1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 2: Good morning, This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: I am delighted to welcome Paul Leonardi to Before Breakfast. 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: Paul is a professor at You See Santa Barbara and 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: the author of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion, Simple 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: Tools for Reclaiming Your Life. 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: So, Paul, welcome to the show. 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 3: Good morning Laura, nice to be here. 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so, why didn't you tell our listeners a little 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: bit about yourself. 15 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, as you mentioned, I'm a professor at you 16 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: See Santa Barbara. I've been a professor for about twenty years, 17 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 3: and during that time I've really spent my effort and 18 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 3: energy trying to understand how people and people who are 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: working in companies can use digital tools effectively to increase productivity, efficiency, 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 3: well being, etc. And there's a dark side. As we 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 3: both know that all of these tools do great things 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 3: for us, they also wear us out, and so a 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 3: big chunk of what I've been focusing on for the 24 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: last few years is trying to understand how do we 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 3: make sure that we're taking advantage of all the great 26 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 3: things these tools do for us at work and in 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: our personal lives and not get so worn out by them. All. 28 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: Right, Well, that leads us to the title of your book, 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: digital exhaustion. I'm sure you have been asked this a 30 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 2: million times, but what exactly is digital exhaustion? 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 3: Great question. I like to define it more by feeling 32 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: rather than just a definition. So play along with me here. 33 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: If you don't mind, have you felt as you sat 34 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 3: in front of your screen that the screen's kind of 35 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 3: like a tractor beam. It sucks you in that you're 36 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 3: scrolling and you're clicking, You're kind of feeling lack of energy. 37 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: You maybe look at your watch and you're like, what 38 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: have I been doing for the last ten minutes? You 39 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 3: know you need to send an email, you know you 40 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: should be replying to somebody on Instagram, but you kind 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 3: of don't want to, but you can't quite leave and 42 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: get up. If you've had those sorts of feelings before, 43 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: that's digital exhaustion in a nutshell, right, It's this kind 44 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 3: of pervasive feeling that I should be doing more, but 45 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 3: I can't quite pull away. But I'm not being productive 46 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: and it's kind of getting overwhelming. 47 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's an interesting way to look at it. 48 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: You know, I'm trying to figure out what exactly is 49 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 2: leading to this, because obviously some tools are incredibly helpful 50 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 2: for our life. I'm hoping that the squadcast where we're 51 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: recording is not glitchy. But there's no way we'd be 52 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: doing this you in California and me and Philadelphia and like, 53 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: you know, be able to see each other. I mean, 54 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: there's a lot of tools. Sure, digital tools are incredibly amazing. Yeah, 55 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: but is it just the sheer volume of them that's 56 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: that's the problem. Is it the time we're spending on them? 57 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: What is leading to the problem. 58 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a combination of factors that I really outline 59 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 3: in the book, And the myth that I wanted to 60 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: spell right off the top is that that we're just 61 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 3: using tools too much. I don't think that's really the problem. 62 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: We have to use them to get by in today's world, right, 63 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: whether that's at home, whether it's at work, at parenting 64 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: with our families, The key is how do we use 65 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 3: them in ways that don't lead to those feelings of 66 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 3: exhaustion that we just describe. So there are three key 67 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 3: drivers to digital exhaustion. The first is attention. We hear 68 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: a lot today about how we need to focus, we 69 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: need to do deep work. All that's great, I totally agree, 70 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: but I think those conversations miss a slightly different point, 71 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: which is that the way we pay attention exhausts us. 72 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: So for most of us, we're constantly switching across different devices. 73 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 3: We're at home and we're thinking about work. We're doing 74 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: one project, but we're also switching to do things on 75 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: another project simultaneously. And each of those switches and how 76 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: we pay attention and where we pay attention is really exhausting. 77 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: We switch tools roughly twelve hundred times a day. Think 78 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: about that, like, how many of those switches happen, and 79 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: even if you're doing something is seemingly banal, as switching 80 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 3: between let's say Microsoft Teams and Zoom that are both 81 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: video conferencing platforms, think about, Okay, I've got to figure 82 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: out where the record button is or how I get 83 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: my mic on on this new application, and all of 84 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: those micro decisions are just cognitively exhausting. They wear us out. 85 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: So how we focus our attention is one. The second 86 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: is about inference. So we are exposed to so many 87 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: data points all day long, and sometimes those are data 88 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 3: points in a seal spreadsheet. Sometimes they're images that we 89 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 3: see on Instagram or a video on TikTok, and it's 90 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: easy to think that, well, we just are seeing the 91 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 3: total here, we're seeing the world. We're seeing all of 92 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 3: the bits and pieces of information, but we're not. We're 93 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: always making inferences about, well, what do these data actually mean? 94 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 3: Or why did that person post that? Or I wrote 95 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: this thing in this email, what does that person think 96 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: about what I just wrote? And so we're constantly making 97 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 3: all these inferences about data and information sources, and there's 98 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: just great research that shows that when you make those inferences, 99 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 3: we get emotionally exhausted, We get mentally exhausted, and we're 100 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: just doing that constantly. And then the final piece is 101 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 3: just really around emotions. You know, I don't think we 102 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 3: typically think of technology and emotion in the same sentence, 103 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 3: but the way we use our tools and how we 104 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: get involved in you know, sort of the flow of 105 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 3: our work or you know, interactions that we have, maybe 106 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: on text message with our family and friends, they lead 107 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: to a whole range of emotions, some of them really great. 108 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: We're excited, we're you know, we're feeling really happy. Others 109 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: were feeling kind of depressed, or we're having anxiety, or 110 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: maybe we're mad. And emotions are one of the biggest 111 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 3: sources of our exhaustion, whether they're positive or negative. Emotions 112 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 3: wear us out. And everything we do with technology today 113 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: piques our emotions in all kinds of ways. So if 114 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 3: you think about attention, inference, and emotion, those are the 115 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: things that are wearing us out. It's not our tools, 116 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: but it's how our tools create these different orientations to 117 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 3: those three drivers. 118 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: Well, and one of the things you suggest in the 119 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 2: book is doing a bit of an audit on all 120 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: the tools you are touching in the course of the day. 121 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: What we're switching between twelve hundred times. I'm curious what 122 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: are the sort of numbers people are posting when they 123 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: do an audit. What kind of numbers are is that 124 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: list going to be so our readers, our listeners don't 125 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: feel bad. 126 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: When they do this. 127 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've done this with a like probably at 128 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: sixty seventy people at this point, and on average, I 129 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 3: would say people report using between thirty five and forty 130 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: different applications today. That's up from about a decade ago 131 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 3: when I started doing this, and people were reporting somewhere 132 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: between ten and fifteen applications. So that number has just 133 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 3: dramatically increased in a few years. Another interesting fact about 134 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: that difference between then and now is when I used 135 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: to ask people, okay, well, tell me about the digital 136 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 3: tools they're using, they would say, well, I use my laptop, 137 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: and I use my phone, and i use my computer, 138 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 3: so they are all devices. And today almost nobody mentions devices, 139 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: but they say I'm on this app and that app 140 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: and this app across all of these different devices. So 141 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: it's not just that we're switching and paying attention and 142 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: using so many different tools, but we're using them across 143 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: different devices, and so they all have different interfaces and 144 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: different ways of interacting with them. And thirty five to 145 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 3: forty that seems like a lot. But if you just 146 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: start to think about, okay, well, I use Safari on 147 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 3: my phone, and then I go on LinkedIn, and then 148 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: I'm using Microsoft Word, and then I look at Gmail 149 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: and then they all add up real quick, real quick. 150 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: Well, but one of the things you then say with 151 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: that is, I mean, the truth sets us free when 152 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: we know what all these are. One of the upsides 153 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: of doing this is you can see how many are 154 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: just for personal use, which I think gives people more 155 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: of a sense of agency over it. Like I can't 156 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: suddenly decide to stop using Zoom if that's how I 157 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: communicate with my boss and I'm working remotely, right, we 158 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: can't just write that off. But nobody's requiring you to 159 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: be on Instagram, for instance, most of the time. 160 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. So my recommendation when you're doing what 161 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: I call a tool audit is to say, first, just 162 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: list out all of the different technologies that you use, 163 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: and I think you'll be surprised often how many duplicating 164 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: tools we have. You know that maybe you're kind of 165 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: just for fun, you're talking to your family on FaceTime, 166 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: but you're also talking to your family on Zoom, and 167 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 3: you're like, well, those are sort of giving me the 168 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 3: exact same functionality. Maybe I don't need to be using 169 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 3: both of these. So just listing as powerful as you mentioned, 170 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 3: but then dividing between what do we use in our 171 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: personal lives and what do we use at work helps 172 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 3: us to recognize, just as you point out that we 173 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 3: can do a lot in our personal lives to reduce 174 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: the number of tools that we use. Sometimes it's harder 175 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: at work, although lots of great examples of people who 176 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: found that they're using a bunch of different technologies at 177 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: work and nobody really knows why, you know. So I 178 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: talked to one woman who was saying, well, we we 179 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 3: have Dropbox, and we have g Drive, and we have SharePoint, 180 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 3: and we seem to save our files on my team 181 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 3: and all of those and so I went and asked, 182 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: why are we using all three of these? And nobody knew. 183 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: So I just said to the team, the team was 184 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 3: about eight people, what if we just picked Google Drive? 185 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 3: And everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's fine, we'll just move 186 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: everything over to Google Drive. So often we're just stuck 187 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: in this tool creep right where we have more and 188 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: more devices and applications and we don't know why. And 189 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: so it's easier to take care of the ones at home, 190 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: slightly harder in the workplace. But I think both are doable. 191 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely Well, We're going to take a quick ad break 192 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 2: and then we'll be back with more about digital exhaustion. Well, 193 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Paul Leonardi, who's the author 194 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion. We've been talking 195 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: about doing a tool audit of every tool you touch 196 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: on the course of the day and seeing which ones 197 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 2: maybe duplicates, which ones are solely for personal use in 198 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: er within your control, whether you think they add to 199 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: your life or not. But even if we are going 200 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: to use a tool, there are ways within the use 201 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 2: of the tool to sort of tone down its exhaustion 202 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: factor for us. I mean, one of the things you 203 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: mentioned is simply delaying responses and how does that work 204 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: to tone down the exhaustion. 205 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 3: Sure, So this is I think a powerful rule that 206 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: I talk about in the book. It's rule number four, 207 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 3: and it's maybe the most controversial of the rules in 208 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: the book. You know, we're soingrained in quick response times 209 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: in at least the western industrialized world. You know, somebody 210 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: sends us a message, a text, an email, what's that message? 211 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 3: And we feel like, well, we just have to respond 212 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: right away. So there's a very strong cultural pressure towards 213 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 3: that response. What's interesting, though, is there's been a lot 214 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 3: of research about people and response times, and what the 215 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: research shows is, first, people overestimate how urgent they think 216 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 3: someone else's requests are, so we often think that we 217 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 3: have to respond away because this person needs this thing 218 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: right now. And if you go and survey the people 219 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: that sent the request, they often say, well, I didn't 220 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: really need this as quickly as they thought that I did, 221 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: so thinking about this email urgency bias, I think is 222 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: an important thing to remember. Second, the data also show 223 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: that people in train to our response patterns. So if 224 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 3: I'm someone who responds really quickly, then you're going to 225 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 3: respond quickly because I responded quickly, and if I respond 226 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: more slowly, you tend to respond more slowly because I 227 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: responded more slowly. So we get into this choreograph dance 228 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 3: pretty easily with the people that were exchanging messages to 229 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: So if you want to slow down the rate at 230 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: which you have to receive messages and respond to them, 231 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: like just don't send messages quite so quickly, or respond 232 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 3: to people's messages a little more slowly. I'm not suggesting 233 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: that we shirk our responsibility if there's a really important 234 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: and urgent thing, but many of the things that people 235 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 3: ask us aren't super and many of the things people 236 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 3: ask us resolve themselves if we don't respond right away. 237 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: I mean that you can probably think of many times 238 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 3: in your life where someone's asked you for some help 239 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: or asked you for this piece of information and you 240 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: don't respond for whatever reason, and then they email you 241 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 3: back or text you and say, actually, I don't need 242 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: that anymore. I moved on or I figured it out. 243 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: So delaying strategically sometimes can help us to reduce response time. 244 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 3: And the very last thing I'll say about this, because 245 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: I know we should move on, but is that a 246 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 3: lot of research shows that if we send longer messages 247 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: that are more thoughtful, people respond to them less frequently. 248 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 3: And that's important because what it means is that if 249 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: I just take a little more time crafting something that's 250 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: more thorough, then people will store that in their inbox, 251 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 3: they'll reflect on it. It'll help to answer their questions 252 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 3: maybe that they don't have right now, but they'll realize 253 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: that they have in five hours or in a week. 254 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: And that means that they're not constantly sending me these 255 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 3: small follow ups that get me out of the rhythm 256 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: of my work and really tax my attention for having 257 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: to respond when I'm trying to do something else. So 258 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 3: I think delayed response, slowing down a little bit is 259 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: a huge tool that we can have in order to 260 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 3: reduce our exhaustion. 261 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and you say you train people in what 262 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 2: you're like if I know that the emails I get 263 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: from Paul are thoughtful and explain everything, and you know 264 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: I'm not going to have a million follow up questions, 265 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: and I start to, Oh, the emails from Paul are 266 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 2: actually serious, I should. 267 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: Start paying attention to them and reflecting. 268 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: Upon them as they do what I think the things 269 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 2: I found sort of darkly humorous tell you like many 270 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: of us wind up using apps and group texts and 271 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: such in our personal lives, sometimes in the hope of 272 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: saving time, right, like the idea of Okay, I'm gonna 273 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: carpool with three other families to soccer, and because of that, 274 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: I am only going to have to go to soccer 275 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the time because we're all taking 276 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: each other's kids. And yet the mental management of that, 277 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: the mental load that winds up coming out of managing 278 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: the carpool group chat can sometimes be as much as 279 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: the time that you would have spent driving those children 280 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: to soccer. 281 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, darkly humorous is probably a good way to describe it. 282 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 3: You know, this particular chapter in the book that's sort 283 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: of about parenting in the digital age is really poignant 284 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: for me personally because I've got three, well two teenage 285 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 3: daughters and one almost teenage, and I'm just like a 286 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 3: chauffeur service, right, I'm just driving them around constantly, and 287 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: so it was really sort of horrifying but also gratifying 288 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: to talk to so many parents to hear about what 289 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 3: are your struggles and what are the ways that you 290 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: deal with them. And the concept that I would urge 291 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 3: us to think about is what I call shadow hours. 292 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: So we think about a typical task like driving someone 293 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: or carpooling, like how much time does that take? And 294 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 3: the mental calculation that most of us make is, Okay, 295 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 3: well how much time is this going to save me? 296 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 3: But what we don't think of are those shadow hours, 297 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: or the amount of time that happens in coordination to 298 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: make that carpool happen. And it's funny. So just I'm 299 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: just going to pull out my texts here while we're talking, 300 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: because just last night, my wife's friend sent her a 301 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: text and I'm going to see if I can read 302 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: it here, and it says, got eighty three texts today 303 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: about the carpool situation. I'm over it with a big 304 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 3: face with crime. Now, think about that all the time 305 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: that you're trying to spend to coordinate because someone you know, okay, 306 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: well my other kids siys, so I can't do the 307 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: carpool today, or it turns out, you know, this person 308 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: has to go here rather than there. We're spending so 309 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: much time trying to do these coordination activities that really 310 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: take our time, attention, and peque our emotions that in 311 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 3: many cases, if we step back a bit, we might think, 312 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: maybe I just drive the person instead, maybe just drive 313 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: my kid and I don't have to do all this 314 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 3: coordination and spend all these shadow hours. And the other 315 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: thing that I find talking to a lot of parents 316 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 3: is they say, these are really crappy connections with people, 317 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 3: you know, like, I'm not actually building relationships by saying Okay, 318 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: I'll pick up, no you pick up, No, I'll be there, No, 319 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: you be there. What people say that they do that 320 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: really helps is that they'll say, well, rather than let's 321 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: try to coordinate this on text when we both go 322 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: and we're here at this event, let's talk about it. 323 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: And then you actually see somebody, you laugh a little 324 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: bit with them, you joke about the ridiculous situation that 325 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 3: we're in driving our kids to and fro, and you 326 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: feel like you're actually making a connection with someone and 327 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: you're able to resolve a lot of those ambiguities that 328 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: would have taken thirty texts in fifteen seconds worth of talking. 329 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: So I think that the watchword here is think about 330 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: your shadow hours and think about how you can connect 331 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: so much that you actually lose real connection with people. 332 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely, we're going to take one more quick ad break 333 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: and then we will be back with more on digital exhaustion. 334 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: So I am back talking with Paul Leonardi, who's the 335 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: author of the brand new book Digital Exhaustion, Simple Tools 336 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: for Reclaiming Your Life. So, I mean that's not to. 337 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: Say we should never try to carpool or to you know, 338 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 2: outsource anything. I mean I'm reminded of the fact that 339 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 2: like managing in general, like when you manage, when you outsource, 340 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: you're still a resource. 341 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: Problem. 342 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,239 Speaker 2: Is we have to, you know, try to minimize how 343 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: many shadow hours we are devoting to different things, but I'm. 344 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: Curious about your scandle. Here, let's talk about your scandule. 345 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: Okay, do you have any routines, particularly around how you 346 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: deal with digital stuff or inputs that you feel make 347 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 2: you more productive. 348 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. So I've developed a number of different tricks over 349 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: the years, mostly inspired by doing the research for this book. 350 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 3: So one of the biggest ones is about my pattern 351 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 3: of response to incoming queer and that for me often 352 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 3: happens on email, but it also happens on LinkedIn, it 353 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 3: happens on text message, it happens through some group chat 354 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 3: devices that we use in my work and in my consulting. 355 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: And I used to be what I call a very 356 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: hardcore batcher, meaning that I would pick certain times a 357 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: day and I would say, Okay, this is my response period. 358 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 3: I'm going to give you a window right an hour 359 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: in the morning, and I'm going to give an hour 360 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 3: at lunch and an hour in the afternoon, and I'm 361 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 3: going to respond only during those times. In fact, when 362 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 3: I was really at my peak of doing this, I 363 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: think I really did it like once a day, and 364 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: I was really efficient with all the rest of my 365 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 3: work because I wasn't getting interrupted constantly by incoming messages 366 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 3: that took my head out of the space that I 367 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 3: was in and put in somewhere else, and my exhaustion 368 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: felt relatively low. However, what I noticed over time, and 369 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: after interviewing a lot of people who do batching versus 370 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: what I can streaming, which is kind of just taking 371 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 3: things as they come in and then responding to them 372 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 3: right away, is that I was actually letting a lot 373 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: of people down. You know, that I wasn't careful about 374 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: triaging my messages right and triaging the things that I 375 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: needed to accomplish, and so I put everything into the bucket. 376 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 3: I'll respond to this at the end of the day 377 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: when some things actually needed much more quick responses, and 378 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 3: so I was making it difficult for other people to 379 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 3: complete their work or to do the things they needed 380 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: to do. So over time, I've moved toward having a 381 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 3: system where I do dedicate chunks of time morning, right 382 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: before lunch and then about an hour before it in 383 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 3: my day to real in depth responses. But I'm also 384 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: just looking throughout the day to make sure that things 385 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 3: aren't coming in that will require a really quick response 386 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 3: that doesn't take a lot of my headspace so it's 387 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: a combination of figuring out about that batching and streaming 388 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: and what the ideal balance is on those two activities 389 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: for you that I think are really. 390 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: Important well, because it really is a balance, right, I 391 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: mean there are because there are people who are streaming 392 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: all day and I can tell you having studied their schedules, 393 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: they get nothing done. I mean, you know, everyone's excited 394 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 2: that you hear back from John immediately, but if John 395 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: has never gotten around to finishing his part of the 396 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: project of initially, it gets a little tedious set you 397 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: know that he was responsive but not effective. 398 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: So I mean, I guess maybe people just need to. 399 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: Try different things and see, like where you get the 400 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: balance of people being unhappy with you versus where you 401 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: get the balance of being unhappy with yourself because you're 402 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: not getting stuffed. 403 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 1: I guess I don't know. 404 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 3: I would say that most of the inbound things that 405 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 3: we get right this is after talking to twelve thousand 406 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 3: people over the twenty years of studying this. Most of 407 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 3: the inbound things that we get are not urgent, you know, 408 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 3: and most of them require some amount of thought from us, 409 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 3: other than the ones that we quickly delete. Right, So, 410 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 3: like hat your inbox, you can probably quickly delete, but 411 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: things require some focus. So I do think it's worth 412 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: figuring out how do I dedicate times in the day 413 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: where I can really just focus on dealing with these 414 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: issues and not in a time when I'm trying to 415 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 3: write this report or put together this presentation or debrief 416 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: with this client. But we also have to recognize that 417 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: there are going to be the periodic things that come 418 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: in that require quick response, and usually the responses that 419 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: we need are not pulling us mentally out of a 420 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 3: space to get us to be able to respond, and 421 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: so we can deal with those quickly without really breaking 422 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: our concentration. So my recommendation is that you think about, Okay, 423 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: how do I batch most of these things into different 424 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 3: times of the day, but just make sure that I'm 425 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 3: only responding to those things that are really urgent that 426 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 3: I need to as they come in. And finding that 427 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 3: balance for you is going to be slightly different. 428 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: For everybody, absolutely so, Paul, one of the questions I 429 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: always ask everybody on this show is what is something 430 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: you have done recently to take a day from great 431 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: tip to awesome? 432 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 3: That question, and for me, it actually relates to one 433 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 3: of the concepts in the book, which when I talk 434 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 3: about flow, and you're probably familiar with that concept most 435 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 3: of your listeners are. You know, where you're really engrossed 436 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 3: in an activity and you're just there because the more 437 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: you're there, the less you want to be elsewhere. And 438 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: there's all kinds of positive energy that comes from being 439 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 3: in a state of flow in a fun activity and 440 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 3: a work activity doesn't really matter. But one of the 441 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 3: things that I tried to do recently was just to 442 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: really be where I am. And I know that sounds 443 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: kind of funny, but you know the other day, I 444 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 3: was driving my daughter somewhere and I was thinking, so 445 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 3: I started the drive, thinking, oh, like, I have the 446 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 3: driver here right But then when I thought about this 447 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 3: rule number eight in the book, I was thinking, Okay, 448 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: what if I'm just really here right now, drive because 449 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 3: I've made this choice, so I just will be right 450 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 3: in the car with my daughter. And that really changed 451 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: my day dramatically because I really listened to her talk 452 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: about her day and we were driving along and she 453 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: pointed out this beautiful bird that was flying along and 454 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh, that is a really 455 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: beautiful bird. And the drive went by like that, right, 456 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 3: and like three felt like three seconds because I was 457 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: in the drive. I wasn't thinking about what email is 458 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: going to respond to in my head or think about 459 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 3: the numbers I needed to crunch in my Excel spreadsheet later, 460 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: and that took my data great in a way that 461 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: almost nothing else has in a while. 462 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: Would that all our driving children around could be that amazing? 463 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: No kidding. 464 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: There was no traffic and there was the birds were. 465 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: Singing, birds were singing, and the clouds parted. It was amazing. 466 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: It was amazing. My teenager wasn't mad at me. It 467 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: was great. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Paul, What are 468 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: you looking forward to right now? 469 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 3: Let's see. I this sound a little geeky, but I'm 470 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 3: really looking forward to AI. Like there's so much talk 471 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: about it that kind of is exhausting, you know. But 472 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 3: I've been doing work with a lot of different companies 473 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: that are building AI tools and starting to implement them, 474 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 3: and I really am excited about the possibility of how 475 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 3: these different technologies are going to really change the way 476 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: we work and the way that we enjoy our leisure time. 477 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 3: There are certainly some things to be scared about, but 478 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 3: I'm actually quite optimistic that if we make some smart choices, 479 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 3: we're gonna, I think, have a better world. And maybe 480 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 3: that sounds a little pollyannish, but I don't know. I'm 481 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 3: kind of excited about it. 482 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean technology can be great. 483 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: You know, cares are amazing that we get to use them, 484 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 2: even if they are occasionally exhausting. 485 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: So, Paul, where can people find you? 486 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? So you can find me at LinkedIn. That's a 487 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 3: great place to interact. I'm on x p Leonardi one 488 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 3: is to handle there, and then my website, Paul Leonardi 489 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 3: dot com is a great place to get updated on 490 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 3: some latest writings and places like Wall Street Journal, Harvard 491 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: Business Review, and other books I've written. But check out 492 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 3: Digital Exhaustion. 493 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 2: Please please do book well. Paul, thank you so much 494 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 2: for joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If 495 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: you have feedback about this or any other episode, you 496 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: can always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 497 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and 498 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: here's to making the most. 499 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If 500 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach. 501 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: Me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 502 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts 503 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 504 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.