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Speaker 1: Yea. It's often said that how do how do you

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Speaker 1: say it? A podcast in one hand is worth two

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Speaker 1: in the bush or a a. You can take a

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Speaker 1: podcast to water, but you can't make it stream. You

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Speaker 1: can't teach an old podcast or new tricks or can

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Speaker 1: you don't look at gift podcast in the mouth. Uh.

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Speaker 1: These may not be the exact verbatim figures of speech

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Speaker 1: or turns of phrase, but by gosh, by golly, by gum,

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Speaker 1: those things are fascinating nonetheless. Right, yeah, I'm Ben, Hi,

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Speaker 1: I'm Noel and uh and this is ridiculous history. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: we should tell people the name of the show. We

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Speaker 1: are a company, of course, as always with our super producer,

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Speaker 1: Casey Pegram give him a hand if you're not driving.

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Speaker 1: And this is a very special episode for us. No,

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Speaker 1: we are exploring some strange dare I say, ridiculous idioms

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Speaker 1: and figures of speech, but we are not embarking on

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Speaker 1: this journey alone, my friend. Oh no, we have joined

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Speaker 1: forces with a good friend of ours, friend of the show, podcaster, producer, musician,

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Speaker 1: just regular you know, all around jack of all trades,

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Speaker 1: renaissance man. You can't hear this, but I'm blushing right now,

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Speaker 1: really ridiculous historians. Uh, Rowan Nubi, thanks for coming on

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Speaker 1: the show man. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Rowan,

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Speaker 1: that's your real name, Yeah, it's it's another here. Nor

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Speaker 1: There has a fantastic podcast called pitches Um, where a

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Speaker 1: very is entertaining comedic people, smart people, funny people come

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Speaker 1: on and pitch pretty horrible ideas for products or or

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Speaker 1: films or books or really anything that that would require

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Speaker 1: a pitch to try and sell. Is that right? I

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Speaker 1: couldn't have said it better myself. Terrible ideas right there.

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Speaker 1: That's sometimes it's almost scary when we stumble upon a

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Speaker 1: good idea because we don't know what to do. There's

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Speaker 1: off we're like, oh, no, go you know, let's cut this.

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Speaker 1: You quickly copyrighted and we'll save this episode or something. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Rowan was kind enough to have me on as a

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Speaker 1: guest of a very early episode of the show UM,

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Speaker 1: and we kind of stumbled upon a reality show idea

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Speaker 1: for like masked performers, and it was more in the

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Speaker 1: DJ space. But then the other day we looked at

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Speaker 1: the TV and now there's the masked singer and behold

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Speaker 1: parallel thinking at its finest behold the name of the artist.

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Speaker 1: That's a good idea. It would be with zeros though, yeah, naturally,

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Speaker 1: And it's weird how quickly that that idea just evolved. Right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that we're we we explore often

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Speaker 1: here on Ridiculous History, will be the strange turns of

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Speaker 1: phrases that emerge, especially in English, but in all languages

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Speaker 1: over the unending game of telephone that we call history.

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Speaker 1: Right there, there's some weird ones. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you guys have ever seen those great compilation articles about

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Speaker 1: phrases in other languages that just don't translate, you know,

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Speaker 1: like things that make sense in Turkish, for instance, but

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Speaker 1: not English. It turns out that our language has a

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Speaker 1: ton of those, and and today we combined our forces

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Speaker 1: to explore a few that captivated us, and to do

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Speaker 1: our darndst since we're family show, to discover the origin

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Speaker 1: behind these phrases. Right, this is the right episode, it is,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's actually a repeatable model. I think

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Speaker 1: if this goes well, we could maybe do some more

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Speaker 1: of these. Um My, your friend, your dear friend Rowan's

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Speaker 1: dear friend, Frank um actually came up with a great

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Speaker 1: name for the segment or this type of show. We

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Speaker 1: could call it Idiomatic for the people, hey like as

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Speaker 1: a not to Georgia Boys R A M and their

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Speaker 1: seminal album Automatic for the People. I had a little

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Speaker 1: bit more of a self deprecating name, which would be

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Speaker 1: idiots on idioms. I think you know what. I like

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Speaker 1: both of those. I like both of those. I did

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Speaker 1: not prepare a name for this segment. For sure, there's

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Speaker 1: music and both of them. It's true, there we go.

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Speaker 1: But what so we decided to do this episode and

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Speaker 1: then we split apart and solo style, gave ourselves some

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Speaker 1: homework and one of the one of the conversations we

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Speaker 1: had was about whether we should let each other know

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Speaker 1: in advance which idioms were bringing in the table, or

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Speaker 1: whether we should surprise one another. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: mixed bag, right, it's a mixed bags. And I know

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Speaker 1: some of them, and then on some of them I

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Speaker 1: don't know, and I'm excited for for all of them. Actually,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, gentlemen, what do you say, who shall

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Speaker 1: be the first to cast their word hat into the

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Speaker 1: word ring? Well, Well, Ben, I mean you didn't. You

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Speaker 1: didn't let us know any of yours. So I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of on the edge of my seat. Do you mind

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Speaker 1: going first with one of your choices? Sure? Absolutely. There

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Speaker 1: is a phrase that is very common even nowadays, and

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Speaker 1: it is something that should be familiar, I think to

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Speaker 1: all native English speakers, regardless of the country in which

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Speaker 1: you live. It's something ruined that you and I have

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Speaker 1: said before in casual conversation. It is to butter someone up.

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Speaker 1: Oh stop buttering me up, Noel, You and I have

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Speaker 1: used this as well. Yeah, and it always kind of

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Speaker 1: weirds me out a little bit because it makes me

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Speaker 1: think of, you know, covering someone in delicious spread herble. Butter.

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Speaker 1: I mean if your friends with someone who's you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a dinner roll, or your friends with a turkey

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, I don't know, based me yeah please,

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Speaker 1: it's implying a very intimate form of physical contact. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it's strange because we we use this phrase and

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Speaker 1: we all know roughly what it means. Flattery, right, maybe

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Speaker 1: a little bit of somewhere between flattery and pandering. Right.

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Speaker 1: This is actually an ancient concept. I had no idea

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Speaker 1: because a lot of phrases, oddly enough, in English come

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Speaker 1: from things like the Bible, or translations of it, or

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Speaker 1: they come from wars. However, to butter me up has

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Speaker 1: has a couple of different proposed origins, and one of

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Speaker 1: the most solid or most widely accepted traces its origins

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Speaker 1: back to ancient India, which I did not see coming.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about g here, we're talking about g yes,

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Speaker 1: well done, clarified butter clarified g h e E. So

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Speaker 1: here's what would happen, guys. The idea is that in

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Speaker 1: ancient India, people would lob small balls of butter of

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Speaker 1: gee butter at statues of various gods while asking them

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Speaker 1: for favors. It's kind of an inducement, the same way

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Speaker 1: that in some other religions you would offer a favored

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Speaker 1: treat of a god as a tribute, So like cigars

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Speaker 1: or alcoholic beverages or uh coins, blood of an infant, food,

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Speaker 1: the skull of an enemy or a loved one. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of various So butter is largely

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Speaker 1: innocuous in this this idea, and in Tibet there's an

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Speaker 1: even older custom of crafting butter sculptures. When the new

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Speaker 1: year rolls around, the sculptures are viewed as a way

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Speaker 1: of bringing happiness and peace in the coming year. So

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Speaker 1: when we say that we're buttering someone up, we are

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Speaker 1: implying that either they were making them a statue every year,

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Speaker 1: or that we are giving them an offering in a

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Speaker 1: transactional way because we want their favor. So the meaning

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Speaker 1: of the meaning of this has become less blatant over time,

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Speaker 1: and now it just means being nice to someone. But

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Speaker 1: still I would argue with a soft implication, soft and

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Speaker 1: buttering that there is something expected in return. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's like paying tribute, right, I mean, because also I

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Speaker 1: would imagine we've done episodes in the past about how

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Speaker 1: butter was a very hot commodity, right Yeah, Marjarine versus

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Speaker 1: Butter was a big thing too, but I think you're

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Speaker 1: talking about an older period of time, right. Yeah. It

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Speaker 1: was also the one about the Protestant Reformation about how

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Speaker 1: those butter indulgences were such a thing because it really

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Speaker 1: pointed to the fact that, you know, the powers that

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Speaker 1: be didn't actually care about good works and being pious.

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Speaker 1: It was more just a way of like depriving people

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Speaker 1: of things and giving the rich what they wanted as

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Speaker 1: long as they could pay for it. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that it's butter has always been kind of a

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Speaker 1: divisive and tasty treat, even as recently. He's the eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventies right, because there was the law about how margarine

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Speaker 1: had to be dyed pink so that people would know

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Speaker 1: it was not true butter that. I think Wisconsin was

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Speaker 1: one of the last holdouts for that. But yes, that's it.

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Speaker 1: So butter me up the next time you want to

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Speaker 1: be one of those actually people in a conversation at

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Speaker 1: a cocktail party or a suaree of your choosing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: come armed with that information and butter someone up by saying,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that you already know the etymology of tow

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Speaker 1: butter someone up. But here it is, who would ever

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Speaker 1: do that? Nobody listens to the show or anyone sitting

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Speaker 1: in this room would ever do it? Actually would you? Anyone? Butters?

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Speaker 1: What now? And actually you would never go like, actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't do it on purpose. I've been

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Speaker 1: accused of doing the glasses up the nose thing, but

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Speaker 1: it's always with a you take it with a grain

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Speaker 1: of salt's or us slap at a ball of butter,

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Speaker 1: ball of butter, you know, I think it's interest thing though,

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Speaker 1: that you're really leaning into it being a mostly nice thing.

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Speaker 1: I take buttering someone up as definitely wanting something and

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Speaker 1: as manipulative. Kind of buttering someone up I always just

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Speaker 1: read as like, because when someone's like, why are you

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Speaker 1: buttering me up? You know that tone complicates? That's right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of whiz or this is not when I was.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe this is when we today. But it's

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Speaker 1: sort of akin to blowing smoke up someone's back, which

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Speaker 1: I wonder, since we can speculate on that one, I

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Speaker 1: wonder whether that has anything to do with uh Kellogg

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Speaker 1: and his overwhelming love of what he thought were medicinal enimals,

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Speaker 1: including tobacco smoke. Is that right? Oh? Yeah, he was

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Speaker 1: all about enemas, and I knew he was about animals,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know that as smoke was was in

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Speaker 1: the equation tobacco water. Weird true, and him of the state.

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Speaker 1: There we go, So what's what's next. We've cracked the

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Speaker 1: case on buttering someone up? Well, I had one question. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they make so you're saying they made statues in India

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Speaker 1: of Tibet, Yes, brother of their gods. I'm just searching

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Speaker 1: for a gey nsh joke somewhere in there. I guess

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Speaker 1: that's you found your way to really sorry for this

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Speaker 1: is what kind of We have been accused of absolute

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Speaker 1: dependence on dad jokes, So it's totally totally part I

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Speaker 1: have come to the right place. Yes, welcome home. Uh

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Speaker 1: we have. I would say we have been lauded for

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Speaker 1: the our attempts at um potato potato My friends, are

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Speaker 1: you saying that you get um like listeners writing YouTube

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Speaker 1: comments being like, guys, enough with the dead jokes? Okay,

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Speaker 1: well not on YouTube, but on iTunes. It is a

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Speaker 1: terrible place. Don't ever go. Don't ever read the iTunes.

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Speaker 1: I get more emails and tweets and stuff like. Uh,

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Speaker 1: life was hopeless until you guys did that run of puns.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. There's there's a light at the end of

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Speaker 1: the tunnel. Famous pun run. Oh I heard about that

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Speaker 1: for charity for two thousand and twelve. Famous pun run. Yes,

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Speaker 1: classic things will never be how you guys had no idea?

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Speaker 1: Well we had Luchador mask on. Oh, it's part of it.

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Speaker 1: That's sexy. Well it seems like a good idea of time,

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Speaker 1: and now it's tradition, and we're bound by that. We

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Speaker 1: are nothing if not fans of tradition. So same. So

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Speaker 1: what what's next? What's next? I don't know who wants

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Speaker 1: to go next? You want to go next to her? Ubi? Yeah? Okay.

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Speaker 1: The first one I'm going to talk about is nippet

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Speaker 1: in the bud, nip it in the button. Come on, folks,

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Speaker 1: we know what that means, or if we don't, we

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Speaker 1: at least have used it and thought that makes sense. Technically,

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Speaker 1: it's a horticultural metaphor, alluding to put it in a

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Speaker 1: stop to something uh, in its early stages, before it

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Speaker 1: becomes um you know negative it grows out of and

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Speaker 1: matask the size and takes over your entire garden. Right,

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Speaker 1: And it's derived from like the budding of plants and

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Speaker 1: the whole horticulture thing because you cut the top then

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Speaker 1: you can't grow into a beautiful fruit, that's right. So

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Speaker 1: when you say it, it sounds to me like whenever

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Speaker 1: people use that, it's almost like a bit of a

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Speaker 1: tongue in cheek way of trying to sound Southern, kind

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Speaker 1: of like it just nippet in the button. It is.

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Speaker 1: I feel very particularly southern. Actually, I remember first hearing

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Speaker 1: it um from Barney five and you know and the

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Speaker 1: Griffin the show. That's that's strange because I would also assume,

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Speaker 1: if I'm overthinking this, that in the original hortic cultural sense,

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Speaker 1: it's still it doesn't kill the plant, the roots. Still,

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Speaker 1: it does not kill the planet, just stops it before

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Speaker 1: it can reach it, you know, flowery climax. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: somebody is, for instance, say, uh, collecting way too many

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Speaker 1: what what's a weird thing for someone to collect tales? Tales?

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Speaker 1: They're collecting too many tales. T A I C A

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Speaker 1: I L s. Okay, they're collected too many tales and

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Speaker 1: they say, okay, fourteen is enough. It's getting weird. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna nip it in the bud. But that means they're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily going to get rid of the other fourteen.

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Speaker 1: That's they're just nipping their weird tail collection in the

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Speaker 1: bud before people start calling that person, you know, the

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Speaker 1: tail freak of of Cincinnati. Now it's interesting, there's actually

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Speaker 1: even another version of this that is nipp it in

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Speaker 1: the bloom um and it was first cited in a

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Speaker 1: work by Henry Chettel in a book called a Romance

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Speaker 1: book called Piers Plans seven years Apprenticeship. I'm guessing that's

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Speaker 1: Old English. It's p I e r S p l A.

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Speaker 1: I almost sounded French for a second, but then it's

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Speaker 1: got years spelled y E r e s, which is

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Speaker 1: very Canterbury tails if you ask me. And that's from

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Speaker 1: that doesn't quite add up to Old English, though, does it, guys.

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Speaker 1: I also found that this is one of those idioms

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Speaker 1: that people tend to mispronounce or misunderstand. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of people listen, Oh, I already know what do

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Speaker 1: they think it is? They think it's nippet in the butt?

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Speaker 1: Were going to say, yes, you're correct, which is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: What would what would nip it in the butt mean?

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Speaker 1: Does it? What would that mean? Do you give it

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Speaker 1: a little bite, a little tweak, yeah, a little love bite? Yeah? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So so I was actually wrong. It turns out Chettle

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Speaker 1: was actually a contemporary of Christopher Marlowe, who was like

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Speaker 1: a contemporary of William Shakespeare. So the Old English talk

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Speaker 1: kind of that that does hold true, but I believe

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Speaker 1: the Cannabary Tales were a little earlier than that. But

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Speaker 1: it does feel like right in that in line with that,

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Speaker 1: and that's where it first came from. Um, which is

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Speaker 1: I didn't know either. But I'm just I'm just googling

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Speaker 1: away right now as we talked about this, because you

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Speaker 1: have you got mom, I literally I literally didn't take

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Speaker 1: that note because I couldn't pronounce any of those words.

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Speaker 1: Just so you know, I also found that a well,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing, though, I just want you to to

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Speaker 1: be very comfortable. A big part of this show is

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Speaker 1: the fact that we don't try that hard to pronounce

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Speaker 1: things correctly other than wonderful yes, because we do have

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Speaker 1: We don't want to be vague about this. We want

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Speaker 1: to be specific. We we have a francophone and our

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Speaker 1: super producers. So he will he will handle a lot

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Speaker 1: of the French wars. It's also because of the French

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Speaker 1: are the most judge. Well occasionally, it's because occasionally he'll

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Speaker 1: do it with some reluctance because we have just spraying

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Speaker 1: it on him and said, hey, Casey, here's a paragraph

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Speaker 1: of French. Could you just translate this for us? But he,

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Speaker 1: you know, he he understands the game and he is

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Speaker 1: he has taken to it over time, and now he

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Speaker 1: doesn't even make a face anymore when we asked him

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Speaker 1: to help us pronounce a face on the inside. As

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Speaker 1: long as he is, he is a champion among that.

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Speaker 1: I also feel like it's largely about um, yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: totally right, like getting rid of the early stages of

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Speaker 1: something so hasn't become something worse. But usually it's about

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Speaker 1: a problem, right, or it's about like a person. It's like,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna nip this in the bug. We're gonna like

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Speaker 1: sort out this disagreement now before it gets out of

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Speaker 1: control and everything gets blown out of proportion. That seems

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Speaker 1: to be the way that I'm familiar with it being.

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Speaker 1: Now now I'm increasingly a fan, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: this rowin of uh nippt in the butt. I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna see, you've just been sitting over there. How long

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Speaker 1: I can pull that off in normal conversation? Sure, someone

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Speaker 1: they do, they do, and the glasses and they go, actually,

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Speaker 1: it's the butt. And I learned that from Rowan New

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Speaker 1: Beyond Ridiculous History. And I'll say, you know, I I

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Speaker 1: co founded and host that show, and then and they'll

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Speaker 1: say who are you? And I will, naturally, of course,

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Speaker 1: as I always do it in airport say my name

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Speaker 1: is Casey pegrum and the wage mayham across the terminal,

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Speaker 1: but um, well, nipping it in the butt aside. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is I think this is Uh. I'm been learning

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Speaker 1: a lot. I don't know about you guys. Know it's

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Speaker 1: every day is a shiny new penny, as our our

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Speaker 1: cohort Holly Fry likes to say, and every day is

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Speaker 1: a winding road, as Cheryl Crow once said. It's true

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Speaker 1: only once though. Wow, I don't know that that song

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Speaker 1: was was pretty hot? No, I mean she did it

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Speaker 1: in one tick? Do you think so? No? Is that true?

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Speaker 1: This is also as lies about Cheryl Crow podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: watch out, she listens to this show regular She is

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Speaker 1: also notoriously retigious, incredibly touchy, sorry, and pedantic. Cheryl, I,

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Speaker 1: I'm just rasing you. I'm a snipping you in the butt. Okay.

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Speaker 1: All of our itune interviews that are not favorable are

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Speaker 1: in fact written by Cheryl Crow. Yeah. She has like

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Speaker 1: a clip farm, like in somewhere in you know, Taiwan,

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Speaker 1: or it's just like fifty young children just writing mean

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Speaker 1: reviews about ridiculous history. It's where most of her royalties

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Speaker 1: have gone. She's put a lot of time into you

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Speaker 1: have to do some Most of your streams too, are

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Speaker 1: from her click farm. Yes, gosh, but you know you've

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Speaker 1: made it when you have like a true nemesis. And

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Speaker 1: what better nemesis to have than multi Grammy award winning

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Speaker 1: artist like CHERRYL. Crow. Yeah, you guys, you made it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it Actually we were all holding hands right now,

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Speaker 1: by the way, and we it might sound like we're joking,

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Speaker 1: but I want to be completely sincere. I would like

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Speaker 1: to confess something about my personal life. As a child,

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Speaker 1: I had a dream, a recurring dream, where the violinist

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Speaker 1: of Dave Matthews Band hated me somehow knew who I

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Speaker 1: was and despised me. And eventually I thought, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: maybe that's correct, maybe not just like I didn't think

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Speaker 1: specifically of a nemesis, but I thought, man, it would

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Speaker 1: be amazing if I had a celebrity, not not a huge,

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Speaker 1: huge celebrity, but who was a celebrity justknew me and

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Speaker 1: intensely and publicly didn't care for my whole But how

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Speaker 1: did this manifest use? Did he swat you with his bow?

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Speaker 1: In uh? In the dream, which was a recurring dream, again,

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Speaker 1: I would go to a concert, a Dave Matthews concerts

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Speaker 1: when they were pretty bad. You knew it was a

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Speaker 1: dream because you never go to a Dave Matthews concert.

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Speaker 1: Some dream logic there, my friends, and I was. I

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Speaker 1: was in the I was in the concert. I was

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Speaker 1: inevitably on a date of the person I was dating

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Speaker 1: would change because I had this dream over a number

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Speaker 1: of years. And then at some point in the concert,

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Speaker 1: when they paused between songs, the violinist of Dave Matthews

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Speaker 1: group would come up and say, I know Ben Bullen

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Speaker 1: is in the crowd tonight and say horrible, horrible stuff

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Speaker 1: about me. This is a true story. And I used

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Speaker 1: to think it meant that I was destined to go

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Speaker 1: to a Dave Matthews concert. But I have not done,

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Speaker 1: so I have an alternate theory. Um. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: I inexplicably no that the violin for Dave Matthews band's

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Speaker 1: name is Boyd Tinsley. Um and he passed away? Did

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Speaker 1: he did pass? Well? You know, I think he actually

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Speaker 1: just got kicked out of the band because it turns

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Speaker 1: out he was not a good guy. I think he

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Speaker 1: was accused of some some sexual harassment and um, and

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Speaker 1: he got fired. Oh man, I might, in some incredibly

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Speaker 1: useless way be capable of precognitive dreams. Possible. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think that that boyd Tinsley of the Dave of Matthews

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Speaker 1: band represented your inner insecurity has been and it manifested

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Speaker 1: itself plus front of God and everyone and and and

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Speaker 1: you had to contend with that night after night after

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Speaker 1: night like some kind of fresh personal Hell yeah. Plus

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Speaker 1: you went on. You were saying it was always dates

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Speaker 1: and that the girl changed every time. It's probably because

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Speaker 1: you were taking her to Dave Matthews comin. I never

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Speaker 1: saw you again? What are you doing? Uh? For the record,

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Speaker 1: I believe it was Leroy Moore who actually passed away.

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Speaker 1: And the clarinetis so so back to the subject of

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Thank you for joining me on that strange

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Speaker 1: dream journey. Guys, I hope I don't have that dream again.

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Speaker 1: Where how long has it been? It has been at

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Speaker 1: least at least a decade. Then you're cured. We say

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Speaker 1: that now there's a there's really only two outcomes here.

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Speaker 1: One that you start having that dream again horribly in abundance,

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Speaker 1: or you never have it again because you've finally gotten

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Speaker 1: this off your chest and now you're you're safe. It

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Speaker 1: would be the modern day equivalent of the violinist for

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Speaker 1: Dave Matthews band. I know they're still around, but would

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Speaker 1: it be John Mayor of Dave Matthews back there you go,

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Speaker 1: or anybody in cold Play aside from the main guy.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying like the equivalent meaning another violinist, another

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Speaker 1: sort of ancillary player in like a very like contemporary giant,

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Speaker 1: uber popular jam band who might possibly start appearing in

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Speaker 1: Ben's dreams and talking smack dawn. We may have cursed,

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Speaker 1: we may have cursed me. It may just be ERRYL. Crow.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say the guitarist for like Rage Against

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Speaker 1: the Machine or Slash, you know, one of those um

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Speaker 1: like vice presidents of the bands essentially were there as

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Speaker 1: famous but not really, you know, just all of them

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Speaker 1: will meet you like uh at the dinner table, will

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Speaker 1: be Slash, Keith Richards. You know, well it's not you, guys.

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Speaker 1: I will carry We will have your back, sir, We

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Speaker 1: will we will fight off this horde of trash talk

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Speaker 1: dream villains, weird bad band dream villains. But hey, we

399
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Speaker 1: should probably nip this in the but and here from

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Speaker 1: no is it my turn my turn pretty good. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that was pretty good. It was absolutely proper use of

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Speaker 1: that expression. And now I learned we actually no, no

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about where it comes from. So, um,

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Speaker 1: here's mine. The funny thing about a lot of these

405
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Speaker 1: phrases is out of context. Like you you get so

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Speaker 1: used to hearing them that you never even think about

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Speaker 1: what the words even really mean. Right, I think that's

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Speaker 1: a big part of this. So for me it was

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Speaker 1: basket case, right, So I we all know how basket

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Speaker 1: case is uses referring to someone that doesn't have their

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Speaker 1: their life together or that it's like having a crisis

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Speaker 1: or whatever he's saying, or you can say it about yourself.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I'm such a basket case today. I'm

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Speaker 1: just nothing's going right for me, disorganized. But more specifically,

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Speaker 1: it's like more of having like a bit of a

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Speaker 1: mental health break down. I think we can all remember

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Speaker 1: the the seminal. I've been using that word a lot

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Speaker 1: in this episode today, but I'm gonna keep rolling with it.

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Speaker 1: Um nineteen nineties Green Day song basket Case, where he

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Speaker 1: talks about how you know, he gives himself the creeps

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Speaker 1: his mind plays tricks on him. He's cracking up. He

422
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Speaker 1: thinks he's had enough. He's paranoid, or he might just

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Speaker 1: be stoned. Um, but he's having a hard time, Billy

424
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: Joe Armstrong in his faux British accent, he's having a

425
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: really hard times. He has just yeah, he really has.

426
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: So here's the problem that I had when I started

427
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: really thinking about before doing the research about basket case.

428
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: I think of the word case, and I think of

429
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: it as like a like a suitcase. So I'm like,

430
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: but isn't a basket already a case for things? It's

431
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: sort of a wicker case, right, it's a basket, it's

432
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: kind of machine. So when I thought it's it's a

433
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: little redundant. But so I thought, maybe it just meant

434
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: a useless thing or a redundant, silly, ridiculous thing, like

435
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: he needs a case for a basket. A baskets already

436
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: its own case, like having a bag for a bag.

437
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: It's a waste. It turns out nothing to do with

438
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: any of that, Absolutely nothing to do with any of that. Um.

439
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: The origins of the term basket case date back to

440
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: UH nineteen nineteen during World War One, and it was

441
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: um a term that was used to describe a particularly

442
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: brutal type of wound or series of wounds experienced by soldiers,

443
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: the the dreaded quadruple amputation, the quadruple amputation. So you've

444
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: lost your arms and your legs and are therefore in

445
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: need of being carried around in a basket. Therefore, you

446
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: are a basket case. Um. And it of course is

447
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: morphed over time, and we'll get to that. But here's

448
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: the thing. It actually has been consistently um denied by

449
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: army officials that there ever were any basket cases. So

450
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: here's here's here's the thing in World War One. Well,

451
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and it goes on. So the Surgeon General of the

452
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: Army um uh. In nineteen nineteen, the United States Surgeon

453
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: General said that there were no foundation for any of

454
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,959
Speaker 1: the stories, um that have been circulated, because this term

455
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: kind of had been making the rounds. And he uses

456
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: the term basket case to describe a thing that he

457
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: says doesn't exist. So he acknowledges the term in its existence.

458
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: But he says, but there there are no such cases

459
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: as as would be required to be carried in baskets. Right, So, um,

460
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: it's a paradox. It's a bit of a paradox. But

461
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: then you know, we've got World War Two and the

462
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: term kind of stuck around in the zeitgeist. And yet

463
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: again Surgeon General in nineteen forty four says, quote, there

464
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: is nothing to rumors of so called basket cases and

465
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: then goes on to say cases of men with both

466
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: arms and legs amputated. Um. So here's the interesting part.

467
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: Apparently there was a case of a Canadian soldier that

468
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: is pretty well documented who did experience quadruple amputations, but

469
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: he actually went on to lead a very productive life,

470
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 1: and he was fitted with prosthetic legs and even um

471
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: had a prosthetic arm um fitted to him that allowed

472
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: him to be able to write and lived a very

473
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: normal and productive life. And this comes from a fantastic

474
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: article on grammar phobia dot com that refers to the

475
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: basket case myth um. So obviously the term evolved over

476
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: time and became much more of an expression referring to

477
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: mental health and someone who, as we say at the top,

478
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 1: it's experiencing trauma or anxiety or you know, having some

479
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: kind of breakdown. Right. So, after World War Two, the

480
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: term stop being used to refer to these kind of

481
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: imaginary basket cases, because there was really no proof of

482
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: them ever having existed. But considering I don't know, Ben,

483
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: you're you're a bit of a war historian yourself in

484
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: terms of your interests, can't you imagine that there must

485
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: have been at least a handful of cases where someone

486
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: had been injured so badly by explosions that they may

487
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: have had to have and it doesn't seem a little fishy.

488
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: This official line was like, this never happened. Well, here's

489
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: the grizzly thing. It probably did happen, but people's odds

490
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: of surviving much lower. That's right, that's why the Canadian

491
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: case was noteworthy. That's a good point. But that's an

492
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: extraordinary story, man, Yeah it is. And then then somehow

493
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: it just kind of like things do um evolved to

494
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: a completely different meaning entirely because of the fact that

495
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: these cases didn't exist, But the term was still floating around,

496
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: and that zite guys people kind of start it, adapting

497
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: it and referring to people that didn't have their act together.

498
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: But then it's still it's still used today. And the

499
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: interesting thing is, obviously is a little bit of a

500
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: in poor taste kind of term. No matter how you

501
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: use it, it's a pejorative, especially if you're talking about

502
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: any person with a disability, and then when you apply

503
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: it to somebody that's having trouble psychologically, that's also not

504
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: very nice. So it's actually become more instyled to use

505
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: it to refer to things and nations as opposed to people.

506
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: And there's a really interesting article in the Guardian, Um

507
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: I think it was a letter to the editor and

508
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: it's called basket case the case against and it talks

509
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: about how it is just lazy writing, um, and it

510
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 1: should not be used and that then it goes in

511
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: sights how often it is used. So apparently, Um, the

512
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: Sun in the UK thinks that Greece, Zimbabwe and Spain

513
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: are basket cases and that Prince William could have been one,

514
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: but then he married Kate Middleton's so now he's he's okay,

515
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: he's not a basket case. Um. And then you've got

516
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: the Times that believes grease in Argentina are basque cases.

517
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: Africa once was, but now isn't. They now refer to

518
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: it as a bread basket. And then um, they also

519
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: talk about particular governments that are basket cases. Companies to

520
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: companies that are basket cases. Um, and this this writer

521
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: makes the case that it's just bad writing and then

522
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't have any metaphorical power anymore, and to just

523
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: let it go. And I would be inclined to agree

524
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: in some aspect. They got that from George Orwell's Rules

525
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: of writing. He is the guy who famously said, never

526
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: use an idiom figure speech or phrase that you are

527
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: used to seeing in print. And uh, he broke that

528
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: rule often, just by the way. And this this commentary

529
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: was by a writer named David marsh Um and Ben.

530
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: As you said at the top of the podcast, war

531
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: often brings new idioms into circulation. And it makes sense

532
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: because you have people of different ethnicities mixing under times

533
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: of great duress, and you've got a lot of like

534
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: kind of phrases that co mingle and take on new

535
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: meaning and get adopted, you know, by different cultures. And Um,

536
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: I think we had a couple that we want to

537
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: just throw out real quick. Yeah, sure, sure. There's for instance,

538
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: boom docks, which now was meant to indicate a place

539
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, right. The boon docks originally

540
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: was a phrase in Tagalic in the Philippines and it

541
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: just been mountain or there's uh, it's another one, pip squeak, right,

542
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: that's one pip squeaks. An interesting one because that was

543
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: actually a very particular type of small German gun that

544
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: was used in trench warfare during World War One, and

545
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: then you have steaking of trench warfare. The trench coat

546
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: was very specifically one a garment that was worn originally

547
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: in trench warfare, so that was a thing they didn't

548
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: have a name for, and then they called it a

549
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: trench coat. Interesting. I mean, you call pip squeaks, Uh,

550
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: you refer to someone as a pip squeak if they're

551
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: kind of just a nerdy, precocious kid now or in

552
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: any way diminutive and not worthy of your respect. Right. Sure.

553
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: That reminded me of another one. Fleabag actually, as in

554
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: like a fleabag hotel. Oh I missed that phrase. Yeah,

555
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: first to uh, grimy and just unsuitable sleeping arrangements. You know,

556
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: the word comes from slang actually used by soldiers in

557
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: the trenches referring to their sleeping bags. So that would

558
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: have often been absolutely infested with fleas under these horrible conditions.

559
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: So you know, from awful circumstances sometimes come fun idioms, yes, yes,

560
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: and funds fun idioms idioms. Actually, we have tintenabulated that one, right, uh,

561
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: speaking of downtown Abbey did what did you say? Intenabulated?

562
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: So tintinabulation is one of my favorite examples of how

563
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: you can simply create a word out of more or

564
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: less whole cloth and believe. It was Edgar Allum Poe

565
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: who used who coined the term tintinabulation to mean the

566
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: sound of bells ringing. Whoa, yeah, just the sound of

567
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: ringing bells or the sound after a bell has been rung.

568
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: He just made it up. He just styled on it,

569
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: or as we've said before on this show, he curtified it.

570
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: This idea of bags fleabags, it's an excellent segue. I have.

571
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: I have one that will be familiar to you Knowlan,

572
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: to you Casey, and perhaps to you long time ridiculous

573
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: historians or fans of other shows. It is the phrase

574
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: to let the cat out of the bag or the

575
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: badger classic yes, yes, or in our case the badger. So,

576
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: going back to what you said earlier, know about how

577
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: it's strange that certain phrases can just feel normal because

578
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: of the context in which they occur. Let the cat

579
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: out of the bag is something that everyone who speaks

580
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: English typically understands. Right to reveal a secret of some sort, uh,

581
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: sometimes an unpleasant truth, sometimes a pleasant surprise. But when

582
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: you think about it, it's really strange, Like when's the

583
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: last time you walked around with a cat in a bag?

584
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: Or someone was like, hey, will you hold this bag

585
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: for me? To be careful? It has a kid full

586
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: of cats of cats, There's no time to explain. It

587
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: feels like a very old person, bad habit you. It

588
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: might stand from like a granny who was going through

589
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: serious episode of dementia and uh had a poter kiddy

590
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: cat in a bag, or simply refused to pay for

591
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: one of those cat carriers, right, and I'm not going

592
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: to pay for it, wastefars. I got this perfectly good bag,

593
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: I tend to h I tend to picture the bag

594
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: is being a pillow case and the act being much

595
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: more of like I'm hunting cats and I'm going to

596
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: put the cat in the bag and then I'm going

597
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: to hit the bag and drowning kittens or something like that. Yeah,

598
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 1: come mo style not good. Well, luckily it's quite possibly

599
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 1: not that dark. I have to take quite possibly. So

600
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: the first recorded use of this frame, it's positive the

601
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: cat got out of the bag. There we go. The

602
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: first recorded use of it comes from this book review

603
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: in seventeen sixty in London magazine and the reviewer is

604
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: complaining about this book that they've read, and they say,

605
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: we could have wished that the author had not let

606
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 1: the cat out of the bag. And so in this

607
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: context it seems like it still as a present day meaning,

608
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: which is that the author not spoiled a surprise or

609
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: secret in the book. But this was used other times

610
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: in print, and there are a few origin stories about

611
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: how it came about. I'll give you, guys the first

612
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: one and then tell you why I think it makes

613
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: no sense. Uh So, the first one is this idea

614
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: that goes all the way back to open air markets

615
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: in Britain and the concept of unscrupulous tradesmen or con artist.

616
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: The thing is that they would trade livestock right including pigs,

617
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: which were a big deal at the time, and people

618
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: would sometimes sell piglets in bags, or is the expression

619
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: goes pigs in a poke poke would be another rover bag,

620
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: not a blanket, not I don't blanket, they didn't get

621
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: and as delicious, not well, you know, teach their own.

622
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: But that's a corn dog. Actually yeah, I'm sorry, going, no,

623
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: that's great. Is that really a term? Man? It is

624
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: as a right now alright, tend to nebulate it. So

625
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: the idiom that's related to is when a pig has

626
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: offered open the poke, meaning that one should always check

627
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: and inspect what you have before you leave, after you

628
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: buy it. Don't buy some mystery thing in a bag

629
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: just because someone told you what it was. That concept

630
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: or figure speech dates back to at least the sixteenth century.

631
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: Forgot where an audio podcast? So everybody, I'm sort of

632
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 1: feutally gesturing with my thumb over my right shoulder for

633
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: some reason. That's where the SI audible. So we can

634
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: picture it now here we go. You can throw in

635
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: some sound effects too. You've saved the show. So the

636
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 1: idea is that these con artists would instead of giving

637
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: somebody a piglet sold in a bag, they would capture

638
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: and sell a much less valuable feral cat. This was

639
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: a profitable practice for the con artist, but either way,

640
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 1: the moment of the revelation. The origin of the phrase

641
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: in this story is uh that someone would get home

642
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: and they would open the bag, and this we can

643
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: only imagine incredibly irritated cat would burst forth and re havoc,

644
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, become an agent of chaos. But this doesn't

645
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: really make because even the largest cat is gonna weigh

646
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: less than a pig, right, true, right, like a I'm

647
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: not an expert piglet handler. It's not in my skill

648
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: set yet. Your cats are pretty big, they're almost piglets sized, think, Yeah,

649
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: they're sort of luxurious, furry, soft piglets. Yeah. Hey, and

650
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: I've seen some emaciated pigs out there too. So maybe

651
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: there's a n there's a sweet spot, there's a ven

652
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: diagram here, or maybe they made it a pig and

653
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 1: a cat. I'm just gonna leave it at that. Okay,

654
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: that rhymes. That was very doctor. That made it a

655
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: pig and a cat, and I'll leave it at that.

656
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: Effects So there's but there's the thing, all right, So

657
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: this doesn't really make sense because additionally, pigs and cats

658
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: make audibly different noises. We can only assume that they

659
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: would probably not be chilling in a bag, so we

660
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: would hear some squeeze, some inks, et cetera, and we

661
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: hear some loud hisses and meal and uh, you know,

662
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: that seems easy to differentiate. But there's the other idea

663
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: that it comes from a Spanish phrase, the Spanish equivalent

664
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: uh got por libre to give a cap for a hair,

665
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: because rabbits, sorry, h a r eat. Rabbits are commonly

666
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: eaten during the fourteen fifteenth century, cat and a rabbit

667
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: are most size, and it seems more plausible to pull

668
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: the switchery this way. But the third theory is that

669
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: sailors would get in trouble in the Royal Navy and

670
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: the Royal Navy would keep them in line with a

671
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: coda a cat of nine tails, and that this was

672
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: originally kept in a red sack that people could that

673
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: everybody was aware of, you know, kind of a warning

674
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 1: hanging out in public view. And then when someone is

675
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: going to be punished, the captain would order that they'd

676
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: be trotted out. Everybody in the ship has to join

677
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 1: on deck and then boom outcomes the red cloth bag

678
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: and then boom ou the cat of nine tails and

679
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: then shrinse and repeat. So that's a little more grizzly.

680
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: I'm also miming taking out at nails in a fact. Yeah,

681
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: that's interesting, Ben, because they both imply a negative thing

682
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 1: being released that can wreak some havoc when it's let

683
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: out into the world and one so they both kind

684
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: of hold true. I have one quick question, Ben, you

685
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: talked about the original let the Pig out of the

686
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: poke or whatever, was about examining a purchase you're going

687
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: to make and how it would be smart to do that.

688
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: I think I know where you're going. It's kind of

689
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: the opposite of looking a gift horse in the mouth, right,

690
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: because that's impolite. If you're like examining a horse's teeth

691
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: that was given to you as a gift, that's a

692
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: no no, even though it would be prudent. Maybe, you know,

693
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 1: even if a horse is a lot of responsibility, even

694
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: if it was a gift, I would want to make

695
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: sure I wasn't getting some kind of trash, you know,

696
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: diseased horse. Yeah, I want a horse that goes to

697
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: the dentist. Well, you can tell the age of the

698
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: wars its teeth is one of the one of the factors,

699
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: or just I don't want to sickly horse because they

700
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: don't have to dispose of the horse. I might get

701
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: close to the horse and become its pal to go

702
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: on adventures, and then all of a sudden the horse

703
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: drops dead, and then I'm left sad and alone the horse.

704
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: I want to take a stick my head all the

705
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: way in that mouth, so that that was it, and

706
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: not to kick a dead horse if you will, Okay,

707
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean if he was given away horses,

708
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: that's the thing. I want to be at that point

709
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: in my life where someone's like, hey man, I have

710
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: this horse and I thought of you. I don't know

711
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: what I would do with it, but it would definitely

712
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: be a well wow, thanks you do you also give

713
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: me a farm? Like it's like somebody giving you, like,

714
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: here's a field for you to cultivate a farm and

715
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: take care of and water. It's an obligations. Yeah, but

716
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: that's the whole new career. Yeah. The last thing about

717
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: this cat and the bag medium once you guys can

718
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: tell it went on a little bit of rabbit hole

719
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: on is the idea that it is a thing that

720
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: cannot be reversed. It is very difficult to get that

721
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: cat back in the bag, right, it's a Pandora's boxer,

722
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: Pandora's jar situation, Pandora's bag, Pandora's bag, thank you, Pandora's

723
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: basket past. So now oh we are now we are

724
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: armed with that, and I'm liking the I think it

725
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: took us in a weird animal direction. But I was

726
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: just captivated because I really wanted to know if there

727
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: had ever been, you know, some prominent myth or some

728
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 1: real life historical occurrence wherein someone was like, all right, guys,

729
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: I've got this bag. I think there's a cat in

730
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: it there with me. It's exactly well, what kind of

731
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: was I guess? Cat out of the bag? Everybody you

732
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: heard it here? First was the o G spoiler learnt U. Yeah,

733
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: that's the cool way of saying it now, but that's

734
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: out of the bag. No one likes to say that,

735
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, when you ruin the ending of six cents

736
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: cats all right, grandpa? More like the plots out of

737
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: the bag. Yeah, because that, guys, Bruce willis the whole time,

738
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 1: It's always he was Haley Joe Osmond Ember as well

739
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: as the whole time. I just gotta say it. I

740
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: saw an episode of Future Man. You guys, know that

741
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: what I thought you heard us about to ruin the

742
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: ending of sixth Cents, I just gotta say that, I

743
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: think that's past. The statute of limitationished this and other shows.

744
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 1: But still it's just wait, what were you going to say? Well,

745
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: Eli Joel Osmond is still acting. He was in Silicon Valley.

746
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: He looks very, very different. He looks he's a very

747
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: um and I don't mean this in disrespectful ways. He

748
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: still has the same facial features in the same arrangement,

749
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: but he's he's pretty big, but the face is just

750
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: kind of dropped in the middle of his head. Yeah,

751
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: he's I think he's really funny and and I really

752
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: a great guy. He's on Comedy Bang Bang a lot,

753
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: and he was on the Comedy Bank Bang TV show,

754
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: and they kind of played into that slightly odd look

755
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: because he plays a character called slow Joey. So I'm

756
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't that wasn't my idea, but you know,

757
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: he definitely has a sense of humor and absolutely, I

758
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 1: mean like him on Silicon Valley is a similar kind

759
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: of you know, hair brained character. Is he also kind

760
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: of a weird back in alien kind of debauched weird

761
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: Hollywood executie type guy who was always drugging and boozing

762
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: and womanizing. Did I make that up? Um? It's kind of.

763
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: He seems more like dopey and brought out of bush tail,

764
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to the other guy who's like that, who's like,

765
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: really maniacal. I think characters characters. Well, yeah, Haley, Joe,

766
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: if you if you're listening, is he on Future Man?

767
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: Is that Future Man? H he is without spoiling thing.

768
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: He's also unhinged in Future Man. I was just watching

769
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 1: a surprise because he didn't believe it was him at first.

770
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: I've never seen it. You know, it's worth your time.

771
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: It's it's it's I'll watch it in the Future Man.

772
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: All right, we'll let the cat out of the back

773
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,399
Speaker 1: rowan newby. What else do you have for us? Hey?

774
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: You know both of you two. I like the cut

775
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: of y'all's jib. That's true. This jib right here, that jip,

776
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 1: this whole thing. Huh the jib over there too. I stay, Jim,

777
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: and I see it. You guys have heard this probably

778
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: kind of, you can assume. Mainly on The Sopranos. Mainly

779
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: on The Sopranos, for sure. It's actually from maritime traditions.

780
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: It's as old as like seventeenth century, eighteenth century. It's

781
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: referencing the triangular shaped sail known as the jib. Some

782
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 1: ships actually have more than one jib sail. They all

783
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: have their own style. And I guess that's kind of

784
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: refers to when you say I like the cut of

785
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: your jib. It's like, oh, like, I like like your style. Man,

786
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: I like your vibe, you know. So this is actually

787
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: the jib, is the fabric, the exactly. Oh and another thing,

788
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: And I don't know if this was verified or any

789
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: but I read that because these jib sales look vaguely

790
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: like a nose, it could refer very specifically to someone's

791
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: facial features. Oh, which is pretty interesting. Yeah, that's a

792
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: very specific compliment to give someone. I feel like you

793
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: have to know someone pretty well for sure to be like, hey, hey,

794
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: Jimmy Duranty, I like the cut of your jib. You know,

795
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: that's a joke for the elders. Everyone google Jimmy. Come on,

796
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: doesn't he say like something to make that up? Isn't

797
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: as big nose isn't also quite red and largely probably

798
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: due to burst blood vessels from alcoholism, balbous from the

799
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: gin face for days. That makes sense. So wait, what

800
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 1: is a jib sale? Though we know it's a sale,

801
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: is it? You said they have multiple ones? Well, it's

802
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: a I'm assuming affiliated with the mass of the boat.

803
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: So which is the big wooden middle part that then vs.

804
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: The jib sale? I don't quote me on that, but

805
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: this is what I took in when I was scrambling

806
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: to learn the animalogy of chip and I'm surprised to

807
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: learn that there's this um nasal illusion. Now I'm gonna

808
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 1: start calling people's noses jibs for sure. Keep you jib cleaning,

809
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: keep a jim clean man what you mean? So with noses,

810
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: don't don't be putting your jib and other people's you know, jibs.

811
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: Remember jib jab. Okay, we're going off tangent now. I'm

812
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: just going to replace the word knows with jib every

813
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: time I every time the opportunity presents this along with

814
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: nippet in the butt is setting up my next Oh

815
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: my god, butts and noses, and then that's that's a

816
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: perfect setup for a brown nose. Of course, think about that,

817
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: which is kind of one that I thought about earlier

818
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: as well. That's disgusting. Fair enough, that's discussed. That's disgusting.

819
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: I feel like that because it refers to the pooh

820
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: on the nose because you're kissing someone's booty so hard. Well,

821
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, the rest is obvious. But and that's why

822
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: I didn't actually choose that one, because it seems obvious. Well,

823
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 1: there's someone maybe who has a who's just having a

824
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: the more you know moment right now Brown right the

825
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: light bulb over their head just bursts. They're like, oh, okay,

826
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: I get it. Brown knows god it, Pope. I want

827
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: to check in real quick, Casey or any of these

828
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: surprising you so far? Uh? I hate to be the

829
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: un actually guy, but no, not well hold on, Casey,

830
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: you didn't know the history of all these. You assumed

831
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: this is an educational program. This is true, this is true. Well, well,

832
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: we still luckily have one more shot to uh surprised

833
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: and unactually are again very beloved super un Actually is

834
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: that cannot be our next podcast? Actually it's a good idea, Noel,

835
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 1: are our hopes for this episode today rest with you?

836
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: My friends? Man, that's a lot of pressure, um and

837
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 1: I'm struggling right now, because our our internet has has

838
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 1: just abandoned me. It is forsaken me. We don't use

839
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: that while recording. That is a line. This is straight

840
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: from our endless Jeopardy brains. Well, that's that's very very nice,

841
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: very nice of you to think that Rowan newbie. But

842
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: but at last that is not the case. Although to

843
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: be fair, Ben and are the only ones with laptop

844
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: is chines in front of us right now. Rowan is

845
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: pure pen and paper. I am a moral paper and brains.

846
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: That's what rowing is. Doom doom, doom doom. Is that

847
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: how you doing? Ice Ice baby? Or under pressure? You

848
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: know what? Man, Let's be honest, Vanilla Ice ripped it off.

849
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: They're just kind of intertwined at this point, right at

850
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: that great moment that v H one uh whatever the

851
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: show was where he tries to explain music. Yeah, yeah,

852
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: where he tries to explain their different because he says

853
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: there's a yeah, this is like an extra an extralip whatever.

854
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: Well you guys, I I'm I'm ready. I'm ready to

855
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: take on this and it's actually really serendipitous. Um I

856
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: I did know what our pal Rowan was gonna do.

857
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: Um with the cut of the jim and all. But

858
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: I didn't actually do any research into it. I had

859
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: no idea that it was a nautical term. As it

860
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: turns out, mine is also a nautical term um, and

861
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: it involves not the jib or the sale itself. And

862
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,959
Speaker 1: it's actually really interesting because I think that these things

863
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,480
Speaker 1: sound like they should be flipped. Mine is three sheets

864
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: to the wind. And, as it turns out, in nautical parlance,

865
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: which you would think would be the sale, not so

866
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: it's the line that tethers the sale interesting right and

867
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 1: comandwadays to mean someone who is very inebriated and very inereate.

868
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: I I didn't know this one at all. I didn't

869
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 1: even have any inkling. It's one of those ones that

870
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: I just chose blindly to use um. And sometimes I

871
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: would even go so far as to say more than

872
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 1: three sheets, you know sheets, your seven sheets, your ten sheets,

873
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: fifteen sheets to the wind, target, linen department to the

874
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: wind exactly, your blotto exactly. Whatever. Yeah. So, uh, Rowan,

875
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: you may not have I don't know how much of

876
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: a stand fast fan riticularly story you are, but we

877
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: did do an episode where we kind of listed through

878
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin's expressions for being drunk, and ben just listed

879
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: a few. They're great, um, but one that Benjamin Franklin

880
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: did not come up with is three sheets to the

881
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: wind um And this is this is so crazy to

882
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: me because yeah, these were not uh sheets or sales

883
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: as you might think. There wasn't even wind. Well there

884
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: there there hopefully was the ship's not gonna go. They

885
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: were lines, ropes, sometimes they were chains, and they're the

886
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: things if you've ever been on a sailboat or a

887
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 1: sloop of some sort of perhaps a barge. No barges

888
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: don't have sails, I don't know. I'm not a I'm

889
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: a I'm a bit of it. I'm I'm a land lover.

890
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: The call that, um, Yeah, they're fixed to the bottom

891
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: corners of the sails to hold them in place that

892
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: they catch the wind. And again, if there's any sailor

893
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: types out there, forgive my ignorance. I'm doing the best

894
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: I can. But I believe a sail would require three

895
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: sheets to be properly fastened and uh and you know,

896
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: tightened so that you could actually manipulate it and put

897
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: it um, you know, in the direction of the wind,

898
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: so it catches the wind. So but again, this to

899
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: the wind business doesn't even refer to the wind that's

900
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: catching the sails. It refers to the sheets or the

901
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: lines being or in the wind. You know, like if

902
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: their ship be steered, it can't be steered. Not only that,

903
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: it's gonna be erratic because the sale is there and

904
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: it's catching some of the wind, but it's flopping around

905
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: like crazy, and so in sort of resembling a drunk

906
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: person stumbling yeah, so um. They're actually variations on this, right,

907
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 1: So if you're one sheet to the wind, you're gonna

908
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 1: not be quite as tight. You're gonna have a little

909
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 1: bit of a little a little bit of a little

910
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: tipsy y's right. Um. And then if you've got two sheets,

911
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: you're kind of in the middle there. And if you've

912
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: got three sheets, you're not looking good. You're embarrassing yourself. Dad,

913
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: go home, your boat has sprung a leak. If you

914
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 1: do not get an uber boat home, that's the thing,

915
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: and if it's not, it should be Also side note,

916
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 1: in the time of f. Scott Fitzgerald, the phrase tight

917
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: was used to mean getting drunk. That's right, that's right, Yeah,

918
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: that is a that is a very very good edition there,

919
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: ben Um. So it's interesting because this expression goes back

920
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: to in a book by Pierce Egan called Real Life

921
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: in London, and it um, this is out of context.

922
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: And I'm getting this from an article on phrases dot

923
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: org dot uk, which is fantastic for these etymological explorations. Um.

924
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: And the quote that they cite out of context is fantastic.

925
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: Old waxen bristles is about three sheets in the wind.

926
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: It was old wax and I guess old waxen bristles. Everybody.

927
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: Everybody was old wax and bristol waxen like it three

928
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: sheets in the winds, not to the winds, yeah, exactly,

929
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 1: and then then it got changed to to the wind

930
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: and yeah. And then in this article as well, they

931
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: talked about the scale of drunkenness that sailors had, where

932
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: like I said before, three sheets was completely stupefied, falling

933
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: over yourself, drunk, your tipsy, like you said, rowan was

934
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: one sheet and then or a sheet in the wind's eye.

935
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: And actually they don't list to two sheets, but surely

936
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: two sheets was the middle ground has to be right,

937
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: because that's going to give you some stability on that sale,

938
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: but not enough. And they even have another example using

939
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: a windmill, like a Dutch windmill, which would have fours.

940
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: They would have four. Um, what do you call it turbans? No,

941
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: that's not one wing on a turban is not a turban.

942
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: The turbine, well they some some people in the engineering

943
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: community pronounced it turban. Oh, I know it's true. I

944
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: only know this because I used to work probably radio,

945
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: and I covered the nuclear industry and I would interview

946
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: these engineering nuclear nerds and they would call them turbans

947
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: and the actually and I'm doing it. I'm actually right

948
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: now and I'm pro nerds. So I love nerds, and

949
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: I'm saying that sort of that is not what I'm

950
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: doing at all. Ben, I love nerds. I there are

951
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: some Okay, you guys are really making me no, no,

952
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: but here you go. So, yeah, if you have four

953
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: of these, um, you know, let's call them, what do

954
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: you call one thing in a propeller one part of

955
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: a propelled blades blade, I am not doing Yeah. So

956
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: if you have like, um, four of them, right, so

957
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: if one of them is out of commission, he got three,

958
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: that's going to be a very unstable turban. Right, I mean,

959
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: so three sheets to the wind anyway, so there's more

960
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: um it actually uh carries on in literary history um

961
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: in a novel called The Fisher's Daughter by a writer

962
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: named Katherine Ward. And here's another quote from this phrases

963
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: dot Org article. From this work, Wolf replenished his glass

964
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: at the request of Mr Blust, who, instead of being

965
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: one sheet in the wind, was likely to get to

966
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: three before he took his departure. Right, that makes sense. Beautiful,

967
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: so really beautiful. Express it is a beautiful question. At

968
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: this point, we're still three sheets in the wind. And

969
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: then we have the modern three sheets to the wind

970
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 1: that comes in a book called The Journal of Reverend

971
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: Francis Asbury that talks about this gentleman's travels through Kentucky

972
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: through Kentucky in the United States. But yet this is

973
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: an Englishman and the writer um also English. And this

974
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: is the line from this work. The tavern keepers were

975
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: kind and polite, as Southern folks should be, and as

976
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: Southern folks ought not to be. They were sometimes two

977
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: sheets in the wind. Oh that liquid fire. Not to

978
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: cryp too hard from the incredible phrases dot org article,

979
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 1: But it goes on to talk about how Robert Louis

980
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: Stevenson um really popularized this phrase for a wider audience,

981
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: because obviously Treasure Island was like a blockbuster of a novel,

982
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: gave us all kinds of pirate parlance, right like shivermy

983
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: timbers and talking about searching for treasure. You got your

984
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: ex that marks the spot. The image of a pirate

985
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: with a peg leg and a parrot, you know that

986
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: whole all that image, all of that, all that imagery

987
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: comes from from Robert Louis Stevenson. And the quote that

988
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: he uses with this phrase, uh, goes back to the

989
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,959
Speaker 1: old way, which is maybe you think we are all

990
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: a sheet in the wind's eye, but I tell you

991
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: I was sober, and there's a lot of great pirate

992
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: slang in Treasure Island. I think there are also some

993
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 1: arguments about how much of that was Stevenson going this

994
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: is what I think of pirate will sound like, and

995
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: how much of it was actual pirate speech. And you

996
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: know what, we could do a great piece on genuine

997
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: pirate speech, because a lot of these guys tended to

998
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: be polyglots, you know, they met so many other people.

999
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: But before we continue, Casey could we have a drumroll, please,

1000
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: did null save the day? Was this a phrase that

1001
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: you were unaware of origin? Story wise? Yes, Casey on

1002
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: the case I did it. Who just kidding, guys, just kidding.

1003
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: We all did it. Everyone brought amazing stuff to the table.

1004
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Rowan, Nubi of Pitches podcast fame.

1005
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: Check it out. I think it's on SoundCloud now but

1006
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 1: soon if on iTunes and all the places you find

1007
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,919
Speaker 1: podcast past at Pitches podcast. Not for the kiddos, it's

1008
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: uh it it gets, it gets pretty b blue at times.

1009
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: It gets a little blue. Little well, if you want

1010
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: your kids to have an accelerated learning course in the

1011
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: ways off, yeah, it's not that bad. You guys, well,

1012
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: if you like the cut of ridiculous histories, Jim, we

1013
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,439
Speaker 1: imagine that you uh, you will go bananas. We didn't

1014
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: look at what that means, but you will go pitches.

1015
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: So check it out. As Neal said, don't hesitate to

1016
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: get the to the internet. In the meantime. Yeah, thanks

1017
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: so much for coming browin. It's really been a pleasure.

1018
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure here too. It's always a pleasure

1019
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: hanging out Rowan. Just like me and Ben, we we

1020
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: always say this. I think we say it so much

1021
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: people might think we're not telling the truth, but I

1022
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: swear we are in fact all friends outside of the

1023
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: show and we hang out. And it was nice to

1024
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 1: have you enter the shipping container. Uh the podcast sphere

1025
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: UM with with Ridiculous History. Yeah, I'd actually like to

1026
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: get a picture of you Rowan, if you're comfortable with

1027
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: that's been we could have faced to a name and

1028
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: we'll pop it up on my Instagram, which is at

1029
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: ben Bowling. Maybe we'll get our ridiculous history folks to

1030
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 1: retweet it or I'm sorry re gramm it is that

1031
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: a thing? Don't you have has a separate app for that.

1032
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: It's a really annoying most that it's a weird one.

1033
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm really into the stories, um. I think it's a

1034
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: lot of fun. That's really the closest thing you can

1035
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: do to re gramming stuff. Put them on those stories.

1036
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: You can check me out at Embryonic Insider. You can

1037
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: check rowing out at Pitches podcast. On the instagram, um,

1038
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: you can check out Ridiculous History at Ridiculous History UM. Also,

1039
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: if you want to hang out with your fellow ridiculous historians,

1040
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: you can do that on our Facebook group, which is

1041
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: the Ridiculous Historians. You just have to name one of

1042
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: our names, or Casey's name, or you know, or make

1043
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: us laugh. Oh name dropping. That's another one we don't

1044
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: talk about. That's very true. That can probably figure out

1045
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: where that one goes big. Thanks to super producer Casey

1046
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: Pegram and Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Yes, Thanks

1047
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: as always to our research associate team. Thanks very much

1048
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 1: to you guys out there listening in podcast land. This

1049
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: episode is over, but the story of strange phrases continues.

1050
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: When you are reaching out to us, let us know

1051
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: what what phrase always sounded very strange to you, or

1052
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: the origin story of something, and let us know if

1053
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: you want to see idiots on idioms or idiomatic for

1054
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: the people um rearing its head once again, idiom. There

1055
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: you go in the Ridiculous his story in a sphere,

1056
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: There we go. We'll see you next time, folks. Sick

1057
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: four