1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. 3 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we talked about 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: the President's House site at Independence National Historical Park. Yeah, 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 2: how all the signs were taken down and some of 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: them are up, not all of them, So you were on. 7 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: You were on vacation. 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: Otherwise we would have had like a slightly different episode 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: because of the timing of when things happened, because the 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: whole thing really was completely and totally written. When the 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: order came that the site had to be restored. 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we would have recorded already if that had man. 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that would have been weirder than the 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 2: many progressive rounds edits that I did on the thing 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: before we actually recorded it. The tone of it became 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: slightly different every time because what was being described in 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: terms of the removal of things like it. It was 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: different depending on what was back up. And for a while, 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: news reports from Philadelphia made it sound like everything had 20 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: been put back right, which I was kind I was like, 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 2: that's impressive because I knew having seen what it looked 22 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: like when the panels were taken down that the metal ones. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 2: What was left was like the mounting display with adhesive 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: all over it. Yeah, And I was like, I don't 25 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: know how they're going to put those back up, Like, 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: how is that even going to happen? This looks like 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: something that was supposed to be permanent that was like 28 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: physically torn apart. And I think that is at least 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: part of why they were not put back up. Yeah, 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: I think there are real reasons that you can not 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: have adhesive cure properly in sub freezing conditions, steering a blizzard. 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: I think that's probably reasonable. 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: Well, I also wonder and and you may have heard, 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: but given the manner in which they were taken down, 35 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: were they damaged? 36 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: I think some of them have been damaged in some amount. 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: Is in terms of like they have to be flattened 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: back out, right, they were right, they were pulled off, 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: so they have to be flattened back out. They have 40 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 2: to like the adhesive has to be taken off of 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: the frames that were still hanging on the walls at 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: the site, like that old adhesive has to be removed, 43 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: new adhesive has to be put on there. The panels 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: have to be flattened back out. If they were damaged 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: in any other way, that has to be repaired, and 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: all of that has to be put back up. So 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: I think it is probably really true that that was 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: not something that could physically be done by the deadline 49 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: that was initially set. Also feel like that fact allows 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: the government to keep down the panels that they most 51 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: wanted to take down in the first place, because that 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 2: has like they have the most specific detail about slavery, 53 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: specifically at the President's House and then more generally at 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: the end of the eighteenth century in the newly established 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: United States. I went back through my pictures from when 56 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: I made that trip to be like, do I have 57 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 2: pictures from the President's House. I did not take any 58 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: pictures of the President's House site. I did take a 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: selfie of myself with the Liberty Bill, though, So as 60 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: a trip I took to Philadelphia where I walked all 61 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: all over creation. 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: So Independance National Historical Park was specifically referenced in that 64 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: executive Order as something that needs needing to be addressed, 65 00:03:54,920 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: and one of the things in it says that at 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: Independence National Historical Park, where our nation declared that all 67 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: men are created equal, quote, the prior administration sponsored training 68 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: by an organization that advocates dismantling Western foundations and interrogating 69 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: institutional racism, and pressured National Historical Park rangers that their 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: racial identity should dictate how they convey history to visiting 71 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 2: Americans because America is purportedly racist. I went down a 72 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: big rabbit hole trying to figure out what training that 73 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 2: text is referencing, right, because that sounds to me like 74 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: the most worst faith reading of a routinely normal anti 75 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: racism training. But I did not I was not able 76 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: to find out what specific training had prompted that text 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: to be in the Executive Order. We've gotten a really 78 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: lot a lot of like really great supportive email from 79 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: listeners lately. We've also gotten a couple of people who 80 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: have written to basically say, stop being so political. Yeah, 81 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: so I just want to like spell it out. The 82 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: President of the United States, which is the country that 83 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: we live in and work in and our citizens of, 84 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: has specifically called the kind of history that we talk 85 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: about on the show improper ideology. M Like, there is 86 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: not an apolitical response to that. No, if we vocally 87 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 2: say no, that's political. If we say nothing and adjust 88 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: our content to align with this executive order that is 89 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: also political. That's not something we would do. I'm just 90 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 2: saying that's a political move. Also, if we said nothing 91 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: and didn't really change anything, that too, is political. There 92 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: is no a political response to the President of the 93 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: United States targeting the field that you work in. 94 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: There's just not. 95 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: No, there's really not. And here's my thing. And this 96 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: may be a little heady, and I invoke this all 97 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: the time, Okay, I don't understand the mentality of someone 98 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: who wants to erase all of the uncomfortable and bad 99 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: stuff from our history. 100 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the thing that I always find myself going 101 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: back to is the writing of William Blake, like the 102 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: blaky and ideology that you cannot in fact be truly 103 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: good unless you have been tempted by evil, unless you 104 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: have been you know, someone who has had that moment 105 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: where you have done something that maybe is not truly good. 106 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: And it's recognizing those two things existing and choosing the 107 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: good thing as often as possible that actually makes a 108 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: man or a person or an entity good And to me, 109 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: that makes it so much more valuable. Like, that's why 110 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: we need that's part of why we need to reckon 111 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: with all of the uncomfortable parts of our history. Yeah, 112 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: it has no value to say we have always been 113 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: great and everybody's always been great and we've always done 114 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: things right, because all that tells me is like, great, 115 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: you lived in a vacuum where you never were forced 116 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: to make any choices or do any growth. Yeah, Like, 117 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: I don't, there's no value in that. That's a big 118 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: fat like water of frosting with no cake under it. 119 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't understand it. So as much 120 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: as I love frosting, Listen, I'll eat a can of frosting, 121 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: but what I'm saying is just like, there's it devalues 122 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: the good things we have done to ignore the bad 123 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: things that have happened as well, right, right, And I 124 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: don't know why anybody who would want to do that 125 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: unless they just cannot deal with reality. 126 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well, the draft of the outline from before 127 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: the order came to put the stuff back up talked 128 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: like more about what the content was that had been 129 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: taken down and the fact that having been there, having 130 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: looked at these signs, having read the text on them, 131 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: I found them to be accurate and thought provoking and 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: not something that would cause up person to like need 133 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 2: to rip them down with crowbars, unless maybe their feelings 134 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: were so delicate and unregulated that any mention of slavery 135 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: causes a tantrum about dei or wokeness or political correctness 136 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: or whatever we are calling it nowadays. 137 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: Mandatory therapy, mandatory therapy for all just like that should 138 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: not that should not be that upsetting. Yeah, it should 139 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: be upsetting in the sense that it sucks that humans 140 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: have treated each other badly, but it should not freak 141 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: you out on that level. Yeah. 142 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: So there's a whole book about the President's House site. 143 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: I have not read it, but I wanted to say 144 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 2: that it exists. It's called Upon the Ruins of Slavery, No, sorry, 145 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: Upon the Ruins of Liberty Slavery the President's House at 146 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: Independence National Historical Park and Public Memory. That sounds like 147 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: it would be a very interesting read to me. It 148 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: is just not something that I was able to read 149 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: while working on this. There are also various books about hercules, 150 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: about own a judge, about other people who were enslaved 151 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: at President's House site, lots of other information available. A 152 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: couple other things that kind of jumped out to me 153 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: while I was working on this Like in the context 154 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: that I was working on it, What is a lot 155 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: of the focus of this executive order about removing signage 156 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 2: from the parks and all of that has seemed to 157 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: be focused primarily on things that happened during the Biden administration. 158 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 2: Like the specific order was look at things that happened 159 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: since twenty twenty, so since the last full year of 160 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: the first Trump presidency. Like that's the focus of what. 161 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: We're looking at. 162 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: While this site, the President's House Site, was not dedicated 163 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: until twenty ten, the vast majority of work on it 164 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: was done during the presidency of George W. 165 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: Bush. 166 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: So it's like there's just been this big focus with 167 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: the executive order specifically about Joe Biden, but like also 168 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: an undertone of things that might have been done when 169 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: Democrats were in the White House, right, But like, vast 170 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: majority of the work on the President's Site, the President's 171 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: House site was during the George Bush George W. Bush presidency. Also, 172 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: Judge Cynthia Rufe, a George W. Bush appointee, her incredibly 173 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 2: scathing order to put Everything back begins with a quote 174 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: from George Orwell's nineteen eighty four basically framing all of 175 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 2: this is dystopian government overreach. Also, the kinds of information 176 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: that have been taken down. I had a whole paragraph 177 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: about this, and I felt like this episode was getting 178 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: really long and I wanted to try to rein it 179 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 2: in a little bit. So the information that has been 180 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: taken down at sites like, as examples, information about climate 181 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 2: change and retreating glaciers has been taken down at Glacier 182 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: National Park, where receding glaciers are directly relevant to the park. 183 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 2: Multiple signs have been taken down from Acadia National Park 184 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: in Maine, including ones on climate change and one on 185 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: the site's cultural significance to the Wabanaki people. 186 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: Signs about sea level. 187 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: At Fort Sumter on the coast of South Carolina, also 188 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: directly relevant to Fort Sumter. Sea level rise signs have 189 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: been taken down about that display referencing the Lost Cose 190 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: mythology of the US Civil War, which we've talked about 191 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: on the show before. That was taken down from Manassas 192 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: National Battlefield Park in Virginia. Those so there's just examples 193 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: I learned, like you know, as I was having to 194 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: go through and continually revise this as things were changing 195 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: before it got recorded, Lowell National Historical Park in Massachusetts 196 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: incorporates the boot Cotton Mills Museum. It is a mill 197 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: museum like a factory museum, and the workers there were 198 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: ordered to stop showing a film about what the conditions 199 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: were like at the mills, like the one of the 200 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: points of having a historical park at a mill. If 201 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: not clear whether it's related to this executive order or 202 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: some of the other executive orders of which there are many, 203 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 2: but the words transgender and queer were completely scrubbed from 204 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 2: the stone Wall National Historic Site website. Yeah, and they 205 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: were also forced to take down the rainbow flag, citing 206 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: rules about what kinds of flags can fly at federal properties. 207 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: Didn't they just put it back up? Though? Did I 208 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: see that somebody just went and put went back up. 209 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if they put it back up or 210 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: if neighbors put it up adjacent. 211 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, even as the most bonkers, like there's no way 212 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: to reframe stone Wall, right, that isn't that? Yeah, it's 213 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: so bonkers. Yeah. 214 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, just all all of those things that have 215 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: been taken down, like they all have the same it's like, 216 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: it's not targeting information that's wrong. It's not targeting information 217 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: that is inaccurate. It's all clearly targeting thing that are 218 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 2: considered to be like progressive, left wing ideas, right, rather 219 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: than climate change, which is a scientific reality. 220 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: Anyway. 221 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: Anyway, we talked on the show about when the National 222 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: Park Service had signs put up with a QR code 223 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: that people could submit their commentary. We talked about that 224 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: in an installment of On Earth that's connected to all 225 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: of this. With the executive order, the Sierra Club did 226 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: foyer requests to see what kinds of things people have 227 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: put in in these QR code things. Some of them 228 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: are like legitimate needs that need to be addressed, like 229 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: the bathroom stall door is broken, there's not enough parking, 230 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: like these are things I'm remember I can't get the 231 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: link to open right now while also running the thing 232 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: that is recording in our podcast. 233 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: But like there's there's stuff. 234 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: That people have submitted using these QR codes that are 235 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: like actual legitimate things that something is in disrepair that 236 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: needs to be repaired or something similar. And then there's 237 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: a lot of it, a lot a lot of comments 238 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: where people have taken the opportunity to say this directive 239 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: is a whitewashing of history. And then there is a 240 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: segment of them that are just I would classify as trolling. 241 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 2: So I think if you like google something like Sierra Club, 242 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: Floyer Request National Parks, you can get to these and 243 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 2: read them yourself. 244 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: Nice. I can't. I can't get it to open right now. 245 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: So anyway, there are still a number of ongoing community 246 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: efforts to document signs at the parks, Save our Signs 247 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: Project as one of them. So again, a lot of 248 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: this is an ongoing, ongoing, developing story. 249 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, we also talked about Tayo phil Steinlan and his 250 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: art and politics this week. We did do that. One 251 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: thing we didn't talk about was anarchism, okay, as a 252 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: political concept, Yeah, which I think is important because listen, 253 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: if you're a kid like me who grew up listening 254 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: to the sex pistols, you have a different view of 255 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: anarchy than a lot of other people like we. I think, 256 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: especially in America in the US, we think of anarchy 257 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: as always being very about violence and destruction and like chaos, chaos. 258 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: Thanks John leyden irony there, because that's not what he 259 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: is anymore. But really, when you look at the concepts 260 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: of anarchy historically politically, there certainly were part some parts 261 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: of it that were interested in in violence and overthrowing 262 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: things by using violence, but a lot of it, and 263 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: certainly the part of it that I think tayafiel Steinlan 264 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: was most attracted to was this idea that if you 265 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: got rid of centralized government, and this is a little 266 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: bit sweet and perhaps naive, that people could be taking 267 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: care of each other without needing all of that fuss. Yeah, yeah, 268 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: which is a beautiful way to look at it, and 269 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: it seems very much in line with the way he 270 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: lived his life, yeah, and his pacifism more so than 271 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: that more kind of violent approach to it. But I 272 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: just I wanted to point that out in some context 273 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: as we talked about this this week, because, like I said, 274 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: if you're like me and you grew up in the eighties, 275 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: anarchy was very much pitched as like destroy everything, right, 276 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: just mash all of it. No, No, A lot of 277 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: anarchy is about actually taking care of one another. 278 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and I think a lot of it also 279 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: sort of like acknowledges. 280 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: The harm that governments have done. Right. 281 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: So, even though we have a lot of things that 282 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: I think are good that come from governments, sometimes like 283 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: the harm that is done at the behest of governments 284 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: can get less of a focus. I mean not with 285 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: gigantic things like starting wars, people acknowledge that, but a 286 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that happens day to day on a 287 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: smaller scale that I think anarchy kind of confronts more 288 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: than a lot of people really think about. 289 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. One of the other things I want to 290 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: talk about is actually to me quite funny. It's in 291 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: our show notes, but it's in a write up on 292 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: EPSCO where they talked about all of those like French 293 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: censorship laws that we kind of went through, oh yeah, 294 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: and one of them is this very funny thing that 295 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: is described in that write up where theater censorship laws 296 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: had played out in such a way that shows could 297 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: not include certain portions of a script, but the plays 298 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: that they were producing could still be printed in their 299 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: original state. And what started to happen was that crowds 300 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: would take their printouts and go to the shows and 301 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: they would shout out the original versions and it kind 302 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: of became this anti censorship demonstration. But to me, I'm like, 303 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: this is the first Rocky horror Picture show and it's 304 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: very political, and I love this idea. It was like, 305 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: this is the weird rocky horror. I love it. I 306 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: love it. I love it so much. Just the concept 307 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: of that and how that gets started, and like the 308 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: disorganically developed of people wanting to yell at the stage, 309 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: the parts that the actors were leaving out I envision 310 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I never found a write up on 311 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: specifically any of these instances, but I envision actors taking 312 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: a dramatic pause while we were like your turn, and 313 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: the the audience yells out the part of the play 314 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: that they can't say. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. We 315 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: talked a little bit at the end of the episode 316 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: about chat noirs everywhere. Yeah. When I say everywhere, I 317 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: mean everywhere, Like if you do an Internet surge, you 318 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: will find them in like small towns around the world. Yeah, 319 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: where they're just like a cute cafe that somebody opened 320 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: up and they love, like, you know, this idea of 321 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century Paris bohemian culture, or some of 322 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: them just seem to really love that poster and they 323 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,959 Speaker 1: want to base ahole color scheme around it, and others 324 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: go all out and they try to replicate the time 325 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: and stuff. So I think that I don't know, part 326 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: of me, thinks it would be fun to try to 327 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: just do a tour of them, but that might never fun. 328 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: I think I love it. There is a very funny 329 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: I almost put it in the episode, but I didn't. 330 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: Funny to me Antiques Road Show that features a teofil 331 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: Steinland okay, and it is a lithograph. This woman initially 332 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: thinks it's a painting, but it's a lithograph, and when 333 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: the guy tells her it's a lithograph, she looks disappointed 334 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: at first, and then he was like, no, it's still 335 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: really valuable. But it's one of the original lithographs of 336 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: He did this this dual cat portrait thing that is 337 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: a summer cat and a winter cat, and the summer 338 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: cat is kind of out. He looks like he's sitting 339 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: out on a like the wooden you know, what is 340 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: the word I'm thinking of? You know, I don't know, 341 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: like the thing that goes around your deck railing, Yeah, 342 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: there you go, railing of evaded me. He looks like 343 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: he's sitting on this wooden railing and he looks actually 344 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: kind of grumpy. It's a great piece of work, and 345 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: this woman has brought it to Antique's Road show, and 346 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: the first thing she says is I don't like cats, 347 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: but she had been told it was valuable, so she 348 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: kept it. Yeah, but because she didn't like cats, she 349 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: had kept it outside on her porch for like fifteen years. 350 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: But it obviously was a very well covered porch because 351 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: I haven't degraded much. Although the person that's doing the 352 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: evaluation has says kind of like, hey, you know, unfortunately, 353 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: because this was framed directly against glass in probably varying weather, 354 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: cans that some of the lithographic material has stuck to 355 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: the glass a little bit and kind of but it 356 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: was very funny. I think he evaluates it as being 357 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: like worth ten to twelve thousand dollars and then he's like, 358 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: do you like cats now? And she's like, yeah, I 359 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: think so, and it's just this very funny exchange. But 360 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: like anyway, one of the last thing I really want 361 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: to talk about, okay, is that prison narrative again, because 362 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: there is a lot of interesting writing in it. Some 363 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: of it is very just funny. I mean, I will say, 364 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: when we think of a prison narrative today, we think 365 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 1: of modern prisons, and this definitely seemed to be a 366 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: more relaxed scenario than we would associate with prison today. Right, Like, 367 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: these men were essentially living in a cell together, but 368 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: it was like they had like furniture and tables and chairs, 369 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: and you know, people could come visit them, and people 370 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: that visited them could bring them with food they wanted, 371 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: and so they kind of had like they were isolated 372 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: and they were certainly, you know, not free, but they 373 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: they could have a lot of comforts of home there 374 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: that we might not associate with it. So some of 375 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: it is just like kooky anecdotes about their life in prison. Yeah, 376 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: but there was one passage that I read and I 377 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: haven't found a full English translation of it, so I 378 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: had translated pieces of it with my you know, sometimes 379 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: murky but overall okay French, and then I you know, 380 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: consulted some other friends that translate as well, and there 381 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: was one passage that really really struck me. And it's 382 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: so pertinent to the way we all think about incarceration 383 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: and how important it is to recognize the danger of 384 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: incarceration creating a person that is not really gonna be 385 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: able to participate in recid it viso because they're changed 386 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: so much by the experience. And that passage reads, man 387 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: is an animal who, however unsociable he may seem, can 388 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: only live in society. His confinement within four walls dulls 389 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: his senses, his faculties, his organs. The brain, no longer 390 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: stimulated by a succession of images, becomes numb. If the 391 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: seclusion is prolonged and the prisoner does not find sustenance 392 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: for his activity, there is a danger of intellectual death. 393 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: And I really loved how poignant that was, so I 394 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: just wanted to read it. Yeah, that it will ruin 395 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: the person in ways that people probably were not considering, right, 396 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: and that was sort of part of their whole often 397 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: very funny takedown of the whole justice system. It's like 398 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: nobody's thinking stuff through. Nobody's right. They literally just want 399 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 1: to tick boxes and say they did a thing to 400 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: uphold the law, but they don't. They're not really considering 401 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: the consequences of the way they carry that out, which 402 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: is really interesting. 403 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a super long time, but we did 404 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: an episode on the Attica Prison Uprising yes back some 405 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 2: years ago, and one of the things that we talked 406 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: about was how like the system of prison was basically 407 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: just leaving people worse off than they had been when 408 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 2: they were sentenced to prison and not having a way 409 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 2: to escape that cycle. And it reminds me of that. 410 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, anyway, Tafield Steinland, now we all know who 411 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: he is. He can get proper attribution for his beautiful work. 412 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: Cannot confuse him with to lose the trick. No, I 413 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: understand it there. You know, if you had asked me, 414 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: that's what I would have said. A lot of people would. Yeah, 415 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people would. And especially because they knew 416 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, they knew a lot of the same people. 417 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: They were sometimes portraying similar subjects in their art. It 418 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: makes sense. 419 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, they had some similar subject matter of like their 420 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: commercial arts especially. 421 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,959 Speaker 1: For sure, for sure. But that is Tefield Steinlend. I 422 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: hope that if this is your weekend coming up, you 423 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: have time to look at beautiful art, whatever it is 424 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: that touches your soul the most, or inspires you, whatever 425 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: fits your tastes. If you don't have time off, maybe 426 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: sneak in some art looking online if you get a 427 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: few minutes. It's always good for the soul. More make 428 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: art if that makes you happy. Nothing makes me feel 429 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: more at peace. And when I'm just making something, we 430 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: hope that everybody is being kind to one another these 431 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: very very stressful times we live in. Every human kindness helps, 432 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: in my opinion. We'll be right back here tomorrow with 433 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: a classic episode. Thanks for spending this time with us. 434 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 2: Stuff you missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 435 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 436 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.