1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: writing about true crime. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 7 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: compelling true crimes. 8 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 9 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries. 10 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens. 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 4: So how's going, Kate? 15 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: It's going well. 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 2: Good to see you again for yet another Buried Bones episode. 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, you've been keeping me on my toes, so I'm 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: looking forward to what you bring up today. 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: Well, we keep going deeper and deeper in history, which 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 2: I love, you know, in the seventeen hundreds, I'm very 21 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: comfortable in the eighteen hundreds. I'm just beginning to fall 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 2: in love more and more with it. And I have 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: written this audiobook that is only an audiobook. There's no 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: printed version, there's no hardback book, and there's no book 25 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: to her in that way. It is an audiobook. And 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: I'll tell you it's so funny because I get pitches 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 2: all the time from people talking about their families, and 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: sometimes they'll fit in a category where like this would 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: be a really great book for me, or this would 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: be a great tenfold, or I'll now this is a 31 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: good Buried Bones or Wicked Words. But there's been one 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: story that hasn't fit into any of these places. And 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: so I talked to my publisher and I said, I 34 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: really want to do this as an audiobook only, and 35 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: she said, okay, let's do it called The Ghost Club. 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: It's out now, and The Ghost Club is nonfiction and 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: it's kind of a mashup of two or three really 38 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: great types of stories. One is about this men's social 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: club that Charles Dickens was one of the members of 40 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds, and they would go and eat 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 2: French food, all of these exclusive men in London. They'd 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,839 Speaker 2: go and eat French food at restaurants and they would 43 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: have secret conversations about the paranormal and ghosts. Oh and 44 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,559 Speaker 2: Dickens was a huge skeptic, and they would test mediums 45 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: who they felt like we're ripping off people. And this 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: club has been in existence now from the eighteen sixties 47 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: until today. 48 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: It's still here. 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: I've gone to the meetings and the evolution of this 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: club was really great. There's so many good ghost stories 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: that I tell that we're told by the members. And 52 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 2: then there's this like electrifying president of the Ghost Club. 53 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: The chairman named Harry Price, who was the world's most 54 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: well known ghost hunter, and his job was to go 55 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: and investigate all of these ghost stories, to defraud them 56 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: or to verify them. And he goes to the most 57 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: haunted house in all of England called the Borly Rectory, 58 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: where there have been ghost sightings for hundreds of years, 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: and he investigates it and it is like full of 60 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: high drama and it's a real story and I love 61 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 2: telling it. And I want to know, do you get 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: spooked easily? Should I send you a link to the 63 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: Ghost Club? Or is this not your jam and you 64 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 2: should be listening to calm or something else. 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 3: You know, I don't get spooked easily at all. And 66 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: I've never run across a situation where I go, huh, 67 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: you know, was that a paranormal event? It sounds like 68 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 3: this Harry Price was the historic ghostbuster. He was. 69 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: He was and he was very charming, and he was 70 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: a conjurer, he was a magician, and so people didn't 71 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: trust him at all, but he was so well known, 72 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: he made so much money writing these incredible books. But 73 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: he also was the big question for me was is 74 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,559 Speaker 2: this guy a fraud or did he really really investigate 75 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: and then conclude that a place like the Borley Rectory 76 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: was really haunted? 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: And it frankly scares the crap out of me. 78 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: The whole thing, the whole thing to read these colonels 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 2: and these authors and these like all these military men 80 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: and these politicians and these members of the royal family 81 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: talk about like grimlins and mysterious headless horsemen. I mean, 82 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: it's it was wild to read this archive. I've never 83 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: had an experience like that before. 84 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I was just you're bringing up Charles Dickens. 85 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: And when we were out there in crime Con UK 86 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: last year, I went and ate at a pub down 87 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: by Westminster and there was a sign in this pub 88 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 3: saying this was a regular hangout for Charles Dickens. 89 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. 90 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: Man, I'm just wondering was this where he was meeting 91 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: with his you know, cronies to do the ghost talks. 92 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: They were a big fan of international cuisine. They did 93 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: not want British food, but it absolutely could have been. 94 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: Dickens was a skeptic, you know. I'm One of my 95 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: favorite books is at Christmas Carol where they start out 96 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 2: with Marley is dead and now Ebenezer's getting ready to 97 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: see his ghost appear. And Dickens was a big skeptic. 98 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: He really was, but I think he wanted to believe, 99 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: which is why he was so important to this iteration 100 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: of the Ghost Club. They were trying to debunk all 101 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: of these people who were ripping off grieving families. 102 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: That's really what it was. 103 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: They were ripping off grieving families and it was very, 104 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: very upsetting, and Dickens and people like Harry Price really 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 2: wanted to clear the air of all of these really 106 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: bad people who were claiming to be mediums and reserve 107 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: the space for people who truly were. By the end 108 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 2: of the Ghost Club, for me, I was trying to 109 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: really figure out how I felt, but also where we 110 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: land with all of this today. One of the stories 111 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: is there is a little girl who is begging her 112 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 2: dad who's in England, please don't go on this trip 113 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: to America. 114 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't want you to do it. Please don't go. 115 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 2: And he says why and she says, cause I think 116 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 2: you're going to die and he says, no, I'm not. 117 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: And this is told by a ghost club member. He's like, no, 118 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: I'm not. 119 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: Don't worry, honey, and he kisses are goodbye, gets on 120 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: the Titanic. 121 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 122 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: Premonition. 123 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: Little kids were known to have premonitions, they claim, I mean, 124 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: depends on what you believe in, but really creepy, like 125 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: a colonel of the British Army leaving the room when 126 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: he was a boy, his bedroom when he was a boy, 127 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: and coming back and just blood splashed all over his 128 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: drawing table. He checked every wall, every room. It was 129 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: just the cat was there who was still alive? And 130 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: that was it. To have these important people recall stories 131 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: like that, you just keep thinking was everybody delusional or 132 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: did this really happen to all of them? And that's 133 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: what I try to disentangle, which was a big challenge 134 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: for me. I don't often get to write really really 135 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: fun things, but this was fun. 136 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 4: I'm sure it's going to be a great listen. 137 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we'll see if I can spook, I'm gonna 138 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: send it to you. 139 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 4: And what we'll see, challenge, Except. 140 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: The little creepy kid predicting the Titanic and a colonel 141 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: talking about blood dripping down a drawing table doesn't freak 142 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: you out. I don't know what will though, of course, Paul, So, Paul, 143 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: this case is so big that we need to make 144 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: this a two parter. There's some forensics, there's lots of debate, 145 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: and there's still a big question of mark about what 146 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: actually happened in this case. 147 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: So just get ready to dig in for a two parter. 148 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 4: Okay, I'll get my popcorn ready. 149 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: This is where we're at. 150 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: This is a really incredible story for me because it's 151 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: many firsts, and I love superlatives. I love a good 152 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: This is the first of its kind, and this was 153 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: the first documented trial by court clerks. It's not as 154 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: technical as a stenographer, but someone who was summarizing the proceedings, 155 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: which was important for the public record, and it was 156 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: important for us when we were doing this research. It's 157 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: also one of the first legal cases in the United 158 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: States where the trial actually lasted. 159 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: Longer than one day. 160 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 4: Oh jeez, and. 161 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: I can tell you that spell's not good news for 162 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: defendants in case you were oh. 163 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 4: Not at all, not all, wow. 164 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: Especially in a place like New York. 165 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: If you were another country, it was presumed that you 166 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: were guilty from the start. So this is an interesting 167 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: story because it involves some of our founding fathers and 168 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: very controversial. Okay, seventeen ninety nine, going into eighteen hundreds 169 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: in Manhattan. Back then it was very bustling, of course, 170 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 2: and you're picturing horses and carriages, you're picturing lots of 171 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 2: sanitation issues, but also some very wealthy people. We're talking 172 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: about Soho, the Soho district of Manhattan. 173 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 1: I love Soho. 174 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: I think it's a great area and it's kind of 175 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: known for its artists. But then in seventeen ninety nine, 176 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: it was a meadow called Lisbonid's Meadow, and there's a 177 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: well called the Manhattan Well that becomes very important to 178 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: the story. The well holds water that's mostly used for 179 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: firefighting and for the lighting industry at this time in 180 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: the late seventeen hundreds. So one of our main characters 181 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: is a woman whose name is Julielma, and we're just, 182 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 2: thank goodness, going to call her Elma, so don't keep 183 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: butchering her name. Elma lives just a few blocks from 184 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: this meadow, which means she lives not far from this well. 185 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: And for the past few years she stayed at a 186 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: boarding house on Greenwich Street that's owned by two Quakers, 187 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: Elias and Catherine Ring, and Elma is related to Catherine, 188 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: and Catherine's sister also lives there, as a woman named Hope. 189 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,239 Speaker 2: There's a lot of names happening, but they distinguished themselves 190 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: in just a little bit. So we've got six people 191 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: living in this boarding house at the time. 192 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: It's well regarded. 193 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: It is not a place of ill repute, and you know, 194 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: it's mostly middle class and boarding houses were very, very common. 195 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: I do have a. 196 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: Slight pop quiz for you. There were boarders and there 197 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: were lodgers. What do you think the differences between a 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: border and a lodger. 199 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: Well, if I were to guess, I'm thinking if you're 200 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 3: a border, you're expected to perform some sort of function 201 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: in the boarding house to just kind of maintain it. 202 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 4: First. A lodger is as you're paying to stay there. 203 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: The main difference between a border and a lodger is 204 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: a border takes meals there, and the lodger. 205 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: Basically sleeps there. 206 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 2: Oh okay, So I don't know if that's the difference 207 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: between a hotel now or and a bed and breakfast, 208 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: But it doesn't really matter because there are six people 209 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: staying in this boarding house at the same time. So 210 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: when we're talking about December of seventeen ninety nine, the 211 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: country's slightly traumatized because they've just lost George Washington. He 212 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: had served two terms as the nation's first president, and 213 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 2: now his vice president is in the driver's seat. John 214 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: Adams and George Washington died very recently. I think it 215 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: was December fourteenth of seventeen ninety nine. So that's where 216 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 2: we are in history. But kind of drilling down to 217 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 2: our main character's Elma, who is the twenty two year old, 218 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: has confided in her friend Hope, who's at the boarding 219 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 2: house also that she's going to a lope with a 220 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: carpenter named Levi Weeks, and Levi as another boarder in 221 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: this house. 222 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: Elma wants Hope. 223 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: To keep this a secret, which is kind of a 224 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 2: tall order. This is a pretty good gossip and the 225 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: issue already straight away with Levi is that he has 226 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: actually pursued other women in the house, including Hope. Pursuing 227 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 2: women in the seventeen hundreds would have been tricky because 228 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have been able to have sex beforehand before 229 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: being married, and if they did, she would be left 230 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: with a blemish and she might not get married anymore. 231 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 2: It was certainly dating was a lot more complicated in 232 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds than it is now. So already I'm 233 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 2: not sure I like Levi because he's dating multiple women, 234 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: or he's trying to date multiple women in the same house. 235 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: What do you think, Well. 236 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 3: When you say he's dating, is this just like courting? 237 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 3: So he was courting Hope and yeah, has she just 238 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 3: kind of spurned him? And then now he's onto Elma. 239 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: I think he's moved on to Elma or coorted both 240 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: of them at the same time and sort of went 241 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: with whoever said yes. And it looks like Elma is 242 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 2: the one who said yes. But it doesn't seem like 243 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: there are any bad feelings anywhere. Levi is kind of 244 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: a carpenter, construction worker type guy, but he has family 245 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: and high places, and we'll get to that in a 246 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: little bit. Most people assume that Levi and Elma are 247 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 2: serious boyfriend and girlfriend. They don't really talk about it, 248 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: especially Levi. Levi doesn't really want to talk about it. 249 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: He hasn't disclosed that they are going to get more 250 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: serious or get married. 251 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: He's just sort of living his life. 252 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: Alma tells Hope that the wedding is set for December 253 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 2: twenty second. You know, Elma was in really high spirits. 254 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 2: She seemed really excited. She loved Levi, and Hope decides 255 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: she wants to tell her sister Catherine, who is the 256 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: woman who runs the whole boarding house, about this. So 257 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: it's a big secret. She says to Catherine, they're going 258 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: to a lope on December twenty second. 259 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: This is a big deal. 260 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: And finally Catherine goes to Elma and says, what I 261 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: don't understand is why Levia is keeping this a secret. 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: Elma says, you know what, I don't really know. He 263 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: just doesn't want to talk about it in any way. 264 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: And Catherine says, whatever, this is your relationship. Whatever you 265 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 2: want to do, and she helps Elma get dressed that night, 266 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: which is her wedding night, December twenty second. She gets 267 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: her outfit, her hat, her shawl, her handkerchief, and there's 268 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 2: a muff that she borrowed from a neighbor. Do you 269 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: know what a muff looks like? 270 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 3: No? 271 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 4: In fact, I was just about to ask, what is 272 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 4: a muff? 273 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: This is a muff? See what the woman's oh wearing 274 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: to keep you warm? December, New York. 275 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, now that's not attached to her dress. That's 276 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: just something that she would stick her hands into. 277 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 278 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you see she's wearing gloves already, but they're 279 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: thin gloves. 280 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: Women wouldn't have worn big, thick wool gloves. 281 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: They would have worn dainty women's, you know, nighttime gloves, 282 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: and then they would I've used a muff just to 283 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: appear a little bit more delicate. 284 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 4: Now is this something that was common? 285 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: Like she's going to her wedding right, yeah, so she's 286 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 3: so a muff is like almost a decorative even though 287 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: it's functional to keep the hands warm, but it was 288 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: viewed as being decorative too. 289 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it looks like it could. 290 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: I'm sure it ranged from whatever the animals were available. 291 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: Then it could have been everything from squirrel all the 292 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: way up to mink, depending on what class you were. 293 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: But yeah, this was very, very common and of course 294 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: being hatted formerly haded, having a hat would have been 295 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: very common too. 296 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: So she, you know, she's going to her wedding. 297 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: She's not talking to anybody about where this wedding's happening. 298 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: Nobody's invited. They're literally eloping, and that's it. Elma is dressed, 299 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: and Catherine goes downstairs and hangs out with her husband Elias, 300 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: and some of the other Borders are downstairs, including Levi. 301 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: So there's a stairwell in a separate area, so Catherine doesn't. 302 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: Actually see anything, but she hears this. 303 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: So Elma comes down the stairs and Levi gets up 304 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: from a seat. He goes away from the sitting room 305 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: and he goes in the hallway where the stairwell is, 306 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: and Catherine can overhear these two people having a conversation. 307 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: At the foot of the stairs. She hears this door open, 308 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: which is very loud. It's a broken door, and it's 309 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: something that she would have picked up on very quickly. 310 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: She hears people leave. 311 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: She has not, as a witness, seen a conversation between 312 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: the two of them. I'm not suggesting death happened. It 313 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: did not happen at this time, but just the conversation 314 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 2: between the two of them appeared that Elma and Levi 315 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: had a discussion. 316 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: He probably said, are you ready to go get married? 317 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: And she probably said yes, and they left and that 318 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 2: was it, and that was the last time that Catherine 319 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: saw Elma alive. 320 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: I think you said this, But Levi and Elma, they're 321 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,239 Speaker 3: where they're going to get married is unknown to everybody. 322 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: They're keeping it a secret, and Levi's not acknowledging this 323 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: really to anybody. It's almost as if it's a figment 324 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: of Elma's imagination a bit. Levi is not acknowledging it, 325 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: and nobody's really pressing him on it at this point. Okay, 326 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 2: so already this is shrouded in mystery. We have snow outside, 327 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: it's very very cold. It's late December, I know, December 328 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: twenty second. We're approaching Christmas. Christmas was not even remotely 329 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,479 Speaker 2: a big deal in the late seventeen hundreds in America. 330 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: It didn't really become a big deal until kind of 331 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: the early eighteen hundreds, and then it gained popularity. So 332 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 2: when you hear things that sound like Christmas, and oh 333 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: my goodness, I can't believe this is happening. Christmas was 334 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: not an unusual day for court proceedings to happen either. 335 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 3: Now, the tradition back then for two people to get 336 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: married was it, you know, like it is today, where 337 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 3: generally the families you know, would be participants and it 338 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 3: would be somewhat of a big deal for both sides. 339 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 4: And these two people are choosing to elope with. 340 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: No family members in attendance as far as you know, 341 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: no friends in attendance. Correct, And it's this an unusual 342 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: circumstance for back then or is this a normal thing? 343 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 2: It would have been a normal thing from mid to 344 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 2: lower classes to a lope, just like it is today. 345 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, not that people of upper classes 346 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: today or then couldn't e lope, but it would have 347 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: been a much more a bigger production even then than 348 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 2: it could be now. 349 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: So weddings were a really big deal. 350 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: But I don't think anyone was particularly shocked that you 351 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: have two relatively young people in their early twenties who 352 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: decide to go off in a lope to. 353 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: Save some money. 354 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: I mean, remember they're in a boarding house. Weddings cost 355 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: a lot of money. But then things start to get 356 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: a little tricky once we find out a little bit 357 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: about Levi's family. Again, this is a big mystery. This 358 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 2: is still sort of a case that's up in the air. 359 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 2: So around eight o'clock, Catherine hears the front door, which 360 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 2: is broken open and shut. This is what she assumes 361 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: is Levi and Elma leaving together to go get married. 362 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 2: She tries to look through the window, but it's too dark. 363 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: It's very very dark at this point. That night, around 364 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: ten o'clock, she hears the door again, two hours later, 365 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 2: and she sees Levi coming into the boarding house and 366 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: he's by himself, and he's very agitated. So this is 367 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: already not looking good for Levi or frankly for Elma. 368 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 3: No, that's not looking good at all, you know, unless 369 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: Alma ended up getting cold feet and told him to 370 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: take a hike. 371 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 4: Right right. 372 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: As we get deeper into the story, it becomes a 373 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: little bit more confusing. Catherine says, where is Elma? Because 374 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 2: it's ten o'clock at night. It's not appropriate for a 375 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 2: young woman to be out unescorted by a man. It 376 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 2: just wouldn't have been a good idea in seventeen ninety 377 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: nine New York. Even though they're in a kind of 378 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: what seems to be a rural area, and Levi says, 379 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 2: she's still out. I'm surprised she would go out that late, 380 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: also totally by herself. But Catherine did not sound the 381 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: alarm because Elma would spend the night with friends, not men, 382 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: but friends. So we've talked about this over and over again. 383 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 2: Where you don't have cell phones and text messages, and 384 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: of course in their case there's no landlines, there's nothing. 385 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 2: You're kind of hoping for the best and you're looking 386 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: at someone's past patterns and saying, well, Elma's gone and 387 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: spent the night before, that's not unusual. 388 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: We're not going to panic right. 389 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 4: Right, you know. 390 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 3: And that's that's again where victimology is something that you 391 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: have to pay attention to as an investigator. I'd be 392 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 3: paying attention to what is her normal pattern. But it's 393 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: also something that Levi most certainly if he's involved in 394 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: foul play against Elma, could take advantage of in terms 395 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: of delaying the friends from suspecting that anything was wrong 396 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 3: at that point. 397 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: And this is his wedding night, so you would think 398 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: she would write, I mean, I like your quizzical looks 399 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: are always funny to me. 400 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: I mean obviously. 401 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: You know, at this point things have gone awry from 402 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: what would be expected, you know, So now you know, 403 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: red flags are going off surrounding Levi and what happened 404 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 3: to Elma. 405 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: Right, big time red flags. 406 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: So Catherine is the queen of red flags because she 407 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: runs over to Levi and says, what happened? I thought 408 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 2: you were going to Elope and by that morning when 409 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: she had not shown up, Alma had not shown up 410 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: by that morning. Catherine was then panicked because she said 411 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: there's no way she would come right back after spending 412 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: the night at someone's house. And she confronts Levi and 413 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: she says, did you get married last night? And he 414 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 2: turned pale, He trembled, He seemed again agitated. He started 415 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 2: to cry, and he cried out, I'm ruined. 416 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: I'm ruined. Okay, Now, what do you think about that? 417 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: Because you probably are going to ask for more context, 418 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: because there is more context. But already this is a 419 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: man who's panicking and his wife is not supposed wife 420 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: is not there. 421 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, when I go back to Levi being 422 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 3: so secretive about this relationship, you know, was there anything 423 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 3: whether because of who Elma is or was or maybe 424 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: I mean is it possible she was pregnant, you know, 425 00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: which I guess back then would have been. 426 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 4: A big deal for both of them. That could be negative. 427 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: Or did something happen while they were out, which now 428 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: he is recognizing he is under suspicion and if he 429 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: is caught for doing something bad to Elma, that is 430 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: going to impact his future. So I'm kind of looking 431 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 3: at it from multiple vantage points at this point. 432 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: Now, let me tell you, because this is probably not 433 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 2: going to shock anyone. 434 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: Elma ends up dead? Did that shocking? 435 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 4: How as I was expecting that? 436 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: And the reason I'm telling you that is because I 437 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: want you to know that heading into this statement, because 438 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 2: he does say something that I think is really interesting, 439 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: and it's the tense of a word that he uses. 440 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: After he says. 441 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: I'm ruined and he's crying and upset, he says, I'm 442 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: undone forever. Unless she appears to clear me, my existence 443 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 2: will only be a burden. I had rather die in 444 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: credit than live under it. He is in financial despair 445 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 2: and he's using the present unless she clears me. Does 446 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: that mean anything? When they use present tense and we're 447 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: thinking they could be a killer, you. 448 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 3: Know what can be whether a person is talking about 449 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 3: a let's say it's a missing we don't know what 450 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 3: happened to the victim. 451 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 4: And if you're talking to. 452 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 3: A suspect and the suspect is continuously using past tense, 453 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 3: that's something that an interviewer is going to pay attention 454 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: to because that subconsciously that suspect may be expressing knowledge 455 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 3: they know that that victim is not going to reappear. 456 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 4: But it's not concrete. 457 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 3: You know, I will and I talk about people sometimes 458 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 3: I will confuse my tenses. 459 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 4: You know. 460 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 3: It's just spoken language. Is not proper language by any 461 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: stretch of the imagination, but it's something that has to 462 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: be paid attention to. 463 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting as this unfolds, 464 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: because it sounded to me like he was saying I'm ruined, 465 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 2: not because he did anything to her, but because his 466 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 2: financial situation was so bad that she should not marry him. 467 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: Now he is not saying anything else. He's not giving 468 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: any more details, except when Catherine says, but you were engaged. 469 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: You were engaged to Elma, and he says, no, I wasn't. 470 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have tried to marry her without getting. 471 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: My brother's permission. 472 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 4: His brother, right. 473 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: The brother is a man named Ezra Weeks, and he 474 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: was very, very wealthy, and I imagine he. 475 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: Helped support Levi. 476 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 2: Ezra Weeks was the architect on Gracie's Mansion, which is 477 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: the mayor's mansion in New York. He was incredibly well respected. 478 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 2: He designed the Federal Courthouse, I believe, which is a 479 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: huge deal. And I think what Levi was saying was, listen, 480 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: I would have had to have talked to my brother 481 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: about this because I think Ezra was like a father 482 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: figure to him. I think he wanted to clear it 483 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: with a family member. Catherine says, Listen, Elma told me 484 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: that you talked to Ezra about this in engagement, as 485 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: a matter of fact, and he cleared it for you. 486 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: So already we've got a distraught Levi. We've got a 487 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: woman who hasn't come home in twelve hours or more, 488 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: and you've got Levi who's agitated over money. 489 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: He claims, okay. 490 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: But he's caught in this lie where he says I 491 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 2: wasn't engaged to her, and Catherine says, Elma was very 492 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 2: clear that you were engaged. Now let me say something 493 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 2: that's uncomfortable. So what would happen sometimes is that men 494 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: would get engaged to women. Men would become engaged to 495 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: women so they could have sex. 496 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 4: No, I couldn't imagine that happened. 497 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 2: Because be a smartass, Because it was because it was justified. 498 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: You could say, Okay, you know, you weren't allowed to 499 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: have sex before a woman was hainted. If she did, 500 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: especially in the eighteenth century, it would be very difficult 501 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: for her unless she were widowed to you know, explain 502 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: why she had sex before marriage. Any sort of quote 503 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: unquote proper woman's sounds like. This is a situation where, 504 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 2: and I've read and has been in my books many times, 505 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: where the men promise the women I will marry you, 506 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 2: they have sex because they're engaged, and then the man leaves. 507 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 2: There is actually a lawsuit that you can file called 508 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: the Heartbaum lawsuit against men who do that to get 509 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 2: monetary compensation for taking my virginity and not giving me 510 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: a marriage in exchange, because now I can't get married, 511 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: so now you're going to have to pay me in 512 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 2: a court of law, which I've written about several people 513 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 2: who have been slapped with those sorts of lawsuits. 514 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 3: Well, it most certaly is a form of deception, yeah, 515 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 3: you know, by the man, and considering not only the 516 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: reputation of the woman but the financial devastation, I can 517 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: absolutely see the legal justification back then for such a lawsuit. 518 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: I'm kind of curious with Elma. Did she have any 519 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 3: financial assets or would she had just been and relying 520 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: upon Levi for having the money to be able to live. 521 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 3: And of course, you know levi source of money is Ezra. 522 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: Right, it doesn't seem like Elma had much of an 523 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: income at all. Okay, And because they're in a boarding situation, 524 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: I think Levi earned his money by working on Ezra's 525 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: buildings as a kind of construction worker carpenter is the 526 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: impression I've gotten. So I don't think that Ezra was 527 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 2: funding some lavish lifestyle, but I do think he was 528 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 2: helping his brother out. And I don't get the impression 529 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,239 Speaker 2: that Elma worked in any way, or if she did, 530 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: she must have to have gotten some money. Maybe it 531 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 2: was sort of assistant work, secretarial work. 532 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. 533 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 2: There were pretty limited options, but it's a middle class 534 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 2: boarding house, which meant she was not a servant. She 535 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: had to have been something a little bit more, she 536 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: had family who was taking care of her. But it 537 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: seems clear that this would have been a traditional marriage 538 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 2: where Levi would have supported both of them. 539 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: And now assessing Levi and maybe his motivations for causing 540 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 3: harm to Elma, this is where from my perspective, hope 541 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 3: it becomes very interesting. He previously had courted her. Did 542 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 3: he pressure her to get engaged to have sex? You know, 543 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: this would be something in terms of trying to establish 544 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: a pattern of behavior for Levi with Elma. Maybe things 545 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 3: got so far down a path where he recognized, well, 546 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: my lifestyle is going to be cramped. I'm going to 547 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 3: have to be sharing my money with this woman who 548 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 3: I don't love. Yeah, I just want to have sex with. 549 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 3: It's going to be cutting my assets and half, so 550 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 3: to speak, and it's going to be cramping My playboy lifestyle. 551 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: Could be playboy lifestyle. 552 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 2: What would that have been like in seventeen ninety nine 553 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 2: playboy life cumber. 554 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: I also wonder if it were that they left. 555 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: She started talking about their life after they got married, 556 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 2: and they started talking about finances, and he started to 557 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: freak out because his first reaction when seeing Catherine and 558 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: being confronted where's Elma. 559 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: His first reaction is to say, I'm ruined. 560 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 2: I don't have any money, and you know, she shouldn't 561 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 2: have married me, and maybe they got into a fight. 562 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: I don't know. 563 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: We're going to get to the discovery, which is a 564 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: difficult discovery to make, but their motives are up in 565 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: the air. 566 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 3: And just another thought is, let's say, you know, under 567 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: this time frame, and Levi had got to engage with 568 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: Alma with the intent to have sex and then was 569 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 3: going to break it off. His source of income is Ezra. 570 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 3: Could Alma have threatened I will not just sue you. Yeah, 571 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: but Ezra, your brother, who's your financial resource, is also 572 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 3: going to be sued. 573 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 574 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And those Heartbalm lawsuits were even in the late 575 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 2: seventeen hundred, so I would be surprised if she, You're right, 576 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: threatened him, and boy, that would have been so jdgrimental 577 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: to the Week's family in general, thanks for Levi. From 578 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: my point of view, are not looking great, but things 579 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: for Elma are really not looking well. After this December 580 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: of twenty fourth, which is Christmas Eve, there are a 581 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: couple of boys playing in that meadow that we talked about, 582 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 2: which is very close to the boarding house. 583 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: They go to the well, the Manhattan well, which I. 584 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: Told you was used with firefighters and a lighting company 585 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: in various places, a big well. They discover a woman's 586 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: muff floating in the nearby well, and it was the 587 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: one that Alma wore that she borrowed from the neighbor 588 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: two nights before. So we've got a muff in a well. 589 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 4: But nobody is floating with the muff. 590 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: Nobody nobody in the well. 591 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: So that same day, Catherine is talking to Levi and 592 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: has a really awkward interaction with him because she says 593 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 2: to him, your fiance has been missing for two days. 594 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: What do you think happened? He said, missus Ring? Who 595 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: was Catherine? Missus Ring? 596 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: It's my firm belief that she's now in eternity. It 597 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 2: certainly is. Therefore, make yourself easy for your morning. We'll 598 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: never bring her back. He's saying, she's dead, and stop 599 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: whining about it, because I think she's gone into eternity. 600 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: So this just seems damning to me. But we haven't 601 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: found a body yet, So Elma could be in Connecticut. 602 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: We don't know, no, but it is an incriminating statement 603 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: yet know now Obviously it's very indirect and very flowery 604 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 3: the way he's saying it. 605 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 4: But in essence, he's going she's dead. 606 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 3: So he's professing that he knows what happened last night. 607 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: At this point, he's just not providing details. 608 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: He says, it's my firm belief, which is, this is 609 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: what I think happened. Now let me tell you what 610 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: he thinks is going on. He says that he believes 611 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 2: Elma has a drug problem, and she has also had 612 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: suicidal ideations, and he has people who could say that. 613 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 2: He knows a couple of people who have said they 614 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: have had conversations with Elma where she has said why. 615 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: I heard her say she wished she never had an existence. 616 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: He heard her threaten if she had laudanum that she 617 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: would swallow it. 618 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: Laudanum is an opioid. Do you know much about that? 619 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: You know, this is the tincture of opium. 620 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: It is taking opium powder and dissolving it in alcohol. 621 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 3: This was a medicine and it would be you know, 622 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: prescribed opium of course contains morphine and codine and other alkaloids, 623 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: and would be useful for pain, be useful for coughing. 624 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: You know, morphine very good for pain. Right to this day, 625 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 3: it's used for pain. Codine is in prescription cough syrup. Also, 626 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: opioids are constipating. So I mean earlier you mentioned cholera. 627 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 3: You know, diarrhea, So this tincture of opium would be 628 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: something that could be used for diarrhea. But imagine how 629 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 3: addictive this stuff would be. It's just like today, It's 630 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 3: like during the opioid crisis. This is a very potent 631 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: liquid source which somebody could get highly addicted to. 632 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 2: But she's saying if she had laudanum that she would 633 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 2: swallow it. That confuses me. I don't know if she's 634 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: threatening suicide here. Yeah, he's connecting it to she would 635 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: take her own life using laudanum, which I guess is 636 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: very easy to do right to overdose on it. 637 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 3: It's very easy to overdose, and it was common to 638 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: overdose back in the day. You know, this is something 639 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 3: I was taking a look at the potency of this 640 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 3: tincture of opium, and it is highly potent. Three tea 641 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: spoons could potentially cause you to overdose to the point 642 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: of death, depending on your tolerance, of course, but if 643 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 3: you are a novice user, you are more likely to 644 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 3: succumb to the effects, versus if you've built up tolerance. 645 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 3: Now she's addicted, she's probably built up tolerance, would need 646 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 3: more in order to overdose. But anybody, no matter how 647 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 3: tolerant they are with opioids, could take enough in and 648 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 3: overdose it. It is a drug that it does have 649 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 3: a fatal level with anybody. 650 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: Well, Levi is convinced that Elma is dead because she 651 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: was a troubled woman who might have been addicted to 652 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: an opioid. And that's what he is saying so far 653 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: to Catherine. 654 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: Is Catherine asking, well, what happened between you two last night? 655 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 3: You know, when was the last time you saw her? 656 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 3: You know, why does he think this? 657 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you a little bit about people 658 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century. Confrontation was not an impropriety. Her 659 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: questioning Levi too much when he appears to be in despair, 660 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 2: thus sending him into more despair, would have been improper 661 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: for anyone, let alone a woman, to do so. I 662 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 2: don't see her following up. I'm not sure she's one 663 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: hundred percent shocked. I'm not sure if she feels like well, 664 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 2: if Elma really is getting strung along by Levi. Then 665 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: maybe something happened and they got into an argument and 666 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: she wandered off into the meadow and vanished, and the 667 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: muff went into the well. It doesn't seem like she 668 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: did any more extensive questioning, but she was alarmed by 669 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: his response, for sure, So she goes missing December twenty second, 670 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 2: the twenty fourth of December, two days later is when 671 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 2: they find the muff in the well. 672 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: Then a day or two after. 673 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: That, we have a man who's near the well who 674 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: just notices a one horse sleigh track and a couple 675 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 2: of shoe prints, and the body has not been discovered 676 00:34:58,840 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: at this. 677 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 1: Point, so he just makes note of them. 678 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: Because this is not a high traffic area without an 679 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: emergency or without a utility crew around, who would use 680 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,800 Speaker 2: that well. He thought it was interesting that a sleigh 681 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: would pull up so close to the well. And then 682 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: you know, a pair of what he presumed were men's 683 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: shoe prints were found near the well, so he just 684 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: made a mental note of that. And again we're pretty 685 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: limited with forensics, but we know this probably has something 686 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 2: to do with the case. 687 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 3: I'm kind of questioning how to attribute these shoe impressions 688 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 3: and the track to the case because they're seen several 689 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 3: days later. Trying to draw a nexus between that evidence 690 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 3: and the night that Elma goes missing is going to 691 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 3: be problematic. So there needs to be some context in 692 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 3: terms of was this snow deposited on the ground prior 693 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 3: to Elma going missing and it didn't snow sense? And 694 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 3: do these shoe impressions look like they've they've frozen? You know, 695 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 3: now that I live in Colorado, I'm seeing how I 696 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 3: can kind of sort of age you know, shoe impressions 697 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: as an example, when the snow gets compressed, it becomes 698 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 3: more dense and actually doesn't melt as fast as just 699 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 3: your general snow. So sometimes your your uncompressed snow will 700 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 3: will melt away. And now you see these frozen shoe 701 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 3: impressions as somebody's walking along, It's like, oh, okay, so 702 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 3: that occurred during this last snow potentially. 703 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 4: So this is. 704 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 3: Where in terms of assessing this witness, saying, okay, there's 705 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 3: multiple men's shoe impressions and this one horse sleigh track, 706 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 3: I want to know more to say, Can I put 707 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 3: that evidence contemporaneous around this well, or is this something 708 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 3: that occurred afterwards, because even though this is in a 709 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 3: high traffic area, we know some boys find the muff, 710 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 3: and there's also other people that are utilizing this well 711 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 3: for a variety of different reasons. 712 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 2: Right, again, this was just little bits of information that 713 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 2: eventually the investigators would use. I want to show you 714 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 2: a drawing of the area, and this is not where 715 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: the well was pictured. I do have a picture of 716 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: the well that I think will be very helpful for you. 717 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 2: So rural, there's some houses in and around, it's by 718 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 2: the water. Clearly this would be summertime. These are kind 719 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 2: of people out here just playing. But this is the 720 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: meadow area, and so I think that's where you're right, Andrew. 721 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 2: The man who saw the tracks just made note that 722 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 2: they were very close to the well, and what's the 723 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 2: point of them being that close? And then once we 724 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 2: get kind of closer to what happens at the well, 725 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: then I'll get your impression on if you've changed your 726 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 2: mind about any of this. She, again, as a reminder, 727 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 2: went missing on December twenty second. On January second, eleven 728 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 2: days later, her body is discovered inside the well and 729 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: it's carefully retrieved. Now I was confused. I don't understand 730 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: why they wouldn't have found this before. Before I show 731 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 2: you the photo, can you give me an easy explanation 732 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 2: for if this is a fairly big well, thinking this 733 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 2: is something that the New York Fire Department used, could 734 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: we see why this would be difficult in January to 735 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,479 Speaker 2: track down a body inside the well. 736 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 3: There's one obvious reason that stands out. You know, the 737 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 3: kids find the muff floating, right, It's something that is 738 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 3: detachable from her. Now she's she's got her presuming some 739 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 3: sort of wedding dress on. If she goes into this 740 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 3: well and it's cold out, the water is cold, of course, 741 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 3: it's going to be very cold. 742 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 4: It's groundwater. 743 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 3: She likely is going to sink, so she possibly is 744 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 3: not visible from the surface like the muff is. But 745 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 3: over time it's delayed because of the cold water. But 746 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: she's going to start to decompose, and as she decomposes, 747 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: the bacteria inside of her, inside her gut are producing gases, 748 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 3: and what happens with gases It bloats. 749 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 4: The body and the body will now float. 750 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 3: Okay, this is what I think is going on absent 751 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 3: more information, is that she sank initially and then through 752 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 3: decomposition with the gases, she became buoyant, floated to the surface, 753 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 3: and now she could be seen at the surface. 754 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty, a man who owned a business in 755 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: Soho did some renovations and he discovered the well, which 756 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,240 Speaker 2: had been around since the seventeen. 757 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 4: Hundreds in nineteen eighty. 758 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it has been authenticated. It's on display and here's 759 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 2: the well. 760 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 3: Now. 761 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: Of course you have to think a lot of it 762 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 2: was underground, of course at the time, but this is 763 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: a fairly large well. If you look at the boxes nearby, 764 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 2: easily it would fit several bodies, not just one body. 765 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 4: Right. 766 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 3: Well, this, at least with what I can see, is 767 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 3: that we are seeing the upper part of the well, 768 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 3: right and most of this likely was buried. 769 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 4: I imagine maybe. 770 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: Three feet would have been above ground and the rest 771 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 3: would have been, you know, sort of like the retaining wall. 772 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 3: As this well was built to be able to access 773 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 3: the ground water that is deeper. So its diameter looks like, 774 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 3: you know, as we get from the surface, maybe four 775 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 3: feet diameter, expanding out to five to six feet diameter, 776 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 3: and don't know, you know, in terms of you know, 777 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 3: how deep the total well was once you get into 778 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 3: where now it's just the ground that you're accessing, and 779 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 3: you're not putting any type of retaining structure inside this opening. 780 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 3: You know how deep did this well water go? But yeah, 781 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 3: it is a substantial This isn't a small well at all. 782 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,920 Speaker 3: It's easy for you know, multiple people to be able 783 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 3: to get in and out of the opening. 784 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: Of this Yeah. Absolutely, it's substantial. 785 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 2: And it's on display at a clothing store and soho 786 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 2: if you ever want to check it out. 787 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 4: Wow. 788 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 2: So once they get her out of this well, there 789 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: is a layers who has observations of her literally being 790 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 2: pulled out of the well. And then there's someone who 791 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 2: has a little bit more specific information who is a 792 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 2: physician kind of. So this is the lay person. This 793 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 2: is a guy named James Lint. This is what he said. 794 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: And what I want to know is this whole time, 795 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 2: you and I and the audience need to be thinking 796 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 2: of would these injuries be caused by a murder, a 797 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 2: potential suicide, or decomposition of the body because of being 798 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 2: in the water, or none of it? Okay, So this 799 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: is what he says. Her hat was off, her gown 800 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 2: torn open just above the waist, her shawl was off 801 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: her handkerchief and shoes were gone, her hair hung over 802 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 2: her head, and lifting her up, I found her head 803 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 2: fell forward, and when we lifted her a little bit back, 804 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 2: her head fell back again, and again it fell to 805 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: the right, which caused me to suppose that her neck 806 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 2: was broken. Does that sound right, broken neck? Based on 807 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 2: that description? 808 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 3: No, Okay, imagine this is eleven days later, rigor has passed. 809 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 3: She is going to be very loose, you know, in 810 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 3: terms of her body. And you know, we naturally aren't 811 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 3: used to interacting with people who are so limped, so 812 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 3: he could just be observing, you know, as her body shifts. 813 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 3: You know, her head is just rolling around on the 814 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 3: neck because she's not putting any type of resistance to it, 815 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 3: versus he's not describing anything to a point which would 816 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 3: indicate that it's going past normal anatomy of the neck. 817 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting the details that James Lint made because 818 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 2: he also talks about her clothing. He said she had 819 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: a white petticoat on. I discovered on her right hand 820 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,839 Speaker 2: something like a kick, So I don't know if he's 821 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 2: looking at a bruise or some sort of indentation. There 822 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 2: was the scratches of sand upon her skin, some of 823 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 2: which was knocked off and seemed to have been drove forward. 824 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Swalkings were torn at 825 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: the toes. 826 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: The right foot was bare and somewhat scratched. The scratches 827 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 2: were on the upper part of the foot, as if 828 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 2: she had been dragged to the ground. Her arms were 829 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 2: and her legs were straight, but her neck was remarkably limber. 830 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: So now back to rigor does that all fit for you? 831 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 3: When bodies are in water and submerged in water, imagine 832 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 3: being in a dead man's float and you're just kind 833 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 3: of floating there, face down, your hands are down, your 834 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 3: legs are somewhat down, and as that body is in 835 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 3: that position, it's moving back and forth. And is it 836 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 3: possible that it was rocky at the bottom of this well, 837 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 3: rocky sandy at the bottom of this well, et cetera, 838 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 3: to where you have just the natural motion of a 839 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 3: body somewhat suspended in a dead man's float, but at 840 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 3: the bottom. And now you're getting these abrasions due to 841 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 3: the body just rubbing up against the bottom. 842 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 2: Banging around in the wind and water. 843 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 3: And yeah, what this civilian witness is seeing about Elma's body. 844 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 3: For me, right now, I'm going I can't attribute that 845 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 3: to any type of violence that happened. On the surface, 846 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: this sounds consistent with a body that's been submerged in 847 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,240 Speaker 3: a body of water for a period of time. 848 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 2: Well, we'll have some physicians or more experts than James 849 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,879 Speaker 2: Lynt were who are going to testify in a little bit, 850 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 2: But right now, let's just say she was described as 851 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 2: being fully closed, but with terrible bruising across her neck 852 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 2: and her legs and her breasts and her arms from 853 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: We don't know whether or not it was a confrontation 854 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 2: or whether it was being in the well. What we 855 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 2: do know is that there was a corner's in quest 856 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 2: and the only two things they could determine was that 857 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 2: Elma was a victim of homicide and that she was 858 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 2: not pregnant at the time of her murder. 859 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: And that's it. 860 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 2: They couldn't determine anything else as of right now. 861 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 4: Did they give any more details about her injuries. 862 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,360 Speaker 1: No, just fully bruised. 863 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 2: We do have some people who are going to testify later, 864 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,040 Speaker 2: but they did not do a full examination, and I'll 865 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 2: tell you why in a minute. This murder once it 866 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 2: gets out into the newspapers, of course, completely shocked New Yorkers. 867 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 2: This is a middle class woman who has disappeared and 868 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 2: has now found dead in a well, which is about 869 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 2: as gruesome as you can think. It causes a huge sensation, 870 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 2: and again with the superlatives, historians consider this to be 871 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 2: the very first media circus. And every time somebody says that, 872 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 2: I always find a story that was a bigger media 873 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 2: circus that was even older. 874 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: So I don't believe those anymore. 875 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 2: When people declare the first serial killers the ones we know, 876 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:45,760 Speaker 2: I guess, but. 877 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you know, and I do want to just, 878 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,280 Speaker 3: you know, back up a little bit about her injuries. 879 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,440 Speaker 3: You mentioned the extensive bruising, like to her breasts and 880 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 3: other parts of her body. 881 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 4: You know that is of concern for me right now. 882 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 3: You know, than if let's say she falls down this 883 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,280 Speaker 3: well and this course is going to hit the sides 884 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:05,880 Speaker 3: of the well. 885 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 4: It's how deep this well is. 886 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 3: She's not if the well has any depth to it 887 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 3: with water, It's not like she's going to hit the 888 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 3: bottom of the well with any force. And I would 889 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 3: not expect the extensive bruising, at least the way I'm 890 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 3: imagining it as you described it. I just want to 891 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 3: put that out there as the amount of bruising is 892 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 3: a little concerning that the little bit of abrasions on 893 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 3: her hands and her feet right now, No, but the 894 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 3: bruising may be of concern. 895 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 1: Huge sensation. Everybody wants to know more about Elma. 896 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 2: And Catherine and Hope, who are at their boarding house 897 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 2: are sort of panicked because people are knocking on the 898 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 2: door wanting to know more about their border, and they 899 00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,360 Speaker 2: also are in mourning because they adored Elma. Levi is 900 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 2: being weird and they have no idea what happened to 901 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 2: their friend. What would be very customary would be for 902 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 2: them to open up the parlor of the house, display 903 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,279 Speaker 2: Elma's body and allow people to come in and pay 904 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,959 Speaker 2: their respects. For my first book, Death in the Air, 905 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 2: I had no idea why we have rooms that are 906 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 2: called living rooms. Do you know why they're called living rooms? 907 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 3: Well, I've always assumed it's just because that's where you know, 908 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 3: you would host guests and just kind of live, right, 909 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,879 Speaker 3: But you're going to tell me I'm wrong. 910 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I am going to tell you you're wrong. 911 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 2: So the parlor slash what we would say, is the 912 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 2: sitting room. Living room used to actually be called death 913 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 2: rooms traditionally, both in the UK and here, and it 914 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,880 Speaker 2: was for viewing dead family and you would have them 915 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,400 Speaker 2: people come in and they could stay up until a 916 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,800 Speaker 2: week in the room or longer I guess, if needed. 917 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,439 Speaker 2: And this is where you would have receptions. There were 918 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 2: no funeral parlors, but at the turn of the century 919 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 2: people realized we could take this out of the house 920 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 2: and start businesses. That's why funeral parlors are called funeral parlors. 921 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,919 Speaker 2: And in nineteen ten the Ladies Home Dreer, which I love, 922 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 2: said maybe we should no longer call these death rooms, 923 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,240 Speaker 2: maybe we call them living rooms. 924 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 1: Isn't that interesting? 925 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 4: That is? 926 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,320 Speaker 3: It never dawned on me that that's what was happening 927 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,879 Speaker 3: back then with the deceased. Now I'm just imagining, let's say, 928 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 3: like the state of Elma's body, you know, not being found, 929 00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:25,319 Speaker 3: even though she's in a refrigerated environment, she's not going 930 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,240 Speaker 3: to be in good shape eleven days later, and even 931 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 3: with embalming and stuff, she's not going to look good. 932 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,399 Speaker 4: She's not going to smell good. 933 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 3: You're not going to be wanting to eat dinner while 934 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,160 Speaker 3: Elma is laying in rest whatever that term is, in 935 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 3: the death room next door. You know, that's like doesn't 936 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 3: sit well with me. 937 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,280 Speaker 2: That's probably why they held it outside of the boarding 938 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 2: house so people could walk by. And they had thousands 939 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,239 Speaker 2: of people walk by to see this woman's body and 940 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 2: to pay their respects, including of course, a throng of 941 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 2: media included there. Now public's grief starts to turn toward anger, 942 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 2: which is pointed at Levi, who people presume is Elma's killer, 943 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 2: and they are forming lynch mobs and ready to hang 944 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 2: this guy. And pretty soon Levi Weeks is charged with 945 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 2: his fiance or girlfriend or whatever you want to call her, 946 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 2: her murder and as soon as he enters the courtroom, 947 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,319 Speaker 2: onlookers start screaming, crucify him. 948 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: One thing I want to. 949 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 2: Know, because this is such a big case, We're going 950 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 2: to make this a two parter based on what evidence 951 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 2: are we arresting Levi Weeks. And this is a very 952 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,120 Speaker 2: complicated case and the ending was surprising even for me. 953 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 3: Okay, well, you've kind of got me on the edge 954 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,919 Speaker 3: of my seat here, kind of looking forward to seeing 955 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 3: how this progresses, because you know, and from my perspective. 956 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 4: LEVI has some explaining to do. 957 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 2: I agree, I'll get you some answers next week. 958 00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 4: Sounds good. 959 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,440 Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for. 960 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 3: Our Sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot 961 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources. 962 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,280 Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi. 963 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson. 964 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum. 965 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 966 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,720 Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 967 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,160 Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 968 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 969 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 2: Bared Bones pod. 970 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 971 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 972 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now 973 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 974 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now