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Speaker 1: Hey, what up. Welcome in.

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Speaker 2: I'm dog Gottlieb. This is all ball. Look, I can

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Speaker 2: dispense with the pleasant trees. Let's just get to some

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Speaker 2: of the stuff we've seen in college basketball. A couple

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Speaker 2: of things is in this past week we've seen Arkansas

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Speaker 2: takedown Duke and Kansas beat Yukon. The Kansas Yukon gap

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Speaker 2: was a great basketball game if possible, and I know

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Speaker 2: Yukon fans will forever say, you know, we got screwed

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Speaker 2: in the officiating, and that happens when you're in the fog.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it was I don't think the officiating

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Speaker 2: was terrible. Hunter Dickinson is a hard guy to officiate.

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Speaker 2: He's incredibly physical and he does complain a lot, but

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Speaker 2: he is a very talented player. And big guys in

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Speaker 2: many ways are at a disadvantage in terms of how

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Speaker 2: the game is officiated these days, especially guys a scoring

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Speaker 2: a low post, because you can be so physical the

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Speaker 2: low post, and yet you can't be physical out on

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Speaker 2: the court or or sometimes in screening situations. So the

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Speaker 2: first thing is that those are two places, and I

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Speaker 2: know there's others. I watched the Xavier Houston game Xavier's

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Speaker 2: always an incredible place that I know.

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Speaker 1: It's like chicken or the egg. But I'll give you

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Speaker 1: an example i've done. I'm doing consulting work with Oklahoma

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Speaker 1: State this year.

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Speaker 2: And granted Oklahoma State has not had the recent success

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Speaker 2: of Arkansas, definitely not had the success of Kansas, but

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Speaker 2: a one proud fan base. You know, you end up

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Speaker 2: having six seven thousand people for creating a ranked team

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Speaker 2: to come in and play, and the difference is or

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Speaker 2: maybe you go to any of these games. It's really

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Speaker 2: weird how fans are in most places, not all places,

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Speaker 2: the basketball places it's not this way, but in most

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Speaker 2: places it's show me.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Look, I grant you that our Arkansas getting Duke on

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Speaker 2: their home floors is pretty special night.

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Speaker 1: But like Arkansas, I have been struggling.

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Speaker 2: You know, they were like a five hundred team, and

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Speaker 2: so to have your biggest crowd ever in Fayetteville, granted

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Speaker 2: it's for Duke. In many ways, that's the difference in

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Speaker 2: winning and losing games. And it's like, well, if you'd

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Speaker 2: win more, we'd show up more. But if you show

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Speaker 2: up more, we'd win more. And I think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of there's there's just truth to that that are undeniable.

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Speaker 1: But let's let's dig in on a little bit of

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Speaker 1: the meat.

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Speaker 2: What's wrong with Duke is Duke turn around and lost

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Speaker 2: to Georgia Tech two straight roadmans. First, there's home and

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Speaker 2: road in college basketball, and I love the John shire

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Speaker 2: is unlike his predecessor Mike Rychevsky, But some of it

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Speaker 2: is a you know, it's at a conference scheduling, right,

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Speaker 2: that's the acc SEC showdown, So they had to go

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Speaker 2: on the road. But you know how often like it's

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Speaker 2: a celebration for all that Duke has accomplished when they

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Speaker 2: go on the road and they're the biggest game that

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Speaker 2: team has been in. Arkansas is a proud program, the

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Speaker 2: biggest program you could ever see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a couple of things. I think.

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Speaker 2: One probably still playing too many guys and a lot

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Speaker 2: of coaches I speak with are in that same boat

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Speaker 2: where you know, part of this, I'm sure is the

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Speaker 2: portal I'm not gonna lesten I'm being denial of how

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Speaker 2: things work in that you just can't lose everybody every year,

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Speaker 2: and you make some promises and I'm sure there's some

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Speaker 2: nil directed at a bunch of different players, and you're like, look,

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Speaker 2: we allocated resources to this player. We have to at

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Speaker 2: least see what he can do. And so it causes you.

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Speaker 2: This is a lot like in AAU basketball where you

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Speaker 2: got payers and you got players, you know, and you're like, well,

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Speaker 2: this kid came to practice that week and this kid's dad,

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Speaker 2: you know, face to the team ban and this.

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Speaker 1: You know. Now it's obviously different, but you know.

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Speaker 2: I when you're around these programs enough, there is at

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Speaker 2: least a very small portion a portion of hey, who

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Speaker 2: do we take a look at and in what situations?

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Speaker 1: At least a portion of it is some of the

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Speaker 1: nil stuff, the transfer portal stuff.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to lose everybody every year, and we

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Speaker 2: definitely don't want to lose half of our team checking

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Speaker 2: out because we're only playing seven guys or six.

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Speaker 1: Guys to start the season. That said, there's other reasons.

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Speaker 2: One is you don't really know what you have, and

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Speaker 2: whatever you think you have, you don't know what you

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Speaker 2: have until you play them in front of eighteen thousand people,

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Speaker 2: because people react differently in front of eighteen thousand people

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Speaker 2: than they do and it's an empty practice gym and

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Speaker 2: you're going up against the team, you know, and the

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Speaker 2: ball screen coverage that you're very well aware of.

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Speaker 1: How to manipulate.

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Speaker 2: But I think that part of the do thing is

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Speaker 2: you play too many guys. The dude thing is you

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Speaker 2: have some really young players. I mean even even you

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Speaker 2: know Proctor has come back for year two, like Philipowski's

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Speaker 2: a stud. Then those guys playing a lot last year,

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Speaker 2: but you know Procter wasn't like he was playing thirty

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Speaker 2: five minutes and he's still only a sophomore and this

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Speaker 2: is a much bigger role. But I think it's all

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Speaker 2: the whirling pieces around that you're trying to figure out.

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Speaker 2: And I thought Eric Musselman did a great job of

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Speaker 2: not guarding the non shooters for Duke. And look, on

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Speaker 2: some level, you have to you have to change how

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Speaker 2: you play when teams play kind of a one man

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Speaker 2: zone with the shop blocker. I mean that's having seen

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Speaker 2: that Creighton game up close against Oklahoma State and I

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Speaker 2: watched all the film leading up to it, that's how

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Speaker 2: they play right where they press up on three or

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Speaker 2: four perimeter players force every everything into the lane. And

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Speaker 2: he got Ryan Kalkbrenner, who's seven point one and does

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Speaker 2: a great job of not fowling in the lane, kind

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Speaker 2: of daring you to take and make mid range jump

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Speaker 2: shots or those little floater shots in two on ones,

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Speaker 2: and it's those are the shots you don't necessarily want

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Speaker 2: to take when you're a coach. That's not what we're

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Speaker 2: that's not what you're shooting for. So the first thing

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Speaker 2: for Duke is I think they're playing too many guys,

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Speaker 2: and I think that will work itself out. I do

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Speaker 2: think that that if you watched John Shire last year,

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Speaker 2: he seemed to figure out what he had by about

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Speaker 2: this time or into January, and it is inorganic to

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Speaker 2: have conference play. You know, I used to really hate

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Speaker 2: I don't like conference play this time of year, but

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Speaker 2: you almost wish that everybody had like a four.

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Speaker 1: Game conference stretch.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you a scheduling thought in a moment, but anyway,

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Speaker 2: I working back to Duke playing too many guys.

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Speaker 1: That's really kind of what it comes down to.

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Speaker 2: And you're at this point of the year where once

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Speaker 2: you kind of get to January, you're hoping you're freshmen,

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Speaker 2: the good ones.

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Speaker 1: They've evolved some, but you know that the juniors and

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Speaker 1: seniors can kind of carry you.

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Speaker 2: But you have your juniors and seniors for the most part,

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Speaker 2: because they're not as talented as guys that have left.

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Speaker 2: That makes any sense, I mean, you look around the

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Speaker 2: country and you'll notice that some of the starting lineups

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Speaker 2: are evolving where the younger players are starting to take

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Speaker 2: Oh why is that? Because when they got there, they

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Speaker 2: weren't ready and they're still probably not ready now, but

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Speaker 2: they have a higher ceiling, or the thought is they

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Speaker 2: have a higher ceiling than the older players. Now, some

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Speaker 2: teams just have older players. They're going to ride or

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Speaker 2: die with them. I think that's what you have from Creighton,

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Speaker 2: for example. But the Duke thing, a lot of it

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Speaker 2: is playing to any pieces. A lot of it is

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out how it's really hard to win

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Speaker 2: with young guys and people have you know, because we

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Speaker 2: see Duke a lot. They got them scouted and you know,

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Speaker 2: forever this has been an issue with Duke. Duke and

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Speaker 2: I don't they don't play as much that way defensively,

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Speaker 2: but you know, there was probably a ten year span

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Speaker 2: there where Duke all they did defensively was get up

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Speaker 2: the line and try and pressure you, and it didn't

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Speaker 2: matter who they were playing against. That's how they played right.

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Speaker 2: That's how they played up the line, pressuring everything. Matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, the twenty ten team that won the national championship,

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Speaker 2: that was the one team you know, I'm always going

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Speaker 2: to be the guy. They called them alarmingly unathletic, and

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Speaker 2: the crazy part was that they were alarmingly on athletic

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Speaker 2: at that time. Here's the contextup. But they played Arizona State,

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Speaker 2: who I think had James Harden in Madison Square Garden

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Speaker 2: and they got just carved up by Arizona State. And

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Speaker 2: they got carved up because they were trying to pressure

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Speaker 2: everywhere defensively, and they had Nolan Smith and John Shire

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Speaker 2: then Kyle Singler as well, so you didn't It's not like.

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Speaker 1: You had the freakiest athletes on Earth.

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Speaker 2: And when they changed their lineup and put Brian Zubek in,

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Speaker 2: they played much more back off the line, you know,

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Speaker 2: help oriented defense where they.

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Speaker 1: Just muled you on the glass and with their size

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Speaker 1: in a lane. Like again, no one's ever gone like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean the Duke guys have told me like, of

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Speaker 2: course you were right, but they didn't realize the adjustment.

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Speaker 1: The coach k adjustment in style mid.

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Speaker 2: Season changed forever the trajectory of that team, and Zubec

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Speaker 2: became a dominant big guy for them based upon how

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Speaker 2: they were playing. They couldn't play up the line with

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Speaker 2: the guys they were playing with. One of the reasons

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Speaker 2: that the Greg Paulis struggled in his career. Greg paulso

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Speaker 2: really good player, really good player, but what he was

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Speaker 2: was a point guard who could really pressure, who could

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Speaker 2: pressure that way defensively. That's just not who he was

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Speaker 2: or will ever be. The point is that Duke always

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Speaker 2: played one way. And one of the things that coaches

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Speaker 2: run into this time of the year is because you

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Speaker 2: haven't self scouted in practice, right, even when you play

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Speaker 2: in scrimmages, secret scrimmages, nobody doesn't guard guys, And now

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Speaker 2: you get into games and people get you completely scouted.

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Speaker 1: Some people won't. We're not gonna guard.

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Speaker 2: We're not gonna go past, you know, the free throw

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Speaker 2: line to make him shoot where some guys you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to change how he played ball, string coverings, whatever. Well,

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Speaker 2: that causes everything you run you kind of have to

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Speaker 2: tweak and adjust to and it's not easy. So I'd

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Speaker 2: say that's the other thing is now Dukes being scouted

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Speaker 2: and as probably the most watched college basketball team or

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Speaker 2: one of the two or three buzz watch college boss people.

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Speaker 1: That's the adjustment they're going to have to make.

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Speaker 2: And then trying to integrate, you know, Caleb Foster into

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Speaker 2: that lineup, who obviously, you know, we always have a

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Speaker 2: guy who in the Champions Classic as freshman, who makes

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Speaker 2: a bunch of shots and we get an unreal sense

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Speaker 2: of who they are. I love Caleb Foster. I saw

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Speaker 2: him last year. He was you know, those two Jeremy

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Speaker 2: and Caleb Foster were two dynamic guards in California. And

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Speaker 2: you know it's interesting, you know, Brownie James is so

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Speaker 2: high up on these draft wars.

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Speaker 1: This makes no sense.

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Speaker 2: Those dud just dominated him, Caleb specifically when he played

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Speaker 2: against They played against four times last year in high school.

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Speaker 2: But both of them are just freshmen and you know,

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Speaker 2: their reputation and their upside demand minutes. But as freshmen

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Speaker 2: you're going to be super inconsistent, and that's what they're

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Speaker 2: running into. And now they're scouted as well. So Purdue

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Speaker 2: loses again to Northwestern, and look, you can lose in

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Speaker 2: conference play on the road. Welsh Ryan is what a

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Speaker 2: cool place. I mean, just like historically, I hope people understand,

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Speaker 2: and I know it's been open for a while now,

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Speaker 2: but I hope people understand that was the worst gym.

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Speaker 2: It was a gym, worst gym in the Big Ten

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Speaker 2: by a mile. All the other teams in the Big Ten,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to think of that, they've all made kind

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Speaker 2: of the same. You know, Breslian is really good, but

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Speaker 2: you know, you look at what Penn State did where

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Speaker 2: they reck Hall was like perfect college basketball venue. Now

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Speaker 2: they play in the Price Jordan Center. They've done it

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Speaker 2: for twenty years. It's just cavernous. It doesn't make any sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, Wisconsin's place, the Coal Center is big, and

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Speaker 2: they don't lose there often, but there's no real atmosphere there.

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Speaker 1: Ohio State's shotten Steen Center or.

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Speaker 2: Whatever, Like it's just a big it's like a bad

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Speaker 2: NBA arena. Where what Northwestern did was they gutted the

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Speaker 2: inside and kept it at seven thousand seats and they

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Speaker 2: just made it an incredible venue.

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Speaker 1: And I can't.

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Speaker 2: Implore college administrators enough and like, look, a lot of

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Speaker 2: schools don't have this opportunity. But oklahom State's per for example,

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Speaker 2: right like that place is awesome.

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Speaker 1: It's thirteen. It's too damn big. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's not just that Oklahoma State hasn't been as good.

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Speaker 2: It's also that there's the thunder who wasn't there. But

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Speaker 2: just like seven thousand seats its great, A Pactorina is great.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: And I think Northwestern is the best remodel. They're an SMU.

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Speaker 2: Those are the two best remodels. Where they took a

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Speaker 2: small gym and instead of falling in love with hey,

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Speaker 2: we can put a couple of more thousand seats or

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Speaker 2: build some new kind of NBA style place where we

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Speaker 2: can get concerts in and whatever, and they do it.

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Speaker 2: They do those things obviously, sometimes either to get into

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Speaker 2: a tournament bid or to get to make more money

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Speaker 2: off concerts forever. The ones that just keep it the

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Speaker 2: stops New Mexico even they went down I think four

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Speaker 2: thousand seats back when they redid the pit.

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Speaker 1: But wels Ryan is awesome. But the warning sign it

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Speaker 1: has for Purdue is kind.

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Speaker 2: Of we think that the only way to beat them

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Speaker 2: is with small What was with really athletic guards getting

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Speaker 2: after Braden Smith and with with five men who can shoot,

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Speaker 2: who can shoot threes and drag Zach Edy out because

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Speaker 2: that's what they've lost. You know, the last two years

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Speaker 2: in the tournament is to low majors, but Northwestern's ability

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Speaker 2: to beat Purdue granted at home two consecutive years. How

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Speaker 2: the Cats play, You could be happier Chris Collins. Everyone

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Speaker 2: I know, everyone I know in Evanston last year was like,

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Speaker 2: and we're gonna have to fire Chris Collins and he's

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Speaker 2: an awesome dude, Like, well, so why do you have

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Speaker 2: to fire him?

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Speaker 1: Like, well, I just program's kind of stuck in not

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Speaker 1: really doing anything.

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Speaker 2: And then of course they go to the NCAA tournament

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Speaker 2: and remember before he got there, they've never been to

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Speaker 2: an NCAH. But I just I'm not sure I really

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Speaker 2: understood that whole thing. But they play beautiful basketball in

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Speaker 2: terms of the consistency of their movement within all the

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Speaker 2: actions that they run.

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Speaker 1: And look, they they really attacked Zach Edy.

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Speaker 2: And Zach Edy, you know, he fouled out like pretty

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Speaker 2: much every big guy that Northwestern had, and yet they

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Speaker 2: just kept coming at him and changing their coverages and

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Speaker 2: trying to limit his pain touches. And they're really quick

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Speaker 2: and you know, forcing him off the block, and you know,

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Speaker 2: when he's not two to four feet away, it's a

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Speaker 2: different game, and.

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Speaker 1: He does struggle to move out of his zone.

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Speaker 2: That was an amazing play they ran for him, them

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Speaker 2: to win the game or just send the ball game

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Speaker 2: to overtime.

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Speaker 1: And they just threw it up to him.

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Speaker 2: And he's just bigger than everybody catches and lays it

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Speaker 2: in with like zero point six seconds ago.

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Speaker 1: But I again, the point is not.

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Speaker 2: That that Northwestern can win a home game again it's

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Speaker 2: the number one ranked team in the country, or that

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Speaker 2: they have produced number it's more how do they do it?

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Speaker 1: And they did it a different way.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they some of their fives can step out and shoot,

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Speaker 2: and they're you know those big ten teams, they're all

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Speaker 2: loaded up with you know, two or three six foot

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Speaker 2: ten dudes, so he can throw multiple bodies at him.

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Speaker 2: But I thought it was the movement, the actions, you know,

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Speaker 2: not just getting caught up. So many teams they say, hey,

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Speaker 2: we want to attack Zach Edy on a ball screen,

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Speaker 2: so they put them on a ball screen, you know,

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Speaker 2: right the start of every possession. Whereas what Northwestern does is,

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Speaker 2: you know, they really moved around, coming some slight of

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Speaker 2: hand stuff and then they get Boo booie kind of

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Speaker 2: in that two on one where he's you know, coming

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Speaker 2: downhill and he's got a great floater game, really good

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Speaker 2: in those middies, and you know, just a volume of

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Speaker 2: attacks on a big guy, and I think some of

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Speaker 2: that wears him out on the offensive end as well.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, like, look, Braden Smith is good,

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Speaker 2: but there are times in which he still looks like

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Speaker 2: a sophomore. They don't don't really have They don't have

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Speaker 2: a wing who can go get you a bucket.

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Speaker 1: They're not built that way.

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Speaker 2: And you know they're a good team that that Purdue

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Speaker 2: continues to be a good team that doesn't have an

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Speaker 2: NBA player.

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Speaker 1: Can will Zach you be playing the NBA? Probably?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he'll make it. He'll make a ton overseas.

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Speaker 2: Will you play in the NBA? Probably, But you're like,

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Speaker 2: what does that matter? Well, when you have a guy

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Speaker 2: who can just all things are going bad and break

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Speaker 2: you down, and maybe not even.

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Speaker 1: An NBA player, like like Boo Boo.

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Speaker 2: He's not an NBA player, but he's one of those

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Speaker 2: stud college players who can just end the game. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna get you a bucket, and they don't don't.

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Speaker 1: Really built that way, really built that way.

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Speaker 2: So I still like Purdue and I think they can

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Speaker 2: win a national championship because I don't think this is

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Speaker 2: a year in which the top teams have a lot

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Speaker 2: of those guys, or especially have an older guy like that.

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Speaker 2: But you can see that some of the same old

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Speaker 2: Purdue issues peak their head out at inopportune moments. So

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Speaker 2: my guest today is Jason Belzer. Jason, I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: about his company, all the things that he does, but

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Speaker 2: it's a perfect time to have men since he truly

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Speaker 2: is an expert in the nil space as well as

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Speaker 2: the college coaching kind of space.

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Speaker 1: He's a former student athlete.

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Speaker 2: And he's the founder of Ady University. He's a professor

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Speaker 2: of strategy as well and sports law at Rutgers University,

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Speaker 2: and he's also the director of the Jewish Coaches Association.

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Speaker 1: Let's welcome in. He's Jason Belzer.

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Speaker 3: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

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Speaker 3: the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio

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Speaker 3: dot com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to

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Speaker 3: listen live.

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Speaker 2: Jason, your let's start with your background in hoops for

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Speaker 2: the last ten years you've done.

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Speaker 1: What So?

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Speaker 4: I have been a attorney in college sports for almost

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Speaker 4: seventeen years now, and I represent a whole bunch of

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Speaker 4: college basketball coaches, both on the men's and women's side.

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Speaker 4: Helped start the College Insider Tournament and then build a

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Speaker 4: media company called Athletic Director d one Ticker, which helped

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Speaker 4: me build relationships with administrators and coaches and all the

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Speaker 4: important people in college athletics.

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Speaker 5: You went to law school ware Rutgers played football. Ruers

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Speaker 5: went to law school or Rutgers.

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Speaker 1: What was Rutgers football like? When you played there?

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Speaker 5: We were the worst team in the country.

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Speaker 4: We were literally at the time, I believe there was

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Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty FBS schools and we were one twenty.

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Speaker 5: My recruiting tip to Rutgers.

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Speaker 4: When I was in high school, we lost to West

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Speaker 4: Virginia eighty to seven, Which is did you go there?

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Speaker 4: Because it was really the only chance I had to

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Speaker 4: play Division I football. Plus it was a school that

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Speaker 4: was forty minutes down the road from where I grew up,

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Speaker 4: So or at least FBS football now, we got really good,

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Speaker 4: really fast, And I wasn't really contributing much to that.

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Speaker 4: But it was, you know, it was a great opportunity

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Speaker 4: to engage and be part of a you know, a

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Speaker 4: big time football program, even though we weren't very good

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Speaker 4: at least initially.

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Speaker 2: So you're going to law school, was it always your

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Speaker 2: intention to go into some sort of sports law, some

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Speaker 2: from a sports focus.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean I knew when I was an undergrad that

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Speaker 4: I wanted to be an agent, and I actually wanted

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Speaker 4: to be an agent representing student athletes, but you couldn't.

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Speaker 5: Do that back then.

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Speaker 4: So I said, I'm going to do the next best thing,

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Speaker 4: and I'm going to be an agent that represents college coaches.

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Speaker 4: And I literally just started code calling and emailing people.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: I was reaching out to Rick Patino and you know,

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Speaker 4: lud Olson and anybody else that was coaching at the time,

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Speaker 4: trying to get them to let me represent them.

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Speaker 5: I was a twenty one year old kid, and eventually

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Speaker 5: I caught on.

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Speaker 4: I got some people to join, and you know, that's

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Speaker 4: where I got involved very early on.

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Speaker 5: In the Jewish Coaches Association.

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Speaker 4: And started working with some young Jewish coaches like Josh Passner,

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Speaker 4: who literally just became head coach at Memphis at the time,

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Speaker 4: and you know, the rest is history on that end.

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Speaker 4: But even throughout that time, I've always been a tremendous

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Speaker 4: advocate for student athletes and NIL rights. I was I

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Speaker 4: am like a walking oxymoron. I'm the guy that is

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Speaker 4: helping coaches make millions of dollars and then at the

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Speaker 4: same time realizing that some of this money should be

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Speaker 4: shared with the student athletes, which is why as NIL

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Speaker 4: started to become more of a reality, I knew that

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Speaker 4: I was maybe the best positioned person on the entire

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Speaker 4: planet to help the industry through what was going to

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Speaker 4: be a very tumultuous time that we are in. And

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Speaker 4: everything that I predicted has happened, and everything that I

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Speaker 4: believe will happen is unfolding here, and we are seeing

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Speaker 4: this before our eyes. We're going to be at revenue

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Speaker 4: share in some capacity within the next twelve to eighteen months,

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Speaker 4: no question.

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Speaker 1: Do you think what about the schools where there isn't

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Speaker 1: the revenue.

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Speaker 5: I don't think it matters.

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Speaker 4: I think you're going to have a subset about forty

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Speaker 4: schools that are going to make a decision that that

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Speaker 4: is the route that they're going to want to go.

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Speaker 4: That decision will be predicated on a few factors. Number One,

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Speaker 4: Either they will make the decision themselves, the decision will

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Speaker 4: be made for them through the court system through one

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Speaker 4: of these employment or NLRB cases, or the decision will

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Speaker 4: be partially predicated on what Congress passes.

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Speaker 5: I have no.

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Speaker 4: I am not going to rely on Congress to do anything.

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Speaker 4: They can't even get a budget pass, much less save

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Speaker 4: college athletics. And so there's no question that these conversations

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Speaker 4: already happening. I can tell you that they're happening because

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Speaker 4: I'm involved in some of them. About what does this

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Speaker 4: new model look like? We as an organization, my company

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Speaker 4: Student Athlete NIL now works with more than forty different institutions.

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Speaker 4: We are the largest mover of money in NIL as

438
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: it relates to rosters than anybody else. We have over

439
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 4: a thousand student athletes under contract. And so this the

440
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,959
Speaker 4: groundwork is there, and we are moving violently towards a

441
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 4: new era in whatever looks like the semi professionalization of

442
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 4: college sports, even though it's pretty much been semi pro two.

443
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 5: Or three years. We'll just have some structure around it.

444
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: Okay, So in your mind, what does it look like in.

445
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 4: The ultimate and easiest structure it would be to have

446
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: these institutions that choose to want to participate in this

447
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 4: to agree upon a revenue share. We would start with football,

448
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: potentially basketball, but football is a much bigger piece where

449
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: there is some sort of guaranteed minimum compensation for every

450
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 4: athlete on the roster. I suspect that, based on what

451
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 4: we are seeing in the SEC Conference that that number

452
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 4: will be an estimated eight to ten million dollars for football,

453
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 4: meaning that you're looking at about one hundred thousand dollars

454
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 4: for each student athlete. That football and maybe basketball is

455
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 4: split off into a professional organization that is licensed underneath

456
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 4: the existing athletic departm, so it could be Michigan Football

457
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 4: LLC or whatever you want to call it. When that happens,

458
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 4: the student athletes are likely to be deemed employees unless

459
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 4: there's some sort of safe harbor position that is provided

460
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 4: by you know, maybe Senator Cruz or whoever else if

461
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 4: the legislation gets through. But by splitting it off, what

462
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 4: it does is that it creates a scenario where Title

463
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 4: nine no longer applies because if my athletes are employees,

464
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. And what ends up happening then, is

465
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,239
Speaker 4: that I can choose to keep my women's teams. I

466
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 4: can likely choose to gut them to save money if

467
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 4: I need to, which will happen to some capacity. But

468
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 4: I don't have to play this nonsense Title nine game.

469
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 4: If these athletes are actually generating revenue, and then the

470
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 4: big question becomes, what happens to all of the other sports,

471
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 4: what happens to women's sports, what happens to Olympic sports.

472
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: The reason why SEC schools and we work with the

473
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 4: number of them, and we're paying a number of their

474
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 4: payrolls are trying to drive eight, nine, ten million dollars

475
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 4: a year into their collectives is because they know this

476
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: is happening. It's going to be here in the next

477
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 4: twelve to twenty four months, and so they are literally

478
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: trying to wean themselves off of that money today. They

479
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 4: are saying, if we're going to have to operate in

480
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 4: a revenue share world in two years or one year,

481
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: why are we not trying to figure out how to

482
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 4: operate with ten million dollars less in our budgets today?

483
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 4: And let's just allocate those dollars to the student athletes

484
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 4: right now. The problem is that there are schools within

485
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 4: the SEC less so than SEC, and more so in

486
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 4: the Big Ten that don't have that type of money.

487
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 4: And so while the revenues are similar for both conferences,

488
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 4: I can tell you that Ruckers and Purdue and Northwestern

489
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 4: and Maryland, they don't have the same capacity as Ohio

490
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 4: State and Michigan. Everybody knows that they're not paying the

491
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 4: same numbers for nil and that's not too different from

492
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 4: what's happening in the SEC. I mean Mississippi State, you know,

493
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 4: South Carolina. Are they as competitive with LSU and Alabama?

494
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 5: They're not.

495
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: So Okay.

496
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: The picture you're paying, though, means, as you said, and

497
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: this is a very realistic picture, is whenever you pump

498
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: something up like football, something's going to fall short, like

499
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: women's sports. How does that work? I mean, I understand

500
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 2: you're talking about legally splitting them off, but the reality

501
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 2: is that so much of this has been created so

502
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: that there's equal opportunity, and I just wonder how that

503
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 2: plays out in Congress and in the courts.

504
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 4: So how I will give you the solution, but I

505
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 4: have some questions for you. First, Doug, Yeah, how can

506
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: Congress force any entity to do something? Where's the money

507
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 4: going to come from. It's going to be too late

508
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 4: by that point.

509
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: Right.

510
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: Well, here, here's where where does the money come from?

511
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: Is this?

512
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: As you know and I know, states give far less

513
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 2: to their land grant universities for sports, if anything, then

514
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: they ever have previously. But that doesn't stop them from

515
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: giving money and giving benefits as well to other areas

516
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: of the school. So that's the that's the threat. Right,

517
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: If you don't do it our way, then you get

518
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: no funding.

519
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: So the University of Arizona that is facing a massive

520
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: budget crisis is now a sudden going to have to

521
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 4: come up with the next their five million dollars ten

522
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 4: million dollars to continue to fund their women's programs because

523
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 4: Congres said, so that's going to be a disaster. I

524
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 4: will tell you what will happen. You may very well

525
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 4: be right, Doug, Like, let's play that out one hundred

526
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: percent certainty it happens, what will then happen and this

527
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: is the likely outcome for all of this is that

528
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 4: you will have a private equity firm come in, and

529
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 4: a private equity firm will come and say I will

530
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 4: give you I will Arizona, whoever, I will give you

531
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 4: one hundred million. I will give you two hundred million dollars,

532
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 4: five hundred million dollars.

533
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 5: What is Ohio State football worth? What is Texas football worth? Billions? Right?

534
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 5: I will give you X number of dollars as an annuity.

535
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 4: For whatever percentage twenty five thirty percent of your future revenue.

536
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 4: You take that two three hundred million dollars and then

537
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 4: that money and its interest, you know you will make

538
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 4: you ten percent on that will pay for your women's

539
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: programs moving forward, and we're good. Right, So the school

540
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 4: will be forced to sell off and Doug take the

541
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 4: University of Arizona as an example, because it's low hanging

542
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 4: fruit here. You don't think that the president and the

543
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 4: board of trustees of that university, facing an existential crisis

544
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 4: wouldn't take five hundred million dollars right now to sell

545
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 4: off fifty percent of their athletics program to save the university.

546
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 5: Of course they would.

547
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: I mean, what is the endowment of Arizona a billion,

548
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: billion and a half. You're gonna get fifty percent of

549
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: your endowment for a portion of your athletics team.

550
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 5: They're gonna sell it tomorrow. Rutgers operates at a twenty

551
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 5: five million dollar loss every year.

552
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 4: If they can go raise five hundred million dollars, then

553
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 4: the university's endowment is a billion dollars. They will sell

554
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 4: that tomorrow and it solves all their problems. And as

555
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 4: an alum, you know, if Oklahoma State puts out a

556
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: shingle and says, hey, we're gonna go do this, You're

557
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: gonna go put your money in Doug.

558
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 5: Right, so am I? Everybody will? Everyone wants to be

559
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 5: an owner.

560
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: You know what the ironic thing is, that's essentially what

561
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 4: we're doing with the collectives anyway. Right, you're just not

562
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 4: actually getting an ownership stake unless you invest into my company.

563
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 2: But that's getting You're getting an ownership stake of a player,

564
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: but you're not getting any return on it.

565
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: Right, That's the only turn.

566
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 5: On what you're seeing.

567
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: Sure, what about what happens with the donation game? Does

568
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: that totally go away?

569
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 5: Well, it's all going to go in house regardless.

570
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 4: I mean it's already moved in house in some capacities.

571
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 5: We have many mechanisms that.

572
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 4: We work with universities to be able to manage cash flow.

573
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 4: I mean we are in the transfer portal, we're in

574
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 4: day two and by our estimations this there will be

575
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 4: about four hundred million dollars that will change hands over

576
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 4: the next forty five to sixty days.

577
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 5: In terms of contracts.

578
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 4: We will control the largest proportion of that because of

579
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 4: the number of universities that we represent. But this will

580
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: also be the biggest nil exchange ever because the reality

581
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 4: is that we probably go to rev share and a

582
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 4: lot of that will be absorbed in house, right, and

583
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: then donors just you know, Doug, You'll keep going Oklahoma State,

584
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 4: and then Oklahoma State will sign its revshare contract with

585
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 4: the football and basketball teams, and the donor money will

586
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 4: just flow into this university and be one bucket of

587
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: the revenue share. There is so much more opportunity for

588
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 4: real nil though that schools are taking are not taking

589
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: advantage of the majority of them are not because they

590
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 4: have poor infrastructure set at the place to drive this

591
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 4: type of revenue.

592
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: When you say real nil, what do you mean?

593
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 4: I mean real endorsement marketing potential? I mean, you know,

594
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 4: I'll give an example, Doug. I know you may not

595
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 4: want to hear it, but we work with the University

596
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 4: of Oklahoma, and I would say that Crimson and Cream

597
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 4: is kicking the butt of whatever Oklahoma State has going on,

598
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 4: because we are writing, we are running a high, you know, functioning,

599
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 4: professionalized operation where we are generating.

600
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 5: We have generated in excess of.

601
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 4: Two and a half million dollars in real nil, non

602
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 4: donor money for ou student athletes over the last thirteen

603
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: months that we've been operating at Oklahoma. What has Oklahoma

604
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 4: State been able to generate for their athletes in that

605
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 4: same time, not touching donor money, not a whole lot, right,

606
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: real nil right endorsements, trading cards, marketing appearances, television commercials,

607
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 4: membership programs, all of those different things. There is more

608
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: money in nil than there is in multimedia rights because

609
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 4: you're not beholden to just one partner. You don't have

610
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 4: to just be an exclusive partner of Hal Smith. You

611
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 4: can go work with McDonald's and everybody else. That's just

612
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: part of it, right, and so there's real nil value.

613
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 4: That's what our focus is is an organization. Sure, we're

614
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 4: running money from donors, but at the end of the day,

615
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 4: we want to build a billion dollar industry that is

616
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: based on real nil transactions and the power of the

617
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 4: student athlete is an influencer.

618
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: Who's the what school or are the most advanced in

619
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: the real ail.

620
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 4: There are a handful. Again, I would say Oklahoma LSU

621
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 4: has done a fantastic job. Not on the collective side,

622
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 4: They've done an awful job on their collective. They've done

623
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 4: a great job in helping provide marketing opportunities for their

624
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 4: student athletes. USC has done an okay job, again not

625
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 4: on the collective side.

626
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 5: On real nil.

627
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 4: Tennessee has done a pretty good job because of Spire.

628
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 4: The difference is that we are a sports marketing company, right.

629
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 4: We employ full time salespeople, we employ full time business developers.

630
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 4: The vast majority of schools are just operating collectives, or

631
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 4: they have collectives that are being operated by part time

632
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: donors and alumni, and then internally they have people that

633
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 4: aren't real revenue generators. That's also the problem. Doug College

634
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 4: athletics has been based on a ecosystem of money that

635
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: comes from donors. Right, That's why it doesn't stay. He's

636
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: Texas A and m to go fire Jimbo Fisher and

637
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 4: have to go you know, loan. There another seventy five

638
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 4: million dollars in money through their nonprofit status athletics department

639
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 4: to go pay it off from donors. These people are

640
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 4: not thinking about what the bottom line is, how do

641
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 4: we drive real, real revenue to our student athletes? And

642
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 4: so there has been a very very small amount of

643
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: money that has come through. Nebraska probably has done a

644
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 4: good job because Blake Lawrence has started Open Doors is

645
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: from Nebraska and he's dedicated a lot of his time

646
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 4: to doing that. Oregon because of Division Street and what

647
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: Phil Knight has been able to do there. But outside that,

648
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 4: most institutions are not doing very much at all when

649
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: it comes to monetizing the real value of what a

650
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 4: student athlete is, mostly because their hands off.

651
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 5: They don't want to deal with it.

652
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: And that's why ads rather retire than go figure out

653
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 4: this nil thing.

654
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: That's it for Part one, Okay, part two. What are

655
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: the downsides? Well, the downsides what about women's athletics and

656
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: will college athletes actually sit out if they can't get

657
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: the deal they want when it's collectively bargained for?

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Speaker 1: And we'll get to that in the next episode. I'm

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Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieb. This is all ball