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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wik f Daily with

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Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Daniel Moody, recording from the Home Bunker, Folks.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday was the oral arguments being heard in the Scrammatic

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Speaker 1: case at the Supreme Court that are going to decide

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Speaker 1: transgender rights in this country. The case is being argued

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Speaker 1: by and openly trans attorney Chase Strangio with the ACLU.

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Speaker 1: And you know, with this six to three court that

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Speaker 1: we have, we can already predict what is going to

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Speaker 1: happen here. But what it got me thinking about is

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Speaker 1: humanity and that when will there come a time when

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Speaker 1: human beings are allowed to just be, to just exist,

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Speaker 1: free from oppression, from persecution, free from the opinions of

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Speaker 1: nine unelected black robes to decide whether or not you

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Speaker 1: deserve dignity and respect and a full and complete and

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Speaker 1: abundant and beautiful life. And I say this to you,

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Speaker 1: and I'm kind of choking up a bit because it

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Speaker 1: never ends. The targets just change, but it never ends.

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Speaker 1: And I think about Brown versus the Board of Education,

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Speaker 1: and I think about Plusy versus Ferguson, and I think

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Speaker 1: about the dread Scott decision, and I think about being

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Speaker 1: label three fifths of a human being. And I think

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Speaker 1: about all of the decisions that are made largely by

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Speaker 1: unelected bodies that get to decide whose body is worthy

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Speaker 1: and whose is not, and that for so long, those

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Speaker 1: that sat on high were straight white men making the

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Speaker 1: decisions about other people's bodies and their humanities, and nothing

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Speaker 1: has really changed. Sure, there are a couple of women

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Speaker 1: that are on the court and two people of color,

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Speaker 1: but really only one because we all know Clarence Thomas

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Speaker 1: hates himself and hates black people. But it just it

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Speaker 1: never stops. And so I think about being there as

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Speaker 1: a trans person and arguing about your right to exist,

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Speaker 1: your right to take hormones, right to identify in the

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Speaker 1: way that you choose. Why is it so hard? I

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Speaker 1: really don't understand why it is so hard, As Tim

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Speaker 1: Wall said, to mind your own fucking business. What does

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Speaker 1: a transperson taking hormones have to do with me if

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Speaker 1: I'm not the one ingesting them. What does someone marrying

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Speaker 1: someone of the same sex have to do with me

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Speaker 1: and my life if nobody is forcing me to marry.

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Speaker 1: Why can't we just acknowledge people as human beings worthy

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Speaker 1: of dignity and respect for no other reason than they

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Speaker 1: were born. I don't think that I'll ever live inside

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Speaker 1: of that world, but I really do hope that somebody does.

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Speaker 1: Coming up next my conversation with our friend, our in

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Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, offering up his reflections on

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Speaker 1: the last four years of our weekly conversations on WOKF

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Speaker 1: that have been such a guiding light for me through

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Speaker 1: some really dark times. And I'm just so grateful and

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Speaker 1: appreciative that Jonathan will be closing out the year with

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Speaker 1: us and with this show, and we will, dear friends,

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Speaker 1: have some exciting news on the horizon, because you know,

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Speaker 1: new space, new opportunities is what is coming our way.

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Speaker 1: So coming up next that conversation with our friend Jonathan Metzel, Folks,

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Speaker 1: I am always very pleased when I have the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to speak with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel

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Speaker 1: as we close out Jonathan WOKEF at the end of

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Speaker 1: this year. I guess one of the first questions that

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you today, as I'm very much

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Speaker 1: in reflection mode as many people are, that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what the end of the year brings. We've been in

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Speaker 1: conversation for the last four years on a weekly basis

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Speaker 1: for four years, and we have been through a lot

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Speaker 1: during that time, and I guess I want to ask you, like,

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Speaker 1: what has stood out to you during this time of

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Speaker 1: less being in conversation during a global health pandemic and

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Speaker 1: insurrection like multiple One cannot count the amount of mass

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Speaker 1: shootings that we've talked about.

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Speaker 2: It was really that we realized that we were having

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Speaker 2: a conversation that wasn't happening in a lot of other places.

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Speaker 2: I think you know, you and I started talking during

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Speaker 2: the intense period of the pandemic, and we realized that

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Speaker 2: there just wasn't a space for like not just factual information,

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Speaker 2: but like processing everything that was happening and thinking about

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Speaker 2: how the frameworks that we bring to all this crazy

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Speaker 2: shit would help us understand and articulate it. And so,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, our conversation has felt like really honest,

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Speaker 2: because it's in part like, hey, why isn't the information

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Speaker 2: getting out, which is going to be even more important

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Speaker 2: as we destroy our information networks in society, But also

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Speaker 2: it's just felt very super validating in that way. And

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Speaker 2: so for me, what's stood out more than anything is

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Speaker 2: the emotional resonance of having these conversations and how important

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Speaker 2: that's been, and it's felt really honest, honestly, and so

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Speaker 2: for me that's I'm very very grateful. It's actually been

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Speaker 2: very personally meaning for me. Also.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting that you bring up the

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Speaker 1: word honest, because as we're reflecting and still unpacking what

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Speaker 1: has happened over the last couple of weeks since the

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Speaker 1: election and as we move into this transitional period of

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Speaker 1: the Trump regime, one of the things that keep coming

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Speaker 1: up with regard to people's distrust in corporate mainstream media

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Speaker 1: is the fact that they don't believe that they're being

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Speaker 1: told the truth. That one of the reasons why Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: of all people, has resonated is because he bucks systems

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Speaker 1: and people feel like he is authentic. And I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you about like our feelings around authenticity and

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Speaker 1: actual authenticity, because we all know, for instance, that Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is an habitual liar. We all know that mainstream

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Speaker 1: corporate media gave up on fact checking him many years ago.

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Speaker 1: But the fact is is that people still feel like

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Speaker 1: the media is lying to them, but Donald Trump is

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Speaker 1: telling them the truth. Can you help us understand why

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Speaker 1: that is?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's an olviator saying one man's authenticity is another

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Speaker 2: man's potato pancake. No, I just made that up.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a lot. No.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a trick of a salesman, which is

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Speaker 2: to make people feel like they're being heard and then

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Speaker 2: twist that toward whatever. I mean, that's what politicians do,

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Speaker 2: and for whatever reason, Trump is exceptionally good at that, right.

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Speaker 2: In other words, people feel heard when he's in a rally.

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Speaker 2: People feel like he's connecting and talking to them. And

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Speaker 2: it's a moment now where people want they want their

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Speaker 2: anger reflected, they want their frustration reflected. You know, you

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Speaker 2: and I talked right when Kamala Harris became the nominee

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Speaker 2: about whether joy was going to sell, whether happiness was

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Speaker 2: to sumble, and I said at the time, I hope

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Speaker 2: that's the case, but I don't think it's going to

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Speaker 2: be the case, just because we're not. In a moment.

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Speaker 2: People want their anger or frustrations acknowledged. And Trump, for

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Speaker 2: all of his messed upness, is incredibly good at that. Right.

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Speaker 2: He's incredibly good at like feeling the room. It's not

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Speaker 2: like he stands for one thing. He can feel a

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Speaker 2: room and tell people what they want to hear. There

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Speaker 2: are democratic politicians who do that. So if we were

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Speaker 2: going to play that game, Kambala Harris would not have

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Speaker 2: been our nominee. You know, she's somebody who sounds like

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Speaker 2: an insider, and so, you know, everything else aside, it

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Speaker 2: was an election of two very different affects in a way.

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Speaker 2: So so I mean, I guess the question is is

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Speaker 2: that going to be the case whenever we have our

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Speaker 2: next election in twenty seven years or something like that.

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Speaker 2: But I can't say that Trump is very good at mirroring,

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Speaker 2: amplifying people's anger and rage and then twisting at prison thing,

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Speaker 2: which is again what good salespeople do. And given that

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Speaker 2: that was the tone of this moment, everything else aside,

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Speaker 2: Kamal Hairs was not that right. She was somebody who

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Speaker 2: sounds like an institutional luster or something like that. So

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Speaker 2: there are two very different frameworks.

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Speaker 1: My thing is that because here's what Democrats are really

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Speaker 1: good at and what they're doing right now, which is

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Speaker 1: just a ton of finger pointing, a ton of finger pointing,

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Speaker 1: a ton of complaining and just doing the same things

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Speaker 1: over and over again and expecting a different result. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and Maga upended the political norms ten years ago,

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Speaker 1: and we're still grappling with like what that means, understanding

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Speaker 1: what that means as we're getting ready to go now

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Speaker 1: into a new wave that is now going to finish

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Speaker 1: the job that began in twenty seventeen to decimate our institutions,

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Speaker 1: to decimate credibility. And in that time span, it's as

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Speaker 1: if democratic not even as if they haven't learned anything.

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Speaker 1: And so while people are still saying, oh, well, Kamala

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Speaker 1: Harris sounded like an institutionalist, is that because she was coherent?

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Speaker 1: Is that because she showed that she understood how government works?

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Speaker 1: And what people want right now is just to break things.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's what I'm trying to understand. Because if

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Speaker 1: you're talking about this vibe check of somebody ushering in

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Speaker 1: joy and truth versus somebody that says I'm going to

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Speaker 1: break everything and I'm going to make people pay for it,

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Speaker 1: and that being what resonated, I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: would ever combat that, because again, we're trying to operate

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Speaker 1: in a place of fact and information and Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is not.

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Speaker 2: I was on a panel for NPR right before the election,

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Speaker 2: and it was with Rachel bit Kaffer, who was saying

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Speaker 2: we're wasting all our money on positive ads. We should

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Speaker 2: just be doing negative ads all the time, because that's

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Speaker 2: the only way to combat this. And I've thought a

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Speaker 2: lot about this. I mean, you know, that's what you

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Speaker 2: do when you lose. When you lose, you figure out,

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Speaker 2: you know, what the hell how do we not lose again?

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Speaker 2: And so we are quite good at that. But also

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Speaker 2: I do think that there's a post mortem that is

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Speaker 2: important right now, right, I mean, there are different They're

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Speaker 2: just decisions we have to make now about how to

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Speaker 2: go forward. And so I don't think finger pointing is

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't call it finger pointing. I think

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Speaker 2: that there's a post mortem that needs to happen that

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Speaker 2: is instructive about I want to know where we went wrong.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't know. I mean, I guess you're right,

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Speaker 2: like should we have hired should we have just put

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Speaker 2: up somebody? I mean, it's all relative. We lost, So

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Speaker 2: you tell me how do we go forward?

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Speaker 1: I mean I guess my question is, like, well, one,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that we're being honest. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that Democrats are being honest, and I don't think that

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Speaker 1: there is. Again, I think that you need to look

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Speaker 1: at quote unquote failure in a different way. Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: did not receive a mandate. He did not win overwhelmingly.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about like a percentage point. You're talking about

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Speaker 1: a handful of votes literally in a handful of states.

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Speaker 1: And so when you're competing with somebody that is telling

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Speaker 1: you that these people are to blame for your ills,

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Speaker 1: and I'm saying, no, they're not. It's actually the rich.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the message that Kamala Harris had. Her

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Speaker 1: message was We're going to reach across the aisle. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to put a Republican in my cabinet, but here

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Speaker 1: are the ways in which for black men, for Latino men,

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Speaker 1: I can make life better and offer up these different opportunities.

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Speaker 1: I think that people wanted a quick fix, and even

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Speaker 1: if that quick fix is a lie, that's what they

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Speaker 1: went for. And I wonder, though, in hindsight, if Kamala

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Speaker 1: Harris had just hammered home an economic message, which was

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Speaker 1: that the Biden administration didn't have anything to defend. We

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Speaker 1: have the best economy. You just saw. Of course, after

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Speaker 1: the election, Lois thanksgiving prices, Lois cost for dinner, like

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Speaker 1: jobs have returned all of these things. If you had

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Speaker 1: focused solely on that, on a progressive populist message as

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Speaker 1: opposed to linking arms with Republicans, that to me is

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Speaker 1: the only thing the message that should have been hammered

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and that wasn't. And

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Speaker 1: there was still this push to what no longer exists

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Speaker 1: as the center, which kind of made in some ways

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris seem like Republican light.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Again, you know, it's just I mean, I guess

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Speaker 2: the question now is in response to the Democrats go

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Speaker 2: farther left or do they go toward the center?

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is there is no sense so that

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Speaker 1: like that's my argument now, is that like that is

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Speaker 1: a false question to ask because the center doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: So you either continue to follow the extremists over a

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Speaker 1: cliff or you retain and reimagine what it is that

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Speaker 1: the progressive base actually wants.

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Speaker 2: I was reading an interesting article this morning that asked,

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Speaker 2: you know, would higher turnout have helped Kamala Harris? Was

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Speaker 2: this a question of turnout? And it's just funny because

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Speaker 2: it mirrored something that I've been thinking, which is it

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Speaker 2: just really felt like Republicans were playing by different rules

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Speaker 2: than we were for this election, and so there's something

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Speaker 2: about like winning hearts and minds. They were doing something else.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it was, but yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I hope you're right. I'm not gonna I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to push back except to say that I hope you're right.

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Speaker 2: I hope we get a chance to fix this. I

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Speaker 2: hope there's still a system in which we can fix this.

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Speaker 2: But let's see how that plays out.

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Speaker 1: I guess the fact is is that it isn't gonna

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Speaker 1: play out because I have said for the longest time,

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Speaker 1: and I hope to be wrong that I don't think

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Speaker 1: that we actually get another bite at the apple here.

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Speaker 1: Everyone wants to hold their breath and believe that there's

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Speaker 1: going to be an opportunity in mid terms. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to disagree with that statement. I don't think that there's

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Speaker 1: going to be an opportunity with midterms because I don't

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Speaker 1: think that we're having them. And so that being said,

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Speaker 1: if you have an entire now fascist maga movement that

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Speaker 1: has no guardrails, that is completely unleashed, the response to

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Speaker 1: that can't be centrist thinking. And I'm wondering in your

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Speaker 1: mind what it takes then for Democrats to realize that

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Speaker 1: they once again have been chasing the wrong dragon.

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Speaker 2: I mean again, the rules of everything, because of all

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Speaker 2: the dismantling that's about to happen, the rules are going

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Speaker 2: to be totally different. And so I do worry that

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Speaker 2: we have a lot of institutionalists who are still running

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Speaker 2: the party, and I think what we need right now

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Speaker 2: is outside the box people in a way. And so

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Speaker 2: I don't know, because I don't know there's some plan.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when you have somebody at the head of

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Speaker 2: the Department of Education and the FBI and every other

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Speaker 2: organization who's in place to basically destroy that organization as

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Speaker 2: it's been known and remake it, the rules are just

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Speaker 2: going to be totally different. And so I guess I

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Speaker 2: hope we have people who are nimble and force full

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Speaker 2: and bare knuckles enough to combat that. I just think

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Speaker 2: that the rules are different and we have to there's

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Speaker 2: something very responsive about it. So I'm not avoiding that question.

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Speaker 2: It's just we're about to create a new reality here.

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Speaker 2: I mean I feel it most deeply with health, for example.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's kind of where I'm consumed right now,

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Speaker 2: because dismantling all the health infrastructure that Kennedy and those

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Speaker 2: guys are going to do is going to be catastrophic

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Speaker 2: and it's going to create new realities. And so to

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Speaker 2: then say we just need to build things back the

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Speaker 2: way they were is not going to work.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we need to be like everything is

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Speaker 1: going to be dismantled, and to be honest, I'm in

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Speaker 1: a place where I am recognizing that they were never

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Speaker 1: created to work for all people anyway. So while there's

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Speaker 1: going to be a lot of pain and there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of harm that is going to

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Speaker 1: be done, I really wish that Democrats would be in

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Speaker 1: a place of imagination rather than reaction to what it

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Speaker 1: is that Republicans are going to do. Because the fact

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Speaker 1: is is that, like, if we're honest, this incremental shit

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Speaker 1: was not working. It doesn't work. People are still you're

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Speaker 1: talking about healthcare paying astronomical premiums. People are still having

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Speaker 1: to come out of pocket for costs that like the

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Speaker 1: insurance refuses to cover. So there are so many things

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Speaker 1: and for one me, being a person that pays for

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Speaker 1: their health insurance out of pocket, are strapped with so

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Speaker 1: many fucking costs that I'm like, so you get rid

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Speaker 1: of it. Yes, there's going to be a ton of pain,

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Speaker 1: but like, when are democrats ever going to move from

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Speaker 1: a place of creation rather than a place of reaction?

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Speaker 1: And I just don't know. It's still this dismantling is

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Speaker 1: going to be that aha moment.

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Speaker 2: It's just interesting, you know, because the health infrastructure that

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Speaker 2: we have is based on like shared cooperation. You know,

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Speaker 2: vaccines and public health and smoking bands and seat belts,

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Speaker 2: all these things work by people like cooperating. And that's

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Speaker 2: not the world we're about to enter. The world We're

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Speaker 2: about to enter as a very health libertarian moment from

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Speaker 2: a public health perspective, but also a financial perspective, and

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Speaker 2: so on the new show. Let's keep talking about this

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Speaker 2: because I think what health becomes, I think is going

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Speaker 2: to be incredibly, incredibly important, as many of these things are.

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Speaker 2: And I just I guess I agree with you that

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Speaker 2: we need people who are creative and who are setting

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Speaker 2: the agenda, not people who are trying to recreate the

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Speaker 2: past that's that's gone.

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Speaker 1: Because that's where I feel like democrats are right now

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Speaker 1: and where they continue to be, which is why at

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Speaker 1: this stage in my political career. I'm saying that it

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Speaker 1: is time to have real, honest conversations about a viable

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Speaker 1: third party because I do not think that Democrats are

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Speaker 1: here to meet this moment. I think that they are

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Speaker 1: fine with the way that things are and just ticking

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Speaker 1: away at that. And what Donald Trump is offering is

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Speaker 1: to destroy it. And I think that that is why people,

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Speaker 1: you know, the racism, the deep seated racism and misogyny.

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Speaker 1: In addition, I also think people are sitting back and saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this shit still doesn't work. It still

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Speaker 1: doesn't work for me. And so if he's coming in

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Speaker 1: with a sledgehammer, maybe that's what is needed.

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Speaker 2: Well. You know, the risk of a third party, though,

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Speaker 2: in our system, is that you just become a permanent opposition.

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Speaker 2: People always ask me, like, how could people support Trump

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Speaker 2: when he's you know, obviously abcd all these horrible things.

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Speaker 2: But you know, when Obama was president, the Republican Party

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Speaker 2: was in many places being kicked and the proverbial scrotum

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Speaker 2: and Trump came in and said, I said, proverbial, I apologize, yes,

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Speaker 2: And Trump came in and for all of his shit,

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Speaker 2: he said, like, we're going to win here's my model

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Speaker 2: for winning or something like that. And even though it

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Speaker 2: was wrapped in horrible bacon and it was all these

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Speaker 2: things and problematic, but people got addicted to like being

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Speaker 2: on the winning side again. And so you know, it

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Speaker 2: was strong man, maybe fall strong man, all these kind

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Speaker 2: of things, but it was like he was promising retribution

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Speaker 2: and victory and cleaning house and all these kind of things.

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Speaker 2: And so the question will be, is there going to

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Speaker 2: be somebody who emerges on the Democratic side who presents

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Speaker 2: a new model of winning.

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Speaker 1: Ah uh huh, yep, this is the question.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because because let's be honest, if Trump or somebody

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Speaker 2: like Trump had been like a liberal Democrat and said

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Speaker 2: I'm going to kick the crap out of the conservatives

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Speaker 2: and we're going to implement everything we ever dreamed of,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to control the courts, I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of liberals would have followed that person. Yep, you know,

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Speaker 2: given any kind of baggage, because he was basically saying,

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Speaker 2: I want to get you retribution over your enemies, but

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Speaker 2: also I'm going to blow up the system and recast

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Speaker 2: it in a way that we're going to be winning

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Speaker 2: for eons and stuff like that. And so it's crazy

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Speaker 2: that he pulled it off, honestly, But the Democrats need

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Speaker 2: a model of winning, and I just my concern about

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Speaker 2: a third party is that it becomes like another Green

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Speaker 2: Party or even another like Democratic Party or a very

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Speaker 2: far progressive party, something that is always critiquing what's happening.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. What we are facing right now

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Speaker 1: is a new Republican party. They absolutely rebranded, reconfigured, created

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Speaker 1: an entirely different ideology, created an entirely different mode. They

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Speaker 1: did it without quote unquote creating another Republican party. They

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Speaker 1: just deconstructed. And then I don't know what is it, Frankenstein,

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Speaker 1: the old party. And what I'm saying is that, like

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Speaker 1: if it isn't going to be a viable third party,

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Speaker 1: to your point, that just sits in opposition, Democrats do

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Speaker 1: need a new strategy for winning, and they need to

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Speaker 1: reconfigure the Democratic Party as it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I agree, whatever it is. I just I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be like I just always think of

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Speaker 2: the cover of the Bernie Sanders book, where like Bernie

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Speaker 2: is like this, It's just like, yeah, we're going to

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Speaker 2: be protesting against authority forever. And I'd rather have somebody

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Speaker 2: like Trump who's like, actually, here's what we can do

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Speaker 2: to win in this new system.

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Speaker 1: So interesting. All right, well, we'll leave it there today.

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Speaker 1: But that is the what does a new strategy for

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Speaker 1: winning look like for the Democratic Party?

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Speaker 2: Which is not how we thought about That's how they've

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Speaker 2: thought about it. We thought about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, thank you, my friend. We will leave

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Speaker 1: it there today and pick up next week. Always appreciate you.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke

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Speaker 1: af AS, always, power to the people and to all

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Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.