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Speaker 1: Pushkin. The twenty twenty holiday season is going to be

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Speaker 1: pretty strange for most of us because of COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Many families will be missing out on the fun times

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Speaker 1: and companionship we usually associate with the most wonderful time

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Speaker 1: of the year. But if you're a regular listener to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, you know that we don't have to let

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Speaker 1: bad circumstances affect our well being. The science shows that

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Speaker 1: there are lots of things we can do to adapt

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Speaker 1: to the changes twenty twenty has thrown our way. With

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Speaker 1: the right strategies, you can make this holiday season the

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Speaker 1: best one yet. Really, but to get it right, we

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Speaker 1: need to learn the latest scientific insights. And that's why

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Speaker 1: I decided to invite some of the people I admire

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Speaker 1: most in Happiness Science to chat with you for two

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Speaker 1: special holiday episodes. And to make it a bit more festive,

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Speaker 1: we decided to throw our own little Zoom holiday party. Hello,

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Speaker 1: Happy Holidays, Happy Holidays. And here was the guest list.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jamie Zaki from Stanford University, Jamille, are you there? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I can hear you now. Doctor Liz Done from the

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Speaker 1: University of British Columbia. Let's try yelling at you guys

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Speaker 1: turn it up a little bit, and doctor Nick Eppley

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Speaker 1: from the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, I

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Speaker 1: start listening to Christmas music and Labor Day. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: that guy and a guy. I wore a dumb Santa

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Speaker 1: hat for the occasion, but Liz put us all to

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Speaker 1: shame by showing up in some pretty serious party duds.

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Speaker 1: I have a shirt just like that, and I would

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Speaker 1: have totally worn it today. It's a holiday party, right, Nick,

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Speaker 1: Liz and Jamil are the scientists behind some of the

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Speaker 1: best insights into how to stay happy this holiday season,

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Speaker 1: stuff like gift giving, happiness hacks, and how to keep

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Speaker 1: the peace around the family dinner table. My hope is

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Speaker 1: that whatever your holiday season looks like this year, you'll

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Speaker 1: take away some science tips to make your holidays happier

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Speaker 1: and more stress free. So God Rescue Mary. Podcast fans

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Speaker 1: get ready to rule your Yule with the Happiness Lab

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Speaker 1: Expert Guide to the Holidays with me Doctor Laurie Santos

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Speaker 1: and friends. So one of the big things that stress

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Speaker 1: people out about the holidays is gift giving, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: like spending money on the gifts and like what kind

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Speaker 1: of gift to get and are people gonna like it?

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Speaker 1: And all these things. And it strikes me that from

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Speaker 1: a behavioral science perspective, one of the problems is that

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Speaker 1: we get the theories of gift giving all wrong. And Nick,

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Speaker 1: I take your work to basically, in a broad sense,

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Speaker 1: be saying that, like writ large right. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: there are two aspects of gift giving that create positive value.

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Speaker 1: One is the act itself. As Liz has shown in

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Speaker 1: a bunch of her work, we feel better when we

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Speaker 1: are doing good things for others, and you ought to

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Speaker 1: embrace that. At the same time, the people who get

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Speaker 1: gifts like the gifts that we give them when they

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Speaker 1: like the gifts. Sometimes these two things are aligned. As

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Speaker 1: a gift giver and often think that it's the thought

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Speaker 1: that we put into the gift and all the things

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Speaker 1: that give us value out of gift giving that the

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Speaker 1: recipient will also appreciate. But the recipient can't see your thoughts,

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Speaker 1: can't feel all of the time and effort and attention

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Speaker 1: you put into it. They just see the gift you

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Speaker 1: got them, this cute little computer mouse, and if they

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Speaker 1: like the computer mouse, they feel great, And if they don't,

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Speaker 1: they're trying to rationalize how you could have given them

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Speaker 1: this gift. So yeah, I think people do misunderstand the

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Speaker 1: nature of gift giving, and I think it's a reliable,

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Speaker 1: ego centered bias that produces it. We assume that other

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Speaker 1: people value the thought we put into a gift, and

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Speaker 1: mostly we as gift givers, value the thought we put

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Speaker 1: into a gift. Let's dig into the first part first, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: how do we get the most out of that good

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Speaker 1: feeling of doing something nice for others? So, Liz, your

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Speaker 1: work has shown that it's pretty easy if we pay

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Speaker 1: attention to it, right, Yeah, So I would say one

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Speaker 1: of the big factors that can promote the joy of

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Speaker 1: giving is getting to see the pous impact that you're

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Speaker 1: having on the giver. So if you can't be with

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Speaker 1: your recipient when they open their gift, like getting on

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Speaker 1: zoom with them, so we go to the effort to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, get my dad and stepmom on zoom and

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Speaker 1: like chase my eight year old around the house so

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Speaker 1: that like they can see him opening their gift because

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Speaker 1: that's you know, that's really like this moment of pleasure

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Speaker 1: for them. And again, you know, Nick's work suggests that's

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Speaker 1: where the giver gets there, gets their juice. What about

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Speaker 1: seeing someone enjoy their gift, not just the experience of

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Speaker 1: them getting it, but actually them using it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess one thing that I keep on coming back

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Speaker 1: to is this idea that oftentimes one really effective gift

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Speaker 1: to give someone is just money, so that they can

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Speaker 1: use it on whatever they want. I know it's not romantic,

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Speaker 1: but I think that when we try to invest all

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Speaker 1: this time in using our gift giving as a demonstration

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Speaker 1: of our mind reading capabilities, we often end up failing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Nick, you've shown over and over again that

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Speaker 1: people can try, so you can put mighty amount it's

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Speaker 1: of effort into trying to ascertain what will make someone

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Speaker 1: else happy and not necessarily get it right. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: sometimes when we give someone something like money, it gives

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Speaker 1: them the autonomy to do whatever would make them happiest

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Speaker 1: with it. And I imagine that that would in turn

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Speaker 1: be intensified by being able to have them share with

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Speaker 1: you what they liked about it, what they did with it,

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Speaker 1: maybe even share an experience with you using the money

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Speaker 1: that you give them. But again, I realized it's not

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Speaker 1: maybe the crux of the holiday spirit. Well, so that

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Speaker 1: raises a question, if we're going to give somebody money,

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Speaker 1: how can we do that better? Right? Because sometimes we

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Speaker 1: either don't have time or we have no clue. Especially

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Speaker 1: in this current holiday season, people are busy. I feel

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Speaker 1: like gift card giving is going to go up because

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Speaker 1: people can't get into shops. Right, how do we do

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Speaker 1: that better? So, my dad, even though I've had, like

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Speaker 1: you know, a normal adult like paying job for many

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Speaker 1: years now, my dad still gives any money for Christmas,

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Speaker 1: which thank you, Dad, Like it's really nice. But the

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Speaker 1: thing that I do being a happiness researcher is that

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Speaker 1: I instead of just like sticking it in my bank account,

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Speaker 1: which you know, because I do have a real job,

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Speaker 1: like it could just sort of get lost in there,

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Speaker 1: I try to like get it out in cash and

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Speaker 1: like use it for something very specific and like send

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Speaker 1: him a photo of me enjoying it so that it

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Speaker 1: can actually give him the kind of pleasure of giving

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Speaker 1: you a non monetary gift. So that is, if we

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Speaker 1: give somebody money, we should like check up on them

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Speaker 1: and say, like, hey, how did you spend it? So

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Speaker 1: we can get the extra well being boost on the

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Speaker 1: side of like noticing how they spent it, and that

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Speaker 1: they spent it well and they enjoyed it. Things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess it could come off as a little obnoxious

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Speaker 1: if you're the givers, better on the recipient end. So

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Speaker 1: I think one thing that's important to unpack here is

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Speaker 1: the psychology that's underlying these experiences, right, So so we

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Speaker 1: can a little bit better understand why is it that

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Speaker 1: gift givers, as Jamil said, feel better when you can

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Speaker 1: see the recipient's action and as Liz was pointing out

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Speaker 1: as well, and the reason is is that when you

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Speaker 1: do something nice for somebody else, there are a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that bring you pleasure from doing those pro

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Speaker 1: social actions. One is it draws you closer to the

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Speaker 1: other person, so it satisfies some relational needs. Emotions are

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Speaker 1: nothing but signals that you have achieved a goal that

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Speaker 1: you value, right, And so when you give somebody a

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Speaker 1: gift and they say, hey, that was wonderful, I feel

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Speaker 1: great about that. That draws you closer to them. You know,

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Speaker 1: I love you. That's great, You've come closer, So that

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Speaker 1: satisfies that. The other goal that it satisfies is competency.

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Speaker 1: That's the other thing we value a lot that Liz

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Speaker 1: has pointed out in her work. So if I give

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Speaker 1: Liz a gift and she feels bad about it, that's terrible,

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Speaker 1: all right. I feel terrible about that, which is why

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Speaker 1: seeing somebody appreciate the gift feels so good. Every year,

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Speaker 1: when I teach my good Life class at Booth to

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Speaker 1: my NBA students, I have them do random acts of kindness.

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Speaker 1: In general, they love it. People feel great, but there's

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Speaker 1: always like the one or two guys that just totally

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Speaker 1: bomb it. They give the sandwich to the homeless person

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Speaker 1: and the homeless person throws it back and says, I've

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Speaker 1: gotten ten of those sandwiches today, I don't need another sandwich, right,

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Speaker 1: And they feel terrible because they weren't competent. They didn't

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Speaker 1: do the thing they were trying to do. So some

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Speaker 1: of the things that are being suggested here are ways

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Speaker 1: that we can think about being good gift recipients, right,

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Speaker 1: being a good receiver, which we often don't think about.

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Speaker 1: We think about being good givers, but we can also

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Speaker 1: be good receivers. As Liz pointed out, if somebody gives

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Speaker 1: you money, it's going to be hard to really feel

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Speaker 1: great about that as a giver. I think because you're

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Speaker 1: not putting in a lot of thought for it, that's

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Speaker 1: drawing you closer the other person. But as a receiver,

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Speaker 1: we can make the giver feel great by showing that

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Speaker 1: person how we actually use that money, or showing the

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Speaker 1: other person you know what we're doing when we're using

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Speaker 1: a gift that they gave us, an experience that we're

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Speaker 1: having with the thing, and so we've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of power I think as receivers to make the holidays

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Speaker 1: better too. Another problem with our gift giving is that

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Speaker 1: we seem to fall into the same biases about what

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Speaker 1: we think we want that are wrong, right. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's so much evidence from all of your research that

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Speaker 1: we kind of get that we buy for ourselves incorrect,

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Speaker 1: and that means when we try to give stuff to

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Speaker 1: others we mess up too. So on the specific kinds

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Speaker 1: of gifts you can give, like what might be promoting

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Speaker 1: happiness better than other stuff, well, I would suggest some

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Speaker 1: of the same lessons that we know for buying things

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Speaker 1: for ourselves we can take into account for, you know,

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Speaker 1: buying for others. So, for example, I think a great

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Speaker 1: one around the holidays is to consider buying time, so

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Speaker 1: you know, is there someone that you know that's on

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Speaker 1: your gift list that would really benefit from some extra

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Speaker 1: time and that this can be a great one too,

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Speaker 1: because if you don't have a lot of money, you know,

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Speaker 1: time is something you can potentially give. So offering you know,

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Speaker 1: a single parent, like a night of babysitting so that

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Speaker 1: they can go out. Or here's an idea my friends

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Speaker 1: and I came up with, which is to do like

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Speaker 1: a dreaded task gift exchange. Like we all have the

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Speaker 1: thing that like we just don't get around to doing,

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Speaker 1: and it's like weighing on us, but it doesn't bother

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Speaker 1: other people. So we pad you know, pasted our all

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Speaker 1: along to the next person, and you just take care

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Speaker 1: of it for them, you know, you like sign them

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Speaker 1: up for that like program they've been meaning to do,

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Speaker 1: or like renew their New York or subscript or like whatever,

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Speaker 1: like dumb thing. It is right that you're just like

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting on your bile. And I love that because

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Speaker 1: it highlights that a gift cannot just be an addition

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Speaker 1: to someone's life. It can also be a subtraction from

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Speaker 1: their life of something that they might not want to do.

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Speaker 1: I guess one other thing that's come up for me

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Speaker 1: a lot with gift giving this holiday season, but not

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Speaker 1: most holiday seasons, is trying to give a gift of

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Speaker 1: coexperiencing something together because I think, unlike basically every other

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Speaker 1: year of my life, at least, I'll be away from

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Speaker 1: all of my relatives, like thousands of miles away from them,

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Speaker 1: and so, you know, I'm trying to think a lot

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Speaker 1: from my parents, especially about how can I give them

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Speaker 1: experiences of being with me and especially with my kids.

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Speaker 1: Can we sort of try to watch a movie together,

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Speaker 1: or you know, I'm gonna send my mom a book

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Speaker 1: by a novelist that she likes. But it's not just

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Speaker 1: sending her the book. I'm gonna say I'll read it

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Speaker 1: with you, you know, and we'll chat about it every week.

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Speaker 1: In essence, right, I mean to try to cultivate some

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Speaker 1: coexperiences in a time that I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us will being for them even more than usually in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty. And I love that suggestion, Jamil, because it

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Speaker 1: impacts like it's like three different areas of psychology that

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Speaker 1: we know work really well, right, Like one is, sharing

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Speaker 1: experiences is just better than doing them by themselves, right,

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Speaker 1: you're giving like an extra hit just because you're sharing

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Speaker 1: the experience. The second is, like, experiences at all are good. Right,

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Speaker 1: we know the data. We've actually talked about this on

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab already that experiences are just better than

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Speaker 1: material possessions. So the experience of reading a book is

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Speaker 1: better than just like I don't know, getting like a

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Speaker 1: mug or something, or you know, it's a sort of

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Speaker 1: material object that looks nice, but you're never going to

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Speaker 1: use it. Right, But then this year in particular, sharing

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Speaker 1: experiences is the one thing we're all hurting for psychologically, right,

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Speaker 1: Like we're all just like starving this kind of social

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Speaker 1: connection and so forcing people to like get the shared experience,

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Speaker 1: like the sharing is good and the experience is good,

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Speaker 1: and like, right now we need that more than ever.

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Speaker 1: So I love that suggestion. The other thing that we

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Speaker 1: might think about, too, is segregating some of these gifts

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Speaker 1: across time. One of the most interesting things about happiness

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Speaker 1: or well being or mood to me is how insensitive

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Speaker 1: it can be to scope particularly positive mood. When somebody

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Speaker 1: does this little nice thing for you, they give you

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Speaker 1: a compliment in the whole that can feel great, like

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Speaker 1: you're up to a nine on your ten point scale,

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Speaker 1: and that's wonderful. You're like maxing it out for that

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Speaker 1: little thing. And happiness responds to the frequency of positive events,

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Speaker 1: not the intensity of them. So often at holiday times,

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Speaker 1: what we do is we give a lot of gifts

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Speaker 1: that can be experienced like right then at that time,

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Speaker 1: instead of spread out across time. So you know, we

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Speaker 1: can think about giving people gifts to go and see

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Speaker 1: a show or to go to a restaurant sometime off

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Speaker 1: in the future, perhaps especially now, we would do that

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Speaker 1: oft in the future. They could do this in the

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Speaker 1: spring or in the summer, and that way they're sort

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Speaker 1: of spreading out that whatever the holiday cheer is and

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Speaker 1: into other points. They get to enjoy anticipating the event,

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Speaker 1: and then they experience it segregated from all of these

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Speaker 1: other things, and we'll get a bigger boost out of it,

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Speaker 1: I think as a result. I've done this with my dad,

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Speaker 1: who's like, he's really into experiences, and he's really into

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Speaker 1: food experiences. If you met my dad, you would understand why.

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Speaker 1: But I'll often give him, like, you know, like a

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Speaker 1: chocolate tasting experience. But it's one of these things that

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Speaker 1: happens on a particular day, and that day feels really

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Speaker 1: far away on Christmas, right, you know, sometimes I feel

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Speaker 1: bad of like, yeah, and March, You're really going to

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Speaker 1: enjoy this chocolate tasting, you know, But then when March

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Speaker 1: comes around, he calls me back and he's like, the

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Speaker 1: chocolate was awesome. And he often wears a goofy Sanah

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Speaker 1: hat like I'm wearing when he goes because it was

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Speaker 1: a Christmas present, right, Like, you know, then the holiday

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Speaker 1: cheer kind of extends like well in time, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then he gets to be at a at a

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Speaker 1: nine on his ten point scale two days instead of

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Speaker 1: at a nine from two events on a single day. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, anticipation is in general a way to extend

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Speaker 1: happiness and well being. But gosh, I mean, right now,

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Speaker 1: I think many of us really need things to look

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Speaker 1: forward to, right because we feel like we're in this

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Speaker 1: amorphous time blob where weeks are just passing by like

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Speaker 1: they're in a flipbook. And so I think that having

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Speaker 1: giving people something to look forward to after they're able

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Speaker 1: to go to a chocolate tasting, I mean imagine that

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Speaker 1: just being able to understand that that will be in

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Speaker 1: the future somewhere would I think maybe even not just

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Speaker 1: bring happiness, but also a sense of hope and optimism.

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Speaker 1: Hope and optimism that would certainly be a great holiday

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Speaker 1: message to end on. But we're only getting started with

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Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab Expert Guide to the Holidays. After the break,

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Speaker 1: we'll discuss an experiment that reveals the awful toll that

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Speaker 1: buying the wrong gift can have on your relationships, and

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Speaker 1: we'll bring you some shocking news about the cookie monster.

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Speaker 1: Shock and my mind is reeling from this new information.

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Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab Expert Guide to Holidays will be right back,

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Speaker 1: So Laurie, can I go back to one of the

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Speaker 1: things we discussed at the very beginning. Even though we

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Speaker 1: covered a whole range of topics during our virtual party, Nick,

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Speaker 1: Liz and Jamil wanted to return to that central tradition presence,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad they did because I know firsthand that

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Speaker 1: it's a topic that can cause a lot of unhappiness

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Speaker 1: at this time of year. In fact, you're about to

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Speaker 1: hear the awful consequences of a gift gone badly, and

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Speaker 1: also some great advice on how to make the whole

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Speaker 1: present process a source of real joy. So One of

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Speaker 1: the pleasures that people derive out of giving thoughtful gifts

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Speaker 1: is because they have personally spent time thinking about the

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Speaker 1: other to give this gift. When I give my wife

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Speaker 1: a Christmas gift, I experience that positively because of the

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Speaker 1: time that I invested in thinking about her. Whether she

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Speaker 1: likes it or not is going to be independent of

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Speaker 1: the amount of thought I put into it. But that's

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Speaker 1: one thing I think we might be able to do

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Speaker 1: in creating this holiday season. It's going to give us

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Speaker 1: a lot of time to think about, well, what would

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Speaker 1: make my dad really happy? To Nick's point, can I

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Speaker 1: shout out the card? I think that, you know, we

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Speaker 1: undervalue the card that's on top of the gift. That's

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Speaker 1: oftentimes the best part of it because a in writing it,

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Speaker 1: you get to think about and appreciate the person that

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Speaker 1: you're giving it to and be even if the gift

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Speaker 1: that's underneath it isn't perfectly calibrated with their preferences, that

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Speaker 1: might be the most rewarding thing is to see what

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Speaker 1: you think of them, what you appreciate about them, especially

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Speaker 1: in these hard times. You know, one really crappy thing

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Speaker 1: about online gifts is that they have character limits to

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Speaker 1: the notes that you can attach to them, and they're draconian.

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Speaker 1: It's like a hundred characters. You can barely say hello

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Speaker 1: in that much space. So, you know, maybe we should

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Speaker 1: consider whatever we send to people, whatever we give, whatever

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Speaker 1: we do, bringing back the card and turning it into

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Speaker 1: a letter. You know, that's something that we can do

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Speaker 1: with our time, something that we can use to focus

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Speaker 1: on the people that we love, even if they're far away,

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Speaker 1: and something that can remind them how we feel about them.

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Speaker 1: Other people appreciate your thoughts when you reveal those thoughts

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Speaker 1: to other people. One of the things that we're going

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Speaker 1: to try this holiday season, which I'm kind of excited about.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of interesting work about how we don't

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Speaker 1: adapt quite as quickly to pro social experiences as we

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Speaker 1: do to pro self selfish kind of experiences. So when

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Speaker 1: you give to other people, you feel good, and when

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Speaker 1: you do that over and over again, you continue to

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Speaker 1: feel really quite good. We find the same thing with compliments.

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Speaker 1: We ran an experiment over the summer where we had

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Speaker 1: couples create sort of a compliment calendar for the person

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Speaker 1: they were with. Just for the next week. They wrote

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Speaker 1: down one compliment for each day the following week. So

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Speaker 1: they gave them five compliments, and each day we gave

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Speaker 1: the recipient one of those compliments. We asked observers, just

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Speaker 1: separate people to read these compliments and predict how happy

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Speaker 1: the recipient would feel each day. And they thought the

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Speaker 1: recipient would feel pretty great that first day, that's really nice,

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Speaker 1: and then the second day a little less, and the

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Speaker 1: third day little less. For a fifth day, come on,

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Speaker 1: let's knock this off. This is too much. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have these theories about adaptation, but when we looked

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Speaker 1: at the recipients, they were just at eleven, like, they

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Speaker 1: were not at the top of the scalebear every day,

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Speaker 1: every compliment was new and positive and pleasant. And because

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Speaker 1: it's separated by a day, like, they were fully able

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Speaker 1: to adapt to the compliment from yesterday and then experience

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Speaker 1: this one a new So every year since going back

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Speaker 1: to when I was a kid, we would have these

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Speaker 1: Advent calendars raised in the Christian tradition, and our Advent

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Speaker 1: calendars had candy in them. So every day, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a child and I don't have anything against candy

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Speaker 1: for sure, but we're going to do a different thing

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Speaker 1: this year. In my family, which is we're going to

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Speaker 1: do a compliment calendar. We'll probably do candy two and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna except for my four year old, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: write a series of compliments to each of the other

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Speaker 1: things we're grateful about, things we like about this person.

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Speaker 1: And then we're going to take those or we're going

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Speaker 1: to roll them up into a ring and staple them together,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll just create a chain. You'll just will

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Speaker 1: open one up every day we'll get something nice that

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Speaker 1: a family member thought about us that they might not

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Speaker 1: have said otherwise. I think that could be fun. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a great strategy for highly functional families. I

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Speaker 1: would worry that in more dysfunctional families the compliments might

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Speaker 1: be worrisome. So here's an exercise I experienced once. It's

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Speaker 1: a version of that that is like more robust to

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Speaker 1: problematic compliments, which is, you walk around a room with

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Speaker 1: you know, and so maybe in COVID you could do

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Speaker 1: this in a park or something, and every time you

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Speaker 1: look at someone you think something nice about them, you

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Speaker 1: send them a compliment, but you don't say it out loud.

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Speaker 1: So again, if you have a more extended family with

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Speaker 1: some more fraught dynamics. I think that could be an

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Speaker 1: interesting variation just to remove the actual content. Well, I

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Speaker 1: know the content is part of it, but just knowing

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Speaker 1: that someone else is thinking something nice about you also

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00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:52,956
Speaker 1: feels surprisingly good. You can also have a like a

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Speaker 1: someone edit, you know, like my spouse could go in

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Speaker 1: and edit and take out the compliments that I don't

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Speaker 1: want to see from my family members. Right, so you

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Speaker 1: just have a slightly shorter chain than usual. I love Nick.

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Speaker 1: Any other things that you all do in your own

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Speaker 1: family are planning to do differently this year, Liz, you

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Speaker 1: had one that I think I read some holiday article

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Speaker 1: that you were quoted in about hiring somebody else to

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Speaker 1: wrap gifts or something like that, like any other kind

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Speaker 1: of time saving tips that you use to pay people

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Speaker 1: to do yucky stuff, especially during the holiday. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I definitely think that that can be a great gift,

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Speaker 1: because we know in some of our research, we've seen

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Speaker 1: that even though people really benefit in terms of their

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Speaker 1: happiness from time saving purchases, they feel many people feel

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Speaker 1: a lot of guilt about doing so. So like, even

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Speaker 1: if I have enough money that I could afford some

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Speaker 1: kind of time saving service, for some reason, it just

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Speaker 1: induces a lot of guilt to pay somebody else to

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Speaker 1: do something that I'm capable of doing for myself. And

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Speaker 1: this is where I think gifts come in handy. Right,

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Speaker 1: when you receive something as a gift, you don't feel

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Speaker 1: guilty about spending the money on that thing, Right, So

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Speaker 1: I think this is like a particularly good gift to

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Speaker 1: give because it removes that guilt that otherwise might kind

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Speaker 1: of get in the way of people either experiencing joy

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Speaker 1: from that time saving service, or even just being willing

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Speaker 1: to purchase it in the first place. One other thing

431
00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:10,236
Speaker 1: I would say is there's this class economics paper you

432
00:21:10,276 --> 00:21:13,876
Speaker 1: guys probably know called the Deadweight Loss of Christmas about

433
00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:17,196
Speaker 1: how like we lose so much economic value on buying

434
00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:19,596
Speaker 1: gifts because givers spend so much more money on the

435
00:21:19,596 --> 00:21:23,356
Speaker 1: gifts than like recipients would value these gifts that And

436
00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:26,236
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's interesting because the way I

437
00:21:26,276 --> 00:21:28,636
Speaker 1: think of it isn't so much just about you know,

438
00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:31,676
Speaker 1: how the giver experiences the gift or how the recipient

439
00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:34,876
Speaker 1: experiences the gift, but also about the impact on the relationship,

440
00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:37,996
Speaker 1: So this sort of space between the two people, right,

441
00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:41,596
Speaker 1: And you know, the most sort of like dramatic study

442
00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:43,516
Speaker 1: I've ever done, or like the study that I almost

443
00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:46,756
Speaker 1: wonder if it was unethical was back in graduate school.

444
00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:49,276
Speaker 1: I ran a study where we had broad and romantic

445
00:21:49,276 --> 00:21:52,836
Speaker 1: partners and we had people pick out a gift for

446
00:21:52,996 --> 00:21:55,356
Speaker 1: their romantic partner. Each person picks out a gift for

447
00:21:55,756 --> 00:21:59,316
Speaker 1: their partner, they're in separate rooms, unbeknownst to them. We

448
00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:03,236
Speaker 1: of course mess with their choices and we give each

449
00:22:03,276 --> 00:22:06,876
Speaker 1: person like the second lowest ranked item as the gift

450
00:22:06,916 --> 00:22:11,316
Speaker 1: from their partner, and like people freaked out. Like I

451
00:22:11,436 --> 00:22:15,796
Speaker 1: had to dive in between romantic partners, like to brief

452
00:22:15,876 --> 00:22:19,156
Speaker 1: them before they could like get at each other. And

453
00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:21,516
Speaker 1: it was amazing. You know, we saw these pretty dramatic

454
00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:24,596
Speaker 1: effects where people were actually these were you know, undergraduate

455
00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:26,876
Speaker 1: couples who had been dating for a while. They were

456
00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:29,796
Speaker 1: after getting a bad gift. Men. After the men got

457
00:22:29,836 --> 00:22:33,076
Speaker 1: a bad gift from their girlfriends, they were less likely

458
00:22:33,076 --> 00:22:36,316
Speaker 1: to report and interest in marrying this woman. So you know,

459
00:22:36,356 --> 00:22:41,436
Speaker 1: it suggests it suggests that gifts can have or put differently.

460
00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:44,356
Speaker 1: You know, getting a good gift can be good for

461
00:22:44,396 --> 00:22:47,156
Speaker 1: the relationship. So you know, and I think anthropologists have

462
00:22:47,156 --> 00:22:49,076
Speaker 1: recognized us for a long time that gift giving is

463
00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:52,276
Speaker 1: really important in building relationships, and so, you know, aside

464
00:22:52,276 --> 00:22:54,996
Speaker 1: from just thinking in this very individualistic way about the

465
00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,556
Speaker 1: giver's experience or about the recipients experience, I think it's

466
00:22:57,596 --> 00:22:59,356
Speaker 1: important to think about the impact that the gift can

467
00:22:59,396 --> 00:23:01,996
Speaker 1: have on the relationship, and in particular, you know, my

468
00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:04,956
Speaker 1: recommendation to people picking out gifts it is always try

469
00:23:04,996 --> 00:23:07,276
Speaker 1: to think about the what you have in common. You know,

470
00:23:07,396 --> 00:23:09,436
Speaker 1: it's just so hard to pick out gifts for people

471
00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:11,836
Speaker 1: that if you have, if there's something that you share

472
00:23:11,836 --> 00:23:14,076
Speaker 1: in common with them, picking something along those lines I

473
00:23:14,116 --> 00:23:16,036
Speaker 1: think can be helpful just because it makes you do

474
00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:18,276
Speaker 1: a better job. There's not as much of an egocentric

475
00:23:18,316 --> 00:23:21,196
Speaker 1: gap basically because you're similar to the person in that way.

476
00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:23,516
Speaker 1: And it's really what we saw on our study is that,

477
00:23:23,756 --> 00:23:26,116
Speaker 1: you know, a bad gift can call into question the

478
00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:29,676
Speaker 1: perception that we are similar, right, So you know, I

479
00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:32,596
Speaker 1: think it's actually worth you know, spending a little extra

480
00:23:32,636 --> 00:23:35,116
Speaker 1: time thinking about what gift you're going to give people

481
00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:36,596
Speaker 1: and taking some of the extra time that we might

482
00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:40,036
Speaker 1: have because of COVID to choose carefully, not only because

483
00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:42,076
Speaker 1: it might feel good to do so, but because I

484
00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:44,636
Speaker 1: would argue gift giving really matters for our relationships, which

485
00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:47,836
Speaker 1: of course are critically important for our happiness. Can I

486
00:23:47,876 --> 00:23:50,676
Speaker 1: suggest to follow ups to that. It's just it's very

487
00:23:50,676 --> 00:23:52,956
Speaker 1: hard to know what's on the mind of another person.

488
00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:57,276
Speaker 1: It just shockingly hard. I mean, I'm just consistently stune.

489
00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,996
Speaker 1: When you bring people together, even married couples, and you

490
00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:03,556
Speaker 1: have them predict the other person's beliefs, they're just wildly overconfident.

491
00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:06,036
Speaker 1: They just think they know their spouse's beliefs way better

492
00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:08,996
Speaker 1: than they actually do. And so the only thing that

493
00:24:09,036 --> 00:24:12,236
Speaker 1: we find allows you to understand what's on the mind

494
00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:15,516
Speaker 1: of another person is to ask them and then to listen.

495
00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:20,956
Speaker 1: That is totally unromantic, I understand. I get that. However,

496
00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 1: my wife is really happy when I just get her

497
00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:27,316
Speaker 1: the things she would really like, and it turns out

498
00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:32,396
Speaker 1: if I've asked her beforehand, really doesn't mat Yeah. Yeah,

499
00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:35,476
Speaker 1: like at least I had the self awareness to ask

500
00:24:35,516 --> 00:24:37,396
Speaker 1: her what she wants and then to go out and

501
00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:40,236
Speaker 1: get that thing. So so that's one strategy. The other

502
00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:43,996
Speaker 1: strategy is you can ask in subtler ways too. So, hey, Liz,

503
00:24:44,036 --> 00:24:46,796
Speaker 1: have you've done anything recently that that's been really fun.

504
00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:48,996
Speaker 1: Tell me about it, then I know what you think

505
00:24:48,996 --> 00:24:50,716
Speaker 1: it's fun. Then I can go out and get you

506
00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:54,276
Speaker 1: that thing. So we can be to Jamille's point earlier

507
00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:58,156
Speaker 1: about being more empathic, we can be better listeners around

508
00:24:58,156 --> 00:25:02,156
Speaker 1: the holidays and start probing and doing more listening than guessing.

509
00:25:02,796 --> 00:25:05,556
Speaker 1: The other thing I would suggest is, again this gets

510
00:25:05,556 --> 00:25:08,436
Speaker 1: back to the start of our conversation. We were talking

511
00:25:08,436 --> 00:25:10,796
Speaker 1: about being good, but I think it's also important to

512
00:25:10,796 --> 00:25:14,476
Speaker 1: be a good recipient. I don't doubt Liza's recipients in

513
00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:17,876
Speaker 1: her study one bit. Getting the wrong gift can intuitively

514
00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:21,036
Speaker 1: seem you know, just horrified. How could you possibly done that?

515
00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:22,836
Speaker 1: I show when I give a talk off and I

516
00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:26,676
Speaker 1: show a cartoon of Cookie Monster getting a gift from

517
00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:29,716
Speaker 1: his wife and it's a box of crackers, and he's

518
00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:32,596
Speaker 1: just horrified. I thought you knew me, right. But that's

519
00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:35,116
Speaker 1: where we can be good good recipients as well, is

520
00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:39,036
Speaker 1: to recognize it's a hard problem and other people often

521
00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,876
Speaker 1: try and when they get it wrong, like it's okay,

522
00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:46,076
Speaker 1: it's a hard problem. We can practice forgiveness as recipients

523
00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:50,316
Speaker 1: as well. During the holidays. Oh, I'm like it, shock

524
00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:53,996
Speaker 1: and awe that cookie monster has a spouse. My mind

525
00:25:54,116 --> 00:25:58,036
Speaker 1: is reeling from this new information. I want to see this,

526
00:25:58,036 --> 00:26:00,316
Speaker 1: this fellow character. But you know, I mean, I think

527
00:26:00,716 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 1: to your point, we can be better recipients in a

528
00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:06,356
Speaker 1: couple of different ways. You're totally right that perspective taking

529
00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:09,236
Speaker 1: is so difficult. You know, we can put us and

530
00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:12,116
Speaker 1: someone else's shoes, but our feet are different than theirs,

531
00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:14,916
Speaker 1: and so they might feel different in someone else's shoes,

532
00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:16,996
Speaker 1: that we might totally get them wrong even if we

533
00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:19,876
Speaker 1: attempt to simulate what we'd feel like in their position.

534
00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:23,316
Speaker 1: And so I think what you're describing Nick's perspective getting right.

535
00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:25,676
Speaker 1: So sort of doing the intel, doing the work to

536
00:26:25,876 --> 00:26:29,116
Speaker 1: extract a perspective from somebody else. You know, I often

537
00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:32,116
Speaker 1: think that we can also be good in the language

538
00:26:32,116 --> 00:26:35,076
Speaker 1: of sort of empathy and empathic accuracy. There's an observer,

539
00:26:35,436 --> 00:26:38,076
Speaker 1: the person guessing, and then there's the target, the person

540
00:26:38,116 --> 00:26:40,796
Speaker 1: who's being guessed about. And we work so hard to

541
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:43,956
Speaker 1: be better observers. How can I be better at understanding you?

542
00:26:44,316 --> 00:26:46,636
Speaker 1: I think we don't think enough about how we can

543
00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:51,756
Speaker 1: be better at being understood. Can we clarify our perspective more?

544
00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:55,116
Speaker 1: Can we verbalize it more? So maybe you know, one

545
00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,756
Speaker 1: favor that we can do to our loved ones is

546
00:26:57,876 --> 00:27:00,956
Speaker 1: drop some real clear hints about stuff that we like

547
00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:03,516
Speaker 1: or might like, right, I mean, because that way we

548
00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,236
Speaker 1: unburden them from having to seem like they like they

549
00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:10,316
Speaker 1: don't know us by asking, but nonetheless give them the

550
00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,116
Speaker 1: intel that they need to make a good choice. And

551
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:15,156
Speaker 1: another way to be a good recipient is to actually

552
00:27:15,196 --> 00:27:17,556
Speaker 1: just like tell people how you feel about the gift,

553
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,316
Speaker 1: especially when that's positive. I think you don't want to

554
00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:22,596
Speaker 1: tell people how you feel about the gift when that's negative. Yeah,

555
00:27:22,596 --> 00:27:24,396
Speaker 1: But often in the holiday season we can just be

556
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:27,196
Speaker 1: so into getting what we're going to get and getting

557
00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,396
Speaker 1: everybody's presence that we don't do the pause to really

558
00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:32,836
Speaker 1: express gratitude and like the strong way that we know

559
00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:35,676
Speaker 1: would bump up well being. My colleague Tim Hartford, who

560
00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:38,116
Speaker 1: runs the Cautionary Tales podcast here at Pushkin, has this

561
00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:40,076
Speaker 1: wonderful thing that he does with his kids where every

562
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:42,556
Speaker 1: time the kid opens a present, they have to stop

563
00:27:42,836 --> 00:27:45,876
Speaker 1: and write a gratitude letter before they can open another present,

564
00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,036
Speaker 1: but before they can like interact with and play with

565
00:27:48,076 --> 00:27:49,996
Speaker 1: that first present. First of all, it make sure that

566
00:27:50,036 --> 00:27:52,796
Speaker 1: the thank you cards get done. But it also causes

567
00:27:52,836 --> 00:27:55,036
Speaker 1: the kids to reflect on what they like about that,

568
00:27:55,276 --> 00:27:56,836
Speaker 1: you know, because now it's really stailing. It's like I

569
00:27:56,876 --> 00:27:59,276
Speaker 1: want to play with this toy right now. And I

570
00:27:59,356 --> 00:28:01,196
Speaker 1: love that sort of suggestion because it's kind of just

571
00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:03,396
Speaker 1: making sure that gratitude doesn't get lost in the mix.

572
00:28:03,516 --> 00:28:08,396
Speaker 1: Those kids are very well behaved. They're British, They're they're British. Okay, yeah,

573
00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:12,276
Speaker 1: trying to make my year old depend, aren't imagine. I

574
00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:14,596
Speaker 1: would also add, if you really don't know what your

575
00:28:15,156 --> 00:28:17,636
Speaker 1: gift recipient would want, going back to some of the

576
00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:20,236
Speaker 1: core happiness principles I think can be useful. So one

577
00:28:20,236 --> 00:28:24,116
Speaker 1: of the things we know is that quality social relationships

578
00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:25,676
Speaker 1: matter and that this is going to be a really

579
00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:29,396
Speaker 1: challenging time to maintain them during COVID. So after like

580
00:28:29,716 --> 00:28:32,836
Speaker 1: heavy hints were dropped by me, my husband got me

581
00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:36,636
Speaker 1: as for a birthday gift. Just recently. He turned our

582
00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:42,876
Speaker 1: normal average deck into a covered, heated porch so that

583
00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,196
Speaker 1: I could have friends over. Now. It is like basically

584
00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:49,716
Speaker 1: fancy saran wrap that is like enclosing it and just

585
00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:51,756
Speaker 1: like beams of wood. He bought it at home depot.

586
00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:54,796
Speaker 1: It is not fancy at all, but it means that

587
00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:58,076
Speaker 1: I can actually safely have contact with like a couple

588
00:28:58,076 --> 00:29:00,316
Speaker 1: of friends at a time in the middle of winter

589
00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:03,436
Speaker 1: when it's pouring rain and terrible here, and like that

590
00:29:03,516 --> 00:29:11,996
Speaker 1: to me is a pretty pretty amazing gift if you

591
00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:14,076
Speaker 1: still have gifts to buy. I'm sure you've gotten a

592
00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:17,036
Speaker 1: ton of great ideas from this conversation, But of course,

593
00:29:17,076 --> 00:29:19,796
Speaker 1: the holidays are about more than just presents, So join

594
00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:22,716
Speaker 1: us for the second episode of The Happiness Lab Expert

595
00:29:22,756 --> 00:29:25,516
Speaker 1: Guide to the Holidays, where you'll get more science backed

596
00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:28,156
Speaker 1: advice on how to boost your well being at a

597
00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:31,316
Speaker 1: time when many of our favorite holiday traditions seem to

598
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:39,236
Speaker 1: be on hold. The Happiness Lab is co written and

599
00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:42,596
Speaker 1: produced by Ryan Dilley. The show was mastered by Evan Viola,

600
00:29:42,796 --> 00:29:46,756
Speaker 1: and our original seasonal holiday music was composed by Zachary Silver.

601
00:29:47,476 --> 00:29:51,396
Speaker 1: Special thanks to the entire Pushkin crew, including mail La Belle,

602
00:29:51,796 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 1: Carli mcgliori, Heather Faine, Sophie Crane, mckibbon, Eric Sandler, Jacob Weisberg,

603
00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:01,116
Speaker 1: and my agent, Ben Davis. The Happiness Lab is brought

604
00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:05,396
Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries and me Doctor Laurie Sanders