WEBVTT - Reality TV is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:30.156 Bushkin, This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Junior, So well 0:00:30.236 --> 0:00:42.236 you married. That's Nate Olakoya, a contestant of ABC's Bachelorette, 0:00:42.316 --> 0:00:46.516 proposing to Michelle Young on National TV. The Bachelorette spent 0:00:46.556 --> 0:00:49.996 off to ABC's The Bachelor is a competitive reality dating 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:52.756 show where contestants vie for the love of the lead, 0:00:53.196 --> 0:00:56.916 aptly titled The Bachelor or The Bachelorette. With the start 0:00:56.916 --> 0:01:00.356 of twenty twenty two, The Bachelor premiered it's twenty sixth season. 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:03.716 The franchise has been a popular mainstay for ABC, with 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:07.556 average viewership reaching over ten million in some seasons. I 0:01:07.716 --> 0:01:10.956 love both The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. I've watched for 0:01:11.036 --> 0:01:13.596 many seasons and at times I'd love to hate both 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:16.516 shows as well. Recently, I felt like the shows have 0:01:16.596 --> 0:01:18.836 fallen out of step with reality. I mean, you have 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:23.436 almost entirely white player pools. There was a year where 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:26.956 both leads and all of their players were all white. 0:01:27.596 --> 0:01:31.716 Twenty years later, we finally get a black bachelor. We 0:01:31.756 --> 0:01:34.516 still have never seen a black woman when the ring 0:01:34.556 --> 0:01:38.436 which is getting the final rows. There's still so much 0:01:38.476 --> 0:01:41.076 that needs to happen. The past few seasons of the 0:01:41.076 --> 0:01:43.716 show have tried to address its blind spots with regards 0:01:43.756 --> 0:01:47.036 to race. Out of a combined forty four seasons, there 0:01:47.036 --> 0:01:50.276 have been two black Bachelorettes and one black Bachelor so far. 0:01:50.876 --> 0:01:53.796 But beyond the lack of inclusivity, watching the show is 0:01:53.796 --> 0:01:58.876 difficult at times because it's premise feels dishonest. Everything you 0:01:58.916 --> 0:02:02.036 see on that screen is a choice made by producers, 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:05.676 everything from what's actually happening on the screen, especially to 0:02:05.756 --> 0:02:09.756 what they're not showing you. That's Chad Coulchin and Lizzie Peace, 0:02:09.756 --> 0:02:13.516 who you heard earlier, are co hosts of Game of Roses, 0:02:13.796 --> 0:02:17.276 a podcast about the Bachelor and Bachelor Rette franchises. I 0:02:17.356 --> 0:02:19.876 enjoy listening because Chad and Lizzie talk about the show 0:02:19.916 --> 0:02:22.956 in a very different way, not as a reality show 0:02:22.956 --> 0:02:25.716 that chronicles to search for love, as the franchise purports 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:29.396 itself to be, but rather as a game with a prize. 0:02:30.156 --> 0:02:33.196 And we meticulously recorded every play that has ever been 0:02:33.236 --> 0:02:35.556 made by any player in the history of the game, 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:38.796 which gave us an in depth understanding of not only 0:02:38.796 --> 0:02:41.196 the evolution of the game, but all of these different 0:02:41.236 --> 0:02:44.436 statistical categories that allow us to apply metrics to strategy 0:02:44.716 --> 0:02:46.996 for players coming into the game who want to try 0:02:47.036 --> 0:02:49.876 to win the ring, the crown, get Top four, get 0:02:49.876 --> 0:02:53.676 their million Instagram followers, or whatever their goals may be. Today, 0:02:53.876 --> 0:02:56.076 we're talking to Lizzie and Chad not only about the 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:58.716 problems on this one reality show, but about how we 0:02:58.716 --> 0:03:01.796 could take a more honest approach in producing and viewing 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:06.556 reality television. The belief that reality TV is real is 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:18.996 a solvable problem. Pretend that I've never watched this show 0:03:19.036 --> 0:03:21.276 in my life, and just give me the most basic 0:03:21.356 --> 0:03:24.716 description of The Bachelor you can. The Bachelor is a 0:03:25.196 --> 0:03:32.476 ten round game of attrition where around thirty women try 0:03:32.556 --> 0:03:36.036 to compete to date one man. And the way that 0:03:36.116 --> 0:03:38.996 we sort of break down the show on our podcast 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:40.996 as well as the book that we have coming out, 0:03:41.316 --> 0:03:45.876 is treating it like a game, as the end goal 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:48.676 being either to win the ring, to win the crown, 0:03:49.036 --> 0:03:52.836 or around top four placement, because then you are guaranteed 0:03:52.836 --> 0:03:56.596 a spot in Bachelor in Paradise, subsequent appearances on the show, 0:03:56.716 --> 0:04:00.436 and can possibly get a million Instagram followers. It's funny 0:04:00.436 --> 0:04:03.276 because I've known the show is not real, and most 0:04:03.276 --> 0:04:06.036 of my arguments against it have to be with what 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:09.996 they're pressing forth as the ideal body type, the ideal race, 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.636 the ideal way to fall in love, and the ideal 0:04:12.676 --> 0:04:15.716 family standard. Those are the practices that I argue with 0:04:15.756 --> 0:04:18.276 the most. But what I'm hearing from you is that 0:04:18.356 --> 0:04:21.996 it's there's more theater in this show than a regular 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:25.716 watcher would would even realize. Is that absolutely, it's pro 0:04:25.756 --> 0:04:29.556 wrestling at this point, almost the kind of it is real. 0:04:30.356 --> 0:04:33.356 I mean, every once in a while there is a 0:04:33.396 --> 0:04:36.156 relationship that comes out of this show. There is potentially 0:04:36.156 --> 0:04:39.396 even a family that does happen. It is rare, but 0:04:39.436 --> 0:04:42.116 that's also part of the game. It's not real, yeah, 0:04:42.116 --> 0:04:45.996 but the viewing audience, I think largely still believes it is. 0:04:46.676 --> 0:04:48.956 So one segment of your podcast is there's a running 0:04:48.996 --> 0:04:50.716 theme of the number of days and Lizzie, you do 0:04:50.796 --> 0:04:54.436 you cover this portion the number of days without an 0:04:54.476 --> 0:04:58.596 Asian Bachelor? Why is that important to note? Well, it 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:02.676 started out as the Days Without a Black Bachelor, the 0:05:02.756 --> 0:05:06.356 DWAB as we call it, and we were tracking this 0:05:06.836 --> 0:05:10.396 almost since the very beginning of our podcast until the 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:14.036 casting of Matt James, and so the day that his 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:17.916 premier aired, the DWAB finally went to zero, there was 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:21.636 finally zero days without a black Bachelor. For us, especially 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:25.316 having watched you know, the history of the whole series, 0:05:26.116 --> 0:05:29.876 we have basically seen how racist the casting practices are. 0:05:30.476 --> 0:05:34.316 I mean, you have almost entirely white player pools. There 0:05:34.436 --> 0:05:37.996 was a year where both leads and all of their 0:05:38.076 --> 0:05:41.596 players were all white. Years later we finally get a 0:05:41.636 --> 0:05:45.236 black bachelor. We still have never seen a black woman 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:48.396 win the ring, which is getting the final rows. There's 0:05:48.436 --> 0:05:52.196 still so much that needs to happen. And during Matt 0:05:52.276 --> 0:05:55.036 James this season, even though they had the most diverse 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:58.516 player pool of all time, they were getting a proportionately 0:05:58.596 --> 0:06:01.116 lower amount of screen time than the white players during 0:06:01.116 --> 0:06:04.196 that season. Now we have days without an Asian Bachelor 0:06:04.276 --> 0:06:07.596 because there hasn't been an Asian lead, There's been very 0:06:07.676 --> 0:06:10.556 low Asian representation in terms of the players as well. 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:16.036 It's important for us to keep holding them accountable, to 0:06:16.076 --> 0:06:20.476 make sure that you know, it's not a show upholding 0:06:20.476 --> 0:06:23.796 white supremacy essentially. And I think it's important to note 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:26.916 too that it's not just about who's getting cast or 0:06:26.956 --> 0:06:29.716 who the leads are. Those are all subjective choices, obviously, 0:06:30.076 --> 0:06:32.276 but so are the stories being told and who makes 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:35.836 it into the final four. The leads don't actually choose 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.276 who gets the first impression Rose, who gets to go 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:40.676 on the dates, who gets the group date Roses. That's 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:43.236 all done by producers. When we think about things like 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:46.276 the reckonings that kind of begin to happen in society, 0:06:46.556 --> 0:06:49.716 and it seemed like, and especially into different types of industry, 0:06:49.756 --> 0:06:51.796 There's one in the cooking industry, there's one of course 0:06:51.796 --> 0:06:55.116 in Hollywood, and just everywhere. It just seemed like there 0:06:55.116 --> 0:06:58.836 are ripple effects of people waking up to the realities 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:01.156 of racism. So when we talk about race and this 0:07:01.196 --> 0:07:05.076 show specifically, we talk about these being subjective choices. Do 0:07:05.116 --> 0:07:08.756 you think a show like The Bachelor can be reimagined 0:07:08.876 --> 0:07:12.636 to position itself as a reality show that is about 0:07:12.716 --> 0:07:16.436 love in the current era for us, we think that 0:07:16.516 --> 0:07:19.516 they need to embrace social media rather than run away 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:21.356 from it, as they seem to be doing with the 0:07:21.516 --> 0:07:25.556 Bachelor Paradise storyline this year. I think they need to 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:30.636 catch up to where society is. They've been very slow moving. 0:07:31.476 --> 0:07:33.596 You know, they've been making it up in terms of race, 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:38.756 but they've only featured one openly LGBTQ plus player during 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:41.676 a main game season. That was Jamie King on Nick 0:07:41.716 --> 0:07:46.516 Baile's Season twenty one versus. You know, it's like one 0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:51.996 in five young people identify as LGBTQ plus at this point, 0:07:52.036 --> 0:07:54.916 So it's like, if you want to make more money 0:07:54.956 --> 0:07:57.476 and keep going and not be seen as this relic, 0:07:57.636 --> 0:07:59.716 we think that the game has to move forward and 0:07:59.756 --> 0:08:04.316 start representing. You know what love stories in our country 0:08:04.356 --> 0:08:07.596 actually look like. They don't embrace a lot of marginalization, 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:12.756 so they don't necessarily disability size. They'd certainly have a 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:15.476 certain archetype that they got there. Do you think that 0:08:15.516 --> 0:08:18.076 any of those things are things they get addressed if 0:08:18.156 --> 0:08:21.356 it moves from network television to a streaming platform, do 0:08:21.436 --> 0:08:24.516 they have an incentive to even try to address those issues? 0:08:24.636 --> 0:08:26.836 Do you think they even see them as issues? Well, 0:08:27.156 --> 0:08:32.436 they are experimenting right now. They had a bisexual bachelorette 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:37.276 in Bachelor Australia some of the offshoot shows. They are 0:08:37.556 --> 0:08:41.556 trying things out and seeing what the reactions are, and 0:08:41.596 --> 0:08:47.076 I think we'll probably definitely see a bisexual lead at 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:49.396 some point. Do you think you'll ever see a plus 0:08:49.396 --> 0:08:53.556 size lead or plus size contestant. We've had a couple 0:08:53.916 --> 0:08:56.996 plus size contestants and they tried to pitch Bob Guinea, 0:08:57.036 --> 0:08:59.876 the Bachelor of season four, as a kind of non 0:08:59.876 --> 0:09:03.556 traditional looking bachelor. He was like a little bigger than 0:09:03.596 --> 0:09:06.156 as soon as he shows up as the bachelor. He 0:09:06.276 --> 0:09:08.356 was a tall white dude, but like he wasn't you know, 0:09:08.396 --> 0:09:11.476 like a jack bodybuilder type dude. And then as soon 0:09:11.516 --> 0:09:13.916 as he shows up in the first thing they show 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:16.996 is him jogging and like getting in quotes in shape 0:09:17.076 --> 0:09:19.436 to be the Bachelor. So even that was kind of 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:22.476 like overturned. And to answer your question, like do they 0:09:22.516 --> 0:09:25.196 see these as problems? I don't know, whatever kind of 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:28.396 antiquated views they want to promote, whatever kind of psychological 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:31.156 torture they want to impart upon any of these players. 0:09:31.476 --> 0:09:34.436 It's like, well, it's good TV. Well that what does 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:37.956 that mean though we're destroying the fabric of America? Is 0:09:37.996 --> 0:09:40.876 that like for good TV? That's where we're at now? 0:09:41.036 --> 0:09:43.276 So talking more about that, do you think it's actually 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:46.236 destroying the fabric of America? Because I'm I'm prone to hyperbole, 0:09:46.356 --> 0:09:50.636 and I say yes, but talk about how yeah, it 0:09:50.756 --> 0:09:53.796 absolutely is, because there's I mean, we just came out 0:09:53.836 --> 0:09:57.476 of the Trump era and this notion that we can 0:09:57.516 --> 0:09:59.996 just promote open lies through media, and there's going to 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:02.396 be a certain segment of the population who either does 0:10:02.396 --> 0:10:06.196 outright believe it or behaves as though they do. We'll 0:10:06.236 --> 0:10:08.756 get us into situations like we're at now, where nobody 0:10:08.756 --> 0:10:11.716 trusts anything in the news, nobody trusts science, nobody trusts 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:14.796 anything because everybody thinks everything is a lie. I think 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.156 reality TV is I mean, it's not where it started, 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:20.996 but it's like throwing gasoline on the fire. It's always 0:10:21.036 --> 0:10:23.996 about driving people into emotional breakdowns so that we can 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:26.396 watch that as entertainment. And I know that a lot 0:10:26.436 --> 0:10:28.676 of people think Bachelor is just kind of like a frivolous, 0:10:28.676 --> 0:10:31.196 guilty pleasure, but to me, it really is the most 0:10:31.196 --> 0:10:34.516 accurate reflection of our current society, especially one in which 0:10:34.556 --> 0:10:37.036 we just had a reality TV show host as President 0:10:37.036 --> 0:10:39.436 of the United States. I like the ways in which 0:10:39.476 --> 0:10:42.116 that you guys are critical of the show by you know, 0:10:42.196 --> 0:10:44.876 bringing it into reality and talking about the elements of 0:10:44.916 --> 0:10:47.036 it that aren't real. I think that's important, and I 0:10:47.076 --> 0:10:49.876 think you guys definitely have encouraged a different way to 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:52.596 watch The Bachelor, but you guys also have some ideas 0:10:52.716 --> 0:10:55.596 of how the show can be improved or a better 0:10:55.716 --> 0:10:58.356 version of a dating show. Do you guys want to 0:10:58.076 --> 0:11:00.356 talk me through what some of those are. We would 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:06.076 like to see a more inclusive, more honest reality show 0:11:06.116 --> 0:11:10.116 basically that's more clear about what people are going on 0:11:10.196 --> 0:11:14.436 reality dating shows for, and just a more honest approach 0:11:14.476 --> 0:11:17.316 to reality television. I think for the past twenty years 0:11:17.356 --> 0:11:20.756 and all reality TV, there has been this line drawn 0:11:21.196 --> 0:11:24.196 between the producers and the audience, and the producers saying 0:11:24.876 --> 0:11:27.876 they can't see behind the curtain. The thing we're making 0:11:28.116 --> 0:11:30.516 is this lie and they're eating it up, and that's 0:11:30.516 --> 0:11:33.796 how we're making our money. But audiences are like so 0:11:33.916 --> 0:11:36.636 much more savvy now. We all basically are making reality 0:11:36.676 --> 0:11:39.436 TV shows in our instagrams and our TikTok's twenty four 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:42.276 hours a day. We understand how things are produced now. 0:11:42.436 --> 0:11:45.156 I think all reality shows should step out of the 0:11:45.196 --> 0:11:48.596 shadows and be much more transparent about the production elements 0:11:48.636 --> 0:11:50.596 of it, and even maybe have that be a component 0:11:50.636 --> 0:11:52.516 of the show itself. Every once in a while, especially 0:11:52.516 --> 0:11:55.316 in Bachelor, you'll see a producer kind of like sneak 0:11:55.356 --> 0:11:57.556 out of the shadows to have a conversation with somebody 0:11:57.636 --> 0:12:00.196 or whatever. But I think you can have all that stuff, 0:12:00.196 --> 0:12:02.596 Like right up front, what do you think we lose 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:05.356 by mining our own lives for content in this way? 0:12:05.876 --> 0:12:09.996 Mindfulness being in the present moment. I think we have 0:12:10.036 --> 0:12:13.596 different opinions on this. For me, I'm ready for the 0:12:13.676 --> 0:12:15.076 chip in my head. I want to live in the 0:12:15.076 --> 0:12:18.236 metaverse now. I think everything should be content at all times. 0:12:18.276 --> 0:12:21.156 We are moving very quickly towards a society in which 0:12:21.236 --> 0:12:24.596 everything has recorded twenty four hours a day, and the 0:12:24.756 --> 0:12:27.956 job will really be curation. It will be who can 0:12:27.996 --> 0:12:30.876 find the best, most interesting things if you look at like, 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:34.196 do you know Tank Sinatra, that meme artist? Yes, I've 0:12:34.236 --> 0:12:36.796 afforded a lot of Tank Sinatra memes to my friends. 0:12:36.796 --> 0:12:39.396 I follow him on Instagram. He also does Influencers in 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:42.676 the Wild that is literally just videos of people making 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:46.876 content that we watch and laugh at. So now content 0:12:47.196 --> 0:12:50.756 is watching people making content, and eventually it's going to 0:12:50.796 --> 0:12:54.076 be people sleeping, people just like sitting on their couch. 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:57.396 People will start getting famous for those things once we're 0:12:57.436 --> 0:13:00.796 recording everything all the time, and I'm down for it. 0:13:00.836 --> 0:13:03.596 There's a hotel in Japan that you can stay out 0:13:03.636 --> 0:13:05.716 for free, but they just record you the whole time. 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:22.276 Is that good. What can listeners do if they want 0:13:22.316 --> 0:13:25.236 to see the quality of their reality television improved with 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:29.396 shows like The Bachelor or anything else that they love watching. 0:13:29.876 --> 0:13:32.436 Have a higher level of scrutiny for everything you're watching. 0:13:32.836 --> 0:13:36.116 Always be asking yourself when you see anything on any screen, 0:13:36.716 --> 0:13:39.356 why am I seeing this? Who wants me to see this? 0:13:39.716 --> 0:13:41.436 And why do they want me to see it? Like 0:13:41.516 --> 0:13:44.956 they're presenting it. Everything you see on that screen is 0:13:44.956 --> 0:13:48.596 a choice made by producers, everything from what's actually happening 0:13:48.636 --> 0:13:51.596 on the screen, especially to what they're not showing you. 0:13:51.716 --> 0:13:54.796 There's so much media being generated, and now with deep fakes, 0:13:55.196 --> 0:13:59.116 anything you want can be generated. Anyone can say anything. Yeah, 0:13:59.116 --> 0:14:02.236 and especially I would say, no one is as evil 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:06.076 or as good as they probably appear given the edit. 0:14:06.076 --> 0:14:09.436 They need these types of basic archetypes in every season. 0:14:10.156 --> 0:14:14.956 Villains Fools we have We have broken down into twelve 0:14:15.036 --> 0:14:19.196 archetypes in our book. But keep those in mind and 0:14:19.356 --> 0:14:23.116 do not send threats or any hate towards people that 0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:25.156 you don't know all the internet. How do you think 0:14:25.156 --> 0:14:28.556 that results in improving the reality television? Like? What do 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:31.516 you think will come of that? I mean, ideally you 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:37.236 don't see players suffer from mental illness the way that 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:39.156 you were seeing a lot right now. And this has 0:14:39.196 --> 0:14:43.316 been going on since season one. Linnise Adams, the first 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.396 black woman to appear on the show, who actually got 0:14:45.396 --> 0:14:50.276 the first kiss in season one, went through like horrible 0:14:50.396 --> 0:14:54.956 mental illness and started self medicating after she got a 0:14:55.036 --> 0:14:58.436 huge racist backlash against her appearance, like all of these 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:01.996 white supremacists put videos of her on websites and stuff. 0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:08.956 It's hard to prepare for the mental toll that having 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:13.676 yourself scrutinized, seeing yourself edited in all sorts of ways, 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:25.476 saying things that you never said, affects the players. What 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:27.916 do you guys see for the future of Game of Roses? 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:29.236 What do you guys see for the future of The 0:15:29.236 --> 0:15:31.996 Bachelor in five to ten years, you guys still going 0:15:32.036 --> 0:15:33.436 to be doing this? Do you guys think you'll get 0:15:33.436 --> 0:15:35.996 tired of it? What will it look like? And do 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:38.876 you think it will be improved? What do you expect 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:41.036 that it looks like as you guys continue on, We're 0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:44.036 really hoping our book comes out, How to Win the Bachelor, 0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:47.036 and I think it will change the way people watch 0:15:47.076 --> 0:15:51.036 the show. That's one of our goals and it adds 0:15:51.076 --> 0:15:53.756 like a what we think is a fun element to 0:15:53.756 --> 0:15:55.956 treat it as a sport, and we think that more 0:15:55.996 --> 0:15:59.596 and more people will and we'll get you know, we 0:15:59.716 --> 0:16:02.316 did some statistical work on this, but we're hoping, you know, 0:16:02.396 --> 0:16:04.716 others pick up where we left off and do even 0:16:04.756 --> 0:16:09.476 more statistics and make it into, you know, something akin 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:13.556 to the stats that baseball has, for instance, you know, 0:16:13.556 --> 0:16:16.116 where you're tracking everything. I don't know if we'll still 0:16:16.116 --> 0:16:17.876 be doing this in five years. We are trying to 0:16:17.956 --> 0:16:21.116 do our own version of a dating game that is like, 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:24.796 at least in our opinion, a little more progressive, a 0:16:24.836 --> 0:16:27.396 little more inclusive. And so we'll see, you know, hopefully 0:16:27.396 --> 0:16:36.276 we can get that sold and on the air. Appreciate 0:16:36.316 --> 0:16:39.676 you guys both for participating. Thanks for having us. This 0:16:39.756 --> 0:16:42.156 was fun. Yeah, this has been a blast. This was 0:16:42.196 --> 0:16:48.516 so awesome. Lizzie Pacing Chad Coulching are the hosts of 0:16:48.556 --> 0:16:51.236 the podcast Game of Roses. We have linked to their 0:16:51.236 --> 0:16:54.476 new book, How to Win the Bachelor in our show notes. Also, 0:16:54.476 --> 0:16:57.076 if you're watching the twenty twenty two season of The Bachelor, ABC, 0:16:57.316 --> 0:17:00.316 I will say that listening to their podcast makes the 0:17:00.356 --> 0:17:04.436 show just better, So definitely seek that out wherever you listen. 0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:09.436 Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, Research by David Job, 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:13.476 Booking by Lisa Dunn, editing help from Kashall Williams. Our 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:16.996 managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and our Executive producer is 0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:20.596 mil LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening.