1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Frye and 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy d Wilson. We talked about Anne radcliff Oh 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: all week long. Tracy. I want to ask you right 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: off the bat, because when we began, you giggled a 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: little when we referenced the Castle of a Toronto. Yeah, 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: so the little giggle. Well, first, was there a specific 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: thing you were going to ask me? Or were you 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: just like, what was that about? What was that about? 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: When I was putting together my potential October episode topic 11 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: ideas for this year, one of them was Horace Walpole, 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: author of Castle of a Toronto. And when you and 13 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: I talked about sort of what you had on your list, 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: and I was like, I sort of felt like having 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: Anne Rad and Horace Walpole in the same year might 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: feel a little too similar. And I had not really 17 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: realized until you sent this outline over to me that 18 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: she specifically cited the Castle of a Toronto is like 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: one of the big influences on her. Yeah, I liked. 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: I just didn't know that. And uh so I was 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: as we were recording, I was thinking about interjecting that, 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: and then I was like, no, this is better for 23 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: Friday in the Box. So yeah, maybe at some point 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: in the future there will be a Horace Walpole episode. 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: I took a class in college, which at this point 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: was so long ago, that was called Discourses in Terror, 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: and it was a class that was all about the 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: evolution of the Gothic novel. So we read The Castle 29 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: of a Toronto. We read the Mysteries of Adolpho. I 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: don't think we read it was Northing or Abby that 31 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: was like Austin's satire, right, I don't think we read 32 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: that one, but I do think that it was in 33 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: the volume that included Castle of a Toronto and Mysteries 34 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: of Udauful. I feel like that was one book that 35 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: contained all three of those books. And then like from 36 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: there we read a whole bunch of other very dark 37 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: and foreboding and eerie and sublime and surreal stuff, ending 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: with a clockwork orange. Oh the way I love that book. 39 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: The way I love that book. I know, not everyone 40 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: loves that book. Yeah, it was a really interesting class. 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: It was an elective in the literature department, so yeah, 42 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: and it was it just was funny to me. That 43 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: I had not really realized that she had specifically cited this. 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: That could be a thing we talked about in class 45 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: twenty something years ago that I've forgotten now. But yeah, yeah, 46 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: I found the one of the hardest parts of prepping 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: this episode was trying to summarize any of her books, 48 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: because they do have a lot of tend rolls, and 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: like Sir Walter Scott mentions, like, it seems like she 50 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: forgot about this. There is the trajectory of her work 51 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: that intrigues me, which is that for a while, you know, 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: she fell so out of favor in people kind of 53 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: were like, that's cute little housewife writing romancy books, huh. 54 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: And now you know, it's kind of comeback full circle 55 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: and people are analyzing them with more depth, which I 56 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: find very interesting. It's one of those things where I 57 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: read her work and I will confess I'm not like 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: super into it. I was not either, Like I love 59 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: the descriptive parts, which is what she is always lauded for, 60 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: like writing really good, creepy descriptions of places and landscapes. Yeah, 61 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: but like then it gets her. I'm one of those 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: people that her device of like not telling you what 63 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: has actually just happened makes me a little itchy where 64 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, do I have to flip through this book 65 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: to find out what that was? But I do think 66 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: it's interesting that that she is the person like if you, 67 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, trace the line just like your college class did, 68 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: Like there is a line that can be traced from 69 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: her to modern works and it's not like they wouldn't 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: have existed without her, but she definitely influenced that trajectory 71 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: to I just always love those those flow charts of 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: like influence are always very interesting to me. There is 73 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: another thing we didn't really talk about in the episode 74 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: that is interesting to me, and if anybody listening who 75 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: maybe hasn't studied this era of English literature in particular 76 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: this idea of ladies publishing anonymous works, which was not 77 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: particularly uncommon because you know, women of this time would 78 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: read a lot because they did have leisure if they 79 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: were of a certain station, and then it was kind 80 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: of a natural progression for them to go I could 81 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: write something. It's kind of like when we did, I'm 82 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: jumping to a very different type of thing. But when 83 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: we were reading Billy Burke and it was like there 84 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: were always like women who were like I could write 85 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: a play. It's kind of the same thing, like people 86 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: who had a little bit of time on their hands 87 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: and could be like, no, I'll try my handwriting. So 88 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: there is like not a lack of anonymous works to 89 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: be found from this time that were most likely written 90 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: by a woman who had read a great deal which 91 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: informed her. Listen my time in college, the part of 92 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: my time in college that was spent on my English major, 93 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: because I was one of those people that kept adding majors. 94 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't change, I would just add was specifically all 95 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: into the English romantic literature. And I'm about to trash 96 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: talk Samuel Taylor Cole originally okay, which normally I don't do. 97 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: Accept He at one point had criticized her explaining her 98 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: endings because he felt that that didn't satisfy the reader's desires. 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: And every time I hear that, I think about Kubla Khan, 100 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: which is essentially him writing a poem where he says, 101 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: I dreamt about this amazing place and he goes on 102 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: to describe it, and then he goes but I could 103 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: I could never describe it, and then the whole thing ends, 104 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: and I'm like, you just did come on, there's some 105 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: weird parallel to be drawn there of like, really, you're 106 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: going to attack people for their expectations when you just 107 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: kind of were like, oh, I'm done with that, I 108 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: can't do it. Interesting. I want to talk about Richter Norton. 109 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: We mentioned several times. He is a historian that I 110 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: think a lot of our listeners might be into some 111 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: of his work. He really specializes in lgbtq I a 112 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: history and has written a lot of really good books 113 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: about it, particularly in England and I think some in 114 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: other areas of Europe. Writes some very cool things. His 115 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: analysis is really interesting. I find I like the way 116 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: he writes, so if you are in search of such, 117 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: that's a great place to start. He wrote a lot 118 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: of analysis in his biography of her about her anti 119 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: Catholicism and the Unitarianism thread that kind of goes through 120 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: her her thing, including William's periodicals that he edited and owned, 121 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: one of being kind of considered radical Unitarian gazettes essentially, 122 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: And so if you are into that, that's a very 123 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: interesting part of her story that didn't quite fit in 124 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: her life story, but is interesting in how you may 125 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: read her literature. He makes an interesting point about the 126 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: fact that she was self taught a lot of things, 127 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: like her knowledge of things like history were things she 128 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: had read in books, but she would mess it up 129 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: and she would kind of get away with that, whereas 130 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: when it came to people of lower class, she would 131 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: make fun of them for being uneducated, sometimes in stupid 132 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: and it's like, ma'am, that's not cool. You are very sensitive, clearly, 133 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: and yet you are not sensitive to other people's feelings 134 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: or needs if you don't think they're as good as you. 135 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: Super interesting. She wrote a line that I plucked out 136 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: of one of her travelogs, and I don't know why 137 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: it really stuck with me, because I keep finding myself 138 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: trying to pluck it apart to really get to the 139 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: meaning of it, and I continue to rethink what I 140 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: think it means. It's a very simple line, which is 141 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: I prefer rich beauty to wild beauty, unless accompanied by 142 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: such shapes of grandeur as verge upon the sublime. And 143 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, are you saying that you like man made 144 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: beautiful things, like things that are crafted by a human 145 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: versus like the natural, Like looking at architecture versus just 146 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: a landscape, unless there is something in that landscape that 147 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: wows you or are you saying something else? And I 148 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: can't keep like circling this, like what does she really 149 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: mean by rich beauty versus wild beauty? And what does 150 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: she mean by shapes of grandeur exactly? And we don't know. 151 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: I remember having a very long it might have been 152 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: like the whole a whole session of class in this 153 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: Gothic novel class that I took, just a lengthy, lengthy 154 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: exploration of like what exactly sublime hum meant in like 155 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: the context of this literary world? Yes, yes, well, And 156 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: that passage that I think you read in the course 157 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: of the episode where we're talking about the character of 158 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: Emily pulling back the veil and her talking about how 159 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: being afraid like terror is actually this sublime thing and 160 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: sort of feels good. And I'm like, perhaps I'm not 161 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: cut from the same clauses missus rad I'm certainly much 162 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: less uptight than it seems she might have been. But 163 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: I also don't find being afraid to be terribly fun. 164 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: I like horror films, but it's because I'm not afraid 165 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: of them, do you know what I mean? Yeah, listen, 166 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: I'll watch the Bobba Dukes seven times a day. I 167 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: love it. But yeah, I I like thinking about the 168 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: significant differences between her time and ours, and also trying 169 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: to translate what that means, like things that she said 170 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: and whether or not they apply to our current world, 171 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: because it was a very different world obviously, like we 172 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: mentioned in the show, like the things that were considered 173 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: you know, provocative or or terrifying in her time are 174 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: really extraordinarily mild for most modern readers, which is part 175 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: of it. Like I know, I remember talking to a 176 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: friend who had read one of her books, and I 177 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: even had this experience. I think as a teenager. I 178 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: don't remember if I had read Udolpho or The Italian. 179 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: It's been a long time. And being like I thought 180 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: this was supposed to be scary, like there was no 181 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: real sense of it being actually terribly frightening. Like my 182 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: takeaway was that Emily was just soft sure, not that 183 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: she had seen anything very scary. I was like, well, 184 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: she just fainted. I don't know, I'm not decrying anyone 185 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: who faints or is soft for that matter, but that 186 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: was my takeaway as like a seventeen year old, it 187 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: is like, gosh, she probably faints at everything. Which is, 188 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, the least kind read I could have possibly 189 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: had anyway, Anne Radcliffe, you you intrigued me. I feel 190 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: like we would not have liked each other had we 191 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: found ourselves in the same timeline. But I'm still very 192 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: intrigued by her. I do love the idea that she 193 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: was like, let's just let's just live our life. Let's 194 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: just go go hang out. I want to hang out 195 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: for the next thirty years. That sounds good. You want 196 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: to do that? Sure? Yeah, when you were talking about 197 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: they still went out in the carriage and they went 198 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: around London and the surrounding area and stopped wherever their 199 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: heart desired. I was like, that sounds great. Yeah, their 200 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: travels together. It seems like she and William just loved 201 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: hanging out together and traveling together. And that's kind of 202 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: the dream. You can't ask for more than that, right. 203 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: She lived a great life from the time she retired 204 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: from writing for like the next twenty four years. Sounds great, 205 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: sounds great. May we all have such delight? May you 206 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: have such delight. If this is your weekend, maybe go 207 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: drive your carriage around and stuff wherever you want. If 208 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: you have obligations or work or something of that nature 209 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: this weekend. I hope they still afford you time to 210 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: find delight and ride your carriage around wherever you want. 211 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: But we will be right back here tomorrow with a classic, 212 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: and then on Monday there will be another brand new episode. 213 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: And we are into Halloween times, so spooky and creepy 214 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: things afoot. Yeah, stuff you missed in History Class is 215 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 216 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 217 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.