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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of the show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, everybody, Welcome to Breaking Points, where it is

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Speaker 2: a very exciting, very special day because we have special

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Speaker 2: celebrity co hosts Dave Smith joining us.

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Speaker 3: Dave, welcome, Good morning, Crystal, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: So you guys, of course know Dave as host, a

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Speaker 2: part of the problem and comedian. He also is going

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Speaker 2: to explain to me why he's being smeared as the

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Speaker 2: woke right and also potentially katarifunded today, so I'm looking

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Speaker 2: forward to this.

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Speaker 4: Wach.

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Speaker 2: He also deserves special gratitude because he is you know,

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Speaker 2: subbing in here for Sager while Sager is on parental leave,

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Speaker 2: and Dave firmly rejects such outrageous coddling of new parents,

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Speaker 2: So we especially appreciate you violating your own principles for this.

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Speaker 3: Well, listen, I am a great admirer of breaking points.

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Speaker 3: It's an honor to be here. I am very opposed

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Speaker 3: to paternity leave.

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Speaker 4: Women deserve all the time off in the word listen,

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Speaker 4: just men.

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Speaker 2: So you're just anti this is part of your war

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Speaker 2: on men, that's what you're telling.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, Crystal, you have kids, I have kids. We

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Speaker 3: both know for certainty that wherever Sager is, he is

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Speaker 3: not helping right now, and he might be trying to,

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Speaker 3: he might want to, but he's not somewhere. I can

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Speaker 3: hear Seger's wife going, all right, I'll do it. Just

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Speaker 3: I got it. It's no problem. You know he should

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Speaker 3: be here, He should he should be working more, if anything.

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Speaker 2: To get him out of her hair. Yes, well, I

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Speaker 2: know he had aspirations of being as helpful as possible.

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Speaker 2: So we'll we'll get an update from him when he

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Speaker 2: gets back. And let me just run through a few

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Speaker 2: the things that we're going to go through today. There

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Speaker 2: are a bunch of topics that I'm really interested to

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Speaker 2: hear your thoughts on, Dave. We've got updates on Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Trump talked to Botsolenski and Putin yesterday. You're going to

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Speaker 2: explain to me this woke right situation, which was very

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Speaker 2: confusing to me, is still very confusing to me. Tim

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Speaker 2: Dillon gave an interesting interview to CNN about whether he's

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Speaker 2: part of a new establishment and his interview with Jadie Vance.

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Speaker 2: Definitely want to get your thoughts on that. Cash Batalon

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Speaker 2: Dan Mongino say actually nothing to see there in terms

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Speaker 2: of Trump's assassination attempt, and also Epstein definitely did kill himself,

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Speaker 2: so everyone can just move on. And then I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure how long Dave will be able to stay for,

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Speaker 2: as I want to respect his time. But we've also

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Speaker 2: got a lot of updates Israel going full mask off

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Speaker 2: on their completely genocidal plans, updates with regard to deportations,

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Speaker 2: a member of Commerce is actually being charged by the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration for alleged assault of an ICE agent. And

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Speaker 2: I'm going to interview and author with a new book

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Speaker 2: out on mk Ultra, which should be really interesting. So

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Speaker 2: lots of good stuff to get to before we jump in.

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Speaker 2: If you can support us breakingpoints dot com. Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much to everybody who's become a premium subscriber that

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Speaker 2: has enabled us to expand to five days a week.

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Speaker 2: With that, let's go ahead and jump in. So, as

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Speaker 2: I just mentioned, President Trump spoke yesterday both to Zelenski

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Speaker 2: and to Putin separately, in hopes of, you know, coming

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Speaker 2: to some sort of a resolution to this horrific war.

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Speaker 2: He was asked some questions about it by the press

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Speaker 2: corps after the fact. Let's go ahead and take a

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Speaker 2: listen to a little bit of that. Did you ask

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Speaker 2: President Putin to meet with you about what about Ukraine?

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Speaker 5: Of course I did. I talked to him about it.

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Speaker 5: I said, what are we going to end this? Flatter me?

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Speaker 5: I've known him for a long time now, I said,

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Speaker 5: when are we going to add this bloodshed?

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Speaker 4: This blood bath?

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Speaker 5: It's a blood bath, and uh, I do believe he

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Speaker 5: wants to end it. You know, when I made the call,

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Speaker 5: I told the people last night, I spoke to the

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Speaker 5: heads of the different countries Germany and Finland. We had

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Speaker 5: Italy as you know, and uk the line today and

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Speaker 5: a couple of others, and then they were in turn

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Speaker 5: calling the everyone. Ursula was there from the European Unions.

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Speaker 5: She was terrific and we you know, we spoke for

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Speaker 5: a long time about it, and uh, they got a problem.

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Speaker 5: It's a big, big problem. But I said to him,

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Speaker 5: we got to get going. And I did say also,

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Speaker 5: if I thought that you couldn't do it, I'd step away,

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Speaker 5: because what are you going to do. We don't have

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Speaker 5: boots on the ground. We wouldn't have boots on the ground,

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Speaker 5: but we do have a big stake. And the financial

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Speaker 5: amount that was put up is just crazy.

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Speaker 2: And let's just go ahead and put up a six

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Speaker 2: which is the Financial Times right up of what transpired yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Their headline is Trump says Russia and Ukraine to immediately

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Speaker 2: begin talks on ending the war. Donald Trump has claim

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Speaker 2: Russian and Ukraine will immediately begin those negotiations, but signaled

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Speaker 2: he was leaving Moscow and Kiev to find a deal

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Speaker 2: without the US as a broker. After phone calls with

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Speaker 2: Putin and Zelensky, Trump posted that quote, Russia and Ukraine

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Speaker 2: will immediately start negotiations toward a ceasefire and more importantly,

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Speaker 2: an end to the war. Putin's readout of the call

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Speaker 2: was more tentative. He offered no substantive change in the

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Speaker 2: Kremlin stance. Well Zelenski implored the US leader to not

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Speaker 2: distance himself from efforts to secure piece. The only one

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Speaker 2: who benefits from that is Putin, Zelenski said in a statement.

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Speaker 2: In remarks that indicated Washington maybe stepping back from a

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Speaker 2: role as a mediator, Trump said the conditions for a

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Speaker 2: deal could only be agreed by the warring parties because

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Speaker 2: they know details of a negotiation that nobody else would

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Speaker 2: be aware of. And Dave, to be honest with you,

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Speaker 2: I am having trouble following the pieces of where we

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Speaker 2: are with this at this point, because you know, we

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Speaker 2: had the big Oval Office blow up with Zelenski, then

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Speaker 2: the minerals deal was off. Then the minerals deal is

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Speaker 2: back on. Then there were going to be negotiations in Istanbul.

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Speaker 2: Then Putin doesn't go, Trump doesn't go. Then we have

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Speaker 2: these phone calls. The Europeans are pushing for sanctions on Russia.

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Speaker 2: Lots of Republicans also pushing in that direction of leving

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Speaker 2: additional sanction. I mean it's already extraordinarily sanctioned on Russia

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Speaker 2: to put pressure on them. Now you've got these phone calls.

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Speaker 2: So are you making sense of where we are with

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Speaker 2: regard to this war?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, just like you said, that's all it. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: what doesn't make sense about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's particularly right, and it's very hard to

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Speaker 3: get a real gauge of it, of course, because number one,

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is, as we all know, he's such a showman,

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Speaker 3: and he's always kind of saying what's politically expedient for

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Speaker 3: him to say. So of course he's saying, we're close

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Speaker 3: to ending this. Everybody's talking, we have to end this thing. Look, obviously,

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Speaker 3: he ran on ending the war on his first day,

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Speaker 3: and it has proved to be more difficult than he

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Speaker 3: made it sound on the campaign trail. I do think

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Speaker 3: that at least, you know, there's a lot of things

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Speaker 3: that Donald Trump is getting wrong as president, but at

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Speaker 3: least he does seem to want the end goal to

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Speaker 3: be an end to this war. And I will say

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Speaker 3: I just find Zelenski's comments appalling that the only one

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Speaker 3: who would benefit from a peace deal would be Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 3: I mean, how about the young men that you're conscripting,

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Speaker 3: or maybe not such young men that you're conscripting, who

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Speaker 3: are dying by the hundreds of thousands. I mean, how

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Speaker 3: about the American taxpayer, how about the European taxpayer, how

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Speaker 3: about the you know, even as even though it's unfashionable

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Speaker 3: to say, how about Vladimir Putin's conscripted army. You know,

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Speaker 3: so often in these wars we just end up thinking,

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Speaker 3: you know, in these collectivist mindsets. But like the young

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Speaker 3: Russian boys are also being forced into this conflict.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I just I find it wild.

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Speaker 3: Particularly, you know, this is one of the things that

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Speaker 3: infuriates me about Israel too. It's like these countries that

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Speaker 3: are completely dependent on America, and yet they talk this

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Speaker 3: big game as if you know, Netanyahu gives these speeches

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Speaker 3: we can touch anywhere in the Middle East. Well, no,

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Speaker 3: you can't, we can, and you just take it for

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Speaker 3: granted that will do whatever you want. And so I

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Speaker 3: do think, you know, Zelinski has done himself no favors.

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Speaker 3: I'm you know with you. I thought after the Oval

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Speaker 3: Office blow up that that would be the end of

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Speaker 3: the mineral deal. Unfortunately, it looks like I was wrong

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Speaker 3: about that, and I think that's a disaster for America

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Speaker 3: to get drawn in more. But from what I've heard

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Speaker 3: from people kind of on the inside, and this does

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Speaker 3: match a lot of the reporting. The real obstacle here

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Speaker 3: is not even that Putin doesn't want to make a

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Speaker 3: deal with Donald Trump. I think he would be happy

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Speaker 3: to is that Putin doesn't trust that the permanent government

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Speaker 3: is going to keep to its word. And while he

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Speaker 3: is the bad guy in this war, and he launched

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Speaker 3: an aggressive war that's killed hundreds of thousands of people,

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Speaker 3: he does have a point there that you know, as

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Speaker 3: we've seen over the last many years. I know Bernie

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Speaker 3: Sanders thinks we just became an oligarchy yesterday, but actually

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Speaker 3: we've been one for quite a while.

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Speaker 2: Arnie's been talking about it for a long time.

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Speaker 3: Dave in fairness, well, yes that is true, but he

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Speaker 3: does still speak about it as if this is something

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Speaker 3: new with Donald Trump, which is like he's not necessarily

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Speaker 3: even wrong about what he's saying with Trump, but it's like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I think when City Group is picking

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Speaker 3: Obama's cabinet, you could probably describe that as an oligarchy.

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Speaker 3: But regardless, the point is that there's going to be

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Speaker 3: a new president in a few years, and there are already,

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Speaker 3: you know, the forces that really control the government, who

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Speaker 3: are very at odds with Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 4: I think he knows that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the minerals deal is a real It

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Speaker 2: really does confuse the situation because both a Trump administration

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Speaker 2: and Zelenski portray this as a sort of a security guarantee.

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Speaker 2: And I mean in the sense it is because the

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Speaker 2: bet is Okay, if you have a bunch of capitalists

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Speaker 2: who are very invested in the minds and the rare

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Speaker 2: earths in Ukraine and whatever else they're getting a piece

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Speaker 2: of here, then we're only going to allow so much

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Speaker 2: Russian threat to those capitalists interests. I don't think that

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Speaker 2: they're wrong about that. And so let me actually play

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Speaker 2: for you. Jd Vance made some interesting comments yesterday as

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Speaker 2: well with regard to this, and see what you think

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Speaker 2: about this piece. Guys, this is a five. Let's go

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Speaker 2: ahead and play that.

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Speaker 6: I'm not sure that Vladimir Putin has a strategy himself

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Speaker 6: for how to unwind the war, of course, that's been

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Speaker 6: going on for a few years now. And I think

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Speaker 6: there's also just a little bit of Look, there's fundamental

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Speaker 6: mistrust between Russia and the West. It's one of the

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Speaker 6: things the President thinks is frankly stupid, that we should

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Speaker 6: be able to move beyond the mistakes that have been

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Speaker 6: made in the past. But that takes two to tango.

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Speaker 6: I know the President's willing to do that, but if

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Speaker 6: Russia is not willing to do that, then we're eventually

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Speaker 6: just gonna have to say, this is not our war.

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Speaker 6: It's Joe Biden's war, it's Vladimir Putin's war, it's not

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Speaker 6: our war. We're going to try to end it, but

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Speaker 6: if we can't end it, we're eventually going to say,

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Speaker 6: you know what, that was worth the tribe, but we're

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Speaker 6: not doing anymore.

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Speaker 2: So that's the position that like you know, a lot

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Speaker 2: of America firsters, Steve Bannon in particular, would want this

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Speaker 2: administration to take basically like, look, we tried, we're backing away.

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Speaker 2: You guys figure it out eure of good luck. But

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Speaker 2: like I said, the minerals dealer really kind of complicates

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Speaker 2: that because we have our hands in the country no

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Speaker 2: matter what at this point. So what would that look

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Speaker 2: like if this administration did just sort of withdraw from negotiations.

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Speaker 2: Obviously Russia has you know, significant advantage in terms of

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Speaker 2: the longer that this war goes. There's signs that the

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Speaker 2: Ukrainian frontline is kind of collapsing right now, you know,

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Speaker 2: I do I think Zelensky's demands for what he would

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Speaker 2: want to see in terms of an end to the war,

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Speaker 2: which is a total Russian withdrawal from all areas, are

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Speaker 2: just completely unreasonable unlikely. So where does that leave us all?

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Speaker 2: Do you think?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's uh, you know, you're you're absolutely right. And

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Speaker 3: of course Trump himself speaks out of both sides of

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Speaker 3: his mouth when it comes to the mineral deal, so he'll,

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Speaker 3: you know, he'll say, no, we're not giving you a

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Speaker 3: security guarantee. This is what Zelensky's big sticking point has been,

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Speaker 3: although weirdly, he's in no position to demand anything, and

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Speaker 3: yet he demands a security guarantee. But then Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: will kind of sell this mineral deal as if that's

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Speaker 3: what it is, and of course the major problem with

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Speaker 3: that is, well, it's kind of twofold.

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Speaker 4: Number one. This is the cause of the whole conflict

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Speaker 4: to begin.

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Speaker 3: With, was the US involvement and the threat of the

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Speaker 3: US giving Ukraine a security guarantee essentially and moving NATO

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Speaker 3: hardware into Ukraine, which has always been Vladimir Putin's concern,

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Speaker 3: but just for for us as Americans. Just think about that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what do you mean by a security guarantee?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 3: What are we going to get? Listen, We've already I

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Speaker 3: think I'm right about this. We've already met the threshold

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Speaker 3: of what Article five would require us to do if

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Speaker 3: Ukraine was a NATO country.

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Speaker 4: It's not.

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Speaker 3: Article five doesn't explicitly say that you have to go

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Speaker 3: to war. Also, it says kind of like that you

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Speaker 3: have to aid in the defensive effort. What more are

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Speaker 3: Americans prepared to do that we've I mean, what are

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Speaker 3: we talking about? Are we going to send in the

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Speaker 3: eighty second airborne to go fight the country with the

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Speaker 3: biggest stockpile of nuclear weapons on their border to make

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Speaker 3: sure that lu Hansk is ruled by Kiev and not Moscow? Like?

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Speaker 3: Come on, so, like, what could we even possibly be

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Speaker 3: promising here? And look, I'll take I'm much more non

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Speaker 3: interventionist than even Steve Bannon is, and I I would

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Speaker 3: say that, Look, I know, people, I did a debate.

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Speaker 4: On this on Counterpoints about six months ago or so.

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Speaker 3: And look, there is this golden piece of leverage that

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Speaker 3: the US has that nobody in Washington, including Trump, is

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Speaker 3: even willing to consider. But US withdrawal from NATO, we

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Speaker 3: could probably get whatever we wanted. We could probably this

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Speaker 3: would be the one thing that we could probably get

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Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin to stop the war. Today, we could probably

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Speaker 3: even get him to give back much of the territory,

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Speaker 3: not Crimea, but probably get a lot of the territory

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Speaker 3: in the Donbass region back on Ukrainian hands. Because this

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Speaker 3: would be the ultimate victory for Russia, but it would

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Speaker 3: also be a victory for the United States of America.

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Speaker 3: There is absolutely no need for US to be you know,

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Speaker 3: you could argue that it made sense after World War Two,

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Speaker 3: with Western Europe destroyed in the Soviet Union in the East,

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Speaker 3: that America had to guarantee put Europe under its nuclear

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Speaker 3: umbrella and subsidize its defense and guarantee its protection. But

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Speaker 3: we'th thirty six trillion dollars in debt and you're up

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Speaker 3: is rich. It makes absolutely no sense of Russia's GDP,

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Speaker 3: I think is what a third of what our government

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Speaker 3: spends every year. There are no threat to take over

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Speaker 3: all of Europe, and so there's no reason why Europe

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Speaker 3: can't go at this alone. And I think if we

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Speaker 3: did that, we'd be in a much better situation.

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Speaker 4: But there's simply no political will to do it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's very interesting. I mean, and also

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Speaker 2: just the whole justification for you know, like the Cold

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Speaker 2: Wars theoretically over, you know, so there was never any

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Speaker 2: reckoning with that, and you know, any interest in reorganizing

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Speaker 2: NATO to deal with a new reality. So I think

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Speaker 2: all of that is really fair. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: if we truly did sort of withdraw from the talks, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you guys, leave it up to yourselves. Zelenski has dug in,

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Speaker 2: I think for his own, you know, political reasons. He's

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Speaker 2: promised we're not going to give up any territory, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think he's gonna move off of that. I

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Speaker 2: think it would take a lot for him to move

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Speaker 2: off of that, even though you know, it's devastating to

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Speaker 2: his own to his own people, to his own country,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean, probably what you would end up

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Speaker 2: with is Russia continuing to you know, to march to

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Speaker 2: take additional territory, and ultimately something approaching a kind of divided,

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Speaker 2: failed state is what you would likely be looking at

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Speaker 2: at the at the end of this. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it's would a, coulda, should have. But obviously the you know,

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Speaker 2: the original sin was when there were peace talks with

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Speaker 2: the chance of success in the very beginning, when the

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Speaker 2: Ukrainians had a stronger hand and there was you know,

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Speaker 2: more leverage that could have been applied to Russia. And

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Speaker 2: you know the fact that the US and you know,

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Speaker 2: with Boris Johnson, that they really scuttled you know, I

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Speaker 2: mean this is just absolutely confirmed at this point that

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Speaker 2: they scuttled those potential talks. Note not that there's ever

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Speaker 2: any guarantees. You know, that's the really what puts us

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Speaker 2: in this horrific situation where at this point I don't

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Speaker 2: think there is a great and a great solution that

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Speaker 2: can that can really be achieved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I agree with you, and I think

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Speaker 3: your right to highlight that as one of the you know,

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Speaker 3: just key blunders. But you know, I highly recommend for

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Speaker 3: anybody who has not read Scott Horton's phenomenal book Provoked,

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Speaker 3: which really details the history all the way from the

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Speaker 3: collapse of the Soviet Union to through this war, and

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Speaker 3: I mean, the thing is just you know, Scott Horton,

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Speaker 3: I mean, the guy is just like a machine. There's

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Speaker 3: like thousands of footnotes in this book. It's all right

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Speaker 3: there for you. And look, I mean it's Look, that

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Speaker 3: is a great like point that you made of Boris

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Speaker 3: Johnson going over and killing the peace talks. But the

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Speaker 3: whole thing from from NATO expansion to color coded revolutions

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Speaker 3: that the CIA and the NED and the USAID were

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Speaker 3: backing all through Eastern Europe to even just if you

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Speaker 3: just think, you know, in the last eight years, we

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Speaker 3: framed him like we always think about how Trump was

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Speaker 3: framed for being a Russian spy, but that was also

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Speaker 3: framing Vladimir Putin. You had every leader of the CIA

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Speaker 3: and the military. You know, I'm not just talking about

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Speaker 3: like Rachel Maddow saying it. Think about this from the

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Speaker 3: Russian perspective. When you've got John Brennan on television every

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Speaker 3: day saying, this guy just launched an attack worse than

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Speaker 3: Pearl Harbor against US, Well, how.

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Speaker 4: Are you gonna view that from?

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Speaker 3: You know, if you're outside of the American Empire and

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Speaker 3: you see the United States of America, the most war

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Speaker 3: hungry country in the world, who's destroyed seven nations in

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Speaker 3: the last twenty five years, is now saying the aim

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Speaker 3: is on you making up these ridiculous lies that they

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Speaker 3: knew were lives. You know, he put bounties on our

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Speaker 3: soldier's head in Afghanistan, these things that like the entire

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Speaker 3: corporate media just walks away from now because they don't

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Speaker 3: have a leg.

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Speaker 2: To stand on. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Right, But so when JD.

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Speaker 3: Vans is sitting there saying, you know, there is this

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Speaker 3: mistrust for yeah, no kidding, I mean, how would how

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Speaker 3: would there not be? All you have to do is

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Speaker 3: try to put the shoe on the other foot for

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Speaker 3: a second and go imagine the Soviet Union still existed

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Speaker 3: and they were toppling the government in Canada and Mexico

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Speaker 3: and Al Salvador and propping up their own, you know,

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Speaker 3: side puppets there.

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Speaker 4: How would we feel about that? And so it's very

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Speaker 4: tough to unwind.

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Speaker 2: It's a good point, you know, to be honest with you.

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Speaker 2: I always assumed he just sort of enjoyed the illusion

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Speaker 2: that he was this like grand puppet master who had

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Speaker 2: such power and control over you know, all these governments

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Speaker 2: around the world. But your perspective makes a lot of

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Speaker 2: sense to let's go ahead and get to this this

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Speaker 2: woke right situation. I want to set this up with

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Speaker 2: some news with regard to Project esther It's called which

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Speaker 2: is this plan that was hatched by the Heritage Foundation,

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Speaker 2: which has really been implemented almost completely by the Trump

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Speaker 2: administration to silence any sort of dissent from the Israel consensus.

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Speaker 2: And we can put this article up from the New

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Speaker 2: York Times. I mean, this is again, you know, the

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Speaker 2: mainstream press reporting on something that both drop site News

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Speaker 2: and Zeteo reported on. I think I don't know quite

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Speaker 2: a while ago, maybe a year ago, but they have

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Speaker 2: some interesting details here. The headline is the group behind

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Speaker 2: Project twenty twenty five has a plan to crush the

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Speaker 2: pro Palestinian movement. Project Ester outlined and ambition w plan

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Speaker 2: to fight anti Semitism by branding a broad range of

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Speaker 2: critics of Israel like you and me, Dave as effectively

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Speaker 2: a terrorist support network, so that they could be deported, defunded, sued, fired, expelled, ostracized,

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Speaker 2: and otherwise excluded from what it considered open society. Project

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Speaker 2: Ester's architects envisioned outcomes that at the time might have

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Speaker 2: seen far fetched. Curriculum believed to be sympathetic to a

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Speaker 2: Hamas support narrative would be taken out of schools and universities.

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Speaker 2: Supporting faculty would be removed. Social media would be purged

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Speaker 2: of content deemed to be anti Semitic. Institutions would lose

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Speaker 2: public funding. Foreign students who pushed for Palestinian rights would

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Speaker 2: have their visas revoked or deported. And they said, once

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Speaker 2: a sympathetic presdential administration was in place, according to the plan,

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Speaker 2: we will organize rapidly, take immediate action to stop the

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Speaker 2: bleeding and achieve all objectives within two years. Now, four

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Speaker 2: months after mister Trump took office, Heritage Foundation leaders are

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Speaker 2: taking an early victory lap. So when I look at

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Speaker 2: these extraordinary efforts which have a you know, clear identitarian

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Speaker 2: lens and are using authoritarian tactics to enforce that identitarian worldview,

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Speaker 2: to me, that is the complete definition of woke. Now

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Speaker 2: woke at this point maybe one of these terms that

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Speaker 2: just needs to be retired because it's just sort of

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Speaker 2: an all encompassing smear and people mean different things with it,

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Speaker 2: and it's become sort of like content free. But to me,

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Speaker 2: using authoritarian tactics to enforce an identitarian worldview is the

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Speaker 2: definition of woke. And so to me, when I look

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Speaker 2: at this, this is the woke right, and not that

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Speaker 2: it's all the right, but this is a Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: Many right wingers are on board with this, and so

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Speaker 2: when I started seeing this term woke right thrown around,

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Speaker 2: I just assumed that was what people meant, because that's

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Speaker 2: really logical to me. You know, even some of the

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Speaker 2: same language about like safe spaces and you know, we

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Speaker 2: have a clip we could play, but I will just

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Speaker 2: reference it of a rabbi and a hearing who was like,

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Speaker 2: it's not enough to be ti Semitic, you have to

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Speaker 2: be anti anti Semitic. And I'm like, oh my god,

434
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 2: it is you know, the very same thing that we

435
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 2: saw on the left previously. So when I was informed

436
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 2: that no, this term woke right is being used somehow

437
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 2: against people like you who are dissenters from the Israel consensus,

438
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 2: I just I've had a very hard time wrap in

439
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 2: my head around it. So I wanted you to help

440
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 2: me understand the contours of this fight that is going

441
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 2: on here on the right.

442
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, So I I initially started using the term

443
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 3: in exactly the same way that you mean it. And

444
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: one of the things that's amazing, and it really is

445
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 3: just the hypocrisy is all over the place. And so

446
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 3: I mean, here you have the Heritage Foundation demonizing the

447
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 3: people like me who might go, hey, you know, we

448
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 3: spent eight trillion.

449
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 4: Dollars on the war on terrorism.

450
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: Hey, Heritage Foundation, do you see an issue with that

451
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 3: when we're thirty six trillion dollars in debt? Okay, Well,

452
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 3: here's the biggest part of it, you know. I mean,

453
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 3: like you could allay that entitlements drive it the most.

454
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 3: But however you feel about entitlement programs, they are something

455
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 3: that people have paid into and are now receiving. Starting

456
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 3: catastrophic wars that you don't need to fight at all

457
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 3: is just a pure waste of money. And it does

458
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 3: come with this other little nasty side effect of murdering children,

459
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: which you know we should probably not do.

460
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: It's controversial to say, apparently, but you know I am

461
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 2: opposed to that personally.

462
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 3: Well, isn't there something to this, crystal, Because I always thought,

463
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 3: you know, for many years, the left leaning people would

464
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 3: as a retort to like the pro life position, they

465
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 3: would say, well, don't you oppose the death penalty? And

466
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 3: I always thought that was not a good argument, and

467
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 3: conservatives would rightly come back and say, yeah, but that

468
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 3: person's like been convicted of a crime, Like we all

469
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 3: accept that you lose some rights when you've committed a

470
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 3: heinous violent crime. But by the way, I oppose the

471
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 3: death penalty for other reasons. But you know, like, but

472
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 3: this is such a good response, like how do you

473
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: claim to be the pro life party and you you

474
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 3: are unaffected by the fact that there are children dying, Like,

475
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. And then the same people who are pro

476
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: life advocates will say, well, what's your plan for eliminating hamas?

477
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 3: And it's like, wait, so now I have to have

478
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 3: a plan. I can't just be opposed to the intentional

479
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 3: killing of babies anyway. But look, I mean, as I

480
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 3: was saying the other day with Tucker, you have Ben Shapiro,

481
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 3: who made his career opposing identity politics as a proud Zionist.

482
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: You have people like Ron DeSantis who made his name

483
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 3: as being the anti woke guy. But then as soon

484
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: as the question of Israel comes up, it's like, oh

485
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: my god, these college kids and they're hurt feelings, and

486
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 3: so all of it is just. And look, the most

487
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 3: the most basic one to me is the shutting down

488
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 3: of legitimate criticism with accusations of bigotry, which really was

489
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 3: the calling card of the woke. That's what most people

490
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 3: mean when they say the word. And what you have

491
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: examples like Thomas Massey made the argument, Now, feel however

492
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 3: you feel about this, I agree with it, but it

493
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 3: is certainly a legitimate argument. When he voted no for

494
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: the Israel funding, he was like, look, we're thirty six

495
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 3: trillion dollars in debt and we can't afford to fund

496
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 3: other countries' wars. That that's it. And he's consistent on this.

497
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: He votes against all these spending bills. And and then

498
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 3: John pod Horritz from a commentary magazine, in response to this,

499
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: called him anti Semitic filth.

500
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: He said something similar about me, by the way, But yeah,

501
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: well I'm.

502
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, and he's said some things about me as well.

503
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 3: I mean, the guy is just, you know, by the way,

504
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 3: his father at least wrote some interesting books. He's just

505
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 3: totally unimpressive. But anyway, but so, yes, so you have

506
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 3: in this moment when the supporters of Israel's destruction of

507
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: Gaza are.

508
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: Look, they are.

509
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 3: Supporting the war on identitarian grounds, claim eternal victim status

510
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: for one identitarian group. They are shutting down dissent with

511
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: accusations of bigotry and supporting speech laws as you know,

512
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 3: ranging from as the stuff that you guys have covered

513
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 3: on the show so much. And then they're also calling

514
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: the other side woke for you know, opposing these wars,

515
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: and they, you know, the ones who have come up

516
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: with it, come up with the flimsiest of justifications.

517
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 4: You know.

518
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: Essentially they are forced to just view our arguments through

519
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 3: like a critical theory lens and say, oh, well, you know,

520
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 3: you're saying that you woke up to the reality that

521
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: Israel has too much influence on our government, as if

522
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: now waking up to anything makes you woke. Like it's

523
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: just the most ridiculous, you know, like like the it's

524
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: such a loose definition that it could be applied to anyone. Yeah,

525
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: so it's just kind of meaningless. But I do think

526
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 3: that really and and you know, I'm curious to get

527
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: your thoughts on this, but I've I've been saying this

528
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: for years that I think many of the popular, the

529
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: most popular kind of anti woke, anti social justice warrior thinkers.

530
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 3: They all kind of got wokeism wrong, yes, all along,

531
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: and this includes Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, all all of

532
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 3: the guys who kind of were famous for battling it

533
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: out with these college students. They and this also includes

534
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: people like James Lindsay and Brett Weinstein, I think, even

535
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: who I like very much, but I do think kind

536
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: of a lot of them they always viewed wokism as

537
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 3: a as the left taking over the liberals. And I

538
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 3: do understand like there is a surface level plausibility to

539
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 3: that to view things like that, because certainly, like the

540
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 3: influences of critical race theory, and you know, even stuff

541
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 3: from the Frankfurt School, kind of the cultural Marxism type stuff,

542
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: the Long March through the institutions, these were left wing ideas,

543
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: and so when you see every giant corporation and the

544
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 3: political establishment regurgitating kind of left wing talking points, it's

545
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 3: easy on the surface to say, oh, well, look the

546
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: left took over the liberals and now they're all a

547
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: bunch of leftists. But it's really missing the point, and

548
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: so many of them get lost in focusing. Unlike the

549
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 3: intellectual history of wokeism and how you can trace it

550
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: through the universities and what thinker said what, and you know,

551
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 3: but really that's not the interesting component to wocism. The

552
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 3: interesting component is what happened right around twenty twelve when

553
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 3: every single giant corporate media apparatus decided they were all

554
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 3: going to go all in on this stuff.

555
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: And it was it was from the highest levels of power.

556
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 7: You know.

557
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: You can look at those like Nexus charts where you

558
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: track the words like racism and and you know, toxic

559
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 3: masculinity and transgenderism, and they.

560
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 4: All shoot up.

561
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 3: And so the theory that like these kids got out

562
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: of colleges and then got jobs in the corporations, well

563
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: then you would expect like a slow increase, not like

564
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: they didn't take over the New York Times in one year.

565
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 4: So what's going on here?

566
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: And then the more you look back at it, you realize, like, okay,

567
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 3: like why are the CIA and the Federal Reserve pushing

568
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 3: these commercials of like I'm a Latino with the anxiety

569
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 3: disorder who's a single mom and I worked for the CIA.

570
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 3: Like I don't think a college kid got in and

571
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 3: took over the CIA, So what did happen. And what

572
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: happened was after Barack Obama won his historic campaign in

573
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight on the promise of ending the

574
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 3: wars and closing Guantanamo Bay and repealing the George W.

575
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 3: Bush error catastrophe, he went the other direction and expanded it.

576
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 3: And so for his re election campaign, he couldn't say, Hey,

577
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: remember how I said I was going to close Montanamo Bay.

578
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 3: It's closed. Remember how I was going to end the wars. Okay, yeah,

579
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 3: I expanded them. But but I'm for gay marriage, but

580
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: I'm the f And so essentially what they did was

581
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: in the in the wake of the occupy movement, they

582
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: were like, hey, here's here's a Thaustian bargain for the left.

583
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: That's it.

584
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 4: Well, listen, we're not going to give you back. Listen.

585
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 3: The banker bailouts are going to continue, the banker profits

586
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 3: are going to continue, but we will send all of

587
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: our white executives to diversity training.

588
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Right that. No, that's one hundred percent. And you know

589
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: another and my colleague Ryan Graham has really like literally

590
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: written the book on this. But another seminal moment is

591
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: when you have Bernie Sanders, who represents especially in the

592
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: you know, in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, this much more

593
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: class focused and much less identity focused, true like leftist ideology,

594
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: and he's rising in the polls, and he represents this

595
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: threat to the you know, entrenched interest in the Democratic Party.

596
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: And so what Hillary Clinton does, recognizing that this progressive

597
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: movement is a senate in the party, she tries to

598
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: out left him by saying, you know, if you break

599
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: up the big banks, that's not going to end racism,

600
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: that's not going to end sexism. And so she substitutes

601
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: in these cultural identitarian concerns for the universal class based

602
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: concerns that were represented by the Bernie Sanders movement. And

603
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: by the way, it's kind of effective. You know, That's

604
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: how you end up with Bernie Brose being to how

605
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: they're sexist and they're racist and he doesn't care about

606
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: civil rights and all of this stuff, and it works.

607
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: And then, you know, because it's effective, he and much

608
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 2: of the left, I think almost all of the left, frankly,

609
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: the elected left at least, feel the need to also

610
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: lean into this language and this worldview, etc. But it

611
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: comes from the neoliberals and the corporate establishment that want

612
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: to virtue signal and want to you know, want to

613
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: block any sort of more extensive or more revolutionary type

614
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: of reform. And that's where it really originates. So that

615
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: has been something that has really frustrated me as well.

616
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: And you know, and that's a good point and one last,

617
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: one last thing on this and then it gets your reaction.

618
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: But you know, you can see it now with how

619
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: the corporations on a dime, they flip from their virtue

620
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: signaling to like, oh, Mark Zuckerberg, I'm going to do

621
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: content moderation in Austin. I'm gonna wear a big chang,

622
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get into fighting, I'm gonna go on with

623
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: with Joe Rowan. You know, you can see the way

624
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: that they wore this as a convenience to meet the

625
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: mom and then the minute the vibe shift is a oh,

626
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: well we're done with that. We're going to be over here,

627
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, hanging out with Trump and his inauguration.

628
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 4: Now, well, right, I.

629
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: Mean, of course, right, like so these giants, you know,

630
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 3: because we live in such a globalized world and these

631
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: are multinational corporations, so like you know, a lot of

632
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: these corporations are in almost every country. Do you think

633
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: they're they're flying the Pride flag in Saudi Arabia.

634
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you now, like, do they really believe in this stuff? No,

635
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 4: they don't.

636
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 3: This is pure and and of course, you know it's

637
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 3: such a great example. You said that Bernie Sanders. Of course,

638
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: those two Black Lives Matter girls who went up and

639
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: took the microphone from him. And then every single time,

640
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: you know, the accusation from Elizabeth Warren was, oh, he

641
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: was sexist. Many years ago, they would always say the

642
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: Bernie bros. Are sexist. This was always so like essentially,

643
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: what it really was was a neoliberal takeover of the

644
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: left using some leftist rhetoric. And so the focus because

645
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: if you just think about it, right, the focus in

646
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: the first let's say, ten years of the twenty first

647
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: century from the left, like what were they protesting? Though

648
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: they were protesting the war in Iraq, they were protesting

649
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 3: the Patriot Act, and they were protesting the Banker baillouts.

650
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 4: I mean, they had their eye on the prize.

651
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: And like, I'm not a leftist, I probably wouldn't agree

652
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: with a lot of their solutions. For well, I would

653
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: with the war in Iraq, but I probably wouldn't agree

654
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: with necessarily their solutions for the economic stuff. But at

655
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: least they were focused on power. They were focused on

656
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: the people who were actually screwing over the American people.

657
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: And so of course, what do you want to do

658
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: get them distracted? They love the powerful, love a distraction,

659
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 3: especially a distraction that hits the people against each other.

660
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 4: It's divide and conquer.

661
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: It's really like the oldest propaganda that you can find.

662
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 4: And you know, and.

663
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: I'll just say this because I think it's particularly to

664
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: say to you that the intellectual kind of background of

665
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: the woke stuff, which i've just you know, I've read

666
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 3: some of it. It's just it's a waste of time.

667
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: Like it's like, look, that isn't leftism. That was one

668
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: sliver of leftism. It was one school of thought on

669
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 3: the left, and it is by far the worst. And

670
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: if you really want to see somebody like tear apart

671
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: the postmodernists, listen to Noam Chomsky do it. Nobody on

672
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: the right has ever torn them apart better than that

673
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: guy did. He just absolutely destroyed their entire worldview.

674
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 4: And you know, there are great schools of thought on

675
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 4: the left.

676
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: I mean, like like Noom Chomsky is required to read

677
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: it if you want to be like an educated person,

678
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: you have to read his stuff. And I'm not an

679
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: anarcho syndicalist. I don't agree with him on everything, but

680
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 3: he's a brilliant mind and he's got like a real,

681
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 3: you know, solid worldview and a way of looking at

682
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 3: things that you can benefit from even if you don't

683
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 3: agree with him. This other stuff, the postmodernists, they're just

684
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: it's just garbage.

685
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 4: It's nonsense. And so it's not as if like.

686
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 3: That it was the worst school of leftism that they took.

687
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 3: And again, I think that there is something about and

688
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 3: I know this, like I'm you know, obviously I'm I'm

689
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 3: known for being a libertarian, but I'm like, I'm a

690
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: Jewish kid who grew up with a single mom in Brooklyn,

691
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 3: New York. Like I understand the kind of liberal left worldview.

692
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 3: That's what I'm from. Those people are my people. And

693
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: there is something where it.

694
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 4: Was like it it's.

695
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: They find a way to play on your weaknesses in

696
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 3: the same way they did to right wingers after nine

697
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 3: to eleven, where.

698
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 4: It's like what are you?

699
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: Are you a wimp or you a big tough guy

700
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: who wants to go f war to protect your country.

701
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: That was just like kryptonite to right wingers. You couldn't

702
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 3: fight that, you were like an evil person if you didn't.

703
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 3: And the same thing with leftists with racism, you know,

704
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: and for leftists it's like their Achilles heel. And I

705
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: think they're kind of growing out of this now after

706
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: the last few years. It was so abused, but understandably

707
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: given our nation's history and the history of humanity. If

708
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: you care about egalitarianism and you care about abuse of power,

709
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 3: well what's always the worst version of that has always

710
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: been how racial minorities are treated, and not just in

711
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: our society, but particularly in our society, and so to

712
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: be accused of being racist was always the thing that

713
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 3: would make liberals and leftists go like, wooh no, no, no, no, no,

714
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: not me, I'm the opposite of that. That's what they

715
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: It's their whole identity. And so once you weaponized that,

716
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: and you could see it even with Bernie Sanders, how

717
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 3: weak he was. Those two girls were so obnoxious and

718
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 3: came up and stole his microphone in the middle of

719
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: his rally where ten thousand people were there to see him,

720
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: and he went, okay, okay, go ahead, and here's.

721
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: And here's a guy who you know was genuinely like

722
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 2: involved getting arrested in the civil rights movement and has

723
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: a spotless record that you could put up against anyone

724
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: when it comes to you know, racism, sexism, whatever. You

725
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: want to say one last thing before we move on,

726
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: because I want to get your reaction to these Tim

727
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: Dillon clips. But on the woke right piece, it seems

728
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: like a lot of what they're doing too is guilt

729
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: by association, because you do genuinely have like overt anti

730
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 2: Semites who are using the issue of Israel Palestine to

731
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, to ascend and they end up you know,

732
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: backing some of the things that we back, but it

733
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: does genuinely come out of anti semitone thinking of like

734
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: the nick quentteses of the world, where it's like, you know, undeniable.

735
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: And so it seems like part of what's going on

736
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: here too is to say, well, since you support some

737
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 2: of the same things that they support, aren't you also

738
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 2: in anti Semite right.

739
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: Which is like, you know, the worst argument ever is

740
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: the most ridiculous non argument, Like you know, I think

741
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: I told what I was arguing with Wilt Chamberlain online,

742
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 3: which who I do like but is very bad on

743
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: this issue. But he said something like, you have the

744
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 3: same position as like the College you know, blue hair Gids.

745
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said you're like AOC and Code Pink or something. God,

746
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: I mean, we should all aspire to be like Code Pink.

747
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 2: By the way, they're very admirable and brave and courageous people.

748
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: But anyway, go on.

749
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: Well, yes, I mean, while I disagree with some of

750
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: their tactics at times, from a strategic point of view,

751
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: they're right about the wars objectively, and they've been right

752
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: about them since the beginning.

753
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 4: And unlike you know, so many of the fair.

754
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 3: Weather liberals, what I respect about them is they didn't

755
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: shut up during Obama. They're one of the few like

756
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 3: leftist groups out there that was just as good under

757
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 3: him as they were under George W.

758
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 4: Bush. But what is it?

759
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: First of all, AOC is not nearly as good as

760
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 3: them or me on the issue.

761
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 4: But correctly, what does it? What does this mean? I said?

762
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: My response to him was, I was like, I know,

763
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 3: and you're just like Stalin when it comes to the topic.

764
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: Of Hitler, Like, what does that mean?

765
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 3: So if you if I oppose the war in the

766
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: invasion of Iraq in two thousand and three. I guess

767
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: I'm on the same side as Saddam Hussein, but that

768
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: doesn't mean anything, like what point does that prove? And

769
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 3: the question is is the policy correct or incorrect? Not

770
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: who you might agree with, I know. So it's all

771
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 3: it's all just these and look, you know the thing

772
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: that's kind of.

773
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: About it, you know, David, I have to say, I

774
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: think a lot of people operate that way where they

775
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: look at like, oh, AOC thinks this. I have to

776
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: think that, Oh Trump thinks this. I have to think that.

777
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: I mean, unfortunately that I mean, that's what negative polarisation is. Unfortunately.

778
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: I think that is how a lot of people operate politically.

779
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no question, I mean I think I think

780
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 3: there's the in my opinion, the greatest living American hero

781
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: and the greatest person ever run for president, Congressman doctor

782
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: Ron Paul. I think he is single handedly a huge,

783
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: huge factor on why the right wing went so non

784
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: interventionist over the last few years, and a lot of

785
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 3: it was because he was a Republican from Texas who's

786
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: a very personally conservative guy, and he got on stage

787
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 3: and said I oppose all of these wars, and right

788
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: wingers would listen to him in a way that they

789
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 3: just weren't going to listen to Michael Moore, like you

790
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: should throw out a fat communist and tell me that's

791
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: who I got a bit, I got to give up

792
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: my entire identity in order to oppose these wars. And

793
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 3: then here you have a country doctor telling you, like, no,

794
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: you can keep your identity, you just can oppose the wars.

795
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: And so there is powerful social psychology to that, and

796
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 3: that's why people use these tactics. But intellectually it's completely bankrupt.

797
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 3: It makes no sense whatsoever that we agree left wingers

798
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 3: and right wingers agree on lots of things, that doesn't

799
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: mean they're the same. And of course this tactic was

800
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 3: this By the way, the same tactic is what was

801
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 3: used on Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein when they were

802
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 3: challenging the woke orthodoxy. They'd always be referred to as

803
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 3: alt right adjacent, like as if they had anything to

804
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 3: do with the fact that there were white nationalists, you know,

805
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: in Charlottesville or something like that, because they're like one

806
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 3: degree of separation where some of the people who like

807
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: them might also listen.

808
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 4: To their podcasts.

809
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 3: But again, the game with the people who are calling

810
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: people like me woke right is to do the exact

811
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: same thing, to invoke the worst you know of the

812
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 3: racialist jew haters online and then say that also represents

813
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson or Daryl Cooper or me or whoever, and

814
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: it's just not true. I mean, there is you know,

815
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: there certainly are people who are Jew haters who oppose

816
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: this war. We Israel and the neocons are giving them

817
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 3: a lot to work with. They're handing them talking points

818
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 3: every single day to basically help their recruitment efforts. But

819
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 3: there is a huge and I believe much bigger percentage

820
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: of the American people who just oppose this war because

821
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 3: it's awful and it's not in our national interest to

822
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: fund and arm the thing, and don't have any animosity

823
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: toward Jews. So they know, Look, it's like it's always

824
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: the same, It was the same when I debated Douglas Murray.

825
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: They know they can't win the argument because it's indefensible

826
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: on every level. Then so they always have to go

827
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 3: to these these tactics. But the world Right one is

828
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 3: particularly ridiculous.

829
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: They go to sophistry, you know they go to like,

830
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: you know, appeal to X. Oh you're not an authority,

831
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: you couldn't know. I mean this is this has been

832
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: a very effective tactic I think for years on Israel

833
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: Palestine of like it's complicated, you just don't understand. And

834
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: because the images have been so horrific and so constant

835
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: and so undeniable, I think it has if you look

836
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 2: at the polling of the American people, I take it

837
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: has finally broken through, Like no, I am allowed to

838
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: oppose the bombing of babies with my tax dollars and

839
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: I don't need to know one hundred years of history

840
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 2: to know that that's something that's wrong and that I

841
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 2: oppose and do not want to be any part of.

842
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: Let me go ahead and move to this Tim Dillon

843
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: CNN interview because there are a couple of parts here

844
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 2: I want to get your reaction to that I think

845
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: are interesting. So this is a long interview. I watched

846
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: the whole thing yesterdays, about an hour long. They posted

847
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: the whole thing uncut. The interviewer is a woman named

848
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: el Reeves who became kind of famous for the documentary

849
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: she did on Charlottesville when she was with Vice News.

850
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 2: And so she asked him, Dylan, this question of whether

851
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: he is part of a new establishment. Let's take a

852
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: listen to that.

853
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 7: Do you feel like you're part of a new establishment

854
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 7: that's being created.

855
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm part of a new establishment.

856
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 7: I think it would be pretty difficult to look at

857
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 7: these podcasts. I know it's a popular thing right now,

858
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 7: especially in certain media circles, to say that after running

859
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 7: an incredibly unpopular candidate who is introduced very late in

860
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 7: the race, because an elderly man who could not be

861
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 7: the president, who everyone told whose function is the president

862
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 7: for four years? I don't think I'm a new establishment.

863
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 7: If you weigh again a few comedians with podcasts verse

864
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 7: all of the people that supported Kamala Harris, you know,

865
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 7: Democrat Toner. There's billionaires, big people. If the idea is

866
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 7: that me and a few comedians have more power than

867
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 7: multi billionaires, huge media institutions, of whole political party apparatus,

868
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 7: I just don't think most people are going to buy that.

869
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 7: I think it seems like a great way to excuse

870
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 7: running an unpopular candidate on a platform that American people

871
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 7: weren't sold on.

872
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

873
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 3: Well, full disclosure. I loved him and he's a friend

874
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 3: of mine. But there's I think Tim is right. I

875
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 3: think there's a bit more to it than what he

876
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 3: was saying. And I think that you know, it's almost like,

877
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 3: you know, when you use this term the establishment, it's like, well,

878
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: what are you really saying?

879
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sort of like woke. It becomes like, you know,

880
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 2: it can mean anything to anyone.

881
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: So right, so in terms of the in terms of

882
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: political power, like you know, okay, there are big shows

883
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: that have big audiences, and so yeah, maybe you know,

884
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: we just saw the sitting president of the United States

885
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: kind of leverage that. It's kind of insane that every

886
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: politician is not attempting to leverage that. But right, what

887
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 3: Tim is saying about how you have Look, you have

888
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: the three letter agencies, you have the Congress and the

889
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 3: Supreme Court and the presidency, and you have huge gigantic

890
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 3: news corporations, and you have Hollywood and academia.

891
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 4: There are all these things.

892
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 3: So yes, it is ridiculous to call theovonn the establishment.

893
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: But the dynamic that what has happened is that the

894
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: American people have lost all trust in every institution and

895
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 3: so now they are flooding over to the podcast scene,

896
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: and they have much more trust in those people because

897
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 3: they're just real people. Like however you feel about Joe

898
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 3: Rogan and theovone, they're just real people and they're just

899
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 3: telling you how they feel about something, and they're sometimes

900
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 3: they're spot on about that stuff. The point is that

901
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 3: it's not that any of us are the new establishment.

902
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 3: It's that the establishment lied through their freaking teeth over

903
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 3: and over and over again to the American people, to

904
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: the point that the American people just went, we don't

905
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 3: believe a word you say anymore, and because it was

906
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 3: they were intentionally lying to cover up their unbelievable levels

907
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 3: of corruption. And again, like you could just rattle these

908
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: things off, but like in the twenty first century, what

909
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 3: has the establishment handed the American people? Okay, like they

910
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 3: we got nine to eleven, which they did not protect

911
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 3: us from. Then they lied us into war after war

912
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 3: after war, each one being a catastrophe, lying us through

913
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 3: the entire thing. I mean nineteen years in Afghanistan, they

914
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 3: were saying, the army we're building up is doing a

915
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 3: great job, and they're going to totally keep the Taliban

916
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: down as soon as we leave, over and over, you know,

917
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 3: like we were just going through the stuff with putin

918
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 3: lie after lie after lie, the stuff. The way they

919
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: screwed Bernie Sanders out of the nomination, just blatantly cheated

920
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: against him. Then they just blatantly interfered in the election

921
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty, you know, silencing people.

922
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 4: The hunter Biden laptops.

923
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: Killing that story after a year, you know, of locking

924
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: the country down, which was kind of proven to be

925
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 3: all based on pseudoscience from a virus that they freaking

926
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 3: made themselves and then lied through their teeth about that

927
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: so they could cover it up. Then they tried to,

928
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 3: you know, tell us that this clearly senile man was like,

929
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 3: how much do.

930
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 4: You think you can lie? Oh?

931
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 3: And by the way, there was a giant pedophile ring

932
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 3: that is still redacted for national security purposes.

933
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 4: Like what you know? But I like, what the hell? Like,

934
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 4: it doesn't take that much.

935
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 3: You don't have to be a super genius to look

936
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 3: at this and go, I know what's going on here.

937
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 3: You're all a bunch of corrupt liars. And I trust

938
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 3: Theovonne and Joe Rogan more than I trust you know,

939
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 3: Anderson Cooper.

940
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I think there's I think that's a big

941
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: piece of it. I think because that term establishment is

942
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: so you know, up for grabs at this point point

943
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 2: that it's easy for Tim Dillon in that moment to

944
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: make her question look just like silly, like what you

945
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: think I'm more powerful than the CIA? Get out here.

946
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 2: But I also think he doesn't grapple with the way

947
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 2: the world has changed in the way you're talking about,

948
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: and also the fact, like, look, Republicans have the White House,

949
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 2: the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court. There's been a

950
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: huge cultural shift. You know, the podcast sphere that Tim

951
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: Dillan is part of was you know, broadly supportive of

952
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. The richest people in the world are behind

953
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: the you know, the the MAGA movement at this point,

954
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: they're all lined up behind him at the inauguration. Elon

955
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: Musk is literally the richest person in the world and

956
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: probably the second most powerful person, if not the most

957
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: powerful person in the country. And so you know, if

958
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: if that, if that grouping, if that ecosystem of power,

959
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 2: doesn't represent some kind of establishment, then to me, the

960
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 2: word is just completely meaningless. At this point, one saying

961
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 2: like Tim Dillon or you or like you know, Theo

962
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 2: vonn or Rogan or whatever, like the pinnacle of these

963
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 2: noun but part of the ecosystem. Like if you are,

964
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: you know, broadly in sort of that ecosystem, then I

965
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: think it is fair to say, and I do think

966
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 2: you're right that in part it's because the previous quote

967
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: unquote establishment had so clearly failed that there's been you know,

968
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: a kind of regrouping and an interest in alternative voices,

969
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: certainly in terms of the media ecosystem.

970
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I think that there's no question that there's

971
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 4: kind of.

972
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 3: Like like an upstart want to be new elite that

973
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 3: have through their support behind Donald Trump, like they would

974
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 3: like to be the ruling elite now, you know, and

975
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: they're kind of like, hey, the Rockefellers and the Morgans,

976
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 3: that their turn, and we'd like to be the new

977
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 3: ruling elite. I don't know that they they certainly have

978
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: a lot of wealth. I don't know that they've acquired

979
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: that level of power, but I guess.

980
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: Some of them are the same people, you know, I

981
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: mean basis that you know, and now even Elon Musk,

982
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: you know, was previously bestie's with Obama and now he's

983
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: all in with Trump. And yes, Miriam Addales, like the

984
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: you know, the Israel lobby is certainly bipartisan, et cetera.

985
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that is part of I was

986
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 2: watching your coverage of I think you were talking about

987
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: the crackdown on to set et cetera, and you were saying,

988
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 2: you know, the new boss feels a lot like the

989
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: old boss. And you know, I would say that the

990
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 2: tactics deployed by the Trump administration are extraordinary and beyond

991
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 2: what we've seen in the past. Just the overwhelming leveraging

992
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: of the state, students being kidnapped off the street for

993
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: writing out eds, et cetera. But I mean that also

994
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: speaks to the fact that even though there was a

995
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 2: revolutionary energy and a rhetorical challenge of the status quo

996
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: that was represented by the Trump movement, like some of

997
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: the pieces are too just you know, continued upholding of

998
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: the status quo. And I would say, you know, as

999
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 2: evidence of that, you know, another tax cut for the

1000
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 2: wealthy coming up in the you know, as a follow

1001
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: on to his tax cuts for the wealthy in the

1002
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 2: first administry. Again we have differences on e but you know,

1003
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 2: the Ukraine War is still going on. We still have

1004
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: saber rattling with Iran, we still have crushing of dissent

1005
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 2: in you know, an accelerated way, et cetera.

1006
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and there's and obviously we're only you know,

1007
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty days into

1008
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,399
Speaker 3: this administration. And the big question that you just touched

1009
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: on is what's going to happen in the Middle East.

1010
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 3: And you know, it seems like they are moving forward

1011
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 3: with these plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza for the Israelis,

1012
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 3: which is just that is something that is not like

1013
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: the old boss.

1014
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 4: I mean, this is a whole new step.

1015
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: I would say that, as with the term the woke right,

1016
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: it is every single person who they're smearing with that

1017
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 3: term are all the anti war people, all the people

1018
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 3: who are are non interventionist. And one of the things

1019
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: that leaving aside kind of the billionaire class who got

1020
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 3: behind Donald Trump or not. Obviously there were a lot

1021
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 3: of billionaires behind Kamala Harris as well, but those billionaires

1022
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 3: that did get behind Donald Trump, what I will say

1023
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 3: about the Kamete podcast sphere, which I do find to

1024
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 3: be pretty interesting, is that all of them, every last

1025
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 3: one of them, is anti war. And I'm not saying

1026
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 3: that that means that Donald Trump is anti war, or

1027
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 3: that they were right to support Donald Trump, or that

1028
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 3: Donald Trump's administration will end up working out that way.

1029
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 3: But one of the things that is really interesting is, like, dude,

1030
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 3: I mean, you saw, I know you were talking about

1031
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,839
Speaker 3: the other day theo Vane's recent moment where he's talking

1032
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: about the genocide in Gaza was really I thought it

1033
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 3: was really beautiful moment. And I mean, certainly, like Joe

1034
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 3: Rogan has been great on this issue, Tim Dillon is

1035
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 3: probably the best out there at just mocking the whole thing.

1036
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 3: I mean his bid about has Sam Harris has a

1037
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 3: meditation app and then supports bout it was like one

1038
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: of the funniest things I've ever seen. And so I

1039
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 3: think that one of the things that I think is

1040
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 3: really positive about this is that going forward, this is

1041
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 3: kind of the new standard, is that politicians are going

1042
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 3: to have to sit down for these unedited, unscripted long

1043
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 3: form conversations. I actually thought my good friend Andrew Schultz

1044
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: did a great job with Bernie Sanders the other day

1045
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: and got some really interesting moments out of him that,

1046
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 3: like I never Bernie Sanders in so many interviews in

1047
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 3: the last ten years, and I never saw anyone get

1048
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 3: some of the stuff that Andrew got out of him.

1049
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 3: I think the the Democrats and the left more broadly

1050
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 3: speaking are going to have to figure out how to

1051
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 3: play this game too. And I think and I think

1052
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders was good for him for going on and like.

1053
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 4: Attempting to do this.

1054
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 3: The thing is that it's gonna be It's it's the

1055
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 3: death of candidates like Kamala Harris. It's the death of

1056
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 3: candidates who require this extraordinary amount of protection so that

1057
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 3: you can never really see who they are. I think

1058
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 3: those days are gone, and I think that ultimately that's

1059
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 3: a huge net benefit.

1060
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: That's that's I think that's a fair point. I will

1061
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 2: say I'm more skeptical of the shift even as I am,

1062
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 2: you know, myself and this ecosys, because there doesn't see

1063
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: first of all, I mean, I think in terms rather

1064
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 2: than of individual people, of like the incentive structures, you know,

1065
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: corporate media and center structures like you know, whatever, the

1066
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 2: corporate boss's bottom line is upholding that, you know, making

1067
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: sure that you're maintaining your access, playing to your audience. Whatever.

1068
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: That audience is and in new media, the incentive structure

1069
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: is not really different. I mean, it's if anything, it

1070
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: exacerbates some of the worst elements because you see people

1071
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 2: become even more aggressively audience captured because there's more of

1072
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: a connection there. There's no wall between you and the

1073
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 2: advertisers whatsoever. So there's you know, that direct concern and

1074
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 2: there's still and you see this. I mean, I'm sure

1075
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: you have in mind people as well who just want

1076
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: to suck up to the powers that be and do

1077
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 2: the propaganda for their audience, and all the incentives are

1078
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 2: aligned for them to do that. So I'm a little

1079
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: less I'm a little more wary of the shift. While

1080
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: being very cognizant of the failures of you know, legacy media,

1081
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: I'm also wary of the shift. And I also feel like,

1082
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: you know, I do think if you're going to have

1083
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: the president on the vice president on et cetera, even

1084
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 2: if you are a comedian, you do have some sort

1085
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 2: of responsibility to press them on. Okay, you say you're

1086
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 2: anti war, but here's what the track record was in

1087
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 2: the first administration, or well, then why are you taking

1088
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 2: all this money from Maria and medalson Like I think,

1089
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: I think there is a responsibility to do some of

1090
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 2: those that pushback in those interviews, even if you are

1091
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 2: not yourself a journalist, if you're giving someone who has

1092
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 2: huge power or aspires to huge power this tremendous platform.

1093
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: Well, I don't disagree, like I mean, as I'm sure

1094
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 3: you know, like, yeah, if I interviewed Donald Trump, it

1095
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 3: would be a different interview than like the interviews that

1096
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 3: some of my friends have done with them.

1097
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1098
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: That being said, you know, it's everything is compared to

1099
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 3: what it's not, you know, perfection versus what we have.

1100
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: It's would you rather have this happening honestly and end?

1101
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 3: Or would you rather be Theovonne and Joe Rogan? And

1102
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 3: I will say that while neither THEO or Joe gave

1103
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 3: Donald Trump like up pressing, you know, like interview, like

1104
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 3: they weren't grilling him, right, But I did think with

1105
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,479
Speaker 3: THEO Vaughan, you saw a different side of Donald Trump

1106
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 3: than you've ever seen before. And I thought it was

1107
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 3: kind of fascinating in a way. Like the stuff him

1108
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 3: getting into, like his brother killing himself with alcohol and

1109
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 3: stuff like that, I actually thought was very interesting.

1110
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 4: And like you know, Donald Trump is such a weird guy, like.

1111
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 3: He's just however you feel about Donald Trump, he is

1112
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 3: the strangest freaking human being. And that like he doesn't

1113
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 3: speak like other people, he doesn't look like other people.

1114
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 3: He looked he's like a cartoon character. Like it's like

1115
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 3: you're watching the news and then a cartoon like Roger

1116
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 3: Rabbit or something. His skin color is different than everybody

1117
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 3: else's and so it was just kind of interesting to

1118
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 3: me to see that. And I will say that on

1119
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 3: the Joe Rogan interview, I actually thought that Joe Joe

1120
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 3: exposed something in Donald Trump when he asked him about

1121
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 3: the election that I think nobody else has been able to.

1122
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 3: And part of that is because it was a friendly

1123
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 3: environment and they were just having a conversation.

1124
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 4: And then when he gets to asking him.

1125
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,439
Speaker 3: About the election, you saw that Donald Trump just really

1126
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 3: had nothing. He had no argument for why twenty twenty

1127
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,280
Speaker 3: was stolen, and then he almost like kind of resorted

1128
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 3: to just laughing about it because he didn't have a

1129
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 3: real answer.

1130
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,760
Speaker 4: So look, I'll I'll grant you that. And I remember

1131
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 4: I talked to.

1132
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 3: Mehdi Hassan about this once and he was basically saying

1133
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: the same thing. He was like, no, this is even

1134
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 3: worse than the corporate media because they're not just giving

1135
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: like puff interviews to Donald Trump. And I was like,

1136
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 3: how many CNN interviews has Donald Trump done? It's not

1137
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 3: doing anything like just ask it when CNN asked about

1138
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 3: the election. He's just gonna dunk on the CNN anchor

1139
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 3: and then that's gonna be his base. Is gonna love

1140
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 3: that at least now, you know, Yes, is audience capture

1141
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,320
Speaker 3: a thing? Yeah, of course, but that's that's a lot

1142
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 3: better than corporate capture. I mean, at least you're be

1143
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 3: responsible to your audience and not some weapons.

1144
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 2: But I think it's corporate capture too. I mean again,

1145
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: like the advertisers all right there as well. I mean

1146
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 2: with the Rogan interview, you know, I just I think

1147
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 2: what people took away, what most people took away from

1148
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: that wasn't like, oh, he looked like a fool on

1149
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 2: the election denial stuff. It was at a time when

1150
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: he was being framed as extreme, and I think he

1151
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 2: is extreme. I think his actions in office this time

1152
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: have really proven he's even more extreme than I expected.

1153
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 2: He got to go on and like people are like, oh,

1154
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: he just seems like a normal guy. Like I think

1155
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 2: that's what most people took away from that. And Joe himself,

1156
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: when he previously didn't want to interview Trump because he

1157
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: didn't he said, I don't want to help him. You know,

1158
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 2: he recognized that there was power in giving someone three

1159
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 2: hours to just look like a normal, everyday guy. And

1160
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 2: so listen, I'm not I'm like, I'm not mad at

1161
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 2: any of these people for doing the interviews. I think

1162
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 2: it's a very difficult balance to strike all of that,

1163
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: But I do think that it would be better served

1164
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 2: having more pushback and that you know, at least in

1165
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, in the corporate media structure, there is some

1166
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: sense of Okay, we've got to ask the tough question,

1167
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: we've got to be prepared for the follow up, etc.

1168
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 2: And so, you know, that's my concern about the direction

1169
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 2: we're going in. And you know, at least, let me

1170
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 2: give Trump the let me be charitable to him. He

1171
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: does all of those mainstream interviews too, right, So it's

1172
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: not like he's only but I think for a lot

1173
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 2: of politicians, and I see this because we have a

1174
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 2: lot of politicians who won't come on this show because

1175
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: they know we will ask them difficult questions. And I'm

1176
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: talking actually more about Democrats than Republicans. When you have

1177
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: an ecosystem set up where you know, you can just

1178
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 2: go and do an hour or two hours or three

1179
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 2: hours or whatever and not get asked really a single

1180
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 2: challenging question. Of course, most politicians, that's what they're going

1181
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 2: to gravitate towards, because that feels a lot more comfortable.

1182
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, when Joe changed his mind

1183
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 3: to have Donald Trump at the decision he made was

1184
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 3: that he was gonna have both of them on. And

1185
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 3: so one politician did not want to go into that environment.

1186
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 3: And so you know, I just look, I get your point,

1187
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 3: and you know, there's something to the whole thing, like

1188
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 3: it is, you know, it's it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous that

1189
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: all of us are in the position that we're in.

1190
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 3: I don't mean you, I mean me and the comedians.

1191
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 3: It's it's ridiculous. But again it's like here we are

1192
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 3: like I don't know, you know, I mean, this is

1193
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 3: look if well.

1194
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: You're absolutely right that the Democrats have to like this

1195
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 2: is the world that we live in now. And so

1196
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 2: we see Pete and you see Gavin. You see the

1197
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 2: ones who you know, were able to string together a

1198
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 2: few sentences going out there and trying to play in

1199
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: the pond.

1200
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, and the ones who aren't so incredibly insecure

1201
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 3: about their own corruption that they're terrified of being exposed.

1202
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 3: And you know, and and Gavin Newsom, is that, I

1203
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: think because he's a sociopath. But you know, Bernie Sanders,

1204
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 3: is that because he really believes in the stuff he's saying,

1205
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 3: or at least to some degree, more than most politicians.

1206
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 3: And but I think that, you know, really the the

1207
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 3: kind of lesson here for anybody who's like, you know,

1208
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 3: who doesn't like the way, say Joe Rogan interviewed Donald

1209
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 3: Trump or something.

1210
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 4: Like that, is that you know, they.

1211
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 3: Joe was pushed by the establishment toward Donald Trump in

1212
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 3: the most aggressive manner. I mean, they literally tried to

1213
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 3: ruin the guy, and they went after him on stuff

1214
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 3: that he was right about. I mean, like it's like

1215
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 3: he would if his doctor recommended he take iver mexic.

1216
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 4: He was right to take it.

1217
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, the whole thing with iver mectin

1218
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 3: the reason why doctors recommend it is because it can't hurt.

1219
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 4: It's like it's a drug that really doesn't have any

1220
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 4: negative side effects.

1221
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 2: What you know, well kind of whatever.

1222
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a couple studies that seemed to indicate

1223
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 3: that if you take it early on, it might help

1224
01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 3: with COVID, And then there were a bunch of other

1225
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 3: studies that kind of were like, now, it doesn't really

1226
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 3: seem to be doing anything, but a lot of doctors

1227
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 3: were like, well it can't hurt, so throw this in

1228
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 3: the cocktail as well. And then they they colored his

1229
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 3: face on CNN. They went this like vicious cancelation attempt

1230
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 3: against him. It's like, maybe don't do that to the

1231
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 3: guy with the biggest show. What were you think of?

1232
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 3: What was the game plan here, Brian Stelter, You thought

1233
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 3: you were gonna take Joe Rogan down? Like how removed

1234
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 3: from reality these people are? And so look, I hope

1235
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 3: I hope that shows like Breaking Points continue to grow.

1236
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 3: I hope it gets to a point where, like, yeah,

1237
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 3: like if if a presidential candidate had to go through

1238
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 3: Crystal and Sega in order to get to.

1239
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 4: The White House, I think that would be a great world.

1240
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 2: That's the world we all want to live in.

1241
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 3: Yes, And so we got to keep we gotta keep

1242
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 3: pushing forward with this, but that the corporate legacy media

1243
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 3: apparatus had to be destroyed in order for us to

1244
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 3: have any any chance of, yeah, replacing it with something better.

1245
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 2: I just hope what is built in its wake is better.

1246
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 2: And I'm concerned about that. Cashpitel and Dan Bongin now

1247
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 2: got quietquestion by Maria Bartiromo about Hey, like, what's going

1248
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 2: on with this Epstein situation? And it was pretty pretty

1249
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 2: interesting their responses. Let's take a listen to that.

1250
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:13,919
Speaker 8: You said, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. People don't believe it. Well,

1251
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 8: I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion.

1252
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 8: But as someone who has worked as a public defender,

1253
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 8: as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's

1254
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 8: been in the Metropolitan Detention Center, who's been in segregated housing,

1255
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 8: you know a suicide when you see one, and that's

1256
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 8: what that was.

1257
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 2: He killed himself again, you want me to get I've

1258
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: seen the whole file. He killed himself.

1259
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 8: I know it's hard work.

1260
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: There you go, Dave case closed over. Nothing to see here.

1261
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 4: Well, I have no more questions, that's right, I mean,

1262
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 4: there you go.

1263
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: They answered every question you could possibly imagine.

1264
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 3: It doesn't It really doesn't help that. My co host

1265
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 3: Rob Bernstein is a very very funny comedian, a very

1266
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 3: bright guy. But he made this point the other day,

1267
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 3: but he's like, it's just their body language looks like

1268
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 3: it's like like a hostage tape or something like that.

1269
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 4: That doesn't really help.

1270
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 2: Look in Cashertel always looks like, I don't know, wild eyed.

1271
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 2: It's just there's always a look there where you're like,

1272
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: whoa buddy, relax, you.

1273
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 3: Know, agree, Yeah, his stiff and wide eyed for sure.

1274
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 3: But it's just the thing that was so pathetic about this,

1275
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 3: and they do it on a several different topics, is

1276
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 3: that this is just like, what is this? Trust me,

1277
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:27,400
Speaker 3: I've been there, I'm a prosecutor seeing the file.

1278
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 4: It's not a thing.

1279
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, I'm gonna need a little bit more

1280
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 3: than that, particularly on you know, look, with Jeffrey Ebstein,

1281
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 3: like you never he was clearly like an intelligence asset

1282
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 3: or operative. And with these intelligence you know, operations, we're

1283
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 3: probably never going to get one hundred percent of the

1284
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 3: story and then we'll know everything. But we really do

1285
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 3: know enough with Jeffrey Ebstein to know that this was

1286
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,800
Speaker 3: clearly some high level conspiracy. I mean, the guy is

1287
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: like he's he's teaching at Dalton with no background that

1288
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 3: would like lead to that. Then he's at bear Sterns,

1289
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 3: He's made partner within like a couple years, he's like,

1290
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 3: I think, a billionaire, and no one can trace where

1291
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 3: he made any of his money. That doesn't exist, like

1292
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 3: that never exists. And then he's he's caught, and we

1293
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 3: have the prosecutor on record saying I gave him a

1294
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 3: sweetheart deal because I was told by intelligence that he's

1295
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 3: connected to them. So then when he dies, he's in

1296
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 3: a secured prison and there's multiple camera failures. Like all

1297
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 3: I'm saying is like I don't even know if he

1298
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 3: did kill himself or didn't kill himself. I think perhaps

1299
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 3: he did under duress. Who knows. But the idea that

1300
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 3: you're just gonna be like now, looked at it. Nothing

1301
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 3: to see here when you, like your administration ran on

1302
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 3: the promise that you were gonna release this stuff and

1303
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 3: then made a whole spectacle about giving it to some influencers,

1304
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 3: and really you release nothing.

1305
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 4: It's just too ridiculous.

1306
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would just say, like to to the

1307
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 3: broader point, because this is like my number one you know,

1308
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 3: like theme right now with the Trump administration is that

1309
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 3: you know, as I was talking about before, like there

1310
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 3: have been there have been these very serious crimes committed

1311
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,480
Speaker 3: by the government against the American people over the last

1312
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 3: few years, and whether this is with the health stuff

1313
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 3: or in terms of wars, in terms of like lockdowns,

1314
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,959
Speaker 3: in all of these things, and the people who Donald

1315
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 3: Trump has put in, many of them, Bobby Kennedy, Toulcy Gabbard,

1316
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 3: Cash Pateel, Dan Bongino, Pete Hagsath, They've basically made a

1317
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 3: living and Donald Trump himself in calling out these crimes,

1318
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:43,080
Speaker 3: and yet there is no move not to expose them,

1319
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 3: let alone hold people accountable. And I do think that

1320
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 3: there is gonna be like ultimately, and I think this

1321
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 3: kind of ties into the podcast or conversation. I mean,

1322
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 3: I'm actually fairly optimistic, like see where this goes over

1323
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 3: the next few years. I don't think any of these

1324
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: people are just Trump sick ephants who are gonna love

1325
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 3: Donald Trump no matter what. And I do think that

1326
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 3: there's a realization universe.

1327
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think.

1328
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 3: I think I think a lot of people are obviously

1329
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 3: Trump has a cult like following, and there are those

1330
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 3: that will defend him no matter what, but there are

1331
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 3: a lot of people who are going to be like,

1332
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 3: oh no, this is this is BS.

1333
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 4: Like I'm sorry, you can't just come up here and

1334
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 4: tell me.

1335
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know we stoked these flames about this obvious

1336
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 3: conspiracy for all of these years. But eh, got in there,

1337
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 3: looked at it. Nothing to see here, trust me.

1338
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pathetic.

1339
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, and I love when he's like, oh, I've seen

1340
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 2: the file, Okay, we'll show us the file, Like what

1341
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 2: was in that file? Tell us more, you know, like you.

1342
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 3: Just take you There's basic, basic, basic, basic questions about

1343
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 3: the Jeffrey Ebstein thing.

1344
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 4: Okay, just like the very basic ones.

1345
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 3: Okay, the prosecutor who's on record saying intelligence told me

1346
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 3: he was connected to us? Who told you that? Who

1347
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 3: was he connected to? Number two? Where did the tapes go?

1348
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,439
Speaker 3: Forget release the files or the plane logs? Where are

1349
01:06:57,480 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 3: the tapes?

1350
01:06:58,640 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 4: Okay?

1351
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 3: And it's a little bit of a weird area because

1352
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 3: you know, you're talking about like child pornography, so like

1353
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 3: I'm not saying release the tapes, but like, is there

1354
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 3: one expert who goes through them or something?

1355
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 4: And like I don't know, but like.

1356
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 2: I want to know.

1357
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 3: I want to know who the adults are in that

1358
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 3: in that equation. And then you know, even if you're

1359
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 3: going to say this stuff about his death. Okay, so

1360
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 3: why did the cameras all go out right like explain

1361
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 3: those basic things to me and then we're talking. But

1362
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 3: don't tell me I've seen the files. You don't get

1363
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 3: to see him. There's nothing there.

1364
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you know this is I never

1365
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 2: had any expectations about the Epstein files getting released under

1366
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 2: this administration because for one thing, look, Trump was a

1367
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 2: friend of him for years. I mean, Epstein claimed take

1368
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 2: it for what it's worth that they were bus runds

1369
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 2: for a decade. And Trump has always on the on JFK,

1370
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 2: was always like, yes, we're going to release the files.

1371
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 2: You know, on other UFOs, yes we're going to release

1372
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:51,840
Speaker 2: the files. By the way that you know, the UFO

1373
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 2: one hasn't happened either, but the JFK one, we did

1374
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 2: get something. When it came to Epstein, he was always

1375
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 2: a little cag He was always like, oh, well, you know,

1376
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, and we got to worry about people's privacy.

1377
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 2: And when Ghlaine when he was asked about Glaine Maxwell

1378
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 2: being in prison, he was like, I wish her well.

1379
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 2: So there was always a weird It was very strange

1380
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 2: there with Trump with regard to Epstein, which is why

1381
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,959
Speaker 2: is not a surprise to me at all that we've

1382
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 2: gotten less than nothing. You know, the binders that they

1383
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 2: gave to the influencers had documents that were more redacted

1384
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 2: than what Gawker had released in like twenty fifteen. That's

1385
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,599
Speaker 2: what we're talking about here. So that wasn't a surprise

1386
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 2: to be that we got nothing out of this administration

1387
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 2: with regard to him, because I mean, we know, like

1388
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 2: I'm not, you know, accusing Donald Trump if anything for Taylor,

1389
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 2: but we know they were associates. We know he was

1390
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 2: on the plane, we know that they were friendly in

1391
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 2: swimming in some of the same circles.

1392
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 3: And there's that one very very bizarre tape of Donald

1393
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 3: Trump where he's actually talking about how young Jeffrey Epstein

1394
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 3: likes the girls. It's like the creepiest thing you've ever seen. So, yeah, look,

1395
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 3: I agree with you that. And then the obvious other

1396
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 3: elephant in the room is that you know it was

1397
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 3: Dan Bongino. I think he was on Tim Poole's show,

1398
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 3: but at one point he said that he was connected

1399
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 3: to Middle East intelligence.

1400
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 9: Oh I didn't know that Crystal, middle East Crystal. You

1401
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 9: know that she was sure he was probably Middle East. Yeah, yeah,

1402
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 9: somewhere you know, the UAE or something like that. Right, right, right, exactly, yes,

1403
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 9: all of us. Where is that Katari money?

1404
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 3: By the way, But so you know, when you have

1405
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 3: this element too, and you have the most zionist you know,

1406
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 3: uh administration in American history. Yeah, I'm not holding my

1407
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,640
Speaker 3: breath for them to release any real information about this.

1408
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, all right, Dave, Well, I will let you

1409
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 2: go at that. Thank you so much. It's been fun.

1410
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it, and you know, always appreciate you.

1411
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 2: Obviously we have like political ideological differences, but what I

1412
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 2: really appreciate is that you try to be honest and

1413
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 2: don't just didn't just turn into like a Trump sick

1414
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 2: of fant because you were, you know, more favorable towards

1415
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 2: him than Kamala Harris and it's a fairly red trait.

1416
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 2: So I really appreciate and respect.

1417
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:01,640
Speaker 4: You for that.

1418
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much. And as I've said many times,

1419
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 3: I love breaking points. I watched the show every day

1420
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,720
Speaker 3: and so thank you guys for everything you do.

1421
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:10,599
Speaker 4: This was a lot of fun.

1422
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 2: All right, Good to see you. Take care, Dave. Israel

1423
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 2: is now going full mask off, genocidal ethnic cleansing, just

1424
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,719
Speaker 2: announcing the most horrific plans you can imagine in public.

1425
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 2: Let's start with Israeli Finance Minister Bezial Oil Smotrich, who

1426
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 2: made some just outrageous, horrifying comments. Let's put this up

1427
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 2: on the screen that really exposes what their plans are here.

1428
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 2: You know we covered yesterday they've decided to let in

1429
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: this pitdling amount of aid, and he explains why. He

1430
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 2: gave a speech Monday defending Israel's strategy of mass devastation

1431
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 2: and Gaza, saying humanitarian aid is only being allowed in

1432
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 2: quote so the world does not stop us and accuse

1433
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: us of war crimes. The goal, he insisted, is to

1434
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 2: conquer Gasa clear and stay until that area is dismantled

1435
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 2: beyond recognition. We could put the next one up on

1436
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: the screen as well. Boasting of the scale of destruction,

1437
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 2: Smotritz said, we are dismantling Gaza, leaving it in ruins

1438
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:12,720
Speaker 2: with unprecedented destruction and the world still hasn't stopped us.

1439
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 2: He also indicated that Trump and him and the Net

1440
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 2: Yahoo government are all sympatico with regards to what they

1441
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,639
Speaker 2: want to happen in terms of a total ethnic cleansing

1442
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:27,639
Speaker 2: of the Gaza Strip. He said, quote the population will

1443
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 2: reach the south of the Strip and from there God

1444
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 2: willing to third countries as part of President Trump's plan.

1445
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 2: So this is crucial context for understanding what is happening,

1446
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 2: for understanding how bb Netnyahu and Trump and the whole

1447
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 2: BB's terrorist extremist coalition, how they all are apparently completely

1448
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 2: aligned in their final solution, end goal. And it's also

1449
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 2: important for contextualizing this pitdling amount of aid that is

1450
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 2: being let into the Strip. And I'll have more on

1451
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 2: that in just a moment. Let's go ahead and put

1452
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 2: bib Netnahu's comments up on the screen here as well,

1453
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 2: which echo what's Mootrich was saying. He says, the Gaza

1454
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 2: aid scheme offers Israel symbolic cover to finish the genocide.

1455
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,679
Speaker 2: This is reporting from dropside quote drop site. We're going

1456
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 2: to take control of all the Gaza Strip, bb valwed

1457
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 2: Monday in a video released by his Office announcing that

1458
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 2: Israel would begin delivering minimal humanitarian aid, food and medicine only.

1459
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 2: Net Yahoo claimed to an international pressure, including from pro Israel,

1460
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 2: Republican senators and the White House, required the appearance of

1461
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: humanitarian intervention. Put the next piece up on the screen

1462
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,799
Speaker 2: here as well, so we can see this joint statement

1463
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 2: from the leaders of the UK, France and Canada, which

1464
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 2: is pretty extraordinary in terms of the pressure that net

1465
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 2: nyahoo is now responding to. We strongly oppose the expansion

1466
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 2: of Israel's military operations in Gaza. The level of human

1467
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 2: suffering in Gaza is intolerable. Yesterday's announcement that Israel will

1468
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 2: allow a basic quantity of food into Gaza is wholly inaccurate.

1469
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 2: They say, we condemned the abhorrent language used recently by

1470
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 2: members of the Israeli government. That's like Smotrich what I

1471
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: just showed you, threatening that, in their despair at the

1472
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 2: destruction of Gaza, civilians will start to relocate. Permanent force

1473
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:17,800
Speaker 2: displacement is a breach of international law. And so for

1474
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:20,880
Speaker 2: these nations to be we'll see if they follow through,

1475
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 2: we'll see what happens. But for these nations to be

1476
01:13:24,120 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 2: threatening some real potential sanctions on Israel for their continued

1477
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 2: genocidal atrocities in the Gaza Strip. Is a significant development,

1478
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,240
Speaker 2: and in fact drop site also reported on the fact

1479
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 2: that the EU is going to review Israel's trade packed

1480
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 2: over human rights violations in Gaza. That trade pack grants

1481
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 2: Israel terror free access to most of the EU market,

1482
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 2: It enables joint work in research, innovation, and security. It

1483
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 2: requires respect for human rights and democratic principles as a

1484
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 2: core element. So this is some of the pressure that

1485
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:04,560
Speaker 2: Natanyahu is responding to by allowing in this absolutely pathetically

1486
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,840
Speaker 2: inadequate amount of aid, thinking that will give them cover

1487
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 2: to continue their genocidal assault and effectuate their and Trump's

1488
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 2: shared goal of completely ethnically cleansing the Gaza Strip, pushing

1489
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 2: Palestinians out to third countries. We've seen there been reports

1490
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 2: on discussions with some of those third countries to know,

1491
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 2: to push them to take in Palestinians. This has long

1492
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 2: been the parent goal. Now it's just being overtly stated

1493
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:37,640
Speaker 2: to create so much misery and suffering and death and

1494
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 2: starvation in the Gaza Strip that Palestinians would be pressured

1495
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 2: to flee the area and allow Israel to totally annex

1496
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 2: it and take it over. So let's talk a little

1497
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 2: bit more about the quote unquote humanitarian aid being allowed in.

1498
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: Put the next piece up on the screen. As of yesterday,

1499
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 2: five trucks, five trucks of aid had entered the Gaza

1500
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 2: Strip at a time when more than two million people

1501
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 2: were not sure how many Palestinians still remain in the

1502
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:08,080
Speaker 2: Gaza Strip after all of this horror and death. Are

1503
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 2: living under siege, the majority suffering from famine and malnutrition.

1504
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 2: The entry of the trucks was purely formal and media driven,

1505
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 2: aimed at polishing the image rather than providing relief to

1506
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 2: the starving and afflicted. Put the Al Jazeera tear sheet

1507
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,640
Speaker 2: up on the screen. Necks. That provides a little bit

1508
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 2: more information. First trickle of eight and three months after

1509
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 2: Israel allows limited food into Gaza. By the way, there

1510
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:34,479
Speaker 2: were also some indications that okay, five trucks or so

1511
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 2: have entered, and some of those trucks did not even

1512
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:40,639
Speaker 2: contain food. Is the indication you read you a little

1513
01:15:40,640 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 2: bit from this article from Al Jazeera. Un Aide chief

1514
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 2: Tom Fletcher on Monday said Israeli authories had cleared nine

1515
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,639
Speaker 2: they say aid trucks to enter Gaza through the Karam

1516
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 2: abou Sealm crossing known as Karam Shalom in Israel, calling

1517
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 2: it a drop in the ocean when so many more

1518
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 2: supplies are needed to address a rapidly deteriorating humanitarian crisis.

1519
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 2: Figure is far short of the more than five hundred

1520
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 2: trucks that entered Gaza daily before the start of the

1521
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:08,679
Speaker 2: war in October twenty twenty three. Food security experts last

1522
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: week warned of famine amid accusations that Israel is using

1523
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 2: starvation as a weapon of war. Quote. Significantly more aid

1524
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 2: must be allowed into Gaza starting tomorrow morning. The numbers

1525
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:20,920
Speaker 2: I've seen are that what really needs to enter is

1526
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 2: roughly one thousand trucks per day to sufficiently feed the population. Obviously,

1527
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 2: five trucks, nine trucks is utterly pathetic and meaningless, and

1528
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, truly backs up this idea that the Israeli

1529
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 2: government is just trying to provide some sort of a

1530
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:42,440
Speaker 2: show so that they can continue their war crimes unimpeded.

1531
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 2: We also know over the past several days it has

1532
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:49,960
Speaker 2: been one of the most horrifically bloody times. Hundreds of

1533
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 2: Palestinians killed just in the past several days. As Israel

1534
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 2: has renewed their onslaught in Gaza. People are being forcibly

1535
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 2: relocated once again again. And uh, you know, the Trump administration,

1536
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 2: after making some noises about oh maybe we'll maybe we'll

1537
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:11,559
Speaker 2: garner a ceasefire and securing the release of the American

1538
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: Israeli idea of soldiery down Alexander who had been taken

1539
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 2: by Hamas. After securing that release, it seems like they're,

1540
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 2: you know, allowing bb All systems go to do whatever

1541
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 2: he wants to do. So that's where things stand today.

1542
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: Truly dire and horrific circumstance, and at least as of today,

1543
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 2: appears that Trump, Smotrich and bbnat Noaho all on the

1544
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 2: same plan with what they want to accomplish in the

1545
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 2: Gaza strip. All right, there's another story I wanted to

1546
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 2: get to here, some updates with regard to the Trump

1547
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 2: Administration's deportation policies. The Trump administration has announced that they

1548
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 2: are charging a sitting Member of Congress Lamonica Mackiver after

1549
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:55,400
Speaker 2: an incident involving ICE agents outside of a facility in Newark,

1550
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 2: New Jersey. That they are using for immigrant detention. So

1551
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and put this announce up on the screen.

1552
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:04,280
Speaker 2: This is from US Attorney Alena Haba. She says she

1553
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 2: is going to dismiss misdemeanor tres passing charges against Mayor

1554
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,799
Speaker 2: Ross Baraka invites him to toward the ICE facility. However,

1555
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:17,080
Speaker 2: she says she is going to pursue assault charges against

1556
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 2: Lamanica machiv Leave this up on a screen for a second.

1557
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,719
Speaker 2: I'll just read a little bit of that. She says,

1558
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:27,400
Speaker 2: Representative Lamanica MacIvor assaulted, impeded, and interfered with law enforcement

1559
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 2: in violation of Title eighteen US Code, Section eleven a one.

1560
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,599
Speaker 2: This conduct cannot be overlooked by the chief federal law

1561
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,000
Speaker 2: enforcement official in the statement New Jersey, and it is

1562
01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 2: my constitutional obligation to ensure our federal law enforcement is

1563
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:44,559
Speaker 2: protected when executing their duties. We also have a statement

1564
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 2: from Representative Mackivor on these charges, which, by the way,

1565
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 2: as of last night, had not yet been officially filed,

1566
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,280
Speaker 2: but are expected to be filed. She said. Earlier this month,

1567
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 2: I joined my colleagues to inspect the treatment of ICE

1568
01:18:56,680 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 2: detainees at Delaney Hall in my district. We were our

1569
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:04,000
Speaker 2: lawful oversight responsibilities, as members of Congress have done many

1570
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:07,320
Speaker 2: times before, and our visit should have been peaceful. In short, instead,

1571
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 2: ICE agents created an unnecessary and unsafe confrontation when they

1572
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 2: chose to arrest Mayor Baraka. The charges against me are

1573
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 2: purely political. They mischaracterized and distort my actions, and are

1574
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 2: meant to criminalize and deter legislative oversight. This administration will

1575
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 2: never stop me from working for the people in our

1576
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,839
Speaker 2: district and standing up for what is right. I'm thankful

1577
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 2: for the outpouring of support I've received, and I look

1578
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 2: forward to the truth being laid out clearly in court.

1579
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 2: This type of a charge, if they do in fact

1580
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:36,640
Speaker 2: move forward with it, could result in prison time for

1581
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,439
Speaker 2: this sitting member of Congress. So this all goes back

1582
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:42,800
Speaker 2: to an incident that we covered. I actually got to

1583
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 2: interview the mayor of Newark about what unfolded. The Mayor

1584
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 2: of Newark, alongside three Congressional representatives representing New Jersey, arrived

1585
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 2: at this facility that ICE is being used over the

1586
01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 2: objections of the city. By the way, the city is

1587
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,519
Speaker 2: suing ICE over the use of this facility, claiming they

1588
01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 2: don't have the proper permitting. So in any case, these

1589
01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:05,240
Speaker 2: three members of Congress and the mayor decided to go

1590
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 2: and attempt to perform an inspection of the facility. Now,

1591
01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:12,000
Speaker 2: there's legislation that was passed during the first Trump administration

1592
01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 2: that allows members of Congress to conduct surprise inspections without

1593
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:21,600
Speaker 2: requiring any sort of prior authorization of any DHS used facility.

1594
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 2: So they were well within their legal rights to conduct

1595
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 2: that oversight. The mayor, however's not included in that legal provision.

1596
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 2: So when he shows up, he's allowed to be on

1597
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:34,439
Speaker 2: the property for some period of time, he said, roughly

1598
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 2: an hour. Then the agents there said, okay, you have

1599
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 2: to go. He exits the facility onto public property, and

1600
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 2: then he's there for a while, and then he starts

1601
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 2: to get word that they are going to come and

1602
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:49,720
Speaker 2: arrest him for alleged trespassing. That is when a very

1603
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 2: chaotic scene unfolded as these massed agents of the state

1604
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 2: attempted and eventually did arrest the mayor of Newark for

1605
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 2: this alleged trespassing. And now by the way, that charge

1606
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 2: has been dropped. There was a rush of the crowd

1607
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 2: and the agents were struggling to get a hold of

1608
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:10,839
Speaker 2: the mayor. And that is when the state is claiming,

1609
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 2: when this government is claiming that Representative McIvor quote unquote

1610
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,200
Speaker 2: assaulted an ICE agents. So let's go ahead and take

1611
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 2: a look at the video. This is from DHS. This

1612
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 2: is some of the body camera footage. The woman in

1613
01:21:23,280 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 2: the red blazer here is representative of mcivory. You can

1614
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:29,360
Speaker 2: see she's being pushed by the crowd at one point.

1615
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 2: This is I think what they're really pinning it on

1616
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,679
Speaker 2: her elbow there makes some contact with one of these

1617
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 2: masked agents of the state, and they are claiming this

1618
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 2: represents assault. I mean, it won't surprise you that very much.

1619
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I think that she is right that

1620
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:47,120
Speaker 2: this is blatantly political and his attempt to frighten other

1621
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:51,320
Speaker 2: members of Congress from conducting oversight and from opposing this

1622
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 2: administration's deportation policies. Overall, we know also that this administration

1623
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 2: has threatened those not just memory of Congress, but anyone

1624
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 2: who opposes their deportation policies as potentially providing material aid

1625
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 2: to terrorist organizations. Seb Gorka, who is this administration's counter

1626
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,960
Speaker 2: terrors are, has floated that so This is a dramatic

1627
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 2: escalation and as I said, could theoretically, if she was

1628
01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 2: found guilty, result in Representative MacIvor being held in you know,

1629
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 2: having to serve a prison sentence for some period of time.

1630
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:32,720
Speaker 2: So huge escalation here from the Trump administration, something they

1631
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:34,840
Speaker 2: have been threatening. You know. Tom Homan has been out

1632
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,280
Speaker 2: there also threatening AOC and others over their seminars that

1633
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 2: they've given allowing immigrants to know their rights if they

1634
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 2: are faced with, you know, if a nice agent shows up,

1635
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 2: if they are faced with potential deportation. He has also

1636
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 2: threatened representatives before with pursuing legal action against them, and

1637
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 2: the Trump administration has also lifted a previous guideline that

1638
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 2: required an escalation sort of up the chain of the

1639
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 2: DOJ in order to charge elected officials, so they have

1640
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,360
Speaker 2: taken those protections off. So this is something they've been

1641
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:08,280
Speaker 2: telegraphing for a while, and in this incident they've found

1642
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:13,480
Speaker 2: their opportunity and the perfect excuse to go after Democratic

1643
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 2: members of Congress. At the same time, there's a lot

1644
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 2: unfolding in the courts that I want to update you

1645
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:20,360
Speaker 2: on going in both directions. So let's put this first

1646
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:24,240
Speaker 2: piece up on the screen. The Supreme Court yesterday lifted

1647
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:31,200
Speaker 2: a block on deportations of Venezuelans who'd been given protected

1648
01:23:31,280 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 2: status under the Biden administration. Let me just read you

1649
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 2: a little bit from this article. So, the Supreme Court

1650
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 2: on Monday let the Trump administration for now remove protections

1651
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 2: from nearly three hundred and fifty thousand Venezuelan immigrants who

1652
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 2: had been allowed to remain in the US without risk

1653
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 2: of deportation under a programming program known as Temporary Protected Status.

1654
01:23:50,920 --> 01:23:54,679
Speaker 2: The Court's brief order was unsigned, gave no reasons, which

1655
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,320
Speaker 2: is typical when the Justices rule on emergency applications. No

1656
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:00,800
Speaker 2: vote count was listed, although Justice Katanji Bran Jackson noted

1657
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 2: she would have denied the administration's request. The Justices announced

1658
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 2: they would allow the Trump administration to end the protections

1659
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,080
Speaker 2: pending appeal of the case, potentially allowing the administration to

1660
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:13,240
Speaker 2: move ahead with deportations. The Justice also appear to suggest

1661
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 2: that some of the Venezuelans who had been able to

1662
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 2: receive documentation of their legal status before the Trump administration

1663
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:22,479
Speaker 2: terminated the program could sue to challenge their deportations. In

1664
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 2: a separate case, the Justices on Friday criticized the Trump

1665
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 2: administration for seeking to provide only a day's warning to

1666
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 2: a different group of Venezuelan immigrants in Texas that had

1667
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:33,920
Speaker 2: been trying to deport under the Expansive Powers of the

1668
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:39,320
Speaker 2: Alien Enemies Act. So with regards to this particular court ruling,

1669
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 2: they effectively sent it back to the lower courts, but

1670
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 2: they lifted the nationwide injunction that would have protected these

1671
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty thousand Venezuelan immigrants who had been

1672
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 2: granted temporary protected status under the Biden administration. They've lifted

1673
01:24:55,040 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 2: that nationwide injunction, so they are now subject to deportation.

1674
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:01,599
Speaker 2: Now they can go to the court and seek recourse there,

1675
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,240
Speaker 2: and there are already cases that are making their way

1676
01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:07,759
Speaker 2: through the courts. So this isn't fully resolved at this point,

1677
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 2: but a significant win for the Trump administration when you're

1678
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 2: talking about hundreds of thousands of people who now have

1679
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 2: been stripped of their legal status that had been granted

1680
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 2: by the prior administration and could be subject to deportation,

1681
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 2: So significant win there for them. That article can put

1682
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 2: the next piece up on the screen referenced another decision

1683
01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 2: that came on Friday, in which the Supreme Court ruled

1684
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 2: seven to two to further enjoin the government from summarily

1685
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,840
Speaker 2: deporting alleged gang members under the Alien Enemies Act. The

1686
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 2: government did not give enough notice, and the Fifth Circuit

1687
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 2: aired in refusing to provide relief. According to the justices,

1688
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:45,880
Speaker 2: so this is a seven to two decision. This has

1689
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:49,320
Speaker 2: to do, as noted, with the invocation of the Alien

1690
01:25:49,479 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 2: Enemies Act and what sort of process is due to

1691
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:57,800
Speaker 2: migrants who are the administration is attempting to deport under

1692
01:25:57,920 --> 01:26:01,599
Speaker 2: that act. So you'll re call that the Supreme Court

1693
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 2: ruled unanimously that they had to provide due process, and

1694
01:26:06,040 --> 01:26:09,800
Speaker 2: I believe the language of that original ruling was that

1695
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 2: they had to give them quote unquote reasonable notice. Well,

1696
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 2: the Trump administration interpreted that as twenty four hours. Twenty

1697
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,639
Speaker 2: four hours is reasonable notice in their opinion, in order

1698
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 2: to allow you to find a lawyer and gather your

1699
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 2: your arguments and file your habeast petition. The Supreme Court here,

1700
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 2: in assemned to two ruling, is saying no, No, that

1701
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 2: is not reasonable notice. That is not sufficient and is

1702
01:26:37,040 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 2: not consistent with the ruling that we had issued previously.

1703
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 2: Now I would say they should have anticipated that this administration,

1704
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:48,880
Speaker 2: given how bad faith they've been and how defiant they've

1705
01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:51,800
Speaker 2: been on any number of court orders, would seek to

1706
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:56,559
Speaker 2: interpret their ruling in the most narrow and most bad

1707
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 2: faith way imaginable, which is exactly what they did and

1708
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 2: have laid out from the start what exactly that due

1709
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,160
Speaker 2: process should look like and what sort of time frame

1710
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:08,720
Speaker 2: we're talking about. They didn't do that. But now we

1711
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 2: have additional ruling from the Supreme Court saying okay, twenty

1712
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 2: four hours, that ain't it. It's got to be longer

1713
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:18,280
Speaker 2: than twenty four hours. Has a significant setback from the

1714
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:20,680
Speaker 2: courts on that one. And I will tell you there

1715
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 2: were so many Republicans who were really going wild after

1716
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:30,200
Speaker 2: that decision and saying, effectively, it doesn't matter, we don't care,

1717
01:27:30,360 --> 01:27:34,759
Speaker 2: just ignore the courts, full on calling for outright defiance

1718
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 2: of what the Supreme Court had to say on this

1719
01:27:38,080 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 2: one because they didn't like the decision and the direction

1720
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 2: that it went in. A couple more just quick updates here.

1721
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 2: One is, let's put this up on the screen. Those

1722
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:51,880
Speaker 2: thousand dollars self deportation deals that the Trump administration has

1723
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 2: been offering the first flight of those has left. So

1724
01:27:56,520 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 2: immigrants who decided to avail themselves of this deal, they

1725
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:03,920
Speaker 2: have now been on a charter flight and dozens of

1726
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 2: them took off from Houston early Monday. Those are some

1727
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,400
Speaker 2: of the incentives that have been offered for people to

1728
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 2: quote unquote self deport I think this is actually an

1729
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:17,200
Speaker 2: important part of the Trump administration policy because they have

1730
01:28:17,320 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 2: been unable to effectuate their actual mass deportation on the

1731
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 2: level and scale that they would want to see and

1732
01:28:24,800 --> 01:28:27,599
Speaker 2: that their boss hardcore supporters would want to see. Instead,

1733
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:33,919
Speaker 2: they've been doing these, you know, outrageous spectacle spectacles of cruelty,

1734
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:37,439
Speaker 2: like the deportation of people to this foreign gulag and

1735
01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,920
Speaker 2: El Salvador with no due process as one example, or

1736
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 2: get Mo or using the military flights potentially exploring a

1737
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:47,360
Speaker 2: similar situation with Libya. So this is an important part

1738
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 2: of their program to try to actually achieve the mass

1739
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,280
Speaker 2: deportations of their dreams and the other part of it,

1740
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 2: but this last piece up on the screen. The Republican

1741
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 2: budget would make ICE the highest funded federal law enforcement

1742
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,799
Speaker 2: component in the history of the US, bigger than the FBI,

1743
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:08,120
Speaker 2: with a larger budget for detention than the entire Federal

1744
01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:11,960
Speaker 2: Bureau of Prisons. So currently they may not have the

1745
01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:14,720
Speaker 2: resources to do their full mass deportation, but they are

1746
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 2: working on changing that rapidly. Very excited to be joined

1747
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 2: this morning by John Lyle. He is a history professor

1748
01:29:24,120 --> 01:29:26,800
Speaker 2: at the University of Texas, but more importantly for our

1749
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:29,080
Speaker 2: purposes this morning, he is the author of a brand

1750
01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:31,760
Speaker 2: new book on the history of mk ultra. Was going

1751
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,360
Speaker 2: to put that up on the screen book jacket Project

1752
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 2: mind Control, Sydney got leave the CIA and the Tragedy

1753
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:40,559
Speaker 2: of mk Ultra and John joins us.

1754
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:42,479
Speaker 10: Now, great to have you, welcome, Thank you, thanks for

1755
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:44,200
Speaker 10: having me. I'm excited to talk about this. It's a

1756
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:45,720
Speaker 10: wild story to say the least.

1757
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, so give us like, let's start from

1758
01:29:48,280 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 2: the beginning. What is the context, the geopolitical context in

1759
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 2: which mk ultra is launching, and just give people a

1760
01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:57,679
Speaker 2: little reminder of what this was all about.

1761
01:29:58,439 --> 01:30:01,799
Speaker 10: Yes, So mk Ultra was this CIA's project to determine

1762
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,639
Speaker 10: whether mind control is possible. Is it possible to give

1763
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:07,200
Speaker 10: someone a drug that might be used as a truth

1764
01:30:07,280 --> 01:30:09,679
Speaker 10: serum and an interrogation to get them to tell the truth.

1765
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:12,880
Speaker 10: Is it possible to control someone's behaviors and beliefs. That

1766
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:14,960
Speaker 10: was the kind of the goal of mk Ultra. And

1767
01:30:15,040 --> 01:30:18,200
Speaker 10: the reason this started in nineteen fifty three is because

1768
01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:20,599
Speaker 10: right at the end of World War II, especially after

1769
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:24,599
Speaker 10: the development of the atomic bomb, proximity fuses, radar science

1770
01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 10: was starting to be seen as integral, integral to national security.

1771
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 10: And during the Korean War there were several American POWs

1772
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 10: who were captured and they confess to things that they

1773
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:39,400
Speaker 10: didn't do. They confessed to conducting biological warfare against Korea,

1774
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:43,320
Speaker 10: dropping anthrax and typhus and cholera and bubonic plague. And

1775
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:46,240
Speaker 10: the question within the CIA was why are they confessing

1776
01:30:46,320 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 10: to these false charges against them? And one concern was

1777
01:30:49,800 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 10: that perhaps the Communists have developed some method of mind control,

1778
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 10: whether it be hypnosis or drugs, and so if that

1779
01:30:55,560 --> 01:30:58,080
Speaker 10: were possible, the CIA wanted to determine how can we

1780
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 10: defend against that, or how can we offensively use something

1781
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:04,639
Speaker 10: like that. The mind control might be the next arms race,

1782
01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:06,880
Speaker 10: and we want to stay ahead of the Communists. Therefore,

1783
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:09,439
Speaker 10: we're going to start this program mk Ultra to see

1784
01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 10: what we can do.

1785
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it seems like they really took this as

1786
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 2: like an existential threat. You know, it kind of reminds

1787
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 2: me actually a little bit of the way that our

1788
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 2: government talks about AI now, where there's this sort of

1789
01:31:19,280 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 2: like AI development race in the sense that whichever country

1790
01:31:22,080 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 2: between US and China wins the AI race is going

1791
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:27,479
Speaker 2: to own the future and own the future of warfare

1792
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,880
Speaker 2: as well. So talk a little bit about how that

1793
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:35,960
Speaker 2: sort of existential mindset informed the extreme and wildly unethical

1794
01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:40,280
Speaker 2: nature of the experiments, the human experiments that they conducted.

1795
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 10: Here pretty quickly within mk ULTRA, one of the main

1796
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 10: drugs that they started using was LSD. It had been

1797
01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 10: discovered in nineteen thirty eight, but then really realized what

1798
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:50,960
Speaker 10: it was in nineteen forty three. So it was a

1799
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,920
Speaker 10: pretty new drug and extremely potent. And the existential part

1800
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 10: especially came with LSD because it's such a powerful hallucinogen

1801
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,760
Speaker 10: and so such a finite dose can have such a

1802
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 10: profound effect. They'll worry was that if some foreign power

1803
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 10: wanted to dose a city's water supply, let's say, with LSD,

1804
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:10,479
Speaker 10: maybe they wouldn't need that much of it. And so

1805
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,880
Speaker 10: that was the concern about the existential threat and why

1806
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:16,720
Speaker 10: mk Ultra went to the links it did in many

1807
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 10: cases to determine whether that would work. Some of the

1808
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:22,719
Speaker 10: things that mk Eltra was involved in was dosing unwitting

1809
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 10: people with LSD to see how they would react. Again,

1810
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:27,320
Speaker 10: because if the Soviets, let's say, were to dose a

1811
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:29,519
Speaker 10: city with LSD, we want to know how to defend

1812
01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 10: against that and how to deal with people who have

1813
01:32:32,280 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 10: been surreptitiously dosed with this drug. So Mkultra personnel like

1814
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:39,000
Speaker 10: Sidney Gottlieb, the head of the program, he would dose

1815
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,919
Speaker 10: unwitting people with LSD to monitor their behaviors to determine

1816
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 10: what kind of effects this would have on them. This,

1817
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:49,360
Speaker 10: in several cases led to tragic consequences. The most famous

1818
01:32:49,439 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 10: person whom this happened to was Frank Olsen, who was

1819
01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:55,000
Speaker 10: dosed with LSD at a retreat with Sydney Gottlieb, and

1820
01:32:55,160 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 10: he ended up kind of having a psychotic break. His

1821
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:01,080
Speaker 10: wife didn't understand what his mind state was after that,

1822
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 10: and a few days later he jumps out of a

1823
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 10: hotel window and dies.

1824
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:07,360
Speaker 2: So are you of the opinion that he did jump

1825
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 2: out of that window, because there is some dispute, including

1826
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:13,160
Speaker 2: from the family who had his body exhumed and further

1827
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 2: analysis indicated he may have had blunt force trauma before

1828
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:19,640
Speaker 2: he ended up out of the window. And you know,

1829
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:22,759
Speaker 2: at the time, he wasn't just some random, unwitting subject.

1830
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 2: He was one of them and knew a lot of

1831
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:27,640
Speaker 2: you know, the secrets of what they were doing, all

1832
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 2: these you know, sensitive national security information. So I know

1833
01:33:30,760 --> 01:33:33,920
Speaker 2: there's long been skepticism about the you know, the events

1834
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:34,760
Speaker 2: surrounding his death.

1835
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:36,240
Speaker 4: Yes, there has been.

1836
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,040
Speaker 10: In fact, Frank Olsen's own son, Eric Olsen, is one

1837
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:41,000
Speaker 10: of the main proponents of the idea that his father

1838
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:45,240
Speaker 10: was murdered by the CIA potentially because Frank Olsen was

1839
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:48,400
Speaker 10: involved in what was called the airborne distribution of pathogens.

1840
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 10: How is it possible to create weapons that we can use,

1841
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 10: you know, anthrax or germ bombs, and how is that

1842
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:56,280
Speaker 10: going to spread in the air. That's what Frank Olsen

1843
01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:59,519
Speaker 10: was working on. And so Eric Olson and some others

1844
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 10: who were up the opinion that he was murdered think

1845
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 10: that maybe Frank Olsen started to have moral compunctions about

1846
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:06,720
Speaker 10: what he was doing and maybe he was going to

1847
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 10: expose it, and so the CIA had to get him

1848
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 10: out of the way, and so they threw him out

1849
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 10: of this hotel window. I don't think that's the case.

1850
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 10: In fact, you mentioned that they had his body exhumed

1851
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 10: and analyzed to determine whether there was this blunt force trauma.

1852
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:22,800
Speaker 10: David Stars led that process, and he did determine that

1853
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:24,759
Speaker 10: he thought there might have been some blunt force trauma

1854
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,640
Speaker 10: before Frank Olson went out the window. However, there were

1855
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:31,600
Speaker 10: several people on Stars's team who negated that conclusion and

1856
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 10: said that Stars was someone who kind of sought the

1857
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:36,479
Speaker 10: spotlight and made things a little bit more sensational than

1858
01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:38,519
Speaker 10: we would have, and so we don't think that's the case.

1859
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:40,560
Speaker 10: In fact, they said they thought it was consistent with

1860
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 10: his head hitting the window on the way out. So

1861
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:45,519
Speaker 10: I'm pretty skeptical of the idea that Frank Olson was murdered.

1862
01:34:45,720 --> 01:34:48,040
Speaker 10: There are several other people who were victims of MK

1863
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:50,880
Speaker 10: ultra who had very similar symptoms to him. They've been

1864
01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:54,200
Speaker 10: dosed unwittingly with LSD and they ended up in psychiatric

1865
01:34:54,280 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 10: institutions for the rest of their life. So I think

1866
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 10: it's more likely that he had that same kind of

1867
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:01,479
Speaker 10: psychotic break that several other people who are victims of

1868
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 10: this did as well.

1869
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:06,040
Speaker 2: So what was your motivation to write the book. Now,

1870
01:35:06,120 --> 01:35:09,880
Speaker 2: I know there were newly discovered documents depositions that really

1871
01:35:09,920 --> 01:35:11,719
Speaker 2: got to the heart of some of the inner thinkings

1872
01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:13,880
Speaker 2: of people like Sidney GOTTLIEB. So talk about a little

1873
01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:15,600
Speaker 2: bit of what's new on what you were able to

1874
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:16,200
Speaker 2: uncover here.

1875
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, thank you, because that's the really exciting part of

1876
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,000
Speaker 10: this book is the fact that the basis for it

1877
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:24,120
Speaker 10: is these depositions I found as part of a lawsuit

1878
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:26,519
Speaker 10: in the nineteen eighties, there were several victims of mk

1879
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:29,679
Speaker 10: ultra who sued the CIA. That lawsuit was eventually settled

1880
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:31,320
Speaker 10: out of court, but as part of the lawsuit, the

1881
01:35:31,400 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 10: lawyers representing the plaintiffs, Joseph Row James Turner, famous civil

1882
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:38,559
Speaker 10: rights attorneys, they took the depositions of dozens of people

1883
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:41,320
Speaker 10: who were involved in this case, dozens of the perpetrators

1884
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,120
Speaker 10: like Sidney gottlie Of, Robert Lashbrook, Richard Helms, the head

1885
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 10: of the CIA, eventually and they took several depositions of

1886
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 10: the victims of mk ultra. Since this lawsuit was settled

1887
01:35:50,360 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 10: out of court, the depositions just kind of stayed in

1888
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 10: the papers of Joseph Row until he passed away, and

1889
01:35:55,240 --> 01:35:57,640
Speaker 10: those were donated to the Library of Congress, and I

1890
01:35:57,840 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 10: was rooting around in there and I happened to find

1891
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 10: these depositions, thousands of pages of verbatim transcript of him

1892
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,120
Speaker 10: asking the perpetrators and victims of MK Ultra what they did,

1893
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 10: what they went through. So it's so exciting for a

1894
01:36:10,320 --> 01:36:13,160
Speaker 10: historian because I can actually use dialogue now because I

1895
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 10: have dialogue between these attorneys and these depponents. And usually

1896
01:36:18,200 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 10: in fiction you get to invent dialogue. In history, you

1897
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:23,040
Speaker 10: don't invent dialogue, and so you can't really have that

1898
01:36:23,120 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 10: exciting part of getting into the heads of the characters

1899
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 10: as well. But now with these depositions, that's exactly what

1900
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:29,639
Speaker 10: I have. So that was one of the main catalysts

1901
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:31,720
Speaker 10: for wanting to write this book. I had so many

1902
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,640
Speaker 10: great verbatim transcripts, thousands of pages. In fact, Sidney Gottlieb's

1903
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,639
Speaker 10: transcripts of his depositions run to over eight hundred pages alone,

1904
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:41,960
Speaker 10: So I have eight hundred pages of him talking about

1905
01:36:42,000 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 10: exactly what he did.

1906
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:47,400
Speaker 2: What do you think is the cultural legacy of MK Ultra?

1907
01:36:47,720 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 2: And I mean, I just was thinking about I know

1908
01:36:50,040 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 2: this is something you've thought about as well. There's a

1909
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 2: lot of wild conspiracy theories out there at this particulars.

1910
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:58,280
Speaker 2: I think this happens anytime there's sort of a breakdown

1911
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 2: and institutional trust. So when you look back at our

1912
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:03,280
Speaker 2: own history and you look at the government doing things

1913
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 2: like this, it's like, oh, well, I mean, you can't

1914
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 2: put anything past them. They'll do wild, you know, mind

1915
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:13,720
Speaker 2: control experiments to try to create assassin animals, and you know,

1916
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 2: and try to mind control random unwitting subjects. You know,

1917
01:37:19,040 --> 01:37:22,720
Speaker 2: prostitutes dosing their clients and even some of their own,

1918
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, specialists getting unwittingly dosed, et cetera. So it's

1919
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:28,960
Speaker 2: hard to put anything past them when you have such

1920
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 2: an incredibly wild and proven conspiracy that is lurking in

1921
01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:34,759
Speaker 2: the background.

1922
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:37,599
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's such a good point

1923
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:40,439
Speaker 10: because mk Ultra really opens the door for a lot

1924
01:37:40,479 --> 01:37:42,920
Speaker 10: of conspiracy theorists to latch onto it for a few

1925
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 10: reasons and to say, oh, well, if the CIA was

1926
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:49,919
Speaker 10: doing something so crazy in the past and so patently unethical.

1927
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:52,920
Speaker 10: In fact, the CIA's own Inspector General in nineteen sixty

1928
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:55,840
Speaker 10: three said that this was illegal and unethical. So that's

1929
01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:58,120
Speaker 10: coming from the CIA itself. So the fact that the

1930
01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:01,360
Speaker 10: CIA did something like that, it leads the conspiracy theorists

1931
01:38:01,400 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 10: to say, if they did that, what else must they

1932
01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:05,320
Speaker 10: be doing today? And there are a few reasons why

1933
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:08,320
Speaker 10: m k Ultra in particular is suited towards this kind

1934
01:38:08,320 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 10: of conspiratorial thinking. One reason, like you just mentioned, is

1935
01:38:11,200 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 10: because it is just so absurd that it opens the

1936
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 10: door for any possibilities. The other is because in nineteen

1937
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 10: seventy three, Sidney Gottlieb, the head of this program, he

1938
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 10: retired from the CIA, as well as Richard Helms, the

1939
01:38:22,439 --> 01:38:25,960
Speaker 10: Director of Central Intelligence, and they decided when they retired

1940
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 10: to destroy the mk ultra files, at least most of them.

1941
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 10: They didn't get all of them. There were thousands of

1942
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:33,479
Speaker 10: pages that still survived. But the act of that destruction,

1943
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:36,720
Speaker 10: the fact that they incinerated these files, really opened a

1944
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:39,800
Speaker 10: Pandora's box because now anyone can say, well, we can't

1945
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:44,280
Speaker 10: know exactly what mk ultra was in total, because we

1946
01:38:44,360 --> 01:38:47,200
Speaker 10: don't have those files. Therefore, maybe they were doing this,

1947
01:38:47,400 --> 01:38:49,080
Speaker 10: or maybe they were doing that. The fact that we

1948
01:38:49,120 --> 01:38:51,840
Speaker 10: don't have those files really opens the Pandora box for

1949
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 10: anyone filling in the record with their wildest imagination, and

1950
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,639
Speaker 10: that has led a lot of conspiracy theorists to argue that, well,

1951
01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:00,920
Speaker 10: maybe mk Ultra was involved in traffic king children, or

1952
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:04,600
Speaker 10: maybe it was controlling celebrities like Britney Spears. Now that

1953
01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:07,639
Speaker 10: the Pandora's box is open, because those files are destroyed,

1954
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 10: anyone can say anything about the program. However, I don't

1955
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 10: think that's a great mode of argument because it's kind

1956
01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:17,040
Speaker 10: of ironic. But we almost know more about mk Ultra

1957
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:20,360
Speaker 10: than almost any other secret project. It seems counterintuitive because

1958
01:39:20,360 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 10: a lot of these files were destroyed, but we have

1959
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 10: so many files and sources on mk ULTRA. We have

1960
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:29,519
Speaker 10: thousands that actually survived. We have the memoirs and interviews

1961
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:31,679
Speaker 10: of people who were involved in this. We have thousands

1962
01:39:31,720 --> 01:39:34,440
Speaker 10: of pages of depositions that I found. We have institutional

1963
01:39:34,479 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 10: records that have been released since, we have government reports.

1964
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 10: We have the Rockefeller Commission, Church Committee, Pike Committees, these

1965
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,040
Speaker 10: congressional and executive committees that were set up in nineteen

1966
01:39:43,040 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 10: seventy four and five to investigate these past abuses. So

1967
01:39:46,120 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 10: we have so much material about mk ULTRA. I actually

1968
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 10: think that we can know a good deal of what

1969
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:52,720
Speaker 10: it was, and even better, we can know so much

1970
01:39:52,760 --> 01:39:54,760
Speaker 10: about it that we can know what it wasn't, and

1971
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,439
Speaker 10: it wasn't something that trafficked and child sex slaves or

1972
01:39:57,479 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 10: whatever the conspiracy theorists are saying.

1973
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:01,400
Speaker 2: And tell people where they can find the book.

1974
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 10: I think you can find it in bookstores wherever you know,

1975
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 10: hopefully at any good bookstore it'll be there. You can

1976
01:40:08,479 --> 01:40:11,160
Speaker 10: find it online, and I appreciate you having me on.

1977
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:13,080
Speaker 2: Thanks, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for taking

1978
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 2: the time to join us. All right, guys that we'll

1979
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 2: do it for me here today. Thanks again to day

1980
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:20,080
Speaker 2: Smith for hanging out with me today. Enjoyed that and

1981
01:40:20,240 --> 01:40:22,920
Speaker 2: hearing his thoughts on all the things. Emily and Ryan

1982
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 2: will be in for the non counterpoints. Counterpoints tomorrow and

1983
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:28,680
Speaker 2: I'll be back with Ryan on Thursday. Until then, have

1984
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 2: a great day.