Speaker 1: Fuck work. Hey hey, hey, hey, good introduction. I'm Robert Evans.
Speaker 1: This is it could happen here. That was Chris Garrison's
Speaker 1: also here, so is Sophie, who is changing her name
Speaker 1: to Sophie. What is your new name, Sophie dot Com Arena,
Speaker 1: Sophie dot Com Arena. She's doing this to deal with
Speaker 1: the trauma of the fact that Los Angeles just agreed
Speaker 1: to change the name of the Chase Bank Arena to
Speaker 1: the Crypto dot Com. Oh, Staples Center, Sorry, I'm getting
Speaker 1: my arena's named after venal brands mixed uff. Speaking of
Speaker 1: the pointlessness of work, there are people laboring right now
Speaker 1: who worked at Staples so that Staples would have enough
Speaker 1: money to name a place where people go do sports
Speaker 1: after a place where people get fucking pencils um. And
Speaker 1: now Staples has declined enough at it's just crypto dot com.
Speaker 1: Fucking Crypto dot com, look upon, look upon the worst
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency e formerly Mighty Staples in despair, fucking the Osmond
Speaker 1: Dius of the office supply world. I don't know whatever
Speaker 1: what are we talking about. We're going to no that
Speaker 1: comes in the middle, but right now we're gonna go
Speaker 1: to a place where they banned crypto mining for the
Speaker 1: most part. So and that that places China, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about specifically a lot of stuf us
Speaker 1: been going on the Chinese Internet, what's been going on
Speaker 1: in Chinese labor because so Garrison Garrison told me we're
Speaker 1: doing an at work episode and I went, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a there's you know, there's a version of this
Speaker 1: in China. And then I realized that like a almost
Speaker 1: no one has heard of lying flat and be it
Speaker 1: rules and see that nobody really know in the US
Speaker 1: knows what's going on in the Chinese Internet because it's
Speaker 1: effectively siloed. And I mean, you know that there's there's
Speaker 1: there's there's there's lots different ways to stile out. I
Speaker 1: mean there's there's literally the Great Firewall. There's factors and
Speaker 1: different languages, people use different apps, and you know, the
Speaker 1: Internet has become this sort of like you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a bunch of bubbles that don't interact
Speaker 1: with each other. Yeah, the wald Garden thing, and it's
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of national level world garden stuff
Speaker 1: is I think, in a lot of ways, way more
Speaker 1: dangerous than the stuff you know that, like people complaining
Speaker 1: about it was sucking Audie logical bubble and like that's bad.
Speaker 1: But the fact that we have bubbles like this where
Speaker 1: it's like you know, the like with with like actual
Speaker 1: they basically borders but online yeah yeah, because they're enforced
Speaker 1: by governments with force. Yeah. Yeah, the place it was
Speaker 1: always going to go. Um, once we decided not to
Speaker 1: be rad with the Internet, which everyone collectively decided in
Speaker 1: I'm going to say one thousand four, Yeah, do you
Speaker 1: think do you think? Do do you think? Do you think?
Speaker 1: That was nine eleven fault nine eleven played a role.
Speaker 1: Nine eleven did play a role. Um, the dot com
Speaker 1: boom played another role. Um, there were there there, There
Speaker 1: were a number of factors. Um, but we can all
Speaker 1: blame it on let's blame it on low tax and continue.
Speaker 1: So anti work in China before we get into lying flat,
Speaker 1: which is China's version of anti work, isn't the right
Speaker 1: word because this actually started a few months before sort
Speaker 1: of anti work blew up in the US. But before
Speaker 1: we fully get into that. To understand what's going on here,
Speaker 1: we need to talk about something called involution. And did
Speaker 1: you say that again? Like evil involution in involution, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this this, this is this is originally this is
Speaker 1: a very obscure anthropological term developed by my old nemesis,
Speaker 1: Clifford Geertz, who's one of the most famous and most
Speaker 1: important anthropologists in history, who also sucks ass and I
Speaker 1: hate him. I thought your nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also,
Speaker 1: but for different reasons. Should I cancel the hit sub
Speaker 1: sub nemesis something I I have many I have many
Speaker 1: nemesses that I have been on the side O God
Speaker 1: here Jody Dean episode at some point. Now, thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars, although
Speaker 1: this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war, yeah,
Speaker 1: said most of them. Yeah yeah, but what what what
Speaker 1: Gears was describing? Basically, so she doesn't feel work in Java?
Speaker 1: And what are you describing? What what involution means? It's
Speaker 1: the system where people keep working harder and harder for
Speaker 1: there's no increase in output, and so that there's no
Speaker 1: there's no rewards for working harder, and so you know,
Speaker 1: in Java you'd have these plantations, right, and the plantations
Speaker 1: would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But
Speaker 1: because each new person was only like harvesting just enough
Speaker 1: to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases.
Speaker 1: And so you know, yeah, there's no there's no output
Speaker 1: increases and in not really the case in America in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yeah, and what's interesting, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: So the reason I want to talk about this also
Speaker 1: is because basically everyone who's been writing about this formation
Speaker 1: news outlets has missed about half of the story of
Speaker 1: how how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that like
Speaker 1: I don't like again, I was an anthropology major. I
Speaker 1: don't think I ever ran into involution while like while
Speaker 1: I was studying anthropology. Yeah, and no one has ever
Speaker 1: heard of this, Like fucking everyone in China has like
Speaker 1: like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and you know, I want to talk a bit
Speaker 1: about how to emerge. And part of this is because
Speaker 1: you know, in the last about two years, people will
Speaker 1: be getting increasingly piste off at you know, just the
Speaker 1: sort of incredibly competitive nature of Chinese society and particularly work.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of this is because everyone's
Speaker 1: working what's what's called which is nine am to nine
Speaker 1: PM six days a week. And she actually didn't make
Speaker 1: this good. When I say everyone, that's like an average schedule.
Speaker 1: The schedules get a lot worse than that. But in
Speaker 1: the nine six is the one that sort of gets
Speaker 1: the attention because a lot of people work it, especially
Speaker 1: the tech industry. This is you know, we do, but
Speaker 1: you know, everyone focused on the tech industry, everyone ignores
Speaker 1: a bunch of myrket workers who also do this and worse.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's just a normal societal pressure to
Speaker 1: sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working.
Speaker 1: And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working
Speaker 1: like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since
Speaker 1: like people would literally collapse and missastion in the fields
Speaker 1: and the great leap forward, Like that's lots of people
Speaker 1: are working this hard. And but but instead of you know,
Speaker 1: getting rewards for this, Chinese growth rates have been collapsing
Speaker 1: for a decade. And yeah, this is you know, this
Speaker 1: is this is the thing that you get. In the
Speaker 1: U s too, was like, well, okay, people were like, well,
Speaker 1: if you work out to get into the middle class,
Speaker 1: but then you know everyone's working nine six. No one's
Speaker 1: getting into the widdle class, the like China has incredibly
Speaker 1: low rates of social ability, and you know it into
Speaker 1: this comes involution. But the weird part of what's happening
Speaker 1: year is that involution doesn't enter the Chinese discourse through
Speaker 1: like people complaining about work. It's it's actually a product
Speaker 1: of a bunch of middle class people complaining about Chinese
Speaker 1: industrial policy. And this is the hardest story that nobody
Speaker 1: really talks about, even though I think it's it's really
Speaker 1: interesting because again like this, you know, anti anti work
Speaker 1: in the U s RS and the left right involution,
Speaker 1: which is the thing that's going to bring about sort
Speaker 1: of the Chinese version of anti work is the right
Speaker 1: way is originally a right wing discourse, um and and
Speaker 1: and it's interesting, it's it's it's a right wing, very
Speaker 1: nationalist discourse that gets you know, the right wing part
Speaker 1: of it gets essentially expunged and it gets pulled left.
Speaker 1: So originally, you know, China is I don't have a
Speaker 1: more elegant way of saying this than China's leaders, and
Speaker 1: more online than ours, like significantly more like they Actually
Speaker 1: that's hard, that's hard to bash it. It's people people
Speaker 1: like like local government offices right have like they have
Speaker 1: these like internal sites that like show them what people
Speaker 1: are posting. And this this goes from the from the
Speaker 1: bottom levels, it goes away to the top. Like people
Speaker 1: actually listen to bloggers, like like they're there, you know
Speaker 1: some of them, some of the people I'm about to
Speaker 1: talk about it are incredibly influential. And there's a bunch
Speaker 1: of arguments in the early two thousands about how China
Speaker 1: is gonna industrialize and these are basically online arguments. Um
Speaker 1: and the guys who win that argument, she Shanping basically
Speaker 1: takes their industrial policy and implements it, which is you know,
Speaker 1: which is which is scales Like how online these people
Speaker 1: are that Like, yeah, people are taking economic policy from
Speaker 1: like literally, I mean, you know, it's it's not solely up.
Speaker 1: I don't take acon on policy people arguing on the internet.
Speaker 1: Right this is this is an incredibly online society and
Speaker 1: it you know, but the worst part is that for
Speaker 1: a while it works. You know that their econart policy
Speaker 1: basically is they're gonna increases size of the Chinese economy
Speaker 1: by investing in sort of high tech industry and moving
Speaker 1: up the value chain. This is this has been very
Speaker 1: standards or Chinese second on policy for a while. Um,
Speaker 1: the problem is in the last about decade, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's after working. And you know the CCPs response was
Speaker 1: to do more financialization, and this piste off the like
Speaker 1: the the online they were called like the Industrial Party.
Speaker 1: This this this is off those guys because you know, the
Speaker 1: whole thing was don't financialize, just keep investing in like
Speaker 1: building airplanes and stuff, and the Chinese economies will work
Speaker 1: itself out. And but eventually even they can't keep making
Speaker 1: this argument because you know, I mean like like he
Speaker 1: doesn't tend right, Like the Chinese GDP growth rate was
Speaker 1: ten percent and now it's like maybe five and last year,
Speaker 1: I mean last yearwies, so you know it was really low.
Speaker 1: But I mean the Chinese growth rate has been imploding.
Speaker 1: And so what you get out of this is is
Speaker 1: this group of people called the Taoists based on this
Speaker 1: guy named cow Okay, So, so how's the guy who
Speaker 1: who who essentially introduces the concept of involution and he's
Speaker 1: arguing that this is happening. Because I'm gonna quote him here,
Speaker 1: people can't get quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl,
Speaker 1: live in a big house because of the US. And
Speaker 1: so the solution to this basically is is to deal
Speaker 1: with like to destroy America as a hedgemon. And then
Speaker 1: once you do that, you know, you can get all
Speaker 1: of these things. And as you can tell, like, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house.
Speaker 1: This this is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the Chinese equivalent of
Speaker 1: two point five kids in a a white picket fence. And
Speaker 1: it has all of this sort of associated gender politics
Speaker 1: and class politics to go along with that. And you know,
Speaker 1: and when when Cow and the cows are talking about involution,
Speaker 1: what they're talking about is they literally they literally means
Speaker 1: Chinese technated economy, right, so that they're talking about, Okay,
Speaker 1: that you have more inputs, you have labor, technology inputs,
Speaker 1: but the output for input is declining, and the only
Speaker 1: way to restore economic growth the chief prosperity is by
Speaker 1: solving a decline output by defeating the Americans. But you know,
Speaker 1: and and this this is kind of a big deal.
Speaker 1: And for a while, in sort of like twenty this
Speaker 1: this is, this is going places, but very quickly people
Speaker 1: are like, my life fucking sucks, Like I don't care
Speaker 1: about this econ ship or this like grand national struggle
Speaker 1: against the world hedgemon, Like I care about the fact that,
Speaker 1: like my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat
Speaker 1: race with like literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that
Speaker 1: would concern me too, if that were a thing that
Speaker 1: we were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: why there's there's been some really funny stuff with involution
Speaker 1: where like you read accounts of it and you'll get
Speaker 1: like anthropologists going like, oh, yeah, this is this is
Speaker 1: the thing that this is the thing that's unique to China,
Speaker 1: and it's like have have you worked a job in
Speaker 1: in the US? Like but you know involution, you know
Speaker 1: what happens to it over over the course of sort
Speaker 1: of it goes from being the general you know, it
Speaker 1: goes it goes from being this thing that's about like
Speaker 1: very specific like technical industrial arguments about industrial policy too.
Speaker 1: Is when one anthropologists put it, quote the experience of
Speaker 1: being locked in competition that one ultimately knows as meaningless.
Speaker 1: And so people, yeah, we could we couldn't imagine that
Speaker 1: this is yeah, and it's you know, and people people
Speaker 1: start talking about finding individual solutions to this, and so
Speaker 1: you know, then this is things like working last moving
Speaker 1: to lower tier city, is getting less protgious jobs. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, and I want to think about this
Speaker 1: again because this this is a really interesting thing where
Speaker 1: you have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort
Speaker 1: of like like middle class like nostalgia kind of like
Speaker 1: you know, like Milt aggressive foreign policy thing and then
Speaker 1: it just flips and and part of how it flips,
Speaker 1: and this is a part of the story that is
Speaker 1: almost completely ignored, but I think it's really important. Did
Speaker 1: you guys know about this? The YouTuber named leads It.
Speaker 1: She she's the biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has sixteen million followers,
Speaker 1: and most of her followers are not on YouTube because
Speaker 1: you know, YouTube like blocked by the firewall. But she
Speaker 1: has she has fifty five million followers on the the
Speaker 1: sort of Chinese version of TikTok, and yeah, she has
Speaker 1: across the world. She has a hundred million followers, right
Speaker 1: like she she's she's one of the biggest media stars
Speaker 1: in the world. And her origins are kind of unclear.
Speaker 1: The like official biography basically says that like when she
Speaker 1: was twelve, instead of going to high school. She's being
Speaker 1: a waitress, and then she had to like you know,
Speaker 1: but she she she'd gone to the city, and then
Speaker 1: she had to return to Realville to take care of
Speaker 1: her grandma. And she makes these videos that are these
Speaker 1: like very soft and calming videos or like calming music
Speaker 1: of her going into the woods and like harvesting materials
Speaker 1: and making fires out of logs and like cooking things. Okay,
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's just like it's you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's very much this this really utopianism. There's there's basically
Speaker 1: no industrial technology like Cottage corp returned to nature. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who watched it like
Speaker 1: that just to like soothe them after a day of work.
Speaker 1: Like see somebody like dig a cave and turn it
Speaker 1: into like a bath or something using just hand tools
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, And there's it's interesting this kind of
Speaker 1: it's almost like turned into a sub genre. But she's
Speaker 1: by far the biggest like version of this. And you know,
Speaker 1: so she she gets picked up by a media company
Speaker 1: and from goes viral, and you know, its interesting because
Speaker 1: so she's doing this because so she she has to
Speaker 1: go back to take care of her grandma, and so
Speaker 1: she like opens a store and she's trying to support
Speaker 1: herself but in like her grandma by opening a store.
Speaker 1: And so the videos were like a way to promote
Speaker 1: the store. And then you know, now she has a
Speaker 1: hundred million followers and she she gets a doctored as
Speaker 1: this kind of like like national culture ambassador, I guess
Speaker 1: by the state. Sure, And and it's just you know,
Speaker 1: so there's nothing overtally political about these videos at all, right,
Speaker 1: which is especially offering and like trying to sell is
Speaker 1: this you know, this like fantasy of retreat from industrial
Speaker 1: majority into world life. And I think it's really easy
Speaker 1: to look at that esthetic and go like this is
Speaker 1: basically fascist, Like this is rejecting majority embraced here issues.
Speaker 1: Some people online when they see that immediately sees off.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, it's eco fascism, yes that yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, and I think like that
Speaker 1: interpretation think is actually a lot of y I got
Speaker 1: picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies and
Speaker 1: then like sort of by the Chinese state because you know,
Speaker 1: like having an actual positive utopian image of rural life
Speaker 1: is politically easeul with them, and something that's like not
Speaker 1: hasn't been true since like we've had this for a
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, well no, and I think I would
Speaker 1: say this this. I think this is the thing that's
Speaker 1: different in China is that there hasn't been like a
Speaker 1: positive conception of rural life really since I guess the
Speaker 1: Great Leap Forwards and then are like there there were
Speaker 1: some people in the Cultural Revolution, but then they actually
Speaker 1: went there and we're like, oh god, this sucks, and
Speaker 1: so you know, so they didn't need a new one.
Speaker 1: They come up with this. But you know, the thing
Speaker 1: that's different about China than the US is that China's
Speaker 1: market worker population like is almost the entire size of
Speaker 1: the population of the US. I mean it's it's like
Speaker 1: two seventy million people, right, I mean it's it's enormous
Speaker 1: and and a huge number of these people. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm some of these people are going from like city
Speaker 1: to city. You're like town of town, but a lot
Speaker 1: of these people are coming from from rural villages into cities.
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean these are this this is
Speaker 1: the background of the Chinese workforce. And like these people
Speaker 1: like they see their family once a year because you know,
Speaker 1: like they can't afford to go home. So they go
Speaker 1: home once a year for New Year's because they get
Speaker 1: some time. Often they come back and and this is
Speaker 1: where you know, like these videos are obvious fantasy, but
Speaker 1: you know, they suggest an alternative to work in the
Speaker 1: capitalist city that's sort of plausible, you know, especially if
Speaker 1: you come from rural village. And this is where this
Speaker 1: whole thing completely backfires on the Chinese ruling class. And
Speaker 1: you know, because this this this this cowisted involution discourse
Speaker 1: is about diffuse with this style of rural rural utopianism
Speaker 1: into a movement that is going to shake the foundation
Speaker 1: of work itself. But first, but first, ads again also
Speaker 1: not connecting to anything we're talking Connectionever, why Garrison don't
Speaker 1: even bring that up. There's no needs, there's no reason
Speaker 1: for people to think about about the fact that about that.
Speaker 1: Don't think anyway, here's about ads. Yeah, think about the
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway, but role primary sponsors. If it could
Speaker 1: happen here, if it happens to you, you'll want the
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway, patrol the border. It's so funny. Anyway,
Speaker 1: We're trying, but I think it's we're working on it. People.
Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious. Yeah, please don't, please don't join
Speaker 1: the Washington State Highway Patrol. Ah, we're back. And I
Speaker 1: don't know about y'all, but I thought I knew what
Speaker 1: I was talking about, and I after those ads, I
Speaker 1: am fully Washington State Highway Patrol build. I'm on board.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Yeah. In April, a guy in Chinese
Speaker 1: social media makes a post and I'm just gonnae So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read this post because it's kind of
Speaker 1: short and it rules. I haven't been working for two years.
Speaker 1: I have just been hanging around, and I don't see
Speaker 1: anything wrong with This pressure mainly comes from the generation
Speaker 1: with your peers and the values of the older generation.
Speaker 1: These pressures keep popping up, but we don't have to
Speaker 1: abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and
Speaker 1: sleep in a wooden bucket. I can live like Heracleitus
Speaker 1: in a cave thinking about logos. Since this land has
Speaker 1: never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity, I
Speaker 1: can develop one of my own. Lying down is my
Speaker 1: philosophical movements. Only through lying flat can humans become the
Speaker 1: measure of all things based. Oh my god, that's the best.
Speaker 1: I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now, My
Speaker 1: my man Diogenes is he's from this trennd in Greek
Speaker 1: philosophical thought during kind of the high period of Greek
Speaker 1: civilization where a bunch of things come out of it.
Speaker 1: You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out of it,
Speaker 1: You kind of get you get elements of like Puritan
Speaker 1: culture from it, because there are a lot of them
Speaker 1: are very much anti like the the pleasures of sex
Speaker 1: and like anything pleasing, and like you don't you don't
Speaker 1: do anything that feels good because then you become dependent
Speaker 1: on it. Like there's a whole bunch of ship going
Speaker 1: on um. And Diogenes was like one of the one
Speaker 1: of the first motherfucker's who were kind of playing around
Speaker 1: in this in this philosophical space. And when he gets
Speaker 1: into so his early life is his dad is uh
Speaker 1: kind of a grifter. It sounds like we know that
Speaker 1: he got in trouble. He and his dad got exiled
Speaker 1: for debasing currency, which could be as simple as they
Speaker 1: were watering down for lack of a better term, like
Speaker 1: the gold or silver and currency with less precious metals
Speaker 1: and hiding it in order to make a profit. Right,
Speaker 1: and like keep the extra gold. That could be what
Speaker 1: they were doing. It also could have been like it
Speaker 1: could have been political, because some people who were doing
Speaker 1: this in Sinope, I think is the city which is
Speaker 1: now in Turkey. We're doing it for political reasons. We
Speaker 1: don't really know why. But there's actual documented archaeological evidence
Speaker 1: of this, including right around the time he would have
Speaker 1: been a child, we found from that period a cash
Speaker 1: of debased gold and silver coins that had been destroyed,
Speaker 1: so someone had like realized they've been debased and destroyed
Speaker 1: them so they couldn't be used. So there's evidence. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he and his dad get exiled, which means from an
Speaker 1: early stage he goes from being someone of means, if
Speaker 1: your dad's making the currency, you're not probably not like
Speaker 1: a poor family um. And then they get kicked out
Speaker 1: of their city state and they're like kind of stateless.
Speaker 1: And so Diogenes evolves over time and like gets into philosophy.
Speaker 1: He tries to there's this I always forget the name
Speaker 1: of the guy that he he loved it first, but
Speaker 1: there's this philosopher who's like, you know this cynical like
Speaker 1: that's the school of thought he comes from he's like
Speaker 1: a cynic um that Diogenes really wants to study from,
Speaker 1: and the guy like assaults him as as Diogenes is like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: I want to learn from you. Like he like hits
Speaker 1: him or something. This keeps happening, and eventually he's like
Speaker 1: this guy is like why do you keep doing this?
Speaker 1: And Diogenes is like, you have something I can learn from, uh,
Speaker 1: And so I don't really care what you do to me.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna keep persisting. And so he becomes
Speaker 1: this guy's student, YadA YadA. And the guy who he
Speaker 1: becomes the student of is like kind of a poser
Speaker 1: because he's talking about, like we need to give up
Speaker 1: you know, these kind of like pleasures of of like
Speaker 1: civilized life and and return to a more simple time
Speaker 1: and like not enjoy all of these, you know, the
Speaker 1: benefits of wealth. But he like he's also a rich
Speaker 1: guy and he doesn't give up his money, and Diogenes
Speaker 1: is like poor as hell um and stays that way um.
Speaker 1: And so he becomes famous for he goes to Athens
Speaker 1: and he becomes famous for a bunch of like troll
Speaker 1: ship we don't actually have. He wrote like ten books
Speaker 1: we don't have any of them, so we don't actually
Speaker 1: like know what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We
Speaker 1: just have stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes
Speaker 1: being a fucking troll. So like um on one occasion,
Speaker 1: he one of his big things was he believed that
Speaker 1: people that if if something was an acceptable behavior, it
Speaker 1: was an acceptable behavior everywhere, right, And so the start
Speaker 1: of this was in in Athens, you were supposed to
Speaker 1: go buy your food in the market, but you weren't
Speaker 1: supposed to eat it there. That was like considered rude,
Speaker 1: like like like like kind of seen almost, and Diogenes
Speaker 1: would like get food and then usually by begging, because
Speaker 1: he was that was the way he got everything. He
Speaker 1: had no money. He would like get food and he
Speaker 1: would eat it right in the middle of the market,
Speaker 1: and everybody was like, that's disgusting, and Diogenes would be like, well,
Speaker 1: if it's okay for me to eat, it must be
Speaker 1: okay for me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took
Speaker 1: it a little bit further than that, because yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can see a few ways you can take this.
Speaker 1: He extended that too, if it's fine for me to
Speaker 1: urinator ship. It's fine for me to do it anywhere.
Speaker 1: He defended himself masturbating it. You can get people in
Speaker 1: public as if this is okay for me to do
Speaker 1: in my bedroom, why can't I do this here? Right? Um,
Speaker 1: it's very like he's he's he's a troll um Diogenes,
Speaker 1: and he's also like again, the stories we have him
Speaker 1: is he is like uber an aesthetic, so like at
Speaker 1: one point, for a long time, the only thing he
Speaker 1: owns is a wooden bowl that's his cup and and
Speaker 1: for his food. And then, according to you know legend,
Speaker 1: he sees this poor peasant child drinking from like cupped
Speaker 1: hands and he throws away his bowl and he's really
Speaker 1: angry and he's like, god, damn it, I spent all
Speaker 1: this effort carrying around something useless, like I could put
Speaker 1: ship in my hands. He's he's a very entertaining character
Speaker 1: and a very like yeah, yeah, he's absolutely an eugle
Speaker 1: um and he's yeah, he's just kind of like an
Speaker 1: endearing piece of shit, is like his the idea you get,
Speaker 1: but also like smarter than I mean, because because fundamentally
Speaker 1: what Diagenes is doing is he's he's saying like, hey,
Speaker 1: all this stuff that we think is important and good
Speaker 1: about our culture and and like valuable. What if it wasn't,
Speaker 1: what if none of it matters. He's like he's provoking
Speaker 1: the thick and he's he's big into like one of
Speaker 1: his his Like the things he comes back to a
Speaker 1: lot is that like, dogs are clearly happier than us
Speaker 1: and like better creatures than us, so we should just
Speaker 1: seek to be like dogs. Um. And one of the
Speaker 1: ways he might have died is getting bitten by a
Speaker 1: dog and his bike getting infective. We don't really know
Speaker 1: how he died. Um. Everything about Theogenes, this guy fucking
Speaker 1: hates rich people. Oh he's he's and he's very funny
Speaker 1: about it. So Alexander the Great apocryphal Lee Maybe this
Speaker 1: probably never happened, but the story is that Alexander the
Speaker 1: Great comes to Athens, you know, while he's on his
Speaker 1: his blitz through conquering the known world, and finds Diogenes.
Speaker 1: And Alexander the Great was like raised by Aristotle, right,
Speaker 1: so he knows his philosophy. Guys like he's he's he's
Speaker 1: seeking Diogenes out because he's a fan of this dude.
Speaker 1: Probably through stories that were told to him in the
Speaker 1: same way that like I'm telling them to you now.
Speaker 1: So he comes up to Diogenes and he's like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I'm Alexander the Great. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1: If I couldn't be Alexander the Great, I would want
Speaker 1: to be Diogenes um. And Diogenes response, well, if I
Speaker 1: couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to be Diogenes,
Speaker 1: which is a fucking flex Again, probably never happened, but like,
Speaker 1: I want to, I want to read this meme that
Speaker 1: Garrison sent me because it it happens. It's absolutely a
Speaker 1: perfect riptan to what what this whole thing is sort
Speaker 1: of about. So okay, this is me. The philosopher Diogenes
Speaker 1: was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen
Speaker 1: by the philosopher and not a process gust name Aristippus,
Speaker 1: who lives matter some dead ass Greek guy who's about
Speaker 1: to get absolutely destroyed. He's living comfortably like flattering the king.
Speaker 1: Aristipis says, if you would learn to be subservient to
Speaker 1: the king, you would not have to live on lentils.
Speaker 1: Diogenes should flied, learn to live on lentils, and you
Speaker 1: will not have to be subservient to the king. Oh,
Speaker 1: all sorts of based ship like that my favorite. But
Speaker 1: know so our guy Plato is like, is like trying
Speaker 1: to determine, trying to define like a human in the
Speaker 1: simplest way possible. Yes, yeah, like the Platonic idea. And
Speaker 1: he was, so he comes to the inclusion that like, well,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a it's an unwinged biped um,
Speaker 1: and Diogenes supposedly goes grabs a plucked chicken and says,
Speaker 1: behold a man, Like I found it, dude, rules um.
Speaker 1: He would he would famously walk around town in broad
Speaker 1: daylight with like a what do you call it, like
Speaker 1: a lantern, like looking around and people like, what are
Speaker 1: you looking for? It's like I'm looking for a man.
Speaker 1: He would like, look at a dude, and you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for a man. And as it is to say, like,
Speaker 1: none of your motherfucker's are people like you all think
Speaker 1: that you're human beings, but you're really just pieces of ship.
Speaker 1: It's just an amazing asshole. Sorry that that we should
Speaker 1: move back to anti work, but that's yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: and this is this is the funny that both both
Speaker 1: both American and Chinese like anti work people both fucking
Speaker 1: love Diogenes. Yeah, you know, very popular on our slash
Speaker 1: anti work. Yeah, and you know, and the thing I
Speaker 1: was reading about the like, you know, learn to live
Speaker 1: on lentils and you'll never like after such a game
Speaker 1: by King that that's a lot of what lying down becomes.
Speaker 1: So very rapidly, this whole thing spreads into you this
Speaker 1: like really it's a sort of astounding, you know, it
Speaker 1: starts out of the meme and it spreads incredibly quickly,
Speaker 1: and the CCP gets like really really mad about this.
Speaker 1: Um so, so it's like so this this starts in April, right,
Speaker 1: and in May there's they have this like enormous media
Speaker 1: blitz where like like the party is like outlet basically,
Speaker 1: and Guandong publishes like a four page long attack on
Speaker 1: the concept of lying down, Like the cc They the
Speaker 1: newspapers everywhere published this stuff. Like the CCP like bands
Speaker 1: the term flat wheat yet Yeah, and it's funny because
Speaker 1: it's like if they do this, but it's too late,
Speaker 1: like it's yeah, and you know, so so part part
Speaker 1: of a lying down is is about, you know, you
Speaker 1: have this incredibly fast paced intense work culture. You have involution,
Speaker 1: you're working more and more and you're getting nothing out
Speaker 1: of it. Lying flat is just going no, like you
Speaker 1: just lie down, you refuse to work. But it's it's
Speaker 1: it's also it's more than that. And I think this
Speaker 1: is this goes back to the sort of broader conception
Speaker 1: of anti work. So on one of the slogans of
Speaker 1: this movement is don't bribe property, don't buy a car,
Speaker 1: don't get married, don't have children, and don't consume. And
Speaker 1: you know, the last part of this is implied is
Speaker 1: don't work. And you know, there's a lot sort of
Speaker 1: going on here. I mean, you have you know, it's
Speaker 1: not just sort of a critique of like we work
Speaker 1: too hard. It's about you know, it's about the sort
Speaker 1: of fall system. It's about the sort of patriarchy involved
Speaker 1: in this. It's about this sort of like force capitalist consumption.
Speaker 1: And it's about like, you know, the fact that like
Speaker 1: literally a quarter of Chinese of China's economy or Chinese
Speaker 1: GDP is like all this real estate bullshit that everyone
Speaker 1: knows is going to collapse and even when it gets built,
Speaker 1: like sucks. Thank god, we don't have anything like that here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, it's great. It's one of one of the
Speaker 1: fun things about learding histories. You get to just watch
Speaker 1: every country do exactly the same thing with their housing market,
Speaker 1: like Japan do it. It's like, it's great, It's just
Speaker 1: like you also you think this will work. What what
Speaker 1: what extra fun thing is you get to watch every
Speaker 1: country do the same thing with farms and it always
Speaker 1: ended the same anyway. Yeah, So there's there's a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, in order to sort of like facilitate this,
Speaker 1: you know, you get back to the Diogenes, So a
Speaker 1: lot of it what's happening is people sharing tips about
Speaker 1: how to make the cheapest food you can possibly survive
Speaker 1: on so you don't have to work, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: and people the guy who wrote the Diogenes post like
Speaker 1: he spends thirty dollars a month and he does this
Speaker 1: by only eating dried ramen and eggs and like rice. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's the way to do it. This is like the
Speaker 1: most extreme example. I actually, I don't even think it's
Speaker 1: the most atreme example. A lot of people. One of
Speaker 1: the things that happens a lot is munch of people
Speaker 1: just like have left their jobs to become monks. This
Speaker 1: this is like a whole thing Buddhist, like honestly, like absolutely,
Speaker 1: like and I used to live in a place in
Speaker 1: the middle of fucking nowhere, one of the most like
Speaker 1: isolated places I've ever lived that like had power um
Speaker 1: and one of the people who was like by neighbor,
Speaker 1: they were within several miles of us, was a monastery.
Speaker 1: This is in the United States, and like I went
Speaker 1: there once too because I heard they made good wine
Speaker 1: to try and get some of their wine, and like
Speaker 1: none of them would answer the door. I could see
Speaker 1: them inside all staring at me. They didn't do ship
Speaker 1: and my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah, that seems
Speaker 1: like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I see why you guys have picked this life. It
Speaker 1: was also during the election back from the r n
Speaker 1: C and the d n C and was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah. So there's
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, yeah, that'd mean the stream example,
Speaker 1: like if people going to become monks. But like one
Speaker 1: of the things that's happening a lot is again you know,
Speaker 1: China hasn't known it mactworker population and people are just
Speaker 1: like fuck this, I'm going back to my village and
Speaker 1: so and you know, and this is you know, this this,
Speaker 1: this is where they really screwed up with the YouTube
Speaker 1: stuff because you know, people were people, you know, they
Speaker 1: were gambling that that you know, you could just sell
Speaker 1: this as an aesthetic and you know, you can sell
Speaker 1: it as an aesthetic like Chinese TikTok has this integrated
Speaker 1: thing in it where like if you if you if
Speaker 1: you plug like something to buy it, like you can
Speaker 1: like click it and it'll just it'll take you like
Speaker 1: to a link like to to to to the thing
Speaker 1: it's selling, you know. And so yeah, they're making a
Speaker 1: no amount of money on this, but you know, the
Speaker 1: the the other side of that sword is a bunch
Speaker 1: of people were like, I don't have to work this
Speaker 1: Like I don't have to work in a city. I
Speaker 1: can just go home. Yeah, and you know, and you know,
Speaker 1: and you know, so you know, as you're talking about
Speaker 1: the antiwork stuff, it's not actually possible for a lot
Speaker 1: of people to leave their jobs. So the solution to
Speaker 1: this was there there's a culture that developed called petting fish,
Speaker 1: which and but but before you talking about petting fish,
Speaker 1: you said something about, uh, plug things on TikTok and
Speaker 1: you know who you know, you know like plugging like advertisements,
Speaker 1: and you know who also plugs plugs advertisements. Chris, Oh no,
Speaker 1: is it us Joe Rogan. But our new sponsor is
Speaker 1: the Joe Rogan Experience, brought to you by Honda. Honda
Speaker 1: Drive a Car, Do Fascism? Honda? Really yeah, Honda Garrison. Look,
Speaker 1: we don't We're not nearly a big enough podcast to
Speaker 1: get fucking to get a Toyota ad Are you crazy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what we can dream big. Yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: is the dream to sell Toyota's. I mean we could
Speaker 1: become used car salesman in the valley. All right, here's
Speaker 1: that ah right back, cut the heat and fish handle
Speaker 1: it to keep it all in baby. Yeah. So there's
Speaker 1: there's all this thing called the petting fish, which is
Speaker 1: like Chinese slack off culture, and you know a lot
Speaker 1: of people sharing tips abo how to slack off at work,
Speaker 1: and it's it's kind of the equivalent like I love
Speaker 1: that it's called petting fish. And then also like yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of the Chinese equivalent of like boss
Speaker 1: makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why shoot
Speaker 1: on company time. So people do just a lot of
Speaker 1: like they have a lot of like genuinely fun things
Speaker 1: they do. Like people people started putting like fake beatings
Speaker 1: on their calendars and people wouldn't bother them. They like
Speaker 1: they just like like, that's that is also that's that's
Speaker 1: that's also what I do. Yeah, yeah, I mean the
Speaker 1: if you want to make I love the term petting
Speaker 1: fish as well, but if you want to like make
Speaker 1: it sound cool. They're waging an insurgency from within capitalism
Speaker 1: by by by trying to take resources away from their employers,
Speaker 1: um without being spotted. Yeah, there's a there's a thing
Speaker 1: in volume one of Capital about this that I was like,
Speaker 1: I could pull this up, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: that is too much work. I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1: So I don't have the thing in volume one where
Speaker 1: talks about struggling between about labor time. But instead you
Speaker 1: get a bunch of people like the Smike, smuggling whiskey
Speaker 1: into work, taking through our lunch breaks. My favorite one,
Speaker 1: absolutely favorite drink at work, especially if your nurse, Oh boy,
Speaker 1: you've probably killed about fifty people crossed fingers crossed, so
Speaker 1: you know how like companies all have these like these
Speaker 1: really annoying like mindfulness fitness things. So one of these
Speaker 1: people started doing was okay, so you know the thing
Speaker 1: like you have to drink eight hour, eight times a day.
Speaker 1: So they would set these alarms that's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: have to go drink my water. And so like every
Speaker 1: like every like fifty minutes or something, they just go
Speaker 1: up and like spend twenty minutes getting water and they
Speaker 1: sit back down, and it's like you've just eviscerated and
Speaker 1: enormous part of your work day. And and the product
Speaker 1: of this, you know, this CP is really piste off
Speaker 1: about this, and you know, you get these giant billboards
Speaker 1: to say no lying flat, no petting fish on him
Speaker 1: or something. It would have been literally incomprehensible like a
Speaker 1: year ago. It's amazing. And you know, and I think
Speaker 1: this is something you know in the U. S anti work,
Speaker 1: like the actual political class kind of has been ignoring
Speaker 1: in I mean, you see a couple of f acial
Speaker 1: antists in China, che Ching Ping like made a speech.
Speaker 1: It was like, you know, he have a private speech
Speaker 1: to a bunch of how people in the party, and
Speaker 1: so a part of it a printed like a month
Speaker 1: ago or something I've I've lost track of all time.
Speaker 1: But like like like specifically in this speech that Ches
Speaker 1: and Ping is making that is published in the official
Speaker 1: like theoretical journal, he's like explicitly saying like don't lie
Speaker 1: flat and saying quote happy life is earned through heart,
Speaker 1: hard work. And yeah, and he's also has this, he
Speaker 1: has his ranch. But like denouncing welfare ism, which is
Speaker 1: great the the communist vanguard there. Yeah, yeah, preaching the
Speaker 1: immortal science. Yeah, socialism with Chinese characteristics. Motherfucker's don't be
Speaker 1: a welfare queen. Fo. It's great, you know, but it's
Speaker 1: interesting people. This is the one people are really freaked
Speaker 1: out about. Like I saw I saw like an American
Speaker 1: writer about this, who you know, They wrote like an
Speaker 1: article about this whole thing, and then they were like
Speaker 1: this is gonna this is gonna cause inflation. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be the driver of like what people
Speaker 1: just use the word inflation to mean whatever scary thing
Speaker 1: they want. Yeah, well they're they're like, oh, this will
Speaker 1: this will increase wages and that will lead to inflation
Speaker 1: and we'll get the seventies again. And I'm like, god, maybe,
Speaker 1: but a tallow disco again, did you ever think of
Speaker 1: that guy that we that were are reserves of a
Speaker 1: tallow disco are critically low? Do you wonder what a
Speaker 1: tallow disco is? No idea, that's a shame. All right,
Speaker 1: let's continue what what what type of like is there
Speaker 1: is there like any like you said this kind of
Speaker 1: stuff started to like move left words. Is there any
Speaker 1: like actual like leftist organizing in these types of places?
Speaker 1: So so this is the thing I was getting to,
Speaker 1: which is that, like, you know, people are starting to
Speaker 1: do reading groups. But the problem, the problem with leftist
Speaker 1: organizing in China is that, you know, so state policy
Speaker 1: in the past three years has been like if you
Speaker 1: poke your head above ground, you get arrested. So you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, for example, there was there was a strike
Speaker 1: at Jasick and you know a bunch of student groups
Speaker 1: who've been organizing for a long time like tried to
Speaker 1: do all dreaty with it, and they all got arrested.
Speaker 1: The people who are stri people who let the strike
Speaker 1: got arrested. All that. The students who are doing so
Speaker 1: ald already got arrested. People like people got arrested for
Speaker 1: like like dancing with like University students got arrested for
Speaker 1: like dancing with the people who were like cleaning the floors. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the emotional impression, yeah, like it's it's incredible and like,
Speaker 1: you know, and the other thing that you can see
Speaker 1: about this was so so For example, there was there
Speaker 1: was a guy doing like delivery driver organizing. It was
Speaker 1: kind of weird. He was like kind of an entrepreneur
Speaker 1: kind of doing livery driver organizing. Like he got arrested,
Speaker 1: and then you know, like a couple of weeks later,
Speaker 1: this is people like, oh, we're gonna like do things
Speaker 1: to improve the conditions of of delivery drivers, and you know,
Speaker 1: who knows if that's going to happen. But like, you know,
Speaker 1: basically like any anyone out for some reason that the
Speaker 1: people in the tech sector have been able to get
Speaker 1: away with more for reasons that are probably class based,
Speaker 1: and I think this doesn't take them seriously in the
Speaker 1: way they do with students factory workers. But you know,
Speaker 1: and actually I mean the fact that the tech workers
Speaker 1: like kind of recently like that there's a tech worker
Speaker 1: thing calling for like like democratic control of production, which
Speaker 1: is wild. But other than those guys like you can't
Speaker 1: you know, you can't stick your head up, you get flattened.
Speaker 1: So this has sort of been the result of this,
Speaker 1: which is this like you know, the sort of the
Speaker 1: like lying flat is this. You know, it's this mass
Speaker 1: decentralized movement that you know, there's there's no one to
Speaker 1: hit with a hammer, and you know, and and I think, like, okay,
Speaker 1: so one of one of the other quotes that's that's
Speaker 1: been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem.
Speaker 1: It doesn't poem as well in English, but this, this
Speaker 1: is the best you've got. Lying flat is to not
Speaker 1: bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat
Speaker 1: is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine.
Speaker 1: And so you know what was basically happening here is
Speaker 1: is it's a combination of the tendencies you see in
Speaker 1: the US, where you know, a bunch of people terrible jobs,
Speaker 1: realizing that everything is pointless. And then also this is
Speaker 1: a way you can, like this is the way you
Speaker 1: can like fight your boss without like the police showing up.
Speaker 1: And so there's there's some interesting like political stuff. So there,
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's there's if if you look at that,
Speaker 1: there there's a bunch of memes here because they're great.
Speaker 1: So there's there's been a thing with these people talking
Speaker 1: about how people are leaks, which are like their leaks,
Speaker 1: they're harvested over and over again and they're being exploited
Speaker 1: and like the plants, Yeah, plants like leaks like yeah,
Speaker 1: you eat. And so they have this thing that's leaks
Speaker 1: that life flat cannot be so easily harvested. It's just
Speaker 1: like a knife go like try like a machete, like
Speaker 1: trying to swing out a bunch of leaks, but the
Speaker 1: leaks are flat, so they can't hit them. And I
Speaker 1: see what, you know, I like, I like all of this. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's you know, and so and so
Speaker 1: what the product of this is that yeah, like this this, this,
Speaker 1: this has this stuff has actually been effective enough that
Speaker 1: the CCP, like you know, I mean, the CCP is
Speaker 1: is taking it seriously, but you know, there's not much
Speaker 1: they can do about it. Because like if someone's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go from a job that's really high
Speaker 1: stressed to one that's less high stress, like what are
Speaker 1: you're gonna are you just gonna arrest them? Like what
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do and so this, yeah, this,
Speaker 1: this has been building for a while now, and I
Speaker 1: don't know who who knows exactly like where it's going
Speaker 1: to go, but it's it's it's already you know. It's
Speaker 1: something that people can do as an individual in a
Speaker 1: place where organized political action is impossible in a way
Speaker 1: such that you know that their individual actions have a
Speaker 1: collective effect, but one that can't be just you know,
Speaker 1: pounded down. Yeah, I mean, it is certainly interesting to
Speaker 1: see two completely separate, like anti work style movements around
Speaker 1: basically around the same same exact time, with the same
Speaker 1: exact points, if you're totally different languages. If you're someone
Speaker 1: who's interested in massive global revolutionary change, this should probably
Speaker 1: be a thing that you are looking at and studying
Speaker 1: and thinking a lot about, because perhaps while we're arguing
Speaker 1: about ship that people started talking about in the eighteen seventies,
Speaker 1: this this might be a better thing to do than
Speaker 1: than that, because because it's it seems like there's some
Speaker 1: potential here. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: if if if you if you know any any any
Speaker 1: any actual revolutionary project that makes the world better is
Speaker 1: going to have to be international and that's been you
Speaker 1: know that that that that that's been the bane of
Speaker 1: all revolutionary movements forever. But you know, okay, so we
Speaker 1: have you know that we we have something to Chinese
Speaker 1: the American working class agrees on, which is Diogenes is
Speaker 1: based in work sucks. Yeah, So as you go forward
Speaker 1: into your life this week, um, take a page from
Speaker 1: Diogenes as his book and the people ship on the
Speaker 1: floor of a free people or yeah, free people are
Speaker 1: an h and M. Go walk into one and just
Speaker 1: just just go absolutely ruin that tile. I mean, fuck it.
Speaker 1: This is why my my my biggest political advice to
Speaker 1: friends who has always been learned to run fast, because
Speaker 1: if you learn to run fast, you can do so
Speaker 1: many more fun things in a store and then run
Speaker 1: fast that it's done right. The problem is that a
Speaker 1: lot of people like who who want to do this
Speaker 1: can't run fast enough. So learn to run fast to
Speaker 1: do this. There. It's like Moose said, all political power
Speaker 1: comes from being able to ship really fast and from
Speaker 1: the doors of a free people. Just get that hell
Speaker 1: out of there. The immortal silence. Look, I think I
Speaker 1: think I think we should eve with with the real
Speaker 1: immortal science, the the immortal words of a skeleton from
Speaker 1: the share Zone. Just walk out. You can leave work,
Speaker 1: social things, movie, home, class, dentist, close shops to fancy
Speaker 1: weed store cops, if you're quick, friendships, if it sucks,
Speaker 1: hit the bricks yeah yeah. As as some comedian who
Speaker 1: I can't remember now said, always have an exit plan
Speaker 1: like that. That that should be your thought for everything
Speaker 1: everything in the world. Bricks. Hit the fucking bricks, Get
Speaker 1: out anyway, Get out of this podcast episode now. It
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
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