1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: A sixteen year old girl getting ready for the big 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: high school dance seemingly vanishes into thin air. What happens 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: to Pamela? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 2: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: Series SEXE one eleven. First of all, take a listen 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: to our friends at crime Online. 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 3: Pamela Conyers, the eldest of three siblings, spent the night 9 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 3: of October sixteenth in typical teenager fashion. She went to 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 3: the Friday night homecoming bonfire and pep rally at Glenn 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 3: Burnie High School. She headed home afterwards, and her mom 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: gave her five dollars in the keys to the family 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: car and Dodge Monico. Conyers headed to the Herrendel Mall 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 3: in Glenn Bernie. It's only a three minute drive from 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,319 Speaker 3: the high school to the mall. Conyers wanted to buy 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 3: a bottle of shoe dye to match the dress that 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: she planned to wear to the school dance the next evening. 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 4: Okay, let me understand this. 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: Joining me right now is crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: Dave mac so. This young girl is sixteen years old 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 2: and her parents give her gas money and the keys 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 2: to the family car, the Monaco to go to the 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: local mall. 24 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 4: Is that right to get shoe die? 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 5: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. We're talking a couple of like 26 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 5: a three or four minute drive away. 27 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 4: It's not a long way away just to get shoe die. 28 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 4: That's it correct. So she should have been right back. 29 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 5: Yeah, and they expected her right back. 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: So okay, it's that Friday night and they have a 31 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: big bonfire getting ready for the dance, which I guess 32 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: is on Saturday. They have the pep rally in the 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: high school gym. She goes home after school and then 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: goes to the mall. Where is Glenn Bernie. 35 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 5: It is in ann Arundel County, Maryland. 36 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 4: So tell me about that. 37 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: Is at metropolitan there's a high population or is this suburban? 38 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 4: Is it rural? What is it? 39 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 5: It's a rural area, but it's building, Nancy, and that 40 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 5: actually comes into play in this whole story. Anna Rendel 41 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 5: County was a fairly rural county, but it was in transition. 42 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 5: There was a lot of building going on. There was 43 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 5: a major highway construction going on in the area at 44 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 5: the time. It was an area that was again going 45 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 5: from rural to more cosmopolitan at the time. 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: Okay, Sharyl McCollum is joining me, Director of the Cold 47 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: Case Research Institute. You can find her at Coldcasecris dot org. 48 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 2: And she's a star of a brand new hit podcast, 49 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum explain why that is so important 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: that we get the lay of the land. 51 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 6: You've got to understand the crime scene to truly understand 52 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 6: the perpetrator. It is critical that we know that because again, 53 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 6: whoever might have taken her, whoever might have harmed her, 54 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 6: picked that location, so they take it for a reason. 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 6: So you've got to understand it. You've got to walk it, 56 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 6: you've got to breathe it, you've got to touch it. 57 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 6: That way, you can get a little bit of a 58 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 6: window into who this person might have been it might 59 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 6: have taken her. 60 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 4: You know. 61 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: Doctor Angie Arnold joining me, renowned psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction. 62 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: You can find her at Angela Arnold MD dot com. 63 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 2: Doctor Angie, this is just reminding me of when I 64 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: worked at the Macon Mall. I think I got my 65 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: job in the tenth or eleventh grade, and I would 66 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 2: think nothing about parking in this vast parking lot, which 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: just was the big thing for making we never had 68 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: a mall that size before and walking in and out. 69 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: And of course I was working at CYRS Roebuck and 70 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 2: there's a lot of disastrous stories about me working there 71 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: in the lawnmower department, the tool department, the candy department, 72 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: where I ate everything that I earned. But that said, 73 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: you know, when you're young, at sixteen, you don't think 74 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: anything can happen to you. You pull into the first 75 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: part he's bought you can find, and race in and 76 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: never look back. 77 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 7: That's right, I know, because Nancy, if nothing ever has 78 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 7: happened to you, then why would you think that something 79 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 7: was going to happen to you? And that's what people 80 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 7: live them. We can't all walk around every day living 81 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 7: in fear that something's going to happen to us. So 82 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 7: we protect ourselves from that and we don't walk around 83 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 7: thinking that we're in fear. Especially little sixteen year old 84 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 7: girls that are thinking about buying shoe die for a 85 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 7: dance that they're going to not a care in the world, 86 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 7: and so that made her very vulnerable. 87 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: Take a listen to this. 88 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: The stor clerk confirmed that Kanyer's bought to die. When 89 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: Conyer's did not come home, her parents reported her missing. 90 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: So we know she made it to them all, Cheryl McCollum, 91 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: because the store clerk confirmed she bought the die, but 92 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: then she never made it home. Can you imagine those 93 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 2: hours when the parents say two hours have passed, and 94 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: that I think is when the parents would start noticing 95 00:04:59,160 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: that something had gone. 96 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 6: She was just miles from home, so that means your 97 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 6: timetable is even more narrow than it was before. She 98 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 6: should have been from the mall to home within minutes, 99 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 6: so now to me is even more disconcerning. 100 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: Just minutes away. Take a listen to Lieutenant Jackie Davis. 101 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 8: On October sixteenth, Pam went to do what most teenagers do. 102 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 8: She left to go run an errand at the Herondale Mall. 103 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 8: And if you're familiar with our county at all, the 104 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 8: Harendale Mall is actually only a few miles from here, 105 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 8: right on Ritchie Highway near Aquahart Road. Pam never returned 106 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 8: from running that errand later that evening, her family called 107 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 8: to report her missing. Three days later, on October nineteenth, 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 8: Pam's car was found abandoned on the side of one 109 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 8: hundred in the area we now know as the Waterford 110 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 8: Road overpass. 111 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: Saturday morning, State and County police begin using a helicopter 112 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 3: to search for the girl and the car. Late Monday afternoon, 113 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: a man walking in the woods reported to the police 114 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 3: that he found in dodge in an overgrown field about 115 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 3: one hundred yards off the road. The next morning, an 116 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: intense search of the wooded area surrounding the overgrown and 117 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 3: deserted farm and its buildings began. 118 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: You know, back to you, Cheryl McCollum, that tells me 119 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: a lot, because she's missing and the car has been 120 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: left out in an overgrown field one hundred yards off 121 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,239 Speaker 2: the road. Now, I find it very difficult to believe 122 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: that this young girl who was just going to get 123 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: shoe dye to match her address for the dance, is 124 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: out in the middle of an overgrown field that far 125 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: off the road, and now the car is abandoned, agreed, And. 126 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 6: That would have been in the darker night. So we 127 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 6: certainly don't believe that she would have driven there and 128 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 6: then walked away, you know, in pitch black darkness. That 129 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 6: just doesn't check out. 130 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 2: Now, Wait a minute, wait a minute, I agree it 131 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 2: was in the dark of knight, But why are you 132 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: saying it was in the dark of knight. 133 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 6: At some point she would have been on foot at night. 134 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 6: So she goes to the pep rally after the football game, 135 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 6: then she goes to the mall. 136 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I thought the pep rally, Dave mc I 137 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: thought the pep rally was like the last period of 138 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: school on a Friday. 139 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 5: In the way that this is understanding, they had a 140 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 5: bonfire and pep rally, Oh the bond Okay. 141 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: See, I thought there was a pep rally then the 142 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: bonfire on the school premises. But you're saying the bonfire 143 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: was in the evening. 144 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 9: Yes, that's what that's what we believe. 145 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 4: Okay, now I get it. 146 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: So now she goes to the bonfire in the evening, 147 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: then she goes home, then the parents give her the 148 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: gas money, then she goes to the mall. 149 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: So Cheryl is exactly correct. 150 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 6: And remember, Nay, it's been three days three days until 151 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 6: they found the car. So now we're even more concerned 152 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 6: because she's made contact with no one. 153 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: Guys, just that scenario that Cheryl McCollum has pointed out 154 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: is so true. Why would a young teen girl leave 155 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: her car and then the middle of an overgrown field 156 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: and go out on foot. It doesn't make sense and 157 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: very typically James shell nutt joining me, high profile lawyer 158 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: joining us from the shell Nut Law Firm at shell 159 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: Nut Law Firm dot com. But before he was a 160 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: high profile lawyer, he was on a swat team and 161 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: metro major case for many years. James shell Nut, when 162 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: you're first looking at a case, you say, wow, that 163 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. And right there there should be a 164 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: red flag waving in front of your eyes. 165 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 4: Here's your first clue. Something that doesn't make sense. 166 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 10: Absolutely with outside of the order. If you take the 167 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 10: situation as a whole, the context of the entire situation, 168 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 10: her coming up, missing her car, being found in this 169 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 10: deserted area, all of those are completely inconsistent with what 170 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 10: she set out to do. 171 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: You know, doctor Angie, you were talking about we choose 172 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: to live in a bubble, which we do. You've been 173 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: a crime victim or you're in the crime business like 174 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: many of us are on this panel. It's easier and 175 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: more comfortable to just go through life with blinders on 176 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: and not suspect the person parks next to you in 177 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: the parking garage. Here, it's easier to live in the 178 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: bubble because she's just going down the street. This is 179 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: less than ten minutes from the home. The mall that 180 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: she went to to get the shoe. 181 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 7: Died, so it was her own little bubble. And as 182 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 7: they said, I'm actually very familiar with Anna Arundel County 183 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 7: because my parents used to live there, and it's very 184 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 7: grown up now. There's lots of stuff around a lot 185 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 7: of military people live there because it's close to Annapolis. 186 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 7: I think that people even feel more secure when they're 187 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 7: in an area. So I live in Atlanta and so Nancy, 188 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 7: I live in the middle of the city. We're very 189 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 7: we have a very heightened awareness of what's going on here. 190 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 7: But even a little bit outside of the city, people 191 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 7: don't have the same heightened awareness of the crime that 192 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 7: goes on in Atlanta just a few miles away from them. 193 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 7: So in Arundel County is a suburb, and back then 194 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 7: when this happened, it was it was very rural. So 195 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 7: people do have an People really do have a sense 196 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 7: that things are safe and nothing's going to happen to them, 197 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 7: because typically nothing does happen to them. Typically it is 198 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:50,479 Speaker 7: very safe. 199 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 200 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, this is taking me, uh, taking my 201 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: mind to a story that was our inaugural case when 202 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 2: we started crime stories on Fox Nation. 203 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: And it's the case of Chucky mock Uh. 204 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: It's place in water Robins and just like here, Chucky 205 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: comes in and his mom was washing the dishes and 206 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 2: he goes, hey, mom, can I ride my bike to. 207 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 4: The corner store and get some candy? 208 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: She goes sure, it was like four blocks away as 209 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: the crow flies, and he was killed. And she never 210 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: thought twice about it because it was so close. It 211 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: was right in the neighborhood, and she had that false 212 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 2: sense of security. 213 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 6: Well, it was also in the neighborhood. But even when 214 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 6: he went to the store, several people that he knew 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 6: saw him. He spoke to friends, he spoke to parents 216 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 6: of friends. Lots of people saw him because they were 217 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 6: running errands, or they rid the store, or they read 218 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 6: a red light. So even though she wasn't visibly with him, 219 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 6: he met people that he knew and could trust all 220 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 6: along the way. 221 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, same thing here with the clerk says, yeah, she 222 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: was here, she bought her She Diane left guys, take 223 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: us in a chief. 224 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 11: Amml Awad Pamela was a sixteen year old an Toronto 225 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 11: County resident. She just attended the glen Burnie High School 226 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 11: home coming bonfire. 227 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: And pep Rowley. 228 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 11: She was quite simply doing what most sixteen year old 229 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 11: high school students did. She was living her life, creating 230 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 11: memories and spending precious moments with our family and friends, 231 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 11: simply celebrating and enjoying the essence of her teen years. 232 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: Gosh, and I remember that that would be the big 233 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: thing when you would go to your prom or your 234 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: homecoming dance. 235 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 4: And here she is, which many of us on this poe. 236 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: I'm done before dying your shoes to match your address, 237 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, how many times did you die your shoes 238 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: for all the weddings you've attended? 239 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 6: Honey, I got four sisters, so at least four that 240 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 6: I could absolutely tell you happened. But can I point 241 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 6: out one more thing about her day? When she was 242 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 6: at the bonfire, she was again surrounded by friends and 243 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 6: teachers and coaches. Whenever we had our bonfires, always the 244 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 6: coaches were on hand to put the fire out all 245 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 6: the kids left, so she was surrounded by people that 246 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 6: cared about her and that she knew well. 247 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: In addition to them, police were on it. At the 248 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: get go take a listen to Dave mac. 249 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 3: Four detectives were assigned to the family Conyer's case full time. 250 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: More than two hundred leads were checked out. Twenty five 251 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: suspects were picked up, interrogated, and then released after their 252 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 3: alibis checked out. Within a month of Conyer's death, detectives 253 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: had logged about nine hundred man hours looking for the killer. Clothing, dirt, 254 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: and soil samples banking from the car were sent to 255 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 3: the FBI Crime Lab in Washington for analysis. 256 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: That is a lot of manpower, James shell Nutt, Well. 257 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 10: It takes a lot of manpower, you know, you think 258 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 10: about it. Now, we can track cell phones, you know, 259 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 10: you can even pinpoint, you know, the IP addresses of 260 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 10: cell phones that are in a certain geographic layer at 261 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 10: any point in time. You know, you have all these 262 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 10: traffic cameras. So many tools have progressed for law enforcement 263 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 10: a lot. 264 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: And I mean look at this clothing, dirt, and soil 265 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: samples that came from her car sent to the FBI 266 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: Crime Lab in Quantico for analysis. They're really doing everything 267 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: they can think of. Cheryl McCallum, I mean what is 268 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: involved and very simply getting the soil samples from the 269 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: floor mats, that. 270 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 6: Would be one of those clues that would be a 271 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 6: money tree if it came back to something really unusual. 272 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 6: For example, let's say somebody had been near a farm 273 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 6: versus a red clay road. The dirt underneath the car 274 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 6: versus the dirt on the inside of the car may 275 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 6: tell you they got out at a certain place, not 276 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 6: where that car was found, but earlier in the day 277 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 6: they were somewhere different, and that would give them other 278 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 6: places to possibly search for her or to ask for people. Hey, 279 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 6: did you see anything unusual? Did you see this car, 280 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 6: you know, earlier in the day in a place that 281 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 6: it shouldn't have been. 282 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: And when we hear twenty five suspects very quickly picked 283 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: up and interrogated released on alibi, I can tell you 284 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: who they were right now, her date to the dance 285 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: the next night, whoever she was hanging out with at the. 286 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 4: Bonfire in the pep rally, her dad probably. 287 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I've told you I'm sure that when I 288 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: was speaking to Phil the Toronto that's Karinavitronto's dad, Karina 289 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: the Long Island jogger. 290 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 4: She and her dad were supposed to go on a 291 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 4: jog together. 292 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: He was down in the back, so she went without 293 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: him and she was attacked and murdered on that jog. 294 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: At her funeral, they take Phil the Toronto out to 295 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: get his DNA. Of course he wasn't involved, but he's 296 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: the dad who was supposed to go on the jock. 297 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 4: He found her body, so they took his DNA. 298 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: So I'm sure her date, a potential date, her current boyfriend, 299 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: maybe an ex boyfriend. Maybe teachers, male teachers at the school. 300 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: That right there, I'm wrecking up. I mean, what about it, Cheryl? 301 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: Twenty five people suspects. 302 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 6: Absolutely, and then then you have your usual suspects in town. 303 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 6: Maybe somebody that has a past of hurting people. You've 304 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 6: got maybe somebody that a student said, hey, this guy 305 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 6: had a crush owner, but she was dating somebody else. 306 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 6: That that net gets tossed pretty wide pretty quick. 307 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: Registered sex offenders, neighbors, absolute teacher, everybody, if they're a man, 308 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 2: basically they're going to be picked up right correct. 309 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 6: And that's something again they can go through very quickly. 310 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 6: People are going to have alibis. People are going to 311 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 6: be you know, going to second jobs, you know, being 312 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 6: seen at dinners, you know, staying after the bonfire and 313 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 6: talking to other teachers. So again they were able to 314 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 6: get through some of these people and clear them back. 315 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: What do we know about her, Pam, take a listen 316 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: to our friends at Unsolved Murders. 317 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 4: Do you know what her personality was like? What she 318 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 4: like anything like that? 319 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 12: Yeah, from why I've heard it, she was just really 320 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 12: involved in a lot of different things. When I was 321 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 12: in high school, Dad that I reminded him of her, 322 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 12: because I did for singing and volunteering and clubs and 323 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 12: like just hands in a lot of different groups and 324 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 12: knew a lot of people, and everybody really liked her. 325 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 6: Here. 326 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 12: She was like a popular kid, and she was older. 327 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 12: You know, she was in high school. He was still 328 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 12: in middle school, but she was still he got from 329 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 12: a like social status, so she was still older in school. 330 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 5: I think she was a cheerleader and. 331 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 6: She did a lot of volunteering. 332 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 12: My daughter she's really involved with volunteering with the church. 333 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: And right there, that widens your group. Whoever was at 334 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: in the PEP rally, if she was a cheerleader. They 335 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 2: would have been watching her volunteer at the church. Okay, 336 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: there goes the youth minister in the pastor they're in 337 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: the net to be questioned as well, would you agree 338 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: or disagree? Cheryl One take us again to our friends 339 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 2: at Unsolved Murders of sister Kathy. 340 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 4: Did she just not return home? And they started wondering 341 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 4: where she was? 342 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 12: Yes, And I think they actually got kind of a 343 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 12: call out earlier because there was that dance and there 344 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 12: were people who were expecting her there. Her parents thought 345 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 12: she didn't come on from the dance, but then her 346 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 12: friends are calling because where she wanted to show up was. 347 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 9: The same night. 348 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 12: Oh my goodness, I didn't know that. 349 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, well, you know we had a date. 350 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 5: I don't know if she had a date. 351 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 13: I asked my did. 352 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 14: I don't think I need that. 353 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 12: He didn't remember, but I know that now that I've 354 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 12: asked her about it, he probably. 355 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 2: Thought about it more and more from our friends at WBAL. 356 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 15: Pamela Lynn Conyers was a student at glenn Burnie High 357 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 15: School and was last seen alive on October sixteenth, after 358 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 15: she went to Harrondale Mall to run an errand Her 359 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 15: car was found three days later, her body less than 360 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 15: twenty four hours after that, on the side of what 361 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 15: was then in under construction Route one hundred. 362 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 16: I remember that Monday morning, had trigonometry class with her 363 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 16: and seeing her empty desk really brought it home, made 364 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 16: it real. 365 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: And again at that age, I mean, the classmates think 366 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: they're invincible and then they look over and there's that 367 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 2: empty desk. Back to potential clues, straight back out to you, 368 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 2: James shell Nutt, What if anything can be gathered from 369 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: that car? What evidence? 370 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 10: You know, you could gather bodlic fluids from that car. 371 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 10: You could still at that point gather fingerprints from that car. 372 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 10: Oftentimes perpetrators will leave behind a piece of personal property, 373 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 10: a receipt, you know, You've even seen cases where they 374 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 10: leave a wallet behind, and all of those things will 375 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 10: be taken in process. 376 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: And then a major turn in the investigation. Take a 377 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: listen to Lieutenant Jackie Davis. 378 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 8: Pam's car was found abandoned on the side of one hundred. Unfortunately, 379 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 8: less than twenty four hours later, on October twentieth, Pam's 380 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 8: body was found just a short distance from where that 381 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 8: vehicle was recovered. Topsy was performed and the cause of 382 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 8: pam Seth was ruled asphyxiation via strangulation and the manner 383 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 8: of homicide. 384 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: Officer Robert Schweitzer found Pamela Kanyer's body about three hundred 385 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: yards from the car. She was lying on her side. 386 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 3: Conyers was wearing slacks and a pullover sweater that had 387 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 3: been turned inside out. Her underwear, her purse, and the 388 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 3: car keys were missing. Tire tracks led off the little 389 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 3: used farm road into the woods. Plastercast of the tires 390 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: lead police to believe the Conyers dodge was what was 391 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 3: used to enter the woods. The police chief said he 392 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: thought Pamela Conyers had been rolled out of the car door. 393 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 4: How they know that is amazing. 394 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 2: Joining me right now, very well known medical examiner, toxicologist, 395 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 2: pathologist and author of American narcan nexalon and Heroin Fentanyl 396 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 2: Associate Immortality doctor William Maroney. Doctor Moroney, thank you for 397 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: being with us. Explain what we're hearing about this tame girl, 398 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: pam Kanyer's body. 399 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 9: Well, the important thing is we look at the science 400 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 9: of what's happened. They said, clearly this is asphyxia by strangulation. 401 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 9: So there was either a line accord or hands that 402 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 9: went around her throat, and we look for bone damage 403 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 9: and muscle bruising in the throat, and then we look 404 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 9: for signs of blood pressure that are indicative of hemorrhages 405 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 9: in the eyes, and those things show us strangulation and 406 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 9: asphyxia asphixias, somebody stopped her from breathing. Now, if it 407 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 9: was just plain asphixias, somebody put their hand over her mouth, 408 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 9: then you wouldn't have the bruised mud in the neck, 409 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 9: and you wouldn't have bone damage in the cartilage below 410 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 9: the jaw in the neck. Very specific, they said, strangulation. 411 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 9: That's a very specific process. And that's not a random thing. 412 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 9: That's not an accident thing. You can't have that happen. 413 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 9: That's premeditated. And the other part that really bothered me, 414 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 9: as their underwear was missing. That is a heinous How. 415 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: Do you know that it's manual strangulation versus ligature strangulation? 416 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 9: Okay, the big difference in autopsy is when somebody comes 417 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 9: in with a ligature, they have what is called a furrow. 418 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 9: You see it also in hanging that above and below 419 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 9: the ligature there's specific indentations that come from a wire 420 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 9: or a cord or a rope, and it's almost like 421 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 9: tire treads in a snow or tire treads for automobile tires, 422 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 9: very specific patterns. Whereas when somebody is strangled, those finger 423 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 9: marks oftentimes represent bruising in the muffles and sometimes it 424 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 9: shows up on the skin so that you can tell. 425 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 9: If somebody was strangled from behind, then the finger marks 426 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 9: are on the front of the throat. If they were 427 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 9: strangled face to face, then those finger marks will make 428 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 9: bruises on the back of the neck and on the 429 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 9: front of the neck you'll have a specific pattern where 430 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 9: the thumbs are, and those thumbs can break or damage 431 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 9: the bones in the neck. Also, that's hands versus ligatures, 432 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 9: very specific, and you can tell that like night and day. 433 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: And of course with some other type of a six 434 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 2: like suffocation, like putting a pillow over somebody's head or 435 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: your hand over their mouth and you pinch their nose, 436 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: you don't get any of the furrows to the neck 437 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: or any damage to the carlage around the neck or 438 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 2: the jaw. 439 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 4: So that's how you know it's not just a suffocation, correct, absolutely, Okay, why. 440 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: Do the eyes the little vessels in the eye. Why 441 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 2: do they hammwhage or blow up. 442 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 9: That is because of the plumbing in the neck that 443 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 9: goes to the head. The arteries that carry the blood 444 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 9: to the head and go up are very central and 445 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 9: they're protected. They're around the spinal cord and the bones 446 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 9: of the spine, and they're high pressure, so they don't 447 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 9: compress the blood returning from the head. Venus blood coming 448 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 9: back from the head and going down is much lower pressure. 449 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 9: So when you're perpetrate strangles you, whether it's hands or ligature, 450 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 9: the pressure on the outside shuts off the return flow 451 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 9: from the head before it would affect the arterial blood 452 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 9: that goes upwards and sends pressure, so you have a 453 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 9: pressure mismatch. You're no longer taking blood out of the head. 454 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 9: You're putting blood into the head. And that's why the 455 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 9: eyes hemorrhage. 456 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: So, doctor Moroney, you state that the eyes and the 457 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: tiny hemorrhages and those minuscule blood vessels indicate asphyxiation, be 458 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: it on suffocation or strangulation. Yes, are there any tail 459 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: tail signs and the mouth or the nose or the throat. 460 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 9: Well, those have alternative pathways of fluid. They have limphs, 461 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 9: they have other flow and a lot more tissue. The 462 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 9: reason why you see it first in the eyes is 463 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 9: those vessels are very delicate. Some of the vessels in 464 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 9: the mouth and in the neck and the nose, they're 465 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 9: not as delicate as the eyes. So the eyes demonstrate 466 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 9: the pressure mismatch in strangling. But if somebody strangled very, 467 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 9: very long, you'll see those kinds of hemorrhages, or you'll 468 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 9: see the results of that pressure mismatch, like a lot 469 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 9: of fluid built up in the sinuses. You'll see that 470 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 9: same thing. But the eyes are delicate because the vasculature 471 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 9: is very small, So it's the first thing to blow out. 472 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: When you say vasculature are small, you mean the blood 473 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 2: vessels are so small and tiny and fragile. 474 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace. 475 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 4: Cheryl McCollums. 476 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: So we understand from doctor William Maroney joining us about 477 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: the mode of murder. But there is a neon sign 478 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 2: saying she was raped as. 479 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 6: Well, absolutely and redressed. So the fact that her underwear 480 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 6: is missing, her top is inside out but put back 481 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 6: on her and she's wearing pants. But again the underwear 482 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 6: being missing, the top of inside out, that absolutely would 483 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 6: to me, may you consider that she was sexually assaulted 484 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 6: and that the person kept a trophy her underwear. 485 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: Doctor Angie Arnold joining us from now a psychiatrist out 486 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 2: of Atlanta. Doctor Angie, this is reminding me so much 487 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: of Ted Bundy, because he would rape his victims, murder 488 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: his victims or murder them them, rate them, and would 489 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: go through elaborate acts of bathing their bodies and applying makeup, 490 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: fixing their hair and re dressing them. 491 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: Oh, you know, I. 492 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: Heard you're a grind of disgust, but you're the psychiatrist. 493 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 4: I was expecting a little more. 494 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 6: But I know, Nancy. 495 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 7: But if I feel disgusted by that, I imagine everybody 496 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 7: that's listening feels disgusted by that. 497 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 6: It just means that they, you know, they. 498 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 7: Had this weird attachment to the person that they that 499 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 7: they performed this hiteous act on and that's how they 500 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 7: like finished it. You have to wonder what kind of 501 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 7: attachment Ted Bundy developed with his. 502 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: Victims post mortem, even yes, post mortem. 503 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 7: Attachment to his victims. It's just it's just, you know, 504 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 7: if I feel like it's creepy and I've seen everything, 505 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 7: then I know all of your viewers feel that exact 506 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 7: same way. 507 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: That's why. 508 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 7: That's why my my little active discussed. 509 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: Okay, guys, so now we know why it was a 510 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: sex motivated attack. I think we know how strangulation association 511 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: by strangulation only question who take a listen now to 512 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 2: foul play crime season. 513 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 12: My dad had a version that I heard grown up 514 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 12: with that she was kidnapped from a mall and that 515 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 12: was ala the big things because my dad didn't like 516 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 12: being out of balls when I was a teenager, and 517 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 12: that she was affected and she was missing, and then 518 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 12: she was found and had been sexually assaulted and murdered. 519 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 12: And I think they always thought it was a hell 520 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 12: of angels or something like that. 521 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 5: Why do you think your family thought. 522 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 6: That was what happened? 523 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 12: I honestly have no idea. That was kind of ended. 524 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 4: It was just somebody that was passing through town. 525 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 9: Wasn't any more evidence or whatever. 526 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: Okay, the hells Angels have done a pulling any wrong, 527 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 2: but they also well you. 528 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 4: Don't know who blame Hale's angels. 529 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: But then the case takes a very bizarre turn in 530 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: its investigation. Take listen, Martin Roeper Wmar. 531 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 17: Famia had been missing for four days before her body 532 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 17: was discovered. Police say she went to a homecoming bonfire 533 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 17: and PEP rally at glen Burnie High School on October sixteenth. 534 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 17: Later that night, she drove her family's Dodge Monaco to 535 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 17: the Roundel Mall in glen Burnie. That's the last place 536 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 17: anyone saw Pamela alive. Now the ties to the murder 537 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 17: of Sister Kathy Sesnick is that a chaplain at Archbishop 538 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 17: Keo High School in Baltimore, Reverend Joseph Maskell, was accused 539 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 17: of sexually assaulting several teenage girls. Many of those girls 540 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 17: had confided in Sister Kathy, and police suspected Reverend Maskell 541 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 17: killed Sister Kathy in an effort to cover his tracks. 542 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: We've all heard about the murder of Sister Kathy. Sister 543 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: Kathy Sesnick and many believed that Reverend Maskell killed her 544 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: in order to keep his own crimes covered up because 545 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: minnie young girls apparently confessed to her that they had 546 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 2: been sex assaulted. So somehow, now pam Connor's murder and 547 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: sex attack has now been dragged into the Sister Kathy investigation. 548 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 4: Listen to more. 549 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 17: His body was exhumed to see if his DNA would 550 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 17: connect him to the crime, but investigators didn't find a match. 551 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 17: Police had wondered if sister Kathy's death was connected to 552 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 17: the deaths of Pamela Conyers and two other young women 553 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 17: who all disappeared around the same time. Twenty year old 554 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 17: Joyce Malecky disappeared from a glen Burney shopping mall four 555 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 17: days after sister Sednik disappeared, and sixteen year old Grace 556 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 17: Montaigne disappeared from a shopping mall northwest of Baltimore. Each 557 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 17: of their bodies was found in a different law enforcement jurisdiction, 558 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 17: and to this day, not one of these cases has 559 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 17: been solved. 560 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 2: But then, seemingly out of the blue, police Chief Amal A. 561 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 4: Wad makes this announcement. 562 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 11: We've asked you to join us here this morning to 563 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 11: announce we've identified the suspect in the murder of Pamela 564 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 11: Lynd Conyers. That suspect is Forrest Clyde. 565 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 4: Williams, the Third. 566 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 2: Forrest Clyde Williams, the third who is that take alyssa wbl. 567 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 15: Forrest Williams the third grew up around here and went 568 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 15: to Northeast High School in Pasadena. Authority said today and 569 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 15: this booking photo they put up behind the podium taken 570 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 15: by Anna Arundel County Police months after the homicide. During 571 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 15: William's arrest for unrelated charges. 572 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 8: Detectives and investigators have not ruled out the possibility that 573 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 8: another person or persons may be involved in Pam's murder. 574 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 4: Even though, like he said, there's not one closure. 575 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 18: There's something you know, there's there's a person. 576 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: And take a listen to Thomas Sobuscancy at the FBI, 577 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: we are pleased. 578 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 14: To deliver a measure of justice for Pamela Conyers and 579 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 14: her loved ones. Pamela was a smiling sixteen year old 580 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 14: going shopping at the mall. Her life was viciously taking 581 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 14: away from her. Now, after more than half a century, 582 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 14: the FBI, through investigative genetic genealogy, have helped identify the 583 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 14: man who killed Pamela. We hope this offers some consolation 584 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 14: to those who loved her. When Pamela was murdered, investigative 585 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 14: genetic genealogy did not exist, DNA analysis did not exist. 586 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 14: The tools both scientific and investigative, used to solve her 587 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 14: murder have evolved. 588 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: Straight out to a very special guest joining us. She's brilliant. 589 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: It's ccmore, chief genetic genealogist at Parabond Nano Labs. You 590 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: can find her at parabond dot com. CC thank you 591 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: for being with us. Explain how the case this missing 592 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: teengirl Pam Conyers was correct. 593 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 13: There was a stain on her coat that was a mixture, 594 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 13: and part of that mixture was a semen sample that 595 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 13: our scientists were able to deconvolute from that mixture, and 596 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 13: then a DNA profile was created and uploaded to the 597 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 13: jed match database, where distant cousins were identified. Family trees 598 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 13: were built backward and forward and backward and forward. Three 599 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 13: different common ancestral couples were identified, and eventually that led 600 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 13: to Forrest William. 601 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand in regular people talk. So there 602 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,280 Speaker 2: was a seman stain on her coat, right, correct, Okay, 603 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 2: and they wisely preserved it at the time. Correct, They 604 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: preserved the coat. So it's unclear exactly when they first 605 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: found that DNA, but it was sent to Parabon in 606 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,399 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. When you get a very old sample that, 607 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 2: what do you do, ccmour. 608 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 13: Well, it is typically quite degraded, as was the case 609 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 13: with this sample, and it was also a mixture, so 610 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 13: our bioinformatic scientists had to deconvolute that, meaning extract out 611 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 13: the perpetrator's DNA from that minor contributor that was also 612 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 13: in that mix. So that semen sample is obviously what 613 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 13: is of interest to us. Once we are able to 614 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 13: pull out that perpetrator's DNA from that mixture and create 615 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 13: a snip file that can be compared against the people 616 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 13: that have uploaded their DNA into the jedmatch and Family 617 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 13: Tree DNA databases looking for distant relatives. 618 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: So jedmatch is a public genealogical website. Correct, Like, there's 619 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 2: no privacy to it is people trying to find relatives, basically, correct. 620 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 13: But people's DNA file is still private. There's a lot 621 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 13: of misconceptions about this. None of us can see someone's 622 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 13: DNA file or their DNA code. All we get is 623 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 13: a list of matches of people who share DNA with 624 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 13: that unknown suspect. So there is still some privacy involved. 625 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 13: But you're correct, it's a public database. 626 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 4: Okay. 627 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: So once you put you at paaramond Nanolabs, put the 628 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 2: sperm sample DNA that you extract from the from the sperm. 629 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: You download it and you see distant relatives, and then 630 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: you start narrowing down, go from the top like great 631 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 2: grandparents down to grandparents to the time of the incident, 632 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: and then you try to figure out who would have 633 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 2: been living there at that time exactly. 634 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 13: We also had a snapshot phenotype, so we had a 635 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 13: prediction of what this individual's traits might be pair of color, 636 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,479 Speaker 13: eye color, skin color, et cetera. So we're looking for 637 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 13: someone of the right gender, right age range, right place, 638 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 13: right time who also fits with those predicted traits. 639 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: So phenotyping is when you yet DNA and you can't 640 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: match it to anyone, but you can get, for instance, 641 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: skin collar, hair color, eye color, and other characteristics correct. 642 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 13: So that snipstile has a lot of information about that 643 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 13: unknown perpetrator. It can connect to that person's relatives, but 644 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 13: it can also tell you what they may have looked like. 645 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 2: So thanks to ccmore and others at Perabon Nanolab, we 646 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: have an answer. 647 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 4: This case that had plagued. 648 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 2: Her friends and family for so many years now have 649 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 2: something to hold on to and remember at the time 650 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: they thought it was quote someone just passing through and 651 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 2: no one had any peace at all. Listen to her 652 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 2: classmates speaking to WJZ Force. 653 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 18: Clyde Williams the Third died in twenty eighteen due to 654 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 18: natural causes. Police safety was still like today. He definitely 655 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 18: would have been charged. Some people at the unitsment today, 656 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 18: some people that knew Conyers, even an old classmate. For them, 657 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 18: today was a very surreal moment. 658 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 16: If I remember that Monday morning, had trigonometry class with 659 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,479 Speaker 16: her and seeing her empty desk really brought it home. 660 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 18: For nearly fifty three years, Pamela Knyer's death has been 661 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 18: top of mind for Michael Golden. He didn't know her 662 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 18: too well, but they went to glen Burnie High School together. 663 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 18: He's not alone. 664 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 16: It's something that all of our classmates, all of our peers, 665 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 16: have been struggling with or grappling with for all these years. 666 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 18: It's what drew him to Anaruondo County Police headquarters where 667 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 18: we all learned forced. Clyde Williams the Third has been 668 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 18: named a suspect, the result of tireless work spanning decades. 669 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: Thanks to hard working investigators at the time, police said 670 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 2: did everything right and our friends at Para Bonnano Lab, 671 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 2: we finally have a name to fit with the specter 672 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: of a killer. Goodbye, friend, you m