1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roback and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: For more than a year, Richard Ramirez terrorized California, slipping 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: into homes at night and attacking victims with seemingly no pattern, men, women, children, 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: young and old. The unpredictability of his crimes made the 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: so called night Stalker one of America's most feared serial killers. 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: In the movie The night Stalker, Lou Diamond Phillips portrays 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: Ramirez years later on San Quentin's death row. The film 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: lends fictional encounters with the very real crimes, psychology, and 11 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: mythology surrounding Ramirez. We're going to dive into the horrifying 12 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: case and the challenge of telling a true crime story 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: about a killer who became almost as anous for the 14 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: fascination surrounding him as for his crimes. Lou, Welcome to 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking with me today. 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: Thrill Thrilled to be here. Thanks for the time, appreciate it. 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: I really, first of all, I'm a very big fan 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: and heaven for many years, so it really is an 19 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: honor to speak with you, and your work in this 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: movie is just so disturbing and chilling and excellent. So this, 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: you know, Richard Ramirez is one of those names that 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: immediately conjures up fear, but the reality of what he 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: was doing was it was just even more terrifying. So 24 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: but before you made The night Stalker, how much did 25 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: you actually know about the extent of his crimes? 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: Well, you know what's interesting is that is it I 27 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: was in La at the time, you know, I got 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: to La in eighty six and filmed Love Abba that summer, 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: and I think it was eighty seven, was like the 30 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 2: majority of his. 31 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: The crimes predominantly eighty forty five. 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: Right, And so yeah, no, because I remember, I remember 33 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: being sort of immersed in it at the time and 34 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: very and very aware of it because it was going 35 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: on and this was, you know, not too long after 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: you know, the Hillside Stranglers as well. So, I mean, 37 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 2: interestingly enough, I did quite a bit of research when 38 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: I was doing the movie. The First Power was The 39 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: First Power, you know, dealt with a serial killer, obviously 40 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 2: demonic and and loosely based Patrick Channing, the character played 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: by Jeff Kober loosely based you know, on On Ramirez. 42 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: And as a result, you know, I did a lot 43 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: of reading up on the Hillside Strangler and whatnot, a 44 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 2: little bit of reading on on Ramirez and did some 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: ride arounds with Detective Bob Grogan, who was one of 46 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: the guys who caught the Hillside Stranglers. Oh wow, really 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 2: that task force? So yeah, we did. The first power 48 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: was at eighty nine, So I was aware, you know, 49 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: of the exploits and and and uh, you know the 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: uh and being in southern California and knowing that you 51 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: know this this was sad enough for serial killers at 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: the time. 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, did people Was there a feeling in the air, 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: like were people really afraid? I mean, you read these 55 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: things that they were people were locking their windows, they 56 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: were doing because we didn't have this sort of communication 57 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: that we have now and the availability of information, so 58 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: people were really no watching news. 59 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 2: And you know and reading the newspapers and whatnot. You know, 60 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: you know, the internet was up there then people on 61 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: their phones was not there, so so uh uh and 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: and and I would imagine that a lot of the 63 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: anecdotal evidence only you know, uh made people more afraid 64 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: because you don't know, you know, the whole truth. I mean, 65 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: there's a ton of misinformation now, but you know, when 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: people were going, oh, I heard this happen, you know 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: to you know, two streets over or whatnot? You do, yea. 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: And the fact that that ra mirors Is methodology was 69 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: just so random. 70 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: Yes, that's one of the things that was so scary. 71 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: There was no real pattern or no victim profile. 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: No. And so you know when I when I started 73 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: doing the research on it, and by the way, the 74 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: book The Night Stalker Philip Carlo or Carlo, Yeah, amazing, 75 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 2: amazing resource, all of the the videos of him, which 76 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: there weren't many, you know, half a dozen or so. 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: But once again, one of my greatest resources was a 78 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: real life detective, and that was Detective Gil Carrillo, who 79 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: was the co head of the task force that was hunting. Oh. 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: Yes, he's in the documentary one of the most recent documentaries. Yes. 81 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, and I did the forward to 82 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: the novelization of The First Power and talk about this 83 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 2: a lot as well. Uh but yeah, all of that 84 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: went into my research on Ramirez and and you know 85 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: what it was to get inside his head. I've said 86 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 2: it before, I mean, he's a really really chilling guy, 87 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: you know. And I had played a role on Law 88 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: and Order Seek, you know, Special Victims Unit that was 89 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 2: somewhat similar. That was there was a little bit of 90 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: an appetizer for yeah, for the main course of Richard Ramirez. 91 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it's wonderful because the fandom has voted me 92 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: like one of their top ten, you know villains on SVU. 93 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: But the approach to that role was very similar. And 94 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: what was I think most frightening about Ramirez is how 95 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: sort of banal and normal he was, you know, just 96 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: I'd even called him the beavis and butt heads of 97 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: you know, of Ceibal Keepers because he would listen to 98 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: a C. D C. You know, when he drove around 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 2: la and just kind of you know, have a feel 100 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 2: for things, and you know, it was this unwashed t shirt, 101 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: wearing bad tooth, you know, Brad breath kind of right. 102 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: It's almost like a caricature of a person, not not 103 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: this sort of you know Mike Myers kind of you know, 104 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: frightening you. 105 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 2: Know, uh uh thing that we get in the movies. 106 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: He was. He was just so you know, mediocre and 107 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: and and uh uh monotone, you know, I mean you know, 108 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: in the trial, he he you know, gained notoriety because 109 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you know, he put the long 110 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: hair in the rock and roll persona. He felt like, 111 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: you know, had a little bit more of that charisma. 112 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: But that's really what he aspired to. He wanted he 113 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: wanted to be famous, right, and so you know it 114 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 2: was it was in his uh you know uh uh 115 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: study of Satanism and and and and and wanting to 116 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: feel superior in all of that, you know. And I 117 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: had I had a very funny experience after having read 118 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: the book and watched the you know, the uh a 119 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: lot of the videos and whatnot, you know, and and 120 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: you know, going back to my training as an after 121 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 2: I come from the theater, I thought, oh, right, you 122 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: know what, I'm going to see what it feels like. 123 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: So I put on a hoodie and I went to 124 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: a neighborhood that wasn't mine, and I was just going 125 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: to walk around for a while, and if the windows 126 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: were open, I'm gonna I was going to look into 127 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: him from the street. And just because that's sort of 128 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: what he did, is he just sort of you know, 129 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: like he was, you know, browsing in the produce section, 130 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: you know, trying to figure out which apples he wanted. 131 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 2: You know, So I parked in a neighborhood that wasn't mine, 132 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: had the hoodie was was, you know, going to walk 133 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: up and down the streets. And I passed a guy 134 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: you know, who was walking his dog, and as I 135 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: passing me, went, hey, Lou Diamond love your work. 136 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: Like this is never gonna work, is not gonna work. 137 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: I can't get away with this anymore. You know. 138 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: Now you're gonna say somebody like call the cops on you. 139 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been on that plan. 140 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know his his so psychiatrists have called 141 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: him what they call a made psychopath as opposed to 142 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: a born psychopath. So, you know, his childhood is horrifying 143 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: in its own right. And it's reported that between the 144 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: ages of ten and twelve he was exposed to extremely 145 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: violent wartime images by his cousin or his uncle. Yes 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: he was in Vietnam, who was in Vietnam, and you know, 147 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: horrible torture and raping women and sometimes decapitating them. And so, 148 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: as a society, how important do you think it is 149 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: for us to understand where someone comes from, while also 150 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: obviously not allowing that to excuse what they later do 151 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: in life. 152 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: It's interesting, you know, I mean, you know, especially now, 153 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: but I don't even know when this sort of phenomenon started, 154 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: of this massive interest in true crime, you know, and 155 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 2: I do think I think it is our morbid curiosity 156 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: about where it goes wrong, where you go off the rails, 157 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, what, what thing clicks in somebody's mind that 158 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 2: that that you know, uh, ceases to make them you know, 159 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: moral human beings, right, you know, people who are so 160 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: a moral they don't know right from wrong anymore, or 161 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: they do know and they don't care. Uh uh and 162 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: and uh, I think we're fascinated by that. You know, 163 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: we're fascinated by the fascinated by the bad guy. I mean, 164 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 2: especially you know in today's world where you know, people 165 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: are betting the rules, and you know, greed is good, 166 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: and you know all all of this other stuff that 167 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: sort of attacks anybody's moral compassed. Right, We as a 168 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: society go, okay, well, that's all right. 169 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: Right, It's like we're sort of breeding narcissism and making 170 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: it okay. 171 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: There was a time though, when when that that offended us, 172 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: when we found that to be horrific. Uh and especially 173 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: when it when it crossed when it crossed over the line, 174 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: you know, uh, and the line being a murdered you know, 175 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: or physical harm to someone. I mean, you know, unfortunately, 176 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: we're dealing with you know, people today, we're getting away 177 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: with assault and getting away with bullying and and and 178 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: all sorts of things that that, for some bizarre reason, 179 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 2: we've normalized. But there was a time where where we 180 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: were afraid that you know, the high school coach or 181 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: our pastor or anybody else you know, was secretly a 182 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 2: monster and said to discover that this was true, you know, 183 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: And and and it's it's been a long march. It's 184 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: been a long march since you know, uh Truman Capoti 185 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: did in cold Blood and investigated that. 186 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: I think that actually they do sort of use that 187 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: as a kind of birth birthing point of people really 188 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: being interested and fascinated by true crime. 189 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: It's it's absolutely the tipping point where everybody goes, how 190 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: could this happen? 191 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: Right? 192 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: And then you go through you know, the man Sion 193 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: Earra and everything else, and then into the you know, 194 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: into the heyday of serial killers, you know, right southern California, 195 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: and and but once again it's it's trying to understand 196 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 2: that psychology. I mean, part of it is we're fascinated 197 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: by it. How does it happen? The other part is 198 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: how do we prevent it? And then ultimately how do 199 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: we avoid it? Right? 200 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: How do we how do we not get that in 201 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: our world? Right? So when he we talked about that, 202 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: he started to really lean into Satanism, and then you know, 203 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: we could question he was raised Catholic and an abusive 204 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: father was an alcoholic. There were stories that he was 205 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: he would go and sleep in the cemetery to avoid 206 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: the abuse, and then his father tied him to a crucifix. 207 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: Like some of these things seem so unfathomable if you. 208 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: Wrote them in a movie, people wouldn't buy it. Now, 209 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: I mean, going back even further, when you know mom 210 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: was working in the Nocona booth factory in Alpasso, who 211 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: knows what talks and she was you know, yes and 212 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: that and that what you know what that did to 213 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 2: him in Uterope, Uh, you know, a head injury I 214 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: think when he was five. So it's just you take 215 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: any one of this, you know these you know ingredients 216 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: of this recipe for and I came out of you know, 217 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: reading that book, going, how could he not have been right? 218 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: You know, I mean he was roomed from a very 219 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 2: very early age to turn out this way, right, right. 220 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: So do you think the satanism element is something that 221 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: he you know, was a deeply held belief system or 222 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: something you just sort of used as a tool and 223 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: intimidation sort of? 224 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: He was an opportunist in many many ways, obviously I'm saying. 225 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: I mean he you know, even as victims they that 226 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: that was you know, once again his methodology. Could be 227 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: an older person, coulda be a younger person, could be married, 228 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: could be single, that didn't matter, you know. Uh. I 229 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: think that he to a certain extent was a karma 230 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: chameleon in that respect. You know, the Satanism to to 231 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: me was not some deeply held belief, but it was 232 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: it was a way for him to exercise a sense 233 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: of superiority. Uh. He felt like it empowered him. Uh. 234 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: And it was also you know, of the moment it 235 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: was you know, it was something that was in the zeitgeist, 236 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, I mean starting with Manson, 237 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: you know, and the health and the you know, all 238 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: of that in the forehead. Yeah, and so you know, 239 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: the and he wanted to be famous, you know, I 240 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: mean he really did have a rock and roll mentality. Yeah, yeah, 241 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: that kind of guy. 242 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could see him some of the older the 243 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: photos you see of him earlier are differ from those 244 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: ones in the Courtroom forward. And it's just that it's 245 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: like he's gained this sense of power and importance. It's 246 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: how much do you think that the because it seems 247 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: like the headlines, you know, sort of catered to this 248 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: mythology and made him seem almost supernatural. 249 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: He loved that. Yeah, he was reading all of the 250 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: press releases and when and when the press called him 251 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: the Nightstalker, he was rilled, you know, all of a sudden, 252 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: now he was a persona uh and and he embraced that. 253 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: And you know, I mean it's so funny because it 254 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: felt like part of part of him wanted to take 255 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: credit for it, you know, but that would have meant 256 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: getting caught, you know, but he was, he was he 257 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:22,359 Speaker 2: was so secretly h thrilled about you know, the notoriety 258 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: that that you know, it's it just fueled his desire 259 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: to keep going. Right. 260 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: Oh god, So the investigation they finally gained some they 261 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: found him essentially or started to get down the road 262 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: of finding him when the police recovered a fingerprint from 263 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: a stolen vehicle and identified him. I mean, to me, 264 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: that feels like this, it's pretty remarkable that that, after 265 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: all of these things, this little fingerprint ultimately is what 266 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: cracks the case. It's like, I'm just sort of fascinated 267 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: by these things. 268 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: And so they were able to put out his image, 269 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: you know, you know, and a lot of the sort 270 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: of renderings of him and all of that sort of thing. 271 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: And it's interesting too because I actually had the teeth Maade, 272 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: Oh you did. Yeah, I had the teethmade because that 273 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: was part of the trial as well. Yes, in that 274 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: he had bitten you know, other people and left you know, marks, 275 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: and that was going to be you know, some of 276 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: the evidence against him. Yeah. No, it was a deep 277 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: dive in transformation. I dropped like twenty five pounds because 278 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: I was playing him at the end of his life 279 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: when he died of lymphoma. 280 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Right. 281 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: My wife was also a makeup artist in addition to 282 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: him many many other things that some great great you know. 283 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: We actually did pull my eyes back a little bit 284 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: because he had that sort of kaya. 285 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: Oh, I was going to ask you that because I 286 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: feel like it did look like your face looked different. 287 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and and yeah, yeah he had he had those 288 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: you know, narrow eyes and I guess it's more like 289 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 2: a kyote I, you know. And and we you know, 290 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: we did that, we did the you know, the thing 291 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: where you pulled them back and and changed the shape 292 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: of my eye and I'm losing the weight, you know, 293 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: changed the shape of you know, my cheat bones or 294 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: anything else. He had those he had really you know, 295 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: pronounced cheap bones. But but my point was is that 296 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: is that people were suddenly starting to figure out who 297 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: he was, and he had gone out of town and 298 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: came back. Uh. And it wasn't the cops that actually 299 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: caught him. It was you know, it was a tighborhood 300 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: where somebody saw him walking down on the streets and 301 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: he didn't realize that that you know, there were renderings 302 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: of pictures up you know, and and the neighborhood just 303 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: you know, they chased him down and beat the crack. 304 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: Out of him. I there's something incredibly satisfying about that, 305 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: and like something that it's I love that they cover 306 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: that in the movie also, But it's like he there 307 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: is something that is so uh kind of righteous in 308 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: that somehow, yeah, exactly, you know that he was like 309 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: taken out of out of nowhere. He just they came 310 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: and attacked him the same way that he did, you know, 311 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: without any sort of warning. At his sentencing, the judge 312 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: said his crimes exemplified cruelty, callousness, and viciousness beyond any 313 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: human understanding, which I think is a pretty accurate description. 314 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: Did you learn anything about how the way he regarded 315 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: his victims once he was incarcerated and in jail. 316 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: He's a true psychopath, you know, who had no emotion 317 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: about it, you know, and that was the thing it, 318 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, we all if we see a 319 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: child suffering, if we see an animal suffering, those of us, 320 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: you know, with with a with a healthy emotional life, 321 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 2: you know, feel bad. We feel you know, we feel sympathy, 322 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: we feel pain. In many cases, you know, we're horrified, 323 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: even at the death of a stranger for instance. You know, 324 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's you know, sadly, we've had 325 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: a lot of you know, famous people pass away recently, 326 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 2: and you read the headline, and you know, and and 327 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: he was incapable of that, and so you know, not 328 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: not just the sociopath, but a true psychopath. And I 329 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: think a fascination you know, I mean it's it's it's 330 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: a little like Dahmer as well, an absolutely fascination with 331 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: with uh, the morbidity of it with you know, the 332 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: the fragility of life and how you know he could 333 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: wield power over that. But no, no particular sympathy for 334 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: for his victims. I think, you know, even a few 335 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 2: of them, you know, begged and you know, you know, 336 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: it's it's sort of had no effect, I mean. And so, yes, 337 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: a soulless, emotionless you know, the user, the taker of life. 338 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: And yeah, you don't know how you get there. That's 339 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 2: a long. 340 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: Process, yes, And so one of one of the strangest 341 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: things to come from this was once he was in 342 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: court all of these women he was arrested, these women 343 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 1: that started to write to him and became romantically fascinated 344 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: with them, and he eventually even married one of these 345 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: women who was a had a normal job in society, 346 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, she worked like for Tiger Beat magazine or 347 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: something as an editor. And you know, it's like it's like, 348 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: I can't what did you make of that? When you were. 349 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's the fascination with fame, you know, 350 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, oh yeah, fame and power, because 351 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: you know, to take a life, I mean that's you know, 352 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 2: to that that that, in some circles would be the 353 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: ultimate power. You know. Kissing said what he Allens said, 354 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, you know, it's it's it's the 355 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: biggest afrodisiac, you know, fame and power. And he had both, 356 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 2: and he became very very famous and very you know, infamous, 357 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: and and and you know, I mean, ultimately, I guess 358 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: wasn't a bad looking guy, you know what I mean, 359 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: killers go, but you know, not not quite you know, 360 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 2: handsome like Bundy. But you know, now all of a sudden, 361 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: he he attains the mythology that he wanted, you know. 362 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 2: And and it's weird because you know, you can you 363 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: can idolize, you know, Mick Jagger, you know idolize you know, uh, 364 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: you know Brad Pitt or somebody and and and and 365 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: did develop these feelings for them, and and then this 366 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 2: you know, he lust even you know, uh, for these 367 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: people that you know, you know from Afar and then 368 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: sort of you know, they they they would go to 369 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: the courtroom, and you know it was you know, I mean, 370 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: his groupies so crazy in jail, and it's it's it's 371 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: it's beyond me. You know, I don't know if i'd 372 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: be you know. 373 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: It's definitely beyond me. I mean, he's certainly not alone. 374 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: Manson had those types of followers as well. It's very strange, 375 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 1: and I really did appreciate in The Nightstalker in your 376 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: movie that it really doesn't they don't shy away from 377 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: sort of this the complexity of the human emotion and 378 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: experience and the Kit character, who's fictional, but I would 379 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: guess sort of an amalgamation of several people that she 380 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: really has to wrestle with her own demons and her 381 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: own references to almost suggested a strange attraction, but a 382 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: weird association with terrible things in her life that have happened, 383 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: and how he's sort of almost helped her out of them. 384 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: Like I really appreciated that about this movie, that it was. 385 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: Well a Megan Griffith. Griffith, I mean just just an absolute, 386 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: absolute amazing writer director. I've worked with her a few times. 387 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: She's actually the reason I'm in my new film Gangland, which. 388 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: Is Oh, she is oh I didn't. 389 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: Ye, She's no, she's the she. She wrote me an 390 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: email and said, hey, listen, Vincent Greshaw's a very dear 391 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 2: friend of mine and they knew each other from the 392 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: awards circuit, uh, the film festival circuit. She goes, you know, 393 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 2: he's got this fantastic stript in you're his first choice, 394 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: so automatically I think he's a genius. Uh yeah, and 395 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 2: that yeah, that's how I ended up in Gangland. But 396 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: but the interesting thing about you know, uh Megan script 397 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 2: is it's so smart and as you said it it 398 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: it does not painted black and white picture there there there, 399 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: there's so much nuance there. You know. We wanted you 400 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: to be, you know, fascinated and horrified by by room 401 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: mirrors at the same time. And and it's that thing, 402 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's you know, they teach tons 403 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: of psychology classes about it, you know, sex and death, 404 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: you know, can can go hand in hand, you know 405 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 2: what I mean. And there is this you know, this 406 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: fascination with death that you know that turns into this titillating, 407 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, almost arousing, you know, kind 408 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 2: of experience in some people's minds. 409 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: And Another thing that I found very effective and interesting 410 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: is that it doesn't the movie doesn't. It's we're not 411 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: simply recreating every crime scene right your you're It puts 412 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: Ramirez behind a table, chained and dying, and it makes 413 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: the audience spend time actually listening to him. And what 414 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: do you think about that structure allows us to understand 415 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: about him that a conventional serial killer movie might not. 416 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, you know, it's it's it's 417 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: a fictional story one hundred percent. That comes out of 418 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: the fact that Ramirez had other cases. There were many 419 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,239 Speaker 2: other cases, and the prosecutor had to not use some 420 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: of them because they didn't want to muddy the waters. 421 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: They wanted to be able to focus on the ones 422 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 2: that could actually prove and that they had evidence for. 423 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: But there were many others, you know, some of them children, 424 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: you know that you know went to his time in 425 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: the Bay Area and also maybe even in Texas and 426 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 2: and and and this was based on that. It's like, Okay, 427 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 2: what if this is one of those cases where somebody 428 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 2: else could be exonerated for a crime they didn't commit 429 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: that the Ramirez did. And what I love about it 430 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: is that, you know, it's as you said, the recreations 431 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 2: could could become very sort of histrionic and you know, 432 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: cinematic and everything else. And and one of the one 433 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: of one of the strengths I think of Megan's not 434 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: only uh screenplay, but her direction is a sense of 435 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: stillness because it forces you to focus on you know, Ramirez. 436 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: And that's that's one of the ways you know that 437 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: I that I had to get into the you know, 438 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: the character. I mean, first of all, you subjugate yourself 439 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 2: entirely to the character, and you try to to become 440 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: them and not hold him at arms distance and not 441 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: apologize to the audience for playing this person. And so uh, 442 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: it was, you know, a way to force you to 443 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: to look into his eyes, a way to force you 444 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: to listen to what he had to say, and and 445 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: you know, focus on the on the smallest of his reactions. Uh. 446 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: And and so I knew going into it it was 447 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: going to be probably one of my most restrained performances ever. 448 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: That it was all like right in here, yes, and 449 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 2: and and getting getting the voice right and getting you know, 450 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: the reactions and and it's so funny because you look 451 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: at some of the video footage and he's this kind 452 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: of you know, monotone guy, and he just, you know, 453 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: he seems to be somewhat bored by everything. And on 454 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 2: the first day, on the first day of which is 455 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: what's so frightening, because you could be talking about the 456 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: most horrendous thing and talking about you know, ordering lunch. 457 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: Yes. 458 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: And on the very first day of filming, we had 459 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 2: one of those you know, interview sequences, and Gil had 460 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: interviewed Ramirez five times, you know, right across from him, 461 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: you know, really you know, just just getting as much 462 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 2: information from them as you could. And I remember walking 463 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: out from the wide shot, the master shot of the 464 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 2: first taken Gilt Career, was standing by the monitors and 465 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: he just went, you nailed him, And that was the 466 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: highest praise. 467 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: Oh, I just got it chilled. 468 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, he said it from him, you know, five times. 469 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: It's really what your performance is so chilling. That's why 470 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: that's the first thing I said to you, because it 471 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: is really it is very understated and still and that's 472 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: why in those moments when he freaks out on her 473 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: towards the very end, it might even be the last 474 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: see with the two of them. It's so arresting and 475 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: so jarring, and then you realize if there was any 476 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: part of you that was sort of like falling into 477 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: his trap of kind of listening and trying to empathize 478 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: with him, it just all goes away and you realize, 479 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: oh my god, like, what did I just did I 480 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: just have a second where I was going to feel 481 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: bad for this man? 482 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: You know? 483 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: It gets very strong? Yes, right, right? Oh, it's so wild. Yeah. 484 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: So in the character of Kit played by Bellamy Young, 485 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: and when these scenes that we're talking about, she's trying 486 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: to get him to admit to these two other murders 487 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: that they firmly believe he has committed, and I think 488 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: those those were crimes that he was committed for ultimately 489 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: in real life, the young girl and her mother in 490 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: San Francisco. But you know, quite quickly she's the one 491 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: that's supposed to be getting information from him and comes 492 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: in in this sort of power position, but very quickly 493 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: he begins to manipulate her, and she, you know, starts 494 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: questioning her motives and her things. And did that power 495 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: reversal feel true to what you learned about him? 496 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: One hundred percent? And you know and once again I 497 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: mean you know, I yes, I brought a lot to 498 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 2: the table, but you know, the feast in many ways 499 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: was already set you know by me. Uh And and 500 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 2: I find it so hilarious because uh uh you know, 501 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 2: Bellamy and I you know, went on to be in 502 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: Prodigal Son together and you know, agies. 503 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: Like, well, there are no accidents exactly. 504 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: And so we already had that that history and that chemistry, 505 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: and you know, got to be love interests, you know, 506 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: and kids, and Richard could not you know, but you know, 507 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: and but you know, I mean Bellemy's a beautiful woman 508 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: and a sexy woman and and to sort of you know, 509 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: have her come in and she has that kind of 510 00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: rock and roll vibe in the movie, and you know, 511 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: she does skirts and everything else, and it's really you know, 512 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: pressing all of Richard's buttons, you know. And and but 513 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: but given his you know situation where he's he's shackled 514 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: and you know to a great extent, you know, a 515 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: forced impotency. You know, he now has to you know, 516 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 2: use his mind and uses you know wiles to you know, 517 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: get what he would just have taken physically you know previously. 518 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: So so yeah, that that was one of the other 519 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: really attractive things to play in the films that Cat 520 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: and Mouse. Yeah, and that that that sense of you know, 521 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 2: sexual undertone, that that ebbed and flowed, you know, right 522 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: to the other right. 523 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: It's really the I'm so glad that you've brought up 524 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: Megan Griffiths because it really is expertly directed and that, 525 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, and that that stillness and that kind of 526 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: allowing our discomfort as audience members is so powerful and 527 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: you don't always get that in movies like this, and 528 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: it's clear that she is, she's really she does it beautiful. 529 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: It's it's it's a great movie in that way. So 530 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: Ramirez died of cancer on death row in twenty thirteen 531 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: after more than two decades at San Quince and I 532 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: think without ever being executed. He never had an execution date. 533 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: So considering the number of death sentences he received, what 534 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: did you make of the fact that ultimately his life 535 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: ended in a hospital rather than execution chamber. 536 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: I'm sure he would be disappointed, you know, I think 537 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: he would have liked to have gone out with much 538 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 2: more fan fear as opposed to him you know, whimpering 539 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 2: end and you know, and without without a whole lot 540 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: of you know, notoriety, you know, just just a headline 541 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: after the fact, you know, Richard Ramiras dies, oh you know, 542 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: tomorrow over you know, executing him gets the lethal injection 543 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: and all that good stuff, because I mean, that's that's 544 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 2: that's what he always wanted, that's what he always Craig, 545 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: and I think, you know that was that was also 546 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: one of the I think motivators, you know, in the character, 547 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: at least in the film. It was just like, oh, 548 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 2: somebody still cares, somebody, somebody wants to, you know, interview me. 549 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: You know, you know, somebody see me. And so yeah, 550 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: I mean there's there's that the very very narcissistic personality 551 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: that you know, uh uh. And yet it's so funny 552 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: because for for such a narcissist, for for such you know, 553 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: somebody who so wanted to be a rock star, he 554 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 2: was invisible on the street. People, you know, they didn't 555 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: remember him. He was a non entity. 556 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: Well that's so interesting. In the one of the documentaries, 557 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: I think the most recent one that I talked about, 558 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: the there's a cold case where they could and I 559 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: think it might be the young girl and the mother 560 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: that that you all cover in the movie. They somebody says, oh, 561 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: there's DNA and it's it's Richard Ramirez, and the detectives like, 562 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: who's Richard Ramirez? Like isn't and she didn't. And then 563 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, the other detective says who is he? Like 564 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: he is one of the most infaminous, and then she's like, oh, 565 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: but that very idea that someone in law enforcement and 566 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: deeply embedded in that area could even be like, oh, 567 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: I sort of forgot about him, you know, it's kind 568 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: of like their worst nightmare. Probably, yeah. Yeah, So we 569 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: now have all these documentaries and recordings of Ramirez himself, 570 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: dramatizations and decades of analysis. Is there anything you learned 571 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: making The night Stalker that you think tends to get 572 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: lost when people kind of reduce the story to these 573 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, the mythology. 574 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: I mean not you know, between the book and all 575 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: the reporting and everything else, you know, and all the 576 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: true crime stuff. I think the thing that is most writing, 577 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: that is most overlooked in all the sensationalism is is 578 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: how really sort of hyper normal it is, you know, 579 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 2: I mean it's you know, you know, you watch him 580 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: movie and you know the the editing, you know, Ratchets suf, 581 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: the tension and the score makes it, you know, you know, uh, 582 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: uh frightening. This is a guy driving around deciding which 583 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 2: house he's going to walk into and kill somebody. And 584 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: it is so freaking normal. It is so that that's 585 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: his day, you know, thinking about that, and then I'm 586 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 2: gonna go do this, and then when I do this, 587 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna disappear, and you know, and and 588 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: and and uh it's that's what's I think, you know, uh, 589 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: ultimately what's really frightening because and you know, I mean 590 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: Stephen King is so much of his greatest work is 591 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: about the banality of evil, you know, and and uh 592 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: how how you know? It doesn't come with bells and whistles. 593 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 2: It's it's just silently, quietly happens. And and and that 594 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: that I think is what's frightening for for so many people, 595 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 2: you know. And and today we we we find this phenomenon. 596 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: Uh and and you know mass shooters. You know, you 597 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: look at these guys and you go, oh, you so quiet. 598 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: You know, Oh, I didn't know he was you know, 599 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Yes, walk around Rambo, you know. 600 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: And and when it happens in a mall or when 601 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 2: it happens in a school or a church or anyplace else. 602 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 2: You know, a rock concert, you know, a country concert. 603 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's like you you can't see it coming. 604 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 2: And that's what's so frightening about it. And you know, 605 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: most most people you know are aren't you know, overwhelmed 606 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 2: every single day worrying that they're randomly going to be killed, 607 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 2: you know. Uh. And and so when you look at 608 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 2: this in a nutshell, when you condense the story and 609 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 2: you look at it and go, oh my god, that's 610 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: so frightening. It's like, well, you know, not a single 611 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 2: one of these victims could have ever you know, seen 612 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 2: it coming, right. 613 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: That's the terrifying thing, except it, Yeah, that's it. You 614 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: know what do we go through our lives worrying about 615 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 1: it all the time or doing you know, this is 616 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: like the. 617 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yep. 618 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: Well I have thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed talking with you yourself. 619 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: You've got such a good you have such good mojo. 620 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 2: Like you do. 621 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: You're just like a good you have like such nice 622 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: open sort of like good energy. 623 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 2: I love it. It's so funny because a lot of 624 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 2: people say, oh my gosh, it was it hard to 625 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: lick all that characters. No, I'm nothing like him. I 626 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: was acting. 627 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: I was let him go. 628 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was easy, you know, didn't have to worry 629 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: about coming home and you know, cooking with sharp knives, right, 630 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: it was gonna be okay. It was. It was, you know. 631 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 2: And there have been a number of roles over the 632 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: years where where I have used my theater training and 633 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 2: built a character from the bottom up who is absolutely 634 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: nothing like me, you know, and this was one of them. 635 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 2: You know, where what what are the externals? What are 636 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 2: the internals? What? It was the thought process? What is 637 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: all of this that I need to acquire and then 638 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: and then embrace to to to make it happen? You know? Uh? 639 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 2: And and so uh, you know, I'm eternal. It's it's 640 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 2: one of my favorite performances. Uh, which is strange to 641 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 2: say because it's so you know, terrifying, but you know, 642 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: it was. 643 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: It was. 644 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 2: It was a great exercise in acting. Yeah. 645 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: Well it's a it's a very powerful movie. It's called 646 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 1: The Night Stalker. Lou I really really appreciate your time, 647 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: and as I said, you're a lovely soul and a 648 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: brilliant actor, And thank you for talking with me. 649 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate you. Thank you so much.