1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, As we gather with 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: family and friends later this week for the Thanksgiving holiday, 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to devote an episode to the uniquely American 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 1: tradition and history of Thanksgiving. When we imagine the first Thanksgiving, 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: we think of the Mayflower Pilgrims and Native Americans gathered 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: together at a long table outside, celebrating with a feast. 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: In fact, what we consider the first Thanksgiving was celebrated 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: in October sixteen twenty one, after the Pilgrim's first harvest. 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: The feast lasted for three days and included games and 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: all around good cheer. Was attended by ninety Wapanoa warriors 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: and fifty three Pilgrims. According to Pilgrim Edward Winslow's account, 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: they gathered together to give thanks to the Lord for 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: the bounty of the harvest and the rich natural resources 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: of this American continent. Today's Thanksgiving still reflects the American 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: values of the holiday, as the Pilgrims originally celebrated in 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: sixteen twenty one. Hospitality, time with friends and family, bountiful food, 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: and generosity to those in need. I'm pleased to welcome 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: my guest, Melanie Kirkpatrick. Senior fellow at the Husband Institute, 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: an author of Thanksgiving, The Holiday at the Heart of 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: the American Experience. First of all, what led you to 21 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: write Thanksgiving the Holiday at the Heart of American Experience. 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: I was in Manhattan downtown at the near the Wall 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: Street Journal offices on the day that the Twin Towers 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: were attacked, and, like most New Yorkers, like most Americans, 25 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: that had a profound effect on me. One of the 26 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: things I did was start thinking more deeply about what 27 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: it meant to be an American. And I decided to 28 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: a book I'd never read before, which was William Bradford's 29 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: Journal of Plymouth Plantation, and I was really blown away 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: by it. And some of the challenges that the Pilgrims 31 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: faced when they came to this continent and had to 32 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: think about were similar to what we Americans were thinking 33 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: about in the wake of the September eleventh attack. If 34 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving got closer, I read ahead to the passage on 35 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: the first Thanksgiving in Plymouth in sixteen twenty one, and 36 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: I was struck by how similar it was to the 37 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: holiday we celebrate today, and that got me interested in 38 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: the holiday, and I began researching it I wrote a 39 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: couple of odd beds on different aspects of the holiday 40 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: for the Wall Street Journal, where I was working, and 41 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: then when I retired from the journal, I started writing books, 42 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: and the history of Thanksgiving, which nobody had really done before, 43 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: was at the top of my list. But I'm fascinating 44 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: for a couple of reasons. One is it's always struck 45 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: me that one of the keys to Thanksgiving is that 46 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: you have to have something to give thanks for, and 47 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: that there's a real connectivity emotionally. And if you go 48 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: back to the very beginning, but if you look at Washington, 49 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,639 Speaker 1: or you look at Lincoln or what have you, these 50 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: are folks who really are thankful. It's not just a 51 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: good day to eat turkey and watch football, but in fact, 52 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: it was a day where they truly were giving thanks 53 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: Why don't you start us, if you don't mind, at 54 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: the very beginning with what happened in Massachusetts and how 55 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: the original Thanksgiving started. There are two eyewitness accounts of 56 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: the first Thanksgiving, so you can extrapolate from them. And 57 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: the first thing I'll note is that the word thanksgiving 58 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: doesn't appear in either of those first person accounts. For 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: the pilgrims. The feast that we think of as the 60 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: First Thanksgiving was not a Thanksgiving day. It was more 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: of a harvest festival. And of course, though the pilgrims 62 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: gave thanks, because they were champions giving thanks, they were 63 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: giving thanks in every aspect of their lives. It was 64 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: a three day festival, and we know that at some 65 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: point during the three days, the ninety Indian braves appeared, 66 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: and I've always thought that's interesting because that was twice 67 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: the number of pilgrims that were left, and of course 68 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: some of the pilgrims were women and children. One of 69 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: the things we read is that they shot off their 70 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: arms as a kind of sport, you know, or entertainment 71 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: during the three days, and I've often wondered if that 72 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: perhaps was intended as a signal to their Native American 73 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: neighbors that even though they were small in number, they 74 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: were well prepared to fight off any possible attack. But anyhow, 75 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: the Native Americans were led by a very brilliant and 76 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: I think generous king by the name of Massasoit. He 77 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: had ruck a peace treaty with the English settlers, and 78 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: as they arrived for the harvest festival, we don't know 79 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: whether they were invited or whether they just arrived. Another 80 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: thing we learn from Winslow is that the wampano and 81 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: Indians brought five deer, five dead deer which they had shot. 82 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: And you think about it, what do you do if 83 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: you're invited to a Thanksgiving feast today? You ask what 84 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: can I bring? So those five deer would have served 85 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: the group for several days. I actually, in writing this, 86 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: consulted a friend of mine who I live in New England, 87 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: who is a hunter, and he described to me how 88 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: much each deer, how many meals it would provide, and 89 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: back then they would have used and eaten part of 90 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the parts of the deer that we don't eat today. 91 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: So if you want to eat what the Pilgrims ate, 92 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: you have to start with venison. Turkey is also mentioned. 93 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: Were big flocks of wild turkey and flocks of other 94 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: fowl that the two talk about, and corn and beans 95 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: would have been on the menu. The Wampanoan taught the 96 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: Pilgrims how to plant those vegetables using fish as fertilizer. 97 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Then there were native plants that they might well have 98 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: learned how to use. Again, thanks to the Native Americans, 99 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: and those include jerusalem artichokes, garlic, concord, grapes, walnuts and chestnuts, 100 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: and even cranberries, though it's unlikely that cranberries were on 101 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: the menu because if you've ever tasted one cranberry, you 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: know that it's really sour you don't want to eat 103 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: a second one, and the Pilgrims did not have sugar 104 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: with them. Cranberry sauce recipes came later in the century. 105 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: Pumpkins could have been on the menu too, though not 106 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: as pie. Pumpkins were native to the area, and of 107 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: course the English knew how to make pie, but they 108 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: didn't have wheat, so pumpkin pie didn't appear until later. 109 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: That said, they could very well have hollowed out a 110 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: pumpkin and cooked it over a fire of some sort, 111 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: so it's possible that something akin to a pumpkin pie 112 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: was on the menu. The Pilgrims had many things to 113 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: be thankful for at that first Thanksgiving. Of course, they 114 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: were thankful to have arrived in the New World after 115 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: a difficult journey. They were also thankful to have survived. 116 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: About half original Pilgrims died in the first winter due 117 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: to cold and poor nutrition, and disease. That's unclear what 118 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: it was that struck after they had been there about 119 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: only two weeks, so they were thankful for their survival. 120 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: They were also thankful for the bounty of the harvest, 121 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: and that was of course due in part to the 122 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: bounty of the forests and the sea right near them, 123 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: but also thanks to the help of the Native Americans. 124 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: I don't think the Pilgrims would have survived that first 125 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: winter if it had not been for the help of 126 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: the Native Americans. And finally, I would say another great 127 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: accomplishment for which they were deeply grateful was peace with 128 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: the Native people. Now that wouldn't last, and as the 129 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: decades went by there would be terrible wars and lots 130 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: of death on both sides. But at the time of 131 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: the first Thanksgiving, the two people were living in harmony. 132 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: And I like to think that that image points the 133 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: way to the multicultural people we've become. So I understand 134 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: it did not become an automatic every year holiday at 135 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: that point. That's exactly right. The first day of thanks 136 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: Giving that the Pilgrims celebrated officially was two years later, 137 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: and it was in July, hardly a season we think 138 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: of as Thanksgiving season. There had been a drought that 139 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: had lasted from May. Their crops were dying and it rained, 140 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: so they gave thanks for the rain and called a 141 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: day of Thanksgiving. And those early days of Thanksgiving were 142 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: spent in worship for the most part, and I'm talking 143 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: now about the early seventeenth century, but there would be 144 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: sometimes the meal after the Thanksgiving services. And there is 145 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: the earliest example I could discover of Thanksgiving generosity and 146 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving hospitality was from the sixteen thirties in Situate, Massachusetts, 147 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: where there was a call for a Thanksgiving and after 148 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: which the richer sort were asked to take care of 149 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: the poorer sort. So that tradition of hospitality and generosity 150 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: does go back a long way. As the seventeenth century progressed, 151 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving days varied from colony to colony. Connecticut was the 152 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: first to call for a colony wide day of general Thanksgiving, 153 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: and that was in sixteen thirty nine. Now, a general 154 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving is different from the kinds of Thanksgivings that were 155 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: usually celebrated before that. Before that, communities or churches would 156 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: call a Thanksgiving for a specific event, such as a 157 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: victory over Native Americans, in a military skirmish or a 158 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: reign that ended a drought, that kind of specific event. 159 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: But in sixteen thirty nine, Connecticut called for a day 160 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: of general Thanksgiving, which was the time for people to 161 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: come together in worship and give thanks for God's many blessings. 162 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: This was a controversial idea which is hard to believe 163 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: in the context of the twenty first century, but some 164 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: people argued that having a day of general thanksgiving would 165 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: mean that people would take gratitude for granted. However, if 166 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: there were specific blessings for which to give thanks, that 167 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: would make them more deeply grateful. They actually had an 168 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: argument about this and did the general thanksgiving people finally win? 169 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: They did. By the end of the seventeenth century, general 170 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: thanksgiving were the norm. They were usually followed by a 171 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: large meal with family and friends. That of course continued 172 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: into the eighteenth century, where we begin to read more 173 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: about the thanksgiving celebrations themselves and the kinds of food 174 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: that were eaten. At some point, every colony would name 175 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: a Thanksgiving Day and that would be proclaimed by the 176 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: governor of the colony. And my understanding it starts in 177 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: New England, but does it spread rapidly to all of 178 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: the colonies. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, colonies would 179 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: hold their own Thanksgivings, but it was more from a 180 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: religious tradition than from a New England tradition. Though as 181 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: the country expanded, especially in the nineteenth century, New Englanders 182 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: took the holiday with them to the frontier, and that's 183 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: how the holidays spread. By the time we get to 184 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: the American Revolution, I gather it's pretty widespread to have Thanksgiving. 185 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: Do we have any notion that it existed anywhere else 186 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: outside what would become the United States. Certainly no country 187 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: has a tradition other than the United States that's been 188 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: associated with many events in our history. The Thanksgiving tradition 189 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: was followed by the Continental Congress, and it issued several 190 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: days of Thanksgiving during the Revolutionary War. But it was 191 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: Washington who was the first to call a national Thanksgiving 192 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: for America as a nation. So up until then I've 193 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: been mostly provincial, and suddenly you have a nationwide, all 194 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: thirteen colonies and later all thirteen states. Right, it went 195 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: from Thanksgivings called and celebrated by individual churches and individual 196 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: communities to then being celebrated in an individual colony, and 197 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: eventually during the Revolutionary War, and then when we became 198 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: a country celebrated nationally. In A Washington's case, doesn't he 199 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: tie it directly to the notion that our achievements really 200 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: were providential, that you could not understand how we had 201 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: defeated the greatest empire in the world without awayness that 202 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: God had a hand in it. That's exactly right. I 203 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: should say that Washington mentions God very prominently in his 204 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving proclamations, and every president since Lincoln has followed that example. 205 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: God is very much present in those Thanksgiving proclamations. The 206 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:25,479 Speaker 1: idea of a Thanksgiving proclamation was controversial. In seventeen eighty nine, 207 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Congress had a very vigorous debate over whether the president 208 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: had the authority to do that. There were two objections. 209 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: One was that he didn't have the authority under the Constitution, 210 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: and the authority to call a Thanksgiving belonged to the 211 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: governor of the individual states, not to the president of 212 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: the United States. And the second objection was that it 213 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: was a religious holiday and the president shouldn't have anything 214 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: to do with it. But in the end there was 215 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: a vote, it passed, and a delegation one to Washington 216 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: and asked him to declare a Thanksgiving Day, and he 217 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: did a very smart and wonderful thing. At that point. 218 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: He issued the proclamation, but he didn't order anybody to 219 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: celebrate the day. Instead, he sent a copy to every 220 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: governor and requested them to ask their people to celebrate 221 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: on the day that he designated. And of course every 222 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: governor was only too happy to comply, and the governors 223 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: then issued their own proclamations and the country celebrated as 224 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: a whole. You then get the great trauma of the 225 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: Civil War. You again get Lincoln coming back with Thanksgiving 226 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: being a very important date to him. And there is 227 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: an interesting story there about a woman who deserves to 228 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: be better known than she is, and her name was 229 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: Sarah Joseph A. Hale. She was a New Englander and 230 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: she was editor of the most popular magazine of the 231 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: pre Civil War period, Godie's Ladies Book, And for twenty 232 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: some years she had been pressing a campaign to have 233 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: a national Thanksgiving, because even though Thanksgiving was now being 234 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: celebrated in most states and in most parts of the country, 235 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: it was all on different days. And she thought that 236 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: if we had a national Thanksgiving, if Americans were celebrating 237 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: on the same day, that it would help to preserve 238 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: the Union as well as be a unifying force in 239 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: American culture. She thought that Americans still were not unified 240 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: as a culture, that we had won the war, the 241 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War, but we hadn't developed our own distinct culture, 242 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: and Thanksgiving she saw as part of doing them. Anyhow, 243 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: she wrote to four or five presidents during that period, 244 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: and she was probably the best known woman in America 245 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: in the pre Civil War period, and they all replied, no, 246 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: we're not going to do it. When the eighteen sixties 247 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 1: came around, she wrote to Lincoln, of course, and Lincoln, 248 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: inspired by her letter, issued a proclamation in eighteen sixty three. 249 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: The timing of that proclamation was interesting too, because it 250 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: came a couple of months after the Battle of Gettysburg, 251 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: and by that point I believe it was clearer that 252 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: the Union was going to win. And so Lincoln's proclamation 253 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,479 Speaker 1: has beautiful language in it, and it points the way 254 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: to the post war period when Americans can come together again. 255 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: It has very lyrical, lovely language. Lincoln is using Thanksgiving 256 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: as a holiday to bring us together. Then you get 257 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: Franklin Roosevelt, who sort of plays around with the date. 258 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: What was he trying to achieve? Franklin Roosevelt in the 259 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties had the idea that if he made the 260 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: date of Thanksgiving a week earlier, that Americans would have 261 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: more time to shop for the Christmas holidays, and that 262 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: would give the economy a boost. Now, this was a 263 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: pretty dumb economic idea. Americans weren't going to spend more 264 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: money if they had an extra week, for the simple 265 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: fact that they didn't have the money to spend. But 266 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: be that as a may He called a press conference 267 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: announcing that he was changing the date of Thanksgiving, and 268 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: the country erupted. FDR had a good sense of how 269 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: things would play among the public, but here he failed completely, 270 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: and so the country split. Because there was no law 271 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: designating the date of Thanksgiving, it was just a tradition. 272 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: The president really didn't have any authority here. So half 273 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: the states decided to stick with the traditional day of Thanksgiving, 274 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: which was the last Thursday of November, and the other 275 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: half decided to go with Roosevelt's state. There was the 276 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: Democratic Thanksgiving and the Republican Thanksgiving, as they would call it. 277 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: And sometimes they even referred to the Democrat of Thanksgiving 278 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: as Franksgiving after Roosevelt himself. This caused an uproars throughout 279 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: the country and it made it difficult for a lot 280 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: of people. And my mother was an example of that. 281 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: She was in college in Boston, where they, of course 282 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: celebrated the traditional date of Thanksgiving, but she lived in Buffalo, 283 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: in New York State, Roosevelt state, where they celebrated the 284 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: Democrat at Thanksgiving, and she couldn't go home for Thanksgiving 285 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: the four years she was in college. In nineteen forty one, 286 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: it was clear that the experiment was a failure. The 287 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: economy had not improved, people didn't spend more money during 288 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: the holiday shopping season, and so Congress past a resolution 289 00:19:53,880 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: making Thanksgiving the fourth Thursday of the month. One of 290 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: the most famous paintings to celebrate Thanksgiving was Norman Rockwell's 291 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: Freedom from Want, which was the third of the four 292 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: Freedom series of oil paintings, which were inspired by Roosevelt's 293 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: nineteen forty one Steady Union address. Why do you think 294 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: that particular painting has had such longevity and what does 295 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: it tell us about American culture? Tells us? A couple 296 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: of things. One is it tells us about the prosperity 297 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: of America. You look at that picture which shows people 298 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: around the Thanksgiving table and Grandma is presenting an enormous 299 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: turkey to the family. She's about to set it on 300 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: the table, and Grandpa's going to carve it. The American 301 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: people were creative enough to create this vibrant economy that 302 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: would produced such a meal. And by the way, when 303 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: that picture was on display in the Soviet Union in 304 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: the fifties or sixties, people there thought it was an exaggeration, 305 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: that it was not possible to have a meal like this, 306 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: and that it was just American propaganda. Another thing the 307 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: painting tells us is it talks about American togetherness, the 308 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: importance of family, the fact that we have this tradition 309 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: that can trace its origins back almost four hundred years. 310 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: It's a statement about that. It's a link to the 311 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: past as well. There are two images from the second 312 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: half of the nineteenth century about Thanksgiving that I think 313 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: are just marvelous. One is a very famous lithograph by 314 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: Courier and Ives titled Home to Thanksgiving, and it's a 315 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: farm scene and it shows a family arriving at the 316 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: farmhouse's young family, and the grandmother and the grandfather have 317 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: come out to greet them at someplace in New England unspecified, 318 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: and there is so much snow there, which is a 319 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: hoot because in the middle of the nineteenth century it 320 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: was the end of the Little Ice Age and there 321 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: was so much more snow on Thanksgiving than there typically 322 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: is today. We still get snow here in New England 323 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: one Thanksgiving, but certainly not every year. And this painting 324 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: looks more like a New England Christmas today than it 325 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: does like a New England Thanksgiving. The second piece of 326 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 1: art that I think speaks volumes about the meaning of 327 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving is a cartoon titled Uncle Sam's Thanksgiving Dinner, and 328 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: it was published in eighteen sixty nine, and it shows 329 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam presiding over a large Thanksgiving table. He's carving 330 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: the turkey, and then you start looking at the people 331 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: around the table, and they're from all parts of the world. 332 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: There is a Native American wearing a feather, there is 333 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: a Spanish woman wearing a mantilla on her head, a 334 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: Muslim man with a fez on his head, an African 335 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: American grouping, and a Chinese man with a long queue 336 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: down his back. And the idea of the cartoon is 337 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: that here we are, all Americans, having made it to 338 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: this country, and this is how we celebrate together. This 339 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: is an image of what the spirit of America is, 340 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: what the essence of America is. And the cartoonist, by 341 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: the way, was an immigrant from Germany. The cartoon also 342 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: carries a political message. There's a banner on one wall 343 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: that reads fifteenth Amendment and it hangs over the portrait 344 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: of President Grant, and the cartoonist, Thomas Nast, was by 345 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: putting this in his cartoon, he was endorsing the ratification 346 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: of a proposed constitutional amendment that would guarantee the voting 347 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: rights of all Americans, regardless of race. Just as all 348 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: Americans have a right to sit at the Thanksgiving table, 349 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: Nast was trying to say, they also have a right 350 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: to share in the full benefits of being a citizen, 351 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: including voting. I was intrigued because you described teaching at 352 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: a recent immigrant high school where they all kind of 353 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: got it. What was that experience like, Oh, this was 354 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: a wonderful experience for me. I went to Newcomber's High 355 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: School in Queens, New York, that is in New York 356 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: City and it's a high school for recent immigrants. The 357 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: day I was there to talk about Thanksgivings, there were 358 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: students from I think sixty countries, and they spoke dozens 359 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: of languages. They all were about to celebrate their first 360 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: or second Thanksgiving, and those kids had a better understanding 361 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: of the meaning of the holiday than some American kids, 362 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: I think. For example, when we were discussing the holiday, 363 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: a boy from Tibet spoke up. Now, Tibet has not 364 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: existed as a country since nineteen fifty when China took 365 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: it over. He nonetheless talked about being from Tibet, where 366 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: he was not allowed to practice his religion, which was 367 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: the Buddhism of the Dalai Lama. So he said he 368 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: was like one of the pilgrims. He came to this 369 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: country seeking religious freedom. And then a girl spoke up, 370 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: and she was from Egypt. She was a copt which 371 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: is an ancient form of Christianity, and that her family 372 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: came to America too for freedom of religion. Then some 373 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 1: other kids started talking about how their families came to 374 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: America and the reasons that they came here. One spoke 375 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: about how the father of the family had a better 376 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: job here, and the family could live better here and 377 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: get better education. And this girl, too felt a kinship 378 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: with the Pilgrims for that reason. They were all looking 379 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: forward to their first Thanksgiving, and for them it was 380 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: a rite of passage in becoming an American and in 381 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: becoming embedded in their new culture. I think that's true, 382 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: though it has been true since the waves of immigrants 383 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: began coming here in the mid nineteenth century. Does you 384 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: point out in the very total of your book Thanksgiving 385 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: as one of the things that makes us different and 386 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: that there is kind of an American uniqueness that Thanksgiving 387 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: as a piece of that from your perspective, would that 388 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: be an accurate statement that you see thanks Giving is 389 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: a distinct part of a tradition, so it's different from 390 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: what a lot of other people have. Oh. Absolutely. The 391 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: statement that I think describes Thanksgiving best of all is 392 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: won by the late historian Samuel Elliott Morrison, who in 393 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties wrote that the Pilgrims are the spiritual ancestors 394 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 1: of all Americans, whatever their stock, race, or creed, and 395 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: that is a statement that should hold true today but 396 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: is increasingly being questioned today as we become a lot 397 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: more divisive, and there's a greater focus on what divides 398 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: us rather than what unites us. Thanksgiving helps to bring 399 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: us together. Think about gratitude to God and or gratitude 400 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: if you don't. But it's also a patriotic holiday in 401 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: my view. It links us to our past in our 402 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: history where Thanksgiving played a role and every person has 403 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: his seat at the Thanksgiving table. It also suggests American generosity. 404 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: That's another aspect of our national character that helps define us. 405 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: I think American generosity is most evident around Thanksgiving. It's 406 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: become the beginning of the giving season. And it's not 407 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: just money, it's volunteerism. You think about the people who 408 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: volunteer on Thanksgiving Day or around Thanksgiving at homeless shelters 409 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: or elsewhere. Just about every American is included in the holiday, 410 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: whether they are soldiers stationed overseas, whether that's the homeless, 411 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: people look out for their fellow Americans on Thanksgiving. I 412 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: really appreciate your doing this. Well, thank you, and let 413 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: me be the first to wish you and klosta happy Thanksgiving. 414 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you very much. Thank you to my 415 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: guest Melanie Kirkpatrick, You can get a link to order 416 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: her book, Thanksgiving The Holiday at the Heart of the 417 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: American Experience on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 418 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gangwich three sixty and iHeartMedia. 419 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our producer is Guarnsey Sloan, 420 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 421 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 422 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 423 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 424 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 425 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 426 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: of newts World can sign up for my three free 427 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. 428 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: I'm newt Gingwig. This is Newtsworld.