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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. An MTG's rally for Trump didn't last

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Speaker 1: ten minutes. What a show? A show of shows we

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Speaker 1: have today? Representative Rocana talks tech regulation, everyone's favorite, but

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Speaker 1: we make it fun. Then we'll talk to the Washington

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Speaker 1: Post Michael Shearer about the dark money political group that

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Speaker 1: could guarantee Donald Trump's reelection. But first we have Washington

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Speaker 1: Post contributing columnist, close personal friend, the one the only,

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Speaker 1: George Conway. Welcome back to Fast Politics. George Conway. I'm Molly.

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Speaker 1: Anything happens today, nothing, pretty much nothing. Trump's lawyers, good lawyers,

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Speaker 1: bad lawyers discuss I think Michellis seems like she's relatively

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Speaker 1: smart because she knew to put it into that little

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Speaker 1: fiasco they had outside the courthouse. Takapine, he shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: allowed anywhere near microphone. I don't know how he's going

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Speaker 1: to try Jean Carroll's case in two or three weeks,

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Speaker 1: because he basically has a domain coherent to say. And

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Speaker 1: I couldn't really get a feel for a new guy

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Speaker 1: who didn't really seem to have a presence of command

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Speaker 1: of the situation. But that may have been because there

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Speaker 1: was so much noise in the very beginning when he

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Speaker 1: was speaking. But it was sort of a very strange

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Speaker 1: I thought, a very strange press conference with the held

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Speaker 1: where you had the new lead guy, nobody could hear him,

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Speaker 1: and then you had Tacopina trying to assert himself as

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Speaker 1: the alpha male, and then Michelle is basically shutting them

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Speaker 1: both down and saying, thank you very much, let's go.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was my impression of it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it struck you as any different, but it

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Speaker 1: just it was a very very odd and I don't

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Speaker 1: think they did a very good job helping their client there. Well,

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Speaker 1: why are they even having a press conference? Because Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump is watching TV on the way back to Laguardi

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Speaker 1: at airport and he expects his lawyers to say some

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Speaker 1: crazy stuff that will make him feel better or else.

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Speaker 1: He's going to get on the phone as soon as

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Speaker 1: he gets on the seven to fifty seven and he's

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Speaker 1: going to start yelling at somebody, right, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's not careful legal analysis no where. Since you are

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Speaker 1: a lawyer who can do careful legal analysis. Let's just

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Speaker 1: talk for a minute about this case. There are other

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Speaker 1: cases coming down the pike that are probably stronger cases.

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Speaker 1: I don't think this case is a case. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think people are saying that's it. Oh, that's all

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Speaker 1: I have. Oh it's right, he don't beat this rapid's like.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: true because first all, he did it, he's gilby the charges.

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Speaker 1: Have we rub the indictment in the statement of facts,

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Speaker 1: I think they're legally sufficient. I mean, the criticism you

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Speaker 1: can make of the cases, this case should have been

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Speaker 1: bought years ago, right, it should have been brought by

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Speaker 1: the Feds back in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't have the expectations that other people had. For

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, you know, this is this case

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Speaker 1: is you know this case. The next proceeding in this

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Speaker 1: case is going to be in December. I gather, according

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Speaker 1: to the reporting, and you know, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: so much this will be so far in the rearview

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Speaker 1: mirror by then, it's not going to be We're going

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Speaker 1: to forget about this case for a while. We're going

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Speaker 1: to forget about this case within a couple of weeks,

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Speaker 1: because we'll talk to us about the Gene Carroll trial.

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Speaker 1: Because you have some insight there, well, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I have any particular insight. I mean

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Speaker 1: I did help or find a lawyer at some party,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think this case is

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Speaker 1: I think it's a pass little case. I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's perfectly fine. I think if you're if it's try,

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Speaker 1: he'll probably be convicted. His best chance in this case

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Speaker 1: is to argue that the charges should all be misdemeanors, right,

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Speaker 1: And I don't think he's going to win on that.

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Speaker 1: But he could win on that, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: he's gonna win cleanly on it. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: he really wants to face a jury of manhattanites in

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Speaker 1: this case. But on the other hand, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is, it's like we've got

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Speaker 1: some more serious things coming up, which will be the

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Speaker 1: Georgia case as much is very serious. Gene Carroll case

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Speaker 1: is going to be quite a show. And he's dead

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Speaker 1: to right on, dead to rights as as far as

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Speaker 1: I can tell. On on the Marlague of Marlogue, of documents. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Marlago documents case is a real I mean there

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Speaker 1: can be obstruction there. I mean, there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that could happen there. Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: you know, I've been saying for months that it's the

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Speaker 1: shortest distance between and Orange Jumption. So basically, he came in,

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Speaker 1: he said he was not guilty. It took an hour,

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Speaker 1: then they got him out. Do we think there was

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Speaker 1: a We think there wasn't a mug shot. There wasn't

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Speaker 1: many of the normal things we think of when people

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Speaker 1: getting booked. I you know, I don't know, having never

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Speaker 1: attended a book, and I can't speak to that. But

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Speaker 1: they didn't take a much shot, I gather, and they

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Speaker 1: didn't do fingerprints, because we should be so lucky that

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Speaker 1: we can't find all the trump I mean, it's funny

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Speaker 1: because reading this document, one of the things that I'm

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Speaker 1: struck by is just how many of the stories from

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Speaker 1: the first season come back. Oh look, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: always the Love Child, right, you know, it's an HBO special.

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Speaker 1: You know, they wait five seasons and you come back

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Speaker 1: and somebody resurfaces from season one, you know, and the

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Speaker 1: Sopranos was somebody who gets released from prison after four

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Speaker 1: seasons away, So you know, I mean, that's that's just

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Speaker 1: what happens. And then if that's life in the Trump land,

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Speaker 1: we haven't seen the evidence. We've just seen what's in

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Speaker 1: this document, but there's no evidence to see. And in

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Speaker 1: the following said, it's like these documents say what they say,

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Speaker 1: they were false. Right. Jim Trusty was on CNN with

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Speaker 1: Jake Tapper attacking cohen credibility. But cohen credibility isn't really

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Speaker 1: an issue. I mean, it's the issue is did this

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Speaker 1: all happen? Were these checks written? And they were, and

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Speaker 1: he signed some of them. I don't see how he's

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Speaker 1: not convicted of something, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony,

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Speaker 1: is going to be There are a couple of interesting

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Speaker 1: issues that how you apply the state law here and

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Speaker 1: what it takes to bump up a misdemeanor to a felony.

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Speaker 1: And I could argue both sides of that. I think

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Speaker 1: the DA has the better of it. Can you give

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Speaker 1: us just a sort of a clue on what it

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Speaker 1: is that changes a misdemeanor to a felony? Yeah, here,

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Speaker 1: here's what it is. I mean, basically, it's a misdemeanor

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Speaker 1: the falsified books and records in the state of the

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Speaker 1: marketing Okay, corporate books and records. But it can be

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Speaker 1: a felony if you're committing and doing the falsification with

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Speaker 1: the intense to commit fraud or with the intense to

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Speaker 1: commit another crime. So the question is, all right, what's

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Speaker 1: the other crime in order for it to become a

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Speaker 1: felony and the other crime? And Drag explain at his

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Speaker 1: press conference and the indictment put the indictment less than

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Speaker 1: clear about it. There's potential pro federal Leshing Campaign Act

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Speaker 1: violation and violation of the contribution limits. There is also

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Speaker 1: a state campaign finance law which prohibits the use of

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Speaker 1: prohibits promoting the candidacy to relate Leans. And then there's

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Speaker 1: also there was also some tax angle that he described

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Speaker 1: where I think it was there was a they believe

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Speaker 1: it was a scheme to falsely report pain the payment

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Speaker 1: story the angle payment says income to Michael Collin even

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Speaker 1: though it wasn't, although they gross them up for it.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason why one of those won't stick, and

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Speaker 1: I think they probably will one one or those three

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Speaker 1: possibilities will stick. But we'll see. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: he could, he could, maybe he'll maybe he'll get convicted

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Speaker 1: and and it'll get sent reverse to a mistomean or

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Speaker 1: on appeal. But I don't see how they don't prove

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Speaker 1: the elements of these events as a misdemeanor at a

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Speaker 1: minimum and probably fold. We see Don Junior is really

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Speaker 1: leaning in on pumping up a lot of information about

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Speaker 1: the judge's daughter. I mean, does the jude Is there

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Speaker 1: any legal mechanism to protect this judge's daughter from this

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Speaker 1: sort of right wing I mean, some of these people

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Speaker 1: are theoretically dangerous right right. And the defendant obviously can't

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Speaker 1: be subjective restraint because he's the defendant. He didn't get

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Speaker 1: a gag order, which I think is kind of shocking.

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Speaker 1: I think the judge was smart not to do it

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Speaker 1: on day one. Okay, I think he was smart the

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Speaker 1: great or what he probably did or what it sound

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Speaker 1: like he did, we'll see the transcript, I'm shore, but

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Speaker 1: what he did was he cautioned both sides exercise restraint

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Speaker 1: in their public statements about the case. Yeah, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure Trump will do that. He's known for his restraint. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we'll see how that goes. Don Junior's post about the

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Speaker 1: daughter of the judge really that was sick. What was sick?

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Speaker 1: And in Shane and a jurisdiction I think that the

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Speaker 1: court might have over him, could be that he you know,

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Speaker 1: he's a potential witness. He signed some of those checks right, Well,

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Speaker 1: we don't know which it was he or Eric right, No,

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Speaker 1: it was it was Don Junior signed some of themself,

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Speaker 1: at least want of them. Okay, he may be a

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Speaker 1: potential witness. He might be subject that it's a gag

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Speaker 1: order because of that, although he probably might have a

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Speaker 1: first to have to do the analysis. This is how

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Speaker 1: these guys play them. That's that's the thing that's maddening

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Speaker 1: about it is and they have no moral vocompunctions. They

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Speaker 1: will they want to threaten and intimidate people. And the

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Speaker 1: notion that he's posting the photograph social and on Twitter

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Speaker 1: of the judge's daughter is really really good and insane.

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Speaker 1: But this is what they do. This is how they act. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean Trump obviously is delighted by this as a

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Speaker 1: fundraising technique. I mean he's been sending fundraising emails out

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Speaker 1: all day. I don't think he's the life. I think

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Speaker 1: he's horrified. I think he's lost control of the situation,

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Speaker 1: and I think he knows that. I meant, you know,

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Speaker 1: this was this one's the ultimate indignity for him. So far,

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Speaker 1: the indignities are going to get worse for him. I

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Speaker 1: think gets further in, further down the legal process and

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Speaker 1: more charges made against him. He's completely lost control of

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Speaker 1: the situation. I I The symbolic thing to me that

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Speaker 1: I saw was the core officers were leading him into

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Speaker 1: the hallway outside the courtroom and didn't hold the door

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Speaker 1: open and let the door just kind of close in

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Speaker 1: his face. And I kept thinking watching that trunk having

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Speaker 1: to push the door open for himself for the first

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Speaker 1: time he probably who knows how many years, contrasting that

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Speaker 1: with the time that he shoved aside. I think it

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Speaker 1: was the Prime Minister of Montenegro, so we could get

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Speaker 1: it in front of a photograph of tomatoes on it, right, yeah, contrast,

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Speaker 1: So anyway, that was sort of the thing. The thing

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Speaker 1: about that was the impression that I left in the

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Speaker 1: image that I will always carry with me watching this

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Speaker 1: show today. No, I think it's the beginning of the

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Speaker 1: end for what's going to take a while. So what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is kind of what Maggie said all along,

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Speaker 1: which is this idea that in fact, Trump while he

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Speaker 1: is sending out fundraising emails with the fake mug shot,

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Speaker 1: and he is certainly raising money and cashing in. You

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Speaker 1: do truly believe that psychologically she's not doing well with us, No,

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Speaker 1: of course not. There's a problem of all crazy norses,

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Speaker 1: which is and want to be the center of attention.

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Speaker 1: They want everything to revolve around them, but they're terrified

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Speaker 1: of being humiliated and those two urges and they because

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Speaker 1: like we've seen us a thousand times, because he wants

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Speaker 1: to put himself in the middle of everything and he's

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Speaker 1: but he's too stupid to know how to do it,

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Speaker 1: and he ends up doing it in a way that

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Speaker 1: either gets him into trouble or makes or causes him

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Speaker 1: to make a fool out of I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: he's like so many different instances, like his press consiences

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Speaker 1: in COVID, you know, where he pretends to be no

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Speaker 1: everything and makes a complete a jackass out of himself

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Speaker 1: because he's an idiot. That's the conundrum he faces here,

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Speaker 1: Except it's just it's what's at risk for him is

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Speaker 1: not just his reputation and it's the perception that some

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Speaker 1: people have of whether he's intelligent or not, but his

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Speaker 1: liberty is it. And we're going to see that again

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Speaker 1: in each one of these cases where he is charmed

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Speaker 1: and drawing. So now I'm going to ask you one

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Speaker 1: last question, which is like the annoying question that I

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Speaker 1: ask people when I'm really interested and just want to

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Speaker 1: know for my own dification, how do you think this

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Speaker 1: plays out? I mean, do you think that? And again,

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Speaker 1: I know you can't get to the machinations of like

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Speaker 1: does he get found guilty in which cases? But more

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Speaker 1: just the question is like do you think eventually he's

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Speaker 1: like this is enough, I'm gonna or do you think

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Speaker 1: he just fights? You know, he's not going away. He

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Speaker 1: will not go away. He cannot helps himself. This is

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Speaker 1: a death match. I can to struggle to the end

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Speaker 1: for him because it's xpencil for him. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know any way out of it for him.

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Speaker 1: I don't He's not going to throw in the tality,

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Speaker 1: not going to see guilty. He's not going to admit

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Speaker 1: a mistake or error or a crime. He's just going

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Speaker 1: to continue to fight back in the ways that he

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Speaker 1: knows how to fight back, which he is engaging in

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Speaker 1: attacks on the system and the people who are acting

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Speaker 1: actors in the justice system, and attacking the rule of law,

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Speaker 1: and in fighting pencil violence. What he's going to do

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Speaker 1: because he doesn't really have a playbook that works in

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Speaker 1: this situation, because he doesn't know the thoughts and he

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Speaker 1: knows they're the laws. I want to ask you one

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Speaker 1: last question. Does Trump get the nomination? Yes? Is there

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Speaker 1: any Marco Nicki Haley, George Conway. Always a delight, Thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining us. Thank you. Congressman Rocana represents California's

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Speaker 1: seventeenth district. Welcome back to Fast Politics. Congressman Rocanna, Thank you, Molly.

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Speaker 1: Always a pleasure to be on. I always want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you because I think you're fascinating, but I

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Speaker 1: really want to talk to you when the bank runs started.

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Speaker 1: That is your district, Silicon Valley, home of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: great innovation and some other stuff. Talk to me about

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Speaker 1: where we are now with that. I'm glad the administration

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Speaker 1: made the decision to protect all of the depositors. It

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Speaker 1: would have been statastrophic for regional banks if they hadn't

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Speaker 1: done that. I was pushing Seconty yelling, as you may remember,

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Speaker 1: on Face the Nation Sunday morning, they made the decision

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Speaker 1: to finally protect the depositors by Sunday evening. If not,

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Speaker 1: you would have had everyone rushing their money in four

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Speaker 1: banks in this country JP Morgan Chase, Well, it's far

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Speaker 1: agoing Bank of America. And in the past ten years

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Speaker 1: there have been seventy three bank failures that where the

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Speaker 1: FDIC has been involved. In seventy two of those cases,

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Speaker 1: depositors have had all their money. So this is consistent

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Speaker 1: with what we've done over the left ten years. Now.

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Speaker 1: I think what we need to do is make sure

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Speaker 1: that we are taking care of the unninshort accounts and

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Speaker 1: charging a fee for them. Right now, we have about

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Speaker 1: ten trillion dollars in money that is, in short, eight

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Speaker 1: trillion dollars in money that is uninshort in the banking system.

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Speaker 1: I like those unshort account holders to uninsured drivers. They're

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Speaker 1: basically driving with no insurance and all of us bear

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Speaker 1: the risk. I'm working with Republican on a bill to

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Speaker 1: have a mandatory fee on those accounts in mandatory insurance.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back to this for a second,

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Speaker 1: because I think this is important here. I mean, these

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Speaker 1: accounts are uninsured after two hundred and fifty correct, This

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Speaker 1: was the way that it was set up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this wasn't like a personal choice. People have their money

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Speaker 1: in those banks. They know that the money is only

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Speaker 1: insured up to two hundred and fifty thousand, and that

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Speaker 1: it was uninsured beyond that. But you know, if you're

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Speaker 1: a startup or small business and you've got a couple

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Speaker 1: million bucks in that account that you're music for payroll.

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Speaker 1: People didn't just they didn't expect the bank run. And

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Speaker 1: what ends up happening is when these banks end up failing,

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Speaker 1: the FDIC Lending Deposit Fund comes in and guarantees depositors,

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Speaker 1: and that's funded by bank premiums. And what the bank

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Speaker 1: premiums end up going up. But ultimately the users of banks,

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Speaker 1: all of us, pay that cost. And what I'm suggesting

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Speaker 1: is that if you have an account over two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand, you should be required to pay some

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Speaker 1: mandatory bank in shortance fee so that if the bank

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Speaker 1: by some chance goes under, there's a fun to cover

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Speaker 1: the deposit. Right, No, no, exactly, Now, I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you that weekend, Thursday we learned about Silicon Valley Bank.

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Speaker 1: I mean that weekend, did you get so many anxious

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Speaker 1: phone calls? I did? I mean I probably had one

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Speaker 1: hundred texts by Friday afternoon. I sent out an email

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Speaker 1: to people in the valley and I'd take four pm

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Speaker 1: on Friday, and we had six hundred people by seven

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Speaker 1: thirty join a webinar on one email. And it was

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Speaker 1: probably the only person of government communicating with all of

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Speaker 1: these tech entrepreneurs, bcs of folks out in the valley

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Speaker 1: trying to appeal to come. But what I realized that Paul, was,

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Speaker 1: you know, money now is moving at the speed of

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Speaker 1: Twitter or its folks are on social media, and we've

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Speaker 1: got to have government moved fast in a modern economy.

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Speaker 1: Right was this White House? Did you feel like they

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Speaker 1: were open to your suggestions and the suggestions of your colleagues.

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Speaker 1: I do. I thought Steve Chetty in particular, was open.

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Speaker 1: I told Treasury with the respect that, well, Janet Gellen

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Speaker 1: is a far smarter economist than I will ever be.

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Speaker 1: I had to gently contradict her on face the nation

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Speaker 1: when I was asked to respond, and the reason is

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Speaker 1: she was being a bit more hesitant, and I think

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Speaker 1: there was an idea with the FDI s that they

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Speaker 1: should give fifty percent of the deposits back on Monday morning,

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Speaker 1: and that as a matter of economic theory may have

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Speaker 1: been fine, but as a practical matter of what we

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Speaker 1: needed was decisive leader ship to say that the depositors

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Speaker 1: deposits will be protected, to bring calm, make sure there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a regional run of the bank. And I give

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Speaker 1: the administration credit that they got there by Sunday evening

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Speaker 1: before the markets opened, and so they made the decision

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Speaker 1: in time. Now I understand there was a hesitation. No

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Speaker 1: one wants to be seen out as bailing out the banks.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe this was a bailout because the executives

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Speaker 1: and shareholders will go to zero. But you remember what

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Speaker 1: Obama didn't go after the bank executives. That was a

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Speaker 1: real problem, and so I'm sure that that was weighing

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Speaker 1: on the White House's mind. Appropriately, as I said to

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Speaker 1: a number of people at the White House, no one

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Speaker 1: has a greater stake in the success of the American

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Speaker 1: economy and President Biden, and if we had not acted

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Speaker 1: that it would have been potentially catastrophic for the American economy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and likely for democracy too, or possibly because a lot

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Speaker 1: is riding on the Biden reelection. I want to ask you,

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Speaker 1: there have been a lot a chatter that you were

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Speaker 1: going to make an announcement, and in the end you

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Speaker 1: endorsed Representative Barbara Lee. Why did you do that? Of course,

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Speaker 1: I love serving in the House of Representatives for two reasons.

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Speaker 1: I believe representing Silicon Valley is one of the most

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Speaker 1: consequential places, for better or worse, in the world to represent,

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Speaker 1: and that was brought home to me in a few

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Speaker 1: weeks before my announcement with all of the Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: bank crisis. So I get a lot of the interesting,

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Speaker 1: exciting people of this next generation or in the House,

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Speaker 1: Maxwell Frost and Delia Ramis and Summer Lee and just

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Speaker 1: so much energy, and I feel like I can make

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Speaker 1: a contribution in the House and bold progressive innovative policy.

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Speaker 1: In terms of Barbara Lee, I've admired her in my

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Speaker 1: whole adult life, as she's a strong anti war voice

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Speaker 1: of a person already. That's why I endorsed her. So

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Speaker 1: Barbara Lee is most famous for having been the one

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Speaker 1: person to stand up on the Iraq war, and I'm

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Speaker 1: a big fan of hers. Two, I'm going to push

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Speaker 1: back here. She's seventy six, but at young seventy six,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that in a There are some people

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Speaker 1: who age, and there are other people like Niati Pelosi

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Speaker 1: or Barbara Lee who have more energy than members ychiagrists

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Speaker 1: my age. And she's you know, I remember when I

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Speaker 1: a few years ago going with Barbara down to see

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Speaker 1: President Carter, and you know, she rented a car from

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta airport. We went down a plane Georgia and

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Speaker 1: she drove the whole way drove back. I mean, she's

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Speaker 1: she's a silver up and about doing exciting things. If

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Speaker 1: I didn't think she had the energy or the bashion

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Speaker 1: for it, I wouldn't have endorsed her. So now I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you about regulation because this is

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Speaker 1: something near and dear to my heart. We uh so

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Speaker 1: we had this, you know again, these regional banks. We're

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Speaker 1: going to go back to the bank run for a minute,

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Speaker 1: but I'm going to take this somewhere else. To regional

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Speaker 1: banks had less regulation than the larger banks. Part of

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Speaker 1: what we're living through now is we're living through a

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Speaker 1: lot of the Trump deregulation, and that's why we're having

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Speaker 1: all these train derailments, and that's why we're having all

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Speaker 1: these things that could have been avoidable. Talk to me

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Speaker 1: where you are about the bank regulations, the train regulations.

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Speaker 1: And then I'm Benna asking something else about that Silicon

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Speaker 1: Valley Bank was lobbying me and many people to have

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Speaker 1: the deregulation in two eighteen, saying, Row, you don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: It's an entrepreneurial economy. We need latitude. We can't have

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Speaker 1: the same regulations as the people in New York. They

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Speaker 1: don't understand the ballet culture. And I'm very proud that

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Speaker 1: I voted again to what they were recommending about it,

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Speaker 1: uphold dot Frank and I wish everyone had done that.

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Speaker 1: A lot of Democrats did, but a few didn't, and

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Speaker 1: Trump ultimately signed it. Had that legislation been into effect,

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Speaker 1: I think this one never occurred. I mean there would

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Speaker 1: have been stress and liquidity tests. Now some people are

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Speaker 1: saying that the liquidity and stress tests wouldn't have accounted

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Speaker 1: for rapidly rising interest rates, that that's a problem with

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Speaker 1: the test if they didn't. But more than what the

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Speaker 1: test is that this would it would have been a

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Speaker 1: signal to the FED and regulators that you need to

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Speaker 1: monitor and enforce regulations against mid size large banks. Instead,

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Speaker 1: by passing the deregulation, we set a sake sent to

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Speaker 1: signal leave these banks alone. And this was the consequence.

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Speaker 1: You represent Silicon Valley. We are in this moment where

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Speaker 1: AI is EXE is about to sort of explode onto

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Speaker 1: the scene in a big way. Congress has had some

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Speaker 1: trouble regulating technology that I feel like that's the understatement

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Speaker 1: of the year. Talk to me about what you can do,

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Speaker 1: what you think you can do, what you think needs

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Speaker 1: to be done. Whereas its afford to understand what AI is,

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Speaker 1: which is basically looking at large patterns of data, large

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Speaker 1: patterns of language and finding patterns there. But the one

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Speaker 1: thing it can't do is to see if those patterns

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Speaker 1: are actually true they correspond with the external world, or

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Speaker 1: if they correspond with a person's own constitution or aspirations,

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Speaker 1: and so it doesn't replace judgment or human thinking. The

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Speaker 1: challenge is by looking for these patterns, I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: some advantages to it. We want to use these patterns

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Speaker 1: to find a rare cancer, to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: map the human genomes so that we could have cures

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Speaker 1: to figure out how you target a military base without

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Speaker 1: having collateral damage with civilians. But we also have to

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Speaker 1: be careful that there are dangers. If you have large

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Speaker 1: patterns and the patterns end up having falsehoods in them

429
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: and you don't have human verification or a check, then

430
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: you're going to spew more misinformation. What if you have

431
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 1: a bias program that spots these patents, it starts making decisions,

432
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: they can have it without a safety check. And so

433
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: what we need is a safety check, and what we

434
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: need is a check on human judgment to avoid the

435
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: negatives of AI. So what does that mean. It means

436
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: we need regulations that say, if you have a complex

437
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 1: AI system, you need to have human judgment. Let me

438
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: give you an example. If we're going to use AI

439
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: in our defense department, I don't trust a machine to

440
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: authorize the strike. I think in general or someone has

441
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 1: to look at that. If we're going to have AI

442
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: do Wikipedia entries, we need to have human editors. Still, right,

443
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: you know we need a human check, we need a

444
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: safety check. But you know, I mean think about AI

445
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: this like let's say you ask chat GPT, how can

446
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: I be happy? What chat GPT will do is it'll

447
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: go and look at every language model, with your demographics,

448
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: with your geography, with your characteristics as a journalist, and

449
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: come up with a more paragraph answer on how you

450
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: can be happy based on when it detected in the language.

451
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: In that circumstance, I don't think anyone in this country

452
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: would say, Okay, that's really how I could be happy.

453
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: I mean if it was that simple, because it's not

454
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: corresponding to really adepth of understanding of who you are,

455
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 1: what your life is, what your goals are, what your

456
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: vulnerabilities are. So it's important to neither exaggerate nor minimize

457
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: what AI is. It's transformative in that it allows us

458
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: to use large patterns and to figure that out quickly.

459
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: So we literally can now figure out someone's human genome

460
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: for one hundred bucks, whereas what Bill Clinton was doing

461
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: it it costs three billion bucks to figure out person's

462
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: at DNAC. That's extraordinary. But we're not going to be

463
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: replacing judgment, empathy, thinking, or an understanding of truths, so

464
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: we still need our philosophy majors. I get that, but

465
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 1: let's just talk about the sort of broader tech regulation.

466
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: For a minute, Elon bought Twitter. Twitter still continues to

467
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: really be a sort of high for journalists and politicians.

468
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: There's no regulation, right, He's not forced to keep people verified.

469
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: The White House said they wouldn't pay for verification. He

470
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: stripped the New York Times. I mean, this is just

471
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: an example, but I want to like get to what

472
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: it's larger implications for real world legislation. There are no

473
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: rules in Twitter or in the Internet at large. I mean,

474
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: he can do whatever he wants. Well, he's disciplined by

475
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: the market and by human demand. I mean, if he'd

476
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: really started doing just things that were totally outrageous, then

477
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: people would presumably migrate off. The problem is whatever they

478
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: were advertising Massiban or something. I mean, it was so boring,

479
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: right right, No, No, it's not great. It's hard to use.

480
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: But I mean I'm just thinking about like the larger

481
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: implications of like there certainly seem like there are regulatory

482
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: things that need to happen when it comes to technology. Absolutely,

483
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: the first thing that needs to happen is protecting people's

484
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: own data and people owning their own data. But in

485
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: a pat from like Twitter, I think one of the

486
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: things that these have it is more competition, so more

487
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: platforms can come so that they're basic anti trust. And then,

488
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: as I told Elon directly, I said, why do you

489
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: want to be the person calling the balls and strikes?

490
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: Why do you want to be the person who's gonna,

491
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: you know, call the automatic strike. You know these days

492
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: where where the baseball the pitchers count runs out. Then

493
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: and you're the one saying, Okay, this is not verified,

494
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: this is verified. This is a tweet that has a problem.

495
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 1: You're you're an innovator, Go focus on getting us to Mars,

496
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: or go focus at starlink or SpaceX. But you know,

497
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: if you're gonna own Twitter, set up an independent board

498
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: that's going to make these these balls and strikes so

499
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: you're not involved in them up. And Jeff Beyz also,

500
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: like it or not, you know, did that with the

501
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: Washington Post. When I write articles of the Washington Post

502
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: criticizes me, I'm not sitting there thinking that Jeff Bezos

503
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: is criticizing me and people. You know, you can have

504
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: some complex theory of how it's corporate on, but as

505
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: a basic matter, there's an independent between the corporate ownership

506
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: and the editorial decision making. And I think social media

507
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 1: platforms would be well served with that, whether that's Zuckerberg

508
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: or Elon Musk, to just have some role of separation

509
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: between those who do the content and those who are

510
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: the capital owners. Right. So, now we have just had

511
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: another mass shooting. The Republicans. I'm sure you saw this

512
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: thing with Jamal Bowman and Thomas Massey, Thomas Massey arm

513
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: all the teachers. Republicans seem to be operating a bad

514
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: faith about the guns. Do you see any light on

515
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: the horizon here? I mean when it's Andy Hookkapen and

516
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: we didn't do anything after six year olds were murdered,

517
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: I said, what is the capacity of this country to react?

518
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: I mean, what would it take? I mean within and

519
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: we've seen to me that was sort of emblematic, one

520
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: of the most horrific things that could happen, and the

521
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: country did nothing. And now it just keeps repeat eating

522
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: in some form. I mean, nine year olds shot to

523
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: death and we're not responding. I guess the question for

524
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: me is just this next generation, the young folks. They

525
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: are growing up with this anxiety and this real need

526
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: to do something, and it's going to take their generation

527
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: getting involved and continuing to hold us to account. But

528
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: it's been a frustration of mine. Seven years in Congress.

529
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: The only thing we did was Chris Murphy's law, the

530
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: bipartisan one, and that's just one step. I mean, we

531
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: still have so much more to do, but it's very polarizing.

532
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I'm you know, I have someone

533
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: who works across the island a lot of things. This

534
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: is just one area where the parties are totally divided. Yeah,

535
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's such a complete nightmare. Rocana, Thank you

536
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: so much. I hope you will come back. I always

537
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Thank you. Michael Shearer is a national political

538
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: reporter at The Washington Post. Welcome too Fast Politics. Michael, Hey,

539
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: how are you? You know you've written two articles that

540
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: have captured my anxiety, that have spun me into a

541
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: whole new level of anxiety. And this whole problem starts

542
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: with a man called Mark Penn. Talk to us about

543
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: no labels. So no labels to the group that's been

544
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: around for more than a decade point and mostly what

545
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: they've been is like a centrist think tank. They helped

546
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: set up something called the Problem Solvers Cocress of the House,

547
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: which is like Republicans and Democrats who want to get

548
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: together and find a person solution that close to Joe mansion,

549
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: and then they later brouched you out into this network

550
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,479
Speaker 1: of packs and helping politicians get elected. But they had

551
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: started the last year something entirely new and different, and

552
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: that is a project that will cost it. They estimate

553
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: seventy million dollars to get on all fifty state ballots

554
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: so that if they want to next year, they can

555
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: run a third party candidate in the presidential election and

556
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: possibly in the down ballot race right Orhouse, on the

557
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: theory that the American people don't want to see a

558
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: matchup between the two people who will be put forward

559
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: by the major party candidates. They've been sort of operating

560
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: on the assumption that Joe Biden and Donald Trump will

561
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: be the nominees. Even though they won't say explicitly that

562
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: Biden is an unacceptable nominee, they're kind of inferring that

563
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: because they think he's too liberal. Right. The whole idea

564
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: is they want less liberal right, or at least if

565
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: they were to keep going on their bullshit, that would

566
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: be it. Right. Yeah, On the assumption that Biden does

567
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: not represent the broad rational, common sense middle ground of

568
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: American politics and has been steered to the left by

569
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: the crazy far left activists. Yeah, Okay, it's not true,

570
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: but yes, continue. So they have put together this group

571
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: of mostly former you know name brandish politicians Joe Lieberman

572
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: of the two thousand Democratic ticket fame, who is now

573
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: an independent, pet McCrory, the former governor and Senate ganging

574
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: Republican side, and North Carolina Larry Hogan, who considered a

575
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: presidential run himself, former governor of Maryland's Republican And they're

576
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: floating this idea that the unthinkable as possible if only,

577
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, Americans try and think outside the two party bucks.

578
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: And they call it an insurance policy, and they say

579
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: it will not be triggered until they have more polling

580
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: and possibly named candidates sometime early next year. They're going

581
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: to have a convention in April in Texas where these

582
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: candidates may win the nomination of No Labels, which is

583
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: not actually a political party, which is legally interesting, and

584
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: then they may run. And they say they're not going

585
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: to do it, if they're going to just be spoilers,

586
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: they're not trying to do the Ralph later get five

587
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: percent thing that happened in two thousand. They're going to

588
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: run only if they can win, and they've done a

589
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: bunch of polling so far. The polling again that's so

590
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: far does not clearly show that they have a path.

591
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: That does show what we kind of all know, which

592
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: is that, you know, the American people are pretty unhappy

593
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: in the direction of the country. The American people are

594
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: economically anxious. I don't trust anything that comes out of

595
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 1: no levels. But let's talk about Mark Penn and Nancy

596
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: explain to us a little bit, our listeners, what the

597
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: history of Mark Penn is. So, Mark Penn came up

598
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: in the Clinton years. He was a poster political consultant

599
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: for from President Clinton, and then when Hillary Clinton ran

600
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: for president in two thousand and eight, he was the

601
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: main consultant to Hillary Clinton, and he made a number

602
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: of big bets about how and why she would win

603
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: the primary against Barack Obama that did not prove to

604
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: be correct, and after that his relationship to Democratic Party

605
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: became more and more rocky. Yeah. So would you say

606
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: that Mark Penn was mad that he sort of had

607
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: a falling out with Hillary Clinton? Yeah. I think it

608
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: was broader than just Hillary Clinton. I think it was

609
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: like there was a falling out within that campaign. Losing

610
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: campaign stended resolve in acrimony, but so that happened, but

611
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: there was a broader falling out, and Penn started talking

612
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: in the years after that about opening for a third

613
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: party bid. He ended up working for Microsoft for a while.

614
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 1: His wife, Nancy Jacobson, who is the founder and CEO

615
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: of No Labels, sort of took the ball. And initially

616
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: this wasn't a third party effort, right, This was just

617
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: a sort of like, can we get a common sense

618
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: middle ground to American politics and empower the sort of

619
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 1: non wacky part of the electorate, right, And then that

620
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: built over time. Now Nancy's team says Mark Penn has

621
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: absolutely no involvement with No Labels, but we know that's

622
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: not true. It is also true that Mark Penn has

623
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: been echoing the same things publicly that No Labels is saying. Now.

624
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: He's written about it in columns in The Hill and

625
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 1: spoken about it publicly. It's also true that Harris as,

626
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: the polling firm that No Labels uses, is owned by

627
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: a large public company called Stagwell that Mark Penn now runs.

628
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: There are relationships here although No Labels people will push

629
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: back very hard at the idea that, you know, Nancy

630
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: Jacobson couldn't be doing this on her own and that

631
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: she would need her husband's help to come up with

632
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: these ideas. Now, there have been times in the past

633
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: where it's been reported that Penn has helped sort of

634
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: cabits about tweets that No Labels has put out and

635
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I want to ask you about No

636
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: Labels as connection to Targeted Victory. Targeted Victory is owned

637
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: by Stagwell, the same company that owned har Sacks The Polster.

638
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: They also happen to own SKADK, which is the democratic

639
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: firm that Anita Done and a bunch of buying advisors

640
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: worked for. In the past. No Labels has used Targeted Victory,

641
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: which has like digital yeah, I mean it also has

642
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: some very sketchy people who work for it. Target Victory.

643
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: No Target Victory, interestingly, is going to be basically the

644
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: Tim Scott campaign very surely, I think, I mean Jim

645
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: Scott is on his way towards announcing who can always

646
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: pull back, but the whole Like if you I was

647
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: at Nile with Tim Scott a few weeks ago, and

648
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: the whole crew traveling with them, our Targeted Victory people.

649
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: They're definitely signed up for a presidential race of their

650
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if Targeted Victory is still working directly

651
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: with No Labels, although we know that in the Passionate

652
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: ame a vendor. Now I want to ask you about

653
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: this situation. So we have this third party group. They

654
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: have clearly some kind of relationship with Joe Mansion. We

655
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: talk to us about that. I met with him last

656
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: Thursday and I said, well, so it's Joe Mansion all

657
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: of then, And the answer was, what Joe Mansion is

658
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: a friend of this effort of No Labels. We worked

659
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: with them for a long time. It's been reported the

660
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Joe Mansion shows that the Labels Mansion also has a

661
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: sort of stated desire to punish the far right and

662
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: the far left and elevate the center. So they have

663
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: similar ideological approaching, maybe right, I mean that's what they

664
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: say their approaches. I would like not give them the

665
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. I know you need to be

666
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: a stray reporter, but I can have my opinion. But

667
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: Manson did get on the phone with me on Saturday,

668
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: and it said very clearly, not only that he thought

669
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: that twenty twenty four project by No Labels and this

670
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: insurance policy was a great idea for the country and

671
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: for democracy as a way of sort of punishing the extremes,

672
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: but also that he would not rule in or rule

673
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: out appearing on the ticket himself. He's probably not going

674
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: to run percent it again. He could. He's not sort

675
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: of making the moves you would make if he was

676
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 1: going to run percent again. It's a very tough state

677
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: for him to win again. He said, it'll make a

678
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: decision by the end of the year. And he also

679
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: said by the end of the year he'll make a

680
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: decision about whether to run for something else, like maybe president.

681
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't know who that ticket is for, but I

682
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: know who it can hurt. So let me ask you.

683
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: There's another thing happening when No Labels is they're working

684
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: really hard to get on the ballot in a state

685
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: where one of their favorite politicians is running for reelection.

686
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 1: Talk to us about that. Trying to get on all

687
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: fifty ballot, all fifty states. But one of the early

688
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: ones they did do was Arizona. They collected the signatures

689
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: they needed, they delivered the signatures to the Democratic Secretary

690
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: of State Rfantes. He said, you got it, these are

691
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: the right signatures. You're gonna be able to be on

692
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: the ballot. And last week the Arizona Democratic Party filed

693
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: suit saying that the Secretary of State aired and accepting

694
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: those signatures. Now, the concern among Democrats is twofold one.

695
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: Arizona is a swing state in the presidential race, so

696
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 1: if say Joe Mansion's on the ticket, it could hurt

697
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: Biden Trump or Republican acts can actually win the electoral

698
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: votes in mid state. But also Christian Cinema, the formerly

699
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: Democratic senator who's now an independent, has not said whether

700
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: she's going to run for reelection again, and it's possible

701
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: we have a three way race in that state. And

702
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 1: now if we have a three way race, presumably Cinema

703
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: would have a place to a way to appear on

704
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: the ballot pretty easily by getting no labels to give

705
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: her their ballot one. Do Democrats have a case? So

706
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: the case they may I'm not a lawyer. I don't

707
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: know the answer to that, but I can explain what

708
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: the case is. The case they make is that you

709
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: need to collect a very large amount of signatures, and

710
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: so no labels collected something like forty thousand sigatures, and

711
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: the state statute says when the signatures are turned on

712
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: in they have to come with affidavits from electors that

713
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: this party, this new party is going to use and

714
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: basically who the party is, like the board of directors

715
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: of the party, and the affidavits have to say that

716
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 1: the signatures are right and proper and real. The affidavits

717
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: were submitted, but the signature on the affid davids came

718
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 1: before all the signatures were collected. Oh so that's kind

719
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: of scatch. That's the case they're making that it was

720
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: sort of a process error here, and that since the

721
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: electors could not have sworn to the validity of the

722
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: signatures since they were all collected, the affidavits aren't true,

723
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: they're false. And if the affidavits are false, then the

724
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: law has not been followed and this party cannot be

725
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: on the ballot. Do you think it'll work, like, I

726
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: honestly don't know. There's a lot of ways I could

727
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: hypothetically say, a judge could try and splice that. The

728
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: other fact is that the signatures have been checked partially

729
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: and they're okay. It's not like the signatures are bad.

730
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: It's this process error, so I don't know the answer

731
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: of how it goes. I think the way to look

732
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: about lawsuits, though, is that this is sort of the

733
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: opening bell of a much broader war that is getting

734
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: started now, in which the Democrats are going to come

735
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: after no labels and every return. I also don't rule

736
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: out I know the Republican Party and some of its

737
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: consultants have been looking at this too right now. The

738
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: sense I get from talking to people over there is

739
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: then they don't see this as believe. They think it's

740
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: probably hurts Democrats more than Republicans, at least where they've looked,

741
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: but they have not ruled out the possibility that put

742
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: their party ballot could hurt them. So could you could

743
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: foresee in the coming months, maybe in a different state,

744
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: depending on who science the signature ballots and what the

745
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 1: dynamics of the state are, the Republicans will push back

746
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: against this. But that said, theles is very well funded,

747
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: and signature gathering is basically a math equay evolving money

748
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: on one end and signature is coming out the other end.

749
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: You just get enough people to collect the signature, he'll

750
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 1: eventually get their signatures these sort of challenges meaning slow

751
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: things down, But I doubt they can disrupt the whole project.

752
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: Why are they so well funded? Who gives money to

753
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: No Labels? Wouldn't we all like to know? Well, we

754
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: know a little bit Republican Nelson valves the signature gathering

755
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: effort of No Labels is being funded through a nonprofit

756
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: group that does not disclose its donors ergo dark money. Yeah,

757
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: there are other political operations of No Labels, the stuff

758
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: which I referenced before, that where they fund candidates they

759
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: like that have been involved donations from named donors, and

760
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: a number of those donors you know those donors include

761
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: long time Republican donors. I mean, I think that clearly

762
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: No Labels appeals to a type of Republicans Wall Street,

763
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, low regulation, modern tax cuts for billionaires, but

764
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 1: also not social warrior kind of like chamber of commerce,

765
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: seeing type well healed person. And so presumably the donors

766
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: to this effort are the same as the donors to

767
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: what has been disclosed to those packs, but we don't know.

768
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: When I asked Nancy Jacobson why she's not disclosing the donors,

769
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 1: she said she wants to shield them from the hate

770
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: that comes. Oh Jesus Christ, what a fucking baby. If

771
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: re electing Donald Trump is wrong, she doesn't want to

772
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: be right. So dark money donors, but certainly a fair

773
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: number of Republicans that we know now some Palets, etc.

774
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: Have given in the past, and also everyone's favorite union

775
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: buster Starbucks chief right in twenty eighteen. Maybe he didn't.

776
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,319
Speaker 1: I don't know that. I mean, I think he's an

777
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: interesting one to bring up, Howard Charles because he came

778
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: into like the theory of the case is that this

779
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: is realistic and doable. It can be done right. You

780
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: can get thirty six thirty eight percent of the country

781
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: to vote for somebody who's not a Democrat or Republican.

782
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: If you remember four years ago around this time, Howard

783
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: Schultz was like on a book tour of sorts, yeah,

784
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: trying to drop up support. And after he did a

785
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: sixty minutes special and the whole premise of it was, look,

786
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: forty percent of America identifies as independent, so we just

787
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: have to go tell them they've got a candidate. Now

788
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: it will win. And what he found out very quickly

789
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: is telling a pritical scientists have done and posters have

790
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: gone for a long time. But when you call yourself

791
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: independent doesn't mean you're like almost all of those people

792
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: who call themselves independent behave almost identically two Democrats or Republicans,

793
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: and the pure independent portion of the electorate that's somewhere

794
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: between I don't know, five and ten percent, depending on

795
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: who you talk to and how you ask the question. Yeah,

796
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: really quite disturbing and also worrying. I appreciate you coming on.

797
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: I hope they'll come back. Yeah, I looked to thank

798
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: you for having Jesse Jannon Molly jung Fast. There's fuckery

799
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 1: about in Florida. Who would have thunk that state could

800
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: deliver it. Two very authoritarian things happened in two very

801
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: authoritarian goop state houses, and while they don't involve Donald Trump,

802
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: they are still extremely relevant. One of them was there

803
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: was a protest of the states very Florida's extremely draconian

804
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: anti choice laws, and during that protest, Nicky Freed, who

805
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: was the agg chair and recently ran for governor, was arrested,

806
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: arrested for peacefully protesting, which technically we're not supposed to

807
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: be arrested for peacefully protesting. And then in the state

808
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 1: of Tennessee, which has had a lot of protests because

809
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: they just recently had a school shooting. The Republicans took

810
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: steps to expel these three democratic lawmakers because of using

811
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: the protests as the excuse. These are both ways in

812
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: which small ways in which these Republican leaning authoritarian, curious

813
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: state government is trying to hurt the few Democrats in

814
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: legislature in these states. So they are are many moments

815
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: of fakery. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

816
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to your the

817
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

818
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

819
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks

820
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: for listening.