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Speaker 1: dot com to find your perfect match today. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Piketon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.

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Speaker 1: This is episode ten Wild Country. In this episode, We're

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Speaker 1: going to be answering a bunch of questions we've received

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Speaker 1: over social media. We are also going to be going

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Speaker 1: deeper into some subjects we've only touched on and talking

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Speaker 1: about some stories we haven't been able to tell. I'm

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Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker

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Speaker 1: and Jeff Sheene. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake,

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Speaker 1: and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's

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Speaker 1: mother Rita, Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica were

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Speaker 1: both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was

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Speaker 1: also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,

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Speaker 1: and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven.

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Speaker 1: Ali from Ormond Beach, Florida asked us about the drugs

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Speaker 1: and how we relate to the case and if there's

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Speaker 1: anything else in the piked In area that pertains to

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Speaker 1: drugs that we should know. So one of the big

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Speaker 1: theories behind the murders we explored was drugs and the

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Speaker 1: fact that the Rodents did have a pretty large marijuana

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Speaker 1: grow operation on their property. But it's not just specific

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Speaker 1: to the rodent or even specific to piked in the

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Speaker 1: immediate area is kind of a hotbed that's been affected

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Speaker 1: by drugs in myriad ways. For starters, there's not a

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Speaker 1: ton of jobs, and that has really taken a toll

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Speaker 1: on the town, and just generally speaking, Ohio and the

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Speaker 1: southern part of the state has been devastated by drug abuse,

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Speaker 1: mostly prescription painkillers and heroin. In Pike County, the drug

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Speaker 1: overdose mortality rate from twenty fourteen to twenty eighteen was

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Speaker 1: more than seventy one deaths per one hundred thousand population.

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Speaker 1: The rate for the rest of the country was twenty

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Speaker 1: seven deaths per one hundred thousand. That's nearly three times

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Speaker 1: the mortality rate of the rest of the country. A

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Speaker 1: lot of these drugs come in from Portsmouth. Portsmouth, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: is the neighboring town to Piketon, so about a fifteen

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Speaker 1: minute drive. I spoke to investigative reporter James Pilcher, who

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Speaker 1: didn't incredibly deep dive into Portsmouth into the larger picture

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Speaker 1: of what's happening in southeastern Ohio. Portsmith, which is in

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Speaker 1: the next county over on the river south of Pike

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Speaker 1: County and Piketon is known as ground zero for the

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Speaker 1: pillmill epidemic. That's where pill mills and the opioid epidemic

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Speaker 1: is known to have had a major hotspot way early

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Speaker 1: on in the late nineteen nineties early two thousands, when

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Speaker 1: the oxycon first st to market, And tell me what

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Speaker 1: a pill mill is. A pillmill is where a doctor

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Speaker 1: who for whatever reason isn't there to see clients, somebody

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Speaker 1: just shows up and he just hands the prescription for money,

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Speaker 1: and then they get the prescription there and then right

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Speaker 1: next door as a pharmacy, and then they just put

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Speaker 1: it in and then those people get the pills because

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Speaker 1: it's legal in that state. They might drive them home

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Speaker 1: to Florida and then sell them for ten times the

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Speaker 1: price or trade them or whatever. But it was unregulated

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Speaker 1: in Ohio at the time, and Kentucky was bad too.

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Speaker 1: Kentucky had the same issues. So right there enforcements right

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Speaker 1: there on the Ohio River bordering Kentucky, so you had

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Speaker 1: both sides of the river. So there were cars lined

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Speaker 1: up from Florida and West Virginia and Georgia up and

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Speaker 1: down all over town for a decade. And it's just

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Speaker 1: ravaged the city which had already been decimated by the

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Speaker 1: pullout of industrialization, and so all of that kind of

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Speaker 1: flooded in. You have all of these, you know, an

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Speaker 1: economically depressed area. All of a sudden, addiction becomes a

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Speaker 1: major major issue. People are driving from all over the

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Speaker 1: country because it's easy to get the pills there. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there's also the people who get into

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Speaker 1: kind of the illicit activities to make money. Right, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: absolutely a cottage industry of crime and drug associated crime

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Speaker 1: kind of sprung up, and you know, started to do

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Speaker 1: my own reporting on it. So one of our editors

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Speaker 1: worked as the managing editor of the Portsmouth Daily Times,

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Speaker 1: which is the daily newspaper there in the early twenty tens,

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Speaker 1: and so he was very familiar with the rumors that

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Speaker 1: had been circulating a round about Michael Moran. Moran had

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Speaker 1: already been a city councilman, but he wasn't on city

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Speaker 1: council anymore, but he was still well known within the

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Speaker 1: legal circles and chamber of commerce, and he did some

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Speaker 1: work pro bono work about legal defense. But he always

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Speaker 1: seemed to have a pretty girl in his arm. In

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Speaker 1: December of twenty eighteen, a now former reporter with that

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Speaker 1: newspaper put out on Facebook segments of a federal HALFI

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Speaker 1: Davis from the Drug Enforcement Administration, which basically laid there

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Speaker 1: and put out for public viewing. That's the federal law

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Speaker 1: enforcement was investigating the very same rumors that have been

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Speaker 1: following Moran around for years, that he was running girls

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Speaker 1: and running drugs, and that this was who he was.

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Speaker 1: It's important to note that Michael Moran has not been

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Speaker 1: arrested or charged with any crimes. Also that Moran has

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Speaker 1: categorically denied all of this. My editor at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I was working as an investigative reporter at the

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati Enquirer, said would James be interested in taking a

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Speaker 1: look at this? And I'll be honest, I thought I

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Speaker 1: didn't think it was real. At first. I thought there

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Speaker 1: was no way that this is as bad as they

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Speaker 1: say it is and whatever. So I took a drive

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Speaker 1: out there. A partner partnered me with a woman photographer

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Speaker 1: whom we went out there a couple of times and

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Speaker 1: they'll never forget it. We were doing some b rolls

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Speaker 1: shot shots in front of a pseudo abandoned shoe factory

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Speaker 1: with graffiti about hookers and things like that, and a

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Speaker 1: guy comes running up. He says, what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: And I told him and I said, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I've ever heard of Michael Moraney says, oh yeah, yah,

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Speaker 1: that guy runs women. So this was not a secret enforcemouth.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knew the rumors and had known somebody that knew

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Speaker 1: somebody that had worked for him. It was going on

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Speaker 1: that he was running women all over the country. He

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Speaker 1: was promising women drugs for sex. He had relationships with

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Speaker 1: judges and with members of law enforcement, all of it.

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Speaker 1: So you know, all of this is in the federal

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Speaker 1: document we're talking abo. It's a human trafficking, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: So you know, some people this is an interesting distinction.

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Speaker 1: Some people will say, oh, well, these women knew what

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Speaker 1: they were doing, they were just trying to make money. Well,

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Speaker 1: if you talk to the experts, it went one step

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Speaker 1: beyond that. It went into trafficking because Moran was holding

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Speaker 1: over them, ay the fact that they were drug addicts

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Speaker 1: and he would withhold their money or with hold their

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Speaker 1: wherewithal to get drugs, which under federal statute and Ohio statute,

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Speaker 1: is a form of trafficking b. He was attensively promising

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Speaker 1: more lenient sentences because he had friends in the legal system.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to point out here that we reached out

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Speaker 1: to Michael Moran as well as the prosecutors involved. Neither

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Speaker 1: side got back to us with comment. So I talked

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Speaker 1: to some folks, but getting those first initial people to talk,

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Speaker 1: that was their big fear, is they these women just

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Speaker 1: weren't afraid to go to jail. They were afraid for

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Speaker 1: their lives. And the reason they were afraid for their

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Speaker 1: lives is the name of one woman, and that's Meghan Lancaster.

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Speaker 1: Meghan was a known prostitute in the late two thousands

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Speaker 1: in Sciota County. If you talk to her sister in law,

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Speaker 1: and you talk to other people who knew her, she

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Speaker 1: worked for Mike Moran. Meghan got hooked on drugs early

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Speaker 1: on in high school, shortly out after our high school.

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Speaker 1: If you talk to her sister in law, who has

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Speaker 1: led the charge, she started partying later in high school

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Speaker 1: and then out of high school, and that led her into,

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Speaker 1: according to our sources, into the circle of Moran. So

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Speaker 1: Moran would hire her out for bachelor parties. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Katie Lancaster, her sister in law even tells the story

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Speaker 1: about her running into Meghan wearing Christmas lingerie in a

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Speaker 1: Walmart picking something up on her way to a Christmas

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Speaker 1: party where she was the entertainment for a bunch of

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Speaker 1: Moran's friends, and she mysteriously disappeared, so we can't even

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Speaker 1: say she was murdered. Her car was found the blood

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Speaker 1: on it, the door was left wide open, half parked

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Speaker 1: in a local fast food joint there in downtown Portsmouth,

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Speaker 1: and they have not found hide nor hair of her.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: places in Siotta County where you can hide a body.

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Speaker 1: It's full of hollers and dips and forests, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's wild country. It really is wild country. The glaciers

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Speaker 1: came through cut a bunch of stuff and it's it's beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but it's also a wild country. And a slew of

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Speaker 1: women went missing or got killed that were addicted prostitutes

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Speaker 1: um sex workers up in Ross County, in Chilcafee, which

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Speaker 1: is two counties to the north. Since twenty ten, more

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Speaker 1: than a dozen women have either been killed or gone

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Speaker 1: missing in rosscount which is the county north of Pike County,

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Speaker 1: which is probably an hour forty five minutes north of

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Speaker 1: Pike Tent in Chiliicafee. So Megan, A lot of people

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Speaker 1: theorize that Meghan might have been wrapped up in something

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Speaker 1: that got those women killed. But there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: thought and there's a lot of theory or rumor that

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Speaker 1: now that that was separate from what happened to her,

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Speaker 1: and what happened to her points back to possibly Michael Moran,

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Speaker 1: that he would want to assilence her for some reason. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: these are powerful men taking advantage of addicted, unempowered women.

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Speaker 1: And so how would you like Michael Moran in tying

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Speaker 1: this back to the road in case Michael Moran and

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Speaker 1: the situation in Portsmouth, I think just speaks to this community,

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Speaker 1: which I think includes piked In as people. You know,

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Speaker 1: these men in power are kind of doing what they want.

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Speaker 1: And you know when you look at Sheriff Reeder, who

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Speaker 1: handled the investigation for the road and murder, he was

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Speaker 1: also doing what he wanted. You know. Now he's indicted

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Speaker 1: on all these charges of you know, theft from the county. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you know you can the parallel if you're

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Speaker 1: wanting to make a parallel to the road in cases

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Speaker 1: absolutely either a you had ineffectual or corrupt or both

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, right, you had a community or a culture

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Speaker 1: of lawlessness that has descended upon many places in rural America.

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Speaker 1: I will also say there's a major issue in small

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Speaker 1: town America with the quality and quantity of law enforcement

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Speaker 1: that happens there and the lack of accountability. Because nobody's watching,

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Speaker 1: you might be wondering how the crimes and Portsmouth fit

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Speaker 1: into the Road and Family case. While we probably know

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Speaker 1: that Michael Moran and what's happening in Portsmouth is not

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Speaker 1: directly related to the Road and murders, it does speak

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Speaker 1: to the distrust and lack of accountability in law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It's this idea that all these men in power, from

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Speaker 1: judges to attorneys are involved in these crimes and their

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Speaker 1: cover ups. It raises a pretty unnerving question, who do

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Speaker 1: you trust if you can't trust elected officials and law enforcement. Furthermore,

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Speaker 1: this influx of drugs and lack of accountability from law

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Speaker 1: enforcement and the haphazard way piped in authorities tried to

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Speaker 1: recover some seemingly very important evidence is basically exactly what

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Speaker 1: reporter James Pelcher outlined so well in his work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems really systemic in the area, and specifically two

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Speaker 1: piked in and that impacts everything from the top down.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back in a moment. Like many of us, you might

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Speaker 1: Start your free trial at body dot com. That's Bodi

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Speaker 1: dot com. Michael Land from Hoboken, New Jersey, asked if

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Speaker 1: there were any other personal stories we'd heard from people

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Speaker 1: along the way that hadn't made it into the podcast.

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Speaker 1: And here are a few that stand out to us.

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Speaker 1: The relationship between Frederica Wagner and Angela Wagner, her daughter

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Speaker 1: in law, has been the basis of a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversation that it was a troubled relationship and that Angela

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Speaker 1: and her husband were vicious fighters. And we even have

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Speaker 1: heard from a very close source that Angela would actually

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Speaker 1: have to put a little sedative in Billy Wagner's shakes

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Speaker 1: every day because that would lower his temper and that's

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Speaker 1: how she would survive the day. It just paints a picture,

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Speaker 1: whether this is true or not. Here Angela enters the

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Speaker 1: Wagner family. She's feuding with her now mother in law,

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Speaker 1: the matriarch of the family, Frederica her husband. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how tall he actually is. But he's a tall

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Speaker 1: presence of a man, and you know, allegedly hot tempered.

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Speaker 1: So Angela is trying to survive this new dynamic homeschooling

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Speaker 1: her boys and sedating her husband and feuding with her

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Speaker 1: mother in law. It just paints a very complicated picture.

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Speaker 1: It does. And because I can be pedantic of allegedly drugging,

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Speaker 1: but other stuff we did here because I spoke to

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Speaker 1: the same person who was a family member, it was

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Speaker 1: someone who was a family there. This is apparently firsthand

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Speaker 1: account correct. And part of that which I thought also

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Speaker 1: painted such an interesting picture was, like you said, the

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Speaker 1: Wagoners were known fairly widely to have get into it

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Speaker 1: with the fights. And what this source said to us

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Speaker 1: was that she was at the family home, at the

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Speaker 1: Wagner family home, and she commented that Angela had very

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Speaker 1: many decorative baskets all over and she said those are

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Speaker 1: very beautiful. And Angela allegedly said, well, every time we

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Speaker 1: get into a fight and Billy needs to apologize, he

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Speaker 1: buys me another basket because I like him. And so

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Speaker 1: just picturing this house filled with decorative baskets, each one

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Speaker 1: emblematic of an argument, just an interesting picture. Here's a

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Speaker 1: rich question, and it comes Aaron from Malvern, New York,

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Speaker 1: and she asks how to Sheriff Reader play into the

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Speaker 1: investigations and how might he play into the upcoming court trials.

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Speaker 1: He complicates this. I mean he's been accused of many things,

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Speaker 1: and court documents filed just last month the alleged Reader

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Speaker 1: of misappropriating about fifteen thousand dollars and SEES funds and

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Speaker 1: borrowing six thousand dollars from employees, which can be seen

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Speaker 1: as coercion. The records also accuse him of circumventing rules

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Speaker 1: at auctions to improperly get impounded vals for his family

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Speaker 1: so to his benefit. Additionally, the court alleges that Reader

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Speaker 1: on June twenty seventeen, seized seven thousand dollars that prosecutors

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Speaker 1: call quote possible proceeds of drug trafficking. So these are

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Speaker 1: charges that have gone for several years, and there's even

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Speaker 1: new allegations that charge him and engaging in a pattern

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Speaker 1: of corrupt activity, which is a first degree felony, and

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Speaker 1: prosecutors have long used the charge as a way to

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Speaker 1: attack organized crime figures and major drug dealers by seeking

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Speaker 1: long prison senses. So the fact that they're using this

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Speaker 1: against a sheriff is interesting strategy. You know, the issue

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Speaker 1: is now that his character is being called into question,

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Speaker 1: and according to sources we've talked to, the criminal justice

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Speaker 1: experts agree that if Reader is found of any wrongdoing,

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Speaker 1: it could pose obstacles for the prosecution in the trials

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Speaker 1: against the Wagners. You know, Reader was the front man

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Speaker 1: of making everybody feel at ease that the investigation was

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Speaker 1: being handled, but frankly was kind of doing a messy

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Speaker 1: job from the gem. Yeah. I mean, in theory, you

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Speaker 1: could look at every single case sheriff Freeder took the

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Speaker 1: lead on and wonder what he was doing behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes in order to make an arrest, which would include

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Speaker 1: the Rodent investigation. On the other side of that, though,

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Speaker 1: you know, what experts are saying is that the prosecution

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Speaker 1: might argue to the judge on the case that Reader's

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Speaker 1: criminal history isn't relevant to the Wagner trials and thus

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be heard by a jury, and they'll do that

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Speaker 1: by downplaying his role in the investigation. And if that

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Speaker 1: becomes the case, then it won't necessarily be a death

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Speaker 1: blow to the state's case. Another expert was quoted as

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Speaker 1: saying in the press. Officers are human beings like everybody else,

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Speaker 1: and so sometimes juries can weigh in on that and

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Speaker 1: decide what kind of credence they want to give to

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Speaker 1: his behavior. Schriff Frieder also potentially jeopardized the investigation by

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Speaker 1: having the Rodents cars and mobile homes moved off site.

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Speaker 1: Wich attorney Mike Allen, an investigative reporter Jodie Barr talked

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Speaker 1: about in episode five. So Sheriff Reeder's involvement is far

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Speaker 1: reaching and it has the potential to effect in multiple ways,

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Speaker 1: not only during the investigation but moving forward with the trials. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was something else early on in the investigation that

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Speaker 1: happened that really did cause a stir and that's the

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Speaker 1: road In autopsy reports. And for some reason these were

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Speaker 1: held up in being released to the media outlets, which

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Speaker 1: is something that happens occasionally in criminal cases, but it

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Speaker 1: garnered a lot of attention, specifically with the road In case.

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Speaker 1: Probably the reason why is oftentimes autopsies are not released

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Speaker 1: to the public because there might be a tell or

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Speaker 1: something very significant in those autopsy reports. For example, this

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Speaker 1: is just top of head, not related to the Wagner

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Speaker 1: or road In case at all. If somebody had a

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Speaker 1: certain tattoo marking or had been cut in a certain

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Speaker 1: way that only the perpetrator slash killer would know, then

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Speaker 1: authorities don't want that information to be wildly known because

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Speaker 1: it's something that would be helpful to know if there

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Speaker 1: was a confession, for example, So if somebody confessed, they

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Speaker 1: would know that information. So that is not entirely uncommon,

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Speaker 1: although in this case it seems that was not the

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Speaker 1: reason why. Yeah, it's speculated that it's not the reason why.

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Speaker 1: And this is this one. Actually all the way up

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Speaker 1: to the Ohio Supreme Court, two outlets, the Columbus Dispatch

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Speaker 1: and the Cincinnati Enquirer, sued the state for the right

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Speaker 1: to the autopsies. The suit was filed against the Pike

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Speaker 1: County Coroner, David Kessler, and that came after the Dispatch

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Speaker 1: was denied three separate times officially asking for the final

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Speaker 1: autopsy reports. And what the Dispatch's claim was was that

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Speaker 1: the final autopsy reports are of great public interest and

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Speaker 1: quote significant value to the Dispatch and our news gathering activities.

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Speaker 1: The authorities really were apprehensive to release the autopsy information,

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Speaker 1: arguing that the release could hinder the investigation. I wonder,

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Speaker 1: just to harp on this a little longer, like what

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Speaker 1: was the city, Like what was Pike County really trying

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Speaker 1: to protect? You know? Four times, three times seems like

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Speaker 1: a lot of times to continue to fight the release

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Speaker 1: of this and now that we know what they say,

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Speaker 1: like what in there was so damning to the investigation?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just like seems like a lot. Well.

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Speaker 1: I actually spoke with attorney Jack Grenier, and he was

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Speaker 1: one of the lawyers who filed the suit on behalf

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Speaker 1: of the dispatch, and he had some really compelling thoughts.

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Speaker 1: You have to kind of wonder in light of the

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Speaker 1: troubles that's the sheriff ultimately got into what was motivating

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Speaker 1: the desire to keep things kind of quiet. Because this

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Speaker 1: is a pretty good example of, in my view, law

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Speaker 1: enforcement overreacting. And I say that kind of cautiously because

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Speaker 1: you know, it's say it was multiple murders in a

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Speaker 1: gruesome situation. But I think the idea of you know,

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Speaker 1: you just have to withhold as much information as you

429
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 1: possibly can from the public, and even maybe more information

430
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: than you're allowed you with whole is to me an overreaction,

431
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: and I think we saw that in this case, you

432
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: know that somehow, you know, if any piece of information

433
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: get out there would somehow derail the whole investigation. I

434
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: just I just don't buy into that. The Inquirer really

435
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: argued that it was in the public's best interest to

436
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 1: know what the autopsy said and to review. I mean,

437
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: what we learned from the autopsies is pretty important in

438
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: terms of what happened to the road ents. We learned

439
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: how many times they were shot, where they were shot

440
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: rich really did speak to how personal the crimes were.

441
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: Some of these family members were shot multiple times in

442
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: the face with a shotgun, and so if this was

443
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: a drug cartel head, you know, it wasn't once and quick.

444
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: It was personal and it was an overkill, which is

445
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: what we learned from the autopsies. Once these autopsies would

446
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: be released, here we go again, more questions with few answers,

447
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: and sure enough, that's exactly what happened. Thankfully we have

448
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: this information and we could actually really look at these

449
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: autopsy reports in great detail, and I can speak for

450
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: myself saying it was really dark and twisted. When you

451
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: really do see just how much to your point, Chef

452
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: of an overkill, this really was. Yeah, it made me think,

453
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: like what releasing this autopsy would do to the town

454
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: of piked In and speaking to a fair amount of

455
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: the residence, and just the feeling of uncertainty. I don't

456
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: know how it would if it was a good thing

457
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: or a bad thing, because the people in piked In

458
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: were thinking it was a drug cartel who did this

459
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: prior to the autopsy release, and that created a sense

460
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: of fear. But then I think after the autopsies or released,

461
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: people started circling in on the Wagoners and really thinking

462
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: they did it, which created a whole other set of

463
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 1: problems in terms of this kind of small town justice

464
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: that the Wagoners faced, whether they deserve it or not,

465
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: creates a whole new problem for the sheriff's office. Let's

466
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in

467
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: a moment. How Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now

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472
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Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do, and we'll stop at nothing.

473
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477
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Speaker 1: I had to live a double life to save my son.

479
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Speaker 1: This is the last chance to get my kids back,

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Speaker 1: conditions at UNEs dot COO. So, we were talking about

524
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: the informant, which we've covered in the past, but I

525
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: know there has been some other questions out there. Yeah,

526
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: so Woody from Comac New York Us on social media

527
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: about the likelihood that the informant is in fact one

528
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: of the Wagner four. I'm obsessed with understanding more about

529
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: the informant personally. So you definitely think it must be

530
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: a family member who turned must is a strong statement.

531
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: I think the likelihood. I think it seems likely only

532
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: because if this family allegedly did commit this careful careful,

533
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: planned out murders that they spent months planning. Why would

534
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: they then be so careless and have someone else involved

535
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: enough with the information that they could turn state's evidence.

536
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: So to me, it says that if they kept it

537
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: all within the family, then necessarily it would have to

538
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: be someone in the family. It's unknowable at this point,

539
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: but that's what makes sense to me. Is it possible

540
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: that it's Rita, Angela Wagner's mother because she would have

541
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: maybe been witnessed as some of these conversations. I mean,

542
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: it's possible that it's any of them, assuming it's one

543
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: of the four. Let's just play this out for a second.

544
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: If Courtney, if you're correct, and it's one of the

545
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: four or of the Wagoners that are the accused. To me,

546
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: if one of them was going to fold, George, the

547
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: eldest son, seems the most likely. And for that I

548
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: say simply because he had the least amount of skin

549
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: in the game. If he wasn't fighting for his niece solely,

550
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't, you know, maybe supercharged by love

551
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: the way Jake was. He wasn't super charged about protecting

552
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: his children the way Angela maybe was about her son Jake,

553
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: and her granddaughter. We know the dads potentially had some

554
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: sort of a confrontation leading up that could be charged

555
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: by emotion. But that said, he turns now he's the

556
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: one asking for solitary confinement and a bible. The fact

557
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: that they were trying to get George Wagner off on

558
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: bail very recently, that would speak to this as well,

559
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: that A, he's the informant. B just through the basic

560
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: ways that you would be released from prison on bail.

561
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: They made that attempt. It was unsuccess full on the

562
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: behalf of the defense, but that is interesting strategy. By

563
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: the way, how shocking would this be if George Wagner,

564
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: the eldest son, had to actually appear in court and

565
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: testify against his mother and his father and his younger

566
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: brother Jake. That would be shocking. So while it is

567
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: all speculation, it is all possible, and several reputable sources

568
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: have said it's not the most unlikely thing. Just as

569
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: a legal reminder, Angela, Billy, Jake, and George Wagner were

570
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother, Rita Joe Nukam

571
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: and Billy Wagner's mother Frederica were both charged with obstruction

572
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also charged with forgery.

573
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: All six of them pled not guilty, and our justice

574
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: system presumes innocence until guilt is proven. Jodi Barr, who

575
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: we heard from throughout the course of this podcast, has

576
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: summed up pretty well how the three of us feel

577
00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: about this case. So, I mean, this is a case

578
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: I think about it. I'm pretty sure every day, and

579
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: you know again, that's why I'm very eager to hear

580
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: from you know, I just want to see this trial.

581
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: I want to know more about what happened here and

582
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: if they really do have the right people. It sounds

583
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: like they do. I mean, these indictments are very lengthy,

584
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: very detailed, but that's only one side of this. I

585
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: want to hear from the Wagner's and see if they

586
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: have an explanation because at the end of the day,

587
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: when the last trial is held, in the last jury,

588
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: if it get to that point, you know, I would

589
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: hope that the Rodent family can walk out of that

590
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: courtroom and know for sure that the people who did

591
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: this are are the people who go to prison for it.

592
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I can't think of a better way to hand down justice.

593
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: We've talked about this a lot, and people ask us,

594
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: you know why we work in crime investigations in general,

595
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: and I think their truth is victims have a voice

596
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: even after death, and for us, we really do want

597
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: to share our deepest sympathy with the Rodent family. I

598
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: think the point of this podcast is to really angle

599
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: towards shining light on the injustices that the Rodent family

600
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: faced and help bring a sense of closure and answers

601
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: to the surviving Rodent family. Well. I think also when

602
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: the Wagoners finally do have their day in court, our

603
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: hope is that the Rodents finally see justice piked in

604
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: Massacres Executive produced by Stephanie Laidecker and me Courtney Armstrong.

605
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional

606
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Piketon Massacre

607
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more

608
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

609
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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Since her role

610
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Speaker 1: as White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid

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Speaker 1: is always willing to hold the powerful accountable. On her

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Speaker 1: connecting with her rolodex of sources, and pulling the threads

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Speaker 1: of a story together right up to the minute she

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Speaker 1: goes live, so viewers are getting the very latest The

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