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Speaker 1: And we're getting news reports that Hamas leader Yaya Sinwar

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Speaker 1: may have been killed in an IDEA operation in northern Gaza. Today,

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Speaker 1: a lot is still unclear, but to unpack what happened,

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Speaker 1: what we know about what happened so far, and what

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Speaker 1: this could mean and who ya Ya Sinwar? Was joined

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Speaker 1: here by my drop site colleague Jeremy Scahill. I'm Ryan Grimm. Jeremy,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us on short notice.

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Speaker 2: Good to be with you, Ryan.

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Speaker 1: And so it's eleven thirty Eastern time right now. You may,

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Speaker 1: as you're watching this, know a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: this than we do at the moment, but we'll try

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Speaker 1: to give you the backstory and what this means. So, Jeremy,

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Speaker 1: I guess, first of all, who is Yaya sin War?

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Speaker 1: And while you're answering, I'll try to put up one

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Speaker 1: of the photos that is a suggestive of the fact

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Speaker 1: that they did indeed kill ya Sinowar.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, first of all, the caveat here is

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Speaker 2: that we're what we know about this right now is

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Speaker 2: entirely coming from the Israeli military and Israeli intelligence. There

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Speaker 2: have been previous reports indicating that Sinwar was killed or

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Speaker 2: may have been killed. The same scenario played out with

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Speaker 2: other senior figures within Hamas, including Mohammed Daif. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: with the sort of all encompassing caveat that it is,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's dependent on you know, much clearer evidence.

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Speaker 2: We can discuss what we know at this point, and

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Speaker 2: that is that on Wednesday night, apparently there was a

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Speaker 2: routine patrol in the south of Gaza and there was

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Speaker 2: some sort of This is all according to the Israelis.

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Speaker 2: We have to emphasize Hamas as of this moment, has

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Speaker 2: not put out any statement, but there was some sort

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Speaker 2: of a routine patrol happening with Israeli occupation forces in

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Speaker 2: southern Gaza. There's indications that it was either in.

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Speaker 1: Or I or Rafa I thought northern Gaza. Okay, good, okay, interesting, go.

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Speaker 2: Ahead, and there was, according to the Israelis, some kind

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Speaker 2: of a firefight. Initial report was that there was an

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Speaker 2: RPG fired by the Israeli forces at a building where

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Speaker 2: there were resistant Palestinian resistance fighters. More recently they've indicated

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Speaker 2: that it was tank fire that hit the building, and

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Speaker 2: some of the images that we've seen look like a

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Speaker 2: heavier ammunition was used because it collapsed part of the

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Speaker 2: concrete structure onto the individual that they're identifying as Yahya Sinhwar.

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Speaker 2: And then these soldiers when they went inside, and you

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Speaker 2: know what they say is that they're always looking for

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Speaker 2: the Israeli captives that are being held in Gaza. They

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Speaker 2: came across the bodies of what we understand now three

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Speaker 2: individuals who we believe are Palestinian resistance fighters, and the

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Speaker 2: soldiers saw one of them and believed that it was

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Speaker 2: Yahya Sinwar. He's a very distinct looking guy. The last

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Speaker 2: image that Israel claimed to that the world has seen

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Speaker 2: of Sinwar, it was a grainy image that the Israelis released.

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Speaker 2: They said it was captured from a security camera in

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Speaker 2: one of the tunnels in southern Gaza. Was a kind

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Speaker 2: of sigh in rear view of a man walking down

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Speaker 2: a tunnel with other individuals. But since then we haven't

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Speaker 2: seen anything, and Sinhwar has only put out a few statements.

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Speaker 2: You did release a couple of letters to foreign dignitaries

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Speaker 2: after Ismailhinia, the political leader of Hamas, was assassinated in Tehran,

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Speaker 2: and Sinhwar was then made the head of both the

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Speaker 2: military operations on the ground inside of Gaza, the political

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Speaker 2: leader in Gaza and the head of its political bureau,

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Speaker 2: which is largely based outside of Gaza. You know, the

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Speaker 2: story of Yaha Sinhwar in some ways is the story

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Speaker 2: of what happened to the Palestinians of Gaza. He was

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Speaker 2: born in a refugee camp in Khanyunis in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: two and he himself was part of the original formation

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Speaker 2: of Hamas. Soon after Hamas was formed, Yaha Sinhwar was

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Speaker 2: arrested by Israeli forces and he was accused of of

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Speaker 2: being a hit man, essentially for this new group that

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Speaker 2: was emerging that was responsible for taking out collaborators who

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Speaker 2: were working with the Israelis. They also tried to pin

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Speaker 2: on him allegations that he was involved with ambushing or

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Speaker 2: killing Israeli soldiers. But he ends up spending twenty two

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Speaker 2: years in an Israeli prison, and in fact, Sinhwar was

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Speaker 2: released in twenty eleven in a exchange deal for the

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Speaker 2: Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and you had more than a

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Speaker 2: thousand Palestinian prisoners released during that deal, and one of

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Speaker 2: the chief negotiators was Yaja Sinhwaj's brother, Mohammed Sinhwar, who

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Speaker 2: also is a significant figure in the command structure of

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Speaker 2: Hamas and certainly in its ground operations over the past year.

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Speaker 2: So Sinhwar emerges from that prison and becomes quite quickly

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Speaker 2: a revered political leader of Hamas and ultimately then takes

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Speaker 2: control of the organization. While Sinwar was in prison, Ryan

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Speaker 2: he spent his time studying, and he himself has talked

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Speaker 2: about this and written about this. He spent his time

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Speaker 2: studying the Israeli state. He read the memoirs of shin Bet,

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Speaker 2: former shin Bet heads, other Israeli intelligence officials. In fact,

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Speaker 2: by hand he translated from Hebrew into Arabic these memoirs

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Speaker 2: and would disseminate them to other political prisoners, Palestinian political prisoners,

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Speaker 2: you know, arguing that you have to study the enemy

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Speaker 2: in order to to defeat the enemy.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you know.

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Speaker 2: But the thing I want to emphasize is if Yaija

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Speaker 2: Sinwar died. A couple of things here. First of all,

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Speaker 2: the Israelis have often portrayed him, and their political cartoons

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Speaker 2: show this as kind of a rat hiding in tunnels,

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Speaker 2: using Israeli captives as human shields, and it appears from

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Speaker 2: even Israel's own narrative about this alleged killing of Sinwar

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Speaker 2: that he died in combat wearing combat gear. They said

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Speaker 2: there was no sign of Israeli captives around fund him,

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Speaker 2: and already on social media in the Arabic language, you

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Speaker 2: see a lot of people saying that this this is

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Speaker 2: a holy shaheed, that this is a martyr who died

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Speaker 2: fighting for the Palestinian cause of liberation.

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Speaker 1: And so what would it mean for this, for this

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Speaker 1: conflict that's ongoing if he was killed.

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Speaker 2: You know, remember some months ago there were there was

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Speaker 2: reporting and it was it was based on leaks coming

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Speaker 2: out of the Biden administration. Uh that you know that

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Speaker 2: the Biden administration was dangling what they claimed was valuable

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Speaker 2: intelligence to help the Israelis locate Yahya Sinhwar. Now, the

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Speaker 2: US has been providing Israel intelligence on high value so

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Speaker 2: called high value targets throughout the duration of the past year.

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Speaker 2: But I think there that what it indicated was not

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Speaker 2: so much that that the US necessarily knew where Sinowar

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Speaker 2: was and was withholding that information from Israel, but rather

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Speaker 2: that I think the Biden administration has felt like if

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Speaker 2: Yahya sin War was killed, it would allow them to

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Speaker 2: argue with net Yahoo, you know, the time is up

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, declare victory and let's wrap this

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Speaker 2: thing up. Now. We have to emphasize that Biden has

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Speaker 2: not wrapped this thing up throughout the entire duration. I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty clear he could have ended this a

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Speaker 2: long time ago with a phone call, as he did

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one. They certainly could have said no

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Speaker 2: more weapons for you, and Israel would have been in very,

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Speaker 2: very deep trouble, especially as it tried to launch this

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Speaker 2: multi front war, potentially also with Iran. But I think

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Speaker 2: that a mistake that that you know, Americans, that America

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Speaker 2: made during the so called War on Terror, and that

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Speaker 2: sometimes the you know, the Israeli press and government encourages

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Speaker 2: this narrative is that by killing leaders, whether it's Hassan

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Speaker 2: Nasralla of Hesbalah in Lebanon or Ismaelhania, the Hama's political leader,

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Speaker 2: or in this case, Yakja Sinwar, that by killing the leaders,

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Speaker 2: you somehow are going to destroy the resistance. And the

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Speaker 2: fact is that and history backs this up completely, that

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Speaker 2: every time the Israelis believe that they have achieved some

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Speaker 2: victory by assassinating a Palestinian leader, more rise up to

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Speaker 2: take their place. What I think it's indicative of, though, Ryan,

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Speaker 2: is that Netnyahu from the beginning never actually wanted a

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Speaker 2: deal here. He sabotaged every possibility of a ceasefire. Excuse

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Speaker 2: me of a prisoner exchange. You have ten thousand Palestinians

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Speaker 2: that are right now being held in Israeli custody. You

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Speaker 2: have high value political prisoners being held in Israeli custody.

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Speaker 2: If Netanyahu wanted to make a deal to release the

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Speaker 2: Israeli captives from Gaza, they would have had to give

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Speaker 2: over not just Palestinian children which they're holding and who

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Speaker 2: they subject to military tribunals, or people that had posted

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Speaker 2: WhatsApp or Facebook messages that the Israeli state has outlawed,

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Speaker 2: but there would have been political figures chief among them.

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Speaker 2: And number one on the list of Hamas, even though

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Speaker 2: he's not a HAMAS member, was marwe On Barguti, who

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Speaker 2: actually emerged as a leader of the Second Palestinian in Tafada,

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Speaker 2: was part of FATA and then became a paramilitary leader,

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Speaker 2: and he's been decades in Israeli prison. Some compare him

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Speaker 2: or say that he's a kin in ways to a

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Speaker 2: Palestinian Nelson Mandela one of the few figures that many

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Speaker 2: people believe would have the ability to unite both Gaza

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Speaker 2: and the West Bank and all of the factions into

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Speaker 2: a unified Palestinian entity that would make a very clear

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Speaker 2: demand for a Palestinian state to be recognized. It seems

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Speaker 2: as though what Netanyahu decided was I'm going to burn

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Speaker 2: Gaza to the ground. I'm going to kill as many

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Speaker 2: Palestinians as possible. I'm going to destroy the entire infrastructure

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Speaker 2: of Gaza, and if it means that, you know, one

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Speaker 2: hundred plus Israeli captives get killed in the process, it

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Speaker 2: was a price worth paying. That's what I think really

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Speaker 2: needs to be emphasized here. This shows that Netanya who

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Speaker 2: and the Israeli state, the security establishment embraced a scorched

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Speaker 2: earth policy that was aimed at obliterating Gaza as a

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Speaker 2: Palestinian territory, and many of the residents of Gaza with it.

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Speaker 2: So they can say, oh, this is a great victory,

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Speaker 2: and the watch for the Biden administration also to make

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Speaker 2: an argument, this means that you've won the war seventy

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Speaker 2: six years of oppression of apartheid, of colonialism, of targeted killing,

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Speaker 2: of mass killing, of starvation, of blockades, has shown that

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Speaker 2: you cannot kill the Palestinian resistance by killing the people

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Speaker 2: who happened to be the leaders at any given time

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Speaker 2: in history.

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Speaker 1: I certainly that theory will be tested at this point

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Speaker 1: because it seems like net Yahoo has no intention of

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Speaker 1: letting up. This comes at the same time that Biden,

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Speaker 1: last question for you here, has issued this very late

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Speaker 1: ultimatum that puts a thirty day al time, made them

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Speaker 1: that AID must get into Gaza, that puts it past

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Speaker 1: the election. Already, I'm getting reports from AID workers saying

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Speaker 1: that the AID trucks that they're claiming are getting in

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Speaker 1: aren't actually getting in, and in fact, they're pulling out

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Speaker 1: vetted drivers from the trucks and beating and arresting the drivers,

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Speaker 1: doing everything they can to kind of make it look

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Speaker 1: publicly like they're letting AID in while actually thwarting it

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Speaker 1: on the ground. So is this all of this just

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Speaker 1: on hold until the election? You know?

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Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear that the Biden administration doesn't

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Speaker 2: have any intention of actually cutting off weapons to Israel.

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Speaker 2: The farthest that they're willing to go is to take

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Speaker 2: you know, in a symbolic way, the most contentious weapon

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Speaker 2: in the eyes of the US, these two thousand pound

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Speaker 2: bombs that caused horrifying civilian deaths, and to kind of

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Speaker 2: temporarily pause them. Let's remember that just in recent days,

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Speaker 2: the White House authorized the deployment of the THAD missile

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Speaker 2: system to Israel, supposedly to defend against potential Iranian counter strikes.

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Speaker 2: One hundred US military personnel went with it. The weapons

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Speaker 2: flow is continuing. Yes, there's probably a degree to which

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Speaker 2: this has to do with the election. And you know,

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris has given given many opportunities to indicate that

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Speaker 2: she has any difference of perspective than Biden on this.

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Speaker 2: She's not only declined to do that, she's doubled down

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Speaker 2: on saying that she's been in the room and she

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Speaker 2: supports the policy entirely. I think there are probably many

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Speaker 2: people in the Biden administration that, for a variety of reasons,

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Speaker 2: are really fed up with this, and it's totally toxic

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Speaker 2: to the election campaign of Kamala Harris. But I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: look for anything significant to happen out of this. I

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Speaker 2: do think that Biden personally is going to try to

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Speaker 2: use if Sinwar is confirmed to be dead, is to

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Speaker 2: try to use this to make an argument that now

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Speaker 2: is the time for a deal. From Netanyahu's perspective, I

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Speaker 2: think he says, we don't even need to make a deal.

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Speaker 2: We can just keep killing through this. And what I

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Speaker 2: think they're going to hope for is let's try to

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Speaker 2: recover as many living hostages as possible. He's gambled with

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Speaker 2: the lives of these Israelis for an entire year. Israeli

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Speaker 2: forces have killed numerous hostages on their own. This all

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Speaker 2: could have been done a long long time ago, at

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Speaker 2: least since July second. This could have been ended in

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Speaker 2: a very clear way when Hamas told international mediators that

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Speaker 2: had accepted the terms of the Biden plan. So I

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Speaker 2: don't think you can you can put any hope that

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Speaker 2: the Biden administration is going to back up any of

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Speaker 2: its expressed frustration leaks with real policy, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Jeremy Scalhell my co founder over at drop site News.

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Speaker 1: You can find or work at drop sitews dot com.

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Speaker 1: I'll also put a link down in the description below

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Speaker 1: to a twenty percent off discount that we're given for

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Speaker 1: subscription to Breaking Points viewers to check that out, So Jeremy, but.

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Speaker 2: Ryan one plug, I think people I want to just

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Speaker 2: tell people make sure to look at the recent reporting

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Speaker 2: from Abu Baker Ahbed who is a great young reporter

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Speaker 2: and Dare Albala, and he just did a report on

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Speaker 2: the young man. Everyone now has seen the images a Shaban,

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Speaker 2: the young man who was burned alive in the attack

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Speaker 2: on al Axa Hospital. But it's a very deep profile

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Speaker 2: that in many ways speaks to the utter loss that

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Speaker 2: Israel has imposed on the people of Gaza in every

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Speaker 2: aspect of their lives. It tells the life and death

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Speaker 2: of this young man who was still attached to an

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Speaker 2: IV when Israel struck the courtyard near al Axa Hospital

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Speaker 2: and caused him and his mother, another family member and

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Speaker 2: others to catch on fire and at least four people

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Speaker 2: died in that fire.

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Speaker 1: It's a moving piece, quite moving piece, and I'll put

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Speaker 1: down in the comments below as well. And my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that Abu Baker, in the last week, while reporting

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Speaker 1: this piece himself, has only had something like three meals.

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Speaker 1: Like the desperation in northern Gaza is so difficult to conceptualize.

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 2: The Palestinian journalists who have been the eyes and ears

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Speaker 2: of the world for this deserve our defense and our

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Speaker 2: gratitude forever for being the actual writers of history and

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Speaker 2: real time, because without them, we would have known very

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Speaker 2: little about the extent to which the United States and

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Speaker 2: Israel waged this China Satle war.

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Speaker 1: Well, Jeremy, thank you for joining me here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Ray,