockchains the metaverse is gonna

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Speaker 1: aligned into. Yeah, like they don't want to put all

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Speaker 1: of the metaverse stuff. You want to wear this shirt

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Speaker 1: in the metaverse. So, just like the real world, the freedom,

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Speaker 1: the freedom of the internet catch you feel. It's the

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Speaker 1: ever expanding possibilities. I do love because they keep talking

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Speaker 1: about within the context of metaverse games like you'll get

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Speaker 1: to unlock a character that's just yours and nobody else

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Speaker 1: can play it, and they'll have special abilities that means

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Speaker 1: he wins all the time. It's like, why would people

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Speaker 1: play that game? I think it was Business Insiders someone's

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Speaker 1: article talking about how neat it would be for games

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Speaker 1: to work this way, and like, think of all the

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Speaker 1: money you'd make people wanting to watch your character wins.

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Speaker 1: People don't want to just like watch a guy who's

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Speaker 1: structurally unable to lose because he he bought the right

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Speaker 1: character in a racing game win every race. That's not

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Speaker 1: No one's going to pay to watch that. Do you

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Speaker 1: understand what people watch races for? Like now anyway, well,

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Speaker 1: let's hear from our good friends at our products and

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Speaker 1: services before we come back and talk more about seek coins.

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Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. All right, we are back,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, zee coins virtual reality spaces run on smart

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Speaker 1: contracts through the through the Bayans smart chain and there

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Speaker 1: there there run the run through the Ethereum blockchain. UM.

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Speaker 1: So the the there's about seven and seven forty four

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Speaker 1: millions seek coins and supply. The maximum supply capacity is

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Speaker 1: capped at one billion coins. Uh Sea coins peaked at

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Speaker 1: one one dollar and sixteen cents a year ago after

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Speaker 1: launching and around four cents um. They're currently being traded

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Speaker 1: for around sixty cents. So that's that's what actual sequens doing.

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Speaker 1: Like like like people do use this's not many people

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Speaker 1: like they they do have these contracts with with with

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Speaker 1: Universal Music UM. But before this h and m thing,

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Speaker 1: I I never heard of Seek coins. Um. So, two

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Speaker 1: days after the rumors began circulating that H and M was,

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Speaker 1: you know, partnering with Seek, H and M said Nope,

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Speaker 1: we did not, we are we are not doing this,

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Speaker 1: but they did not close the door in future possibilities.

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Speaker 1: They said, uh, we we we like to we'd like

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Speaker 1: to confirm that H and M is not is not

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Speaker 1: opening a store in the metaverse at this time. We're

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Speaker 1: also not collaborating with Seek. So the official Twitter account

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Speaker 1: for Seek subsequently clarified later on that the store that

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Speaker 1: they were doing was just a concept that was presented

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Speaker 1: to H and M and not a not a launching

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Speaker 1: virtual store yet. Um. But they do they do say

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Speaker 1: that they're in discussions with H and M to make

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Speaker 1: this a reality, but it's not a reality as of now.

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Speaker 1: So this this kind of begs the question like, what

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Speaker 1: about a three D digital space is superior to a

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Speaker 1: two D digital space for simple tasks like shopping online.

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Speaker 1: So once you start, you know, unfolding questions like this

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Speaker 1: about the Internet metaverse a r VR, you there are

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Speaker 1: more the conternal sides to this than you would have

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Speaker 1: initially estimated. Um. But first off, before we kind of

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Speaker 1: have this discussion, we should split this into two categories.

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Speaker 1: One for shopping for like real physical items that you

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Speaker 1: plan on like receiving in person, and then digital items

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Speaker 1: that don't physically exist and are just just on your

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Speaker 1: computer and monitor. So obviously, like there's no clear advantage

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Speaker 1: in most cases to traversing an isolated virtual environment in

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Speaker 1: order to order food as opposed to just scrolling through

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Speaker 1: a web page. Um, but once you expand out of

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Speaker 1: the confines of VRS sensory deprivation three three D technology

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Speaker 1: in a r SO augmented reality does actually have some

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Speaker 1: useful prospects, including some that are already in use. Um.

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Speaker 1: Amazon and Ikea, for example, will have options on their

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Speaker 1: perspective websites and apps that can like project furniture options

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Speaker 1: into your living space, so you can that's the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that has some future. I think. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it is currently this is being done on your phone screen,

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Speaker 1: but in a R glasses application of this actually serve

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Speaker 1: its purpose quite well because something something that people would want. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the phone screen version is pretty mediocre and these are

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of the thing the place where at

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Speaker 1: I we make fun of this stuff a lot because

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Speaker 1: most of its nonsense. There are there are really there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of potential in some of these ideas, but

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Speaker 1: there's their potential for like and the same level that

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Speaker 1: the air fryer has potential where it's like a thing

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people will buy, but it's not. None

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Speaker 1: of this yet is stuff that's going to completely change.

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Speaker 1: Like you might get a few million people to to

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Speaker 1: get these glasses and or this app made these classes

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Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons, but who would use this

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Speaker 1: this app to like help plan out how they're setting

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Speaker 1: up their houses. You might get a few million people

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Speaker 1: who do that. It's not going to be like an

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Speaker 1: iPod or an iPhone or or like Facebook that no

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Speaker 1: one's had figured that out yet. There's there's some neat

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Speaker 1: products that are going to be valuable, but we're still

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Speaker 1: on the stage where nobody's under nobody's figured out fundamentally

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Speaker 1: what people want from this, as opposed through like tiny

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Speaker 1: specific needs in the same way that like there was

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Speaker 1: a number of futurists who quite add accurately figured out

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Speaker 1: with a smartphone, like, oh, people want a thing that

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Speaker 1: will give them access to all of the knowledge and

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Speaker 1: ideas in the world and also let them yell at

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Speaker 1: anybody anytime they want. Like, that's something that is going

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly successful, and it has and it's changed

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Speaker 1: the entire world. Zuckerberg was like, people want to be

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Speaker 1: able to be racist faster, and by god, we wanted

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Speaker 1: it and and that was huge. Um, I don't like

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Speaker 1: these are It's a good idea, like, yeah, let people

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Speaker 1: scope out how their room is gonna look when they're

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Speaker 1: shopping or whatever through a r But we haven't yet

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Speaker 1: hit that this is going to change the world, because

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Speaker 1: being slightly better at using Ikea will not change the world. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think as an avid air fry air hater, I

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Speaker 1: do think comparing metaverse to the air fryer is actually

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Speaker 1: which I love to say to Garrison. I know Garrison

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Speaker 1: hates it when I use the air fryer. Fer mhm

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Speaker 1: anti air frier action is my new tattoo. They screech

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Speaker 1: like the person at the end of Invasion of the Body.

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Speaker 1: But my goodness, do they cook my food faster? Fried

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Speaker 1: it with the air Wow? Almost like it's impossible anyway. Um.

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Speaker 1: Mutual Mobiles Digital Marketing shot Agis talked with Vice after

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Speaker 1: the Walrut video went viral, and he explained that like

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Speaker 1: the demo was made to show the potential of virtual

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Speaker 1: reality and shopping experiences that they can have for you know,

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Speaker 1: different people, UM, including its ability to connect like elderly

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Speaker 1: people or people with disabilities to a shopping experience from

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Speaker 1: the comfort of their own home, something that he thinks

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Speaker 1: might even be you know, attractive to people who have

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Speaker 1: been through several rounds of COVID quarantine. And I can

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Speaker 1: kind of understand this last argument. You know, during early quarantine,

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Speaker 1: I definitely used my VR headset more often than I

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Speaker 1: had before. UM and with our alienated capitalist world, I

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Speaker 1: can see the use of walking around a digital store

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Speaker 1: if you're stuck at home, um, due to something like

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Speaker 1: a plague, or if you know, if you have a

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Speaker 1: physical or mental reason that makes you know, going to

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Speaker 1: a story difficult. Because but like it's yes, this this

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Speaker 1: can help that. But also this is always very religed

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Speaker 1: on how these types of stores are set up and

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Speaker 1: how these stories like affect your brain. It's like a

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Speaker 1: big part of going to the grossery store and what

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Speaker 1: it's designed to do. Let's make it so that we're

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Speaker 1: not just following a shopping list. There's like a structured

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Speaker 1: joy of discovery. Everything about the design to the store

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Speaker 1: is to get you to buy things you didn't think

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Speaker 1: you needed before you walked in, and we're trained from

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Speaker 1: birth to like to find this process pleasurable. So in

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Speaker 1: that way, walking around a VR like wal Mart or

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Speaker 1: H and M might actually make some people happy despite

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Speaker 1: that being sad and dystopian if you stop and think

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00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 1: about it, right, like, because that's that's actually like it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a very capitalist thing, but it does make

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Speaker 1: us happy because that's that's what we've been trained to

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Speaker 1: do since we're babies. So that there's there is that

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00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: side of it for in terms of like, yeah, I

402
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: can see if I really don't want to leave the house,

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Speaker 1: but I want to get the experience of walking through

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Speaker 1: a place, maybe I will walk through a Target to

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Speaker 1: get groceries. I don't know as some people maybe it

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00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: might do that, but otherwise, you know, it's much It

407
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: is much simpler and easier to just scroll through a

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Speaker 1: two dy thing on a web page and and and

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Speaker 1: and do the things you need. That's the thing, Like

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I mean absolutely because I I when

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Speaker 1: I was making fun of one of these videos, somebody

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Speaker 1: like called it out as being ablest and was like

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Speaker 1: fixing all the use as this as for a disabled person,

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Speaker 1: if they can use this, they can use Amazon. And like,

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Speaker 1: as a person who sometimes I don't shop for groceries

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Speaker 1: at Amazon, but I've shop for groceries online. It's fine.

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Speaker 1: The it's it's everything it needs to be. You can

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Speaker 1: get your groceries online, and the metaverse is just going

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Speaker 1: to make it like weird and off putting and unnecessarily complicated,

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Speaker 1: because at the moment, I can get groceries with my

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Speaker 1: phone while I'm like jogging um or as I'm like

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00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: sitting in traffic, or like while I'm on a zoom

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00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: call listening to Garrison talk about the metaverse as opposed

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Speaker 1: to putting on a headset and like doing the same

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Speaker 1: thing basically as driving there, but more expensively. Anyway, are

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Speaker 1: you for shopping right now? I am ordering sevent cans

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00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: of ZeVA and forty pounds of raw beef, the normal

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00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: week's worth of food for me, And that's literally like

429
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: two days for him. See but Robert, you could be

430
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: doing this while wearing a bucket on your head and

431
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: walking around a fake store. I could wear a bucket

432
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: on my head to the real store. They can't stop me.

433
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: I usually wear a bathrobe. This is the first half.

434
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 1: For it's like, you know, buying actual physical items you

435
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: plan to receive in stores, you know, furniture. It's actually

436
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense. Uh food, It's a little bit iffy.

437
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: The only kind of consideration there is if people want

438
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: the mental effect of walking around a store, if they

439
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: find that pleasurable, then it's a thing. But you know,

440
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: it's way more efficient to just scroll through your phone.

441
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: Um As for the other side, buying virtual items, whether

442
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: they be you know, n f t s, video game

443
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: skins or super special exclusive VR hangout rooms, I don't

444
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: give a funk how this works. If you want to

445
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: walk around a VR vault about your VR art and

446
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: your VR clothes, knock yourself out. I buy Sonic the

447
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: Hedgehog games. We all have our weird things we do

448
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: that don't make any sense. Yeah, if that's if these

449
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: procery stores are just gonna be like the seven weirdest

450
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: people in the country Masturbannings. They buy wine and milk.

451
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: That's the thing, Robert I was when I was when

452
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: I was doing the digital picture. In the beginning, I

453
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: had two scenarios, one where you align the bottles into

454
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: a deck. The other one I was going to say,

455
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: you take off your pants and start masturbating, and I

456
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: decided not to do that one. So I'm happy that

457
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: because because yeah, that is the actual use case for this,

458
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: is that someone people are gonna be walking around these

459
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: fake walmarts just all cherking off. That's what's gonna happen there.

460
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,479
Speaker 1: They're gonna have this animation of a real, real female

461
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: employee of theirs who like pops up when you do

462
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: something you're not supposed to do and explain something to you.

463
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: And it's going to be impossible to remove initially, and

464
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: people are going to turn it into a whole weird,

465
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: horny thing, and like they will appear in all these circumstances,

466
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: it's gonna go it's going to be the only thing

467
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: that goes viral, Like it's gonna be the only thing

468
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: people remember five years later about the first of these

469
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: This is I'm I'm gonna start go back to this

470
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: towards the end of part two, but this is the

471
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: actual way to handle the metaverse, because we're gonna this

472
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: this thing is going to be forced on us one

473
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: way or another. We're gonna have a form of it,

474
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: and honestly, the best thing we can do with it

475
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: is either ignore it, ignore it, or maybe more attractively,

476
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: is to funk with it. Like that's gonna be the

477
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: thing that's gonna be the thing to do. There was

478
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: an article a few days ago that headline is Final

479
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: Fantasy porn interrupts Italian Senate zoom event. Someone someone joined

480
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: in and started playing poured from Final Fantasy seven, Like

481
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: this is to do. This is the way that we

482
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: need to do it. If there's gonna be dumbass like

483
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: meetings on the Zuckerberg metaverse, people need to go in

484
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: and make it weirdly horny. Yeah, Garrison, I could not

485
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: agree more that that's the what you need to do,

486
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: citizens of the Internet is look up something awful habo

487
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: h A B b O hotel. That's the kind of

488
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: ship that we need to be doing in fucking um

489
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: in in the there was basically a children's video game,

490
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: was an early kids MMO and a bunch of weird

491
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: adults and something Awful decided to create an unsettling cult

492
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: of people who all looked identical and marched around doing

493
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: all of these weird, unsettling things in a children's game.

494
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: It was very fun um like or or like in

495
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: a in second life when it was the new big

496
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: sexy thing there was. This was very self important tech writer,

497
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: investor type person who was doing a Q and A

498
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: and people just like animated thousands of floating penises going on.

499
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: This is this is gonna be the thing. This is

500
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: what you we're gonna have to do because in order

501
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: because if it's gonna be this horrible corporate hell, the

502
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 1: only way to do it. The only way to deal

503
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: with that is to make it unusable for everybody so

504
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: that so that it doesn't get used. And the way

505
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: to do that is by putting dicks everywhere. Dicks andwhere

506
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: ever decides to do a multiverse presentation, or if one

507
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: party or another has had decides to a multiverse debate,

508
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: it is everyone's moral responsibility, civic duty. This goes beyond

509
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: civic This is as a citizen of the human race.

510
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: You know, as a member of this species, you have

511
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: to try to find a way to suck it up

512
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: for them. Something could be more important. So yeah, so,

513
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: if if you're buying digital items, do you never plan everything,

514
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: even person I don't care how you do it. Knock

515
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: yourself out. We all have our weird things. I I

516
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: bisonic DLCs, people do World of Warcraft. If you want

517
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: to get of art piece, you can only hang in

518
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: your digital room. That sounds miserable, but have fun. I

519
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: I used the internet to order very off putting Danish

520
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: cheese product. Oh yeah, that did happen. That was off putting.

521
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: It was weird. It was like you tried to trick

522
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: yourself into liking it when you were eating it. Though

523
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: I we I don't remember not liking it because I

524
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: hate a good amount. But I've had the second cube

525
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: sitting around and I've had no desired open desired. Yeah, anyway,

526
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 1: so I did not like it. I just I don't

527
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: know that I ever want to eat it again. Quality

528
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: audio content. So here's the thing. I have not actually

529
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: been talking about the metaverse. Nothing I've mentioned thus far

530
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: actually is the metaverse and doesn't have really anything to

531
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: do with the metaverse besides the technology of a VR

532
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: and a R. You know. It turns out companies like Facebook, Epic, Microsoft,

533
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: Invalve the way they talk about the metaverse is kind

534
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,239
Speaker 1: of all a big lie, like the not metaverse, it's

535
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: a it's an astros turf top down marketing scheme to

536
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: turn more of you into data and to create and

537
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: to create vinyl marketing, like that's instant. Instead of an

538
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: interconnected solution to the alienated bubbles of Web two, it's

539
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: just a social media network that encompasses all of your

540
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: vision and encourages even more digital alienation and less in

541
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: person socialization. Kids, you know the worst stuff about the internet.

542
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: What if it was the only thing about the Internet.

543
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: What if it was encompanying everything you see instead of

544
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: just a computer screen. So all of the gaming CEOs

545
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: who were talking about the promise of n f T

546
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: s and like, I think it was the one of

547
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: the guys who runs read and I think it might

548
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: have been Alexis so haney in or whatever their name

549
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: is who said that, like in five years of games

550
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: will be n f T base because people don't like

551
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: wasting their time and not getting compensated for it, Like,

552
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: do you know what it games is? That's not what people.

553
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna talk more about metaverse as

554
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: big tech or just bigger tech in part two. But

555
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: this this this. This will be wrapping up part one

556
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: of the digital storefronts, and then we'll get into some

557
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: more kind of applications of this and how we're actually

558
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: seeing it in the second half. So, Robert, do you

559
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: wanna Do you want to go buy a virtual uh

560
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: block of Danish cheese? Um? No, I did. When I

561
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: was hanging out on top of the mountain the other day,

562
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: I ran into a guy flying some drones, which I

563
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: normally don't like. But this guy had a VR control

564
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: rig for his very nice drones that those are dope.

565
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: I might, I might get into that ship, uh, But no,

566
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: I have no desire to shop. I like going to

567
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: the grocery store. Um as I do as much of

568
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: my shopping that way as possible because it's soothing and

569
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: uh nice and I think very human to go be

570
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: around other people to get food. But yeah, that's the thing,

571
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: you know, and things like the pandemic where that it

572
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: comes harder. I think that is where the use cases

573
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: for the digital stores actually come in. Like theoretically, but

574
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: you've never you've never seen them that feelings which it

575
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: all just looks deeply off putting. It all. It's the

576
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: problem is that it's it's stuck. It's stuck in the

577
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: uncanny valley. So it's not pleasurable to be in those

578
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: digital spaces because you're even though it's being marketed as

579
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: a solution to alienation, it's just more alienating because it's

580
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: because it's it's like very clearly exposing the alienation that

581
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: we try to avoid. Um, So it falls right in

582
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: the middle of the uncanny valley and it's not pleasant.

583
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: But we we we we We will talk more about

584
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: that in part two. Um, if you want to follow

585
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: the show on the social media's that is Cools on

586
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: media and Happen here pod. It can keep up with

587
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: my tweets when I I don't know, I don't know

588
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: what I do on Twitter anymore. But that's hungry about

589
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: tie And you can harass Robert Evans at I read Okay,

590
00:31:53,120 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: that's the show. Do it? Do it? Are all kill him?

591
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, Welcome to the podcast where we talk about

592
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: the metaverse. I enjoy barbecue sauce And that was Mark Zuckerberg.

593
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: That was pretty good. That that is that is SNL worthy.

594
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Garrison, because it's because it's so bad. All right, Um, now,

595
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: that was that was my own big goal. This is

596
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: this is part two of the Metaverse that never was

597
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: UM here at it could happen here and we're actually

598
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: gonna be talking about like that. It couldn't wait until

599
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: we launched portions of the show and pretend we never

600
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: said all this ship. It's going to be the best garrison.

601
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: You know, Robert, Remember remember when I was talking about

602
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: um seek City and all of the virtual venues. I

603
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: just just I just got a message from our beloved

604
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: parent company, I Heart Media. We planned to extend UM

605
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: shows into the Metaverse, which was which was announced a

606
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: few weeks ago. But thought that the Metaverse was a

607
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: pretty good idea. I think we will talk about how

608
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: the Metaverse could be cool later in this episode, but

609
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: then we'll explain why it won't be. But yeah, I

610
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: heard Media did announce so web three in the Metaverse

611
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: and the newest consumer platforms for I Heart Media. So sorry,

612
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: I I was just working. It's it's working in a

613
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: matrix for reference there, So yes, I see what. Thank you?

614
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: Um Anyway, So I'm guessing for non Neil Stevenson fans,

615
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: many of you probably had not heard of the Metaverse

616
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: before last year. Um VR sure you've heard of VR

617
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: a R maybe, UM, but probably just as like niche

618
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: gaming technology, you know, not not this massive, not not

619
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: like a massive successor to the Internet. UM. Primarily three companies, Facebook,

620
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: Epic Games, and Valve uh, the later two being mostly

621
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: gaming and software companies. UM. Kind of all decided the

622
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: best way to push their niche VR and software technology

623
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: into the zeitgeist was with this flashy new marketing, and

624
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: it kind of worked. Metavers is now and many more

625
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: people's like personal lexicon, but it's not really the metaverse,

626
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: you know, like the Walmart thing. It's a way to

627
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: attract investors and drum up free press, but it's still

628
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: the same old VR and a R applications of the technology.

629
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: None of these companies are trying to make metaverse a

630
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: thing that we actually want or you know, working towards

631
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: an interconnected, immersive, three D open source successor to the Internet.

632
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: All of the different websites and services we use united

633
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: under one digital roof, like a super platform that you know,

634
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: is made up of all of these sub platforms. You

635
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: have social media, online gaming, and all of like the

636
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, ease of life apps, all accessible through the

637
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: same digital space under the same digital economy that that

638
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: thing isn't happening. People like that. That's not what people

639
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: with money are actually pushing towards, even though they're still

640
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: using the metaverse term. Yum. There was a great piece

641
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: in Wired that came out last month as a part

642
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: of their Matrix VR issue. UM. It was called the

643
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: metaverse is simply big tech but bigger. It was by

644
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: Cecilia di'antazio. It was so it's it's a wonderful piece,

645
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a quote

646
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: from it right here. Um. By the mid two thousands,

647
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: it became clear that money wasn't in building individual websites

648
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: that we could access on the open web. It was

649
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: making information sorders, channels, aggregators, and publishers, open enough to

650
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: scale with user generated content, but closed enough to reap

651
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: enormous profits. This was the evolution from Web one to

652
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: Web two. For nearly thirty years, the gravity of the

653
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: consolidation has pulled the cyberspace together. Under the US this

654
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: of fewer and fewer corporate titans, the freaky little planets

655
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: get drawn together, collide and make bigger planets, clide again

656
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: and make stars or even black holes. Facebook eats, Instagram,

657
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: and WhatsApp. Amazon swallows two dozen e commerce sites, and

658
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: you're left with these few supermassive players controlling and appropriating

659
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: the celestial motion of billions of users. This is how

660
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: big tech got big end quote. So yeah, like now

661
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: we have all of our isolated toolboxes, and they really

662
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: fight against any inter platform integration. You have you know,

663
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 1: Microsoft Office and they're they're like off their office suite.

664
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: You have like Google Workspace. You have Apple's own like

665
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: air Drop, Apple Pages and Final Cut Pro, plus the

666
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: the nightmare that is Adobe's subscription tools. Like Google wants

667
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: you to spend all day checking your Gmail, traveling with

668
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: Google Maps, watching videos on YouTube, and browsing on Chrome. Meanwhile,

669
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: your friend texts you via I Message, uses Apple Maps,

670
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: and calls his mom on face time. This is the

671
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: single person in the world uses Microsoft Edge. That is true,

672
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: But like this, this form of the Internet is the

673
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: one that the metaverse is growing out of. Metaverse is

674
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: just a way for tech companies to add VR and

675
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: a R and the accompanying extra surveillance and data collection

676
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: to this poor foot to like their own portfolio of

677
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: proprietary products in order that's happened. They need to convince

678
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: us that we need headsets for the next evolution of

679
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: the Internet. So it's not surprising that Facebook and Zuckerberg

680
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: were the first ones to crack this thing right open.

681
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: It's they own not only four of the top six

682
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: social media platforms, but also Oculus, which is the most

683
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: popular manufacturer of VR hardware. VR has been relegated to

684
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: niche gaming technology for like, basically two decades, and Zuckerberg

685
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: decided the best way to sell more of its headsets

686
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: and software was to give the tech a fresh new

687
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: paint job and call it Metaverse and like. It's sort

688
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 1: of working that there were approximately nine point four million

689
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: shipment severe headsets in two one three point six million

690
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: of which we're done during the holiday season after Facebook's

691
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: big Metaverse event. It's suspected that the Quest two, which

692
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: is made by Oculus, a Facebook um, makes up for

693
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: more than three quarters of all those headsets sold. So

694
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: the Democrat demographics data isn't explicitly available, but probably a

695
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: lot of kids received these things as holiday gifts um

696
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 1: Oculus Meta. Facebook does not release its VERR headset sales figures,

697
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: but the Oculus app that that you need to have

698
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: to make the headset work. Shot to the top spot

699
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: in Apple's App Store on Christmas Day. That was the

700
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: first time it's ever been in the number one app

701
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: on the App Store, so indicating a spike, and headsets

702
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: received as holiday gifts. So they're selling a lot of headsets,

703
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: like Oculus is is selling a lot of their things,

704
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: Like you know, I I got one a few years ago,

705
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: but you know, now there's there's there's more and more

706
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: of them circulating. Um. But you know this, it's still

707
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: all relegated to VR because I'm not actually metaverse. Arguably

708
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: the closest thing we have to the actual metaverse is

709
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: stuff like Roadblocks and Minecraft. Now that is still not

710
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: that's not immersive three D. It's you're still looking at

711
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: it through a two D screen, but it is software

712
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: that gives users development tools to create their own projects

713
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: within this shared three D space. What separates these things

714
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: and basically all attempts from making the metaverse from being

715
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: the ideal metaverse, is still the proprietary aspect. Everything is

716
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: isolated islands. You can't take your Roadblocks game into Minecraft, right,

717
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: it still is isolated to their specific things. But you know, Nevertheless,

718
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: robox Is CEO described the company as the shepherds of

719
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: the metaverse in early and he is kind of right, like,

720
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: that's not that's not totally inaccurate. Um, I'm gonna quote

721
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: again from the Wired piece by Cecilia di'antasio. Um, if

722
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: big text unchecked growth continues, there will be multiple versus,

723
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: if there are any at all, each will be interoperable

724
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: under one tech giants giant umbrella. The same way Apple

725
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: is both a walled garden and a convenient, habitable terrarium

726
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: for its dedicated consumers. Users love the seamlessness of Apple's

727
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: proprietary off porting system, the ambiguity of my message, and

728
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: Apple presumably loves the thirty commission it can charge on

729
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: developers who sell apps in their app store. So Epic

730
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: Games is the other big metaverse proponent right now, you

731
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: know they were. They were actually making announcements about metaverse

732
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: a few months before Facebook did um and the c

733
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: a l Epic Games. Tim sween Ley has been outspoken

734
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: against the metaverse ran by a big tech giant like Apple.

735
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: But that's not that's not really genuine because his version

736
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: of the metaverse Entails of Cyberspace made accessible through Fortnite

737
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: and Unreal Engine, two things owned by Epic Games. So like,

738
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: it's not like he's not actually sincere about creating an

739
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: open source thing. He just wants to be the one

740
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: to control it. He's just upset that he thinks someone

741
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 1: else might. Um. He tried to sue Apple last year

742
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: and and failed. UM, and the College Fornia judge told

743
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: him that Epic Games seeks a systematic change which would

744
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: result in a tremendous monetary gain and wealth. The lawsuit

745
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: is a mechanism to challenge the policies and practices of

746
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: Apple and Google, which are an impediment to Mr Sweeney's

747
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: vision of the oncoming metaverse. So it's not actually about

748
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: like him being against big tech giants and being against

749
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: a big tech giant Wren metaverse. It's just that he

750
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: doesn't like that he won't be able to make as

751
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 1: much money with it if multiple tech companies work together

752
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: to make it. Like that's that's that's really what he's

753
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: concerned about. He would rather be in control of this thing, um,

754
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: because like, yeah, it would be really interesting to see

755
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,760
Speaker 1: if multiple tech giants work together to create an actual

756
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: successor to the Internet, like an actual like you know

757
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: how the internet is just when you open up your

758
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: computer or and you have access to the net. It's

759
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: not it's it's not like running a specific program you

760
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: get to go in all the things. It would be

761
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: interesting if people actually work towards creating that, but no,

762
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: it's all about creating very isolated operating systems with a

763
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: very isolated tool like tool chest. Like you can't access

764
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: Steam games via the Oculus store. These things don't These

765
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: things don't work. Now you can Oculus. You can use

766
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: the Oculus on Steam games, but not vice versa. They're

767
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: making things the way they're making things because they're not

768
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: trying to design a new Internet because for one thing,

769
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: the Internet wasn't designed. It was like the result of

770
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who were doing things that interested them,

771
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: all kind of intersecting and building upon each other. And second,

772
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: like the they're they're not they're making individual profit tunnels.

773
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: They're not actually trying to create um. They're not trying

774
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: to like actually trying to think about what people might

775
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: want next, or what people might might want beyond the Internet.

776
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: They're thinking, how what can we sell that we're not

777
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: currently selling, and that's never going to be the thing

778
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: that figures out Yeah about Yeah. On on that point,

779
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do one final quote from the Wired piece. Um,

780
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: if if these companies dominating cyberspace did decide to collaborate simultaneously,

781
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 1: piecing together opposite sides of the quilt to create a

782
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: digital tech style, that would be very polite. But is

783
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: there a world in which Microsoft, Facebook, Epic Games, Apple,

784
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: uh Navidia, etcetera combine all of their valuable products captain

785
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: planet style into an architect of the metaverse under open

786
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: source standards? Nobody in particular roops billions from That's sort

787
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: of a tall task to overhaul your code and collaborate

788
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: with your competitors. Why would three or four tech giants

789
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: partner to make a metaverse when they already spent decades

790
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: and billions constructing one of their own. So yeah, it's

791
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: it's it's never gonna happen the way the way society

792
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 1: is made, the way internetworks, that's not ever going to

793
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: be a thing. Speaking of companies and things that you

794
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: can buy online and advertising, here's some ads and we're

795
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: back and we're gonna talk about possibly the most successful

796
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: version of air of of VR technology we're gona talk

797
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: about the actual use cases that are generating actual profit.

798
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: So there is a there was a tweet a few

799
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: days ago that I'm just gonna read the tweet and

800
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: then then we'll talk about the implications. Um. This one

801
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: very very viral. UM. I caught this very early on, though,

802
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 1: and I started writing about it, and then a whole

803
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: bunch of articles dropped on the topic. A farmer in

804
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: Turkey has fitted his cows with virtual reality goggles to

805
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: make them think they're outside in summer pastures. The farmer

806
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: found out that these pleasant scenes make the cows happier

807
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: and produce more milk. Futures metaverse, So we're gonna talk

808
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about the cow matricks. We're gonna talk

809
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: about the Yeah it is to go back in time

810
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: and tell people, hey, you know that hit movie The

811
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: Matrix in the future, We're going to do that, but

812
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: for more milk to get So the thing that went

813
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: viral about it that kind of broke the story for

814
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people was this farmer in Turkey with

815
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: the pictures of the cows with VR goggles on them.

816
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: Pretty pretty pretty fucked up. Um. But the idea and

817
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: the actual technology used came from came from Russia. UM

818
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: farmers worked together with developers, veterinarians and consultants at the

819
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: oh boy, here here's a Russian town name, or I

820
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: guess a farm name Kragskernof, I don't know. Yeah, thats right,

821
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: it's us that I think we can we can were we?

822
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: I think you nailed it. It's it's it's this farm

823
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: near Moscow. UM and they teamed up so all least

824
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: you know, farmers, developers and vets and consultants teamed up

825
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: to make this cow matrix project UM and there was

826
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: an official statement from the Moscow Ministry of Food and

827
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: Agriculture reads the global trend towards universal computerization. The significant

828
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: significantly simplifies work processes in many areas that and allows

829
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: you to achieve unprecedented results. Russian milk producers keep up

830
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: with world standards and are even ready to offer the

831
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: market new and unexpected solutions. On a farm in the

832
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: Moscow region, a prototype of virtual reality glasses were tested

833
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: to improve the conditions for keeping cows. Employees of one

834
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: of the largest farms in the Moscow region, together with

835
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: i T specialists, decided to conduct an experiment studying the

836
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: influence of virtual reality and developed a layout of VR glasses.

837
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 1: So the herd donned these VR systems adapted for the

838
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 1: heads of cows. Um so. And they also had to

839
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: they had to to to make the imagery work. They

840
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: need to tweak the color palette in the software to

841
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: make it suitable for the cow's vision, because cows can't

842
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 1: see rudder green, so there's just two shades of yellow

843
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: and blue. So in order to replicate what grass like

844
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: to them, they have to you know, change the stuff. Um.

845
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, and then they programmed a unique summer field

846
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 1: simulation program and subjected it onto these cows. Uh. The ministry,

847
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: the Russian Ministry of Our Culture concluded that the cow

848
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: matrix does work. UM. In a statement from a few

849
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: a few years ago, officials said environmental conditions have significant

850
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: have a significant impact on cow health and as a consequence,

851
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: the equality and quantity of milk produced. So, you know,

852
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: like this is the thing I I talked with, um,

853
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: someone I know about this, and they're like, well, if

854
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: it makes the cow like actually happier and healthier than like,

855
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: what's the problem. And like the problem is is that

856
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: like you're gas lighting and entire creature's reality. Like you're like,

857
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 1: you're you're you're like not consentually cassolighting their reality, and

858
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: I that is I don't like that. I don't eat

859
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: everything without their consent. So I it's one of those

860
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: things where it's like, but we're also not gaslighting their

861
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: reality and this like we're not depriving their senses of

862
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: what the world is. No, this seems like an escalation

863
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: in our war on the cow. Yeah, so you know

864
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: this other farmer in Turkey heard about this and decided

865
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,879
Speaker 1: to try it out on his cows. Um and yeah,

866
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: the fund up Cow Matrix or the cow Tricks does

867
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: seem to do its job extracting more milk from the

868
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: cow to increase profitability. Quote from quote from the farmer said, Uh,

869
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: we get an average twenty two liters of milk per

870
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: day from the cows in our farm. The milk average

871
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: of the two cows that wore the VR glasses went

872
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: up to twenty seven liters. So yeah, when when when

873
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 1: the story first broke there was the most popular article

874
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: was from a site called Futurism, which made made me

875
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: made me very depressive about about futurism of depressed about futurism. Garrison. Yeah,

876
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: it made me mad enough that I'm going to read

877
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: some of its to you. Thank god, I haven't been

878
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: angry in seconds. That cows produce more milk when VR

879
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: makes them think they're in beautiful green pastures proves that

880
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: keeping them in agriculture environments isn't healthy, nor does it

881
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: make them happy. Putting them in a cow matrix does

882
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: sound a little grim, yes, but you can't argue with

883
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: the results. Oh my god, I can't. I say, you

884
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: actually care if all this has shown is that, like potentially,

885
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: if you put cows in this thing during the winter,

886
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: when it's not sunny and bright outside, then they are happier.

887
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: This is not shown that, for example, taking all cows

888
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: out of pastures and sticking them in matrix boxes would

889
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: make them Yeah, because the thing is they're not they're

890
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: on pastures. They're in little jail cells with VR goggles

891
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: on their head. So like it's that that was that

892
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: was the use case, And like the quote from the farmers,

893
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: like they're watching green pasture and it gives them an

894
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: emotional boost. They are less stressed. Um and the farmers

895
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: that he plans to be plans to buy ten more.

896
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: It's like you can spend thousands of dollars on specialized

897
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: caw via headsets um or you can you know, like

898
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: use that money to buy more land for the cows

899
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: to spread out. And if we're at that point in

900
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: society that in order to make in order to in

901
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: order to make enough cow milk, we need to gaslight

902
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: cows by overruling their senses with a clunky of your

903
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: headset on their little fuzzy faces. Maybe we should start

904
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: having milk. Maybe we should like maybe that's it, Like

905
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: if we require this to have milk in our cereal,

906
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: then nope, no more, not not gonna. I'm not gonna

907
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: do that. I refuse. That's not like it's already And

908
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: if you practice, if you don't buy milk like like

909
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: locally from a farm, you know, so if we're doing this,

910
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: that just like immediately checks me out of every like no,

911
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: I'm just fully fully not. Yeah, I think that's kind

912
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: of evil. I think that's kind of evil. Like the

913
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: whole industry way by which we produce meat at scale

914
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: is pretty evil. But that's an escalation. It's it's the

915
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: specific thing of like of of of overruling the reality

916
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: and senses um of another living creature like that is

917
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 1: for some reason, for some reason, that just puts them

918
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: into a way in order for you to get like meat,

919
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: And that's just like turning them into food, but like

920
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: making their living really shitty and then making trying to

921
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: trick them to thinking they're not. Yeah, it's even worse

922
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: than just having them live in shitty conditions, I think

923
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: from an as standpoint, and maybe it's more pleasant for

924
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: the animal, but from like our standpoint, it's worse to me. Yep.

925
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 1: So speaking of uh, I don't know, don't Is there

926
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: some segway that we can work this in? You know

927
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: what does essentially force you to live in an alternate

928
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: reality that allows you to be more productive for the

929
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: people who make money based on your existence buying these

930
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: products and services that supporting this podcast. I was just

931
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: gonna say podcasts in general do that. But yes, cool,

932
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: All right, we are back and my last my last

933
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: big section here is titled we Are the Cows. So

934
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: this is that's gonna that's gonna give you a sense

935
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: of how of how we're going to talk about what

936
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: so what what? What the cow tricks really demonstrates though,

937
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: is that the end goal of all this is to

938
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 1: make us the cow right you know, we we and

939
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: we already are to some degree with like the Internet

940
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: and smart and smartphones. But this is more, this is

941
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: an escalation, right Like the people, the ghoules, that Silicon

942
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: Valley and you know, the whole tech world want. They

943
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: want a world where we are forced to down hardware

944
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: rigs that block out our body's senses and replace the

945
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: input with digital coded counterfeit. That's that's the Internet that

946
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: tries to convince you that you're inside of it and

947
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: it is inside of you. That that's that's that's that

948
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: is what they want. Really, Like, even if we get

949
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: the metaverse that I would prefer, you know, like the

950
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: mythical open source interconnect did successor to the Internet, with

951
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: all these different websites, tools and games that I like

952
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: all together and intuitively accessible through a share digital space.

953
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: Even if we get that, like, which we won't, and

954
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: if there's safeguards to protect digital privacy that are built in,

955
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: which there wouldn't be, that doesn't actually make the real

956
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: world much better. Like in my opinion, air technology specifically

957
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: could be really cool. Um, but but redesigning the world

958
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: to require headsets, goggles or air glasses would suck like now,

959
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,320
Speaker 1: would not only for people who can't get a technology

960
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: right if if we redesign the world to be like

961
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: the only way to interact with systems is through this

962
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: digital lens, that's gonna suck. We we now, we already

963
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: had that do some degree with smartphones and the internet,

964
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 1: but this is another escalation of it. And again, like

965
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: like the cow, it's just gonna be a way to

966
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: paint over our late capitalist climate disaster of a world.

967
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: Um metaverse is a tech capitalist solution to our current

968
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: and pressing political and ontological problems. And I have used

969
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 1: the bathroom really that well, I'll talk for a little while.

970
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: I think a big part of what Garrison is saying

971
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: is that instead of relying on these tech industry ghoules

972
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: to build the future for you, which is a future

973
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 1: in which they sell you away to hide from the

974
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: hell that they have made of the world and others

975
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: like them have made of the world, instead of doing that,

976
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: you've just spend the rest of your life listening to podcasts,

977
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: put put blinders on over your eyes, cover up all

978
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: of your senses, but your ears and just exist forever

979
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: in a concoon made entirely of my voice and occasionally

980
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: Garrison and Chris's and Sophie's voice, but mainly my voice.

981
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: And they're saying, not listen to just any podcast but

982
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 1: podcasts that you benefit from. I don't think people should

983
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: listen to any podcasts that I don't do. That doesn't

984
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: seem right. So where's my angle on that? Huh? I

985
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: don't know. Um, I don't know how long we should

986
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 1: vamp while Garrison just leaves in the middle. I really

987
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: need to, I really need to to see. Well, it's okay.

988
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: I just told everybody that we're the metaverse now, Garrison Archia.

989
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: I drank so much coffee this morning. It was a problem, okay.

990
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: In similar to all this, you know, remember the John

991
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 1: Carmike interview from Yes That's such a Bomber the Doom

992
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: co creator and former CTO of Ovoculus. Yes these bodies

993
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: are a curse John, Yeah, on the Journogon show. He

994
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 1: openly said, the problems of yours to make the world

995
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: you wanted, It is not possible on earth to give

996
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: everyone what they would want. Not everyone can have Richard

997
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: Branson private islands people react negatively to any talking of economics,

998
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: but it's a resource allocation. You have to make decisions

999
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: about where things go. Economically, you can deliver a lot

1000
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: more value to a lot more people. In the virtual sense,

1001
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: we can have virtual devices that can get cheap enough

1002
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 1: that lots and lots of people will be able to

1003
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,839
Speaker 1: have these. Not everyone can have a mention, Not everyone

1004
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: can have a home theater. These are things we can simulate,

1005
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: though to some degree, in virtual reality, and the simulation

1006
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: is not as good as the as the real thing.

1007
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: If you're rich, you probably have your own home theater,

1008
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 1: imagine in private island. Good for you. You're probably not

1009
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: the people who's going to benefit the most from this thing.

1010
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: Most of the people in the world lived in cramped

1011
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: quarters and are not and they wouldn't that and that's

1012
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: not what they would choose to be and if they

1013
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: had a limited resources. There's this piece of art that

1014
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: goes around the internet. It's the this dystopian kid in

1015
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: a corner drooling with goggles on, with like rainbow pictures.

1016
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: But it's a terrible looking place, and people say, this

1017
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: is the world you're trying to build. People plugged into

1018
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: virtual reality and ignoring the world around them, and Carmacs

1019
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: responses and encouraging. He says, but is his life really

1020
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: better off if he takes the goggles off and he's

1021
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: in the horrible place? So I I think Carmack really

1022
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: has convinced himself that virtual reality is a path to

1023
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: making the world a better place. In the interview, he

1024
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: compares VR to the invention of like air conditioning. He says, like,

1025
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: I live in Dallas, it's a hundred degrees here. We

1026
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: change the world around us in all that we do.

1027
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: We live in air conditioning. People don't generally go, oh,

1028
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: you're not experience seeing the world around you because of

1029
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: air conditioning. This is what human beings do. We bend

1030
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: the world to our will, and this is how things

1031
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: get better by building, by building technology and distributing them

1032
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 1: to people so that they have something better than what

1033
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: we would they would have if they didn't exist. Now,

1034
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: if you dig into what he's saying, here's actually a

1035
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: few interesting things. Because for one, yeah, air conditioning is

1036
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: actually kind of bad, like the way we're using it

1037
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: and what it represents. It is a band aid solution

1038
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: to our continual problem of heating up the earth and

1039
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: it's making the problem worse every single day. Yeah, and honestly,

1040
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, it's like it's like a band aid

1041
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: that also makes the problem worse because a C contributes

1042
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: to a lot of energy human shit. But you know,

1043
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: air conditioning is also an actual material change, right like

1044
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: it can it can actually help people not die due

1045
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: to heat. The metaverse and VR has talked about does

1046
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: not improve a middle to lower class person's material conditions,

1047
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: and to say so demonstrates how disconnected these tech bros

1048
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: are from a regular person's reality. The metaphors and VR

1049
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,919
Speaker 1: and like virtual worlds are going to be built based

1050
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: on the perception of reality held by those who create them.

1051
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: That's why we're getting shitty digital private movie theaters, fake

1052
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: mansions and metaverse concerts and h and M n f

1053
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: T stores. They're giving us a simulated version of the

1054
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: world that they actually get to live in for real.

1055
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: But we can refuse this. We we don't need to

1056
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: take them up on this offer. If we're gonna be

1057
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: stuck with with multiple proprietary branded meta verses that are

1058
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: made by rich tech bros to mirror a world that

1059
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: the that the rich tech bro gets to live in

1060
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: the best thing we can do is funk with it.

1061
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: We can saboage it from the inside. We need to

1062
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: spam floating dicks at a metaverse concert. This is the

1063
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 1: actual thing that needs to happen, because look, we all

1064
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,439
Speaker 1: know terrorism is fun, right, everybody loves terrorism, but there's

1065
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: horrible consequences for doing it in the real world. In

1066
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: the metaverse, there's no laws against terrorism. Yet you can

1067
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: terrorize however you want in the metaverse and it's just

1068
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: trolling and that's fine, So do a much of it

1069
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: as possible until they make it illegal. The except that

1070
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: would go really well with this type of thing is

1071
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: the poet terrorism concept of this applies like perfectly to

1072
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: this idea of how we need to funk with these

1073
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: digital spaces that are trying to be created, because yeah,

1074
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 1: like they're like they're pretty bad. During one Bitcoin consumed

1075
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: all of the electrical energy um by equivalent to a

1076
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: country like Argentina um. The bitcoin network handled like nineties

1077
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: seven million transactions, so this is roughly zero point zero

1078
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: one two percent of the worldwide volume of non cash transactions.

1079
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: But bitcoin was responsible for zero point five four of

1080
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 1: global electricity consumption on total, which is astronomical, like that's

1081
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: all like, that's it's either it's ridiculates on average, that's like, uh,

1082
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: like thirteen hundred kill about hours poor per bitcoin transaction,

1083
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: which is so much energy. The power consumed by a

1084
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: single bit quin transaction on average could power an average

1085
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: US household for one and a half months. It's it

1086
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: is ridiculous how much and how much it's getting used.

1087
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: And they're trying to build, you know, like the sek

1088
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: City thing. They're trying to build this metaverse off of crypto,

1089
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: which they're like, I'm sad because like crypto could be

1090
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: really similar to the metaverse. Crypto could be really rad

1091
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: Like crypto could be an actually super red thing, but

1092
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: the way it's being used right now is really environmentally damaging.

1093
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: UM and this this linking of Web three, you know,

1094
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: the mythical Web three and the metaverse to crypto is

1095
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: showing like yeah, it's it's is kind of like the

1096
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: band aid solution, where it's not it's it's it's not

1097
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: it's not actually fixing the problem, and it's kind of

1098
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: making the problem worse because they're so set on linking

1099
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: it to crypto right now that it's it sucks like it.

1100
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: It's it's it's it's gonna happen. It's gonna suck. What

1101
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: you can do is you can spam Final Fantasy seven porn,

1102
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: you can spam Sonic, the Hedgehog feet picks. This is

1103
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: this is the only tool we have. But save for

1104
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: actual terrorism, which we're not gonna talk about on this podcast,

1105
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: you can, but we can't talk about poetic terrorism. That

1106
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: is something that you can do. You can funk with

1107
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: these systems from the inside and make them unusable. And

1108
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: that's that's really the only thing. And that's what I'm

1109
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: gonna do in my spare time because it's fine. Yeah, um,

1110
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 1: do do poetic terrorism in the metaverse. Um, go funk

1111
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: it up for them. Um. And maybe in the process,

1112
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: here's my dream garrison that perhaps in the process of

1113
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 1: sucking it up for them, we build something that we

1114
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: actually like. That's the thing, right, Yeah, that is similar

1115
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: to how the Internet kind of got originally created. Of course,

1116
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: now it's turned into this hellscape, but that'll probably that

1117
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: will probably happen any ten years or more for the

1118
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: meta but we can get a little bit of fun

1119
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: out of it, and we can have some fun with it,

1120
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: like we did on the internet for a couple of years.

1121
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: It all got real bad. So that is that is

1122
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: the metaverse that doesn't exist. Um and yeah, So fight

1123
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: against the matrix as best as you can do your best,

1124
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 1: hold them out, Go to city for the cows the world.

1125
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: Make a cow's y on. It's up to us. This

1126
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 1: is depressing, all right. That's the episode. Welcome to It

1127
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 1: could happen here, A show about things falling apart and

1128
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: how to maybe put them back together a little bit

1129
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: better than they were before. I am Robert Evans, and

1130
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: with me this week is I guess I'm very excited

1131
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: about Chris Begley, author of The Next Apocalypse, The Art

1132
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: and Science of Survival. Chris, Welcome to the show. Thank

1133
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: you now, Chris. Before we get into the meat of

1134
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 1: our discussion, I have to talk about what you do

1135
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: for a living, because for years and years it was

1136
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: my job to go around the world. I talked to

1137
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 1: people and pretty much every continent about their different interesting jobs.

1138
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: So I've I've talked interviewed everybody from like Bravo workers

1139
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: in Nevada to Iraqi counter terrorism special forces in Iraq.

1140
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,920
Speaker 1: And you have probably the coolest job title if anybody

1141
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: I've met, you're an underwater archaeologist, that's right. How did you? Um?

1142
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: How did you? I mean was that was it just

1143
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: kind of like were you kind of laser focused on

1144
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 1: that goal or was it more you were interested in

1145
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: archaeology and you loved diving, and so the two just

1146
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: kind of made sense together. Yeah. Well, I started out

1147
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: as ah what now called a terrestrial archaeologist, you know,

1148
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: working on the land as most people do, and worked

1149
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: for years in Central America. Honduras was my focus, as

1150
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: you saw in the book, but other other places uh,

1151
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: nearby as well, And really it was about I would say,

1152
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: I don't know twill often fourteen years ago I wanted

1153
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,320
Speaker 1: to just branch out a little bit from that. And

1154
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: one of the things that that all archaeologists have seen

1155
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: is that, you know, there are certain things that really

1156
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: just aren't as explored as other things, and one was

1157
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 1: all of the archaeological resources underwater. I mean, we hear

1158
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: about underwater archaeology or maritime archaeology in the Mediterranean, right,

1159
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, Roman shipwrecks and all that, but there are

1160
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 1: big chunks of the world where we've done very little

1161
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: to see what's out there. You know. And one other

1162
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: interesting thing about that is there are many different things

1163
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: you could look at underwater, but often we look at shipwrecks,

1164
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: and shipwrecks are different from regular archaeological sites because, you know,

1165
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 1: shipwreck is a moment in time that all happened in

1166
01:04:51,680 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: in one instance, and so when we're looking at that

1167
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of archaeological site, we see this snapshot that we

1168
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: don't see when we look at a it was occupied

1169
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: over hundreds of years, so you know. So, yeah, so

1170
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: that wasn't my focus, but it became, uh, sort of

1171
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: somewhere I wanted to go as I learn more about

1172
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: And one of the things I find really interesting that

1173
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 1: the basic thrust of your book is that the way

1174
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: in which we think about civilizations falling or collapsing or

1175
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: how however you you know, the ways in which folks

1176
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: tend to discuss that when we're talking about the Maya

1177
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: or the romans Um is very different from what archaeologists

1178
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 1: who tend to study these cultures, how they tend to

1179
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 1: perceive of of what you might more accurately call a

1180
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: decline or or you know, a decentralization or whatever. I

1181
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 1: think there's a number of terms that we could use.

1182
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: But these ideas that like you have these civilizations and

1183
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: then they suddenly fall apart um, are not really based

1184
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 1: in rigorous historical analysis usually. Um, there's some cases as

1185
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: as you go into the book. UM, and I'm I'm

1186
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm interested in that because you're kind of coming at

1187
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: from a very rigorous historical standpoint in this book. Um,

1188
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that we talked about on

1189
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 1: on this show in a more contemporary sense. And I'm

1190
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: kind of wondering how the idea to write this sort

1191
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: of came together because you you started it before the

1192
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic. Obviously that had an impact on the book.

1193
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all over there. Yeah yeah. Um, well,

1194
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: I've I was. One of the things that I do

1195
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: is teach the wilderness survival courses and um, and I

1196
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,200
Speaker 1: don't do that as frequently as some people that that

1197
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: sort of dedicate themselves to that do, but but but

1198
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: I do it fairly frequently. And UM. It became obvious

1199
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: to me over time that people were taking these courses

1200
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: not just to learn how to deal with being lost

1201
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 1: out in the wilderness, which is sort of was my vision.

1202
01:06:57,280 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 1: What do you do if you unexpectedly have to spend

1203
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 1: an eye out in the woods, or or two or three. Um,

1204
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: they were really thinking about what am I do when

1205
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 1: things fall apart? How do I take care of myself?

1206
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,720
Speaker 1: How do I take care of my family using these

1207
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: skills that you could use in a situation where things

1208
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: had fallen apart? And that sort of oriented me towards

1209
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, people were worrying about the future.

1210
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 1: I mean I could see it. I could see it

1211
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: in my students at university. I could see it, you know,

1212
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: in the people's faces at the supermarket. You know, there

1213
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: was something going on there that was um uh, there

1214
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: was concerning people, and a lot of it had to

1215
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 1: do with climate change, and that I think was was

1216
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: the focus initially for me writing this um because what

1217
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: I saw was, you know, sort of the prepper community

1218
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: and survivalist community looking at things that really seemed to

1219
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: be short term and didn't at all focus on what

1220
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: we really saw historically. So I think that my um,

1221
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: my initial motive to motivation to write this was really

1222
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: just seeing this concern that was that was growing among

1223
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: people about what the future is going to look like.

1224
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: And then of course COVID hit and that that that

1225
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,640
Speaker 1: really brought all this to the to the forefront. And

1226
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: are there any specific ways in your mind that you

1227
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,160
Speaker 1: you can you kind of think on how COVID altered

1228
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: what you were what you were writing, or how you

1229
01:08:30,080 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: conceived of what you were writing. Like once you you know,

1230
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:34,600
Speaker 1: you you have this kind of vision that's inspired by

1231
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: the things that you're seeing and hearing, particularly in these

1232
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: wilderness survival courses. And then as you get started, we

1233
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: have this horrible, horrible plague hit and a number of

1234
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: of of things start to happen very quickly. How does

1235
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: that kind of alter the trajectory of what you're writing? Yeah,

1236
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: I guess the you know, the there were some just

1237
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: sort of practical logistical things obviously, right, uh, Some things

1238
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 1: that I intended to do or ways that I had

1239
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: hoped to interact with folks in the course of interviewing

1240
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: people for the book or writing it, you know, wasn't

1241
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: going to be possible. But in terms of thinking about

1242
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 1: how things happened, the big thing for me was, um,

1243
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: how it became politicized so quickly. You know, that was

1244
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: you know in the um you know, you know, well,

1245
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 1: now you see all of the memes you know, um

1246
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 1: talking about the zombie movies where half the population doesn't

1247
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: believe their zombies or something. You know, that was never

1248
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 1: really on the radar, at least not on my radar before.

1249
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 1: And so now um, um, you know it is because clearly,

1250
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 1: not only do these things happen and then you have

1251
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: a group of people that are dealing with it, you

1252
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 1: have obviously the dynamics within the group, which which of

1253
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: course we knew, but to see it play out in

1254
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: this way and this sort of dramatic way that really

1255
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: altered the course of history. I mean, the pandemic could

1256
01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 1: have turned out uh, you know, differently, but it didn't.

1257
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 1: And part of the reason that didn't was because of

1258
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 1: the way folks reacted to it. And I'm wondering because

1259
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 1: a part a chunk of your career, in a big

1260
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 1: chunk of this book is kind of looking at in

1261
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: places like Honduras where these these civilizations entered decline, and

1262
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: in some cases it was very sharp, like within a

1263
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:31,280
Speaker 1: fairly short period of time, nine of the population leaves

1264
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: or you know, uh is deceased. Um. And you you

1265
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 1: see like the crumbling of a lot of these governmental

1266
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: institutions and whatnot that had had organized life for a while.

1267
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: You see the pretty significant migrations. Um. Is there any

1268
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: ways in which kind of the last two years as

1269
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: an archaeologist has changed or informed how you were thinking about, um,

1270
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 1: these places that you've been you've been studying, in these

1271
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: moments in history that you've been studying for so long. Yeah,

1272
01:10:59,160 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 1: in some ways, it brings some of it into a

1273
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 1: little sharper focus. For instance, you know, one of the

1274
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:08,760
Speaker 1: things that that archaeologists had long talked about was that

1275
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 1: during these declines or these collapses, that it's uneven. It's

1276
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 1: not equal for everybody. It's not equal over space and time,

1277
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: and certainly depending on your position in society. UM, there's

1278
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 1: different ways in which it it plays out for you, um,

1279
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 1: you know, and that's something that we see. We see

1280
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:36,920
Speaker 1: it from um, you know, access to vaccines to UM well,

1281
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 1: I mean even things like you know, if we think

1282
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: about folks that are unvaccinated. Now there's a you know,

1283
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:45,640
Speaker 1: a chunk of those people that are doing it for

1284
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: a sort of political reasons or other ideological reason, but

1285
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: there's also a big, uh, a big group of those

1286
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: folks that are doing it because history shows that they

1287
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:05,960
Speaker 1: should be wary of anything that uh society tries to

1288
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: do to them. And so, you know, you have these

1289
01:12:09,360 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 1: these things playing out for different ways for um, you know,

1290
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: people from different regions of the country or political orientations,

1291
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: or race or ethnicity or um, you know, a whole

1292
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 1: variety of things. And so seeing how uneven it was

1293
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: the pandemic, UH makes me think that you know, it

1294
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 1: certainly was that way then. UH. The other thing that

1295
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 1: we see when we look archaeologically is that it's these

1296
01:12:35,920 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 1: big structures or systems that collapse. That really is the

1297
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 1: collapse and the things that cause it initially, whether it's

1298
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, deforestation or drought or warfare or even

1299
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: a natural disaster of some sort, um, that really it's

1300
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 1: the way people respond to those and the way these

1301
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 1: systems deal with those changes that really creates the problems

1302
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 1: that you see later on. And we can see that now.

1303
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 1: For instance, one of the things that we're talking a

1304
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: lot now about is supply chain issues, right, and this

1305
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 1: is a result of COVID, but it's not a direct result.

1306
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not because the crews on the ships

1307
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 1: are at the ports or truck drivers have uh are

1308
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 1: sick it's because of the ways in which all of

1309
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 1: this disrupted things, and especially when we get these really

1310
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: efficient but inflexible systems, like a lot of our shipping

1311
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: system was um these disruptions result in really big changes.

1312
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: So you know, you have these huge ships that can

1313
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,439
Speaker 1: only dock a few ports. Once that gets backed up,

1314
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: you can't really shift and adjust, and so that's I

1315
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: think for me, just a lot of it is seeing

1316
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 1: it play out, where we see the fact that we

1317
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: have something that sets it all off, but then we

1318
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:18,560
Speaker 1: have the response of the system or the structure that

1319
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:24,400
Speaker 1: really creates the day to day impact. I suspect a

1320
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 1: big part of kind of why we conceive popularly of

1321
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 1: of quote unquote collapses in the past is based on,

1322
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 1: as you talk about extensively in your book, the way

1323
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: in which we look at it kind of in fiction,

1324
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 1: and in fiction it's nearly always like the societal equivalent

1325
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: of a bullet in the head, right, the zombie plague

1326
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,519
Speaker 1: is out, and then a couple of days everything's fallen apart.

1327
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: And the point that you make in this is that

1328
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: it's probably I mean, this isn't exactly the phrase, but

1329
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:50,800
Speaker 1: it's probably better to look at it kind of like

1330
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,800
Speaker 1: it's like a tumor or something where the things are

1331
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 1: set in motion that are going to lead to things

1332
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: falling apart much much um, at a point before a

1333
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 1: lot of people probably would have noticed it. You know,

1334
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 1: the problem can be too far gone, um before it's

1335
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 1: really obvious. UM. And we yeah, yeah, yeah, I think

1336
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: that's that's a good point. And that's the that's really

1337
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 1: something that you know, even with COVID, it shows that, right. Um.

1338
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: You know, the problems are not only the existence or

1339
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: the appearance of this virus, but you know, first of all,

1340
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 1: how did it appear, And that has to do with um,

1341
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, decreasing habitat for wild animals and the proximity

1342
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: of human populations to animals. And then we have increased

1343
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 1: sort of um communication and travel, which you know is

1344
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,519
Speaker 1: not a bad thing obviously, but it is going to

1345
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: change the way in which these things spread. But then

1346
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:55,120
Speaker 1: we have the way that we divide ourselves up into

1347
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: nation states, and the way in which we have you know,

1348
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: economic systems that are working in certain ways. So you know,

1349
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 1: the vaccine gets here but not there and and and

1350
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 1: so forth. UM. But yeah, that's you know that I

1351
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 1: think is at the heart of it, you have these

1352
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: things that have been set in place. You have these

1353
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,240
Speaker 1: parameters in in which you're going to have to react,

1354
01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 1: and they really set um the stage for what's going

1355
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 1: to happen. You know, you have it's like looking backwards

1356
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,240
Speaker 1: four or five moves in chess to see how did

1357
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: we get in this situation. It's not just because of

1358
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: that last move, it's because of the last ten moves. Yeah.

1359
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you bring up that

1360
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:42,880
Speaker 1: I like is that if you're looking for kind of

1361
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,839
Speaker 1: a historical example of a collapse that that most mirrors

1362
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:48,560
Speaker 1: that we tend to look at it in fiction, it

1363
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: would probably be what happened to the indigenous population of

1364
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:57,600
Speaker 1: particularly like North America um after the arrival of colonizers,

1365
01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: which was by a lot of accounts like ninety per

1366
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 1: scent of the population dead within a fairly short span

1367
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 1: of time, primarily from disease. This this really rapid and

1368
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: cataclysmic um um shock. But also, at the same time,

1369
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: as much as it does seem to mirror some of

1370
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 1: our you know, kind of fictional depictions of of viral

1371
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 1: outbreaks or other sort of of of societal calamities, um

1372
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 1: the ways in which people survived don't really in any

1373
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,719
Speaker 1: meaningful way mirror the are are kind of popular fictional

1374
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: depiction of like who makes it out of that sort

1375
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 1: of a situation, you know, the the strapping military veteran

1376
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 1: with a rifle and a stockpile of food or whatever.

1377
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, yeah, that that, you know. I would

1378
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:46,759
Speaker 1: say that certainly having these skills to keep yourself alive

1379
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: is important, and it is true that if you don't

1380
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 1: make it through the first thirty days, you're not gonna

1381
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:56,439
Speaker 1: make it through the next thirty years. But um, yeah,

1382
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:00,919
Speaker 1: the way people survive outside of a few days perhaps

1383
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 1: when they're dealing with some of these uh, what we

1384
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 1: would think of the survival situations is this a community?

1385
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 1: I mean we see that with uh, you know, when

1386
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:14,959
Speaker 1: we look at the Native American history in North America.

1387
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 1: You know, even as populations and entire groups were being

1388
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: decimated by these diseases, sometimes of a village in a

1389
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: single winner from a wave or waves of disease, even

1390
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 1: in the in the face of that, they reconstituted themselves

1391
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: as communities, sometimes um multi ethnic or multicultural communities. I mean,

1392
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:48,400
Speaker 1: there was a whole variety of ways in which people regrouped.

1393
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:50,720
Speaker 1: And I think that that you know, that was the

1394
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 1: message and you know, part of the uh, this image

1395
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: of you know, grabbing your bugout bag and heading out

1396
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: to the hills is um, it's just doesn't work, you know.

1397
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 1: And and the the stockpiling you know as well. Um,

1398
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 1: and so yeah, when we look archaeologically, you know, we

1399
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,720
Speaker 1: always see communications. Yeah, and that's something we really try

1400
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 1: to encourage people do on this show, where obviously some

1401
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 1: amount of disaster preparation is is not just helpful, but

1402
01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: is I think kind of morally necessary if it's at

1403
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 1: all financially feasible for you. You know it is you

1404
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 1: are it is absolutely the right thing to do to

1405
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,760
Speaker 1: try to have two three weeks of of relatively storable food,

1406
01:19:34,920 --> 01:19:39,120
Speaker 1: some water, um, you know, some other emergency supplies. But

1407
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 1: kind of beyond that, as you said that first, like

1408
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,599
Speaker 1: thirty days, if you actually want not just to live,

1409
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: but to have you know, life, have any kind of meaning, Um,

1410
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: you have to be thinking in a community oriented situation. Yeah,

1411
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:55,719
Speaker 1: I mean, because ultimately, you know, what's the difference between

1412
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: two weeks or two months worth of food? Right? You know,

1413
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 1: it's good to be gone and you know you have

1414
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: to come back. You know. One of the things in

1415
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 1: researching for this for this book, one of the things

1416
01:20:09,840 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 1: I looked at was the history of how we made

1417
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:18,000
Speaker 1: a living, uh and the history of agriculture. And one

1418
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: of the things that, you know, that that I found

1419
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 1: was that the last time that humans lived where a

1420
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 1: significant portion of the population was hunters and gatherers, that is,

1421
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:36,200
Speaker 1: not farmers, there was like one of the current population,

1422
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, less than five million people in the world.

1423
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 1: So even a catastrophic disaster that you know, reduced us

1424
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 1: to of you knowent of current population, we're still going

1425
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:54,759
Speaker 1: to have more people in the world than ever lived

1426
01:20:54,880 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 1: without agriculture, and so we're gonna have to uh uh

1427
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:05,160
Speaker 1: recreate some of these systems. And you know, agriculture by

1428
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 1: and large is going to be a community based. Yeah system,

1429
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: it's uh, I mean, you can garden on your own,

1430
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: but but the way that it needs to work is

1431
01:21:14,400 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 1: is going to be a collective Yeah. And I think, um, yeah,

1432
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: this is we talk a lot about. I actually live

1433
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:23,320
Speaker 1: with a couple of wilderness survival instructors and we have

1434
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 1: about an acre of land and we do a decent

1435
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 1: amount of of of you know, gardening, you know, animal

1436
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:31,560
Speaker 1: husbandry and that sort of thing, and it it is.

1437
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:34,320
Speaker 1: Um I've I've spent a lot of my life on farm,

1438
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: so I've kind of always had an appreciation for how

1439
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 1: much work it is. And one of the things we

1440
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,840
Speaker 1: try to talk about on this show regularly is the

1441
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 1: value of even just having a garden of things like

1442
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 1: guerrilla gardening. Not because I'm not one of those people

1443
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 1: who thinks that like, oh, we need to replace industrial

1444
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 1: agriculture with like individuals tending small gardens. That's not going

1445
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 1: to work, but because the more you kind of interface

1446
01:21:55,920 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 1: directly with the concept of growing food and with working

1447
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,040
Speaker 1: with other people in order to do that, the more

1448
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:03,639
Speaker 1: prepared you are for any number of things that could

1449
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 1: go wrong, Like even if those things don't involve a

1450
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 1: crunch in the food supply lines, the connections you make

1451
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:09,720
Speaker 1: with people doing that sort of work will be more

1452
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 1: valuable than an extra two months of stockpiles. You know,

1453
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:15,400
Speaker 1: when you're in your food buckets or whatever, you're Alex

1454
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:19,599
Speaker 1: Jones dried food buckets. Yeah, well that's that's absolutely right.

1455
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that occurred to

1456
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 1: me looking into the past at some of these uh,

1457
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:28,759
Speaker 1: you know, collapses or declines that had happened in the past,

1458
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:35,599
Speaker 1: was that a huge percent of the population um um

1459
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,560
Speaker 1: was engaged directly in agriculture. And you know here in

1460
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,640
Speaker 1: the well in the industrialized world is typically less than

1461
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,519
Speaker 1: five percent less than that even in the United States.

1462
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:52,160
Speaker 1: Most people like me don't uh, don't engage in it.

1463
01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 1: And you know, I know something about gardening, perhaps like

1464
01:22:55,800 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 1: everybody else, but I'm not a farmer. I don't really

1465
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 1: have that wisdom. And if I had to do that, um,

1466
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: you know, probably it's like a lot of other things.

1467
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 1: When everything is easy, it's not so bad when you

1468
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 1: know when it goes bad, it really helps to know

1469
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: what you're doing. Um. And of course everything goes bad

1470
01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: sooner or later and so um. You know, that's that

1471
01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:26,120
Speaker 1: kind of things very important, you know. And I think

1472
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: also there could certainly local systems and some flexible scale

1473
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: would be really important, you know. So I'm also, like you,

1474
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 1: a proponent of of this sort of thing. You know,

1475
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 1: if we can get everybody to participate in ways that

1476
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:47,600
Speaker 1: we aren't now, that will give us some flexibility. What

1477
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:50,639
Speaker 1: if what if we do have supply chain problems, Well,

1478
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:52,560
Speaker 1: we have a number of people in the community that

1479
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 1: are already doing some of this stuff that could maybe

1480
01:23:55,920 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 1: be expanded or get us through this period. So yeah, yeah,

1481
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:04,200
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you're not like dealing with everyone's

1482
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 1: caloric needs, it could be as simple as because of

1483
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 1: where you're located, you know, when when the oranges and

1484
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:11,360
Speaker 1: other kind of fruits aren't able to come in from

1485
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:13,760
Speaker 1: a supply line, thing there's a shortage of vitamin C,

1486
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 1: and then knowing how to make teata pine needles or whatever,

1487
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:18,840
Speaker 1: or what kind of plants have a lot of vitamin C.

1488
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:22,360
Speaker 1: You know, even though you're not you're not focused on

1489
01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 1: meeting everyone's you know, entire caloric needs through small scale farming,

1490
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 1: but you can deal with the a nutrient deficiency or

1491
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 1: something because you understand your environment a little bit better. Yeah,

1492
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 1: and you know, probably quality of life issues too. I mean,

1493
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, for uh, you know kids, and you know

1494
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 1: there's there's lots of there's lots of ways you can

1495
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: survive that are pretty miserable. So you want to you

1496
01:24:47,600 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 1: want to try to uh direct it towards those that

1497
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 1: are desirable. And I think part of that is having

1498
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: this flexibility, having this knowledge, having a lot of people

1499
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 1: involved in things. And you know, one of the things

1500
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: I talked about in in my book or ideas of

1501
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, diversity and inclusion, which we talk about in

1502
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 1: certain ways now and often I think unfortunately it's talked about,

1503
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 1: is if it's done to benefit the people that are

1504
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:21,759
Speaker 1: marginalized and left out only and while it is partly

1505
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 1: that it benefits everybody, of course, I mean, anyone in

1506
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:30,040
Speaker 1: a business knows, anybody in a university knows the benefits

1507
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:34,880
Speaker 1: of of diversity. In the same way anybody that's trying

1508
01:25:34,960 --> 01:25:38,639
Speaker 1: to do something understands the benefit of a diverse range

1509
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 1: of experiences. You know. That's why we make these multidisciplinary

1510
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:45,640
Speaker 1: teams that go out and do things. Uh, you know,

1511
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:49,360
Speaker 1: it's so that you have this this wide variety that

1512
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: can help you keep going. Yeah. And one of the

1513
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,560
Speaker 1: things that I really found fascinating in your book and

1514
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:57,360
Speaker 1: that that kind of made me feel a little bit

1515
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,519
Speaker 1: um bad as I you know, I've I've I've spent

1516
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,479
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about the what happened, what

1517
01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:06,599
Speaker 1: was done to and what also just kind of happened

1518
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 1: as a result of the way diseases spread when when

1519
01:26:09,479 --> 01:26:12,760
Speaker 1: colonizers reached North America. I had never really devoted that

1520
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 1: much thought to the actual actions that in different indigenous

1521
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: groups took consciously to prevent to protect themselves from the

1522
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 1: spread of diseases. You mentioned the Cherokee in particular, Um,

1523
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 1: in your book. Could you talk a little bit more

1524
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:28,640
Speaker 1: about that, because that's something as soon as I read it,

1525
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 1: I marked that page because I'm like, I need to

1526
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 1: look up what the studies he's referencing, because I I

1527
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: don't know anything about this. Yeah, that, Um, you know,

1528
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:39,280
Speaker 1: a lot of that stems from the research of of

1529
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:46,559
Speaker 1: some other archaeologists and they you know what, You're exactly right.

1530
01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:48,760
Speaker 1: We don't think about that. We're not taught about it

1531
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:52,120
Speaker 1: that way. You know. We sort of have this this

1532
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:58,400
Speaker 1: contradictory and sort of u uh doubly problematic way of

1533
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:02,400
Speaker 1: talking about this. For for a long time, we denied

1534
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 1: sort of the how traumatic and how much of a

1535
01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:14,519
Speaker 1: genocide it was when Europeans arrived. Um. And then after

1536
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 1: denying that, we sort of say, well, Native Americans are

1537
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 1: gone and no longer relevant, so we can cease to

1538
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: talk about them. Of course that's not true. And one

1539
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:28,639
Speaker 1: of the things that we see when we look more

1540
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:32,640
Speaker 1: in detail at the histories or we listen to the

1541
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:35,040
Speaker 1: oral histories, or we look at the archaeology. Is that

1542
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 1: there are a number of things that that that people

1543
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 1: did and do to um uh uh to create the

1544
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: outcomes that they want. And that was no different for

1545
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 1: the Native American groups, you know, I mean, they had

1546
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: ways of dealing with disease, and some of them will

1547
01:27:56,040 --> 01:28:01,639
Speaker 1: be will be able to understand it via our sort

1548
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:09,480
Speaker 1: of our system right isolating people cleanliness of minimizing contact

1549
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 1: expect especially with sort of problematic groups like the Colonizer's

1550
01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:18,080
Speaker 1: um you know. But in other ways, there are things

1551
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: that are gonna be unfamiliar to us and we're not

1552
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:26,800
Speaker 1: gonna see the effectiveness or the value in it. But

1553
01:28:26,920 --> 01:28:29,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that that all of these things did,

1554
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 1: that these groups were doing was created or maintained um

1555
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 1: group identity and cohesion and allowed the perseverance of of community.

1556
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:49,400
Speaker 1: And so there are um you know, it's it's easy

1557
01:28:49,479 --> 01:28:52,439
Speaker 1: to think about people as sort of passive victims of something,

1558
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 1: especially when it serves your purpose to to think about

1559
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: it in these ways, and we just see that it's

1560
01:28:59,520 --> 01:29:02,960
Speaker 1: it's not the case. Yeah, there was a remarkable moment

1561
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 1: in the book and I think it was from when

1562
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 1: you were in Honduras where you you talk about you're

1563
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:10,560
Speaker 1: finding pottery shirts and they have these specific kind of

1564
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 1: markings on them from I don't like a thousand years

1565
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:15,639
Speaker 1: ago or so. And you also know a local woman

1566
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 1: who's a potter and she's putting the same markings on

1567
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:20,720
Speaker 1: and you ask her why and her answer is like, well,

1568
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 1: because the pottery shirts that we find from our ancestors

1569
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: have those on them. And my initial thought was like, oh,

1570
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 1: what a shame that she doesn't know what those originally meant.

1571
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:33,360
Speaker 1: But then I thought like, well, but is that any

1572
01:29:33,439 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 1: different from like all of the different things that that

1573
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:38,240
Speaker 1: I do because their traditions, because like they're things that

1574
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:41,280
Speaker 1: like people a thousand years ago in in in my

1575
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:44,080
Speaker 1: line did like, no, it's not like it's it's just

1576
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:46,400
Speaker 1: what people do, and it is a continuation, and it's

1577
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 1: a very there's um, that's a that's that's survival, you know,

1578
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: that's that's conscious survival. Yeah, you know, and in that case,

1579
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: of course, whatever it meant initially, it now means that

1580
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 1: to her, right, So there's the meaning, you know, um,

1581
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:11,320
Speaker 1: And so it's it's interesting, you know, one of the

1582
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:14,679
Speaker 1: things you know, I'm from and I live in Kentucky.

1583
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 1: And one of the things, especially when people come to

1584
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: say Appalachians, they're looking for sort of authentic Appalachian Kentucky,

1585
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, um, and they already have an idea what

1586
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:32,559
Speaker 1: that is. And if you don't see it, because that's

1587
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 1: not really what people do, then the response is never,

1588
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 1: oh my idea is about what is authentic? Might be erroneous.

1589
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:43,880
Speaker 1: It's I wonder why I didn't see authentic Appalachians. You know.

1590
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 1: It's like, well you did, but you know there's gonna

1591
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:53,160
Speaker 1: be more hip hop and punk groups than there are

1592
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:59,759
Speaker 1: bluegrass groups because you know, these are twenty year old kids.

1593
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:02,360
Speaker 1: You know, they're doing this as much as this other

1594
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:06,600
Speaker 1: stuff and uh, you know more probably, And so that

1595
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:11,599
Speaker 1: that is something, uh that that I think of often

1596
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:14,280
Speaker 1: as an archaeologist. You know, my focus is in the past.

1597
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 1: But if I'm going to understand things, of course you

1598
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:19,640
Speaker 1: also have to understand how are people thinking about in

1599
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:21,479
Speaker 1: the present, and how am I thinking about it in

1600
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:25,800
Speaker 1: the present, because you know, everything, all the stories I

1601
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:28,599
Speaker 1: tell about the past are coming out of are coming

1602
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,320
Speaker 1: out of my experience in the present too, And it's

1603
01:31:31,400 --> 01:31:34,439
Speaker 1: hard to uh it's hard to separate those and that

1604
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:37,479
Speaker 1: really the best we can do is try to, um,

1605
01:31:38,800 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, reflect on that and see how is it

1606
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: that I might be limiting my understanding because of my

1607
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: particular experience. And one of the things I really like

1608
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:50,560
Speaker 1: about your book that I also found fascinating, So it's I,

1609
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, I I for a while did um conflict journalism,

1610
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 1: and before when when that was just an ambition of mine,

1611
01:31:57,280 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 1: Before I started to do it, I would see the

1612
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,640
Speaker 1: articles that were being written by all these war correspondents,

1613
01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:03,400
Speaker 1: and I would just be in awe of like how

1614
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:05,639
Speaker 1: did they get that story? How did they get that access?

1615
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:07,640
Speaker 1: How did they must have put so much work in?

1616
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:09,439
Speaker 1: And then when I actually got there, I realized like,

1617
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 1: oh no, they met they made a contact with the

1618
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 1: local who was good at it, and that person showed

1619
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:16,559
Speaker 1: them around and made all these connections, and like, actually,

1620
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:19,600
Speaker 1: none of this work happens without these local fixers. And

1621
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:23,799
Speaker 1: you make the point that in archaeology you're not generally

1622
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 1: discovering things like even when you're finding shipwrecks, it's because

1623
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 1: these sailors who lived nearby were like, well, yeah, a

1624
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:32,400
Speaker 1: bunch of shipwrecks over there like this is where you're

1625
01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: gonna go find them. You know, It's always the way

1626
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 1: it is, you know, there um um. And the example

1627
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:41,600
Speaker 1: you're talking about, I was part of this project in

1628
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,679
Speaker 1: Forney in Greece, which you know, made the news because

1629
01:32:44,760 --> 01:32:48,240
Speaker 1: we found so many shipwrecks there something ultimately like fifty

1630
01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:53,040
Speaker 1: shipwrecks around this island. Um and almost all of them

1631
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:56,080
Speaker 1: were shown to us by local folks. Uh you know

1632
01:32:56,439 --> 01:33:00,080
Speaker 1: that sponge divers or people that were fish or so,

1633
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, people that were out on the water all

1634
01:33:02,720 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 1: the time. And the few that we found by ourselves,

1635
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure people knew about them. We just stumbled on

1636
01:33:07,720 --> 01:33:10,080
Speaker 1: them before somebody had a chance to to show us.

1637
01:33:10,600 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 1: It's the same way in in the Honduras. Would we

1638
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 1: would be walking through the rainforest and you know, maybe

1639
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 1: we've been walking for a week, so we're way out

1640
01:33:20,479 --> 01:33:24,760
Speaker 1: in the middle of this place. People were constantly telling me,

1641
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 1: the guys that I was with, would say, Okay, if

1642
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 1: we go up this creek, you know, for about six hours,

1643
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,040
Speaker 1: and we go over here, here's what we'd find. Here's

1644
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 1: what we'd find over here, Here's what we find over here.

1645
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 1: They knew where everything was Um. And that's you know,

1646
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that you uh uh uh that

1647
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: that you learned is you know how reliant you are

1648
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:50,800
Speaker 1: on people that live in a place. I mean, they

1649
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 1: just know it. Yeah, there's no Um, when you get

1650
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:56,200
Speaker 1: right down to it, is as obsessed as we are

1651
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:58,280
Speaker 1: kind of in in the Western Cannon with the idea

1652
01:33:58,320 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 1: of lost cities. Um, that's not really a thing that

1653
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 1: tends to happen. Um. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not.

1654
01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 1: And and in fact, most of the archaeological sites that

1655
01:34:09,760 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 1: people didn't know about it was just because they were

1656
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 1: so small and ephemeral that no one really paid attention anything. Yeah,

1657
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:23,639
Speaker 1: there's no lost city there. They're always known for somebody. Well, Chris,

1658
01:34:23,800 --> 01:34:25,800
Speaker 1: I think that's that's most of what I wanted to

1659
01:34:25,840 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 1: get into in this conversation. I'm wondering before we kind

1660
01:34:28,880 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 1: of close out, because you you are both the author

1661
01:34:31,520 --> 01:34:33,559
Speaker 1: of this book, The Next Apocalypse, which is I think

1662
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:36,599
Speaker 1: a fascinating way of looking at the idea of things

1663
01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: Paul falling apart and a wilderness survival instructor. If you're

1664
01:34:40,080 --> 01:34:44,040
Speaker 1: going to suggest people, you know, a practical kit bag

1665
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 1: to prepare for short and kind of long term problems.

1666
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 1: What are you what are you putting in your bag? Well,

1667
01:34:51,200 --> 01:34:54,240
Speaker 1: you know there's the two main things, uh that you're

1668
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:58,759
Speaker 1: always gonna want is is a knife because that allows

1669
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 1: you to make a lot of other things, and a

1670
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,439
Speaker 1: way to start fire, you know, and we've all seen

1671
01:35:04,520 --> 01:35:07,599
Speaker 1: in the movies rubbing sticks together and you know, friction

1672
01:35:07,680 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 1: methods and that works, and you can do that, but

1673
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:14,479
Speaker 1: it is incredibly difficult to pain in the butt, you know,

1674
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:16,880
Speaker 1: and for most of us that don't do it all

1675
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:20,479
Speaker 1: the time, Uh, you're just not gonna be able to

1676
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:22,600
Speaker 1: do it when it's forty degrees in raining and you

1677
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:25,439
Speaker 1: really need a fire. You know, you'll be able to

1678
01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 1: do it when it's a hundred degrees and dry, you know, uh,

1679
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: because everything is about to catch on fire anyway. But uh,

1680
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:36,439
Speaker 1: you know so um and what would what would that

1681
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:39,479
Speaker 1: look like? Well, uh, you need something that will catch

1682
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:41,840
Speaker 1: on fire pretty quickly. And the thing I always takes

1683
01:35:41,960 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 1: cotton balls. You know, if you take cotton balls and

1684
01:35:45,160 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 1: a disposable lighter or one of those uh fire starter sticks,

1685
01:35:50,479 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: it will make sparks. Um that those cotton balls will

1686
01:35:54,280 --> 01:35:57,720
Speaker 1: catch fire instantly. And if you take one and you

1687
01:35:58,080 --> 01:36:00,760
Speaker 1: coat half of it with petroleum jelly. Then not only

1688
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 1: what catch fire, it will burn you know for you

1689
01:36:04,080 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 1: know a minute or so, long enough to catch other

1690
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 1: stuff on fire. So you know, making fire and having

1691
01:36:10,080 --> 01:36:13,840
Speaker 1: some sort of cutting tool are the very basic things.

1692
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:21,439
Speaker 1: But um, you know, the beyond that, I would say, uh,

1693
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, clothing or some sort of shelter is is

1694
01:36:26,479 --> 01:36:29,519
Speaker 1: the other thing. You know, exposure to elements will kill

1695
01:36:29,560 --> 01:36:33,840
Speaker 1: you quicker than anything, and so having some way to

1696
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 1: uh to protect yourself and that's usually gonna be you know,

1697
01:36:37,880 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 1: first line of defense going to be your clothes. And

1698
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 1: one of the things that that you'll know anybody that

1699
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:49,000
Speaker 1: that deals with sort of survival situations is that most

1700
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:51,880
Speaker 1: people that really get in trouble with things like hypothermia,

1701
01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's not when it's thirty degrees below and

1702
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 1: they're out doing something. It's when it's fifty degrees and

1703
01:36:58,520 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: sunny and they're out in a T shirt during the

1704
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,719
Speaker 1: day and then at night it drops to thirty degrees

1705
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 1: and you know they're stuck out somewhere with without proper clothing.

1706
01:37:12,160 --> 01:37:15,880
Speaker 1: That's that is when things get really dangerous. So you know,

1707
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, if you can have some

1708
01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:22,440
Speaker 1: way to start fire, some sort of knife, and appropriate

1709
01:37:22,560 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: clothes for spending the night out. You know then then uh,

1710
01:37:27,040 --> 01:37:32,200
Speaker 1: and you're probably in pretty good shape for most situations. Yeah. Well, Chris,

1711
01:37:32,400 --> 01:37:34,599
Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking with with us today.

1712
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 1: Chris Begley, underwater archaeologist, author of the Next Apocalypse, The

1713
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 1: Art of Science and Survival. Chris, is there anything you'd

1714
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:44,559
Speaker 1: liked else you'd like to say or kind of get

1715
01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: into before we close out for the day. No, just

1716
01:37:48,520 --> 01:37:51,519
Speaker 1: thank you very much for for reading the book and

1717
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:54,760
Speaker 1: for reaching out to talk with me, because I think that,

1718
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, especially now as we go into sort of

1719
01:37:59,200 --> 01:38:02,679
Speaker 1: an uncertain future. I mean, future is always uncertain, I suppose,

1720
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:07,360
Speaker 1: but um as you know, we're really recognizing some of

1721
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: these challenges. You know, I really am hoping that this

1722
01:38:11,240 --> 01:38:17,599
Speaker 1: sort of um uh, community based idea becomes the way

1723
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:20,320
Speaker 1: we think about things. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean

1724
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:23,120
Speaker 1: it's easy or that we're gonna like it. It doesn't

1725
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:25,080
Speaker 1: mean that that's what I want. I mean, tell you

1726
01:38:25,160 --> 01:38:26,960
Speaker 1: the truth, I would love it if it was just

1727
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 1: me out in the woods with my family. You know,

1728
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:34,720
Speaker 1: I can do that. It's much harder to be part

1729
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:36,640
Speaker 1: of a community and make things work for a big

1730
01:38:36,720 --> 01:38:39,840
Speaker 1: group of people, but that's just the way it's gonna be. Yeah,

1731
01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:42,920
Speaker 1: and that's that's ultimately the way in which you have

1732
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:47,680
Speaker 1: a lot more real security because I think, um uh,

1733
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:52,120
Speaker 1: I think people I don't know. The world seems so

1734
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,240
Speaker 1: complex and messy that it's easy to imagine that that

1735
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:58,960
Speaker 1: safety comes from getting away from the world. But historically

1736
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:03,360
Speaker 1: that's just not how it works. Now, the world finds you.

1737
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:07,120
Speaker 1: You know, it's the best. Being part of a group

1738
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 1: is always best, and your your little group can never

1739
01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 1: defend against the big group. I mean, if we want

1740
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:19,800
Speaker 1: to put it in those terms, you know, you can't

1741
01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:26,160
Speaker 1: just hoard everything and uh, it just doesn't work. Might

1742
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,720
Speaker 1: work for a little while, but yeah, so that you

1743
01:39:28,800 --> 01:39:31,400
Speaker 1: know that for me, that's the message I'm hoping, Yeah,

1744
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:34,880
Speaker 1: people take from it. Well, Thank you very much, Chris.

1745
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 1: For those of you listening at home again, please do

1746
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,240
Speaker 1: check out The Next Apocalypse The Art and Science of

1747
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 1: Survival by Chris Begley. That's going to do it for

1748
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 1: us all today. Chris, Thank you again, and have a

1749
01:39:45,560 --> 01:40:02,360
Speaker 1: wonderful day, are you too? Thank you wrote Oh boy,

1750
01:40:03,120 --> 01:40:07,280
Speaker 1: it could happen here. That's the name of the podcast.

1751
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 1: And I'm Robert Evans, the guy hosting the podcast. Who

1752
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:15,719
Speaker 1: else is with me? Is it? Is it? Garrison? Hello,

1753
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 1: Good morning, afternoon evening. Garrison Davis. Not yet a doctor

1754
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:24,679
Speaker 1: Garrison Davis, not yet, soon soon to be Dr Garrison Davis.

1755
01:40:25,800 --> 01:40:27,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're going to pass the exam

1756
01:40:28,080 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 1: that I know you're gonna have to pass in order

1757
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:33,360
Speaker 1: to get through this class. But yeah, a little teaser

1758
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:36,320
Speaker 1: for the future. Speaking of the future, this is a

1759
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 1: podcast about the ways in which the future is going

1760
01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:40,960
Speaker 1: to be real fucked up and ways in which maybe

1761
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:43,040
Speaker 1: we could try to make it less sucked up. Um.

1762
01:40:43,120 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 1: And today we have on a guest, Mr Calvin Norman,

1763
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: who posted a thread on our sub breddit with the

1764
01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:54,400
Speaker 1: very simple, very unsettling title the woods are Bad. Um

1765
01:40:54,640 --> 01:40:57,560
Speaker 1: And Calvin, you want to introduce your yourself, your credentials

1766
01:40:57,600 --> 01:40:59,080
Speaker 1: and what you were trying to get across in that

1767
01:40:59,160 --> 01:41:02,320
Speaker 1: thread because I found it very affecting. Yeah, thanks for ever.

1768
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:05,600
Speaker 1: So my name is, like you said, Calvin Norman, I

1769
01:41:06,080 --> 01:41:08,439
Speaker 1: work in forestry. I've worked in forestry for a while now.

1770
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 1: I used to be an industrial forester in the Great

1771
01:41:11,479 --> 01:41:14,519
Speaker 1: Lakes region. So like Wisconsin, Michigan. Then I worked in

1772
01:41:14,560 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 1: the Southeast. I did my masters down there, and now

1773
01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:19,400
Speaker 1: I'm in the mid Atlantic. So I've I've kind of

1774
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 1: been around the eastern United States. I haven't gotten that

1775
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:25,200
Speaker 1: west yet, but and I'm a certified forest or candidate

1776
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:26,960
Speaker 1: certified forest I've got a year left on that, so

1777
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:29,559
Speaker 1: I been around. I also do wildlife stuff. It's pretty

1778
01:41:29,560 --> 01:41:32,599
Speaker 1: fun and yeah, your your thread. What I found interesting

1779
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:34,679
Speaker 1: that I have a good friend who is in forestry

1780
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 1: or was in forestry at least and got their degree

1781
01:41:37,280 --> 01:41:39,479
Speaker 1: and that, and we were we were at hunting in

1782
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:44,280
Speaker 1: the Cascades a little earlier or a little later last year. Um,

1783
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:46,400
Speaker 1: and there's this wonderful moment. We've been following a game

1784
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:48,800
Speaker 1: trail up like this Steve hill side and it was

1785
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:50,639
Speaker 1: kind of a clearing where we were a clear cut,

1786
01:41:50,680 --> 01:41:52,200
Speaker 1: but there's deep brush all around. And we get to

1787
01:41:52,240 --> 01:41:53,519
Speaker 1: the top of this thing. We look out and we

1788
01:41:53,640 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 1: just see, you know, these these rolling mountains of the

1789
01:41:56,280 --> 01:41:59,679
Speaker 1: Cascades all covered in this the most this lush, beautiful

1790
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:02,600
Speaker 1: green near all these these pine trees and everything. And

1791
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:05,599
Speaker 1: my friend says to me, it's going to be totally

1792
01:42:05,640 --> 01:42:08,679
Speaker 1: different in twenty years. Um, it's already a different forest

1793
01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:10,280
Speaker 1: than the one I grew up with, and and that

1794
01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:12,439
Speaker 1: that is that is kind of the cliffs notes of

1795
01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:14,559
Speaker 1: what what you're You're getting too a lot of detail here,

1796
01:42:14,560 --> 01:42:16,720
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if you could just kind of like, yeah,

1797
01:42:16,840 --> 01:42:20,360
Speaker 1: start on that explained kind of what's actually happening in

1798
01:42:20,479 --> 01:42:22,120
Speaker 1: our woods, or at least the woods that that you're

1799
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:25,800
Speaker 1: comfortable talking about here. It's a big yeah, yeah, this

1800
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:27,559
Speaker 1: is a big content and you have a pretty good

1801
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:30,760
Speaker 1: international base. And I can't speak for the Europeans or

1802
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 1: the Canadians. There's a whole different ball game over there.

1803
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:37,120
Speaker 1: And tropical stuff is just wild, yeah, really cool about

1804
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 1: wild stuff. So mainly talked about the US, mainly Eastern

1805
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:44,360
Speaker 1: United States. So if you look at the eastern United States,

1806
01:42:44,640 --> 01:42:48,280
Speaker 1: this is a forest that has never existed before in

1807
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:51,960
Speaker 1: the history United States, UM previews. You know, prior to

1808
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 1: like nineteen twenty, our forest was like depending on the

1809
01:42:55,280 --> 01:42:59,920
Speaker 1: source of read, between twenty and chestnut with other species

1810
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,320
Speaker 1: mixed in there. And now we have a mainly oak

1811
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 1: dominated forest and we lost all of our chest into

1812
01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 1: the chestnut blighte UM out Western You've got a couple

1813
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:10,240
Speaker 1: of other things going on, but fire suppression is just

1814
01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:12,720
Speaker 1: changed the forest there. Uh, same here in the East

1815
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:15,360
Speaker 1: coast and into the Midwest. You know, you used to

1816
01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:17,600
Speaker 1: see a lot more fires going through. I mean, so

1817
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 1: that was lightning strikes, but no doubt a lot of

1818
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:21,880
Speaker 1: it was you know, intentionally set by the first nations

1819
01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:24,120
Speaker 1: and people before the people that we think of as

1820
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:27,679
Speaker 1: the first nations. And um, you know that has mainly

1821
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:30,720
Speaker 1: disappeared except for the southeast where fire has never really

1822
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:33,000
Speaker 1: stopped being at the ground, which is really cool. But

1823
01:43:33,160 --> 01:43:37,600
Speaker 1: even their species is composition has changed dramatically. Um. A

1824
01:43:37,720 --> 01:43:39,680
Speaker 1: lot of what we're seeing, as you know, changes in

1825
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 1: human management. But there's also a number of invasive species

1826
01:43:43,080 --> 01:43:46,160
Speaker 1: that have changed things, you know, like chestnut blight, emberald

1827
01:43:46,240 --> 01:43:49,200
Speaker 1: ashbour asia, longhorn beetle is coming in. You know, those

1828
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: are just the past the understory. And you know, plants

1829
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,479
Speaker 1: is a whole different ballgame. Um, it's it's it's all

1830
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:58,000
Speaker 1: not great. It's all not great. I was talking with

1831
01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 1: some colleagues that an agricultural show right before I posted that,

1832
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:02,599
Speaker 1: and we were talking about how the woods were bad,

1833
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:06,640
Speaker 1: and we very easily laid out a scenario where we

1834
01:44:06,760 --> 01:44:10,600
Speaker 1: lost the most of our remaining dominantory species. It was

1835
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 1: not at all hard to do. It took about two minutes.

1836
01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 1: So not great. Uh. And then the West coast things

1837
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 1: aren't great either. And when you're talking about when you're

1838
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:23,760
Speaker 1: talking about losing these species and stuff like the chestnut light,

1839
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:26,080
Speaker 1: where is that coming from? How much of that is

1840
01:44:26,160 --> 01:44:28,559
Speaker 1: sort of as a result of climate change? Like we're

1841
01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 1: having a lot of tree species have trouble here in

1842
01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:33,120
Speaker 1: the West because of how much hotter the summers are

1843
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:35,720
Speaker 1: and how much drier things have gotten. So how much

1844
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:37,439
Speaker 1: how much of what you're saying where you are is

1845
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:40,640
Speaker 1: because there's been changes to the climate, and how much

1846
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,400
Speaker 1: of it is you know, I guess kind of like globalism,

1847
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:45,160
Speaker 1: like people bringing in pests and bringing in blights and

1848
01:44:45,240 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 1: stuff from other areas and it spreads like wildfire. Well,

1849
01:44:49,200 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 1: I think that we're just starting to see the beginning

1850
01:44:51,080 --> 01:44:54,360
Speaker 1: of climate change, like driving species you know up the mountain,

1851
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,639
Speaker 1: off the mountain out west and here, you know, out

1852
01:44:57,680 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 1: of certain regions, you know, as things are getting hotter

1853
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,880
Speaker 1: and dryer or is you know, climates are becoming more extreme.

1854
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:05,920
Speaker 1: You know, here in the Atlantic we had one of

1855
01:45:05,960 --> 01:45:07,519
Speaker 1: the wettest years on record. I think it was like

1856
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:10,240
Speaker 1: five or seven, whereas in the Midwest they had droughts,

1857
01:45:10,280 --> 01:45:12,519
Speaker 1: but before that we had two years of drought, So

1858
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's more extreme, and that's that's just

1859
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:18,720
Speaker 1: starting to take part. But the extinctions and near extinctions

1860
01:45:19,040 --> 01:45:22,880
Speaker 1: have been mainly due to non native pest um. And

1861
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:25,639
Speaker 1: that's just most of it right there. Um, just because

1862
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,040
Speaker 1: we haven't really seen the start of climate change, yeah,

1863
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:31,479
Speaker 1: impacting diseases. So like out west with the mountain pinebealle,

1864
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:34,680
Speaker 1: you're seeing more generations of mountain pinebele comes through. I

1865
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:37,840
Speaker 1: was just doing a presentation for some folks in South

1866
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:41,320
Speaker 1: Dakota and something like a third of their total force

1867
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:46,560
Speaker 1: was impacted by mountain pine beetle. Jeez. And and what

1868
01:45:46,800 --> 01:45:48,720
Speaker 1: is that like when you actually talk about this, these

1869
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:52,040
Speaker 1: beetles coming in That's the kind of thing that even

1870
01:45:52,080 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 1: as we've gotten more comfortable talking about sort of of

1871
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:56,840
Speaker 1: of the different kind of collapses spawned by climate change,

1872
01:45:57,240 --> 01:46:00,000
Speaker 1: I think that they we tend to imagine more spectacle

1873
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:03,679
Speaker 1: peculiar things. These giants sweeping fires that burned through huge

1874
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,519
Speaker 1: chunks of states, and these huge like environmental calamities. What

1875
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:10,840
Speaker 1: is this like what happens when one of these beetles

1876
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:13,120
Speaker 1: hits a forest one of these beetles species obviously not

1877
01:46:13,280 --> 01:46:16,559
Speaker 1: like a singular beetle, Like what is actually like how

1878
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:19,519
Speaker 1: quick is the effect and what kind of comes after that? Like,

1879
01:46:19,640 --> 01:46:21,720
Speaker 1: I I know, there's sort of a shock wave. It's

1880
01:46:21,800 --> 01:46:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of like a bomb going off. I'm interested in

1881
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:25,960
Speaker 1: kind of tracing the root of that explosion, if that

1882
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:29,479
Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, So it depends species. Its pecs. Chestnut

1883
01:46:29,520 --> 01:46:31,240
Speaker 1: plate was really fast and it just seems to have

1884
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:34,360
Speaker 1: torn through the chest and stative range. So chest that

1885
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:37,919
Speaker 1: went from Florida to Maine and out west like Tennessee

1886
01:46:38,160 --> 01:46:41,160
Speaker 1: kind of area there um, and it just you know,

1887
01:46:41,360 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: in like something like fifteen years, the entire species gone.

1888
01:46:44,640 --> 01:46:46,960
Speaker 1: Emerald ash board has taken a little bit longer. Got

1889
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:48,680
Speaker 1: here in the eighties, started kind of going off in

1890
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:50,960
Speaker 1: the mid two thousands, and it's killed a couple of

1891
01:46:51,040 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 1: billion trees. So when that hits a small forest, you know,

1892
01:46:53,560 --> 01:46:55,920
Speaker 1: if it's a if it's a pretty you know, beetle,

1893
01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:58,920
Speaker 1: that kills pretty fast. Like emyld ashboard, it gets into

1894
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:01,599
Speaker 1: your trees. It starts with one or two and then

1895
01:47:01,680 --> 01:47:03,880
Speaker 1: within four or five years it's it's in most of

1896
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:06,720
Speaker 1: them in the forest, and then with emmoral lashboard they're

1897
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:09,960
Speaker 1: dead and five hemlock William delG It is pretty similar.

1898
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:12,200
Speaker 1: It'll just show up one day in a stand and

1899
01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:15,240
Speaker 1: then the hemlocks are dead within five seven years. Uh.

1900
01:47:15,520 --> 01:47:18,720
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes you know what's going on, you know,

1901
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:21,360
Speaker 1: because embal lashboard is very clear signs, and other times

1902
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:23,760
Speaker 1: you don't know what's going on because the tree can't

1903
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:25,519
Speaker 1: be so tall as all of a sudden, trees are

1904
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:28,560
Speaker 1: getting thinner and thinner and then they're dead, or you

1905
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:31,760
Speaker 1: have pests like um oak will and that in that

1906
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:34,519
Speaker 1: trees are dead, you know, in two months, and then

1907
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:36,599
Speaker 1: it spreads out like a circle. You know it kind

1908
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:40,320
Speaker 1: of exactly when you see like a bacteria like growth

1909
01:47:40,439 --> 01:47:43,560
Speaker 1: medium with the bacteria spreading out, that's oak spreads and

1910
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:45,760
Speaker 1: it's just like trees are dead, you know, two months

1911
01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:49,839
Speaker 1: and they spread out and out and out and scary sometimes.

1912
01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:52,320
Speaker 1: Is there anything that can be I mean it sounds

1913
01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:54,360
Speaker 1: like with with most of these cases, like with what's

1914
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:57,679
Speaker 1: happened with kind of like the chestnuts, and it's it's

1915
01:47:57,720 --> 01:47:59,559
Speaker 1: too late for a lot of that. Is there anything

1916
01:47:59,640 --> 01:48:01,800
Speaker 1: that can actually be done to stop this, Like, I know,

1917
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:04,760
Speaker 1: we have all these structures in place to try to

1918
01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:07,200
Speaker 1: stop the spread of invasive species, but like once they're

1919
01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:09,559
Speaker 1: in there, it kind of seems like usually we're fucked.

1920
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah ye that okay, Yeah, once you get past, like

1921
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,080
Speaker 1: there's what's called the invasive species establishment curve, so it's

1922
01:48:17,120 --> 01:48:19,519
Speaker 1: an escar, and once you get like right, like once

1923
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:21,400
Speaker 1: it starts taking up, it's like, oh, well, we're done here,

1924
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:25,160
Speaker 1: so let's let's start thinking about the future. And as

1925
01:48:25,200 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 1: you lose more species, like what do we do here?

1926
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:29,040
Speaker 1: Or if you're like you know, in the case of

1927
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:30,920
Speaker 1: the case of actions like this ash is going in

1928
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:33,120
Speaker 1: a swamp, I have nothing else that's going to grow here.

1929
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:36,960
Speaker 1: So now I just have an open wetland, like I

1930
01:48:37,040 --> 01:48:40,280
Speaker 1: can grow any native trees here were done. So the

1931
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:42,960
Speaker 1: biggest thing is preventioned like don't don't bring invasive species

1932
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:45,920
Speaker 1: in or non native species in. I was talking to

1933
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 1: a lady a couple of weeks ago, and she hasn't

1934
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:52,120
Speaker 1: rolled or not. She has hemlock William Deljion a property,

1935
01:48:52,479 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: and she brought in a bio control, or she assumed

1936
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 1: was a bio control from the Japan. It's a beetle,

1937
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:01,439
Speaker 1: and yeah, in this case it was one that had

1938
01:49:01,479 --> 01:49:03,360
Speaker 1: been tested and failed because it doesn't make it through

1939
01:49:03,400 --> 01:49:05,240
Speaker 1: the winter. But you know, stuff like that's like just

1940
01:49:05,439 --> 01:49:07,720
Speaker 1: just don't do that. You know, I areciate the thought there,

1941
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:10,800
Speaker 1: but don't with some of these species we have, you know,

1942
01:49:11,400 --> 01:49:13,640
Speaker 1: you know, like hew luckily adult, we have pesticides that

1943
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:15,679
Speaker 1: worked really well and that you apply the order the tree,

1944
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 1: and so it's like, all right, I treated this tree.

1945
01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:20,120
Speaker 1: This tree is good for seven years. Some of them,

1946
01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:22,360
Speaker 1: like Emerald, last boar, you're done. There's just nothing you

1947
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:27,360
Speaker 1: can do. So yeah, it's a prevention, prevention and then

1948
01:49:27,360 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 1: then you can quarantine. But then you know, it's like

1949
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:32,439
Speaker 1: where this county is done, So we're gonna just try

1950
01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:35,920
Speaker 1: to make sure that only this county dies. Jeez, you

1951
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:38,519
Speaker 1: mentioned a bit earlier like thinking about the future, what

1952
01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:40,320
Speaker 1: does that actually look like when when we hit a

1953
01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:42,200
Speaker 1: situation as we have with a lot of these species,

1954
01:49:42,240 --> 01:49:44,519
Speaker 1: were like, all right, well this ship's we ain't we

1955
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:48,679
Speaker 1: ain't stopping this. What is what like, what do people

1956
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 1: like you do next? Like what is the next kind

1957
01:49:51,120 --> 01:49:53,599
Speaker 1: of step for the forests or is it just sort

1958
01:49:53,640 --> 01:49:56,320
Speaker 1: of a smoke them all? You got them kind of thing. Uh,

1959
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:58,280
Speaker 1: sometimes it's smoke the while you got them. So like

1960
01:49:58,360 --> 01:50:00,880
Speaker 1: beach park diseases going through just roasting beach in the

1961
01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,680
Speaker 1: East Coast, it's going it's going to the Midwest and

1962
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:05,800
Speaker 1: so there it's kind of like, well, you know, if

1963
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:07,559
Speaker 1: it's in there and your beach or diet, take them

1964
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 1: out and if they're not, don't. There's it's nine fata,

1965
01:50:11,280 --> 01:50:13,840
Speaker 1: but there's one percent that can make it. So you know,

1966
01:50:14,160 --> 01:50:16,840
Speaker 1: like maybe we find that one percent and last words,

1967
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 1: nine percent fatal. But I've seen, you know, in the

1968
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:20,840
Speaker 1: past couple of years, I've seen two that made it.

1969
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:23,759
Speaker 1: So like if we don't cut them all, maybe someone survive.

1970
01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 1: Theoretically we could then like clone or breed or whatever

1971
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:30,960
Speaker 1: the trees that live and and a few generations have

1972
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:35,160
Speaker 1: more of them. Um, yeah, if other ship doesn't happen. Yeah,

1973
01:50:35,439 --> 01:50:36,840
Speaker 1: the chestnup project has been going on for the last

1974
01:50:36,920 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 1: hundred years, and it looks like I'll take about forty more.

1975
01:50:39,360 --> 01:50:41,519
Speaker 1: It's that's a controversial opinion. Some people say it's a

1976
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:46,040
Speaker 1: bastet forty but you know years Oh, the chestnup Foundation

1977
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 1: really it's a really neat thing. So there were some

1978
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:52,000
Speaker 1: chestnuts that were found resistant in some plant outside the

1979
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:54,479
Speaker 1: range of chestnut blite, and so the ideas where they

1980
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:58,080
Speaker 1: slowly started back breeding. So they crossed in Chinese chestnut,

1981
01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 1: which is resistant to the blight, which is native to

1982
01:51:00,840 --> 01:51:03,920
Speaker 1: China and East Asia, and so they crossed them in

1983
01:51:04,080 --> 01:51:06,920
Speaker 1: with the remaining chestnut with the hopes of you know,

1984
01:51:07,080 --> 01:51:10,440
Speaker 1: kind of eventually breeding out the Chinese but just maintaining

1985
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 1: the American chestnut and just getting that gene in there.

1986
01:51:14,560 --> 01:51:16,439
Speaker 1: And so they started that back in like the thirties

1987
01:51:16,479 --> 01:51:19,960
Speaker 1: and forties when they realized what was happening. Well, you know,

1988
01:51:20,120 --> 01:51:25,679
Speaker 1: today is two and we are still without American chestnut

1989
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 1: the forest. There are some backbread versions that are more resistant,

1990
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:32,120
Speaker 1: but they will still get in affected. I've been to

1991
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:35,080
Speaker 1: a couple of chestnut nurseries where they're doing experiments and

1992
01:51:35,160 --> 01:51:37,000
Speaker 1: it's it's sad because they'll they'll get up and then

1993
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:39,200
Speaker 1: they'll die. They'll get up and they'll die, and it's like, oh,

1994
01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:41,160
Speaker 1: there's two. There are two over there in the corner

1995
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 1: that made it, and those get you onto the next one.

1996
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,360
Speaker 1: But there is some work out of New York, Suny

1997
01:51:47,479 --> 01:51:51,040
Speaker 1: in New York where they altered a chestnut and they

1998
01:51:51,200 --> 01:51:54,360
Speaker 1: put in um. They just they just changed the genes.

1999
01:51:54,400 --> 01:51:58,479
Speaker 1: So the version of the genus makes chestnut play resistant

2000
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:01,320
Speaker 1: is in that and that's getting approved by the E

2001
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:03,760
Speaker 1: p A, F d A and U S d A.

2002
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:07,679
Speaker 1: Hopefully that gets approved. If that gets approved, we get real,

2003
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:11,559
Speaker 1: We get real further along because the resistant trees are

2004
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:14,519
Speaker 1: not the same as the American just the resistant trees

2005
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 1: are more they're shorter and more shrubby, and they don't

2006
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 1: fulfill the overstory and cannot be rolled. Chestnut used to

2007
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:25,680
Speaker 1: playing um. That's that's best case scenario. Worst case scenarios,

2008
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:30,120
Speaker 1: you're like um butternut, which was driven to functional extinction

2009
01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:32,360
Speaker 1: at the same time, and we're just nowhere on that produce,

2010
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:35,360
Speaker 1: working on some stuff, but it's nowhere. They're not in

2011
01:52:35,439 --> 01:52:41,160
Speaker 1: the woods now. How how much of like because I

2012
01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:44,080
Speaker 1: tend to roll my eyes pretty hard when we're talking

2013
01:52:44,120 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 1: in particular climate change and people are like, well, I

2014
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:48,800
Speaker 1: think that science is going to save our asses from

2015
01:52:48,800 --> 01:52:51,200
Speaker 1: this one. We're gonna we're gonna develop some like miraculous

2016
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:53,439
Speaker 1: carbon capture method and like at the last minute, we'll

2017
01:52:53,479 --> 01:52:55,960
Speaker 1: we'll we'll be able to reverse everything and it'll be fine.

2018
01:52:56,439 --> 01:52:58,000
Speaker 1: I tend to roll my eyes at that. But this,

2019
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:00,800
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm not obvious, I don't understand this that

2020
01:53:00,880 --> 01:53:02,720
Speaker 1: nearly the level you do. Is this kind of a

2021
01:53:02,800 --> 01:53:04,640
Speaker 1: thing where if there's hope for a lot of these

2022
01:53:04,680 --> 01:53:06,600
Speaker 1: species and a lot of these biomas, it's going to

2023
01:53:06,680 --> 01:53:08,559
Speaker 1: be and stuff like we figure out how to hack

2024
01:53:08,640 --> 01:53:11,600
Speaker 1: these trees to keep them alive, and and like, is

2025
01:53:11,720 --> 01:53:14,600
Speaker 1: that really kind of where we are? I know some

2026
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:18,200
Speaker 1: very good tree genesis and tree breeders, but I don't

2027
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:21,519
Speaker 1: think that they have the capabilities of, you know, coming

2028
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 1: up with trees that are resistant to all of the

2029
01:53:23,520 --> 01:53:26,320
Speaker 1: various fungi and bugs that are out there. And even

2030
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:28,200
Speaker 1: if they do, it's you know, you have to get

2031
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:29,840
Speaker 1: them out into the woods. You have to plant. We

2032
01:53:29,960 --> 01:53:33,000
Speaker 1: have million acres of forest. You've got to get them

2033
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:34,759
Speaker 1: out into the woods. You have to have the nurseries

2034
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,640
Speaker 1: to get them out. There's you know, even if you

2035
01:53:36,720 --> 01:53:39,120
Speaker 1: were able to create trees that resistant to all of

2036
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:42,400
Speaker 1: these pests, it would be impossible. So no, the only

2037
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:46,240
Speaker 1: the only answer is, uh, don't don't do climate change.

2038
01:53:46,400 --> 01:53:49,920
Speaker 1: And to the carbon captured perspective, the only machine that's

2039
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:51,920
Speaker 1: going to capture of the amount of carbon. We need

2040
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:55,840
Speaker 1: our trees. I do. I do forest carbon stuff, which

2041
01:53:55,920 --> 01:53:58,439
Speaker 1: is a whole different episode. I want to. I mean,

2042
01:53:58,479 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 1: I'm there. I'm extremely interested in that because obviously, like

2043
01:54:01,200 --> 01:54:03,800
Speaker 1: we've we've been supported by a couple of companies who

2044
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:05,160
Speaker 1: like one of the things they do to try to

2045
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:07,679
Speaker 1: be nice is they'll they'll plant trees and stuff, which

2046
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:11,080
Speaker 1: is not useless. But also a lot of people think

2047
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:13,880
Speaker 1: that that's what rebuilding a forest is, and like, no,

2048
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:16,360
Speaker 1: forests are a huge part of the problem with why

2049
01:54:16,400 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 1: the West is so flammable. As we chopped down all

2050
01:54:18,439 --> 01:54:21,720
Speaker 1: these trees and we grew back just the trees um

2051
01:54:21,880 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 1: to chop them down again, and that turns out to

2052
01:54:24,000 --> 01:54:26,600
Speaker 1: not be resilient at all to anything, because trees do

2053
01:54:26,720 --> 01:54:29,639
Speaker 1: not live on their own ever. Yeah, that's why it's

2054
01:54:29,640 --> 01:54:34,360
Speaker 1: a forest. It's not just right, yeah, no, it's yeah,

2055
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:39,800
Speaker 1: that's that's a planting. There's not the infrastructure to plant

2056
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:42,400
Speaker 1: our way of climate change. There's not the land. It's

2057
01:54:42,480 --> 01:54:46,080
Speaker 1: just impossible. And so even even if even if they're

2058
01:54:46,080 --> 01:54:48,560
Speaker 1: worthy infrastructure in the lane, that we don't have the time,

2059
01:54:49,240 --> 01:54:51,520
Speaker 1: because you know, trees take time to grow, they work

2060
01:54:51,560 --> 01:54:55,480
Speaker 1: at a different time scale than humans. Do even your

2061
01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:59,400
Speaker 1: your shortest lived trees sixty years. Yeah, and it is

2062
01:54:59,480 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 1: one of those things where I mean, we we have

2063
01:55:01,560 --> 01:55:03,440
Speaker 1: this is what we taught. We kind of started this

2064
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:06,000
Speaker 1: new season which is forever with which is that like

2065
01:55:06,600 --> 01:55:08,960
Speaker 1: there's no there's nothing we can do that will stop

2066
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:12,000
Speaker 1: us from continuing to face worse and worse because because

2067
01:55:12,240 --> 01:55:14,480
Speaker 1: like consequences of climate change, because the carbon has already

2068
01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:16,600
Speaker 1: been admitted, right, you can't just pull it out. Warming

2069
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:19,800
Speaker 1: is even if we were to like make very revolutionary

2070
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:22,840
Speaker 1: changes tomorrow, there's still some degree to which it's going

2071
01:55:22,960 --> 01:55:25,600
Speaker 1: to get worse. Um. But when it comes to like

2072
01:55:25,880 --> 01:55:29,360
Speaker 1: within your field, what like carbon capture using trees and stuff,

2073
01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:31,040
Speaker 1: can you talk to us about like what that actually

2074
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:33,640
Speaker 1: looks like as opposed to sort of the will plant

2075
01:55:33,680 --> 01:55:36,880
Speaker 1: a tree for every dollar you spend kind of thing. Um?

2076
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:39,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, I actually I actually can. It's I do

2077
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:45,720
Speaker 1: a lot of my work about forest carbon stuff. So yeah, Basically,

2078
01:55:46,200 --> 01:55:50,160
Speaker 1: the idea is to make sure you have the best

2079
01:55:50,240 --> 01:55:52,320
Speaker 1: way to get carbon c equestration of the force is

2080
01:55:52,400 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 1: to have a healthy, functioning forest. And that's you know,

2081
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of where these pests and climate change are interfering

2082
01:55:58,440 --> 01:56:00,800
Speaker 1: with that and so you know, to maintain a healthy

2083
01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:02,720
Speaker 1: functioning force in the East Coast. You know, some of

2084
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 1: these you need to have fire, some of them not.

2085
01:56:04,520 --> 01:56:06,520
Speaker 1: Some of them are too wet to burn. Uh. And

2086
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:08,680
Speaker 1: then you know, harvesting needs to take place in some

2087
01:56:08,760 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 1: of these. Some of these don't need to be harvested. Again,

2088
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:13,440
Speaker 1: we're talking, you know, millions of acres of you for

2089
01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:17,080
Speaker 1: us here, so we're gonna be incredibly broad and we've

2090
01:56:17,080 --> 01:56:19,920
Speaker 1: got to keep invasives out. You need to keep force

2091
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:22,880
Speaker 1: pest to a minimum, and then make sure that you're

2092
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:25,360
Speaker 1: managing the forest, you know, as best as it can

2093
01:56:25,400 --> 01:56:28,480
Speaker 1: be managed. And I say managed, this is not something new.

2094
01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:30,680
Speaker 1: Humans have been on the East Coast since you know,

2095
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:32,680
Speaker 1: it depends on the artifacts you want to look at

2096
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:35,720
Speaker 1: and what archaeologists you want to trust. But like five

2097
01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:39,040
Speaker 1: to twenty thousand years ago, and the last glaciers left

2098
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:41,680
Speaker 1: the East Coast eighteen thousand years ago, so we had

2099
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 1: people here before the glaciers were gone. So these forests

2100
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:48,000
Speaker 1: have never not had humans hands on them and never

2101
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 1: not been touched and manage by humans. Um, And you know,

2102
01:56:52,720 --> 01:56:54,320
Speaker 1: we gotta make sure we're doing the best we can.

2103
01:56:54,600 --> 01:56:56,520
Speaker 1: You know, some of That means that we're managing Force

2104
01:56:56,640 --> 01:56:58,440
Speaker 1: with what's best for you know, that means managing for

2105
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:00,600
Speaker 1: us for what's best with the worse in mind, not

2106
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:02,760
Speaker 1: with best, what's best for the end of the quarter,

2107
01:57:03,120 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 1: what's best for your bank account. That's hard to do

2108
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:09,760
Speaker 1: because Force are getting more and more expensive to manage

2109
01:57:09,840 --> 01:57:11,360
Speaker 1: and to you know, manage just anybody here in the

2110
01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:13,280
Speaker 1: East Coast. We gotta do a lot of fencing. We

2111
01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:15,480
Speaker 1: gotta keep deer out of force because their populations are

2112
01:57:15,560 --> 01:57:18,520
Speaker 1: so high, it's just ridiculously high, and they've never got

2113
01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:20,720
Speaker 1: to come back down. You know, we have to spray

2114
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:23,880
Speaker 1: invasive species, we have to pull invasive species. You've gotta

2115
01:57:23,920 --> 01:57:25,920
Speaker 1: go through and you've gotta make sure, you know, you're

2116
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:28,080
Speaker 1: you're preventing all these kinds of stuff. And so it

2117
01:57:28,120 --> 01:57:29,960
Speaker 1: can take you know, you can if you do a

2118
01:57:30,000 --> 01:57:32,720
Speaker 1: good shelter, would you can like make four th dollars

2119
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:34,040
Speaker 1: out of it, and then you could put all that

2120
01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 1: money back into growing your next generation of force. So

2121
01:57:36,760 --> 01:57:39,040
Speaker 1: Force she is really going from a profit making venture

2122
01:57:39,080 --> 01:57:41,320
Speaker 1: on a lot of cases to like you're barely making

2123
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:45,120
Speaker 1: money or you're you're like breaking even or losing money.

2124
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:47,760
Speaker 1: It's it's no longer you know, if you really want

2125
01:57:47,800 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: to do it, great, You're not always making money, which

2126
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,640
Speaker 1: is hard for people to get their head around. I mean,

2127
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:54,480
Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing that in a reasonable world,

2128
01:57:55,040 --> 01:57:57,800
Speaker 1: huge amounts of money would be adverted to from other things,

2129
01:57:57,920 --> 01:58:01,240
Speaker 1: like I don't know, thirty five, Um, I feel like

2130
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:03,400
Speaker 1: you guys could do a lot with one f thirty

2131
01:58:03,440 --> 01:58:06,040
Speaker 1: five worth of cash. I feel like that would solve

2132
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:07,960
Speaker 1: almost all of our problems. Yeah, because the problems that

2133
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:10,320
Speaker 1: you see in force we don't cost a lot to fix,

2134
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:12,640
Speaker 1: but it it costs a lot for a forest owner,

2135
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:15,760
Speaker 1: be that you know, an agency or person, it costs

2136
01:58:15,760 --> 01:58:18,600
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah. It's like all of the issues around

2137
01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:22,120
Speaker 1: climate change kind of all circle around, like growth based

2138
01:58:22,240 --> 01:58:26,240
Speaker 1: economics and a lot of the like nothing has a

2139
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:29,600
Speaker 1: shared cause, but they all have this similar aspect to

2140
01:58:29,720 --> 01:58:32,520
Speaker 1: them where yeah, every every part of them gets worse

2141
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:36,080
Speaker 1: by the extreme focus on economic growth at all costs

2142
01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:40,560
Speaker 1: and that suffers that that that makes everything and everyone suffer. So,

2143
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, it would be nice if since we have

2144
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: a government, it would be nice if they do, you know,

2145
01:58:44,760 --> 01:58:48,880
Speaker 1: give more funding towards uh, stuff like this type of

2146
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:51,400
Speaker 1: force management, which I know they do some, but you know,

2147
01:58:51,680 --> 01:58:53,280
Speaker 1: a fraction of it compared to what they give to

2148
01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:57,320
Speaker 1: like the Pentagon or you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I

2149
01:58:57,360 --> 01:59:00,400
Speaker 1: mean even big you know forceries technically agricultor but even

2150
01:59:00,520 --> 01:59:03,680
Speaker 1: like you know, like corn and like grow agriculture, it's

2151
01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:07,000
Speaker 1: a lot more. Yeah, they have they corners massive subsidies

2152
01:59:07,240 --> 01:59:11,440
Speaker 1: compared to compared to everything else. Yeah, like the NRCS,

2153
01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:14,120
Speaker 1: the Natural Resources Conservation Service, they do a lot with

2154
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, farm agriculture, and you know, they it's very

2155
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:20,800
Speaker 1: difficult for forest ollers to get that kind of money

2156
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:23,280
Speaker 1: into forest. If we could get you know, that money,

2157
01:59:23,400 --> 01:59:26,560
Speaker 1: it would be a game changer. But we're not there. Uh,

2158
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:30,080
Speaker 1: there is some change being made in the administration. But yeah,

2159
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:34,120
Speaker 1: that's like stuff and that doesn't help, doesn't help today.

2160
01:59:34,360 --> 01:59:39,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't still unpassed today. Yeah, you can't unkill trees. Yeah,

2161
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:44,720
Speaker 1: I guess is there anything that you're optimistic about within

2162
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:47,360
Speaker 1: your field right now? Like if you I think that

2163
01:59:47,400 --> 01:59:51,320
Speaker 1: would be handy both in terms of like is there

2164
01:59:51,360 --> 01:59:55,720
Speaker 1: any sort of is there a light at the end

2165
01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: of the tunnel um, Because I'll admit, like, when I

2166
01:59:59,440 --> 02:00:03,720
Speaker 1: think about not having the forests. That's pretty much the

2167
02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 1: most blackpilling thing I can imagine, like for myself, Like,

2168
02:00:06,640 --> 02:00:09,760
Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing that I have trouble coping

2169
02:00:09,800 --> 02:00:12,440
Speaker 1: with emotionally more than anything else. There's lots of horrible

2170
02:00:12,520 --> 02:00:15,960
Speaker 1: things about what's coming, but that's the one that like

2171
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 1: really scares me the most. Yeah, I don't think we're

2172
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:22,680
Speaker 1: gonna lose forests as a thing. They're just where to become.

2173
02:00:23,400 --> 02:00:26,480
Speaker 1: You know, if without things being done, they will become less.

2174
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:28,400
Speaker 1: They're gonna be fewer of them, and they're gonna become

2175
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:31,760
Speaker 1: much less diverse and functioning. You know. For a lot

2176
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:34,680
Speaker 1: of these you know, invasive species, be they plants, you know,

2177
02:00:35,120 --> 02:00:36,800
Speaker 1: especially in basive plants, we have a lot of We

2178
02:00:36,920 --> 02:00:39,000
Speaker 1: know how to control them. I was just writing a

2179
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:42,200
Speaker 1: thing about controlling wavy basket grass. Wavy leaf basket grass.

2180
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:45,040
Speaker 1: It's a new invasive species to my area. It's highly

2181
02:00:45,120 --> 02:00:47,440
Speaker 1: controllable and we know how to do it. It's just

2182
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:50,200
Speaker 1: again a question of people, you know, getting out there

2183
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 1: and money to do it. You know, if we have

2184
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:55,000
Speaker 1: the people of the money, we can solve that problem.

2185
02:00:55,040 --> 02:00:56,920
Speaker 1: Oh also we stop you know bringing that in the

2186
02:00:57,080 --> 02:01:00,360
Speaker 1: bat even better, we you know actually took you know,

2187
02:01:00,440 --> 02:01:03,440
Speaker 1: i PM is hard, not i PM, but quarantine and

2188
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:06,120
Speaker 1: pest management seriously, and you know, people like stopped throwing

2189
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:09,040
Speaker 1: you know they look like plant out into the park

2190
02:01:09,240 --> 02:01:10,640
Speaker 1: just because like I don't want to kill it, Like

2191
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:13,480
Speaker 1: let's let it be free. Don't do that goldfish, don't

2192
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 1: don't throw them in the lake. That's why you have

2193
02:01:16,120 --> 02:01:18,880
Speaker 1: huge goldfish coming out of Lake Florida. Don't. Don't just

2194
02:01:18,960 --> 02:01:21,160
Speaker 1: cut pets loose and stuff like that. And if we

2195
02:01:21,200 --> 02:01:22,840
Speaker 1: can get a lot of that under control, will be

2196
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:24,760
Speaker 1: in a lot better place. Again, I don't think they

2197
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:28,000
Speaker 1: forced to disappearing in the future unmanaged. I think they

2198
02:01:28,120 --> 02:01:31,080
Speaker 1: just become fewer and less diverse and less function and

2199
02:01:31,120 --> 02:01:33,839
Speaker 1: then you lose spaces species based on them, like birds,

2200
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, wildlife, all that kind of stuff. And also

2201
02:01:37,680 --> 02:01:40,200
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that also they have

2202
02:01:40,320 --> 02:01:43,240
Speaker 1: to become less accessible, both because there will be less

2203
02:01:43,280 --> 02:01:46,040
Speaker 1: of the man um as things get more fragile, Like

2204
02:01:46,160 --> 02:01:48,560
Speaker 1: how else do you keep some of these invasive species

2205
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:50,960
Speaker 1: out but keeping people out, which is I think a

2206
02:01:51,080 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: bad move for a lot of reasons. But I don't know.

2207
02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:59,200
Speaker 1: I also don't know, like is it possible to have

2208
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:02,840
Speaker 1: a global society where there is not just trade but

2209
02:02:02,920 --> 02:02:05,080
Speaker 1: the movement of people on a wide scale, and not

2210
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:09,720
Speaker 1: have this kind of ship crossing. Right. Like, that's when

2211
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:12,400
Speaker 1: I think about as as someone who's more or less

2212
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:15,040
Speaker 1: an anarchist. When I think about the only things that

2213
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:18,400
Speaker 1: a border should exist to do, it's it's keep stuff

2214
02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:19,920
Speaker 1: like that out. But I just I don't know how

2215
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:22,280
Speaker 1: possible that is, Like a lot of this stuff is.

2216
02:02:23,080 --> 02:02:25,360
Speaker 1: I mean, is this the kind of thing that's just

2217
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:28,600
Speaker 1: spread by carelessness? Because it kind of seems like it

2218
02:02:28,680 --> 02:02:30,840
Speaker 1: can be spread to by people who think they're taking

2219
02:02:30,920 --> 02:02:34,520
Speaker 1: care Yeah, and both is the answer. There's some very

2220
02:02:34,560 --> 02:02:38,280
Speaker 1: good research out there about the relativeness between global trade

2221
02:02:38,680 --> 02:02:41,400
Speaker 1: and you know, invasive species. But that also you look

2222
02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:44,680
Speaker 1: at like colonialism and colonial societies. There are these things

2223
02:02:44,800 --> 02:02:48,560
Speaker 1: called introductory societies who long get the name wrong, but

2224
02:02:48,720 --> 02:02:50,960
Speaker 1: basically there are clubs. It's like, all right, I would

2225
02:02:50,960 --> 02:02:52,640
Speaker 1: like clubs of people like I would like to see

2226
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:55,320
Speaker 1: this new place that I live in, like the old place.

2227
02:02:55,400 --> 02:02:57,920
Speaker 1: Like the European starling was introduced in New York because

2228
02:02:58,080 --> 02:03:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, one guy, I wanted to see all the

2229
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:04,440
Speaker 1: birds of Shakespeare in Christ. Oh, I get even better

2230
02:03:04,520 --> 02:03:08,160
Speaker 1: for one for you. The moth formerly known as gypsy

2231
02:03:08,200 --> 02:03:10,040
Speaker 1: moth as seem as I'm gonna say that word um

2232
02:03:10,440 --> 02:03:12,960
Speaker 1: is now found in America because of this one guy.

2233
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:15,040
Speaker 1: I'll put the name of the chat for you so

2234
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:16,200
Speaker 1: you can say it, because I know how much you

2235
02:03:16,280 --> 02:03:26,200
Speaker 1: love saying French names. This most here comes the wave

2236
02:03:26,280 --> 02:03:31,760
Speaker 1: of comb it's a better anti French racism. Oh yeah,

2237
02:03:32,240 --> 02:03:36,920
Speaker 1: oh I know it doesn't matter. We still get well,

2238
02:03:37,400 --> 02:03:41,480
Speaker 1: nobody does about my Italian accent. It's just the French.

2239
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 1: It's once again the Italians deserve it as well. Yeah,

2240
02:03:45,600 --> 02:03:48,960
Speaker 1: but they tell us about at end. Yeah. So so

2241
02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:52,200
Speaker 1: this guy, he was a French scientist who who left France.

2242
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:53,640
Speaker 1: He came to the US for a little while. He

2243
02:03:53,840 --> 02:03:58,640
Speaker 1: got Massachusetts. He was also also an amateur entomologist, and

2244
02:03:58,760 --> 02:04:00,600
Speaker 1: he was like, oh, you know what I think American

2245
02:04:00,680 --> 02:04:02,600
Speaker 1: needs is I think they need a silk industry. Now

2246
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:05,360
Speaker 1: they have a negative silk moth. It doesn't produce good silk,

2247
02:04:05,440 --> 02:04:09,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't breed fast. So he brought in the la matric.

2248
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:11,640
Speaker 1: I gotta do the scientific name because we changed the

2249
02:04:11,720 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 1: name on it because the common name is a slur.

2250
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:17,920
Speaker 1: So we're not doing so la Matria disparo. So he

2251
02:04:18,040 --> 02:04:20,880
Speaker 1: brought this this moth in from Europe. Uh, and he

2252
02:04:21,200 --> 02:04:23,120
Speaker 1: started trying to breathe these two moths, which are not

2253
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:26,560
Speaker 1: related at all. It didn't work, obviously, and then he

2254
02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:28,280
Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, he went he went off

2255
02:04:28,320 --> 02:04:29,920
Speaker 1: to be an astronomer, and he just let these moths

2256
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:32,560
Speaker 1: go in his backyard and he didn't tell anyone they

2257
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:34,280
Speaker 1: were there. And then all of a sudden these things

2258
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:38,080
Speaker 1: escaped and now they're killing trees, you know, across the

2259
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:41,040
Speaker 1: eastern United States, and they're in Washington, Oregon. I think

2260
02:04:41,080 --> 02:04:45,520
Speaker 1: they're in DC a little bit too. So yeah, that's

2261
02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:48,160
Speaker 1: that's that's that's such a good parable, like a parallel

2262
02:04:48,240 --> 02:04:51,200
Speaker 1: to the invasive species that is French people. That really

2263
02:04:51,240 --> 02:04:55,280
Speaker 1: does just tie up all all aspects of that amazing.

2264
02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:58,440
Speaker 1: It makes me think a lot everything you're saying about

2265
02:04:58,480 --> 02:05:01,520
Speaker 1: kut Zoo, which which is in the I've heard some

2266
02:05:01,640 --> 02:05:03,560
Speaker 1: people say they're getting a handle on it. I don't

2267
02:05:03,600 --> 02:05:06,160
Speaker 1: know how to evaluate that at the moment, but when

2268
02:05:06,200 --> 02:05:08,040
Speaker 1: I was last living down there, it was just like

2269
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:13,240
Speaker 1: devouring the entire southeast. Yeah, you can handle it again,

2270
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:15,400
Speaker 1: if you want to spray it, you can. You can

2271
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:17,240
Speaker 1: get what's called it chew groove. So a bunch of goats,

2272
02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:19,520
Speaker 1: you can get a handle on it. But again that's

2273
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:21,800
Speaker 1: money and effort. So it's just a question. So you

2274
02:05:21,840 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 1: do get delicious, delicious goat made? Oh my gosh, I

2275
02:05:25,080 --> 02:05:27,560
Speaker 1: tell you what. The people who do goat invasive management

2276
02:05:27,600 --> 02:05:30,480
Speaker 1: they haven't made. Would they rent goats out to people?

2277
02:05:30,560 --> 02:05:33,640
Speaker 1: They get paid for the goats and they also get

2278
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:35,920
Speaker 1: their goats fence? Would they slaughter them? They even pay that?

2279
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:38,600
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good business model as someone with

2280
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:44,240
Speaker 1: a couple of goats. That does sound like the dream. Yeah. God,

2281
02:05:45,240 --> 02:05:47,200
Speaker 1: they don't work on all the invasive species I do.

2282
02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:50,080
Speaker 1: There are folks and they probably don't eat those beetles.

2283
02:05:50,200 --> 02:05:52,840
Speaker 1: Huh no. No. They also don't like plants with thorns

2284
02:05:52,840 --> 02:05:56,360
Speaker 1: on them either, and it's very few goats can handle

2285
02:05:56,400 --> 02:06:00,280
Speaker 1: an entire French person either. So yeah, we can't can't

2286
02:06:00,280 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 1: trust the goats to solve all these problems for us.

2287
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 1: It is nice that they're helping. Um, I don't know,

2288
02:06:05,840 --> 02:06:11,040
Speaker 1: so I try to. Are there things either in terms

2289
02:06:11,080 --> 02:06:13,440
Speaker 1: of like it acts people can take, or probably more

2290
02:06:13,560 --> 02:06:16,800
Speaker 1: more realistically, organizations people could support that you think are

2291
02:06:16,840 --> 02:06:21,760
Speaker 1: actually helping try to stop as much of the woods

2292
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,960
Speaker 1: from going bad as fast or reverse the some of

2293
02:06:25,000 --> 02:06:26,760
Speaker 1: the stuff we've been talking about today, like how can

2294
02:06:26,960 --> 02:06:29,800
Speaker 1: we try to have some some room for people to

2295
02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:32,760
Speaker 1: do something, if if there is anything people can do

2296
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:35,400
Speaker 1: other than check your fucking shoes for beetles when you

2297
02:06:35,440 --> 02:06:39,240
Speaker 1: come back from wherever, burn all of your clothing anytime

2298
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:42,480
Speaker 1: you leave the state. Okay, that's that's a good start.

2299
02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:44,400
Speaker 1: That's a really good start. Not even to say sometimes

2300
02:06:44,480 --> 02:06:47,640
Speaker 1: it's the county to stop. When you go on a

2301
02:06:47,720 --> 02:06:49,960
Speaker 1: road trip, you stop your car at the county line

2302
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,720
Speaker 1: and you roll it off of a cliff with tanner

2303
02:06:52,800 --> 02:06:55,280
Speaker 1: righte and just let it burn. But don't don't push

2304
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:56,920
Speaker 1: out of the woods. We've seen that. How not into

2305
02:06:56,920 --> 02:07:01,320
Speaker 1: the woods, No, into the ocean where eadings fine, Yeah,

2306
02:07:01,520 --> 02:07:04,560
Speaker 1: they say that's what they say about the ocean. Great.

2307
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:07,400
Speaker 1: I tell people I work between the farm field and

2308
02:07:07,440 --> 02:07:09,440
Speaker 1: the stream. I don't do stream or water stuff because

2309
02:07:09,440 --> 02:07:11,280
Speaker 1: it's chemistry in there, so I don't know what happens

2310
02:07:11,320 --> 02:07:14,480
Speaker 1: over there. That's fine. I assume everything is great there.

2311
02:07:14,800 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 1: It does seem to be going fine. Yah Um. I

2312
02:07:19,240 --> 02:07:20,640
Speaker 1: think the best thing that you could do is in

2313
02:07:20,720 --> 02:07:23,920
Speaker 1: individuals is don't cut random stuff loose. Learn the plants

2314
02:07:23,960 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 1: of your area. Yeah, learn what's around you and what

2315
02:07:27,440 --> 02:07:29,560
Speaker 1: should be there. And like when you see something that

2316
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:32,600
Speaker 1: shouldn't be there and you know it's invasive, remove it

2317
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:36,720
Speaker 1: were legally possible, obviously, don't go like someone's like arboretum

2318
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:39,000
Speaker 1: and it's like slight pulling plants out. It'd be real bad,

2319
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:46,000
Speaker 1: burned down small farms wherever you find. Yeah, oh man,

2320
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:48,760
Speaker 1: the egg people will not be happy about that. But yeah,

2321
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:52,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not gonna say anything. Um So I think,

2322
02:07:52,400 --> 02:07:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, learned plants trees is neat um. And then

2323
02:07:55,640 --> 02:07:58,720
Speaker 1: if you um, you know, think of if you're thinking about, like,

2324
02:07:58,960 --> 02:08:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, how can you help manage force? You know,

2325
02:08:01,040 --> 02:08:03,720
Speaker 1: if you lots of people either own forests or people

2326
02:08:03,720 --> 02:08:06,640
Speaker 1: who owned force, and you know, encourage them to get

2327
02:08:06,680 --> 02:08:08,800
Speaker 1: a forest management plan or land management plan and get that.

2328
02:08:09,120 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 1: And then also if you've got a lawn, rip your

2329
02:08:11,320 --> 02:08:15,560
Speaker 1: lawn out again where possible and use native plants. I do.

2330
02:08:15,800 --> 02:08:18,360
Speaker 1: I do some you know some lawn change stuff. And

2331
02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:20,400
Speaker 1: it's just frustrating the amount of lawns out there. It's like,

2332
02:08:20,600 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, one of these people one of these reasons

2333
02:08:21,840 --> 02:08:24,240
Speaker 1: we're losing so many you know, birds, and we have

2334
02:08:24,360 --> 02:08:27,360
Speaker 1: fewer birds and bird species because like they can't eat grass.

2335
02:08:27,960 --> 02:08:30,720
Speaker 1: You see, these things eat fruits and insects and seeds

2336
02:08:31,080 --> 02:08:34,120
Speaker 1: which you don't get in grass. So you know, if

2337
02:08:34,160 --> 02:08:37,360
Speaker 1: you don't own a forest, that's fine, and I'm I'm

2338
02:08:37,400 --> 02:08:38,920
Speaker 1: a huge advocate of that. I try to be on

2339
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:40,680
Speaker 1: the show and people, again, we always get this thing

2340
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:42,440
Speaker 1: where there are people who will critique when we talk

2341
02:08:42,480 --> 02:08:45,280
Speaker 1: about some of these small scale solutions' is like, oh,

2342
02:08:45,400 --> 02:08:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, turning your turning your lawn into a permac

2343
02:08:49,280 --> 02:08:51,960
Speaker 1: culture garden with local species isn't going to like produce

2344
02:08:52,080 --> 02:08:54,040
Speaker 1: enough food to feed your families. Like, no, it's not

2345
02:08:54,120 --> 02:08:57,240
Speaker 1: about that. If you could get a couple of thousand

2346
02:08:57,280 --> 02:08:59,560
Speaker 1: people to do it, and they convince another couple and

2347
02:08:59,640 --> 02:09:01,320
Speaker 1: like so on and so on and so on, then suddenly,

2348
02:09:01,920 --> 02:09:05,360
Speaker 1: if you're increasing significantly the amount of carbon sequestered by

2349
02:09:05,440 --> 02:09:07,800
Speaker 1: that lawn and you're also making a better habitat for

2350
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:10,880
Speaker 1: birds and whatnot, that that scales. That is a thing

2351
02:09:10,960 --> 02:09:13,280
Speaker 1: that scales. If we got a significant number of people

2352
02:09:13,320 --> 02:09:16,320
Speaker 1: with lawns to replace them with something like we're talking

2353
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:19,640
Speaker 1: about kill kill that grass, that almost certainly isn't fucking

2354
02:09:19,720 --> 02:09:22,200
Speaker 1: native to your area. Plant stuff that is, and and

2355
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:25,640
Speaker 1: and try to reintegrate at least your lawn back into

2356
02:09:25,680 --> 02:09:29,160
Speaker 1: the local ecology. If you got a million Americans to

2357
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:34,520
Speaker 1: do a version of that, that's not an insignificant thing. Um. Yeah.

2358
02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:37,360
Speaker 1: And it is something that you can do in a

2359
02:09:37,400 --> 02:09:39,880
Speaker 1: lot of states. There's programs to support it. In my state,

2360
02:09:39,960 --> 02:09:43,440
Speaker 1: there's a program specifically for like changing lawns over and

2361
02:09:43,640 --> 02:09:46,240
Speaker 1: that program is backed up there out of money until

2362
02:09:47,360 --> 02:09:51,320
Speaker 1: they spent it all already. There's definitely interest there them

2363
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,120
Speaker 1: a thirty five. Let me sell it to whoever whoever.

2364
02:09:54,360 --> 02:09:56,560
Speaker 1: Anyone gets it if they want it, it just goes

2365
02:09:56,640 --> 02:09:59,080
Speaker 1: up on Craigslist, all right, Yeah, put it on Craigslist,

2366
02:10:00,080 --> 02:10:03,240
Speaker 1: give it to the highest bidder. Um. The other thing

2367
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:05,440
Speaker 1: you can do is go outside, like support your local

2368
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:08,240
Speaker 1: land management agency. Most of these, like forest Service and

2369
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:12,400
Speaker 1: park Service, they depend on money spent by users to

2370
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:15,640
Speaker 1: go spend money at the forest. The only thing people

2371
02:10:15,640 --> 02:10:18,680
Speaker 1: can do your fucking boots first though, Oh yeah, definitely that.

2372
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:21,520
Speaker 1: And don't don't bring shit in. Don't don't bring your

2373
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:24,400
Speaker 1: like weird thing in, like your weird plan, because you

2374
02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:29,960
Speaker 1: don't want to kill it, kill your entirely seed based diet. Yeah,

2375
02:10:30,520 --> 02:10:33,720
Speaker 1: if you don't, If you hunt, great, that supports conservation.

2376
02:10:34,000 --> 02:10:35,800
Speaker 1: If you don't want to hunt, you can still buy

2377
02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:39,040
Speaker 1: duck stamps and these other things that support wildlife management.

2378
02:10:39,400 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 1: In the US, wildlife is funded by the users, So

2379
02:10:43,280 --> 02:10:45,640
Speaker 1: those people who buy guns and AMMO, you buy arch

2380
02:10:45,680 --> 02:10:47,680
Speaker 1: your equipment, and who buy hunting licenses. So if you

2381
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:49,960
Speaker 1: want to support wildlife, the best thing you can do

2382
02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:52,040
Speaker 1: is buy a hunting license, even if you don't hunt.

2383
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:56,280
Speaker 1: That's it's kind of counterintuitive, but it's the core of

2384
02:10:56,360 --> 02:10:59,320
Speaker 1: the North American model of wildlife. Yeah, yeah, that's a

2385
02:10:59,360 --> 02:11:01,000
Speaker 1: really good point, and it is one of the It's

2386
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:02,800
Speaker 1: also one of those areas when we talk about ways

2387
02:11:02,840 --> 02:11:07,440
Speaker 1: in which theoretically there's room to build in roads between

2388
02:11:08,040 --> 02:11:11,360
Speaker 1: left and right in this country, conservation and hunting should

2389
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:13,440
Speaker 1: be one right. And there are hunters on the right

2390
02:11:13,440 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 1: who were actually talking a pretty good, like reasonably about conservation,

2391
02:11:17,520 --> 02:11:20,360
Speaker 1: Like it is an area of shared interest. Everybody likes

2392
02:11:21,240 --> 02:11:23,720
Speaker 1: wild places, so just quote unquote wild We just talked

2393
02:11:23,720 --> 02:11:25,840
Speaker 1: about how none of them are actually wild. They've all

2394
02:11:25,880 --> 02:11:28,480
Speaker 1: existed with human beings for forever. But like, yeah, we like.

2395
02:11:28,680 --> 02:11:32,560
Speaker 1: We like the outdoors, yes, the outdoors. Yeah. Well and

2396
02:11:32,880 --> 02:11:35,160
Speaker 1: what you know, people have been like, so I my

2397
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:40,360
Speaker 1: cross blows right over there. Crossbow, Yeah, you don't have

2398
02:11:40,440 --> 02:11:45,320
Speaker 1: to get a gun. I have been wanted to get

2399
02:11:45,520 --> 02:11:48,600
Speaker 1: crossbow pilled for a while now. Oh yeah, I wouldn't

2400
02:11:48,600 --> 02:11:52,680
Speaker 1: mind getting crossbow killed myself. That shoulder holster for a

2401
02:11:52,760 --> 02:12:01,000
Speaker 1: crossbow there we go. Oh yeah, that's great. That's yeah. No,

2402
02:12:01,160 --> 02:12:03,520
Speaker 1: this is not a super expensive one, but it's pretty

2403
02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:06,640
Speaker 1: much a rifle. Yeah, I mean ballistically at the range.

2404
02:12:06,680 --> 02:12:10,040
Speaker 1: Is you use them, there's not any meaningful difference really. Yeah.

2405
02:12:10,360 --> 02:12:12,240
Speaker 1: And if you're a person who you know doesn't like guns,

2406
02:12:12,280 --> 02:12:15,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't trust yourself around them. Uh, they're very safe.

2407
02:12:16,040 --> 02:12:17,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, get get you one of those if you want.

2408
02:12:17,920 --> 02:12:20,280
Speaker 1: It's a fun time cross I also like it a

2409
02:12:20,360 --> 02:12:24,800
Speaker 1: lot more than my, uh my guns because it doesn't

2410
02:12:24,840 --> 02:12:28,880
Speaker 1: yet coil. But that's enough about that. Well that's great. Um,

2411
02:12:29,080 --> 02:12:30,800
Speaker 1: is there anything else you wanted to get into Calvin

2412
02:12:30,840 --> 02:12:34,560
Speaker 1: before we kind of roll out today? Uh? You touched

2413
02:12:34,600 --> 02:12:37,400
Speaker 1: on forest carbon stuff. That's a whole man a bunch

2414
02:12:37,400 --> 02:12:40,280
Speaker 1: of stuff on that that's a whole other world. I

2415
02:12:40,400 --> 02:12:42,560
Speaker 1: am interested in talking more about that, but perhaps we

2416
02:12:42,560 --> 02:12:46,320
Speaker 1: should do have a dedicated entire thing. I mean, we

2417
02:12:46,360 --> 02:12:48,400
Speaker 1: should definitely dedicate an entire thing that that. It's an

2418
02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:51,560
Speaker 1: incredibly important subject UM and I think there's a lot

2419
02:12:51,640 --> 02:12:54,200
Speaker 1: to say about how different um indigenous groups have been.

2420
02:12:54,280 --> 02:12:56,480
Speaker 1: Like up in the Northwest in particular, we have a

2421
02:12:56,520 --> 02:12:59,240
Speaker 1: lot of um kind of tribal efforts at stuff like

2422
02:12:59,320 --> 02:13:01,240
Speaker 1: not just with with the forest, but also with like

2423
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:04,160
Speaker 1: the coastline and whatnot in rebuilding certain populations along the

2424
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:07,200
Speaker 1: coast in the Midwest. When I'm does a great job

2425
02:13:07,280 --> 02:13:10,080
Speaker 1: with forest management, I'm actually doing a webinar thing about

2426
02:13:10,240 --> 02:13:12,120
Speaker 1: one of our forest pestons. We're having thene come talk

2427
02:13:12,160 --> 02:13:14,480
Speaker 1: about their management. Well we invited them. I'm not actually

2428
02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:15,920
Speaker 1: sure if they're going to do it yet, but the

2429
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:17,800
Speaker 1: practice we use is based on what they use it there.

2430
02:13:17,880 --> 02:13:23,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's really cool what various first nations do. Yeah,

2431
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 1: I just want to plug trees. Yeah, my favorite type

2432
02:13:29,160 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: of tree probably the redwood. Used to live in Arcade

2433
02:13:32,360 --> 02:13:34,480
Speaker 1: to go running in them every day. Um, I know

2434
02:13:34,560 --> 02:13:36,360
Speaker 1: that's kind of a cliche answer, what's your what's your

2435
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:39,200
Speaker 1: favorite tree? This is one behind me here, No one

2436
02:13:39,240 --> 02:13:41,840
Speaker 1: can see my background it's white oak. You can't make

2437
02:13:41,880 --> 02:13:45,440
Speaker 1: a white oaks. So, yeah, that is an impolitant tree.

2438
02:13:46,080 --> 02:13:47,760
Speaker 1: Forest products are like one of the only things that

2439
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:51,120
Speaker 1: supports supports forest management. So it supports forest so you

2440
02:13:51,200 --> 02:13:54,360
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to use, you know, sustainably managed wood

2441
02:13:54,440 --> 02:13:59,960
Speaker 1: and wood products finds capitalism and drink a shipload of

2442
02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:05,600
Speaker 1: bourbon always a good call. Really, Um? All right, well,

2443
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:10,840
Speaker 1: Calvin Norman, any any less plugable to plug? Um plants? Uh?

2444
02:14:10,880 --> 02:14:13,480
Speaker 1: If you won't learn plants, that's great. You want to

2445
02:14:13,560 --> 02:14:15,320
Speaker 1: learn about what's going on your native you know your

2446
02:14:15,360 --> 02:14:17,160
Speaker 1: areas around you. There's lots of groups that do that.

2447
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:19,440
Speaker 1: Your local extension service helps you out with a lot

2448
02:14:19,600 --> 02:14:22,880
Speaker 1: that most of their stuff is free. So plug that. Yeah,

2449
02:14:22,960 --> 02:14:27,480
Speaker 1: go outside and plug that. I don't do twitter good. Yeah,

2450
02:14:27,680 --> 02:14:31,800
Speaker 1: all right, well go outside, hugg a tree. Calvin Norman,

2451
02:14:31,960 --> 02:14:34,560
Speaker 1: thank you again so much for coming on. Um. If

2452
02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:36,920
Speaker 1: you want to see Calan's original thread, just type in

2453
02:14:37,040 --> 02:14:40,760
Speaker 1: the woods are bad, uh, and it could happen here,

2454
02:14:40,800 --> 02:14:42,400
Speaker 1: read it, or just go to the it could happen here,

2455
02:14:42,440 --> 02:14:44,920
Speaker 1: read it and scroll down a bit you'll find it. Um.

2456
02:14:45,440 --> 02:14:49,440
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it for us today until tomorrow. Go

2457
02:14:49,560 --> 02:14:51,600
Speaker 1: out into the woods. Who out into the woods, But

2458
02:14:51,640 --> 02:15:08,880
Speaker 1: wash your fucking boots first. It could happen. Here is

2459
02:15:08,960 --> 02:15:12,760
Speaker 1: the podcast. You're listening to with your ears or perhaps

2460
02:15:12,880 --> 02:15:15,280
Speaker 1: other parts of your body if you have, I don't know,

2461
02:15:16,120 --> 02:15:20,760
Speaker 1: some bizarre form of synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um,

2462
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:24,640
Speaker 1: maybe you're tasting us right now. In which case, UM,

2463
02:15:24,880 --> 02:15:28,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my

2464
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:32,560
Speaker 1: co host Garrison UM and our guest for today. Why

2465
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:35,200
Speaker 1: don't you take over now, Garrison, I've done my job. Great.

2466
02:15:35,480 --> 02:15:38,760
Speaker 1: That sounds lovely. Yeah, Hey, Garrison, here could happen. Here

2467
02:15:39,280 --> 02:15:42,560
Speaker 1: is the podcast. We have a special guest today. UH

2468
02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 1: journalisten researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so good

2469
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:50,280
Speaker 1: to be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution the Police

2470
02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:54,040
Speaker 1: Insurrection Daily. Thank you, thank you, lovely to have you. UM.

2471
02:15:54,600 --> 02:15:57,920
Speaker 1: A lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like surbet.

2472
02:15:58,120 --> 02:16:02,360
Speaker 1: By the way, it's a comment. Get a lot, a lot, lot,

2473
02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:06,080
Speaker 1: lot a lot of those d M s. Um you surprised,

2474
02:16:06,120 --> 02:16:10,320
Speaker 1: not that. UM. So we're gonna be talking about something

2475
02:16:10,400 --> 02:16:13,680
Speaker 1: I've wanted to actually bring up myself for a while now,

2476
02:16:14,040 --> 02:16:15,320
Speaker 1: but I just have not put it the work in

2477
02:16:15,640 --> 02:16:18,000
Speaker 1: and now luckily someone else did the actual work, so

2478
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:20,680
Speaker 1: we now we could just talk about it. We're talking

2479
02:16:20,680 --> 02:16:25,880
Speaker 1: about something called a disclosed TV UM, which is a

2480
02:16:25,960 --> 02:16:29,080
Speaker 1: broad range of things. It's not it's not just one thing. Uh,

2481
02:16:29,400 --> 02:16:32,000
Speaker 1: And I guess I'll hand it over to the person

2482
02:16:32,040 --> 02:16:34,200
Speaker 1: who did the actual work in terms of like how

2483
02:16:34,360 --> 02:16:37,680
Speaker 1: how would you describe what disclosed TV is? But but

2484
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:40,320
Speaker 1: like before we get into like the journey of the

2485
02:16:40,520 --> 02:16:44,880
Speaker 1: platform and thing like what like what is it? Yeah, UM,

2486
02:16:45,160 --> 02:16:48,000
Speaker 1: let me start this off by saying, I'm already before

2487
02:16:48,080 --> 02:16:52,560
Speaker 1: the publication of the article been publicly threatened vaguely with

2488
02:16:52,720 --> 02:16:57,440
Speaker 1: legal action from Disclosed TV, so that will be largely

2489
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:00,280
Speaker 1: informing what I say today. But we do have a

2490
02:17:00,400 --> 02:17:04,520
Speaker 1: lot of receipts. Um, you have very scary lawyers here,

2491
02:17:04,600 --> 02:17:10,039
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm I'm excited whatever happens, So feel free

2492
02:17:10,080 --> 02:17:13,120
Speaker 1: to say whatever you want to say. But UM, Disclosed

2493
02:17:13,160 --> 02:17:17,680
Speaker 1: TV markets itself and presents itself as a news aggregator

2494
02:17:18,400 --> 02:17:24,280
Speaker 1: UM operating Twitter, UM Telegram, gab get or. They have

2495
02:17:24,360 --> 02:17:27,520
Speaker 1: a Facebook as well as well as the main site,

2496
02:17:27,600 --> 02:17:35,120
Speaker 1: where they host what one could describe as articles as well, yeah,

2497
02:17:35,520 --> 02:17:40,280
Speaker 1: and I think Disclosed TV for our purposes, despite like

2498
02:17:40,400 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 1: they have a very large Facebook presence UM, but the

2499
02:17:44,800 --> 02:17:48,080
Speaker 1: way that we usually interact with them, specifically like me

2500
02:17:48,160 --> 02:17:50,760
Speaker 1: and Robert and then other people who are like journalists

2501
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:54,840
Speaker 1: orge to antifascist researchers, usually we interact with Disclosed TV

2502
02:17:55,040 --> 02:17:58,480
Speaker 1: on Telegram or through Twitter um. Twitter through like it's

2503
02:17:58,480 --> 02:18:00,240
Speaker 1: how they like break a lot of current events in

2504
02:18:00,360 --> 02:18:02,400
Speaker 1: like a where like you know, a lot of like

2505
02:18:02,440 --> 02:18:05,840
Speaker 1: political figures talk about them is is Twitter UM, and

2506
02:18:05,879 --> 02:18:08,160
Speaker 1: then Telegram is where they really disseminate these out into

2507
02:18:08,200 --> 02:18:10,560
Speaker 1: more obscure groups. And maybe they changed their wording because

2508
02:18:10,560 --> 02:18:12,760
Speaker 1: they know the audience is a little bit different. And

2509
02:18:13,920 --> 02:18:19,560
Speaker 1: they've been a vector of information for a while. Really

2510
02:18:19,760 --> 02:18:23,240
Speaker 1: really with the protests, they kind of picked up a

2511
02:18:23,280 --> 02:18:27,320
Speaker 1: lot of there was they were everywhere in terms of

2512
02:18:27,440 --> 02:18:31,360
Speaker 1: like saying specific things, not doing sourcing UM and just

2513
02:18:31,560 --> 02:18:34,920
Speaker 1: having like basically they are a place where they kind

2514
02:18:34,920 --> 02:18:37,520
Speaker 1: of create what they they try to create what the

2515
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:41,440
Speaker 1: news is because of how isolated they are from the

2516
02:18:41,520 --> 02:18:44,240
Speaker 1: sources that they actually pull info from, and they're very

2517
02:18:44,400 --> 02:18:47,240
Speaker 1: they're very interested in kind of crafting their own version

2518
02:18:47,360 --> 02:18:52,560
Speaker 1: of events UM, which appeals to people across the spectrum. Like,

2519
02:18:52,879 --> 02:18:56,080
Speaker 1: they don't just market towards the far right wing. Sometimes

2520
02:18:56,160 --> 02:18:58,680
Speaker 1: they frame things to kind of attract of a variety

2521
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:04,240
Speaker 1: of people, like the under the extremist banner. Let's say. Um, So,

2522
02:19:04,400 --> 02:19:06,720
Speaker 1: you know, you don't just see them in far right circles.

2523
02:19:06,920 --> 02:19:08,880
Speaker 1: You see Disclose pop up in a lot of places

2524
02:19:09,240 --> 02:19:12,560
Speaker 1: because of the way they framed news and breaking events. UM.

2525
02:19:13,400 --> 02:19:15,200
Speaker 1: But they didn't always start out like this. This isn't

2526
02:19:15,240 --> 02:19:17,120
Speaker 1: what they always were. They weren't always this kind of

2527
02:19:17,160 --> 02:19:21,840
Speaker 1: content aggregator that creates their version of news. UM and

2528
02:19:22,600 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: Thomas did more research into what they were before, which

2529
02:19:26,640 --> 02:19:30,199
Speaker 1: I actually had not done that research yet. Um. So yeah,

2530
02:19:30,520 --> 02:19:33,360
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah.

2531
02:19:33,400 --> 02:19:35,200
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna start off with talking about how I

2532
02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:39,960
Speaker 1: first heard about disclose. Um. So I was living in

2533
02:19:40,040 --> 02:19:43,280
Speaker 1: Germany when the pandemic hit UM and got COVID first

2534
02:19:43,360 --> 02:19:48,720
Speaker 1: wave in Germany, the March UM. Luckily I was totally asymptomatic. UM,

2535
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:51,080
Speaker 1: but I was kind of stranded in Germany for a

2536
02:19:51,120 --> 02:19:53,720
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. UM and how to isolate in a

2537
02:19:53,920 --> 02:19:57,360
Speaker 1: vacation rental uh and the Bavarian man who owned it

2538
02:19:57,520 --> 02:20:00,240
Speaker 1: just kept coming in talking to me, and I would

2539
02:20:00,240 --> 02:20:03,240
Speaker 1: tell him, Hey, it's probably not the best idea for

2540
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:05,280
Speaker 1: you to be coming by and chatting with me all

2541
02:20:05,320 --> 02:20:09,160
Speaker 1: the time. And now he got into talking, and we're

2542
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:11,080
Speaker 1: talking in German. He got we got into talking about

2543
02:20:12,160 --> 02:20:14,760
Speaker 1: the pandemic, what he thought about it, and he started

2544
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:17,160
Speaker 1: talking about how he thought, oh, the government's making this

2545
02:20:17,200 --> 02:20:19,680
Speaker 1: seem way worse than it is. You know, the deep

2546
02:20:19,720 --> 02:20:21,440
Speaker 1: state if you know anything about that, and he and

2547
02:20:21,560 --> 02:20:25,920
Speaker 1: he said deep state in English. Um. And I was

2548
02:20:26,000 --> 02:20:30,160
Speaker 1: familiar with German far right currents at that time, Um,

2549
02:20:30,280 --> 02:20:34,840
Speaker 1: but I had never encountered a pilled German dude. And

2550
02:20:35,000 --> 02:20:38,160
Speaker 1: that's when I realized this is gonna be a fucking problem.

2551
02:20:38,560 --> 02:20:43,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and and it lo and behold it has

2552
02:20:43,080 --> 02:20:46,280
Speaker 1: continued to be a problem. So as I got back

2553
02:20:46,320 --> 02:20:47,920
Speaker 1: to the U S. And and the other thing when

2554
02:20:47,959 --> 02:20:49,360
Speaker 1: I was in Germany is the first time I tunded

2555
02:20:49,480 --> 02:20:54,240
Speaker 1: I encountered telegram. Um when a German I knew, said hey,

2556
02:20:54,400 --> 02:20:56,960
Speaker 1: I I just don't trust WhatsApp because it's on by Facebook.

2557
02:20:57,000 --> 02:21:00,720
Speaker 1: Why don't you download telegram? And he that was nineteen

2558
02:21:00,800 --> 02:21:04,960
Speaker 1: I think, um, and and it was pretty innocuous to

2559
02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:08,000
Speaker 1: me at the time, I didn't realize this would become

2560
02:21:08,160 --> 02:21:14,120
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM. I was working on

2561
02:21:14,200 --> 02:21:18,120
Speaker 1: my master's project, which UM you can talk about more

2562
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:20,640
Speaker 1: later on, because it's kind of besides the point, UM

2563
02:21:21,400 --> 02:21:23,080
Speaker 1: if you don't want to hear about it, but looking

2564
02:21:23,160 --> 02:21:26,760
Speaker 1: at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM, using Colin Campbell's

2565
02:21:26,800 --> 02:21:31,760
Speaker 1: framework of the cultic MILIEUM to understand specifically how Q

2566
02:21:31,959 --> 02:21:34,840
Speaker 1: and on spread in Germany and how Q and on

2567
02:21:35,879 --> 02:21:42,119
Speaker 1: interacted with these native underlying conspiracy narratives within Germany. UM.

2568
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:47,280
Speaker 1: Because Telegram is already massively popular in Germany before after

2569
02:21:47,440 --> 02:21:49,080
Speaker 1: j six, I think of the band wave came down

2570
02:21:49,160 --> 02:21:52,880
Speaker 1: and there was much more migration to the platform. So

2571
02:21:53,760 --> 02:21:55,680
Speaker 1: you know, I did the social network analysis looking at

2572
02:21:55,800 --> 02:21:59,120
Speaker 1: the conspirat German conspiracy is seen on Telegram and one

2573
02:21:59,160 --> 02:22:01,400
Speaker 1: of the big guess notes that came up, and I

2574
02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:03,800
Speaker 1: was looking at a number of times shared into other

2575
02:22:04,320 --> 02:22:08,080
Speaker 1: groups their channels was disclosed tv UM and that's the

2576
02:22:08,120 --> 02:22:11,880
Speaker 1: first time I came into it. I look through it

2577
02:22:11,879 --> 02:22:16,480
Speaker 1: and realized, okay, they there is an editorial stance within

2578
02:22:16,680 --> 02:22:22,040
Speaker 1: this UM, and that editorial stance largely attracts conspiracists and

2579
02:22:22,120 --> 02:22:28,280
Speaker 1: far right extremists to this coverage into you know, this

2580
02:22:28,400 --> 02:22:31,760
Speaker 1: is widely shared among conspiracists and far right extremists. UM.

2581
02:22:33,000 --> 02:22:37,640
Speaker 1: Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as many of us are, unfortunately, UM,

2582
02:22:37,800 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 1: and I saw Disclosed TV just popping up everywhere, UM,

2583
02:22:40,840 --> 02:22:44,480
Speaker 1: even from people who who I would think should know better. Yeah,

2584
02:22:44,680 --> 02:22:50,440
Speaker 1: absolutely are you know, big extremism researchers and journalists UM

2585
02:22:50,600 --> 02:22:53,120
Speaker 1: shared it. I remember there one specific one that really

2586
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:56,520
Speaker 1: came across my feed. UM disclosed had had taken a

2587
02:22:56,600 --> 02:23:03,160
Speaker 1: video from like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever whatever doing UM

2588
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:09,800
Speaker 1: about the firefighters who were quitting over vaccine mandate or

2589
02:23:09,879 --> 02:23:13,400
Speaker 1: something and had all of their boots or whatever. And

2590
02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:18,120
Speaker 1: I saw, yeah, lots of people sharing that as well. UM.

2591
02:23:18,440 --> 02:23:21,760
Speaker 1: And eventually I got tired of saying, hey, they should

2592
02:23:21,800 --> 02:23:27,640
Speaker 1: just suspect don't share it, UM, and decided to write

2593
02:23:27,640 --> 02:23:29,760
Speaker 1: an article about it so I could just send my

2594
02:23:29,879 --> 02:23:33,080
Speaker 1: article to people. And it's really interesting what I found. UM.

2595
02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:38,119
Speaker 1: Disclosed tv started off in the mid two thousand's as

2596
02:23:39,080 --> 02:23:45,279
Speaker 1: just this forum for UFOs, paranormal stuff, cryptids, big foot sightings,

2597
02:23:45,560 --> 02:23:51,640
Speaker 1: and existed in largely the same format until two thousand

2598
02:23:51,800 --> 02:23:54,960
Speaker 1: and twenty one. Um, there were some shifts in in

2599
02:23:55,600 --> 02:23:59,360
Speaker 1: the way the site presented itself. Um. It was it

2600
02:23:59,400 --> 02:24:02,080
Speaker 1: started off as a member logging where members could write

2601
02:24:02,440 --> 02:24:05,680
Speaker 1: articles that were largely long form forum posts and then

2602
02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:10,840
Speaker 1: have people comment on them and reply. Um. And at

2603
02:24:10,879 --> 02:24:16,520
Speaker 1: one point Disclosed made the jump to functioning as a

2604
02:24:16,560 --> 02:24:20,960
Speaker 1: news aggregator while including an editorial spin on that and

2605
02:24:21,000 --> 02:24:23,240
Speaker 1: including some of their own articles. Do you want me

2606
02:24:23,280 --> 02:24:26,800
Speaker 1: to get more into that now, Yeah, because yeah, because

2607
02:24:26,800 --> 02:24:31,200
Speaker 1: like the shift was was it wasn't like immediate as well, right,

2608
02:24:31,280 --> 02:24:33,400
Speaker 1: Like they were starting to kind of present themselves and

2609
02:24:33,480 --> 02:24:37,120
Speaker 1: more of a news gathering way, you know. Around the

2610
02:24:37,200 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 1: late of course, during this became a big thing in

2611
02:24:40,600 --> 02:24:43,880
Speaker 1: terms of their social media presence. Um, they were trying

2612
02:24:43,920 --> 02:24:47,360
Speaker 1: to present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but

2613
02:24:47,480 --> 02:24:49,880
Speaker 1: they still operated that. But they still operated the forum

2614
02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:52,119
Speaker 1: on their site throughout most of that time. And that's

2615
02:24:52,160 --> 02:24:55,360
Speaker 1: only until recently where they shut that forum down, UM,

2616
02:24:55,879 --> 02:24:58,480
Speaker 1: which was you know, full of full of all kinds

2617
02:24:58,520 --> 02:25:01,280
Speaker 1: of conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see past for

2618
02:25:01,760 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 1: most people. Uh, secret you know, secret Arctic ship, which

2619
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:12,000
Speaker 1: is yeah, it's always that's usually Yeah, even going to

2620
02:25:12,040 --> 02:25:16,720
Speaker 1: get stuff like watch this s j W get wrecked,

2621
02:25:16,879 --> 02:25:18,920
Speaker 1: which which is not a quotation, but just that kind

2622
02:25:18,959 --> 02:25:23,400
Speaker 1: of vibe, that style of content. Yeah, going from the

2623
02:25:23,560 --> 02:25:26,920
Speaker 1: forum operating than with the you know, their social media accounts,

2624
02:25:27,120 --> 02:25:29,280
Speaker 1: to the shift this more of like presenting as a

2625
02:25:29,320 --> 02:25:32,320
Speaker 1: news website. Talking about that and the potential effects that

2626
02:25:32,400 --> 02:25:35,280
Speaker 1: we see this having on both like the social media

2627
02:25:35,400 --> 02:25:39,280
Speaker 1: sites and just the overall trend of news aggregation in general.

2628
02:25:39,360 --> 02:25:43,480
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. So the first big shift that I

2629
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 1: found UM was the creation of their Telegram channel, which

2630
02:25:46,280 --> 02:25:51,039
Speaker 1: is in January one actually, so this is relatively more

2631
02:25:51,120 --> 02:25:57,560
Speaker 1: recent than shift that happened UM, and they operated their

2632
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:02,039
Speaker 1: Telegram as a as more in this traditional news aggregator

2633
02:26:02,160 --> 02:26:05,359
Speaker 1: since and so that's how they really blew up on Telegram.

2634
02:26:05,440 --> 02:26:07,800
Speaker 1: At some point they deleted all of their old tweets

2635
02:26:08,120 --> 02:26:10,560
Speaker 1: UM and started operating their Twitter in a similar manner.

2636
02:26:10,560 --> 02:26:17,400
Speaker 1: It was after they created this telegram channel UM in September,

2637
02:26:17,840 --> 02:26:22,400
Speaker 1: actually overnight on septemb they completely re rebranded the site.

2638
02:26:22,920 --> 02:26:26,840
Speaker 1: They took out all the user forums UM. They included

2639
02:26:27,320 --> 02:26:34,080
Speaker 1: backdated articles to a year prior UM, and looking looking

2640
02:26:34,080 --> 02:26:38,080
Speaker 1: through archives of that, there was a note saying something

2641
02:26:38,400 --> 02:26:41,520
Speaker 1: along the lines of we have found so much growth

2642
02:26:41,840 --> 02:26:44,680
Speaker 1: on our social media are growing Telegram channel, are growing

2643
02:26:45,040 --> 02:26:50,840
Speaker 1: Twitter account UM, and something to the effect of we

2644
02:26:51,080 --> 02:26:53,760
Speaker 1: we are changing our strategy and going about this a

2645
02:26:53,879 --> 02:26:58,120
Speaker 1: different way. UM. And you can if you were into

2646
02:26:58,160 --> 02:27:01,120
Speaker 1: the forum, you can join our discord um which is

2647
02:27:02,040 --> 02:27:05,920
Speaker 1: defunct and I'll get I'll get into that later. UM.

2648
02:27:07,920 --> 02:27:11,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, looking it was really interesting too because looking

2649
02:27:11,080 --> 02:27:18,680
Speaker 1: at these backdated articles UM, they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM.

2650
02:27:19,160 --> 02:27:21,920
Speaker 1: They had I believe it's it's all in the article,

2651
02:27:22,080 --> 02:27:27,440
Speaker 1: but they had four journalists UM names attached with the

2652
02:27:27,560 --> 02:27:34,760
Speaker 1: article using um AI generated images for their pictures UM.

2653
02:27:37,440 --> 02:27:42,320
Speaker 1: And as the especially the articles that they themselves published

2654
02:27:42,560 --> 02:27:49,320
Speaker 1: UM were very focused on UFOs, paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM,

2655
02:27:49,800 --> 02:27:55,920
Speaker 1: as well as content that could cause skepticism within an

2656
02:27:56,040 --> 02:28:00,880
Speaker 1: audience about vaccines and lockdowns. And I do not know

2657
02:28:01,280 --> 02:28:05,680
Speaker 1: the intent of their editorial board and so I cannot

2658
02:28:05,680 --> 02:28:08,920
Speaker 1: speak on that, but of course we generated this effect. Yes,

2659
02:28:09,080 --> 02:28:12,360
Speaker 1: that is, they found a way of creating content which

2660
02:28:12,400 --> 02:28:15,200
Speaker 1: develops a very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which

2661
02:28:15,320 --> 02:28:18,720
Speaker 1: made them, you know, what one could assume would make

2662
02:28:18,760 --> 02:28:20,360
Speaker 1: them want to make more of that content because it

2663
02:28:20,440 --> 02:28:23,280
Speaker 1: makes more numbers than they can UM use that to

2664
02:28:23,320 --> 02:28:28,640
Speaker 1: grow their platform. UM. Yeah. Specifically leading up like after

2665
02:28:28,879 --> 02:28:32,600
Speaker 1: after January UM ramping up one of the vaccines were

2666
02:28:32,600 --> 02:28:34,320
Speaker 1: coming more and more common in the States and that

2667
02:28:34,480 --> 02:28:38,439
Speaker 1: across the world. UM. They have seen a pretty significant

2668
02:28:38,520 --> 02:28:44,360
Speaker 1: growth and have changed their platform accordingly exactly. UM. So

2669
02:28:45,000 --> 02:28:50,000
Speaker 1: we began looking into who the who the fun owns this,

2670
02:28:50,120 --> 02:28:54,640
Speaker 1: what's going on with this UM. Like all German companies

2671
02:28:55,160 --> 02:28:58,520
Speaker 1: UM and it is based in Germany, there's a requirement

2672
02:28:58,560 --> 02:29:01,240
Speaker 1: by law to include an imprint or impress them that

2673
02:29:01,400 --> 02:29:08,640
Speaker 1: includes an address, UM contact information for the site UM.

2674
02:29:09,080 --> 02:29:13,039
Speaker 1: There in the company that owns it UM a company

2675
02:29:13,080 --> 02:29:17,879
Speaker 1: called Future Bites operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself

2676
02:29:17,879 --> 02:29:22,760
Speaker 1: as a private equity firm and media group. UM and

2677
02:29:22,840 --> 02:29:26,160
Speaker 1: looking into the ownership behind Future Bites is a man

2678
02:29:26,360 --> 02:29:29,400
Speaker 1: by the name of Uva Brown who has a pretty

2679
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:34,080
Speaker 1: interesting backstory. He's hosted, He's made numerous web hosting sites UM.

2680
02:29:35,040 --> 02:29:38,360
Speaker 1: I believe he created some dating sites as well, but

2681
02:29:38,560 --> 02:29:41,959
Speaker 1: but my research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM.

2682
02:29:43,000 --> 02:29:45,760
Speaker 1: But eventually he sold. He had his most success when

2683
02:29:45,840 --> 02:29:49,680
Speaker 1: he sold one of his web hosting sites to go

2684
02:29:49,879 --> 02:29:54,680
Speaker 1: Daddy for a lot of money, and along the way,

2685
02:29:55,080 --> 02:29:58,840
Speaker 1: in his own as he described, booked a flight on

2686
02:29:59,320 --> 02:30:01,880
Speaker 1: virgin to go into space and see for himself if

2687
02:30:01,920 --> 02:30:04,800
Speaker 1: the earth, if the Earth was flat. Oh my god,

2688
02:30:05,440 --> 02:30:09,880
Speaker 1: awesome cool that that, this is great, thank you. So

2689
02:30:10,040 --> 02:30:14,400
Speaker 1: this this is who we're dealing with, um. Sweet. And

2690
02:30:14,840 --> 02:30:18,280
Speaker 1: the thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that

2691
02:30:18,600 --> 02:30:23,920
Speaker 1: that becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a

2692
02:30:24,040 --> 02:30:29,080
Speaker 1: very different uh, look at free speech than in the US. UM.

2693
02:30:29,200 --> 02:30:34,400
Speaker 1: For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the

2694
02:30:34,480 --> 02:30:37,920
Speaker 1: Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime. They can

2695
02:30:37,959 --> 02:30:43,840
Speaker 1: get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as

2696
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:47,039
Speaker 1: I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berny Piper

2697
02:30:47,080 --> 02:30:49,920
Speaker 1: and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored

2698
02:30:50,840 --> 02:30:54,320
Speaker 1: their discord and their telegram. We realized, Hum, seems to

2699
02:30:54,400 --> 02:30:57,160
Speaker 1: be a lot of Nazis here, and by which when

2700
02:30:57,200 --> 02:30:58,760
Speaker 1: I say seems to be a lot of Nazis, I

2701
02:30:58,840 --> 02:31:03,880
Speaker 1: mean people with swastikas in their profile builds UM with

2702
02:31:04,640 --> 02:31:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers parentheses UM,

2703
02:31:10,120 --> 02:31:14,160
Speaker 1: and saying denying that the hologast happened, UM, and also

2704
02:31:14,320 --> 02:31:18,680
Speaker 1: sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous new Nazi

2705
02:31:18,720 --> 02:31:24,760
Speaker 1: propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which was shared

2706
02:31:24,840 --> 02:31:29,200
Speaker 1: by prominent q and On influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah I know. UM,

2707
02:31:30,400 --> 02:31:33,360
Speaker 1: oh man, this this came up a few days ago.

2708
02:31:33,560 --> 02:31:37,640
Speaker 1: One of the one of the channels that me and

2709
02:31:37,760 --> 02:31:42,360
Speaker 1: someone else have been watching, UH forwarded me it being

2710
02:31:42,560 --> 02:31:44,880
Speaker 1: that that that film being shared at the it was

2711
02:31:45,000 --> 02:31:48,439
Speaker 1: it was it was that the the Free Oregon Telegram

2712
02:31:48,560 --> 02:31:52,360
Speaker 1: channel was sharing links to that and I wonder I

2713
02:31:52,400 --> 02:31:54,040
Speaker 1: would I would like to track back where that link

2714
02:31:54,160 --> 02:31:58,800
Speaker 1: came from. UM. Yeah. Not not great seeing that film

2715
02:31:58,920 --> 02:32:01,480
Speaker 1: circulate more and more, specially among like you know, the

2716
02:32:01,640 --> 02:32:04,480
Speaker 1: free organ Telegram channels, you know, like Anti mask, Anti backs,

2717
02:32:04,800 --> 02:32:09,200
Speaker 1: Anti Lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing the percoloration of that

2718
02:32:09,320 --> 02:32:14,960
Speaker 1: type of content. Yeah. So, in preparing for this article UM,

2719
02:32:16,360 --> 02:32:19,320
Speaker 1: with the help of of the Logically editorial team, I'm

2720
02:32:19,360 --> 02:32:24,560
Speaker 1: a freelancer UM, their current head of content, Ernie Piper

2721
02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:29,640
Speaker 1: UM sent an email basically asking, Hey, what's going on.

2722
02:32:30,400 --> 02:32:32,240
Speaker 1: You all seem to have a Nazi problem that's kind

2723
02:32:32,240 --> 02:32:39,000
Speaker 1: of borderline illegal in Germany, UM, to which for a

2724
02:32:39,080 --> 02:32:42,039
Speaker 1: while this for for about twenty four hours as closed,

2725
02:32:42,080 --> 02:32:45,600
Speaker 1: just went totally quiet and didn't post Um and then

2726
02:32:45,840 --> 02:32:52,119
Speaker 1: came out with a post specifically targeting Ernie Um by

2727
02:32:52,240 --> 02:32:54,400
Speaker 1: name and with a picture of him and linking to

2728
02:32:54,520 --> 02:33:00,360
Speaker 1: some of his old reporting work as well, Um saying yes,

2729
02:33:00,720 --> 02:33:03,800
Speaker 1: Uva Brown owns this. He got his money from Go daddy.

2730
02:33:04,320 --> 02:33:08,480
Speaker 1: You know, we value free speech and we condemn hatred whatnot,

2731
02:33:08,640 --> 02:33:10,920
Speaker 1: and and saying, oh, our telegram we have a tell

2732
02:33:11,040 --> 02:33:13,120
Speaker 1: there's a telegram group, but we have these rules in it,

2733
02:33:13,360 --> 02:33:16,600
Speaker 1: and uh, okay, yeah, we we had to shut down

2734
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:19,360
Speaker 1: the discord that got a little bit out of hand.

2735
02:33:19,440 --> 02:33:22,000
Speaker 1: We admit that. You know, they had people denying the

2736
02:33:22,040 --> 02:33:26,320
Speaker 1: Holocaust with swastka icons in their discord that they didn't

2737
02:33:26,320 --> 02:33:30,800
Speaker 1: seem to care too much about until someone pointed it out. Um.

2738
02:33:32,080 --> 02:33:35,920
Speaker 1: And you know there's there was additionally very explicit neo

2739
02:33:36,000 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 1: Nazi content in their telegram channel as well, with the excuse,

2740
02:33:39,879 --> 02:33:44,280
Speaker 1: oh well, we're a glowing growing platform. We we can't

2741
02:33:44,400 --> 02:33:47,040
Speaker 1: moderate everything. Is well they have They just crossed four

2742
02:33:47,120 --> 02:33:49,640
Speaker 1: hundred thousand in their telegram channel and I think about

2743
02:33:49,720 --> 02:33:57,440
Speaker 1: thirty thousand and their telegram group UM, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah,

2744
02:33:57,720 --> 02:34:01,160
Speaker 1: that is if if my personal opinion is that if

2745
02:34:01,200 --> 02:34:05,400
Speaker 1: you cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space,

2746
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:09,320
Speaker 1: you probably shouldn't the space the space. Um And and

2747
02:34:09,400 --> 02:34:13,120
Speaker 1: additionally confirming, oh, okay, we we when we made our

2748
02:34:13,160 --> 02:34:15,520
Speaker 1: new version of the site. Yes, we backdated some articles

2749
02:34:15,640 --> 02:34:20,840
Speaker 1: from previous user generated content that we you know, didn't

2750
02:34:20,920 --> 02:34:24,160
Speaker 1: vet properly. We're trying to fix that now they remove

2751
02:34:24,280 --> 02:34:27,800
Speaker 1: some of those articles. Um. And that yeah, we none

2752
02:34:27,840 --> 02:34:31,760
Speaker 1: of the people who who are the authors of our

2753
02:34:31,879 --> 02:34:34,640
Speaker 1: articles are real people and they're all pen names. Um.

2754
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:37,840
Speaker 1: You know. They also have or at least had a

2755
02:34:37,879 --> 02:34:40,320
Speaker 1: tab on their website that said right for us and

2756
02:34:41,080 --> 02:34:43,960
Speaker 1: looking for people to send them things and saying you know,

2757
02:34:44,040 --> 02:34:46,240
Speaker 1: well we will disclose your bio and link to all

2758
02:34:46,280 --> 02:34:48,520
Speaker 1: your social media if you write a story for us.

2759
02:34:48,560 --> 02:34:52,240
Speaker 1: And they're there was zero of that happening as well.

2760
02:34:53,080 --> 02:34:55,720
Speaker 1: So do you think that, I know, like on the

2761
02:34:55,879 --> 02:35:00,240
Speaker 1: rules for their telegram they have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um.

2762
02:35:00,600 --> 02:35:02,640
Speaker 1: Do you think they're actually trying to discourage that because

2763
02:35:02,640 --> 02:35:05,640
Speaker 1: they're scared of legal stuff or is that just presentorary

2764
02:35:06,160 --> 02:35:08,280
Speaker 1: and they I guess you know, this is just going

2765
02:35:08,320 --> 02:35:10,120
Speaker 1: into speculations so I think this might be more a

2766
02:35:10,200 --> 02:35:13,440
Speaker 1: question for even Robert Um in terms of yeah, like

2767
02:35:14,680 --> 02:35:17,640
Speaker 1: is the anti Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does

2768
02:35:17,680 --> 02:35:19,800
Speaker 1: seem to be a lot of their user base is

2769
02:35:19,840 --> 02:35:22,240
Speaker 1: fostering that type of thing or is you know being

2770
02:35:22,280 --> 02:35:26,360
Speaker 1: moved over from other similar channels. Um? Because yeah, like

2771
02:35:26,400 --> 02:35:28,480
Speaker 1: a lot of like the amount that we see disclose,

2772
02:35:29,000 --> 02:35:31,240
Speaker 1: like you know, intercept with channels like you know, the

2773
02:35:31,320 --> 02:35:33,440
Speaker 1: Rise Above Him the channel, UM, and a whole bunch

2774
02:35:33,440 --> 02:35:35,880
Speaker 1: of like eco fascist channels, and a whole bunch of

2775
02:35:36,000 --> 02:35:38,720
Speaker 1: channels you know on a like a broad range of

2776
02:35:38,760 --> 02:35:40,920
Speaker 1: like actual like fascist topics, like people who are like

2777
02:35:41,040 --> 02:35:44,040
Speaker 1: into fascist theory. Um. Is quite high that like the

2778
02:35:44,240 --> 02:35:48,280
Speaker 1: amount that disclosed shows up. Um. And I don't know,

2779
02:35:48,520 --> 02:35:50,920
Speaker 1: like you could look at all their stuff saying I mean,

2780
02:35:51,000 --> 02:35:52,920
Speaker 1: like yeah on on the their rule page saying no

2781
02:35:53,040 --> 02:35:56,600
Speaker 1: Nazi bullshit. Um. But then if you spend any amount

2782
02:35:56,600 --> 02:35:58,920
Speaker 1: of time looking at at where they're posts are forwarded,

2783
02:35:59,160 --> 02:36:03,640
Speaker 1: it's almost primary early people who self describe themselves as fascists. UM.

2784
02:36:05,040 --> 02:36:07,320
Speaker 1: So I mean, yeah, it's hard to or Donald J.

2785
02:36:07,480 --> 02:36:12,040
Speaker 1: Trump Jr. Yes, Yes, it expands out into a lot

2786
02:36:12,080 --> 02:36:14,959
Speaker 1: of you know, just like you know, American journalists suits

2787
02:36:15,280 --> 02:36:19,200
Speaker 1: studying streamism could also share Discloses stuff on Twitter, right,

2788
02:36:19,560 --> 02:36:22,240
Speaker 1: that is part of their thing is making that and

2789
02:36:22,360 --> 02:36:24,320
Speaker 1: you know that that does strengthen them because it gives

2790
02:36:24,400 --> 02:36:26,680
Speaker 1: them that legitimacy. So then when people point out that

2791
02:36:26,680 --> 02:36:28,840
Speaker 1: they have Nazi problem, like, no, that's not us, that's

2792
02:36:28,920 --> 02:36:31,200
Speaker 1: just some of our users who are trolling or you

2793
02:36:31,240 --> 02:36:35,200
Speaker 1: know whatever whatever bullshit they want to say. Um so

2794
02:36:35,280 --> 02:36:37,920
Speaker 1: I guess, like how I guess the real way to

2795
02:36:37,959 --> 02:36:42,320
Speaker 1: frame this is like how often have you seen Nazi

2796
02:36:42,360 --> 02:36:45,240
Speaker 1: stuff associated with the disclose with the Disclosed TV brand?

2797
02:36:45,400 --> 02:36:47,320
Speaker 1: Because that's the one thing we actually can measure, right,

2798
02:36:47,360 --> 02:36:49,560
Speaker 1: we can't measure their intentions, but we can't measure how

2799
02:36:49,680 --> 02:36:53,280
Speaker 1: often this stuff happens. Yeah, I mean that's always like

2800
02:36:53,400 --> 02:36:56,280
Speaker 1: the best way to measure that kind of thing, rather

2801
02:36:56,320 --> 02:37:00,440
Speaker 1: than just sort of like making the allegation sting, like

2802
02:37:00,920 --> 02:37:02,720
Speaker 1: we find it in this many channels, we see it

2803
02:37:02,840 --> 02:37:05,879
Speaker 1: shared in these areas, it's being discussed by these people,

2804
02:37:05,959 --> 02:37:09,880
Speaker 1: and like like that that's I think always kind of

2805
02:37:09,920 --> 02:37:12,720
Speaker 1: how you actually build these these sort of networks is

2806
02:37:12,840 --> 02:37:16,560
Speaker 1: by looking at what is actually spreading where like that's

2807
02:37:17,200 --> 02:37:20,000
Speaker 1: it is thankfully something that you can measure pretty objectively,

2808
02:37:20,480 --> 02:37:22,520
Speaker 1: and like they are fostering it with the amount of

2809
02:37:23,160 --> 02:37:25,320
Speaker 1: stuff they talk about like George Soros and you know,

2810
02:37:25,400 --> 02:37:27,480
Speaker 1: the amount of stuff that they like. The way they

2811
02:37:27,680 --> 02:37:32,480
Speaker 1: frame breaking news is is has that editorial bent where

2812
02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:34,959
Speaker 1: it's very clear that it's getting pushed in a specific

2813
02:37:35,040 --> 02:37:39,160
Speaker 1: direction like there's that is that is a thing that

2814
02:37:39,320 --> 02:37:42,440
Speaker 1: you can't observe by reading the type of narratives they're

2815
02:37:42,560 --> 02:37:47,840
Speaker 1: weaving via how they report information. Um, the the topics

2816
02:37:47,920 --> 02:37:52,760
Speaker 1: that they choose to cover, our topics that resonate very

2817
02:37:52,840 --> 02:37:59,040
Speaker 1: deeply with conspiracist and with far extremist communities. UM. If

2818
02:37:59,080 --> 02:38:02,160
Speaker 1: I had to suspect late, UM, I will say at

2819
02:38:02,240 --> 02:38:06,440
Speaker 1: least since the article has come out, Um, they've done

2820
02:38:06,480 --> 02:38:10,480
Speaker 1: a better job of moderating their telegram channel at least

2821
02:38:10,560 --> 02:38:14,800
Speaker 1: for now. So good job, disclosed TV no one. You

2822
02:38:14,920 --> 02:38:17,680
Speaker 1: can't find links to Europe with the last battle there anymore.

2823
02:38:17,720 --> 02:38:22,840
Speaker 1: You can still find you can still find very rampant

2824
02:38:23,000 --> 02:38:30,279
Speaker 1: homophobia slurs, um, because you know they didn't. They clearly

2825
02:38:30,320 --> 02:38:33,360
Speaker 1: auto blocked some words, but people can shorten them or

2826
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:36,440
Speaker 1: use different spellings for those words to still be used

2827
02:38:36,480 --> 02:38:44,640
Speaker 1: in the channel. Um, there's still anti Semitic um coded

2828
02:38:44,680 --> 02:38:48,920
Speaker 1: anti Semitic references as well responding to something saying oive

2829
02:38:48,959 --> 02:38:53,560
Speaker 1: a for example, which is something that tends to be

2830
02:38:53,680 --> 02:38:58,680
Speaker 1: used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah,

2831
02:38:58,879 --> 02:39:01,320
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you do any amount of research

2832
02:39:01,400 --> 02:39:05,440
Speaker 1: on Telegram, you will you will find forward links, forwarded

2833
02:39:05,480 --> 02:39:09,800
Speaker 1: links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's it is,

2834
02:39:10,160 --> 02:39:15,279
Speaker 1: it is so massive. The footprint that they have currently

2835
02:39:15,959 --> 02:39:20,920
Speaker 1: in the in like the the cycle of of forwarding

2836
02:39:20,959 --> 02:39:25,320
Speaker 1: posts specifically on Telegram UM and yeah, and they're they're

2837
02:39:25,320 --> 02:39:27,960
Speaker 1: getting a lot of traction on it because they have

2838
02:39:28,080 --> 02:39:30,000
Speaker 1: stuff framed in a way that's really easy for them

2839
02:39:31,040 --> 02:39:34,640
Speaker 1: to have those stuff like line up with the communities

2840
02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:39,440
Speaker 1: that promote those types of worldviews UM and promote the

2841
02:39:39,600 --> 02:39:42,880
Speaker 1: you know, the narratives that they want to foster. So

2842
02:39:43,240 --> 02:39:47,520
Speaker 1: let's see, let's have another quick break and then let's

2843
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:53,040
Speaker 1: maybe talk about your big master's project, which is really interesting. Yeah,

2844
02:39:53,080 --> 02:39:55,520
Speaker 1: can I can? I? Can I do it? Yeah? I

2845
02:39:55,600 --> 02:40:00,840
Speaker 1: do that. You know, you know what isn't telegram literally

2846
02:40:00,959 --> 02:40:03,320
Speaker 1: these ads unless we get an ad by Telegram, which

2847
02:40:03,400 --> 02:40:07,240
Speaker 1: we are primarily sponsored by the Duo Brothers UM. But

2848
02:40:07,560 --> 02:40:11,160
Speaker 1: that's for a separate project. My favorite at is the

2849
02:40:11,840 --> 02:40:13,240
Speaker 1: is the one where it's the kid playing and they

2850
02:40:13,280 --> 02:40:18,959
Speaker 1: find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And well

2851
02:40:19,080 --> 02:40:21,400
Speaker 1: we are thanks to great job. Great We hope everybody

2852
02:40:21,520 --> 02:40:26,880
Speaker 1: enjoyed that kid finding a gun kid firing it. Yeah,

2853
02:40:27,200 --> 02:40:31,160
Speaker 1: so there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody,

2854
02:40:31,240 --> 02:40:34,640
Speaker 1: it was somebody like clipped a screen grabbing news article

2855
02:40:34,720 --> 02:40:37,600
Speaker 1: that was like a toddler has shot someone every day

2856
02:40:37,720 --> 02:40:39,680
Speaker 1: in the United States for the last three years, and

2857
02:40:39,760 --> 02:40:44,840
Speaker 1: somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him. It's

2858
02:40:44,959 --> 02:40:50,400
Speaker 1: very kish. UM. The last thing I want to talk

2859
02:40:50,400 --> 02:40:53,800
Speaker 1: about is just kind of why news aggregators are bad

2860
02:40:53,840 --> 02:40:56,720
Speaker 1: in the first place, and examples of which we've seen

2861
02:40:56,879 --> 02:40:58,920
Speaker 1: the past few years, and how they contribute to dis

2862
02:40:58,959 --> 02:41:02,720
Speaker 1: information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for any

2863
02:41:02,840 --> 02:41:05,039
Speaker 1: claims and they try to make themselves a primary source

2864
02:41:05,120 --> 02:41:07,680
Speaker 1: even though they're not. UM And then also would love

2865
02:41:07,720 --> 02:41:14,120
Speaker 1: to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah, we

2866
02:41:14,200 --> 02:41:18,920
Speaker 1: saw a lot of news aggregators that like during the protest,

2867
02:41:18,959 --> 02:41:23,920
Speaker 1: specifically that that spawned and killed many a news aggregator

2868
02:41:23,959 --> 02:41:27,960
Speaker 1: account UM, which did not help things very much. UM

2869
02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:30,480
Speaker 1: and this is is an issue that strikes across the

2870
02:41:30,480 --> 02:41:34,080
Speaker 1: political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest instances

2871
02:41:34,120 --> 02:41:37,240
Speaker 1: of that would be an account called an on cat right.

2872
02:41:37,320 --> 02:41:43,080
Speaker 1: That was the yeah um who you know marketed themselves

2873
02:41:43,120 --> 02:41:45,760
Speaker 1: towards the left wing um. And again I don't know

2874
02:41:45,800 --> 02:41:47,720
Speaker 1: what their intentionality was. They may have had their heart

2875
02:41:47,720 --> 02:41:49,720
Speaker 1: in the right place. I have no idea, um and

2876
02:41:49,760 --> 02:41:51,880
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna speculate on that right now. But the

2877
02:41:51,959 --> 02:41:57,439
Speaker 1: effect that they caused was damaging to how information is disseminated,

2878
02:41:57,720 --> 02:42:02,039
Speaker 1: specifically in high stress events. Um. You know, like for instance,

2879
02:42:02,080 --> 02:42:04,800
Speaker 1: the written house shooting, you know, like stuff like that. Uh,

2880
02:42:05,160 --> 02:42:09,320
Speaker 1: like the big accounts, the demos around that before that, yeah,

2881
02:42:09,400 --> 02:42:13,600
Speaker 1: before that, yes, yeah, like the the in fostering that

2882
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:18,680
Speaker 1: very fast paced unverified information circulation UM that gets you

2883
02:42:18,720 --> 02:42:20,320
Speaker 1: know a lot of retweets, It gets it gets a

2884
02:42:20,320 --> 02:42:23,640
Speaker 1: lot of eyeballs on it. But but it's hard. It

2885
02:42:23,760 --> 02:42:27,400
Speaker 1: makes it very hard to backtrack claims because they do

2886
02:42:27,600 --> 02:42:30,720
Speaker 1: not want to link to other accounts because they're mostly

2887
02:42:30,760 --> 02:42:34,320
Speaker 1: interested in growing their own account. Um. So and I

2888
02:42:34,400 --> 02:42:38,600
Speaker 1: will say Disclose has gotten better about linking to the sources,

2889
02:42:38,720 --> 02:42:42,320
Speaker 1: even if the title and the tweet don't necessarily match

2890
02:42:42,760 --> 02:42:46,960
Speaker 1: what is in the story they linked to. Yeah, at

2891
02:42:47,000 --> 02:42:50,280
Speaker 1: least someone could take a different interpretation from the two. Yes, So,

2892
02:42:50,600 --> 02:42:52,520
Speaker 1: just like you know, news aggregation and the way it

2893
02:42:52,600 --> 02:42:56,000
Speaker 1: intersects with disinformation and misinformation. Not just a problem for

2894
02:42:56,040 --> 02:42:57,760
Speaker 1: the far right, not just a problem for the right wing,

2895
02:42:58,200 --> 02:43:00,600
Speaker 1: not just a problem for liberals, not just for leftist

2896
02:43:00,680 --> 02:43:04,000
Speaker 1: This is the thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp onto. Um.

2897
02:43:04,200 --> 02:43:06,560
Speaker 1: And some of it's accidental, some of it's intentional. Right,

2898
02:43:06,640 --> 02:43:10,480
Speaker 1: there's some some people might just do this kind of mindlessly,

2899
02:43:10,720 --> 02:43:12,960
Speaker 1: and some people may, you know, do this aggregation with

2900
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 1: a very specific intent in mind. So just be very

2901
02:43:15,360 --> 02:43:18,640
Speaker 1: careful whenever you have an account that always leads with

2902
02:43:18,920 --> 02:43:23,160
Speaker 1: all caps like breaking like news. Like if if you

2903
02:43:23,240 --> 02:43:26,440
Speaker 1: have an account that always does that, maybe maybe maybe

2904
02:43:26,440 --> 02:43:28,600
Speaker 1: don't take that account super seriously all the time. Maybe

2905
02:43:28,600 --> 02:43:31,120
Speaker 1: you should uh find other sources of info that don't

2906
02:43:31,160 --> 02:43:34,200
Speaker 1: always start the tweets with breaking news and all caps

2907
02:43:34,560 --> 02:43:36,920
Speaker 1: or advice to people if they do want something like that,

2908
02:43:37,640 --> 02:43:41,520
Speaker 1: find an actual news source. Yeah, there's plenty of valid

2909
02:43:41,600 --> 02:43:47,400
Speaker 1: criticism to be made against you know, these mainstream media

2910
02:43:47,720 --> 02:43:51,160
Speaker 1: m s M. Centrist stuff from from you know, even

2911
02:43:51,200 --> 02:43:54,400
Speaker 1: from the left, there's there's criticism. Um, but you have

2912
02:43:54,600 --> 02:43:57,280
Speaker 1: to find some way of finding your own meaning and

2913
02:43:57,360 --> 02:43:59,760
Speaker 1: understanding of what is going on in the world around you.

2914
02:44:00,200 --> 02:44:06,440
Speaker 1: I think CNN Reuters. Yeah, And on that point, I

2915
02:44:06,520 --> 02:44:10,040
Speaker 1: think that is part of why I think Disclosed can

2916
02:44:10,160 --> 02:44:12,920
Speaker 1: succeed and or like what they did can succeed. Even

2917
02:44:13,120 --> 02:44:15,520
Speaker 1: like when I see stuff shared on the left, even

2918
02:44:15,560 --> 02:44:19,080
Speaker 1: by like anarchists, because it is a not mainstream media

2919
02:44:19,200 --> 02:44:22,680
Speaker 1: news source, the way they can frame things of sometimes

2920
02:44:22,840 --> 02:44:25,520
Speaker 1: rarely will match up with like an actual anarchist views

2921
02:44:25,640 --> 02:44:27,080
Speaker 1: and the like, Yeah, I'm going to share it from

2922
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:29,440
Speaker 1: this thing because it does feel like an underground you

2923
02:44:29,520 --> 02:44:32,320
Speaker 1: know source. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's not you're not

2924
02:44:32,400 --> 02:44:35,640
Speaker 1: sharing a CNN article, so you feel better because instead

2925
02:44:35,680 --> 02:44:38,480
Speaker 1: you're sharing something that is not in the mainstream. So

2926
02:44:38,640 --> 02:44:41,880
Speaker 1: like I get that, I get that pull to not

2927
02:44:42,160 --> 02:44:46,119
Speaker 1: something that genuous reading of a CNN article instead. Yeah,

2928
02:44:46,240 --> 02:44:48,080
Speaker 1: but instead of you're you know, it's not actually better,

2929
02:44:48,160 --> 02:44:52,080
Speaker 1: it's just marketing. They're just tricking you via aesthetics and branding,

2930
02:44:52,160 --> 02:44:55,640
Speaker 1: and that's all that it is, right, So maybe you

2931
02:44:55,680 --> 02:44:59,160
Speaker 1: should learn learn to see past the marketing and branding

2932
02:44:59,160 --> 02:45:00,600
Speaker 1: of those types of things and look at the actual

2933
02:45:00,840 --> 02:45:05,040
Speaker 1: content of what's being shared. What is the university project

2934
02:45:05,160 --> 02:45:09,440
Speaker 1: thing that has been taking up a lot of your time? Yeah,

2935
02:45:09,560 --> 02:45:12,480
Speaker 1: and um, so you're back in the US, and I

2936
02:45:12,520 --> 02:45:16,560
Speaker 1: got interested, um, especially in looking at the spread of

2937
02:45:16,640 --> 02:45:18,920
Speaker 1: Q and on in Germany, and that you led me

2938
02:45:19,000 --> 02:45:24,720
Speaker 1: down this research path, um, and brought me especially to telegram. Um.

2939
02:45:24,800 --> 02:45:29,240
Speaker 1: Again before it was largely used in in right wing

2940
02:45:29,320 --> 02:45:31,720
Speaker 1: circles in the U. S well, the the Nazis have

2941
02:45:31,959 --> 02:45:35,640
Speaker 1: have pretty regularly in the US, but on telegram as well. Um.

2942
02:45:36,920 --> 02:45:39,280
Speaker 1: But this led me to look at this and and

2943
02:45:40,440 --> 02:45:44,080
Speaker 1: especially to to look at telegram the context of as

2944
02:45:44,120 --> 02:45:48,520
Speaker 1: I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic billy you, um,

2945
02:45:49,320 --> 02:45:51,120
Speaker 1: which I don't know if y'all have talked about that

2946
02:45:51,600 --> 02:45:57,080
Speaker 1: on this we have one behind, okay, but Yeah, to

2947
02:45:57,360 --> 02:46:00,400
Speaker 1: give a quick summary, is is the con scept that

2948
02:46:02,200 --> 02:46:04,760
Speaker 1: there is this space and when Colin Campbell wrote that,

2949
02:46:04,879 --> 02:46:07,840
Speaker 1: it was in I believe the seventies. So it was

2950
02:46:08,160 --> 02:46:14,080
Speaker 1: a physical space where people go to find these rejected narratives,

2951
02:46:14,160 --> 02:46:16,720
Speaker 1: you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge, and they

2952
02:46:16,760 --> 02:46:19,560
Speaker 1: go to seek this kind of knowledge, and and and

2953
02:46:19,680 --> 02:46:22,360
Speaker 1: these things. UM. So he's talking about things like UFO

2954
02:46:22,520 --> 02:46:28,280
Speaker 1: conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores, or

2955
02:46:28,400 --> 02:46:31,640
Speaker 1: perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get a

2956
02:46:31,720 --> 02:46:39,320
Speaker 1: degree in metaphysics. Yeah. As what a weirdly specific example, Gars, Yeah, sorry,

2957
02:46:39,360 --> 02:46:42,280
Speaker 1: that does red the red of thought. Yeah, anyway, how's

2958
02:46:42,320 --> 02:46:47,520
Speaker 1: that going, by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good. Yeah.

2959
02:46:47,680 --> 02:46:51,720
Speaker 1: And and what you find is is people can very

2960
02:46:51,800 --> 02:46:57,120
Speaker 1: easily move between ideologies, UM. And as they move between

2961
02:46:57,760 --> 02:47:02,360
Speaker 1: ideologies concepts, specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM.

2962
02:47:02,440 --> 02:47:04,000
Speaker 1: And this is how you get these kind of highly

2963
02:47:04,360 --> 02:47:09,480
Speaker 1: syncretic movements like Q and on UM, like the modern

2964
02:47:09,560 --> 02:47:14,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy movement UM, which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some

2965
02:47:14,680 --> 02:47:17,000
Speaker 1: of the other really bad ones that are out there

2966
02:47:17,040 --> 02:47:22,200
Speaker 1: as well that combine these different views UM. Specifically, when

2967
02:47:22,240 --> 02:47:23,760
Speaker 1: you start when you start combining the type of like

2968
02:47:23,920 --> 02:47:30,560
Speaker 1: cultural mysticism with politics, often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly,

2969
02:47:31,320 --> 02:47:37,039
Speaker 1: can you think of any examples? I mean, in some ways,

2970
02:47:37,040 --> 02:47:38,960
Speaker 1: the modern eco fascist movement is built on a lot

2971
02:47:39,000 --> 02:47:40,480
Speaker 1: of this type of stuff, so that that would be

2972
02:47:40,560 --> 02:47:43,440
Speaker 1: the easiest, that would be the easiest one. I think

2973
02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:45,760
Speaker 1: that the syncretism of because I think a lot of

2974
02:47:45,800 --> 02:47:48,720
Speaker 1: people have been surprised to see like you know, kind

2975
02:47:48,720 --> 02:47:53,160
Speaker 1: of like natural medicine and whatnot, subcultures and eight like

2976
02:47:53,280 --> 02:47:56,800
Speaker 1: alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q and on and

2977
02:47:57,040 --> 02:48:01,400
Speaker 1: and these like more like far right neo Nazi type groups,

2978
02:48:01,440 --> 02:48:03,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that there are all of these things

2979
02:48:03,040 --> 02:48:05,440
Speaker 1: that were associated for years kind of more with the

2980
02:48:05,560 --> 02:48:10,039
Speaker 1: left have been increasingly um pulled into this this sort

2981
02:48:10,080 --> 02:48:14,480
Speaker 1: of weather system of conspiratorial thinking has been surprising to

2982
02:48:14,520 --> 02:48:16,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't understand this stuff. But

2983
02:48:16,280 --> 02:48:18,640
Speaker 1: it makes total sense if you if you have been

2984
02:48:18,680 --> 02:48:22,840
Speaker 1: paying attention to the scholarship on on what is actually

2985
02:48:23,040 --> 02:48:26,840
Speaker 1: like how cults sort of form like it's it's it's um.

2986
02:48:27,160 --> 02:48:29,600
Speaker 1: It's like a weather pattern that's been building for quite

2987
02:48:29,600 --> 02:48:32,280
Speaker 1: a while. There's a gravity to it that sucks um

2988
02:48:32,800 --> 02:48:35,879
Speaker 1: everything in together, and it all kind of it's as

2989
02:48:35,879 --> 02:48:39,920
Speaker 1: you said, syncretic um. It's because not to get into

2990
02:48:39,959 --> 02:48:41,400
Speaker 1: horseshoe there, but this is even how you get some

2991
02:48:41,480 --> 02:48:44,000
Speaker 1: of that crossover, right, Yes, yeah, that was that was

2992
02:48:44,240 --> 02:48:45,440
Speaker 1: That was what I was just gonna mention, is that

2993
02:48:45,640 --> 02:48:47,800
Speaker 1: even a lot of like the left wing authors or

2994
02:48:47,879 --> 02:48:50,000
Speaker 1: you know, post left wing authors who got into this

2995
02:48:50,160 --> 02:48:54,080
Speaker 1: like cultural mysticism. Um, you see their texts now getting

2996
02:48:54,160 --> 02:48:57,039
Speaker 1: shared by like like open fascists. Even though these authors

2997
02:48:57,120 --> 02:49:00,879
Speaker 1: were anti fascist, Um, they are able to still pick

2998
02:49:00,920 --> 02:49:03,560
Speaker 1: and choose what parts they're writing to appropriate because some

2999
02:49:03,680 --> 02:49:10,280
Speaker 1: of it can kind of synchronize ends a very long time.

3000
02:49:10,400 --> 02:49:12,279
Speaker 1: Like if you we've we talked about in our Gabriel

3001
02:49:12,360 --> 02:49:14,880
Speaker 1: the Nunzio episodes Fume, which was this kind of like

3002
02:49:15,040 --> 02:49:19,240
Speaker 1: we're a large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement

3003
02:49:19,320 --> 02:49:22,400
Speaker 1: got started, um in the post World War One period,

3004
02:49:22,440 --> 02:49:24,320
Speaker 1: but also there were like a ton of anarchists and

3005
02:49:24,400 --> 02:49:28,000
Speaker 1: a lot of like left wing um like thought leaders

3006
02:49:28,040 --> 02:49:30,160
Speaker 1: and whatnot. We're kind of all it was again kind

3007
02:49:30,160 --> 02:49:32,720
Speaker 1: of there there was this kind of like gravity center

3008
02:49:32,840 --> 02:49:35,720
Speaker 1: that pulled everything in and it all started churning together.

3009
02:49:36,360 --> 02:49:41,000
Speaker 1: And um, yeah, we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now,

3010
02:49:41,480 --> 02:49:47,120
Speaker 1: um and it sucks. That's great to jump back to

3011
02:49:47,160 --> 02:49:49,000
Speaker 1: campl That's one of those examples of those physical space

3012
02:49:49,040 --> 02:49:52,080
Speaker 1: of the call and that call Campbell was talking about right, Um,

3013
02:49:53,120 --> 02:49:55,520
Speaker 1: where it's it's any place that ideas that are rejected

3014
02:49:55,600 --> 02:49:59,920
Speaker 1: by you know, the orthodox kind of the establishment they're

3015
02:50:00,120 --> 02:50:03,120
Speaker 1: is overlap. There is not necessarily ideological overlap, but there

3016
02:50:03,240 --> 02:50:05,920
Speaker 1: is an interplay between them as people move between them

3017
02:50:05,920 --> 02:50:08,760
Speaker 1: and as these ideas come into collision with one another.

3018
02:50:09,400 --> 02:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Um and with the Internet, right, whole different fucking ball game.

3019
02:50:14,920 --> 02:50:21,800
Speaker 1: Um yeah, because that space is now everywhere exactly and

3020
02:50:22,000 --> 02:50:26,240
Speaker 1: and telegram specifically has these specific affordances that make it

3021
02:50:26,360 --> 02:50:31,119
Speaker 1: ideal for having this soup of bullshit on it as well. Um,

3022
02:50:31,320 --> 02:50:35,240
Speaker 1: it's it's additionally one of and this may be changing.

3023
02:50:35,240 --> 02:50:37,640
Speaker 1: There's a lot of discussion going on about this, especially

3024
02:50:37,720 --> 02:50:40,480
Speaker 1: within the German government, who could actually they already have

3025
02:50:40,480 --> 02:50:42,840
Speaker 1: a law that they could use to say, hey, you

3026
02:50:42,920 --> 02:50:45,200
Speaker 1: can't have Nazis on you can't have this Nazi ship

3027
02:50:45,800 --> 02:50:50,039
Speaker 1: in telegram. Um. But telegrams one of these last places

3028
02:50:50,560 --> 02:50:53,680
Speaker 1: where where things are largely allowed to spread without any

3029
02:50:53,800 --> 02:50:58,280
Speaker 1: kind of interruption, right, um, which I do think you

3030
02:50:58,360 --> 02:51:00,640
Speaker 1: know you look at telegram is used in in um,

3031
02:51:01,360 --> 02:51:03,800
Speaker 1: the Hong Kong Uprising as well, it was used for

3032
02:51:04,879 --> 02:51:08,640
Speaker 1: it was used in the George Yeah, George Floyd uprising

3033
02:51:08,680 --> 02:51:12,920
Speaker 1: as well. Um. And it's the same things that people

3034
02:51:12,959 --> 02:51:16,920
Speaker 1: too at time is fake, um, bolish lane of your time. Um.

3035
02:51:18,160 --> 02:51:23,280
Speaker 1: But shooting your clock, Shoot the fucking clock. But okay,

3036
02:51:23,879 --> 02:51:26,600
Speaker 1: let's get back to the topic. Yeah, but but but

3037
02:51:26,800 --> 02:51:28,920
Speaker 1: but drumming back into this Telegram markets itself, is this

3038
02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:32,840
Speaker 1: very secure platform. It's probably not right. It does have

3039
02:51:33,120 --> 02:51:35,880
Speaker 1: it's certainly not. No, yeah, absolutely not. It does have.

3040
02:51:36,320 --> 02:51:39,000
Speaker 1: It does have encrypted chats, but that's only for one

3041
02:51:39,080 --> 02:51:42,320
Speaker 1: to one messaging between people. And even then you need

3042
02:51:42,360 --> 02:51:44,480
Speaker 1: to go and make you sure that security settings right.

3043
02:51:44,520 --> 02:51:48,200
Speaker 1: And again I I don't fully trust that. Yeah, I

3044
02:51:48,320 --> 02:51:57,320
Speaker 1: don't fully try. I mean signal is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

3045
02:51:57,320 --> 02:52:00,640
Speaker 1: I trust conversations when everyone has put their own inside

3046
02:52:00,680 --> 02:52:03,119
Speaker 1: a Faraday bag in a house and then we walked

3047
02:52:03,160 --> 02:52:06,160
Speaker 1: two miles into we walked two miles into the woods,

3048
02:52:06,200 --> 02:52:10,440
Speaker 1: then you can have a conversation. Yeah. Um, but Telegram

3049
02:52:10,480 --> 02:52:13,960
Speaker 1: market itself is very secure app right, um, which is

3050
02:52:14,000 --> 02:52:16,240
Speaker 1: which is largely marketing. You know, it's it's appeal is

3051
02:52:16,280 --> 02:52:19,000
Speaker 1: that it's not WhatsApp, it's not owned by Facebook. It's

3052
02:52:19,000 --> 02:52:21,920
Speaker 1: probably worth acknowledging that for because it's also very popular

3053
02:52:22,000 --> 02:52:24,280
Speaker 1: with a lot of people in um, you know, parts

3054
02:52:24,320 --> 02:52:27,240
Speaker 1: of the global South and countries with authoritarian governments, and

3055
02:52:27,320 --> 02:52:29,359
Speaker 1: it is has been used for a lot of organizing.

3056
02:52:29,400 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 1: It can be more secure and all more secure, but

3057
02:52:33,160 --> 02:52:37,720
Speaker 1: also more accessible um than what than any other tool

3058
02:52:37,800 --> 02:52:40,080
Speaker 1: people have access to. I mean in Syria, it's like

3059
02:52:40,320 --> 02:52:44,320
Speaker 1: it's again extremely common for like neighbors, like neighborhoods and

3060
02:52:44,400 --> 02:52:46,920
Speaker 1: towns will have like Telegram groups for this little village

3061
02:52:46,959 --> 02:52:49,280
Speaker 1: where they A lot of stuff gets done over Telegram

3062
02:52:49,360 --> 02:52:52,200
Speaker 1: in places like that. And Telegram sits in this interesting

3063
02:52:52,360 --> 02:52:55,880
Speaker 1: space between social media. UM. It's not a full on

3064
02:52:55,920 --> 02:52:58,199
Speaker 1: social media site, but it's also not just a messaging

3065
02:52:58,240 --> 02:53:01,960
Speaker 1: app like Telegram. It's kind of to categorize. It is

3066
02:53:02,000 --> 02:53:05,080
Speaker 1: an interesting sort of like in between type thing. Yeah,

3067
02:53:05,080 --> 02:53:09,080
Speaker 1: because you can have essentially unlimited I think the number

3068
02:53:09,200 --> 02:53:11,480
Speaker 1: is in the hundreds of thousands for how many people

3069
02:53:11,520 --> 02:53:15,880
Speaker 1: can join a group message UM on Telegram. And you

3070
02:53:15,920 --> 02:53:19,240
Speaker 1: also have these one way messaging thing called channels, where

3071
02:53:19,360 --> 02:53:21,160
Speaker 1: where one person or group of people can send out

3072
02:53:21,200 --> 02:53:26,680
Speaker 1: messages that appear alongside everyone else's message feed as well. UM,

3073
02:53:27,720 --> 02:53:30,000
Speaker 1: and that can you can also enable comments on that UM,

3074
02:53:30,040 --> 02:53:32,920
Speaker 1: which I'll get into in a second. UM. But but

3075
02:53:33,040 --> 02:53:35,760
Speaker 1: it's a great way to share information as well. And

3076
02:53:35,840 --> 02:53:38,800
Speaker 1: what I was specifically looking at is the forwarding of

3077
02:53:38,920 --> 02:53:41,200
Speaker 1: messages because you you can forward a message from this

3078
02:53:41,280 --> 02:53:44,360
Speaker 1: one channel into whatever group chat you're in, and it

3079
02:53:44,480 --> 02:53:47,120
Speaker 1: links back to that channel. And I was interested in saying,

3080
02:53:47,879 --> 02:53:50,360
Speaker 1: how far you know, what connections can we make from this?

3081
02:53:50,480 --> 02:53:54,600
Speaker 1: What kind of zigzagging can we find? Um enhancer is

3082
02:53:54,640 --> 02:54:00,560
Speaker 1: sucking a lot yea where where someone may may used

3083
02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:04,080
Speaker 1: Telegram for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and

3084
02:54:04,120 --> 02:54:07,600
Speaker 1: then someone forwards a messages a message for this channel

3085
02:54:08,000 --> 02:54:10,880
Speaker 1: UM or for this other group message UM, where they

3086
02:54:10,920 --> 02:54:13,920
Speaker 1: talk about, oh, here's kind of help practices to use.

3087
02:54:14,000 --> 02:54:17,720
Speaker 1: And then you get into the pseudo science of things

3088
02:54:17,800 --> 02:54:20,880
Speaker 1: crossing into further messages from what's forward forward groups and

3089
02:54:20,959 --> 02:54:23,520
Speaker 1: channels from what's forwarded into that group and channel, and

3090
02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:25,320
Speaker 1: so on so on, until you get to the neo

3091
02:54:25,400 --> 02:54:29,240
Speaker 1: nazis eventually UM. And it's also it is it is

3092
02:54:29,320 --> 02:54:33,360
Speaker 1: a concerted effort on the part of people pushing their ideology,

3093
02:54:34,160 --> 02:54:37,560
Speaker 1: who will go in the comments of these giant channels

3094
02:54:37,600 --> 02:54:43,160
Speaker 1: and say, hey, check out my channel. Um, what's not

3095
02:54:43,280 --> 02:54:46,760
Speaker 1: a real one? You know Aaryan cooking which is probably

3096
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:50,800
Speaker 1: a channel but probably is great job check sorry, but

3097
02:54:51,959 --> 02:54:54,640
Speaker 1: check out check out, check out, check out this or whatever.

3098
02:54:54,840 --> 02:54:58,680
Speaker 1: And and especially when q and on moved on a

3099
02:54:58,800 --> 02:55:02,760
Speaker 1: lot of promoters, it was awful. Um, there there was

3100
02:55:02,959 --> 02:55:06,800
Speaker 1: organized groups of of internet neo Nazis going on and

3101
02:55:06,879 --> 02:55:11,760
Speaker 1: trying to pill boomers into neo Nazism. And because of

3102
02:55:11,879 --> 02:55:14,600
Speaker 1: the because of the mesh like network of Telegram, they

3103
02:55:14,680 --> 02:55:18,520
Speaker 1: try to make those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can.

3104
02:55:18,680 --> 02:55:20,800
Speaker 1: You know, people who are dedicated to these more esoteric

3105
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:24,920
Speaker 1: groups can join more regular like MARKA groups or qut

3106
02:55:25,000 --> 02:55:28,720
Speaker 1: on groups and start slowly bringing links to the start

3107
02:55:28,800 --> 02:55:32,480
Speaker 1: doing links and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um.

3108
02:55:32,879 --> 02:55:35,360
Speaker 1: And eventually yeah, that does that does work. It can

3109
02:55:35,400 --> 02:55:38,040
Speaker 1: be a slow, careful process um, or it can be

3110
02:55:38,240 --> 02:55:43,320
Speaker 1: very fast and like bombastic. And it'll depending on the person.

3111
02:55:43,480 --> 02:55:45,480
Speaker 1: One of them will latch onto one, one will watch

3112
02:55:45,560 --> 02:55:50,440
Speaker 1: onto the other. Yeah. And and before the article came out, UM,

3113
02:55:50,520 --> 02:55:54,600
Speaker 1: what I did see was the specific thing of accounts

3114
02:55:54,640 --> 02:55:57,520
Speaker 1: that I would associate or or believe to be neo

3115
02:55:57,600 --> 02:56:01,520
Speaker 1: Nazi um encouraging people to join their groups and channels

3116
02:56:02,080 --> 02:56:05,400
Speaker 1: UM in the in the telegram group message as well.

3117
02:56:06,600 --> 02:56:08,320
Speaker 1: And I cannot speak to what that looks like right

3118
02:56:08,400 --> 02:56:12,160
Speaker 1: now after the article has come out, yeah, and I've

3119
02:56:12,440 --> 02:56:14,880
Speaker 1: been trying to take a break from telegram for my

3120
02:56:15,000 --> 02:56:18,360
Speaker 1: day to day life, um and focus on reading actual books.

3121
02:56:18,600 --> 02:56:21,360
Speaker 1: So but yeah, that is I can always tell when

3122
02:56:21,440 --> 02:56:24,000
Speaker 1: one of us has been spending time on telegram because

3123
02:56:25,160 --> 02:56:31,120
Speaker 1: the things we consider jokes get much worse. Yeah. You

3124
02:56:31,160 --> 02:56:36,360
Speaker 1: remember when I found that playlist of Blinks covers. It

3125
02:56:36,480 --> 02:56:39,520
Speaker 1: was what there was like a hundred of them or

3126
02:56:39,520 --> 02:56:46,320
Speaker 1: some full. Yeah, you always find you could, You could

3127
02:56:46,360 --> 02:56:49,080
Speaker 1: find the most fucked up stuff. Don't don't do it.

3128
02:56:49,280 --> 02:56:52,400
Speaker 1: Don't don't scroll untilsolutely do not. You're not going to

3129
02:56:52,480 --> 02:56:54,879
Speaker 1: get this isn't like covering the same you don't need

3130
02:56:54,920 --> 02:56:58,640
Speaker 1: to be It's it's not even it's not worth it,

3131
02:56:58,800 --> 02:57:02,320
Speaker 1: Like there's no sacred novel like knowledge that we're hiding.

3132
02:57:02,800 --> 02:57:05,400
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's just kind of sucks, like it

3133
02:57:05,560 --> 02:57:08,040
Speaker 1: just like it just to feel bad. Yeah, it just

3134
02:57:08,200 --> 02:57:12,040
Speaker 1: makes you feel worse about life and yourself and the

3135
02:57:12,120 --> 02:57:15,560
Speaker 1: people around you. So the scope for your master's project

3136
02:57:15,640 --> 02:57:17,520
Speaker 1: what it's kind of the what's the what's the deal

3137
02:57:17,600 --> 02:57:22,760
Speaker 1: with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah. So,

3138
02:57:22,920 --> 02:57:25,520
Speaker 1: so using this social network analysis to argue that the

3139
02:57:25,640 --> 02:57:31,560
Speaker 1: telegram does function as this cultic milieu. Um. Which yeah,

3140
02:57:31,800 --> 02:57:36,720
Speaker 1: that seems which seems to be the case. Yeah. Um,

3141
02:57:37,640 --> 02:57:39,840
Speaker 1: you know, and the question gets into what is the

3142
02:57:39,879 --> 02:57:43,640
Speaker 1: responsibility the platform? Right? Um? Because I fully believe there

3143
02:57:43,720 --> 02:57:49,120
Speaker 1: should be something at least similar to this. It has

3144
02:57:49,200 --> 02:57:51,920
Speaker 1: been used for you know, purposes the longe with my politics,

3145
02:57:52,000 --> 02:57:57,440
Speaker 1: in which I would call good and needed. Um. However,

3146
02:57:57,560 --> 02:58:02,520
Speaker 1: they've also allowed this fucking awful system to spread. It's

3147
02:58:02,560 --> 02:58:04,720
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see when telegram has had to step

3148
02:58:04,800 --> 02:58:07,440
Speaker 1: in and they you know, they have pulled down some ices,

3149
02:58:07,480 --> 02:58:13,480
Speaker 1: accounts and channels. Um. And and they have down when

3150
02:58:13,520 --> 02:58:16,040
Speaker 1: I was in um Al Hall, which is that the

3151
02:58:16,080 --> 02:58:18,280
Speaker 1: camp where all the ISIS prisoners were in Syria, Like

3152
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:20,560
Speaker 1: while Jake and I were in the camp, we could

3153
02:58:20,640 --> 02:58:24,400
Speaker 1: see on telegram like ISIS supporters and al hole talking

3154
02:58:24,440 --> 02:58:28,520
Speaker 1: about stabbing guards like in real time. It was not

3155
02:58:29,120 --> 02:58:33,400
Speaker 1: particularly Uh. They've done like a lot. There's less of

3156
02:58:33,440 --> 02:58:35,000
Speaker 1: it than there used to be, but it is still

3157
02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:37,680
Speaker 1: not hard to find ices on telegram. Yeah. And they

3158
02:58:37,840 --> 02:58:42,760
Speaker 1: they've taken down a few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um.

3159
02:58:42,840 --> 02:58:46,280
Speaker 1: It's it's funny because oh God, maybe cut this. But

3160
02:58:46,840 --> 02:58:48,680
Speaker 1: they've taken on some of the nasty channels when they've

3161
02:58:48,680 --> 02:58:52,680
Speaker 1: shared iceis Ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think we're

3162
02:58:53,000 --> 02:58:55,560
Speaker 1: we've were familiar with that line of thing. That's something

3163
02:58:55,600 --> 02:59:00,120
Speaker 1: we've mentioned before. There has been pressure from from the

3164
02:59:00,200 --> 02:59:02,800
Speaker 1: play Store and Google as well, or the play Store

3165
02:59:02,840 --> 02:59:06,320
Speaker 1: from Google and and the app store Apple App Store

3166
02:59:06,800 --> 02:59:09,920
Speaker 1: from Apple to say we we aren't going to carry

3167
02:59:09,959 --> 02:59:13,800
Speaker 1: the app if you don't do just a tiny bit

3168
02:59:13,879 --> 02:59:18,560
Speaker 1: better essentially UM which which which also it exists as

3169
02:59:18,640 --> 02:59:21,480
Speaker 1: a web client, UM, both as as a web client

3170
02:59:21,640 --> 02:59:24,800
Speaker 1: and as a desktop app as well. UM. But that

3171
02:59:24,879 --> 02:59:28,680
Speaker 1: would you know, limit some of it um. So, So

3172
02:59:28,800 --> 02:59:32,720
Speaker 1: this has become largely discussed in the German in the

3173
02:59:32,760 --> 02:59:36,320
Speaker 1: German Parliament because there's a new UM, there's a new

3174
02:59:36,360 --> 02:59:39,760
Speaker 1: government in Germany, and and there is this history of

3175
02:59:41,000 --> 02:59:46,879
Speaker 1: Germany kind of is the lead for doing things about

3176
02:59:46,920 --> 02:59:51,120
Speaker 1: this digital content, especially within the EU. And and as

3177
02:59:51,200 --> 02:59:54,119
Speaker 1: I mentioned, there's already alawcal adopt Enforcement Act that requires

3178
02:59:55,160 --> 02:59:58,200
Speaker 1: platforms to take down content in Germany. UM that could

3179
02:59:58,240 --> 03:00:03,280
Speaker 1: be implemented on telegram as well. There's already a law. Yeah,

3180
03:00:03,440 --> 03:00:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like the thing why you know

3181
03:00:07,080 --> 03:00:09,760
Speaker 1: what I watch happen lots is you know these channels

3182
03:00:09,760 --> 03:00:11,480
Speaker 1: will get shut down and they'll make a new one,

3183
03:00:11,560 --> 03:00:12,960
Speaker 1: and it will shut down that one and make a

3184
03:00:13,000 --> 03:00:14,600
Speaker 1: new one. Right. It's this you see this with like

3185
03:00:14,680 --> 03:00:18,760
Speaker 1: discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of this endless cycle. Um.

3186
03:00:19,240 --> 03:00:22,200
Speaker 1: And seeking an end to the cycle is always not

3187
03:00:22,400 --> 03:00:26,440
Speaker 1: as easy as what one would hope, UM, because of

3188
03:00:26,600 --> 03:00:29,920
Speaker 1: the cyclical nature of building these platforms and connections and

3189
03:00:30,040 --> 03:00:32,240
Speaker 1: how the people who run these you know, intersect and

3190
03:00:32,280 --> 03:00:34,920
Speaker 1: specifically with with telegrams really easy because the channel gets

3191
03:00:34,920 --> 03:00:37,279
Speaker 1: shut down, you're still part of twelve of their channels,

3192
03:00:37,280 --> 03:00:39,000
Speaker 1: and odds are one of those channels is going to

3193
03:00:39,000 --> 03:00:40,800
Speaker 1: afford you the link to the new channel that was

3194
03:00:40,959 --> 03:00:43,160
Speaker 1: that was lost. Yeah, And this is the thing you

3195
03:00:43,200 --> 03:00:47,199
Speaker 1: see where they send lists of channels within within extremest

3196
03:00:47,200 --> 03:00:48,560
Speaker 1: groups and channels, they will send out a list of

3197
03:00:48,600 --> 03:00:52,280
Speaker 1: here's other groups and channels to check out as well. Yeah,

3198
03:00:52,400 --> 03:00:54,800
Speaker 1: but I mean I would So that's something that's you know,

3199
03:00:54,959 --> 03:00:57,640
Speaker 1: hard for regular people to actually do. But something I

3200
03:00:57,720 --> 03:01:00,720
Speaker 1: think that people who do not own the platforms nor

3201
03:01:00,840 --> 03:01:06,320
Speaker 1: lawmakers can't think about is particularly the the cultic milieu

3202
03:01:06,560 --> 03:01:09,840
Speaker 1: that does you know, go past regular left right divisions

3203
03:01:10,120 --> 03:01:13,200
Speaker 1: in terms of politics and how you know, symbol like

3204
03:01:13,400 --> 03:01:18,440
Speaker 1: symbology um and stuff that was you know initially, you know,

3205
03:01:18,840 --> 03:01:22,480
Speaker 1: perhaps more anarchist or or left wing is being used

3206
03:01:22,600 --> 03:01:25,440
Speaker 1: by people on the right, and some people are really

3207
03:01:25,440 --> 03:01:27,760
Speaker 1: confused by that, and there is ways to there is

3208
03:01:27,760 --> 03:01:29,560
Speaker 1: ways to understand it, like it is. It does. I

3209
03:01:30,040 --> 03:01:32,280
Speaker 1: am very frustrated when I look at you know, people

3210
03:01:32,320 --> 03:01:36,920
Speaker 1: online who don't understand why Nazis can use ted K

3211
03:01:37,680 --> 03:01:40,280
Speaker 1: and right, it's like, yeah, like it's it's not it's

3212
03:01:40,280 --> 03:01:41,560
Speaker 1: it's not it's not not not what It's not not

3213
03:01:41,600 --> 03:01:44,800
Speaker 1: really about what ted K actually wrote. It's more the

3214
03:01:45,320 --> 03:01:49,120
Speaker 1: symbolic meme of ted K and trying to you know,

3215
03:01:49,240 --> 03:01:51,760
Speaker 1: get that, get that line of thinking across is not

3216
03:01:51,840 --> 03:01:53,560
Speaker 1: the easiest thing because sometimes it will go in the

3217
03:01:53,600 --> 03:01:55,680
Speaker 1: other direction and be like, oh ted K is a Nazi,

3218
03:01:55,800 --> 03:01:58,120
Speaker 1: which isn't accurate either, Like that's that's not also the

3219
03:01:58,200 --> 03:02:01,840
Speaker 1: most accurate thing to say. So it's it's the cultivalu

3220
03:02:02,000 --> 03:02:05,040
Speaker 1: framework of being. Yeah, sometimes these symbols can cross over

3221
03:02:05,080 --> 03:02:07,640
Speaker 1: from one thing to another, and sometimes the action can

3222
03:02:07,680 --> 03:02:10,879
Speaker 1: be the same. You know, both anarchists and like instructionary

3223
03:02:10,920 --> 03:02:14,480
Speaker 1: fascists both want to like attack, like industrialization and attack

3224
03:02:14,560 --> 03:02:17,880
Speaker 1: points of industry, right, but maybe their ideologies are slightly different,

3225
03:02:18,080 --> 03:02:21,640
Speaker 1: sometimes in specific ways, so it's always a tricky thing

3226
03:02:21,680 --> 03:02:25,280
Speaker 1: to kind of navigate. UM. So I think in terms

3227
03:02:25,320 --> 03:02:27,960
Speaker 1: of you know, people should think about what symbols they promote,

3228
03:02:28,560 --> 03:02:31,000
Speaker 1: uh like publicly and stuff is a good thing, and

3229
03:02:31,240 --> 03:02:36,040
Speaker 1: think about news aggregation and how to maybe not not

3230
03:02:36,320 --> 03:02:39,720
Speaker 1: just share something because it's countercultural trying to figure out

3231
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:43,279
Speaker 1: what other what other types of narratives the sources spreading

3232
03:02:43,920 --> 03:02:47,760
Speaker 1: UM support the work of real journalists because a bunch

3233
03:02:47,760 --> 03:02:50,480
Speaker 1: of kick asks people out there um who are doing

3234
03:02:50,480 --> 03:02:54,960
Speaker 1: awesome research and work. So I think that kind of

3235
03:02:55,040 --> 03:02:56,600
Speaker 1: wraps up the scope of what I want to talk

3236
03:02:56,640 --> 03:02:59,880
Speaker 1: about around disclose specifically because I mean, discloses a thing.

3237
03:03:00,240 --> 03:03:02,240
Speaker 1: But it's also like it's good as just like an

3238
03:03:02,280 --> 03:03:06,840
Speaker 1: example to like this over this broader like phenomenon, I think, UM,

3239
03:03:07,040 --> 03:03:10,240
Speaker 1: because like disclose won't be here forever hopefully like you know,

3240
03:03:10,360 --> 03:03:12,200
Speaker 1: hopefully in a few years. It's something that we can

3241
03:03:12,240 --> 03:03:15,240
Speaker 1: just like look back on and laugh about. Um. But

3242
03:03:15,560 --> 03:03:17,880
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's still a good signifier for a

3243
03:03:17,920 --> 03:03:21,160
Speaker 1: phenomenon that happens, and the phenomenon even even if disclose

3244
03:03:21,200 --> 03:03:23,760
Speaker 1: goes away, the phenomenon is still going to stay, um,

3245
03:03:23,840 --> 03:03:26,000
Speaker 1: and it's important to point it out when you see

3246
03:03:26,080 --> 03:03:29,080
Speaker 1: whatever the next version of this is. So, And I'll

3247
03:03:29,120 --> 03:03:32,879
Speaker 1: also say that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right.

3248
03:03:33,320 --> 03:03:35,600
Speaker 1: This is you know where where the stuff that is

3249
03:03:35,640 --> 03:03:40,440
Speaker 1: rejected by the Orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any

3250
03:03:40,520 --> 03:03:42,640
Speaker 1: kind of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the

3251
03:03:42,680 --> 03:03:45,680
Speaker 1: fucking same and falls in line with orthox belief, which

3252
03:03:45,680 --> 03:03:48,880
Speaker 1: I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there is

3253
03:03:48,920 --> 03:03:53,920
Speaker 1: a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist.

3254
03:03:54,920 --> 03:03:59,520
Speaker 1: I would say responsibility in which you were consuming and sharing. Yeah,

3255
03:03:59,560 --> 03:04:01,240
Speaker 1: it's that, I would say, like most people who are

3256
03:04:01,280 --> 03:04:05,320
Speaker 1: actually counterculture are Yeah, like actual punk is is that

3257
03:04:05,600 --> 03:04:09,080
Speaker 1: you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical of viewpoints that

3258
03:04:09,800 --> 03:04:12,800
Speaker 1: that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing into what

3259
03:04:12,879 --> 03:04:18,640
Speaker 1: the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary. Pistols

3260
03:04:18,680 --> 03:04:23,280
Speaker 1: would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But I

3261
03:04:23,400 --> 03:04:25,520
Speaker 1: think we can all agree that having living members of

3262
03:04:25,560 --> 03:04:28,480
Speaker 1: the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would I

3263
03:04:28,600 --> 03:04:31,880
Speaker 1: prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway, So

3264
03:04:32,480 --> 03:04:37,000
Speaker 1: hey who cares? UM? So thank you for your work, Thomas. UM.

3265
03:04:37,240 --> 03:04:40,400
Speaker 1: I would recommend people reach your article, UM, which you

3266
03:04:40,480 --> 03:04:44,320
Speaker 1: can do by googling disclosed TV. Now it will be

3267
03:04:44,720 --> 03:04:46,360
Speaker 1: for me. It's the second result that pops up, so

3268
03:04:46,440 --> 03:04:49,320
Speaker 1: that school, UM send it to all your friends and

3269
03:04:49,480 --> 03:04:52,039
Speaker 1: mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can find

3270
03:04:52,080 --> 03:04:55,240
Speaker 1: it on logically dot Ai is the website and the

3271
03:04:55,320 --> 03:04:58,640
Speaker 1: full title of the article is disclosed TV conspiracy Forum

3272
03:04:58,720 --> 03:05:02,840
Speaker 1: turned disinformation fact Re. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM.

3273
03:05:03,200 --> 03:05:05,320
Speaker 1: Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account

3274
03:05:05,360 --> 03:05:06,840
Speaker 1: or do you want to be a ghost that fades

3275
03:05:06,840 --> 03:05:10,039
Speaker 1: away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird.

3276
03:05:10,080 --> 03:05:14,760
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at w underscore Underscore Thomas,

3277
03:05:14,840 --> 03:05:19,200
Speaker 1: God damnit, Christ be weird? All right, I guess I'm

3278
03:05:19,280 --> 03:05:24,600
Speaker 1: keeping my account Lockford. UM. Yeah, I also want to

3279
03:05:24,640 --> 03:05:28,000
Speaker 1: shout out, UM, some of the local mutual aid or

3280
03:05:28,120 --> 03:05:30,200
Speaker 1: one of the local mutual aid groups in the town

3281
03:05:30,240 --> 03:05:32,119
Speaker 1: where I live or in the area where I lives.

3282
03:05:32,400 --> 03:05:36,680
Speaker 1: The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol

3283
03:05:36,800 --> 03:05:38,840
Speaker 1: a t L mutual fund and their venomos a t

3284
03:05:39,000 --> 03:05:44,040
Speaker 1: L Mutual Fund. They're helping out. Um they they've done weekly,

3285
03:05:44,560 --> 03:05:49,039
Speaker 1: UM weekly provided food and resources for people, and how's

3286
03:05:49,080 --> 03:05:52,959
Speaker 1: people living in downtown Atlanta. Um and are a great group.

3287
03:05:53,360 --> 03:05:56,280
Speaker 1: And then also people want to give more money to things.

3288
03:05:56,360 --> 03:05:59,320
Speaker 1: Shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund who have helped many of

3289
03:05:59,400 --> 03:06:01,480
Speaker 1: my friends it out of jail after they were arrested

3290
03:06:01,520 --> 03:06:07,200
Speaker 1: at protests. And also you can hire me, yes if

3291
03:06:07,280 --> 03:06:10,600
Speaker 1: you researchers, Yes you can. You can't. You can hire

3292
03:06:10,680 --> 03:06:13,400
Speaker 1: Thomas if you want. I mean, I've I've I've I've

3293
03:06:13,480 --> 03:06:19,280
Speaker 1: known Thomas for a bit. Um they do really good work. Um. Yeah,

3294
03:06:19,360 --> 03:06:22,000
Speaker 1: they're very They're very they're in my experience, they're very

3295
03:06:22,040 --> 03:06:25,480
Speaker 1: careful researcher. They will not say things without thinking about

3296
03:06:25,520 --> 03:06:28,240
Speaker 1: them a lot first, which is always great in a researcher,

3297
03:06:29,520 --> 03:06:33,960
Speaker 1: or at least not send them money and off putting comments.

3298
03:06:34,160 --> 03:06:37,720
Speaker 1: An even mix of money and really off putting Twitter comments.

3299
03:06:38,160 --> 03:06:39,720
Speaker 1: One more shot out to my one more shot out

3300
03:06:39,760 --> 03:06:41,840
Speaker 1: to my friends at Terroorism Bad Pod, which you should

3301
03:06:41,879 --> 03:06:44,640
Speaker 1: listen to and is on Twitter at Terrorism Bad Pod.

3302
03:06:46,200 --> 03:06:48,720
Speaker 1: Well that does it for us today. If you, for

3303
03:06:48,840 --> 03:06:51,160
Speaker 1: some reason are on social media and you want to

3304
03:06:51,200 --> 03:06:53,080
Speaker 1: follow us. You can follow us at cool Zone Media

3305
03:06:53,720 --> 03:06:56,960
Speaker 1: or happen or happen here pod um. You can follow

3306
03:06:57,200 --> 03:07:00,600
Speaker 1: Robert Evans at I Write Okay, send him weirdly, do

3307
03:07:00,760 --> 03:07:03,600
Speaker 1: not do that, and you can send me weird messages

3308
03:07:03,840 --> 03:07:09,520
Speaker 1: at creepo time. All right, seem garrison pictures of salads

3309
03:07:09,560 --> 03:07:12,520
Speaker 1: that you make, and keep keep doing that for like

3310
03:07:12,640 --> 03:07:15,160
Speaker 1: five or six years, to the point that it actually

3311
03:07:15,200 --> 03:07:17,280
Speaker 1: becomes funny, because it's going to take a while. I'm

3312
03:07:17,320 --> 03:07:19,520
Speaker 1: just happy that people stop sending me deal porn. So

3313
03:07:20,320 --> 03:07:25,320
Speaker 1: that's honestly, that's a wind that one's on you though. Alright,

3314
03:07:28,080 --> 03:07:43,160
Speaker 1: good finde forbody. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more

3315
03:07:43,240 --> 03:07:45,880
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

3316
03:07:45,920 --> 03:07:48,680
Speaker 1: the universe. It could Happen Here is a production of

3317
03:07:48,720 --> 03:07:51,640
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media.

3318
03:07:51,760 --> 03:07:54,200
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

3319
03:07:54,280 --> 03:07:56,560
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3320
03:07:56,680 --> 03:07:59,640
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

3321
03:07:59,680 --> 03:08:02,480
Speaker 1: for to Happen Here updated monthly at cool zone Media

3322
03:08:02,600 --> 03:08:05,000
Speaker 1: dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.