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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: We are back with a little hiatus update, this time

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Speaker 1: all about you, hasted Facebook. Now, if you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to Tyodi for any amount of time, you know that

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Speaker 1: Facebook is the platform I love to Hey, I think

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Speaker 1: it's an evil company that has profited from destabilizing democracies

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Speaker 1: and hurting already marginalized communities. Hate Facebook, hate them, can't

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Speaker 1: stand them. And last week we've learned a lot more

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Speaker 1: about just how aware of Facebook is about the harm

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Speaker 1: their platform causes in our communities. I joined my friends

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Speaker 1: Annie and Samantha at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told

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Speaker 1: You to discuss the harm that Facebook causes young women

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Speaker 1: and girls, revealed in the bombshell Wall Street Journal expose

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Speaker 1: based on documents and data from former Facebook employee turn

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Speaker 1: whistleblower Francis Hagen. But Hagen is not the only person

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Speaker 1: who has blown the whistle on Facebook's shady practices, and

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Speaker 1: next week we'll hear from Sophiejong, a former Facebook employee

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Speaker 1: who blew the whistle on Facebook last year. Trust me

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Speaker 1: when I say you will not want to miss her

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Speaker 1: incredible story. But in the meantime, here's my deep dive

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Speaker 1: and the Facebook's damaging impact on peen girls on stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 1: I don't welcome to stuff I've never told your production

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Speaker 1: for I HI Radio Today, we are so thrilled to

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Speaker 1: once again be joined by the amazing Bridget Todd. Hello Bridget,

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Speaker 1: Hello Annie, Hello Sam. I'm so excited to be here

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Speaker 1: back with y'all again. Always a delight. We're so excited

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Speaker 1: to have you because, as we were just discussing, you

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Speaker 1: have brought to the table a topic we wanted to address.

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Speaker 1: We knew super important, but we were like, we've better

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Speaker 1: wait for Bridget, because Bridget, you have got more no no,

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Speaker 1: how then than either of us do. You've worked with Facebook,

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Speaker 1: You've interacted with these social media companies, You've just been

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Speaker 1: a huge activist and a very outspoken in this area,

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Speaker 1: and so so excited where you're talking about this today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and also when we're talking about social media, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna lie. You're one of the people that I see

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Speaker 1: the most of in all of my social media is

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Speaker 1: whether it's Twitter, Istram typically more Twitter, and then like Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I see your face and the amazing things you're doing,

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Speaker 1: and I have to ask, I cannot figure out how

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Speaker 1: you're doing everything that you are doing because you're constantly

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Speaker 1: on go, Like I see you in all the panels

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Speaker 1: and all the conversations, all the interviews. Everybody wants to

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Speaker 1: talk to you, of course, but also you live what

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Speaker 1: I am seeing to be my fantasy life in the travel, Like,

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Speaker 1: is this your real life? Are you as fantastically living

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Speaker 1: as I see? Because I'm quite jealous of all of

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Speaker 1: the beautiful trips, all of the sunset pictures, all the

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Speaker 1: lovely like sitting by the water pictures. What is this life?

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Speaker 1: What is your life? Bridget I'm so glad you asked.

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Speaker 1: So this is actually such a good segue into the topic,

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Speaker 1: which is that I think if you were going to

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Speaker 1: check out my Instagram, you would be like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is a person who lives a phenomenal life. It's a lie.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, I do the trips, I do the travel.

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Speaker 1: The last few weeks I've been traveling on the road,

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Speaker 1: and I was in the Cats Skills right outside of Woodstock,

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Speaker 1: New York, which is in my favorite places to go.

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Speaker 1: And if you were just observing from social media, you

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Speaker 1: would be like, wow, this person barely works, and when

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Speaker 1: she does work, she's just like sitting on a stage

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Speaker 1: and it looks lovely and then she's like going to

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Speaker 1: the Cat Skills to her lovely cabin. I posted a

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Speaker 1: picture on Instagram of me in a hot tub overlooking

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Speaker 1: like rolling mountains and like very beautiful fall foliage, and

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Speaker 1: to be like, honest, I did spend a lovely week

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Speaker 1: in a lovely cabin in the cat Skills, but I

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Speaker 1: was also working in the entire time, and so like

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Speaker 1: it wasn't really that fun. My partner was there and

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Speaker 1: they were working in the entire time. The picture of

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Speaker 1: me in the hot tub, the hot tub had broken

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Speaker 1: and so we had two good nights with it. And

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Speaker 1: then when I was in it for that picture, I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, I don't think it's actually on. It's

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Speaker 1: actually kind of cold, even though I looked like very relaxed.

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Speaker 1: So no, I mean, like it's such a like curated

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Speaker 1: greatest hits real. And I'm so glad that you asked,

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Speaker 1: because I think it's important to demonstrate that, you know,

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Speaker 1: Instagram versus reality. It's not always as peche keen rosy

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Speaker 1: as it seems. I have to also put in the

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Speaker 1: fight that not too long ago you injured yourself and

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Speaker 1: you were still like just writing on with all of

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Speaker 1: these activities that you're doing, including the fide that you

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Speaker 1: are pretty much bossing it up everywhere and doing all

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Speaker 1: of these interviews. Because I'm like, when does this woman

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Speaker 1: ever stop? Does she ever stop? Because I'm sitting in

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Speaker 1: my own couch playing the sad phone game that I've

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Speaker 1: been obsessed with while watching things on repeat. I did

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Speaker 1: a lot of that as well. And it's so funny

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Speaker 1: because we did our first live taping of my podcast

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the internet in New York

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Speaker 1: during that trip, and someone was like, oh, wow, you're

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Speaker 1: you're back on your feet from breaking your ankle, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I just I used my cast

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Speaker 1: and my crutches to get on the stage and I

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Speaker 1: changed my shoes. Because again, you would think that I'm

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Speaker 1: totally healed. It's like no, in actuality, I'm still in

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Speaker 1: the cast. Yeah. I mean that is such a great

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Speaker 1: segue for what we're talking about and this story around

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Speaker 1: Facebook and particularly the damage that it does to young girls,

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Speaker 1: has like caught the national attention reesely the national attention

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Speaker 1: um and like it was a skit on SNL and

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Speaker 1: it's been funny slash sad to see these older politicians

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Speaker 1: trying to make sense of things like Instagram. Oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh. But it's just so much of what

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Speaker 1: you bring in these episodes just demonstrates the real world

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Speaker 1: damage and impact that we often separate our beliefs that

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Speaker 1: the internet doesn't have, but it does. So can you

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Speaker 1: break down this whole thing? I will try my best.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot going on, so you know, Facebook has

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Speaker 1: had a run, I mean a pretty intense few weeks.

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Speaker 1: Is a lot happening, and the thing I really want

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Speaker 1: to focus on is the harm specifically to young girls,

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Speaker 1: like teenage girls. That is not the totality of like

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Speaker 1: what's going on and like the last few weeks for

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Speaker 1: Facebook and really the last few months for Facebook. But

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Speaker 1: if I were to talk about all the different harmful

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Speaker 1: things that Facebook has done and is doing, you will

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Speaker 1: be here all day. So I really want to focus

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Speaker 1: on the impact that it has on young girls and

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Speaker 1: team girls, because you know, I just think that like

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Speaker 1: it's easy for teen girls and their experiences to be

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Speaker 1: sort of sidelined or marginalized, and so with all the

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Speaker 1: different information coming out, I really want to focus on that,

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Speaker 1: and so just generally kind of like what's happening and

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Speaker 1: sort of why this conversation is taking place. The Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal published a series of really bombshell expose is

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Speaker 1: about Facebook called The Facebook Files. Um. It's also a

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Speaker 1: podcast if that's how you prefer to get your media,

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Speaker 1: And it was all based on leaked data from documents

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Speaker 1: from the company gathered by a whistleblower named Francis Hagen

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Speaker 1: who used to work in Facebook's now defunct Civic Integrity Team,

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Speaker 1: And that was a team that was really tasked with

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Speaker 1: combatant things like misinformation and making sure that misinformation and

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Speaker 1: disinformation did not like derail elections, and so it's not

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Speaker 1: surprising to me that they dismantled that team. And it's

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Speaker 1: a nine part series and it pretty much chronicles Facebook's

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Speaker 1: most harmful and trouble link practices and behavior. From this

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Speaker 1: expose a we found out things that like the fact

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Speaker 1: that high profile celebrity Facebook users are pretty much exempt

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Speaker 1: from Facebook's moderation rules, and that Facebook is aware that

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Speaker 1: their platform is used to quote promote human trafficking and

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Speaker 1: domestic servitude, and so I would recommend that anybody either

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Speaker 1: read the entire series or listen to the podcast because

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Speaker 1: there's so much there. It's like every new draft, I'm

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Speaker 1: like wow, wow, wow. And I'm somebody who studies and

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Speaker 1: works on Facebook and the harm that they that they perpetuate. Right,

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Speaker 1: it did seem to be like oh wait and what

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Speaker 1: and what now? And it's interesting to me because I

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Speaker 1: think we've talked about on the show, but just in

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Speaker 1: society in general, it's interesting to me when we make

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Speaker 1: these jokes, but why are we accepting this as the reality.

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Speaker 1: But one is, you know, face book is this place

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Speaker 1: where it is harmful and you're gonna get like your

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Speaker 1: weird uncle giving you some strange conspiracy theory. We're just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's cool, that's what Facebook is. The powers that be

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Speaker 1: were so like, yeah, you know, it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 1: because like you said that, these issues that are impacting

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Speaker 1: teen girls in this case are just seen as sort

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Speaker 1: of frivolous or like they're being emotional, like it's just

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Speaker 1: social media, what's the big deal? Right? Yeah, But apparently

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Speaker 1: it is a big deal and it has been making

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Speaker 1: an impact. And Facebook did this, they knew it, and

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Speaker 1: they kept going on with their platform and they tried

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Speaker 1: to hide it. But now that it's come out, like

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Speaker 1: heavy sigh every side. So can you talk about the

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Speaker 1: scope of the issue here, Yes, So, as you said,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like something to know is that even though

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Speaker 1: we're all talking about it and it's in the news,

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Speaker 1: a lot of this information is really not new except

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Speaker 1: that we've known from prior research or um just from

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Speaker 1: like being a casual user of the platform. If you're

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Speaker 1: a casual user of Facebook, even you probably might have suspected, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: Facebook might be making money off of causing harm, and

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Speaker 1: so this is really not surprising. But exactly as you

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Speaker 1: put it, I think why this is news right now

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Speaker 1: is that we're getting an insight into how much Facebook

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Speaker 1: already knew about the harm that their platform causes in

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Speaker 1: our society and how much they're trying to sort of

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Speaker 1: downplay it. And so another reason why we know that

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Speaker 1: this is not a new issue is that there have

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Speaker 1: been Facebook listle blowers in the past. So Fiesang, she's

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Speaker 1: a former Facebook data scientist who uncovered abusive political manipulation

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Speaker 1: using fake engagement. UM she found a series of multiple

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Speaker 1: blatant attempts by foreign national governments to abuse the platform

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Speaker 1: on vast scales to mislead their own citizen read which

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Speaker 1: calls international news on multiple occasions. That starts from her report.

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Speaker 1: The summary of that is basically the light you know,

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Speaker 1: accounts belonging to government leaders, we're using fake accounts to

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Speaker 1: engage with their content to make it look like it's

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Speaker 1: more popular than it is. So if I if I'm

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Speaker 1: a government leader and I put out like we have

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Speaker 1: plans to do this, and then I have a bunch

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Speaker 1: of fake accounts who were like, yes, we love this plan,

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Speaker 1: we love this plan, we love this plan. It's like

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Speaker 1: building fake agreement for your policies. And so essentially that's

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Speaker 1: what soap easying uncovered. And you know, Facebook has been

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Speaker 1: allowing and profiting all of these harmful practices forever. So

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Speaker 1: this is really not new. And I always like to

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Speaker 1: remind people that Facebook started because Mark Zuckerberg, when he

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Speaker 1: was in college, created a website called face Smash, which

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Speaker 1: basically was like like a way to rank the attractiveness

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Speaker 1: of his female co students, right, and so misogyny and

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Speaker 1: attacks on women and harm against women. This is like

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Speaker 1: not a mistake. It is baked into these platforms like

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Speaker 1: Facebook from the very beginning. Zuckerberg will tell you like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's not true, that's not true. Like I happened to

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Speaker 1: build a website called facemash that was shut down, and

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Speaker 1: then a few months later created a website that was

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Speaker 1: pretty much the same thing called Facebook. Those are unrelated. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: that's not true, but that's what he would tell you. Um,

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, the fact that that websites and platforms

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Speaker 1: like Facebook are harmful to young women should not be

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Speaker 1: a surprise because in fact, they were created on that harm.

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Speaker 1: Like that is a big part of why they exist

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Speaker 1: in the first place. And reading this this expose, it

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Speaker 1: really gets into the harm that Facebook has done in

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Speaker 1: terms of team girls and young women. So trigger warning. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know this talks about eating disorders, suicide, depression, and

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Speaker 1: so that's something that is tough for you to hear about. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of what is going on. And you know,

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Speaker 1: this is really something that is sort of personal to

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Speaker 1: me because you know, I love the Internet. I love

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Speaker 1: being online and I always have and when I first

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Speaker 1: got on the Internet. Like I'm old, so this was

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Speaker 1: the late nineties. I had so many different kinds of experiences.

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Speaker 1: Some of them were negative, you know, I was definitely

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Speaker 1: in chat rooms doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing

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Speaker 1: when I was young, But some of them were also

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Speaker 1: incredibly like liberating and self affirming, Like if not for

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Speaker 1: having the Internet in my in my bedroom and my

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Speaker 1: like small Virginia town, I wouldn't have known that I

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Speaker 1: was like that I'm queer, I wouldn't have known, like

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I would be doing what I'm

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Speaker 1: doing today, or like even living the life that I

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Speaker 1: am living today, like that, like the Internet is what

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Speaker 1: allowed me to see myself and fully become myself as

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Speaker 1: an adult. And I keep thinking like this was and

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Speaker 1: so there they're the ecosystem did not exist to have

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Speaker 1: billionaires making money profiting off of my negative experiences and

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Speaker 1: negative feelings. And I don't think I would have been

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Speaker 1: able to use the Internet as this tool of self

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Speaker 1: discovery and self affirmation had that been the case. And

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Speaker 1: I really do think that like the younger generation, they

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Speaker 1: deserve to have an allline experience is not a mark

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Speaker 1: rket place for their pain for their negative feelings, and

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Speaker 1: it does not incentivize them to to be the worst

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Speaker 1: versions of themselves. And I'm really lucky that I came

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Speaker 1: of age when I did, when when there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: marketplace for my pain as a young girl. But today's generation,

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Speaker 1: as these leaks really really demonstrate, is really not so lucky.

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Speaker 1: I know we've talked before about things like spawn Con

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Speaker 1: and how these big celebrities, usually women in this case,

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Speaker 1: will you know, try to sell these items that are

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Speaker 1: all about being thin usually and what I'm thinking of

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Speaker 1: and if I had been young and I had seen that,

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Speaker 1: and it's like all these challenges people have about being

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Speaker 1: super thin like that, I know for a fact that

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Speaker 1: would have impacted me. That would have been something that

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Speaker 1: I would have thought, Okay, this is normal. I need

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Speaker 1: to try to do that, I need to look a

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Speaker 1: certain way. And those messages were already strong without I

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Speaker 1: just know for certain that it would And I am

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Speaker 1: someone who I the internet is. I love the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I think it's beautiful place for a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: And I know when this Facebook outage happened, people were like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, on one hand, celebrating, but we should also remember,

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Speaker 1: like you know, marginalized people who connect that way, and

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Speaker 1: also businesses that run that way, all these things. But

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Speaker 1: it just has become so for me, like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to feel bad about myself if I engage in this.

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Speaker 1: It's such a weird dichotomy to me because there's this

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Speaker 1: one group of you see things that I really wish

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Speaker 1: I had seen as a kid. Like, so we're talking

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Speaker 1: about people being able to spind themselves and not realizing

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Speaker 1: maybe there is a reason why you are this way.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that doesn't make sense that you're home, but there's

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Speaker 1: a com unity out there that can see you, that

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Speaker 1: knows you and and feels what you feel. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you have this other aspect of this untruth.

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Speaker 1: But like you're talking about this fake persona of happiness

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Speaker 1: that doesn't truly exist, and therefore if you haven't reached that,

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Speaker 1: or if you don't try to reach that, then you

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Speaker 1: have failed. So these two like vast differences is such

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Speaker 1: a heartbreak to me because I'm like, yes, this is good,

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Speaker 1: but this is not good. So where do we fall

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Speaker 1: on this line? Because I'm not gonna lie. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: until after that I saw all the notifications that all

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Speaker 1: these things were down that I realized it was even down.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, is that what happened? Okay, well

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Speaker 1: I just assumed me being me, my technology wasn't up

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Speaker 1: and going. So I moved on to whatever the next

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Speaker 1: thing was. But this conversation that we have when we

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Speaker 1: see how much of an influence and that is the influence.

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Speaker 1: There's no real middle ground, especially when we talk about

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Speaker 1: the younger generations about they're going to be influenced, whether

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Speaker 1: it's the positive side that they're on or the negative

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Speaker 1: side that they're on. They're on one of them. And

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Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine what that feels like today. And I'm

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Speaker 1: insecure as hell as an adult, so coming as an

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Speaker 1: attain trying to really figure out who they are and

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Speaker 1: and feeling like maybe their their home life isn't what

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Speaker 1: they want or what they need or is not healthy,

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Speaker 1: and then having to go to the spot to the

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Speaker 1: space and you don't know what's safe anymore. And I

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Speaker 1: think about that with my nieces and nephew that I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this is what they're growing up with.

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Speaker 1: And I see that level of like how do we

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Speaker 1: help them, but at the same time not try to

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Speaker 1: pull them away from the world, make them naive and

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Speaker 1: not be a part of the world. Such a weird thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just articulated such a tension that I

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Speaker 1: feel as someone who loves social media uses social media,

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Speaker 1: but it's really clearer about these downfalls and these negative

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Speaker 1: aspects of it. It can be used to find community,

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Speaker 1: feel less alone, you know, build movements, but it can

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Speaker 1: also be used in these incredibly damaging and negative ways.

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Speaker 1: And I think you really put it so well, Sam,

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Speaker 1: this idea of like, you know, we know from from

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Speaker 1: this leak and from the Facebook, you know, Facebook's own

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Speaker 1: words and their own data, that platforms, their algorithms really

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Speaker 1: do incentivize, you know, the negative, and so you see

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Speaker 1: more content that is polarizing or that makes you angry

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Speaker 1: or that is insidiary rather than content that is like

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Speaker 1: positive or affirming or that kind of thing. Like algorithms

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Speaker 1: prioritize the bad. And I think that young people can

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Speaker 1: have all different kinds of experiences online, some of them good,

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Speaker 1: some of them bad. But there it's a problem when

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Speaker 1: platforms incentivize the bad, right when they traffic in the bad,

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Speaker 1: when they promote and amplified the bad. So it's not

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Speaker 1: just like a neutral experience where whoever is using the

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Speaker 1: platform can decide if they want to gravitate toward experiences

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Speaker 1: online that are going to be affirming and good and

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Speaker 1: you know all of that stuff or bad, extreme and

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Speaker 1: insidiary and polarizing when you have an algorithm that is

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Speaker 1: prioritizing one over the other, which we know that they are,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's it's in putting together the research

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Speaker 1: for this episode. You know, I'm an adult, right, I

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Speaker 1: am a fully grown person, and I struggle with insecurity.

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Speaker 1: I struggle with, you know, self image. I struggle with

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Speaker 1: comparing myself to my peers. I struggle with all of

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Speaker 1: that stuff. And I'm a fairly like confident, secure person

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Speaker 1: when I was younger. I am so lucky that social

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Speaker 1: media wasn't the way that it was now when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, Like any you were just saying, like, I

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Speaker 1: know that that would have really been hard for me.

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Speaker 1: I know that I would have struggled. I know that

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Speaker 1: that that it just would have been a bad time.

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Speaker 1: It would not the internet would not have been a

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Speaker 1: place of self discovery. It would have been a place

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Speaker 1: where I went to think about all the ways that

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Speaker 1: I didn't measure up. And it makes me so sad

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Speaker 1: that that is exactly the experience that we are allowing

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Speaker 1: for young people today, Like that is just like their

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Speaker 1: experience of being online is one of you know, feeling

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Speaker 1: bad about themselves and I hate that. I hate that

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Speaker 1: for them. They deserve they deserve so much better, right,

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Speaker 1: And you know, as a person who again we've talked

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Speaker 1: about this is like being on the inside to see

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Speaker 1: what that damage can do. Being a part of a

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Speaker 1: workforce that worked with at risk teams trying to hold

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Speaker 1: people accountable, I can't imagine. So we have some of

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Speaker 1: these leaked documents that I know, and I've seen a

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Speaker 1: few tweets and articles talking about how these women specifically

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Speaker 1: have felt threatened and are feeling at this point even

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Speaker 1: now like oh this is dangerous. I've come to dangerous

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Speaker 1: grounds that with this happening internally, people have had to

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Speaker 1: know how has this allowed to happen? What are they

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Speaker 1: saying inside of this company that they're like whatever, Like

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Speaker 1: how are they even trying to frame this? Yes, so

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Speaker 1: let's get into that. So one thing to note is

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Speaker 1: that a lot of this pertains to Instagram, but it's

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Speaker 1: important to note that Facebook owns Instagram. They take a

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Speaker 1: lot of steps to try to conceal that fact, but

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Speaker 1: they're the same company. And so here's some of the

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Speaker 1: findings from the Wall Street Journal expose a Since at

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Speaker 1: least twenty nineteen, Facebook has been studying the impact of

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Speaker 1: its platform on younger users. Their research has repeatedly found

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Speaker 1: that it is harmful to a large portion, especially teen girls.

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Speaker 1: Here's a direct quote from a slide from an internal

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Speaker 1: Facebook presentation in twenty nineteen. We make body image issues

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Speaker 1: worse for one in three teen girls. In another presentation,

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Speaker 1: they internally said of teen girls said that when they

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Speaker 1: felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse.

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Speaker 1: Another side said teens blame Instagram for increases in the

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Speaker 1: rate of anxiety and depression. They feel the reaction was

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Speaker 1: unprompted and consistent across all groups. And another leak study

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Speaker 1: found that seventeen percent of teen girls say they're eating

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Speaker 1: disorders got worse after using Instagram. And you know, so

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Speaker 1: this is from their own internal documents and the stuff

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Speaker 1: that they knew that they talked about with each other.

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Speaker 1: Facebook also internally is aware of the link between their

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Speaker 1: platform and things like the pression and suicide according to

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Speaker 1: their internal studies of users who reported suicidal thoughts in

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Speaker 1: the UK and six percent in the US traced them

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Speaker 1: back to Instagram. Another trans Atlantic study found that more

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Speaker 1: than Instagram users who reported feeling unattractive said that they

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Speaker 1: began feeling that way on Instagram, and about a quarter

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00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: of the teenagers who reported feeling not good enough said

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Speaker 1: it started on Instagram. And again, this is not really

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Speaker 1: like news news, because studies have been showing that Instagram

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Speaker 1: is like the most negative platform for teams for a while.

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Speaker 1: In twenties seventeen, a studied by Young Minds and the

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Speaker 1: Royal Society for Public Health showed that Instagram had the

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Speaker 1: most negative impact on young people's mental health of all

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Speaker 1: the social media networks. And you know, if you're thinking

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Speaker 1: something like, oh, well, maybe this is just a social

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Speaker 1: media problem, maybe all social media platforms are bad. You know, yes,

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Speaker 1: all social media platforms have their negative aspects, but these

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Speaker 1: findings were specific to Instagram. And so that's really because

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Speaker 1: Instagram is one of the only platforms that really sort

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Speaker 1: of encourages what Facebook calls quote social comparison. And so

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Speaker 1: it's this thing where it's like you are feeling pressure

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Speaker 1: to compare your life to someone else, And so think

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Speaker 1: about a platform like TikTok, right, Like that's a platform

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Speaker 1: that is really kind of performance based, right, it does

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Speaker 1: not invite comparison the way that Instagram does. And so again,

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Speaker 1: like I have definitely had times where I wake up

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Speaker 1: and I scroll Instagram and I see all my peers

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Speaker 1: and they're seemingly perfect lives and I put my phone

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Speaker 1: down and I feel like crap. You know, even as

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Speaker 1: an adult, it's so easy to succumb to this pressure

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Speaker 1: that you have to be perfect and have to show

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Speaker 1: your best moments. But I think especially for young people

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Speaker 1: who are so impressionable, you know, it can really morph

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Speaker 1: into things like depression, self esteem, eating issues, food issues,

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Speaker 1: And we should not just be accepting that, Like that

431
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: should that just be like the cost of those young

432
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: people being on social media. It should be imperative to

433
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: create a social media experience that does not profit off

434
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: of these terrible harms. Our children are kids, right, And

435
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. It makes me want to scream, like,

436
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: what's the point of doing all this research? Obviously they

437
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: wanted to know, but they haven't really fixed anything. They

438
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: haven't helped anything. As in fact, when we talk about

439
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: the spawn con, the whole idea is like they bring

440
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: on people, they sponsored, people who make it look easy,

441
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: and it takes incredibly hard to tell what's real and

442
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: what's not because half the things is like this is

443
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: definitely add but is it? Because they push it forward

444
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: and say, this is the ideal situation. These people's lives

445
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: is what you should seek, and therefore we're going to

446
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: give you some help by you can allowing you to

447
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: buy these things to meet that standard. It's such a

448
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: weird thing because they pushed this is a part of

449
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: their narrative. Oh absolutely, Like the expose, they showed these

450
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: internal like slack conversations and um whatever the Facebook internal

451
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: Slack version of slack as I can't remember what it is.

452
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: But you have people at Facebook talking about these these

453
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: studies and these findings being like, oh, like, isn't that

454
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: the fun of Instagram? You know, comparing yourself to other

455
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: people and seeing how like the one percent of like

456
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: really hot people live. Like you know, I thought that

457
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: was like the whole point and the way that they

458
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 1: talk so callously about it, like oh yeah, isn't that

459
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: what people want from our platform too, constantly be comparing

460
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: themselves to unattainable error, brushed, filtered versions of the reality

461
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: that could not possibly exist, you know, and just like

462
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: they're their inability to see how harmful that would be.

463
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: You know. I remember when I first realized how often

464
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: people are using filters and face tune and things like

465
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: that on their pictures, because I would see these women

466
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: where it's like, how is it possible to have a

467
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: waste that thin and a butt that nice? Like how

468
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: are you? How are you standing up and walking around

469
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: without falling over? It doesn't make sense? And I was like, oh,

470
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: it does. It's not real, actually look that way. And

471
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: let's not talk about the fact that most of these

472
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: people are white women are white community, and so let's

473
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: talk about being a person of color, really being ashamed

474
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 1: of being a person of color, and realizing, oh, it's

475
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: still the standard to be white, to be small, to

476
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: be you know, young, this is the standard that we

477
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: should be attaining. To thank you one more time of

478
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: something that I can't change and be absolutely isn't it

479
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: interesting that when you use what platforms called beauty filter

480
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: on a non white face, the beauty filter pretty much

481
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: translates to like, oh, you made your lips and nose thinner,

482
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: basically made you look white, and it's like, oh, well,

483
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: so what are you trying to say? Like what is

484
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: really what are you trying to say? And I don't know.

485
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm I have a feeling you and I are in

486
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: the same boat because oftentimes these filters are like nothing changed.

487
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: I don't understand what's happening. You can't lighten my dark

488
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: brown eyes to be blue on what is this and

489
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: literally being confused about how they look that way? And

490
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, these are for white people, Okay,

491
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's that's kind of like not to

492
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 1: go off on a tangent, but like even that concept

493
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: alone is so harmful in tech, and it's so common.

494
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: Like they just came out with a new iPhone a

495
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and there are people I don't

496
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: have it. I still have my old jankie, earlier model iPhone,

497
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: but apparently this is the first camera that can actually

498
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: take decent pictures of people with darker skin, and part

499
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: of me it's like iPhone has been ounce since what

500
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: two past and seven, and you'll finally realize that people

501
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: who are not white exist and for so long, if

502
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: you were somebody who didn't have like light skin, to

503
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: get a decent picture of yourself on an iPhone, you

504
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: had to be meticulous about your lighting and your angles,

505
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: and if you weren't, you came out like a shadow

506
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: blob monster. And it's like, Wow, finally, after all these years,

507
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: y'all have developed a technology that can just take my

508
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: photo and have it not looked wild. So I can't imagine,

509
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: and I have a feeling that if we looked at

510
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 1: the percentage of young teens of color, the numbers would

511
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: be higher for those who are completely marginal allied in

512
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: that within that community of seeing like, oh, I really

513
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: wish that I was not my ethnicity, you know, just

514
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: just being going beyond that that how uh yeah, Facebook

515
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: is racist, Like, let's just add that to the caveat

516
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: of not only are these sexes, not only are they

517
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: of fat, shame made, not only do they have all

518
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: of these things, but yeah, they are racist as well

519
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: because they have again the standard of the white man

520
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: who yeah, to me, he is the villain in this story.

521
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Marcus Zuckerberg is the villain. But also

522
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: it's it's he's the villain, but also Cheryl Sandberg, Like

523
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: there are so many villains in this story, and I

524
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: don't know how Cheryl Sandberg has not been able to

525
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: be like the public face of villainy here. But it

526
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: really is like these people are knowingly making lots and

527
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: lots of money off of the pain and harm and

528
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: sometimes the deaths of our soil. And it's just when

529
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: I intellectualize that, it's like, how is that okay? How

530
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: how is it okay that, like people are getting rich

531
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: off of harming our kids. It's for all the different

532
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: ways that we talk about, you know, protecting children and

533
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: protecting you. It's like, here is a clear way that

534
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: our kids are being harmed and not just that people

535
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: are making money off of it, and we've just internalized that,

536
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: like that's just how it is, and it's completely unacceptable

537
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: to me. Agreed. Speaking of the villains, what are they

538
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: saying publicly? Like are they have they made any promises

539
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: of change anything at all? So this is where it

540
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: gets juicy, right, So, like all the different harmful things

541
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: that they do, we kind of knew about that before.

542
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: It's new to know that how much they knew in

543
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: terms of their harm. But they also say a completely

544
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: different thing publicly than they do internally at Facebook. And

545
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: so when Facebook's founder Mark Zuckerberg testified before Congress in March,

546
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: he said, the research that we've seen is that using

547
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: social media apps to connect with other people can have

548
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: positive mental health benefits. So all of these leaks show

549
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: he knew that wasn't true. He knew all these different

550
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: ways that his platform and his product create harm, and

551
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: he it seems to me, you know, I'm no lawyer,

552
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: it seems to me that he was actively misleading both

553
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: Congress lawmakers and the public about what he knew. And

554
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: we all know, you know, Facebook as a history of

555
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: really not being honest. Again, if I were to list

556
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: all the different examples do be here all day. But

557
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: one that I have like like personal firsthand knowledge of

558
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: is remember back in like when all these different publications

559
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: were pivoting to video, Well, basically like that was based

560
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: on Facebook really deeply exaggerating the metrics of video, and

561
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: so they were like, oh, video is the thing. Video

562
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: was getting so much more attraction than any other kind

563
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: of medium. And so at the time I worked in media,

564
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: and so many of my coworkers, so many of my

565
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: colleagues all lost their jobs at media companies because of

566
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: Facebook over inflated and exaggerated the metric of video content

567
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: on their platform. And so again I'm no lawyer, but like,

568
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: that's a lot. This would not be the first time

569
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: that Facebook has misled the public and others about what's

570
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: happening at their company, saying one thing when another thing

571
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: is actually when they know another thing to actually be true.

572
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: And I remember that time in media, like Facebook made

573
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: it so difficult to like, I left media because I

574
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: just felt like media companies were capitulating to whatever Facebook said.

575
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: And so the Facebook said, it's video. If you didn't

576
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: do video content, you basically knew that you were gonna

577
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: get fired. If Facebook said, like, we were just caring

578
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: to the whims of this massive company, and it's became

579
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: so impossible to do that work. And so, you know,

580
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: an entire generation of journalists face such instability and chaos

581
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: because Facebook misrepresented their own findings. And so, according to

582
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: Hagen's legal team, Facebook executives, including Zuckerberg, misstated and omitted

583
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: key details about what was known about Facebook's and Instagram's

584
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: ability to cause harm, and her attorneys also alleged that

585
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: Facebook violated the US securities laws by lying to investors.

586
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: And again, like, I'm no lawyer, I'm no expert on

587
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: this particular part of it. But like when you say

588
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: one thing in when you're testifying to Congress, when you

589
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: know another thing to be true, that seems like a

590
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: problem to me. I don't know, I think that's lying.

591
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think so. I think you're right.

592
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: I know when it comes to like stocks and stuff,

593
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: that is really really bad and you will get arrested

594
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: and fire because yeah, you just made up in order

595
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: to pretend like you have made profit in order to

596
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: make more profit exactly. Um, It's it is really well

597
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: to me, It's like and it's one of these things

598
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: where I feel like I don't know if it's capitalism

599
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: or just like a nuance of living in a country

600
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: like America where some things are lies and some things

601
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: are are true. And I think that you kind of

602
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: accepted that, like, oh, well, of course a big business

603
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: has to like misrepresent a few things in public to

604
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: make a buck. And it's like, wait, no, stop, is

605
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: that is that really how it should be? That we

606
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: should just allow that, Like it's okay for businesses to

607
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: behave in this manner that it's literally killing kids to

608
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: make money. It's like, I feel like this whole Facebook

609
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: conversation is a good place for a hard stop of

610
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: what we will allow businesses to do without any kind

611
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: of accountability, right, And that's been a piece of this

612
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: conversation is when people talk about regulating Facebook or how

613
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: could we potentially deal with this problem, people have brought

614
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: up other industries and what they have done. Correct. Oh, absolutely, So,

615
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,760
Speaker 1: after all of this Facebook stuff was going down, Adam Missary,

616
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: the head of Instagram, who I have a lot of

617
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: few things about him, I won't get into it now,

618
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: but like, he just someone who because he runs Instagram,

619
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: I feel like tries to have a kind of quirky

620
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: public persona, and it's like, well, your platform is killing kids,

621
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: So like, I don't really care about your quirky socks.

622
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: But that's either heard her there. Basically, after all this

623
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: went down, he went on the podcast Recode and offered

624
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: a really terrible but also very telling analogy in response

625
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: to all of this. He said, we know that more

626
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: people die than otherwise would because of car accidents, but

627
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: by and large, cars create way more value in the

628
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: world than they destroy, and I think social media is similar.

629
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: So that analogy is wild for a couple of different reasons. One,

630
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: it's just like cars, that the car industry. We know

631
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: that industry is incredibly regulated by federal and state governments, right,

632
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: Like I gotta take my car in every so often

633
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: to get it inspected by the state, and they have

634
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: to tell me if it's okay. You know, your car

635
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: has to have seatbelts, this, that, the third that are

636
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: all you know, dictated by the state. And we know that,

637
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: like the auto industry had to be basically forced into

638
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: adopting safety measures that they knew would save lives. And

639
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: so I hate this analogy. But if that's the analogy

640
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: he wants to use, then it sounds like what he

641
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: is saying is like, oh, we need to be heavily

642
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: regulated so that we don't harm people the same way

643
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: that the automobile industry is. Right. It's like, Uh, what's

644
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: funny is that when he brought that up, the person

645
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: who was interviewing him was like, oh, well, you know,

646
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: the car industry is very regulated, and he was like, well,

647
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, we're open to regulation, but we can't have

648
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: too much regulation either. It's like well, what do you want.

649
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: You're just gonna be able to harm people for profits,

650
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: but no regulation whatsoever. Take my analogy, but don't really

651
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: take mine alogy. Things. Also, analogy often used in comic

652
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: books and has always turned around. So this guy clearly

653
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: doesn't know his X men all right, exactly exactly, Like

654
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: I feel like once when you make that analogy, you're

655
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: opening yourself up to so many like you know, uh

656
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: gotchas and like brickballs, was like why I even go there.

657
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: But one of one of my favorite folks in the

658
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: disinformation space, this amazing researcher from the Shortens Scene Institute

659
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: at Harvard, Dr Joan Donovan. She's like one of my heroes.

660
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: She actually has a much better analogy, which is big tobacco.

661
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: So we know the big tobacco companies, they knew internally

662
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: that their products caused cancer, yet they misled both lawmakers

663
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: and the public about it for a very long time.

664
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why we had the Master's Settlement

665
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: Agreement in which led to some accountability for the tobacco companies,

666
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 1: you know, misleading the public about the link between tobacco

667
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: and cancer. And so this book is kind of doing

668
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: the same thing, misleading law makers and the public about

669
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: the harm that they already have demonstrated that they know

670
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: their product causes. And so I think that's a really

671
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: useful analogy, because yeah, like, should a company be able

672
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: to mislead lawmakers in the public about the harm they

673
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: know their product causes to make money? If you agree

674
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: that the big tobacco company, should that have done that?

675
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,439
Speaker 1: It seems like Facebook is doing something very similar as

676
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: in fact, is doing something just as similar in that

677
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: the old school campaign for tobacco were directed towards children

678
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: and say like, look how cool you are, and wo's

679
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: It's honestly like, when I heard that comparison, it blew

680
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: my mind because it's the same thing, marketing towards young people,

681
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: marketing towards women. Like the way that Facebook and tobacco

682
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: companies have harmed these specific marginalized groups, groups that don't

683
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: always get a lot of attention or have the biggest platforms,

684
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, women, young people, It is so similar. And

685
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: I think that's something that really really gets me about

686
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: this whole thing is that, you know, Facebook, We know

687
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: now that Facebook knew how harmful their product was to

688
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: young people, and yet they continued to try to market

689
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: to young people push it to younger and younger audiences.

690
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,839
Speaker 1: I think on Spanthy months before, I talked about how

691
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: Facebook had had plans to roll out a version of

692
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: Instagram specifically for kids, knowing that their product was already

693
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: so harmful to young people, and they continued to court

694
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: younger and younger users, Like, straight up, Facebook does not

695
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: care if kids are being hurt, harmed, killed, whatever, if

696
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: it makes them more money, and internal documents showed that

697
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: they had plans to market to kids who were ten

698
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: to twelve years old. They called ten to twelve year

699
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: olds a valuable but untapped audience, and another report suggested

700
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: that Facebook should look into a way to leverage play

701
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: dates to drive growth among kids. You know, it is

702
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: so vile that they knew that their products had such

703
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: a harmful impact on this young demographic, and yet they

704
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: continue to discuss how they could spread that harm to

705
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: kids younger and younger, right, because like, you gotta be

706
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: thirteen ven Instagram account, And they were like, well, you

707
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: gotta be thirteen Instagram account, but ten to twelve year old,

708
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: we really got to figure out how to harm them too,

709
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: And they're doing it for money. They're getting rich off

710
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: of it. I swear as the skit, I've seen this

711
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: skit before about this like trying to I don't know

712
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: if it was like suits or something, but they're like,

713
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: but we haven't gotten to the toddlers yet, so how

714
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: do we market? So it's like diaper formal where was

715
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: like the key and I was like, what is happening?

716
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: Is this real life? It's an Onion article SNL skit

717
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: come to life. And I think it's also hilarious and

718
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: sad that you did. You completely talked about this whole

719
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: idea that Instagram had of trying to uh get younger

720
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: audiences essentially and younger buyers, and you talked about the

721
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: fact that y'all and when it was like, hey, bad idea.

722
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: And this was even before these reports came out, Yes,

723
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: And I mean, if they already knew their product was

724
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: hurting young people to just try to further get that

725
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,879
Speaker 1: lock on younger and younger communities, it's just I mean,

726
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: I I think it's just evil like that, Like that's

727
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: only like I think that Facebook is an evil company

728
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: and that they are making money by spreading harm to

729
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: younger and younger folks and it's just vile, But I

730
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: think it's also kind of telling them because it kind

731
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: of leads me to believe that Facebook might not be

732
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: as powerful as we maybe once thought. You know, young

733
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: people are not really into Facebook. They use Instagram a

734
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: lot more, but like a regular Facebook, Facebook is where

735
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: you go to like see your weird old aunt's like

736
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: nonsensical Facebook posts or your dad's if you're if you're me,

737
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: my dad's Facebook post. It just says the word test

738
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: like it's like not where you're going to have cool experiences.

739
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: And the fact that they filled the need to lock

740
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: in and market to younger and younger audiences kind of

741
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: makes me think that like, maybe they're not as as

742
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: big as we think they are. They don't have as

743
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: much of a hold on certain demographics as they might

744
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: need to write into. Like social media companies that are

745
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: doing well don't need to aggressively find all of these

746
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: little scams to lock in younger and younger users. And

747
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: we know something about Facebook is that they're m o

748
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: is kind of I don't want to say stealing, but

749
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 1: like adopting things from other platforms that are more successful

750
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: with younger users. And so when Instagram rolled out stories

751
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: like disappearing stories. That was essentially, you know, them copying Snapchat,

752
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: which was very popular with young people. When they started

753
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: doing reels, that was essentially them copying TikTok, which we

754
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: know is very very popular with young people. And so

755
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: the fact that they're doing all of these little things

756
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: to lock in younger and younger users might actually mean

757
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: that their business model is suffering because they're not getting

758
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,919
Speaker 1: new user base. They would need to keep their their

759
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: platforms relevant, and that like if they have an older

760
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: and aging user base, you know that models only sustained

761
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: for so long. And it also means that maybe they're

762
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: kind of against the ropes and we might actually get

763
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: somewhere in terms of creating accountability for the kind of

764
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: harm that we know they are spreading and mitigating further harm,

765
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: which I hope is accurate. I hope that like the

766
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 1: fact that they're doing these like increasingly more desperate ways

767
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: to court increasingly younger audiences means that they're not actually

768
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: as powerful of a text bohemus as we might have thought. Recently,

769
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: we have seen you know, these bombshell accounts and this

770
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: whistleblower in Congress testifying, and it seems like this is

771
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 1: an issue that has touched people across all lines, and

772
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: people can relate to and and I care about um

773
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: want to do something about. Is that a correct? Oh? Absolutely?

774
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: And that's actually one of the things that kind of

775
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: excites me and gives me a lot of hope is

776
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 1: that there is actually rare bipartisan support for the idea

777
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: that something needs to be done about Facebook. Democrats and

778
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: Republicans are actually very much united with the idea of

779
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,959
Speaker 1: regulating Facebook. After this Wall Street Journal expose came out

780
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill, Hagen testified at a hearing of the

781
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, Product Safety,

782
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: and Data Security. Uh, that's nowtful And at this hearing,

783
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 1: after she testified, her testimony was amazing, but Republican Senator

784
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: Jerry Moran of Kansas told the subcommittee chair, Richard Blumenthal,

785
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: a Democrats from Connecticut, that they should put aside their

786
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: partisan differences to tackle this common goal of reigning and Facebook.

787
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: And they agreed. They agreed that they had more similarities

788
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: than differences on the issue, that the differences they did

789
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: have were very, very minor. And so Blumenthal said this

790
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: at the testimony. If you closed your eyes, you wouldn't

791
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: know if it was a Republican or a Democrat. Every

792
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: part of the country has the harms that are inflicted

793
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: by Facebook and Instagram, and I think it is really

794
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: heartening to see an issue where everybody's on the same side.

795
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you're Republican or Democrat. Everybody can

796
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: agree that our kids should not there should not be

797
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: a marketplace for the pain and the harm of our children,

798
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: and then it needs to stop. And honestly, I think

799
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: they're exactly right. We should reject this idea that it's

800
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: just okay for companies to be making profit off of

801
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: hurting our kids. Our kids deserve better. Um, I don't

802
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: really care what happens to the finances of Mark Zuckerberg

803
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: or an Adam Massari or Cheryl Sandberg if it means

804
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: creating a safer ecosystem for our children, and I think

805
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: they deserve it. I mean, let's be honest, if they

806
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: stop making money today, they'd be fine. They'll be fine.

807
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: They'll be fine, Like they have enough money, they'll be fine.

808
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, I find it interesting that this is that conversation,

809
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: that this is the one thing that's tied everyone together,

810
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: because yeah, I think if you go to either side

811
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,919
Speaker 1: when it comes to the controversial or even the conspiracy

812
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: theory level, the one thing you can agree upon is

813
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: that the other believes that the other is out to

814
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: get them and giving misinformation because of these social media's.

815
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is so true, and it's actually

816
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: like in working in like tech accountability. That's the thing

817
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: that I always find kind of funny is that like

818
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: hardcore conservatives believe they are being censored on Facebook, super

819
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: progressive lefty folks believe they're being censored on Facebook. If

820
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: you've never seen that meme where it's a black hand

821
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: and a white hand, like like shaking hands and they

822
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 1: both agree, it's like everybody kind of agrees they don't

823
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: like what's going down on a faceboo. It doesn't matter

824
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: what side you're on, what you know, we all agree

825
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: we don't like what's happening on the Facebook. So it

826
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: feels good to be united against a clear common enemy.

827
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Speaking of tech accountability, I mean, we wouldn't know about

828
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: a lot of this, even though that we had kind

829
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: of known, but we wouldn't have had like the hard

830
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: data and facts. If this whistleblower hadn't come out and

831
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 1: taken that risk and determined for herself, like we the

832
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: people need to know this. Yeah. So like the importance

833
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: of whistleblowers for this whole conversation. Um, and I know

834
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,439
Speaker 1: that's something that you have talked about before. Oh yeah,

835
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm so glad that you brought that up.

836
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: I so obviously this is like bombshell news, and I'm

837
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: so glad that folks are discussing it. But it is

838
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: so important to not lose sight of the fact that

839
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: whistleblowers are really especially in tech, are really important. On

840
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: my podcast, there are No Girls on the Internet, we

841
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: have a series highlighting women of color whistleblowers in tech,

842
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 1: and it does not surprise me that so many whistleblowers

843
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: are women and women of color, and I think that

844
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: it is so important to some court them and to

845
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: highlight their stories. Um. One of my favorite tech whistle

846
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: blowers is one of them. Again, one of my like heroes,

847
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: e Foma Uzoma. She blew the whistle on gender and

848
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: racial discrimination at the company Pinterest and just actually passed

849
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: groundbreaking legislation in California to free the victims of racial

850
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: and gender discrimination at tech companies from non disclosure acts.

851
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: So if you signed an n d A but you

852
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: were the victim of discrimination you previously it could be

853
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: sued if you talked about that experience. But because of

854
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: this legislation, the Silent No More Act, she is actually

855
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: freed victims of discrimination up to talk about their experiences.

856
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: And so, you know, I would encourage everybody to. You know,

857
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: you can listen to the series that we have on whistleblowers,

858
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: but also in addition to listening to Frances Higgen's testimony,

859
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: make sure that you read about Sophie zaang story. You know,

860
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: I mentioned Sophie Zaying earlier. She was a former Facebook employee.

861
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 1: She's a trans woman of color who was a previous

862
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: Facebook whistle blower, and she deserves so much praise for

863
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 1: the work of identifying harm that Facebook was doing when

864
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: she worked there, working internally to try to mitigate it,

865
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: and when that did not work, speaking up about it

866
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: after she left. And you know, whistle blowing is scary,

867
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: thankless dangerous work, and it's often the work of women,

868
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 1: and I think that it's work that is it becomes

869
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: even more dangerous the more marginalized you are. So if

870
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: you're a woman, it's more it's more dangerous to do

871
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: to be a whistle blower as a woman than as

872
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: a man. It is more dangerous to be whistle blower

873
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: as a woman of color than as a white woman.

874
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 1: And it's more dangerous to be a whistle blower as

875
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: a trans woman than assist woman. Right, And so whistle

876
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: blowing is not this like gender neutral, race neutral, identity

877
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: neutral thing. It really does take into account our identities.

878
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: And so you know, I've already seen these attacks on

879
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: Hagen that are like, oh, she must just be a

880
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: disgruntled employee, or she doesn't really know what she's talking about.

881
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: Like in their response, a Facebook comms person was like, oh, well,

882
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: you know she never had any direct reports, she didn't

883
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: really worked on this, or that, you know, really trying

884
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: to minimize her experiences and her voice, or saying that

885
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: she's just doing it for publicity or for money. And

886
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: it's like people do not do the scary, thankless danger

887
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: as the work of whistle blowing because they want to

888
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: get a check, right, Like, it is incredibly destabilizing to

889
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: your entire life and often like your family life to

890
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: blow the whistle like this, and so I think it's

891
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,760
Speaker 1: important that we remember that there are women and women

892
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: of color who risk so much and take on such

893
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: a huge personal cost to get us this information, and

894
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 1: I think we owe it to them to do something

895
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: about it once they do. And the story just what

896
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: you were saying alone reminds me of the Google employee

897
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,959
Speaker 1: you had brought to us as well in that same

898
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 1: like they just want to discredit instead of acknowledge the problems,

899
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,720
Speaker 1: and so many are used to discrediting women and women

900
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: of color and women who are moginal lies in the

901
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community, Like it's just such ah almost by the

902
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: playbook when it comes to the misogynist, racist ideals of

903
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 1: the US. The Unfortunately, it's still kind of works. Yes,

904
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 1: I mean exactly like the situation that Google was tim nant,

905
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: Jabru like she, I think that it's for a lot

906
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: of women and women of color were already seen as

907
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: margin We're already marginalized, We're already seen as like perpetual outsiders.

908
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: And so when we speak up, when we practice public

909
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: courage and public morality and say like this bad thing

910
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: is happening and it's not great, we should it shouldn't

911
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 1: be happening. It's so easy for people to discredit us,

912
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: the crap on us, to say like, oh, they don't

913
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: know what we're talking about, like, and I think, like

914
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: it is so important that in the face of that,

915
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: that we support women who speak up. It's because, you know,

916
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: it's just there's already a an attitude waiting and ready

917
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: and willing to suppress their voices. Absolutely, and I thank

918
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: you so much for bringing their names to our attention

919
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: and for bringing this topic to our attention. And do

920
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: you want to Are there any resources you want to

921
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: shout out? And also where can the good listeners find you?

922
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 1: One thing I want to note is there are some

923
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: organizations and initiatives that you can follow if you're interested

924
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: in knowing more. So I can always check out my

925
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: work at Ultra Violet um we are a gender justice

926
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: organization of feminist organization that is really working to keep

927
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: gender at the forefront of tech harms. You can go

928
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: to we are ultraviolet dot org to find out more.

929
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: And the Cairos Foundation is actually putting together a campaign

930
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: asking folks to log out Facebook this November. And so

931
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: if you're if you're someone who's thinking like, gee, I

932
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 1: don't like what I'm hearing about Facebook, and I want

933
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: to do whatever I can to divest from Facebook a

934
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: little bit more. Check out Cairos campaign this November about

935
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: how you can do that. And Yeah, if you want

936
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,720
Speaker 1: to hear more conversations about women whistleblowers and this women

937
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: in tech who are trying to speak up and trying

938
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,919
Speaker 1: to practice moral courage um and trying to act as

939
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: the conscious of tech platforms in the tech industry, you

940
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: can check out my podcast. There are no girls on

941
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: the Internet where we are having conversations about what it

942
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: means to practice that kind of public courage and public

943
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 1: bravery in tech. So we would love to have you. Yes, definitely,

944
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 1: definitely go check it out. It's amazing. You can find

945
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: Bridget online. Also, it always feels so weird when you're like,

946
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: does social media platform problems? But find me on there

947
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: if you pretty much, every like every like tech accountability

948
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: organization right now and activists and organizing right now is

949
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: going through the same thing of like, well, I hate Facebook,

950
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: but I'm on Facebook. What do I do? But if

951
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: you want to follow me, you can follow me on

952
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bridget Marie in d C and on Twitter

953
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: at Bridget Murray and thank you so much for being here.

954
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. As always, listeners, if you would

955
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: like to contact us, you can our emails, Stuff you

956
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: Need Your Mom and Stuff at I Hurt Me You

957
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram at Stuff

958
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You or on Twitter at Mom Stuff Podcast.

959
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: Thanks It's always to our super producer Christina, Thank you,

960
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told

961
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: You This production by High Radio. For more podcast on

962
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 1: my heart radio is the Heart Radio, ap Apple podcast,

963
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.