1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: The whole Internet is made of people, and I think 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: it's easy to forget that because we've been taught these 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: myths that it is all these giant corporations, also the 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: myth of like these billionaire founders, and it's like, now 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: those dudes are sitting on top of work that regular 6 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: folks made. 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: There are no Girls on the Internet. As a production 8 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,959 Speaker 2: is there are no girls on the Internet. Why does 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 2: it feel like the main voices dominating tech today are 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: basically supervillains, billionaires who don't care if the world gets worse, 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: just so long as they get a little bit richer. 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: We hear them absolutely everywhere. They're bad ideas, they're grievances. 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: It's all amplified like a handful of angry rich dudes 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: are the only ones who matter. But we know those 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: are not the only people shaping tech, because there are brilliant, diverse, 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: ethical creators who have been overlooked or outright erased or 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: silenced in favor of the loudest, most morally bankrupt, and 19 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: often wrongest voices. Writer and entrepreneur and Neil Dash one 20 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: of the internet's earliest OG voices says it didn't used 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 2: to be this way. Neil, thank you so much for 22 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: being here. Welcome to the show. 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 2: So you were one of the first wave of very 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 2: cool tech people people like you. I'm not even kidding 26 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: or why I wanted to be in tech in the 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: first place. 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's really kind. 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: And so as one of the OG like wave of bloggers, 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 2: what was it like, Like, what do you miss about 31 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: this earlier iteration of the Internet. 32 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: Oh, you know that, I'm always cautious about good old days, 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: but it was something special in terms of we knew 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: that it was genuinely new, Like we knew that, you know, 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: the early days of the social web, that this was 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: something everybody was going to be doing, and that those 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: of us that we're making friends, we could see that like, oh, 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: pretty soon everybody is going to be making friends online 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: and connecting, and that you know, that idea of like 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: sharing photos with somebody online with something and everybody was 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: going to be doing. 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 3: And that seemed. 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: Wild in like nineteen ninety nine or two thousand. 44 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 2: What do you think has changed since then? 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: I think every I think all of the horrible things 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: that we encountered everybody else has too, you know, so 47 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: that the sense of like you know, before we had 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: the word catfishing that was around, and and even just 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: the awkward parts, like even the stuff that's just not 50 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: like hugely terrible, but the you know, the ordinary indignities, 51 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: like the things where you have that you know, frustration 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: of I wish I didn't have to see that person 53 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: in my timeline, or I wish that I could just 54 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: get a break from seeing you know, doom scrolling or whatever. 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: You know, that stuff all existed in its own basic 56 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: way even fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, a long 57 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: time ago, and and then you could see again like 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: this is something we're all going to be dealing with 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, and that inevitability, I think was 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: a big part of what we had hoped maybe we 61 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: would have a solution for before now. 62 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 2: That is a story we tell often on this show. 63 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 2: How the I like, how you use the word like 64 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: everyday in dignities, these things that you know, us a 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: particular group is experiencing, and it's like kind of a 66 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: canary and a coal mine where it's like this is 67 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: going to be the norm for everybody who's online one 68 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: day if we don't take this serious, or we don't 69 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: do something about this, or we don't change this, and 70 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: then it just becomes what it feels like to be online. 71 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: Oh for sure. 72 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think and that's you know, the 73 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: classic stories. Obviously, anybody in any marginalized group could see, 74 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, this is how we're being targeted or or 75 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: this is how we bonded together and how we formed 76 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: our communities to protect each other or just to celebrate 77 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: each other, right in the positive sense. 78 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: And so you could. 79 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: See that these were these just ways of being that 80 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: we're going to be inevitable, that we're going to be ubiquitous. 81 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: And then you know it just it took in some 82 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: way so much longer to become a common knowledge. You know, 83 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: you would think, okay, this will be instant any day. Now, 84 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: everybody's going to have really good tools to like, you know, 85 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: protect themselves, or everybody's going to understand how joyous it 86 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: is to find your people online and to make these connections. 87 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: And you know, a day would go by, and a 88 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: month would go by, and a year would go by, 89 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: and a decade would go by, and then you would 90 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: still not have good tools or you would still not 91 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: have a way of discovering I mean, the example I 92 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: always think of was this, This is sort of a 93 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: minor one, but there were photo sharing apps in by 94 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: like two thousand and two or two thousand and three 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: that were pretty good. Before that, you would have to 96 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: like literally scan like film photos, right, And then people 97 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: were like, no, there's digital cameras. We're going to put 98 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: these online. And some of the early ones were called 99 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: Photoonet and Flicker, and those are the first ones. I 100 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: felt like, oh, no, you know, you have communities online. 101 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: And pretty soon they realized, wait, people are tagging locations 102 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: on these and even some of these cameras actually know 103 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: your location, like they had GPS by that time, and 104 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: so like, no, we got to take that out because 105 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: people are going to stock each other. 106 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 3: It's going to be creepy. 107 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: And I think Flicker was the first one, and it 108 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,119 Speaker 1: was like really the first like kind of social network 109 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: around photos that felt like, you know, like what we 110 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: all do on Instagram every day now. And so they're like, Nope, 111 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: we're going to take out location. We can't have people 112 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: creeping on each other, and we're going to do the 113 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: right thing. And this is literally twenty plus years ago 114 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: they figured out the right thing to do. And I 115 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: kid you not. Literally every year since then, somebody has 116 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: launched a new photo sharing app that includes the location 117 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: from the photos that it gets from your camera and 118 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: does not take the location out. And then somebody like 119 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: creeps on somebody else and they realize, oh gosh, we 120 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: should take the location out. And it's like groundhog Day, 121 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: Like nobody ever learns this lesson, and it's always some 122 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: dude who's like, gosh, you know, why wouldn't I want 123 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: my location out there? I didn't understand, and and I 124 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: just like every time, I'm like, you know, there is 125 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: like this is a lesson that we have learned, Like 126 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: this you can just you could just look like you 127 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: could just google it. It gets out there, and and 128 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm always like, you know, this time, for. 129 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: Sure they're going to learn. And in the twentieth straight 130 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 3: year that it happened, I was like, no, they're just 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: never going. 132 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: To learn, believe it or not. E Neil and I 133 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: were talking before or Instagram's disastrous rollout of an opt 134 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: in location sharing feature. So when you posted a photo 135 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: on Instagram, if you opt in, your location would automatically 136 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: show up on a map, and the public reaction to 137 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: this was not good. Instagram really could not have handled 138 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: it worse. And the overwhelming question I was left with 139 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: was who exactly was asking for this feature from Instagram 140 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: in the first place. We know how this story ends, 141 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: and people just don't learn. That's something that I really 142 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: appreciated about your work is that I read your blog 143 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: and oftentimes you're like ask stepping back and asking the 144 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 2: question of do we actually want this? Or is anybody 145 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: asking for this thing? Like, is this new tech thing 146 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: that everybody is trying to make us think is going 147 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: to be great? Does anybody want this? Who was asking 148 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: for this? That's a question. I feel like we could 149 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: benefit from asking a little bit more. Is this actually 150 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: serving a need that somebody has articulated? 151 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm you know, I'm hoping. And the thing is, like, 152 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my 153 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: whole life, and I I was lucky I got a 154 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: you know, a computer when I was a kid. 155 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: And this is back in the. 156 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: Eighties when that was rare, and and you know, my 157 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: my my folks were as immigrants, they were just like 158 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, scraping by and saving for us to get 159 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: a computer, and so I was really appreciative. So I 160 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: really I still feel lucky, like I can get a, 161 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, a new phone every couple of years, and 162 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: I I geek out about it, like I'm not, you know, 163 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't be more protect but I also am like 164 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: it does have to be for something, like it's not 165 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: just for its own sake. And so part of the 166 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: reason I'm I'm you know, skeptical or critical of it 167 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: is because I like it, right, Like I don't want 168 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: it to just be mindless, because I like to take 169 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: it apart. I like to see how it works like that. 170 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: That's part of appreciating it, you know. And I think 171 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: it's sort of like, you know, like like enjoying a 172 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: good meal, Like you don't just shovel it in your face, 173 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: right like you know, You're like, I want to taste it, 174 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: you know, or or you know, like anything that's really 175 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: great that you love, you sort of want to sit 176 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: there and enjoy, like you almost are like you know, 177 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: whatever you're at a concert, You're like, I don't want 178 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: it to be over, you know, or a great movie, 179 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: And and I think that's kind of it is like 180 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: that that mindlessness around the tech is this, I don't 181 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: think they even love it, and and so I think 182 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: that's some of what I'm so you know, resentful over 183 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: sometimes is some of these folks making the terrible tech 184 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: that that that's creepy or that does terrible things with 185 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:34,239 Speaker 1: your data, or that's just thoughtless, that makes these communities 186 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: that are that people are being horrible to each other 187 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: on I think that people making it don't love tech, 188 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: like I think that's how you end up there. And 189 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm very I am resentful of it because I'm like, 190 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: you know what you're You're lucky to get to do this. 191 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: I feel lucky to get to do this, to be 192 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: making you know, even still today, like I get to 193 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: make I have a website I've been working on for 194 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: twenty five plus years. I get to write stuff on 195 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: the weekends. I still tinker it, like I still am 196 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: messing with like the style of it and the designs. 197 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, ten people looking at it's like 198 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: nobody looking at it. And I still feel lucky to 199 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: get to do it. And you know, I think these 200 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: people that get one hundred million dollars to make an app, 201 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: I think they take it for granted they don't feel lucky. 202 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: To get to do it, And Neil says, there used 203 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: to be a time where the decent, thoughtful people in 204 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: tech had an easier time rising to the top and 205 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: taking up space. But then game the tycoons. They erased 206 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: the work of the smarter, more diverse creators and kind 207 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: of convinced us that technology only happens at a handful 208 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: of giant companies made by a handful of tech tycoons, 209 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 2: and none of that. And Eil says, it's true. So 210 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: what changed? How did we get here? What do you 211 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: think happened to get us to this point? 212 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many things. I mean the easy 213 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: answer is, you know, it became the biggest industry in 214 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: the world, right and it used to be a place 215 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: for hobbyists, and you know that that's the easy answer. 216 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: It's it's a true answer, but but it sort of 217 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: mirrors so. 218 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 3: Many other things. 219 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: You know, I'm a big music fan, and I always look 220 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: at that as one example, right, which is, you know, 221 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: I think anybody who loves music can think of a 222 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: undersung artist that they love, like a local indie artist 223 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: or or even you know, live in New York City, 224 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: and I can go on a subway platform and see 225 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: somebody who blows me away, you know, just an incredible voice, 226 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: and you're just like, wow, this person. You know, everybody 227 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: in the world should hear them. And you're like, they're 228 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: they're a better singer than somebody I can hear, you know, 229 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: on the radio or something. And and and so you know, 230 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: it's not always fair, like the it's not mapping almost 231 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: to talent, right or skill and and and so. 232 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 3: Some of that is, like I said, it's just commercialism. 233 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: It's just like there's the maturity of an industry is 234 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: there's going to be a handful of giant companies. But 235 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: I think it's also familiar, right. I do use the 236 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: food analogy a lot, which is that we have a 237 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, a handful of giant fast food tech companies, 238 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, if I'm in the airport, 239 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have McDonald's and it's fine, you know what 240 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: I mean, But I'm not having that every meal, you know, 241 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: like I would not feel good to have that every meal. 242 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: And you know, the answer that people are familiar with 243 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: is like, okay, well, if you don't like McDonald's, have 244 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: Burger King. It's like that is not the answer. Right, 245 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: You've got to have a home cooked meal, and you've 246 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: got to have your family recipes, and you've got to 247 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: have your memories of sitting down to a meal with 248 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: your loved ones, right, And that the how many of 249 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: the best meals or the best memories of your life 250 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: are in the kitchen with your family, right. And it's 251 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 1: not even sitting down to the meal. It was in 252 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: the kitchen cooking, right. And I think about that and tech, 253 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: which is that I have so many of the best 254 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: memories of my technical life building stuff with people that 255 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: I care about that have become my closest friends. I'm 256 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: not kidding, it's the truth, right, is that I can remember, 257 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, building a website, building an app with people 258 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: that I genuinely love that we were bonded by. Like 259 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: we're going to put something out in the world, and 260 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: it might not be something that you know a billion 261 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: people use, but it is something that we put our 262 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: hearts into and that we care about, and we know 263 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: we're going to find other people who care about it. 264 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I had this experience as we record this 265 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: over the weekend, and I had built an app with 266 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: a friend of mine, geinutupany that was about your social 267 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: media activity, like how to make it more meaningful. And 268 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: this was a decade ago and we had to shut 269 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: it down, like it didn't succeed as a business because 270 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: you were trying to get your data from Twitter and 271 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Instagram and they wouldn't let us keep getting to data 272 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: back then, like they you know, they were like lock 273 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: that down. And you know, it was bittersweet, like we 274 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: tried to make go of it, didn't succeed. I don't 275 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not lamenting that too much. And over 276 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: the weekend I got this message on blue Sky that 277 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: a developer had built a tribute to it using blue 278 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: Sky where he was doing the same kind of analytics 279 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: that we had done for Twitter using blue Sky and 280 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: our app was called think Up and he's like, this 281 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: is my tribute to think Up and I I was 282 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: so touched, like I genuinely got choked up. And I 283 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: was just like, somebody remember the app that we made, 284 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: you know, this is ten years ago, and made like 285 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: his own version of it and sent me the link 286 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: and it just out of the blue, you know, and 287 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: somebody remembers what you made. And that was like you know, 288 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: there's no that's not a you know, that's not an 289 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: app that anybody's still running. That is not something that 290 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: you know, ever got an IPO or got acquir by 291 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: anybody like. That's not something that has any of the 292 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: things that people think of as a success in tech. 293 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: But it had heart and it was something that evidently 294 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: the community meant something to people, you know. And so 295 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: I think people don't think of the Internet as that thing, 296 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: but that is what the Internet mostly is. Most communities 297 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: on the Internet are healthy, and people don't want to 298 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: believe that because they see these giant ones that are 299 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: full of toxic behavior, that are full of this unhealthiness. 300 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: Most of the communities that have ever existed on the 301 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: Internet are healthy. Most of the websites that ever existed 302 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: on the Internet were made by a person for people 303 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: that they knew, right. Most of the meals are home cooked, 304 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: and so I think that's something that people really forget, 305 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: and I think people could tell that that wasn't a 306 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: made with love by people that cared about each other, 307 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: for a community that cared about each other. And that's 308 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: what most of the Internet has been for most of 309 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: its history. 310 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: And there is no reason it cannot be that. 311 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: Again, that's such a good reminder of how of the 312 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: legacy of people who cared about making thoughtful shit online, 313 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 2: Like we really owned the Internet for a while there, 314 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: and even if it doesn't seem like it today, Like 315 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: that's real. 316 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. 317 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: At our back and Neila's right, it's very easy to 318 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: fall for false nostalgia for the early days of the Internet, 319 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: which definitely had its problems, but y'all, it was also 320 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: so much fun. Remember the first time you stumbled upon 321 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: a weird little website or a weird pocket of the 322 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: Internet that made no sense but you loved for some reason, 323 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: Like websites that were just weird little flash cartoons. There 324 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: was a time in my life where the funniest thing 325 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: in the whole world to me was a loop of 326 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: the actor Sean Commery from the movie Finding Forrester saying 327 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: you're the man now dog for some reason, and I 328 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: don't know, it was stupid, but it was great, and 329 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 2: somehow it was ours. I was sort of taking a 330 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: trip down memory lane as you were speaking about what 331 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 2: it felt like to stumble upon a website or a 332 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: little pocket of the Internet where you felt your people 333 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: were showing up there and it felt good or you 334 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: were excited about something. 335 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 1: And I feel like, you know, we've all had that, 336 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't take much to prompt people about what 337 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: they remember of the good stuff, you know, And there's 338 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: so many examples. 339 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 3: I was watching. 340 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: A you know, a YouTube video over the weekend and 341 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: it was just like about a film or something, and 342 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: the woman who was hosting it just offhandedly mentioned making 343 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: a MySpace site, you know, back in the day. And 344 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 1: she just sort of said it like in passing, and 345 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, it's thirty forty million people had made a 346 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: MySpace site back and they were all coders, right, like 347 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: they had to do code to do that. And like 348 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: those folks were all still around like they did like 349 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: get disappeared, you know what I mean, Like like they 350 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: didn't get fano snapped, Like they're still all here, and 351 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: and so like there is still a latent cultural memory 352 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: of like I made the Internet, Like all those people 353 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: made the Internet and they know how to do it. 354 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: They still got the ability to do it, like they 355 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 3: can come back. 356 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: And so I think that part of like the Internet 357 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: is something we make, not just something that happens to us. 358 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: I think is is. 359 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: Still there and and you know, it doesn't mean that 360 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: we all have to become coders or something. I just 361 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,239 Speaker 1: think the sense of that it could be something that 362 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: is good to us and good for us, that that 363 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: feels a little bit more homegrown and that is not 364 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: inflicted upon us. I think that is something that we 365 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: could have a you know, a cultural memory of and 366 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: that that can prompt us to ask more of it, right, 367 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: that that can help us believe that it doesn't have 368 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: to be, like I said, as toxic as it's become, 369 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 1: or as extractive as it's become, or that it's going 370 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: to constantly be surveiled us or taking our data or 371 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: doing things without our consent. I mean, I think that's 372 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: one of those words that I just keep coming back 373 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: to over and over, especially in the sort of AI 374 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: era is. 375 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: Consent. You know, I think we just do. 376 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: Not hear that word in an internet or technology context 377 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: nearly often enough, and it is the fundamental framing that 378 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: we really should be thinking about and so many of 379 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: our interactions with technology. 380 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: I would argue that there's like a cultural dynamic now 381 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 2: where when you show up to a no online platform 382 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: or something that there's just an understanding that you don't 383 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: there is no consent, Like this is the cost of 384 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: using it, Like, if you want to, you know, post 385 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: your pictures, you have to also share your location with 386 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: a million people that you don't know. Like I think 387 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: that we have a warmpth relationship where it's like, oh, 388 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 2: the tech companies and the people that run them get 389 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: to make all the decisions that can take whatever they 390 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: want from me. They can benefit from what they take 391 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 2: however they want. And i' don't got to say it. 392 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: If I don't like it, don't show up online, don't 393 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: use these platforms. We should be able to expect more, 394 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 2: and in fact, I think we deserve more. 395 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's coercive, it's manipulative. I mean, I think, you 396 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: know the sort of the classic example is the you know, 397 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the social network, would sucker putting 398 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: up the pictures of you know, all these women around 399 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: the campus at Harvard that he's he's started rating and 400 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: and you know those images are not gathered with consent either, right, 401 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: and and the you know I say this is like, 402 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: you know, I've been the CEO of a of a 403 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: tech company multiple times in my career, and one of 404 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: the things you do is you created terms of service, right, 405 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: and you know, there's very little case law establishing whether 406 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: terms of services are actually enforceable at all. And one 407 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: of the reasons why is almost every terms of service, 408 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: this is a little secret to tell you, as somebody 409 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: who's been on the hook for these, almost all these 410 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: terms of service are basically we even change this at 411 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: any time. 412 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: I'm like, where they do that at? Like what kind 413 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: of contract? 414 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: What? How do I've never signed anything in my life 415 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: that's like and we might just change it, like what 416 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: what is that? 417 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: And and if we. 418 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: Change it, we might let you know, maybe maybe maybe 419 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: maybe okay. 420 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: Like that's not a thing. 421 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: That is not a thing. 422 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: There's no contract in the world that works like that. 423 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: That's not a thing. 424 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: And and like I'm sorry, I'm just like, you know, 425 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: and like I said, I've written some of those, so 426 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: I probably should, you know, have some. 427 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: Feelings about it. 428 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: But I just every time we put one of those out, 429 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know, I don't know about this, 430 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: And so we try to you know, and fairness, like 431 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: I tried to be very thoughtful about that, and we 432 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: always did, you know, advanced notice of changes on other 433 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: companies that I you know, it. 434 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 3: Was leading, but I think. 435 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: It's it's tough because that is the overwriting principle for 436 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: all these platforms. And I remember Facebook used to have 437 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: a thing. People won't remember this because this is more 438 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: than ten years ago. Facebook used to have a thing 439 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: where they would have a like a governing council where 440 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: people could weigh in on terms of service change, right, 441 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: and they're like, if more than thirty percent of our 442 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: users don't like this, we're not going to do it, right. 443 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: And it was like this, like, you know, you get 444 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: to vote, and it never happened, like they never put 445 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: anything up to a vote. Of course they didn't, right 446 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: and then, and this always reminded me of the I'm 447 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: a real nerd, but at the beginning of Star Wars, 448 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: the first one a New Hope, they're they're like, you know, 449 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: the empresses all the Senate. 450 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 3: It's like the first thing he does. 451 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: They're like, now that we have the Death Star, we 452 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: don't need to worry about that anymore. And literally, like 453 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: you know, Zuckerberg is like, yeah, yeah, we're not doing 454 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: the voting on the terms of service thing anymore. 455 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 3: That's like the emperors all dissolved the Senate. 456 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: So I just think about, like they stop the pretense 457 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: that you. 458 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: Could even vote on the terms of service, and and. 459 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: I'm like, why did they even bother going to right? 460 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 2: Right? 461 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: They can change it at any time on their own unilaterally. 462 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 3: What are you going to do? Leave Facebook? 463 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 2: Right? 464 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's the other part is like even 465 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: if there were because people say, well, why don't you 466 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: close your account? And and you know, I think about 467 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: this where like, you know, I have family. My families 468 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: were one of the most rural parts of India, and 469 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, the only reasonable way to communicate with them 470 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: is what's happened? 471 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: You know that? 472 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: And what am I going to not talk to my cousins? Right, 473 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: like not be in touch with my family? That that 474 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: is too much coercive power, an absurd thing to dangle 475 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: over somebody's head. Is like you're not going to talk 476 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: to your family again? That's a I think it's a 477 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 1: violation of the Geneva Conventions of torture right to inflict 478 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: on somebody. So no, there actually isn't a way to 479 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: opt out of the terms of service, Like you are 480 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: not going to disconnect people from their world, from their 481 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: livelihood from their families. And when I say livelihood, I 482 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: literally mean it. Like in the case of my family, 483 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: they are in a very rural area and they're rice farmers, 484 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: and they're in the rice patty and so they use 485 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: what's app to get the price of rice at the 486 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: market that is often twelve hours away where they trade 487 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: their rice, and so that is a you know, livelihood 488 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: sustaining information path for them. They're not going to be like, 489 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: we don't like the terms of service, therefore we're not 490 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: trading rice this season, right, So, like these are not 491 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: like I don't think of most Americans. There are people 492 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: in the wealthy world world really understand the level of 493 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: infrastructure that these things present for the rest of the world. 494 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: But like, what are they going to say, No, we 495 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: read the terms of service and we're not going to 496 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: really agree to this change, you know. And so I 497 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: think those things are like these legal contracts are are 498 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: functioning as government for billions of people around the world, 499 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: and that level of course of power, we have to 500 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: have some kind of corrective around, and that's not the 501 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: place for these companies to be playing. That's a completely 502 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: different thing than they're supposed to be. And what we 503 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: used to have back in the day was we would 504 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: make a you know, at what we call it a 505 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: technical level, an open standard, and this is what like, 506 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, on the Internet, we just have HTML and 507 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: that's what we can make a web page and anybody 508 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: can make a web page, and we would make these 509 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: systems work together. And even like podcasts, right, so like 510 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: a podcast or like listen to this podcast and whatever 511 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: app you want, great, so I can listen to this. 512 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 3: On all my different devices. 513 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: And that's what the you know, the WhatsApps or even 514 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: the facebooks or the Instagrams of the world should be, like, 515 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: use this on whatever app or whatever platform you want. 516 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 1: And if we have those kinds of systems, then they 517 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: don't have that same course of power, and we can 518 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: sort of pick and choose which companies and which platforms 519 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: we want to work with. That's how the Internet was 520 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: supposed to work. That starts to have that you know, 521 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: that corrective power where we can you know, make choices 522 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: about what we're doing and be a little bit less, 523 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, getting our arms twisted. 524 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: We got to talk about this because you know how 525 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: at the end of every episode of this very podcast, 526 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: I say, listen to there are no girls on the internet, 527 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 2: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 528 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: your podcasts. Truly, this is not just something I say. 529 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 2: It means something something kind of revolutionary. Actually, as a 530 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 2: Neil puts it, being able to say or wherever you 531 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 2: get your podcasts is a radical statement because what it 532 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: represents is the triumph of exactly the kind of technology 533 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: that's supposed to be impossible, open empowering technology that's not 534 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: owned by any one company, that can't be controlled by 535 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: anyone company, and that allows people to have ownership over 536 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 2: their work and their relationship with their audience. Honestly, that 537 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: dynamic is why I became a podcaster in the first place. 538 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought up that example. This is 539 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: like a pet thing for me as a podcaster. But 540 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: I did read your piece about how you know at 541 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 2: the end of every podcast, I say like get it 542 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: wherever you find your podcasts, and you're you talked about 543 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: how it's like a radical it's like a quietly radical 544 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 2: thing to say that is ubiquitous in the podcast space, 545 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: and that it is how technology is meant to be, right, 546 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: Like it's empowering that it's not owned by one company, 547 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: and it can't be controlled by any one company. You know, 548 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: that's not the ownership model. And I don't know something 549 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: about that is very empowering that if let's say, for 550 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: whatever reason, like I had beep with Spotify, Spotify alone 551 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: could not like end this podcast. That's empowering. 552 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: Yes, it's huge, and you know it's funny too, because 553 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: that's why you also don't hear people, you know, fussing 554 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: about like, oh, you know, why is my podcast being censored? 555 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: And like and I and I can't go up the 556 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: podcast charts, right because because anybody can just make a 557 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: podcast and put it out there, and and and so 558 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: it's it's the way it's supposed to work, right, and 559 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: and I think that's a really powerful thing. And it 560 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: also proves that it can work, like these open systems 561 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 1: can work. And I think that the thing people that 562 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: are skeptical understandably say, well, you have to have a 563 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: big company, because that's the only way that you're going 564 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: to get in front of millions of people or billions 565 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: of people. It has to be you know, it takes 566 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: this huge infrastructure and these giant companies to really reach 567 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: a big audience and to you know, sustain something and 568 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: and you know, I understand why they feel that way, 569 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: because that's what they've seen from the you know, youtubes 570 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: of the world and the Instagrams of the world. And 571 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: then it's so helpful to have these counterexamples, which is like, no, no, no, 572 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: there are these amazing you know platforms, these amazing media 573 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: you know examples that we can point to that are 574 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: as good as anything out there, that are using open 575 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: systems and that are easy and that we listen to 576 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: every day. And and that's how the Internet was supposed 577 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: to work. And they're still vibrant and they're still active. 578 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: And I think even you know, the rise of email 579 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: newsletters in the last several years, where everybody's you know, 580 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: everybody know is subscribing to a couple and again that's 581 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: just a totally open system that, like email is decades 582 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: old and still works every day, and I read them 583 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: every day, you know, like friends write them. And I 584 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: think those are just great reminders that like these you know, 585 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: technical architectures of the Internet were built really really wisely, 586 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: and they have adapted so much and evolved so much. 587 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: And also they've been constantly growing too. They're not stuck 588 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: where they were in like the eighties or the nineties, 589 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: Like they've continued to evolve. And I think one of 590 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: the things that's so fun and interesting too is they're 591 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: like they're just made by regular people, you know, the 592 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: the like podcasts, like a lot of the people that 593 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: pioneered them. There's a technologist State Whiner, who was one 594 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,239 Speaker 1: of the first people that created the spec and you know, 595 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: he's like just a guy who lives here in New 596 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: York and he's a Mets fan. And like one of 597 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: the people that helped, uh create it, that speck was 598 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: Aaron Schwartz, who was a real pioneer of this stuff. 599 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: And you know, uh, he was a friend and I 600 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: missing me passed away, you know, more than a decade ago, 601 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: and and and and you know, just to have like 602 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: these people who are human and and pains in the 603 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: ass and you know, and and creative and and they're 604 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: not companies, you know what I mean, They're not billion 605 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: billion dollar companies, and they're not global titans. 606 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 3: They're just you know humans. 607 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: I think that that's just part of it too, is 608 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: that people can create things that have that kind of 609 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: impact and and so I think that that really sort 610 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: of proves out the every part of it, Like we 611 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: can be people that make podcasts, we can be people 612 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: that make the technology that makes podcasts. You know, we 613 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: can make the whole thing, the whole way down. The 614 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: whole Internet is made of people. And I think it's 615 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: easy to forget that because we've been taught these myths 616 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: that it is all these giant corporations and that there 617 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: is a you know, also the myth of like these uh, 618 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: you know, these billionaire founders. And it's like, now those 619 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: dudes are sitting on top of work that regular folks 620 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: made and and and their platforms exist because of the 621 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: regular people on them. And I think that's a real 622 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: important story to keep repeating. 623 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: Oh God, I have so much to say. First of all, 624 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: my first ever job in podcasting was on a podcast 625 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: that Aaron Schwartz was the co founder of called The 626 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 2: Flaming Sort of Justice. It was all about like using 627 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 2: the power of the Internet to tell like social justice 628 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: stories with all the sort of grandeur of David and 629 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: Goliath myths, right like uh, And it was back on 630 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: the early early early days of podcasting, so like nobody 631 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 2: knew what the fuck we were doing. We were like 632 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: it just was. But it was so fun to be 633 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: in a space where, you know, we were just making 634 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: something and like it didn't really if we didn't really 635 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 2: have the idea in our head that it super mattered 636 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: how many people listen. Like today, when I put a 637 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: podcast out, I'm like, how many downloads did it get? Right? 638 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: That is, I didn't have the wherewithal to like really 639 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 2: internalize that as a metric that I needed to be 640 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: thinking about. It was just such a fun time, And 641 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: you know, I think this is like one of the 642 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: reasons why I am. I think you're such an interesting 643 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: person in the space, because you really do see the 644 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: way that it's not that that tech is not just 645 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: like building stuff. It's also about culture and policy and 646 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: art and expression and how humans exist and fit with 647 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: one another. Do you feel like that's an ethos that 648 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: we kind of are losing even though we are keeping 649 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: it alive and around, but that like it becomes harder 650 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 2: to see for all of those parts. 651 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: Yes, and no. 652 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: What I will say is I think in an absolute number, 653 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: more people believe in technology with the soul than ever. 654 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: The challenge is there's so many more billions of people 655 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: online that it gets lost to the noise, right, but 656 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: the the communities of people who are trying to build 657 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: good tech or who are building fun weird art projects online, 658 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: or who are trying to you know, have some soul 659 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: and what they're doing when they put stuff up on 660 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: the internet. It is more people all over the world 661 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: doing that than was there five years ago, or ten 662 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: years ago or twenty five years ago. But there's so 663 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: much other noise right that it can get lost or 664 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: it can get overshadowed. And so I think the challenge 665 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: is for all of us to find each other and 666 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: to amplify each other, and to lift each other up, 667 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: and to remind each other that it's there, you know, 668 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: despite the rest of it, the cacophony of the rest 669 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,239 Speaker 1: of it. But the actual number of people doing it, 670 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: I think is bigger than it's ever been. And you know, 671 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: that's a hard balance to strike because I think, you know, 672 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: back in the day, that's all there was, and so 673 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: it had an outsized presence. And you know, I think 674 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: there's so many analogies of like. 675 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 3: Like I said, I you know, being a music fan. 676 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: I live on the Lower East Side, and and you know, 677 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: there was a time when there was a music scene 678 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: that was like you know these you know, the indie 679 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: punk scene and early hip hop and and you know 680 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,879 Speaker 1: the sort of you had to really really love that 681 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: music those music scenes to be there, and because there 682 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: was zero money in it, right, Like you know, there 683 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: was nobody except the people in that club with you, 684 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: and and talking to people who are like, we still 685 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: have altars in the neighborhood who were there then, and 686 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: and talking to those folks and they're just like, you know, 687 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: you had to really believe and and they still love 688 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: the music, right and and so they're still listening to 689 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: the music, and they still are in touch with some 690 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: of those artists who were there for the music then. 691 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 3: And so they're not mad that hip hop is global. 692 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: They're not mad that everybody knows what happened with those 693 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 1: punk artists, right, And you know, they're not upset that 694 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: like I was, you know, talking to one of the 695 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: folks who's in Blondie, that was one of the bands 696 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: that broke out from CBGB's on the Lower East Side. 697 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: They're not mad that everybody knows those songs. But they 698 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: still have it there, right, And they still have it 699 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: in that scene, And I think that's kind of it 700 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: is like to hold true to you know, this was 701 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: a scene, right, The Internet was a scene, and so 702 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: as much does any music scene or art scene or 703 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: anything else, and say like this still exists. There is 704 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: still a community for people that want to make the Internet, 705 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: you know, with their hints right and be homegrown. And 706 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: we have to nurture that and remind each other of that. 707 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: But I am so heartened by seeing you know, young 708 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: creators or early career creators, or you know, people of 709 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: any age but that are new to the sort of 710 00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: human Internet coming in. 711 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know. 712 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: This was here because I was you know, in the 713 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: normal Internet that everybody else is on it. That's that's you know, 714 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: louder and more vibrant or more. 715 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: Visible to people. 716 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: And so I think just reminding each other that there 717 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: is still that that human part there, I think is 718 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: really key. But I don't think it's ever gone away, 719 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's ever been silenced. And 720 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, there's so many examples even of just like 721 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, take something like Craigslist, right, like you can't 722 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: kill it, you know, like cockroach website, like you can't 723 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: kill it, and and and you know it's never changed 724 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: and it's still there and they totally totally investags of 725 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: the human Internet. But like you know next door, sure, 726 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: you know Facebook, Marketplace, sure, but you can't kill Craigslist. 727 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that sort of epitomizes that, 728 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: which is like this is like the equivalent of that 729 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: for you know, the people powered Internet is there are 730 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: people just making these cool, little weird things that are 731 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: human and these little forums and these old you know, 732 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: these little art projects and all those things. 733 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 3: I think that's still there. 734 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: And so I think that's part of what I want to, 735 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: you know, really help people discover and remember is that 736 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: it's all around and and and then how do you 737 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: help people find it when all they've known is the same. 738 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 3: Five apps on their phone for all the time they've 739 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 3: been online. 740 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 2: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 741 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 2: I don't think I need to tell anybody that things 742 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: feel especially bleak right now. And if you're anything like me, 743 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: maybe you have to fight the feeling that nothing good 744 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: will ever happen again. But what if we're actually on 745 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 2: the edge of something better. People are sick of algorithms, 746 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: they're sick of AI slop, sick of tech leaders, who 747 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 2: clearly don't care. So what if all that frustration, everything 748 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,959 Speaker 2: we're fed up with could spark something new You've talked 749 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: about or written about how it kind of feels like 750 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: we're in two thousand and four again, We're like a 751 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 2: cool sort of wave of people of exactly what you're 752 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 2: talking about could be right around the corner. Do you 753 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 2: still feel that way? 754 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit. I mean it's still fragile, right. 755 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to be, you know, a polyandnat about it. Like, 756 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it's like all of a sudden, everybody's 757 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: going to get back to building a Geocity's website again. 758 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 3: But I think I'm very cautious. 759 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: I don't believe in too much nostalgia, Like I don't 760 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 1: think there's a good old days. I think the old 761 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: days were bad in their own way, But I think 762 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: how do you make something that you excitedly look forward 763 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: to instead of like what are we fearfully running away from? 764 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: And the things that were positive about that old Internet 765 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: in terms of it being wide open and there being 766 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: a chance for people to build new things that are 767 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: wide open, I think that is true again, and that 768 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: for people who may not have been you know, maybe 769 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,280 Speaker 1: on the Internet then, or paying attention then, or didn't 770 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: understand what was wide open then. I think the way 771 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: to articulate what the two thousand and four Internet was 772 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: about was there was no dominant search engine. There was 773 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: no dominant photo sharing, there was no dominant video site, 774 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: there was no dominant social network. 775 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 3: There was no set pattern. 776 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: Of all the tools and the apps we use every day. 777 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: And if you think about your behaviors right now, you 778 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: very likely swipe through the same three or four or 779 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: five apps on your phone all day, every day, and 780 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: you probably have been for the last many years. And 781 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,919 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you've added one app in the last 782 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 1: couple of years, you know, and within those apps there's 783 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: a feed that is largely chosen for you by an 784 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: algorithm that you cannot see. And that has been true 785 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: for the majority people on the Internet since about two 786 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: thousand and four or five. And that's when the majority 787 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 1: of people in the world came online. And you know, 788 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: there are some of us who are as old as 789 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: I am who can remember the Internet before that, and 790 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: like I said, it's not good old days. There were 791 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: a lot of bad things about that Internet, but one 792 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: of the things that had a lot of potential. There 793 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: was people building other experiences, and especially people who were 794 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: not giant corporations building some of those other experiences. And 795 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: so I think that is the thing that is up 796 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: for grabs right now because we have seen this extraordinary 797 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 1: thing happen which one I could not fathom, which is 798 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: that you know, the biggest search engine in the world 799 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: making their search worse voluntarily. Well that's I didn't see 800 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: that coming. 801 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 2: Didn't have that on the Bingo card. 802 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: No, I mean like the biggest own goal like maybe 803 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: in the history of the Internet, Like that's why. And 804 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: then and then you know, people already being fed up 805 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 1: with with you know, Facebook and their feed there like okay, sure, 806 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: and I think fatigue with feeds in general, I think 807 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: people are kind of over it. You know, they know 808 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: that they're tired of swiping and scrolling, like they kind 809 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: of burn out on that and feel a little bit 810 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: like this is a lot of empty calories for my brain. 811 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: Like I think people are very aware of that and 812 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: ready for something else. And then even just like other behaviors, 813 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: I think people are really ready to push back on 814 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: you know, the AI slop. I think on a number 815 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: of grounds. One is they don't like seeing, you know, 816 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: their elder relative's brains cooked by obviously made up stuff. 817 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 1: I think they don't like seeing their favorite artists having 818 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: their things taken without consent. I think they have a 819 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: lot of ambivalence about, you know, everything from the environmental 820 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: impacts to the other things that are happening around AI. 821 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: I think all that stuff has only raise the temperature 822 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 1: about you know, some of these misgivings and then just 823 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: being ready for something new, you know, I mean, I 824 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: think sort of saying like where is the good stuff? 825 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: Whereas the things that I like that I feel positive about. 826 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 1: All that stuff just sort of primes us for maybe 827 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: there's going to be something new and that you know, 828 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: being in this business a long time and being in 829 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: the tech space a long time, you can just sort 830 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: of sense it. You can feel it when there's going 831 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: to be you know, new players or new interests arising, 832 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: and so all of that coming together along with As 833 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: a nerd, I see so many new technical capabilities that 834 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: we haven't seen in a generation. And you know, I 835 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: won't nerd out too much, but just the things that 836 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: are available to programmers to build with feel like building 837 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: blocks that we haven't seen since you know, a generation ago, 838 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: and that's exciting to me. Like as a coder, I'm 839 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: playing with things. You know, some of it is around 840 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: the edges of the AI stuff, but just like you know, 841 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,919 Speaker 1: technical things about how we can like share data and 842 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 1: get people to be able to collaborate together. I'm like, 843 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 1: oh wow, there's so many creative tools that we can 844 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: build there. And I see all those building blocks that 845 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 1: I just think, Man, somebody is going to fit these 846 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: together in a new way, and all of a sudden, 847 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: like the creative people of the world are going to 848 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: be inventing new stuff. 849 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 2: So it sounds like when you think of the future 850 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 2: of tech, you're actually quite optimistic and hopeful. 851 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 3: I am, I am. I can't not be. 852 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: And one is I have to be just for my 853 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: mental well being, like you know, you can't it can't. 854 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 3: I can't help but be. But also. 855 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: I think of, you know, as America, I think of 856 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, especially Global South, and they 857 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: are really ready to be free from the American centric Internet. 858 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: It's very obvious, very obvious for all the you know, 859 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: policy reasons and all the obvious reasons, and and that's 860 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: what the Internet wants to be it was always designed 861 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,439 Speaker 1: to be decentralized, and so there's going to be innovation there. 862 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: And then I think the creatives of the world and 863 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: they're saying, wow, these platforms are like, like I said, 864 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: taking my stuff without consent for AI, or they're you know, 865 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,919 Speaker 1: not letting me win through the algorithm and people can't 866 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: discover my content or all the other things. They're gonna say, well, 867 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: maybe I should have my own site or I should 868 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: have my own place for my content. So the creatives 869 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: of the world are going that way. That's another signal. 870 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 3: And you know, and on and on. 871 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: There's all these different things that are sort of pushing 872 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: towards people having more agency and autonomy and control. That's 873 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,959 Speaker 1: just a signal, you know what I mean. I don't 874 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: need to know where it's headed to know that it's 875 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: going somewhere. And I just love that energy. I just 876 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: love seeing that happen. And for me, I'm like, I'm 877 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, I'm like a middle aged dad. I'm washed, 878 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: like I'm not supposed to be the one that knows. 879 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: I just like I just need to follow, like I'm 880 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: excited to see it. I should be, you know, I 881 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 1: should be the one that's just rooting for it and 882 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: helping it happen. I like being I like being the 883 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: elder statesman of it now, like I had the chance 884 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: to be, you know, at the forefront of it a 885 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: generation ago. I'm I'm excited to be the one who's 886 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,080 Speaker 1: wild buy what the next generation comes up with. 887 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, that brings me to my last question, which 888 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 2: is sort of a wild card speaking of creative, sort 889 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 2: of leading the way you and I are both big 890 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 2: print superman, I have to ask, like, what is it 891 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 2: about Prince that gets you that like draws you in. 892 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 3: Oh, there's so many things. I mean, that's you know, 893 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 3: that's a big question. I think. 894 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of parts, you know. I 895 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: think he touches on so many of the themes that 896 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 1: we've talked about. I think one is he comes from 897 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: a scene, a community, right the Twin Cities Minneapolis, you know, 898 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: especially you know, the black music community in the Twin 899 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: Cities is so specific of a place where you know, 900 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: they they were grounded in history, right, so they have 901 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, this this blues music scene and the jazz 902 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,160 Speaker 1: music scene that his parents were part of and that 903 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: they you know, they all sort of support each other 904 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: in I think that part is what sort of informs 905 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: his work. And I think that's sort of it's like 906 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: so tied to place and obviously like you know you 907 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,120 Speaker 1: have that, you know his dad was, you know, part 908 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: of the great migration comes from that blues tradition in Louisiana. 909 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: I think that part you see suffuse through his music. 910 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: I think that is well, I mean it's the greatest 911 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: American music tradition, right, So like that's this long history 912 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: and then you take what he. 913 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,280 Speaker 3: Does with it and like his pure cohort. 914 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: Right, So he's born in summer of fifty eight, so 915 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 1: is Michael Jackson, right, so is Madonna? Like this is 916 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: this like incredible through line. 917 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 3: And then he is. 918 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,760 Speaker 1: A technologist through and through right. The reason he's able 919 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: to record his own records is he learns to run 920 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: an automated console when he's a teenager, which is cutting 921 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: edge technology at that time. He's the first to have 922 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: the Lynn lm One drum machine, which is the first 923 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: to have a digital sample of drums, which is his 924 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: signature sound of Birth of the Minneapolis Sound is a 925 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: story of technology. He tweaks that drum machine beyond its parameters, 926 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: of what it's supposed to do. The reason that when 927 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: you hear something at nineteen ninety nine or when doves 928 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: Cry has a unique sound that nobody had heard on 929 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: the radio before, is he's tuning a drum machine past 930 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,360 Speaker 1: what it's supposed to be able to do, because he 931 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: is literally programming a computer to go beyond its limits. 932 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 1: And that is his innovation as a technologist. Right. That's 933 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: like he had, you know, the new iPhone. 934 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 3: Before it drops. 935 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 4: That's that's literally what he's doing, and and and then 936 00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 4: on and on into the Internet era right where he 937 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 4: pre Internet, right pre web. He's got a CD ROM 938 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 4: when that was cutting edge to deliver an interactive experience, 939 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 4: right around the time that he starts to fight for 940 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 4: control of his master recordings. 941 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,680 Speaker 3: And then you know, in. 942 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: The Twin Cities, the first Internet service provider ISP for 943 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,399 Speaker 1: dial up access called didstream was created by engineers who 944 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: worked at Paisley Park at his So the Internet access 945 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,000 Speaker 1: in the Twin Cities comes through his studio right by 946 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: people who work for prints, and you know, it's just 947 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,960 Speaker 1: like the beating heart of all innovations, or it goes 948 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: through there, and then you know he pioneers having everything 949 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 1: that we look at now, whether it's a Patreon or 950 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,120 Speaker 1: a Kickstarter. Like he has a membership fan club, he 951 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: has his own website. In fact, his first website in 952 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five is so early that he had to 953 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 1: have an instruction page explaining how to put a credit 954 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: card into the field for buying a CD from it 955 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,080 Speaker 1: because he was selling CDs on his website before Amazon. 956 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: Was Wow, that's how early he was. The Next year 957 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,440 Speaker 1: he does a crowdfunding for CDs on his website, and 958 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: that is. 959 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,120 Speaker 3: I want to say, eleven. 960 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: Years before Kickstarter existed. Something like, wow, long time, long 961 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: time before, and on and on and on. Right, he 962 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: does a you know, a membership club in two thousand 963 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,000 Speaker 1: and one, two thousand and two. That's like a Patreon now, right, 964 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: where the fans get first access to tickets. We got 965 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,279 Speaker 1: to go to his his pre shows and you know, 966 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: his sound checks for his concerts because we were members 967 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: of the fan clubs. I have to sit you know, 968 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: a row away from him in the audience when he 969 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: was playing at Lincoln Center. You know, it's just unbelievable, 970 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,400 Speaker 1: like the amount of access and that was because he 971 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: was on there. He was in the AOL chat rooms 972 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: with us in the early nineties, you know, and. 973 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 3: So like that part that's all separate. 974 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: From you know, unbelievable guitarist, you know, rock and Roll 975 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, writing top ten hits for you know 976 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,360 Speaker 1: a dozen other artists. That's all separate from forty albums 977 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,959 Speaker 1: that's all separate from you know, just unbelievable before where 978 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: that's all separate from you know, one hundred music videos 979 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: that's all separate from a thousand recorded songs of his 980 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: own deady released that's all separate from another two thousand 981 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,399 Speaker 1: songs in the vault. You know, like it's just the 982 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:09,439 Speaker 1: technological innovation alone is at a level I don't think 983 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: people could understand or fathom, just as a technology pioneer. 984 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: And you know, when he got his Webby Award, his 985 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: Lifetime Achievement Award in two thousand and six, you know, 986 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: he said, everything you think is true, and you know, 987 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,640 Speaker 1: I think that, and he wrote it on the wall 988 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: of his bedroom at Paisley Park, and I think he 989 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: sort of was talking about how you can imagine a world, 990 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,759 Speaker 1: you know that people can't yet conceive of. And that 991 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:42,880 Speaker 1: was the same speech I gave when I got my 992 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 1: Webby Lifetime Achievement Award as a tribet to him. 993 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 2: Full circle moment. That's so cool. I have toy like 994 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 2: as much as I appreciate your work in tech, talking 995 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 2: about the ways that princes a tech innovator is one 996 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 2: of my favorite things about what you do. And yeah, 997 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 2: I mean it's like why I love he always got 998 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,840 Speaker 2: to shit early somehow, like he like just like sold 999 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 2: stuff before anybody else did. 1000 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,400 Speaker 3: Knew how the system worked. Yes, that it worked, and 1001 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 3: he could see it. He can see it. 1002 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 1003 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 2: just want to say hi? You can read us at 1004 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 2: Hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts 1005 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 2: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 1006 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:27,799 Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Toad. 1007 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 2: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland 1008 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,400 Speaker 2: as our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and 1009 00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 2: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 1010 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 2: Bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate 1011 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 2: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 1012 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 2: check out the iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1013 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,160 Speaker 2: get your podcasts.