1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKF Daily with Meet 2 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, there is right now a movement of sorts 4 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: that is taking place, and I use the word movement 5 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: because I really do pray that it isn't just a moment. 6 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: And what I'm referring to for this episode is the 7 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: movement around workers' rights, the recognition that I think workers 8 00:00:53,240 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: across industries, across the country are realizing about their day 9 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: to day productivity not aligning with the return that they're 10 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: getting for their blood, sweat and tears on the job. Sure, 11 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: there are more jobs that are more laborious than others, 12 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: ones that during the pandemic were deemed as essential, which 13 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: just meant that other more privileged, more resourced people got 14 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: to stay at home. But as time is faded from 15 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: that quarantine moment, it seems as if we have forgotten 16 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 1: about workers once again. And I say that believing that 17 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: we all have good intentions right of tipping service workers, 18 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: of treating people with kindness and empathy. But there is 19 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: a detachment that takes place right and there's a chasm 20 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: that I think that is being built between the haves 21 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: and the have nots in this country, and there are 22 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: multiple levels. And I get into a conversation today with 23 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: Alexandria Revenel, who is a professor at UNC and author 24 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: of the book Side Hustle Safety Net, and you know, 25 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: in our conversation, Alexandria talks about this idea that we 26 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: have that is an old narrative in our mind about 27 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: the service worker around if you take you back in 28 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: your particular state or city, around the fight for fifteen 29 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: right to raise the minimum wage. And there's always been 30 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: this idea that why does the minimum wage need to 31 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: be raised because the peace people that are working in 32 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: low wage jobs are largely high schoolers, right that live 33 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: at home with their families, and these are their summer 34 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: jobs or holiday jobs. The reality is that is not 35 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: the case, right, that a lot of low wage workers 36 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: has families, need health insurance, need time off to be 37 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: able to go to the doctors, to care for themselves, 38 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: to care for others. But the way in the stories, 39 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: the way that we've thought about this and the stories 40 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: that the media has upheld with regard to low wage 41 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: workers needs to be disrupted, you know, And I think 42 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: about how grateful we were right to those delivery people 43 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: so that we could stay inside as they brought us 44 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: our packages and our food and allowed us to continue functioning. 45 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: Why they were literally on the front lines of the pandemic. 46 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: I think about all of the workers who are unable 47 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: right to do their work from home remotely, and I 48 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: think that during that time and now is many people 49 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 1: are still working from home, myself included. You know, whether 50 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: or not that's full time, part or part of the week, 51 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: are able to be at home. There are millions of 52 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: people whose jobs require them to be in person, and frankly, 53 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: in our larger ecosystem, we need them to be in person. 54 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that then those people are worth 55 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: less and shouldn't be paid and provided with the opportunities 56 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: to live full, whole, complete lives. So right now we're 57 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: witness saying what I hope is a movement, a worker's 58 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: movement that has seen CEOs and shareholders receive extraordinary kickbacks, 59 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: build extraordinary wealth in the last several years. Why they 60 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: haven't seen their wages increase at all. And Alexandria, in 61 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: her book and in this conversation gets into the bit 62 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: of reprieve right that the Cares Act and other policies 63 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: that were put forward during the height of COVID that 64 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: gave people breathing room, that showed us the actual function 65 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: of government is to be able to use our tax 66 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: dollars to actually help each other and ourselves, not just 67 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: put bills into defense. We get into a conversation about 68 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: opening up around basic income and what that could potentially 69 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: look like. What we thought was this far off, you know, 70 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: leftist idea could actually transform how society functions. So coming 71 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: up next my conversation with Alexandria Revenel, author of Side 72 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: Hustle Safety Net. Folks, I am very excited to welcome 73 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: to OKF Daily for the very first time. UNC professor 74 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: and author of the book Side Hustle Safety Net, How 75 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: Vulnerable Workers Survive Precarious Times. Alexandria Ravenel, Let's start off 76 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,559 Speaker 1: with you know, every time that I talk with people 77 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: who focus on labor and focus on workers, I go 78 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: back to the beginning of the pandemic, Alexandria, and I 79 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: know that your book goes back way, you know, further 80 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: than that, you know, into the beginning of like of workers' 81 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: rights and these things. But I go back to the 82 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic, when we were all applauding essential workers, 83 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: the delivery people that were dropping off our sixty five 84 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: Amazon packages a day, the delivery folks that were dropping 85 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: off our food so that we could stay home, those 86 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: of us that were privileged enough to do so. I 87 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: think it was the only time when I believe that 88 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: we were cognizant of those people who were putting their 89 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: lives on the line so that the rest of us 90 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: could be healthy, somewhat at peace at home, right, Alexandria. 91 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: That lasted for a about a hot five minutes. 92 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: Yes, it did, and then we went right back into 93 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: ignoring those workers and not tipping them or tip baiting them, 94 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: and to the companies continuing to exploit these workers. 95 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: You know. And the other day, I live in New York, right, 96 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: and there is legislation that is being pushed right now 97 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: to make the e bikes that all of the delivery 98 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: and people who don't know in New York City, our 99 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: delivery drivers do not drive cars. So when it is winter, 100 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: when it is you know, twenty degrees outside, they are 101 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: on bicycles or e bikes. And there's a legislation being 102 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: pushed right now to make those free because again they're 103 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: the ones paying for these bicycles so that they can 104 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: work right, and to make them safe because they also explode, 105 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: just killed and have killed people. So I say all 106 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: of this to kind of lay the context that like, 107 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: I don't understand how people who work can be anti worker, 108 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: and I just want to, you know, for you to 109 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: walk us through this kind of side hustle that we 110 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: have believed. I guess over the last several years that well, 111 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: you know, this is just extra money that these that 112 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: the drivers, the delivery folks that this that that are doing, 113 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: and so they don't really need protections because they got 114 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: protections in their quote unquote real jobs. So talk to 115 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: us about the lie of the side hustle gig economy 116 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: and what your book lays out for us. 117 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: Oh wow, Well, first of all, thank you so much 118 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: for having me. I'm so excited to get a chance 119 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: to talk about this. So, you know, in the US, 120 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: we are in a little bit of denial about who 121 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: our workers are and what their experiences are actually. Like, 122 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: you know, for years people have been like, oh, well 123 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: you don't need to pay the wage workers very much 124 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: because it's high school students. But in reality, we know 125 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: that about a third of minimum wage workers actually are 126 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 2: adults with families. Right, Like, this is not just the 127 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: days of that just being a high schooler's job that 128 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: is done. And especially when it comes to these gig workers, 129 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: you know, I blame put some of the blame on 130 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: these platforms. For years, they've talked about, oh, the flexibility, 131 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: make your be your own boss, make your own salary, 132 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: and people have really bit into that, like, oh, yeah, 133 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: it's a side hustle, it's something else. But they don't 134 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: realize is a lot of times on these platforms, the 135 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: only way you can make any money is if you 136 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 2: actually devote all of your time to doing this. You know, 137 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: most of those delivery workers, whether they are on these 138 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: e bikes in New York or they're in cars and 139 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: their places, they spend a lot of their time sitting 140 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: around waiting for gigs. I'm in New York, I walk 141 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: through the parks and I see these collections of they're 142 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 2: generally young men sitting there waiting or rides and. 143 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 3: Hopefully they're grabbing some food. 144 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: And you can see when the dinner or lunch rush starts, 145 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 2: they all, you know, their phones start pinging and they 146 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: are off on these e bikes and they are really 147 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: exposed to the elements. You know, the ones that are 148 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: on e bikes you often see like the pouches around 149 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: the handlebars and like garbage bags to try and protect 150 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: their hands as they're out and about, and they're not 151 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: always wearing helmets, and you know, it's the bikes are 152 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 2: getting stolen, and oftentimes even those bikes, they are paying 153 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: to rent them, or they've paid for them out of 154 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: their own pocket. 155 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 3: And it's just more and more money coming. 156 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: Right out of out of their earnings, which they're already 157 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: getting sort of you know, hand overhand, you know. 158 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: And it's it's so interesting because I think that you know, 159 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: when we had our attention focused right, and that was 160 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, for lack of a better term, the beauty 161 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: of the pandemic for those of us again that were 162 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: privileged enough to slow down and to be indoors, is 163 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: to kind of see this larger ecosystem Alexandria that we 164 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: exist inside of that we don't really pay attention to. 165 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: That in order for us to be able to live 166 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: and survive, we need other people. We need other people 167 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: that are able to do the jobs that either we 168 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: don't have the time to do or frankly don't want 169 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: to do, but have the resources to pay those people 170 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: out right. We never think, though, when I, for instance, 171 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: them going into the nail salon to go and get 172 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: my nails done every week, whether or not the tip 173 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: that I'm providing is actually going to that person, right 174 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: or a portion a larger portion is coming out of 175 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: their pocket. Anytime I'm in new cities and I'm getting 176 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: an uber or a lyft, I ask them about what 177 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: portion of the ride that they're actually taking home? Is 178 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: this the only job that you have? How long are 179 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: you out? How many rides do you get? What does 180 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: an average day bring in? Not because as I'm nosy, 181 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: I mean partly that, but because I genuinely am interested 182 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:12,719 Speaker 1: in how people survive in really expensive cities right without 183 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: any safety net at all? And so what do you 184 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: find one to be the biggest lie about the side 185 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: hustle that you want a myth that you want to bust. 186 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: But also why, Alexandria, is there such a damn disconnect 187 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: between and a growing disconnect right between the haves and 188 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: the have nots, and the have more and the have 189 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: you know, beyond more right, Like, there is just this 190 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: growing disconnect and I want to understand how you understand 191 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: it through your research. 192 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for asking that. So I think the biggest 193 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: myth is this idea of flexibility that you have to 194 00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: give up security, income security, job security in order to 195 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: have flexibility. You know, people who work for Corporate America, 196 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: they can go to the dentists in the middle of 197 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: the day, they can work early, they can work like 198 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: especially now, where you know they might spend half of 199 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: their week working remotely. We have flexibility. Companies make a 200 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 2: conscious decision to deny flexibility to their worst paid workers, 201 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: to their lowest status workers. And so you have these 202 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: gig platforms that come in and say, hey, we will 203 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: give you flexibility, but you're not gonna have any workplace protections. 204 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: You're not going to have a secure income. You're not 205 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: going to know how much you're getting made, how much 206 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: you're going to get paid, because even if you think 207 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: that the platforms are taking a certain percentage, sometimes they're 208 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: changing the percentage and they don't want to tell you that. 209 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: And so you see these workers that are like, well, 210 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: I can't get a sufficient number of hours. My paycheck 211 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: is stagnating, expenses are going up, Inflation is high, gas 212 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 2: prices are skyrocketing, and so they turn to these side 213 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: hustles because they view it as something they can sort of, 214 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: you know, put in here and there. But the reality 215 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: is that that work's not always available when you want it. 216 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: Let's say you want to do food delivery during so 217 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: called mother's hours, right, kids are in school nine two 218 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: nine until three, But in reality, there an't gonna be 219 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 2: whole lot of deliveries during those hours. And so even 220 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: when workers kind of have it's just like a back 221 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: of mind safety net that they can turn to gigwork, 222 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: it really isn't. And in terms of your question about inequality, 223 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: you know, I think I think we've seen a couple 224 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: of different things here. We've seen that the companies that 225 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: have W two workers are paying them more to be competitive, 226 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: They're giving them additional benefits, and we're seeing that this 227 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: sort of second tier of workers, at least in view 228 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: of the company's eyes, they're kind of that reserve labor 229 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: force in sociology terms, right. 230 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: They are there to kind. 231 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: Of bear the burden and to have their work sort 232 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: of subsidized. The wages of these typically middle class and 233 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: upper middle class professional workers, you know. 234 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: And it's really interesting because I think that when you 235 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: piece together the fact that a lot of people are 236 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: looking for these quote unquote side hustles, but not as 237 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: not in a way where it was to turn your 238 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: passion into your profession, right, because again I think that 239 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: this is another big misnomer, right, like, oh, I'm doing 240 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: this to turn my passion into my profession. Well, where 241 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: in reality, people are having to get two and three 242 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: jobs so that they can have ends meet, So they 243 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: have the one job that they may not like, but 244 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: that's the one that gives them health care, but it 245 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: doesn't give them flexibility or enough hours to be able 246 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: to make ends meet, pay rent, pay a mortgage, right, 247 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: more likely rent than a mortgage at this at this place. 248 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: And so I wonder when we're looking at this and 249 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: even like you would highlighted before the fight for fifteen 250 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: that happened in major cities, even my own parents, who 251 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: live in the suburbs of New York were and who 252 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: are arguably progressive, said to me, well, my mother is, 253 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: but he said to me, you know, why do people 254 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: need fifteen dollars an hour? When I was working as 255 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: a kid, I was making X, Y and Z, and 256 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: I said, because the lie which you aired out. But 257 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: I kind of want to go digging deep into this 258 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: because there's a narrative change that also needs to happen 259 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: around how we think about workers and who is working. 260 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: Is this idea that it is just kids that need 261 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: a summer job, just you know, young people that are 262 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: starting wow, when in fact I just saw recently that 263 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: there are a third of New Yorkers that are paying 264 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: fifty percent of their earnings to rent. 265 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 2: Yes, New Yorkers are famously rent poor. 266 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,479 Speaker 3: They spend way too much of their money, way too 267 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 3: much of. 268 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: Their income on rent because housing prices here are so expensive. 269 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: And so yeah, you do see these people that are 270 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: working multiple jobs. 271 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 3: I call it poly. 272 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: Employment, this idea of working, yes, polly employment inspired by 273 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: one of my respondents who was polyamorous, and I was like, well, 274 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: have you got that many lovers and you got that 275 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: many jobs? 276 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: That's an interesting combination. 277 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 2: But yeah, so you have these workers that have this 278 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: poly employment, and this poly employment sometimes we hear it 279 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: referred to as like hyphenated workers. It can mean lots 280 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: of different things. You might be a creative freelancer, who 281 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: has six different freelance clients. Well, guess what when you 282 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: try to go for unemployment or you try to go 283 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: for an apartment, having that many different sources of income 284 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: actually complicates. 285 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 3: Things a lot. 286 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: Well, you lost one client, so do you still do 287 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: you get unemployment? No, you probably don't because you're still 288 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: quote working. 289 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 3: We also see that. 290 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: This poly employment really complicates things in terms of when 291 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 2: people are making their money. So you have six different employers, 292 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 2: you might end up getting, you know, paid on Tuesday 293 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: this week, and maybe next week you're paid on Wednesday, 294 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: or maybe they figure, well you're freelance, right, we don't 295 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: have to pay you on time. That's the whole point 296 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: behind the like freelance isn't free campaign from the freelancers Union. 297 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: But yeah, no, it's really tough. 298 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: And you know, even let's just take a moment back. 299 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 2: Even if let's say all these minim wage workers were 300 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: high schoolers, what makes us think that it's okay to 301 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 2: exploit high schoolers? Right? Like? Why these are not these 302 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: are not easy jobs? Right, You're not sitting behind a desk, 303 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: you're flipping burgers, you're in a hot restaurant, you're working 304 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: doing all these different jobs, Like, let's pay people for 305 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: how important that job is. Let's pay them based on 306 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 2: what that job is worth and not sit They're like, oh, well, 307 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: I mean it reminds me of kind of what we 308 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: used to say about like women's wages back in the 309 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: eighteen hundred, yeah, early nineteenth right, Like right, you don't 310 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 2: need the money. 311 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: Because they have husbands, right, yeah, but. 312 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: No, you know what people ought to be paid for 313 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: what they're doing, and their race, their sex, their age 314 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: should not factor into how much they're getting paid. 315 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: Why do you think, Alexandria, that we are experiencing right 316 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: now this strike movement right where it is, It is 317 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: happening across industries, just as right before I signed on 318 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: to here, UAW is expanding or strike by five thousand, 319 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: you know, by five thousand more workers. They've been kind 320 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: of doing this trickling, right of shutting down different different cities, 321 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: different plants at different times. But we've seen it everywhere 322 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: from auto workers to writers to actors. We've seen it 323 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: with teachers, we've seen it in the healthcare industry, all 324 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: in the in the past few years, right, and when 325 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: I say few, I mean like the past three So 326 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,239 Speaker 1: what like, what do you believe as somebody that has 327 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: been studying this is sparking it, and like is is 328 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: this Is it a movement or is it a moment? 329 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: That's a good question. 330 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: So people aren't stupid, right, Like we had the pandemic, 331 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: and two things happen. One, people realize like you could 332 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: get you could get knocked out by a virus, right, 333 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 2: you could die from this, you could end up with 334 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: long COVID, you could simply just end up really sick. 335 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: And the other thing that happens is we have this 336 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 2: Cares Act. We give people unemployed, We give them some 337 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 2: of the most generous unemployment in the world. During the 338 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: Cares Act, right, seventy six percent of recipients of unemployment 339 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: between April and July twenty twenty are making more on 340 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: unemployment that they have been making while working. And they're 341 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 2: making that money. They're receiving that money without having to 342 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 2: go and endanger themselves, without having to leave home, withouting 343 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 2: to pay for dry cleaning work, lunches, et cet relevant 344 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: to commute the. 345 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 3: Whole nine yards. 346 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 2: People use that time to rest, to reflect, to reset. 347 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 2: You know my books I'd Hustle Safety and it is 348 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: based on one hundred and ninety nine respondents. So we 349 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: interviewed multiple times throughout the pandemic, and over and over again, 350 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 2: people said, you know what, I got, this Cares Act money. 351 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 2: And I decided, I'm going to spend time really thinking 352 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 2: about what i want to do when this pandemic. I 353 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: want to think about my career. I'm not going to 354 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 2: work with people I don't want to work with. I'm 355 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: gonna take on projects that I want to take on. 356 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 2: And yeah, if people had small children, they had to 357 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: teach at home and run everything. That was very stressful. 358 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: But when this money came in, it let people sort 359 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 2: of get a glimpse of what life could be, get 360 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: a glimpse of that, like, you know, upper middle class 361 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: professional life where the money is coming in every week 362 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: and the bills are good and you can work remote, 363 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: and like, I think it gave people just enough of 364 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 2: a taste. And then we go back into this like 365 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 2: oh back you know, business as usual, and people are like, 366 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, no no. I chased the promise land. 367 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 2: I want the promise Land. And you know, as you 368 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: brought up yourself right, we were recognizing workers in New York. 369 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 3: We were clapping every night, at seven pm. 370 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: And I think that people realize, wait, we can come together, 371 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: and if we can come together and we'ren't happy with work, 372 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 2: the answer is a strike. The answer is union organizing. 373 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 2: The answer is labor taking on some of the the 374 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 2: biggest approval ratings that we have seen in decades. 375 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: You know what I think too, also happened during that 376 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: time again for those that were privileged enough to have 377 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: some rest and reflection, is also this idea that we 378 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: watched how wealthy people became uber wealthy, right, like there 379 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: was it. There is such a And you tell me 380 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: because I grew up during the time of you know, 381 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: lifestyles of the rich and famous, of remembering seeing that, 382 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: you know, come across the television screen in my grandparents' home. 383 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: I you know, there have always been rich people, right, 384 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: There's always been people that have had more than everybody else. 385 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: What do you think though, that it is about this 386 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: current cycle of wealth that is producing this type of 387 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: pushback in anger that is different from other points in 388 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: our history. 389 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: So, you know, one of the things we did with 390 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 2: interviewing these one hundred and ninety nine workers, we interviewed 391 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: them very early in the pandemic, beginning in April twenty twenty, 392 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: we have this paper. Some of us are in yachts 393 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: and some of us are in Dinghy's. And what happened, 394 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 2: especially in the New York area, is that, you know, 395 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 2: all the low age workers were stuck in New York, right, 396 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: It's like Hurricane Katrina all over again. You don't have 397 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 2: a car, you don't have a beach house, you don't 398 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: have anywhere to go to. And all the wealthier people, 399 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: all the you know, the owners of those restaurants, all 400 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: of Wall Street, they all fleeted their second homes. And 401 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,479 Speaker 2: so many of my respondents were like, I'm abandoned, Like 402 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: they literally just left, and we're like, yeah, catch it later. 403 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: I hope you'd make it through this. And so I 404 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 2: think for a lot of people, it was this strong 405 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 2: realization that you know, for most workers, we really are 406 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: just kind of cogs in the machine, like there is 407 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: isn't there's no one really looking out for you. 408 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: And I think that. 409 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 2: Sense of sort of being abandoned during you know, in 410 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 2: the early days of the pandemic, it was like something 411 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 2: out of a horror movie, right, Like the streets are empty, 412 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: people are scared, you're just hearing sirens and so I 413 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: think for a lot of people that was really kind 414 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: of energizing in a sense of like we need. 415 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 3: To fight back. I think it is. I think what 416 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: we are. 417 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: Seeing now is going to lead, I hope, to just 418 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 2: major change going forward. 419 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: I think that we are living in, and you're writing 420 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: on and reporting on a really interesting time. I don't 421 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: know where we will be five and ten and fifteen 422 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: years from now in terms of whether or not we're 423 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: able to glean at that point with some distance, whether 424 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: or not this really is a movement or if it 425 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: is a fleeting moment. But what I do recognize is 426 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: that how wealthy people have become has created this lack 427 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: of empathy and this detachment from humanity in a way 428 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: that again I have not seen before in my lifetime. 429 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: And I think that just the imagery that you created 430 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 1: just now of here are the uber wealthy that fled 431 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: right that literally were able to go to their country homes, 432 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: go to their Hampton homes, go to wherever else because 433 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: the outdoors were safe and they had real estate in 434 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: those outdoors. But for everyone else who were in studio 435 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: apartments with multiple people, that were fine when we were 436 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: all going to work in school at different times, all 437 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden you felt the constriction, you felt the strain, 438 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: and I think it just became ever like a parent, 439 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: and that kind of that imagery I think has stayed 440 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: with us, you know now years later. So final thoughts 441 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: for you on what you hope folks will will take 442 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: from your book side Hostle safety Net. 443 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 2: So one of the things I'm hoping people take is 444 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: this idea that you know, we gave people money during 445 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: the pandemic and people were able to use that money 446 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 2: for positive things. Right. We often have this idea of like, oh, 447 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: the scariest sentence is like I'm from the government, I'm 448 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 2: here to help. But it actually turns out that government 449 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 2: money can be a game changer, especially for workers who 450 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 2: are struggling. So workers were able to open businesses, they 451 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: were able to return to school, Some of them left 452 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: gig work far far behind and ended up becoming things 453 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 2: like communityhabilitation specialists helping individuals with disabilities to transition into 454 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: being independent in society on their own. And so you know, 455 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: this was this was a really positive thing, and I 456 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: think that, if anything, it really kind of gives a 457 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 2: lot of credence towards various programs for basic income, for 458 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: guaranteed income. Because if these are the things that people 459 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: can accomplish during a hopefully once in a generation pandemic, 460 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: how many more incredible things could people accomplish if it 461 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: was safe to go and congregate with people, if you 462 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: you know, didn't weren't under orders or suggestions to stay 463 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: at home or to stay out of, you know, places 464 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: where you were collecting with other people. So I think 465 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: that there's there's a really strong case to be made 466 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: here for a lot of sort of government support for 467 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: everyone in order to sort of equalize the playing field 468 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: and allow people to move forward in their careers and 469 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: then their lives. 470 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that it would be great to 471 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: not you know, punish people for being in poverty, and 472 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: to not punish people for being workers, the very people 473 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: that make our country move. So Alexandria, thank you so 474 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: much for making the time to join wokef folks. The 475 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: book is side Hustle, Safety Net, How vulnerable workers survive 476 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: precarious times. It is out, pick it up, discuss it 477 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: because that is how we turn these moments into movements. 478 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: Appreciate you, thank you. That is it for me today, 479 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: Dear friends on woke. Af as always power to the 480 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. 481 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: Power. 482 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: Get woke and stay woke as fuck.