1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,640
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,320
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Jamie here with two notes at the top

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 2: of this week's episode. First, I am going on my

4
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 2: book tour across the US to celebrate the paperback release

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 2: of my book Raw Dog, The Naked Truth about Hot

6
00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,080
Speaker 2: Dogs next week, and I'm really excited to see everybody. Uh,

7
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 2: please come out if you live in these areas. All

8
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 2: readings are going to be free and hosted by good

9
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 2: friends of mine, and so I will be in Los Angeles,

10
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 2: I'll be in Louisville, Kentucky. I'll be in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Portland, Maine, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Richmond, Virginia,

11
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 2: and Pedaluma, California, starting a week from today. Full dates

12
00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 2: and details are at the link in the description, and

13
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,159
Speaker 2: I would love to see you there. Also, we released

14
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 2: this in a minisode last week, but this is your

15
00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 2: last week to send me your stories of times that

16
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 2: you have been the main character or just memories that

17
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,040
Speaker 2: you have with the changing Internet. So please send your

18
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 2: stories in voice memo form to me by Friday, May ninth,

19
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 2: that's this Friday, to the following email address small Ice

20
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,240
Speaker 2: Resurfacer at gmail dot com, and you just might be

21
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 2: featured on the show. In a couple of weeks. That's all.

22
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 2: And now the grand, grand grand finale of Haley Hawk

23
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:31,119
Speaker 2: to a Welch.

24
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 3: The sixteen.

25
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 4: Sixty Welcome back to sixteenth Minute, the podcast where we

26
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 4: talk to the main characters of the Internet to see

27
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 4: how they're a moment in the spotlight affected them and

28
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,080
Speaker 4: what that says about us and the Internet.

29
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 2: And this week we finish our look at Hailey Welch

30
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,840
Speaker 2: aka Hawk to a Girl, the main character of twenty

31
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 2: twenty four. After a shockingly fast run in the public eye.

32
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 2: Between the summer and winter of twenty twenty four, Hailey

33
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 2: went from an unknown who was confronted in the street

34
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,200
Speaker 2: by wanna be Girls go on Wild style influencers to

35
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 2: the face of a cryptoscam run by Howie Mandel's scumbag

36
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,880
Speaker 2: son in law. And whether you like her or not,

37
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 2: that sounds very overwhelming. And if you want to catch

38
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,000
Speaker 2: up on what happened with Hailey after this halt to

39
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 2: her career, which was marked by an SEC investigation, a

40
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: disastrous digital press conference and.

41
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 5: Who I'm going to go to bed and I'll see

42
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,000
Speaker 5: you guys tomorrow.

43
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 2: And a long subsequent digital silence, please check out our

44
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 2: previous episode where you'll learn what was happening behind the scenes.

45
00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 2: In these months of alleged silence, speculation ran wild that

46
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,839
Speaker 2: Haley would go to jail as a result of the investigation.

47
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 2: A few places speculated that she was pregnant or dead,

48
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 2: and many thought she would either voluntarily or just end

49
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 2: up having to return to her normal life in rural Tennessee,

50
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 2: where this time last year, at the time of this recording,

51
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 2: she was working in a local spring factory. And while

52
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,040
Speaker 2: it appeared that not just Hailey Welch but her entire

53
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 2: team were careful not to say anything publicly when the

54
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 2: investigation concluded, this didn't stop them from banking phase banking.

55
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,760
Speaker 2: One could even say a future episode of Talk toua

56
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,279
Speaker 2: while still on Jake Paul's Better Podcast network at this time,

57
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,320
Speaker 2: that seemed to want to serve as a what went

58
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 2: wrong kind of thing. I would say calling it an

59
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,359
Speaker 2: apology would be a huge stretch, as we unpacked in

60
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,560
Speaker 2: our last episode, but more of an attempt to express

61
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,159
Speaker 2: some light remorse and get the public back on her side.

62
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 2: Although this episode, as we discussed, still included ads for

63
00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,760
Speaker 2: cryptosports betting apps and seemed to reach the conclusion that

64
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,160
Speaker 2: Haley should be open to trying crypto again, but this

65
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,239
Speaker 2: time she should do it smarter. But this episode leaked

66
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,720
Speaker 2: in early February by Haley's team nearly two months before

67
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,720
Speaker 2: that SEC investigation closed, and it completely blew up in

68
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 2: their faces. Not only is Fayze Banks, a fellow government

69
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,720
Speaker 2: investigated cryptogrifter, furious that this episode of Talk to A

70
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:23,160
Speaker 2: came out beforehand. The public was not buying the attempted

71
00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 2: mia culpa in the slightest, so Haley and team went

72
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,360
Speaker 2: dark online again until late March, the week that TMZ

73
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,200
Speaker 2: published the following headline.

74
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 6: Hawk to A Girl off the hook for hawking mean coin.

75
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,279
Speaker 2: Incredible journalism and that is where you join us today.

76
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,279
Speaker 2: So let's hawk back to A. In late March twenty

77
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 2: twenty five, when the second act of Haley Welch's career

78
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,560
Speaker 2: was hard launched in the hopes of gaining not just

79
00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,800
Speaker 2: the forgiveness of the public that her team had defrauded

80
00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,080
Speaker 2: a few months earlier in an egregious crypto scam, but

81
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,359
Speaker 2: also recapture the same excitement that existed around her in

82
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 2: the early days of the Hawk to A meme. She

83
00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,159
Speaker 2: first teases this in a poorly rendered comedy sketch that

84
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 2: she posts to her Instagram in which she re enacts

85
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,320
Speaker 2: all the false rumors that existed around her during the

86
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 2: four months of sec induced.

87
00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 3: Silence breaking news.

88
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 6: Hailey clearly well to Gosh the hawk To a girl

89
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:30,360
Speaker 6: had died.

90
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 2: But what is suspiciously missing from this sketch is any

91
00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 2: direct mention of said crypto fraud investigation. The only reference

92
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,840
Speaker 2: to crypto or a scandal of any sort is a

93
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 2: short monologue joke clip pulled from Stephen Colbert. The results

94
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 2: of the investigation, which were no surprise during a Trump

95
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:59,840
Speaker 2: administration that had literally started selling their own meme coins

96
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 2: pre inauguration, were announced two days later, and the stage

97
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,200
Speaker 2: was set for an attempted hawk to a comeback, and

98
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 2: boy were their attempts Hailey and company, which at this

99
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,520
Speaker 2: point appears to be somewhat reduced. It is unclear the

100
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 2: size of the team, but definitely consists of her, of

101
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 2: her best friend Chelsea, who was also her co host

102
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,360
Speaker 2: on the Talk to A podcast, of a lawyer, and

103
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,920
Speaker 2: possibly some managers and publicists. But during this period of

104
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 2: time when they have not been cleared to speak publicly,

105
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 2: they are waiting in the wings to parlay this into

106
00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 2: whatever the next chapter is going to consist of. And

107
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 2: what I mean by this is that it was revealed

108
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 2: in late March that they were filming a documentary the

109
00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:58,520
Speaker 2: whole time from an Emmy winning streamer documentary factory called Bungalow,

110
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 2: who have released this documentaries about a lot of stuff,

111
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,800
Speaker 2: but including some pretty serious topics, Thirteen Days in Ferguson

112
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 2: and Little Richard, I Am Everything being their two most

113
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 2: successful projects. So it's clear that Haley's team cannot wait

114
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 2: to push Hailey, Welch and Hawk to A back into

115
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 2: the public eye after the SEC investigation closes, and so

116
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,520
Speaker 2: in the days to come, there are a bunch of

117
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:33,120
Speaker 2: very random feeling announcements made. There's the formal announcement of

118
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 2: the documentary.

119
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: I hope you all been enjoying the crazy stories about

120
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: my life unfold on social media. First I was dead,

121
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,280
Speaker 1: then pregnant, Now I'm wanted by Interpol and in jail.

122
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,800
Speaker 1: Luckily we've been working with Bungalow. Start spilling the tea

123
00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 1: and the truth is actually even more bizarre than you think.

124
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 2: There's also the announcement that the Talk to A podcast

125
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 2: will return with the confirmation of what I had suspected

126
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 2: because of not receiving my talk to A Change My

127
00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,200
Speaker 2: Life shirt, they had in fact severed ties with Jake

128
00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 2: Paul and the Better Network.

129
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,120
Speaker 6: Hailey Welch and Better Holdings Incorporated have mutually agreed to

130
00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 6: end their partnership regarding the Talk to A podcast and

131
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 6: wish each other well in their future endeavors. Better and

132
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 6: Welch said in a shared statement the podcast will instead

133
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,800
Speaker 6: be produced by Welch's own company sixteen Minutes.

134
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,280
Speaker 2: And as you'll hear, the word produced is quite generous,

135
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 2: but weirdest of all, Team Welch announces that she is

136
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 2: going to have a cameo in an upcoming Glenn Powell project.

137
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,200
Speaker 2: I truly do not know any other details about this

138
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 2: and find it very bizarre, but here is a bad

139
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 2: AI generated YouTube celebrity news channel insisting upon it.

140
00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,600
Speaker 7: Hallie Welch is reportedly back on the scene and doing

141
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 7: her thing in La La Land. The twenty two year

142
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 7: old meme queen who shot to fame as the Hawk

143
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 7: Tua Girl following a viral TikTok video, filmed a cameo

144
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 7: for Glenn Powell's upcoming show in Hollywood this past weekend

145
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 7: according to TMZ.

146
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,160
Speaker 2: So yeah, Haley's team is really throwing stuff at the

147
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,160
Speaker 2: wall here, which, to be fair, isn't incredibly different from

148
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 2: how her career was being run at the peak of

149
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 2: her relevance. But a flash in the pan star making

150
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,440
Speaker 2: a cameo in a B movie that's kind of a classic,

151
00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 2: that's the tale as old as time. But of these announcements,

152
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 2: the only thing given a date and a guaranteed release

153
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,200
Speaker 2: was talk to A And I couldn't help But wonder

154
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,679
Speaker 2: I couldn't help it. Wonder what was the new approach

155
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,480
Speaker 2: to the podcast going to be and would anyone still

156
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 2: want to listen to it? Because the more time that passes,

157
00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,160
Speaker 2: And unfortunately this is very common in these stories that

158
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 2: we cover on this show. People were moving on at

159
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 2: the time I'm writing and recording this. Coffee Zilla isn't

160
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,200
Speaker 2: making videos about Haley Welch anymore. And while I'm sure

161
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 2: those videos would get decent engagement, my guess is that

162
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 2: he hasn't bothered because algorithmically, when it comes to crypto malfeasance,

163
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:25,280
Speaker 2: he's got bigger fish to fry right now. Here are

164
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,200
Speaker 2: just some random clips from the last three months of

165
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 2: his content pumping.

166
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,760
Speaker 3: Dumps, why are they legal?

167
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 2: Today?

168
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,800
Speaker 8: Elon Musk and Joe Rogan are gonna tell us the answer.

169
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 3: The whole meme coin thing is, and we're gonna.

170
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,199
Speaker 8: Just jump into it now. I want to say it's

171
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,080
Speaker 8: an auspicious day. Not only are the Epstein files about

172
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 8: to be released, we also released Andrew and Tristan Taate.

173
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 8: They're free to leave Romania all because, according to the

174
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 8: Financial Times, the White House and government officials have been

175
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 8: pressuring Romania to let these.

176
00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 3: Poor persecuted influencers go.

177
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 8: Today I discovered there are AI ads running on YouTube

178
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 8: of me scamming people with AI and crypto. Truly my

179
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 8: worst nightmare reimagined. I thought it couldn't get worse.

180
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 2: And again, I would genuinely recommend his channel if you're

181
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,360
Speaker 2: interested in better understanding how these scams are being pulled off,

182
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 2: and I would also recommend my fellow cool Zone Media

183
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 2: friend ed Zitron on Better Offline. But the point is,

184
00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,119
Speaker 2: while a really good reporter, coffee Zilla is as beholden

185
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 2: to the algorithm as anybody, and it's possible that with

186
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 2: so much else going on in the world that Hailey

187
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 2: Welch isn't the algorithmic bait that she was six months

188
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,440
Speaker 2: ago at the time of this writing. And it feels

189
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 2: horrible to have written that down and to say that

190
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:02,120
Speaker 2: it feels so reductive, and it bums me out. And

191
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,719
Speaker 2: I started this show because I think that that is

192
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 2: a very sad tendency. But if you were a person

193
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 2: whose numbers are beholden too relevant current events, pok Tua

194
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,360
Speaker 2: didn't carry the same cultural relevance it did by the

195
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 2: time that the SEC and haw Coin settled in March

196
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, as they had just a couple months earlier.

197
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 2: And that's for a number of reasons. Haley's career burned

198
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,280
Speaker 2: bright and fast, and she didn't have a history as

199
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 2: a public figure prior to hawk Tua and didn't have

200
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,640
Speaker 2: anything else for people to glom onto. And even less likely,

201
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,199
Speaker 2: she went viral, and some might argue went more viral

202
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 2: than usual because it was an election year. And if

203
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 2: the result of that election year is enthusiastically pulling a

204
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 2: scam that someone in the White House would do just

205
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 2: a few weeks later, that's a lot of noise to

206
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,800
Speaker 2: yell over. And it's only if you want to. When

207
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,560
Speaker 2: I was finishing our first series on Haley and the

208
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,559
Speaker 2: Hawk to a saga, she was still, for lack of

209
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 2: a better phrase, taking a nap, and it was intentionally

210
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,080
Speaker 2: unclear whether she wanted to forge ahead with a career

211
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,840
Speaker 2: in social media or if she was going to take

212
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,840
Speaker 2: stock say hey, this year was fucked up, and then

213
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 2: buy a house and pack it in. As soon as

214
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 2: the SEC declared her innocent. A part of me kind

215
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 2: of hoped that she would a lot of people, myself included,

216
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 2: thought it seemed pretty clear that Haley was being used

217
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,000
Speaker 2: by some pretty lazy, half assed schemers, whether that be

218
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,360
Speaker 2: Howie Mandel's failed musician son in law turned crypto moron,

219
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 2: or Jake Paul, a man who bravely kicked an old

220
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 2: rapist ass on live TV and wasn't even proud of

221
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,040
Speaker 2: it for the right reason. The speculation around Haley Welch

222
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,200
Speaker 2: was complicated, but by the time Talk to A relaunched

223
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 2: on April eighth, twenty twenty five, people had moved on.

224
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 2: Hailey hadn't gotten any better at interviewing. The set independent

225
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,000
Speaker 2: of Jake Paul's Better Network was completely unedited and lo fi,

226
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 2: and while I'd say the only improvement on the show

227
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 2: is fully putting Chelsea in the second chair. Good call.

228
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 2: It is still a really boring show.

229
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, okay, well, welcome back to another episode of

230
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 5: Talk to Him. It's been a hot minute since we've

231
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 5: been back here. But now where the official owners have

232
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 5: talk to Him and we may or may not have

233
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,480
Speaker 5: flowd to London to get a very special guest for you.

234
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 2: We got Ksi Yo yeall, and as before, the more

235
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 2: experienced in media guests kind of starts to interview Hailey

236
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,720
Speaker 2: when she fails to interview them, and unfortunately the guest

237
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: whose name you just heard, like Phase Banks, does warrant

238
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 2: some introduction. Ksi or jj Olatunji is one of these

239
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 2: fucking guys too. He started online as a popular gaming

240
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 2: streamer as a history of sexist and racist comments, and

241
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,680
Speaker 2: of course eventually parlays the millions of mostly children consuming

242
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,840
Speaker 2: his slop into a string of influencer staples. This means

243
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 2: professional boxing, alternative rivalries, and business partnerships with various Paul Brothers.

244
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,920
Speaker 2: This means insidiously marketed products to children, and of course

245
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,320
Speaker 2: this means promoting a pump and dump crypto scheme. In

246
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 2: early twenty twenty four.

247
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 9: KSI is one of the world's most popular YouTubers, but

248
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 9: yesterday he accidentally exposed the pump and dump crypto scams

249
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 9: that he promoted. They've been hidden from two years, but

250
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 9: only came out when KSI logged back into his old

251
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 9: Twitter account, saying does this still work?

252
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 2: And if you're wondering, was that coffee Zilla busting KSI? Yeah?

253
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 2: I don't know how he does it. He's busted everybody,

254
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,160
Speaker 2: but crypto scams of any kind don't really come up

255
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 2: in the return of Talk to which, as Haley is

256
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 2: quick to mention, is now owned by her company, not

257
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 2: Jake Paul's.

258
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:34,000
Speaker 10: This I know is gonna annoy j Poole definitely, but

259
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,080
Speaker 10: I'm glad you're free from his grasp. I'm not able

260
00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:43,120
Speaker 10: to flourish and be WHOA one of the best podcasts.

261
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 5: And Butterfly, Yeah, beautiful Butterfly.

262
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 2: What's the beef with Jake Paul?

263
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 11: I mean it's been going on for years. Man.

264
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,639
Speaker 2: With all due respect to KSI, and my understanding is

265
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 2: there is very little do The commenters on the new

266
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 2: Talk to A episode on YouTube appear to be in

267
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 2: agreement that his appearing on her show is a sign

268
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,399
Speaker 2: that Haley's career may be on its last legs. The

269
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 2: podcast was filmed in London, and the winking in reason

270
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 2: that Ksi as the guest appears to be because he

271
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 2: has a fairly long standing feud with Jake Paul in

272
00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: spite of the fact that he is in business with

273
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 2: Logan Paul on two of the most disgusting products on

274
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 2: shelves today, those being Prime Energy. Up this morning, there's

275
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 2: a new warning for parents and kids about energy drinks.

276
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 12: Maybe you've seen Prime Energy on social media.

277
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

278
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 4: Brandy Smith explains why the drink is getting so much

279
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:42,640
Speaker 4: negative attention.

280
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 2: Schools are actually banning it and Lunchly the Lunchibles with

281
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: mold but.

282
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,040
Speaker 12: Closely because mister Beast is disgusted by his own product, Lunchly.

283
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 2: And it got worse when this woman bought Lunchley to

284
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,560
Speaker 2: try it for the first time and there was mold inside.

285
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: This is molded. That's mold and as will become relevant,

286
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 2: gays I is on the similar Paul Brothers path of

287
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 2: starting as a famous gaming streamer. And by the way,

288
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 2: I thought it was funny that he talks about playing

289
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 2: FIFA in a video game as if he is a

290
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: professional soccer player himself. Does streamers do that? That was

291
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:24,719
Speaker 2: the first thing you got like really known for.

292
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,200
Speaker 11: Oh FIFA.

293
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 10: So FIFA is like a football game or soccer game

294
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 10: where you passed the ball around the pitch and then

295
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 10: you put it in the net.

296
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 11: H No, I did not come home.

297
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 3: You just played it nice.

298
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 10: I played the game, yeah, yeah, and then I just

299
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,439
Speaker 10: make various videos on it and it just went viral.

300
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,439
Speaker 2: I found that very distracting. What I was saying is

301
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,400
Speaker 2: that Gaysi has done celebrity boxing, first against Logan Paul

302
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,159
Speaker 2: at the Staples Center in LA in twenty nineteen, but

303
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 2: really outside of knowing that he is also one of

304
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 2: these guys and that it appears that the new strategy

305
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 2: of the podcast is to bring on people who will

306
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 2: not challenge Haley and also do not like Jake Paul,

307
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 2: there's not much to say. The rest of the interview

308
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 2: is about Kosi's career, some awkward flirtation, and Hailey speculating

309
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 2: on what's next for her without addressing why she was

310
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: in trouble in her career to begin with. Folks, the

311
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 2: podcast is boring and the episode itself is devoid of

312
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 2: any remaining sponsors, except for surprisingly, Haley's pet rescue nonprofit

313
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 2: PAUS Across America. Honestly surprised they're still going. I hope

314
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,679
Speaker 2: they're doing good things. But that is all there is

315
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,199
Speaker 2: to report about the returning episode of Talk To. And

316
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 2: worst of all, the episode ends like this, thank you.

317
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you for coming on.

318
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 11: Thank you. Of course, is.

319
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 2: It even talk TOUA if Haley doesn't ask KSI what

320
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 2: he does in bed to make a woman go crazy?

321
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 2: I was not impressed with the return of talk To,

322
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 2: and I was not alone there, because, as I'm writing this,

323
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 2: around a week after the episode launched on YouTube, it

324
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,160
Speaker 2: only has about sixty thousand views, compared to the height

325
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: of two point eight million views while on the Better

326
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: Network just six months ago, or Coffee Zilla's four million

327
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,400
Speaker 2: views for criticizing her just two months ago. The episodes

328
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 2: of the podcast that have come out since have done

329
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 2: even worse, and while they do reveal more information about

330
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 2: what Haley and Chelsea were pursuing during those months of

331
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: the SEC investigation interim, including a reality show, there's not

332
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,119
Speaker 2: much to go on. But as a loyal listener, I

333
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: have consumed every goddamn second and I wanted to just

334
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: share this sentence that made me laugh so much from

335
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 2: guest Chanelle West Coast, but I really wanted to collaborate

336
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 2: with Drake.

337
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 13: I just did Drake's dad's podcast like two weeks ago.

338
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: Actually, his dad his dad's a podcast.

339
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 13: Yes, his dad is the funniest guy ever. You guys

340
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 13: have to meet him.

341
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 2: That is the worst brag I've ever heard in my life.

342
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: But that's about all I have to say about the

343
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: podcast outside of that. And that video only got twelve

344
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 2: thousand views in two days. So Hailey's company, which I

345
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 2: will remind you is called sixteen Minutes, now owns the

346
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 2: IP or talk to A. But if this is any indication,

347
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 2: does that mean anything? Honestly, I don't think so. And

348
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 2: so while it's safe to say that Haley has technically

349
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,479
Speaker 2: survived the court of public opinion and that she didn't

350
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: experience a legal consequence, I'd be surprised if she manages

351
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: to get the relevance she had back without the support

352
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 2: of a big internet piece of shit goliath like a

353
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 2: Paul Brother propping her up. While I very much doubted

354
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: that the hawkcoin team would get into much trouble given

355
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: the administration and the increasing lack of regulation around crypto.

356
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: I did want to understand how this was possible, because

357
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 2: for the time being, this is a grift that has

358
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: reached the highest levels of government. So are we going

359
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: to see more of it? And how, besides staying the

360
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: fuck away from crypto, can we protect ourselves when we

361
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: come back. Investigator John Reid Stark explains why there was

362
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: never a chance in hell that miss Haley was going

363
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 2: to jail. Welcome back to sixteenth minute. I fell asleep

364
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: on a plane this morning and was woken up by

365
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 2: the person next to me because I was literally man

366
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: spreading what who am I when I go to sleep? Embarrassing?

367
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 2: I am sorry to her. And here is my interview

368
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: with John Reid Stark.

369
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 12: My name's John Stark. I'm an attorney, a cyber attorney.

370
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 12: I've been practicing law for but thirty five forty years now.

371
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 12: Went to Duke Law School, then started working at a

372
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 12: law firm, and then I joined the SEC in nineteen

373
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 12: ninety one, and then I went on a detail to

374
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 12: the US Attorney's Office and did street crimes, guns, drugs,

375
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 12: and domestic violence for a little bit that I came

376
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 12: back to the SEC and started doing cyber in nineteen

377
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 12: ninety four, became the Special Counsel for Internet Projects at

378
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 12: the US Securities and Exchange Commission in the Division of Enforcement,

379
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 12: and then started teaching securities regulation and technology at Georgetown

380
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 12: Law School around that time.

381
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 3: And after that it just kept growing and growing and growing, and.

382
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 12: In nineteen ninety eight they decided to create an office,

383
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 12: and I was the founder of the office, the Office

384
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 12: of Internet Enforcement. It was a first specialized group in

385
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 12: the history of the SEC. And that was nineteen ninety

386
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 12: eight and I was made the chief and threw that

387
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 12: office to a great group of attorneys, enforcement lawyers and

388
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 12: ran it for about eleven years, a little more than

389
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 12: eleven years, and then I left there to lead the

390
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 12: Office of Stras Friedberg, which was a data breach response firm,

391
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 12: cybersecurity firm, forensic digital forensic firm, and ran their DC

392
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 12: office for most of the next five years. And then

393
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 12: Stras Freedberg got bought by AON, so I left and

394
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 12: started my own firm, John Reed start consulting in twenty

395
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 12: fifteen sort of does anything.

396
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 3: I don't have anything to do with crypto.

397
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 12: I don't have any financial interest in crypto, nothing short,

398
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 12: nothing long. Started writing about it in twenty seventeen because

399
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 12: I was doing a lot of ransomware cases and I realized,

400
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 12: but for bitcoin, there would be no ransomware. Ransomware is

401
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 12: when a firm gets attacked and they have to pay

402
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 12: in order to get to decrypt their data or to

403
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 12: stop a company a cyber attacker from name and shaming

404
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 12: them from publishing their data. So yeah, you realize that

405
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 12: suddenly these payments which were growing. So I started writing

406
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 12: about it in twenty seventeen when President Trump, Maxiine Waters,

407
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 12: and Hillary Clinton had one thing in common. They all

408
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 12: hated crypto and thought it was a terrible thing and ridiculous,

409
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 12: And we're in on the record saying that they didn't

410
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 12: want anything to do with it. So I thought it

411
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 12: was a non partisan issue back then, but it's not anywhere.

412
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 2: First, well, thank you so much for being on our

413
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: hawk Tua. I really appreciate it. In the last couple

414
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 2: of months, you know, as Trump has become you know,

415
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: nothing but pro crypto. Of course, it's not really talked

416
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: about very much that this is a change. Can you

417
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 2: sort of walk me through what that change looked like

418
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: and why it happened.

419
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

420
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 12: It was something that I predicted a couple of years back,

421
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 12: because the crypto community, it's if not for the fact

422
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 12: that they love crypto. I love the community, and there's

423
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 12: a lot of irony in crypto, which you I think

424
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 12: would appreciate more than more than most people. Is for example, right,

425
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 12: crypto was created to decentralize after the financial crisis of

426
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 12: two thousand and eight. Crypto was said, let's take away

427
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 12: from the power from the big banks and let's find

428
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 12: something where we can go peer to peer ourselves. We

429
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 12: don't need these big banks in the middle. Well, what

430
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 12: do we have today. We've replaced the big banks with

431
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 12: a bunch of big crypto companies.

432
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 14: So that's right.

433
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: The number two one. The President talks about.

434
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 12: This new bitcoin reserve, that strategic preserve that the government's

435
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 12: going to have.

436
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: But if you look into.

437
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 12: The details, what's in that reserve are assets, crypto assets

438
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 12: that have been seized in accordance with asset forfeiture laws,

439
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 12: which any libertarian will tell you asset forfeiture laws are

440
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 12: the most anti libertarian laws you could have, in the

441
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 12: sense that this is crypto taken from people who've been arrested.

442
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: They haven't been convicted.

443
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 12: Of anything, and their crypto was seized like any other

444
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 12: asset forfeiture. It's never an area, as a former criminal prosecutor,

445
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 12: that I thought was appropriate. So sure, anyway, you can

446
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 12: see lots of different ironies in crypto, but the idea

447
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 12: was that I think initially that this crypto was going

448
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 12: to undermine the dollar, that it was. No private currency

449
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 12: has ever worked, and the intermediary is critical for the

450
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 12: consumer and it's critical for the government. There's about a

451
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 12: dozen or so anti money laundering laws that essentially tell

452
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 12: you that you have no right to financial privacy. And

453
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 12: I don't like that, and you don't like that. No

454
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 12: one likes that. But this is the reality, and the

455
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 12: Anti Money Laundering Act, the Bank Secrecy Act, the USA

456
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 12: Patriot Act after nine to eleven, this is how the

457
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 12: government gets bad guys. They cut off the way that

458
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 12: they can use and spend money. And that means that

459
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 12: you go into the bank and if you withdraw ten

460
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 12: thousand dollars more than ten thousand dollars, that'll trigger a

461
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 12: suspicious activity report.

462
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: If you do something weird, that'll.

463
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 12: Trigger a suspicious activity report, and your activities will be

464
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 12: reported to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and a criminal

465
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 12: prosecutor or the SEC might start looking at all your

466
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 12: financial records because of that. And that's just that might

467
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 12: be something you disagree with, and I respect that. So

468
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 12: you can go to the government and say, hey, let's

469
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 12: change those laws. But those are the laws that are

470
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 12: on the books right now. So crypto essentially bypasses all

471
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 12: of those laws. So, as someone said in one of

472
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 12: my spaces the other day, I love crypto. I can

473
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 12: take five million dollars worth of it and go on

474
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 12: a plane and go anywhere in the world that I

475
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 12: want and no one will know the difference. And so yeah,

476
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 12: well that's not supposed to be allowed. So that's why,

477
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 12: you know. So I think with respect to crypto, most

478
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 12: people were against it. It's created incredible amounts of crime,

479
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 12: drug dealing, child pornography, human sex, trafficking, ransomare attacks. North

480
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 12: Korea has a stolen more than six billion dollars worth

481
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 12: of crypto and is using it to finance their nuclear

482
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 12: weapons operation.

483
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: Why care about it?

484
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 12: What utility does it have? It went away tomorrow? Would

485
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 12: anyone care?

486
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: You compare this moment with regards to crypto, but just

487
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: also with the sec and where the economy is at

488
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: in general to the nineteen twenties. Can you tell me

489
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: a little bit more about that, because I know that

490
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: that sets off alarm bells and virtually anyone who knows

491
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: about the stock market cris.

492
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 12: Sure if you look at any of the financial crises,

493
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 12: whether it was a subprime crisis or the depression after

494
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 12: the twenty nine Here's what happened.

495
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: In the twenties, right, there was everybody everything.

496
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 12: Was unregulated, and buying socks and bonds was like, you know,

497
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 12: buying clothes at Target.

498
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: There was no nobody protecting you or anything.

499
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 12: So what happened was there was this terrible crash and

500
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 12: it impacted everyone.

501
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: And created this big depression.

502
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 12: So the government sort of said, you know what, when

503
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 12: it comes to investments, we're going to be different.

504
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 3: It's not going to be like buying anything else.

505
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 12: So they enacted the nineteen thirty three Act, the Securities

506
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 12: Acted in nineteen thirty three, which essentially said, hey, if

507
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 12: you're going to raise money for an investment, you have

508
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 12: to register with the sec. Then they passed the thirty

509
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 12: four Act, the Securities in Exchange Act of thirty four,

510
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 12: and they said Hey, if you're going to create a

511
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 12: platform to transact in these investments, then you have to

512
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 12: register with the SEC, and you have to be subject

513
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 12: to audit, inspection and examination, net capital requirements, all kinds

514
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 12: of disclosure, licensure of your individuals.

515
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: So that's a thirty four accent.

516
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 12: And then the forty Act said, hey, if you're going

517
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 12: to bundle all this stuff into mutual fund or if

518
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 12: you're going to give people advice about securities and about

519
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 12: investments they should buy, you have to register as well.

520
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 12: So all of these big registration which are credibly onerous.

521
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 12: It's very difficult to register with the SEC. Whether it's

522
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 12: an offering or whether you're a platform or anyone else,

523
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 12: you're going to subject yourself to this financial colunoscopy at

524
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 12: the whenever the SEC wants, either routine or fore cause.

525
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 12: But it's been pretty good, if you generally go back

526
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 12: to all since that time, there have been a few

527
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 12: bumps in the road, but generally the economy has flourished,

528
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 12: and this sort of environment of heavy regulation has kept

529
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 12: most people honest and has also given the consumer, the customer,

530
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 12: all sorts of avenues if they get scammed, you know,

531
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 12: they can reach out to the SEC. They can reach

532
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 12: out to state regulators, they can reach out to the FBI.

533
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 12: Everybody has jurisdiction over these entities who are So if

534
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 12: they wake up in the morning like the Celsius Block

535
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 12: five Voyager FTX investors did, and they can't access their

536
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 12: money anymore, imagine the panic that they felt. And you

537
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 12: can read the Celsius Celsius especially the investors submitted these

538
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 12: affidavits and you can read how terrible it is. That

539
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 12: was what my life was like at the SEC for

540
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 12: the twenty or so years that.

541
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: I was there.

542
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 12: I talked with investors who'd lost their life savings all

543
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 12: the time, and that you start to realize there's no

544
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,239
Speaker 12: standard composite or profile for those kinds of people. They

545
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 12: can be sophisticated, they can be unsophisticated. They've all what

546
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 12: they have in common is that they let their guard down.

547
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 12: Maybe they got greedy, maybe they want to get rich quick.

548
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 12: Maybe like the Madoff investors, they only wanted one percent

549
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 12: over prime.

550
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: They weren't greedy, so they had comforting that.

551
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: So that was something that really struck me about when

552
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: I was speaking with Molly and Ed a couple of

553
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 2: months ago about crypto of how you know, the majority

554
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: of crypto users, it's not quite an active desperation, but

555
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: it's someone with a little bit of pocket cash trying

556
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: to turn a little money in to more money because

557
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: it's hard to exist. And how many like normal people

558
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: end up getting scammed.

559
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 12: That's the point, Jamie, is it's always the working person

560
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 12: who gets scammed. In the end, everybody else gets away

561
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 12: with it. The best example, you know, i live in Washington,

562
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 12: d C. In the DMV, and I'm a Washington Wizards fan,

563
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 12: and I've been a Wizards fan for whatever thirty or

564
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 12: thirty five years. It's been torture, okay for myself and

565
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 12: my family. But the good news is I know all

566
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 12: the people who work at the Wizards games because I've

567
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 12: been going to these games forever. So my son and

568
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 12: I are in the elevator and we see two of

569
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 12: the security guards and they're like, hey, Sark, I saw

570
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 12: you on sixty Minutes because I was talking about this

571
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 12: stuff on sixty Minutes a few months ago, and I said, yeah, yeah,

572
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 12: did you watch it? And they're like, oh, well, you know,

573
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 12: I didn't see it until the end. It was something

574
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 12: about crypto. What were you talking about I said, well,

575
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 12: you know, it's a dangerous investment. There's nothing to it.

576
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 12: There's no there's no substitute. It's all fear of missing.

577
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 12: And they kind of looked at me, both of them,

578
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 12: and they were like, but we heard it was a

579
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 12: great thing to get into. So we both invested and

580
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 12: I was like, all right, guys, look, I'm not here

581
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 12: to tell you what to invest in.

582
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: Or what not to invest in, but do you understand

583
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: what it is? Do you know what it is that

584
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: you're buying?

585
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 12: And they both like, we have no idea, And I said, well,

586
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 12: start with no, right, start with that promise. If you

587
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 12: don't know what it is and you can't articulate what

588
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 12: it is, then don't invest in it. That seems like

589
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 12: a pretty basic notion that people have completely forgotten about

590
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 12: with this emperor has no close, no shit of crypto.

591
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: I'm curious you also write in your editorial about and

592
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 2: something that I'm trying to understand better too, is you know,

593
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: just three months ago or three or four months ago,

594
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: is having conversations about MS Talktua Haley Welch, who had

595
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: a meme coin launched on her behalf. She was the

596
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: face of it. She was pushing it and there was

597
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 2: a rug pull. It seems like there has been a

598
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: lot that's happened since then, because when I was doing

599
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: these interviews, people were like, well, maybe she will be

600
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 2: made an example of by the SEC. You know, like

601
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: this could be because it was getting so much press.

602
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: Maybe this is a chance for someone to be made

603
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: an example of. So I mean, from your perspective, what

604
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: has been happening with the SEC in the last couple

605
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: of months that's giving you such pause.

606
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 12: Well, it's really incredible, and I'm not being hyperbolic.

607
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 3: I'm not exaggerating.

608
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 12: I'm a bit of an SEC historian, having worked there

609
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 12: for twenty years and taught securities regulation for both at

610
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 12: Georgetown and Duke, and really study the agency. The about

611
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 12: face that the agency has done on crypto and this

612
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 12: radical turnabout is unprecedented in SEC history. So I'll give

613
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 12: you some of the basic things that they've done. First

614
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 12: of all, in the last three or four years, the

615
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 12: SEC has brought over two hundred enforcement actions. The SEC

616
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 12: is like any other civil litigants. They bring cases when

617
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 12: somebody violates the security laws, and their civil actions you

618
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 12: can refer it to criminal authorities. Which in our office

619
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 12: we often did and have parallel actions. The SEC is

620
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 12: a civil agency, so they bring their cases. They bring

621
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 12: them in federal court in front of Article three judges,

622
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 12: which are judges set by the Constitution who have life tenure,

623
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 12: and they get to rule on whether the SEC is

624
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 12: right or wrong about whatever they think, whether they think

625
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,959
Speaker 12: something is a security where they have jurisdiction. Those things

626
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 12: all go to judges. So the SEC had filed over

627
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 12: two hundred of those enforcement actions, and in my mind,

628
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 12: they have won every single one of them. Okay, now

629
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 12: that is unprecedented. Now you might say, well, John, I

630
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 12: don't necessarily believe you. Well, I spoke at the SEC

631
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 12: roundtable recently and I put together an eighty nine page

632
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 12: statement and in those eighty nine single space is a

633
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 12: section where I go over every single case the SEC

634
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 12: has litigated with respect to digital assets. I explain what

635
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,800
Speaker 12: the ruling is is, I pull out the excerpts, and

636
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 12: I'm telling you the SEC has won every time Telegram, Kick,

637
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 12: Lbry Crack and coinbase Finance, win after win after win

638
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 12: after win, and they'd been and these were filed that

639
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 12: there were eighty or ninety them filed under J Clayton,

640
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 12: who was President Trump's original SEC chair appointz. He's now

641
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 12: the new US Attorney for New York, for the Southern

642
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 12: District of York. But ninety of those cases, eighty or

643
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 12: ninety of them were filed under a Republican administration.

644
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: So then a democratic administrator.

645
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 12: Came in and they created a crypto unity even they

646
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 12: started bringing these cases in. Oh my gosh, was the

647
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 12: SEC winning. It's one thing to win the cases when

648
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 12: you're at the SEC. We won I think all of

649
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 12: our cases when I was at the SC. But I

650
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 12: never had cases against big law firms who were being

651
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 12: paid tens of million dollars to fight against. But that's

652
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 12: the way it was that the SEC. The SEC would

653
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 12: bring these cases. These people would hire former SEC enforcement directors.

654
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 12: They would litigate these cases with volumes and volumes of motions,

655
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 12: massive discovery, and judges as a result, whether they were

656
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 12: citing a motion to dismiss, which is when the SEC

657
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 12: files the case, someone might say, you know what, no

658
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 12: matter what you say, we didn't violate any laws, so

659
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 12: this case should be dismissed.

660
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 3: That's the motion to dismiss.

661
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 12: Then later on after discovery, they say, look, no, matter

662
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 12: what you found, there's been no violation.

663
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 3: That's summary judgment.

664
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 12: So the SEC was winning on motions to dismiss and

665
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 12: summary judgment because all these defenders were saying digital assets

666
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 12: are not securities, and judges were all saying, yes they are.

667
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 12: Whether they're initial coin offerings, whether they're simple agreements for

668
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 12: future tokens staffs, whether they're staking products, whether they're lending products,

669
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 12: whether they're celebrity endorsement products, whether they're intermediaries trading digital assets,

670
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 12: whether they all should be registered as exchanges, as broker dealers,

671
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 12: as clearing firms. SEC is winning every single time, and

672
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 12: the judges are these opinions that are one hundred pages long,

673
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 12: like the Krack and decision one hundred pages long.

674
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: Not for nothing. I mean this happening under not just

675
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 2: like a democratic and a Republican administration, but literally under

676
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: a previous Trump administration. It just like, yes, I don't know,

677
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: so brain, brain, right.

678
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 12: So here's what happened. So the SEC is on a role.

679
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 12: They're suing everybody. Every day there's a new new decision,

680
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 12: every day, there's a new lawsuit. All of these companies

681
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 12: are running, are fighting back, and it's kind of interesting

682
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 12: because the SEC action used to be.

683
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: A scarlet letter.

684
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 12: You know, if you were hit by the SEC, don't

685
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 12: expect to do business with anybody ever again because I

686
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 12: think of that kind of thing. Well, they were wearing

687
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 12: it like a badge of honor. Like this rogue SEC

688
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 12: has come after us their regulation through enforcement. They're using

689
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 12: all these strange little catchphrases. But this is how the

690
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 12: SEC brings cases. There's no such thing as regulation by enforcement.

691
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 12: There's just enforcement. You bring cases insider trading, derivatives fraud,

692
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 12: unibond fraud, foreign payments fraud, whatever it is, you bring

693
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 12: it under their anti fraud provision. So the SEC are

694
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 12: winning all these cases. All of a sudden, President Trump

695
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 12: wins reelection. Acting chair Markuaeda takes over at the SEC,

696
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 12: and he and Hester Purse, both of whom I knew

697
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 12: when I was a staff attorney there, especially Hester pers

698
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 12: I knew her pretty well. They had been dissenting on

699
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 12: all these cases the SEC was bringing, but the SEC,

700
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 12: the majority of the SEC commissioners were saying to bring them,

701
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 12: and again they were winning everyone in court. All of

702
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 12: a sudden, Mark you Ada comes in. Three things happen.

703
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 12: Four things happen. Number one, he dismisses all the appeals,

704
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 12: any appeal the SEC had anything like that. Gone number two,

705
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 12: he dismisses or pauses every single crypto related enforced action period.

706
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 12: Gone number three, he closes every major crypto investigation, maybe

707
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 12: even more. I don't know how many he's closed because

708
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 12: it's non public, but the ones that are public, they're all,

709
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 12: you know, so excited because they're all suddenly they've transformed.

710
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this story we're covering is probably

711
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: a part of that wave where it just went away

712
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: exactly February.

713
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: Exactly, so Haktua swept up in that wave.

714
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 12: And then the third the fourth thing, so appeals, appeals,

715
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 12: active litigation, investigations has three different categories, all gone zippo.

716
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: Disappeared as if they never happened.

717
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 12: Then the crypto unit, which the SEC had beefed up

718
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 12: and celebrated with all kinds of fanfare, is shut down

719
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 12: and is given a new name called the cyber Unit.

720
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 12: The head of that crypto unit, who was the head

721
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 12: of litigation, who had won all these cases, was on

722
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 12: all the litigation. He was transferred to the Office of

723
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 12: Information Technology. I don't know what he's doing there. He's

724
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 12: like fixing prints, are picking out drivers for printers. He's gone,

725
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 12: he's disappeared gone. There was one, There were two co

726
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 12: heads of the crypto unit. One of them disappeared gone.

727
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 12: At least twenty or thirty people in the crypto unit

728
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 12: disappeared gone. I don't know if they've retired. I don't

729
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 12: know what they're doing the new cyber unit. She spoke

730
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 12: at our conference last week, and very nice lady Laura Delandria.

731
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 3: I think it's her name of Delaired.

732
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 12: Delaired might pronounce it wrong, and she really spoke about

733
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 12: what they're not doing, which is, you know, we're not

734
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 12: bringing these kinds of cases, we're not doing this kind

735
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 12: of work. We're working towards retail investors. I'm not sure

736
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 12: what she meant by that, but all I can tell you.

737
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 12: And then the SEC started issuing these regulatory pronouncements. Some

738
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 12: of them they just would put on Twitter on X

739
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 12: and they would have said they said. One of them

740
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 12: was mean coins are not securities. Boom overdone so any

741
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 12: meme coin and that was done, you know, you know,

742
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 12: I don't know. A week or two after President Trump

743
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 12: and Milania Trump had launched their Mean coin.

744
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: So the SEC said, are not securities?

745
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: That blows my mind.

746
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 12: Yeah, let's be clear here though. You know, President Trump

747
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 12: campaigned to be the bitcoin president. He campaigned to throw

748
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 12: out Gary Gensler. He campaigned to make the United States

749
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 12: the crypto capital of the world. And he's he's this

750
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 12: is a promise made and a promise kept. You can't

751
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 12: disagree with that. He was very clear what he was

752
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 12: going to do. These crypto firms, they weren't winning in court,

753
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 12: but they spent about two hundred million to win the

754
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 12: elections and they did.

755
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 3: They did it brilliantly.

756
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 12: They destroyed anyone who was anti crypto, just about everyone.

757
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 12: I mean, I think Elizabeth Warren survived. A few of

758
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 12: them survived, but most of them did not survive. And

759
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 12: so this is the president's mandate. You can't disagree with

760
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 12: that notion.

761
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 3: I don't like it. You know, it's bad for the world.

762
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's certainly been successful.

763
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 3: He said this is what he's going to do, and

764
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: he's doing it, so, you know, and he's doing it

765
00:44:59,200 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: through the SEC.

766
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 12: Now, the SEC historically has never done this kind of

767
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 12: turnaround on anything ever, So it's very and mean coins

768
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 12: is a perfect sample now one thing about mean points

769
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 12: that I would say.

770
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 3: So recently there was an article.

771
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 12: It was just about everywhere about if you bought the

772
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 12: president's meme coin, and you were one of the top

773
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 12: two hundred and twenty purchasers of his meme coin, then

774
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 12: you would get access to a special party he was

775
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 12: having and get a tour of the White House. Now

776
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 12: you know, here's the irony of this. Again more irony,

777
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 12: which again I've studied you, so I know how much

778
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 12: you love irony. Okay, so this is another great one.

779
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 12: So my view has always been crypto has no utility,

780
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 12: that if it went away tomorrow, blockchain is a bunch

781
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 12: of bunk, a bunch of nonsense. You know, you spoke

782
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 12: with Molly White and Zichron. You read the concern dot

783
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 12: tech letter. The blockchain is just a glorified append only

784
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 12: limited writer spreadsheet. It's not an iPhone. It's not transformative,

785
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 12: it's not innovation. None of this is innovation. However, I

786
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 12: might be wrong about utility because the reality is crypto

787
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 12: is emerging with utility number one. Okay, it has utility

788
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 12: for criminals, but I don't know if that's a bona

789
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 12: fide utility. But the president is now created a utility

790
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 12: because he's saying, hey, buy my mean coin and you're

791
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 12: going to get access.

792
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 3: Whether that's lawful or not.

793
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 12: I'm not an expert in any of that, but he's

794
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 12: created a utility for his meme coins now, the hawk

795
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:31,919
Speaker 12: Tua meme coin.

796
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 3: I don't see every one of these is a facts

797
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: and circumstance case. I don't see that having any utility.

798
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 12: But if she didn't know, if she is said at

799
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 12: the beginning, the top two hundred people will get to

800
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 12: meet me and come and watch my podcast live, then

801
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 12: you can sort of say, I mean, here's the thing, Jamie,

802
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 12: is that the SEC now believes, suddenly, out of nowhere,

803
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 12: that crypto is a collectible. Okay, that it's just like

804
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 12: a collectible. It's not this mathematical computational equation, okay, this

805
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 12: bladder of code, an unsolvable problem of code, is a collectible. Now,

806
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 12: I can tell you. I can give you three quick

807
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 12: reasons why it's not a collectible. Number one because when

808
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 12: I talked about it on sixty Minutes, having no utility,

809
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 12: I was talking about the XRP token. I got death threats.

810
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 12: My family got death threats. They said, they're going to

811
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 12: burn my house down. If I were talking about rolexes

812
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 12: and Pokemon cards, I don't think I would.

813
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 3: Have gotten that ruction. So that's number one.

814
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 12: Number two, if you go to your brokerage account, right

815
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 12: whatever it is, Robinhood or wherever you're buying your secure investments,

816
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 12: you'll go to the tab and you'll see you know, stocks, bonds,

817
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 12: maybe options, and then you'll see something that says crypto.

818
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 3: So you don't see.

819
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 12: Pokemon cards, Beatie babies, and American girl dolls on that

820
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 12: pulldown screen.

821
00:47:58,680 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's the second reason.

822
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 12: The third reason is is that every single Article three

823
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 12: judge that has ever reviewed this idea of whether a

824
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 12: digital asset is a security and whatever iteration be it, ico,

825
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 12: simple Agreement for future token staking, lending, all those things

826
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 12: I mentioned before, has said it's a security and so

827
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 12: and those Article three judges, the mark uata is acting

828
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 12: SEC chair can't disappear those decisions.

829
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 3: They're on the books.

830
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 12: So the SEC has just chosen to ignore them, to abandon,

831
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 12: to abdicate its mission of investor protection.

832
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 3: I talked about the.

833
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 12: Crash and the depression that followed in twenty nine and

834
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 12: the SEC was created to protect investors.

835
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: They're not created, they're not supposed to protect collectors.

836
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 12: So their idea is, hey, these digital assets, they're collectibles.

837
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 12: It's caveat empt tour and it's a it's a walking dead,

838
00:48:54,640 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 12: post apocalyptic marketplace where there's no protection anything, and it's

839
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 12: all driven by fomo.

840
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 3: There's no earnings, there's no there's no balance sheet, there's

841
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 3: nothing you can look at.

842
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 12: You can't get their ten ques or their ten ks

843
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 12: or other SEC filings because.

844
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: There aren't any. So it's just fomo.

845
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 12: You're just betting that someone else is going to be

846
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 12: dumb enough to buy this and it's going to go up.

847
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it, and gosh, that's so so. In short,

848
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: crypto is being effectively treated by the SEC right now

849
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: as if it's Beanie Baby.

850
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 3: Yes, or American Crazy.

851
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 12: I'm not sure Beanie Babies, American Girl dolls, or Pokemon

852
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 12: cards that would be the three categories.

853
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: People are being kind of professionally disappeared from that that

854
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: we're working in the Bided administration just a couple of

855
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: months ago. Has there been I mean, I know you

856
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: have sort of been at the forefront of this, but

857
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: has there been a lot of people speaking out and

858
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 2: if not, why you.

859
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 3: Know, Oh, there's a good reason. This is actually very

860
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 3: easy question.

861
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 12: Every single SEC lawyer, most of them go out into

862
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 12: private practice when they leave the SEC and they work

863
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 12: for a big law firm, or they work for a

864
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 12: company whatever, But most of the time they go work

865
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 12: for a big law firm. And big law firms make

866
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 12: huge amounts of dollars from all these digital asset companies,

867
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 12: and so you have a fiduciary responsibility to your partners.

868
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 12: So you won't hear a lot of lawyer a lot

869
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 12: of lawyers unless they're law professors or just You've got

870
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 12: to find someone who's independent and objective to hear what

871
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 12: their opinion is on crypto.

872
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 3: I'm independent and objective.

873
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 12: You can disagree with me, but I don't make a

874
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 12: nickel from my opinion, not a penny, not a dime.

875
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 12: All I get is grief from having this opinion. Nothing

876
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 12: more right. You called me to ask me to do this,

877
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 12: and I'm always very reluctant. For I'm sure you can

878
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 12: attest I'm always reluctant. It's like, you know, I'm chasing

879
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 12: windmills here and I'm all alone because none of my

880
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 12: former sec colleagues who were perfectly happy to tell me

881
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 12: to whisper in my ear.

882
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right about crypto.

883
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 12: None of them are in a situation where they can say,

884
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 12: where they can speak out, So very few lawyers will

885
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 12: speak out against it. And from a political standpoint, it

886
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 12: would be suicide to speak out against crypto. Only if

887
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 12: you're the most one of the strongest politicians will you

888
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 12: survive because the crypto lobby is incredibly well capitalized. They've

889
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 12: already set aside one or two hundred million for the midterms,

890
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 12: So fail not at your peril if you get out

891
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 12: and speak against crypto and your political congress. I mean,

892
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 12: why not just say, hey, if it's innovation, I'm all

893
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 12: for it, and I want it to be done the

894
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,959
Speaker 12: right way. That's a that's a way to avoid getting

895
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 12: these people from putting a target on that.

896
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, it's so funny you.

897
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 12: Say it's innovation, but in the rest of the sentence

898
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 12: you say it's an American girl doll or a beanie baby.

899
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 3: So you can't have it both ways.

900
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 12: But they want it both ways, and so they'll masquerate

901
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 12: it as innovation and they'll use that as they're sort

902
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 12: of subterfuge to get you thinking. Well, you know, and

903
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 12: and and you know, you can't really blame the president

904
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 12: because he came out and he said he was going

905
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 12: to do this, and he's doing it. So as much

906
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 12: as you might this like what he believes in the

907
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 12: reality is he made it very clear this is what

908
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 12: he was going to do. And these people have been

909
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 12: cut loose and they're running wild in Washington and they

910
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 12: own the city. They really do better than any other

911
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 12: lobbying group in the history of the world. And Molly White,

912
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 12: I know you mentioned her, She's done some very meticulous

913
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 12: studies on all of this and it's it's mind blowing.

914
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 12: But you know, that's the way our political system works.

915
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 12: So again that's not my area of expertise. Maybe that

916
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 12: needs to be fixed. Everyone seems to agree that it

917
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 12: should be. But right now these people are pedal extraordinary

918
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 12: influence and you don't see it if you watch. Patrick

919
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,720
Speaker 12: Boyle on YouTube did this really great thing on crypto

920
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 12: where he just went over every campaign that the Crypto

921
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 12: Lobby was supporting and showed how you wouldn't really know

922
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 12: that they were supporting them. So they do this brilliantly.

923
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 12: I mean, they wrote there. They wrote their own playbook again.

924
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 12: You know you got a hand to them. You know,

925
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 12: they wrote their own playbook. They were losing in front

926
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 12: of these judges over and over again, and they found

927
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 12: a way to win. And they won big. They won huge.

928
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 12: They got rid of Shared Brown in Ohio. They spent

929
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 12: forty million dollars.

930
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: If this remains unchecked, if most people who could potentially

931
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,879
Speaker 2: speak up against this feel like their hands are tied

932
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: or their future is sabotage by speaking up about this,

933
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: what are we looking at?

934
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 12: Well, you know, if you're a financial historian, you know

935
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 12: that all this is crypto is one big Ponzi scheme.

936
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 12: I don't see how anyone can argue against that, because again,

937
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 12: but what.

938
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: If it was an American girl?

939
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,280
Speaker 12: Well, I get it, but in terms of Ponzi schemes,

940
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 12: and a Ponzi scheme is just where you're just buying again,

941
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 12: trying to beat out everyone out, and it's like a

942
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 12: game of musical chairs.

943
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 3: You don't want to be the last person holding it.

944
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 12: So if the Ponzi scheme keeps going, sooner or later,

945
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 12: all Ponzi schemes crash. They crash typically when things get bad.

946
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 12: If we were to have a recession, maybe, for example,

947
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 12: because of these tariffs we get the country goes into

948
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 12: a discression, a depression, but the economic needs has been

949
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 12: very good lately. But suppose the country goes into a depression.

950
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 12: People generally this is what I saw a lot at

951
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 12: the SEC When things get bad, people will flee to

952
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 12: safety and they will take you. They will move out

953
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 12: of their most risky alternative investments. And everybody agrees, no

954
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 12: matter what how fanatical you are about crypto, that it's

955
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 12: it's a risky alternative investment. You can't you can't get

956
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 12: anyone to not admit that it's like gambling. So as

957
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 12: soon as things go south with the economy, or the

958
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 12: economy hits a recession, you know, with all the ransomware

959
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 12: attacks growing and growing in sophistication.

960
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 3: When I taught at Duke Law School and there.

961
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 12: Was the Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack where the Colonial Pipeline

962
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 12: was shut down, you couldn't get gas in North Carolina.

963
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 12: You couldn't get home from the airport, couldn't get a taxi,

964
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 12: couldn't get an ubercar, couldn't get a rental car.

965
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 3: There was no gas anywhere.

966
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 12: And I got to tell you it started to get

967
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 12: a little scary, you know, not just economically, but suddenly

968
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 12: you were thinking, you know, the police can't get to

969
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 12: my house, you know.

970
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 3: And it just happens just over a few days. So

971
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 3: if these ransomware.

972
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 12: Attacks hit infrastructure or hit hospitals, when those things kind

973
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 12: of start happening, I think governments like the National Security

974
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 12: Division will wake up at the Department of Justice and say,

975
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 12: we've got to stop the crypto, because that's what doing

976
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 12: it all. If North Korea is able to build these

977
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 12: nuclear weapons facilities purely because of crypto, which it seems

978
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 12: like they are with the six billion dollars that they've stolen,

979
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 12: think about that's the greatest theft in the history of

980
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 12: the world. The banking regulators, the FDIC, the FED, the

981
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 12: Office of the Controller of the Currency have been very

982
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 12: very strict about allowing banks, traditional financial institutions from doing

983
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 12: anything having to do with crypto. The crypto firms called

984
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 12: this operation choke Hold, and I think that's a fair name,

985
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 12: but I think it's what our name because it's exactly

986
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 12: what made sense.

987
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 11: You know.

988
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 12: The banking regulators, they didn't prohibit these entities from doing them,

989
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 12: but They said to them, if you do anything involving crypto,

990
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 12: we're going to come in and examine you, and there's

991
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 12: no way to you know, these crypto are such dark markets.

992
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 3: You don't know who any of these depositors are. You

993
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 3: don't know what's going on in these marketplace, you don't

994
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 3: know where on this pricing. So the choke hold was

995
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 3: perfectly legitimate.

996
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 12: Now the Trump administration has come in in all of

997
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 12: those guardrails, from the Office of the Controller to the Conrency,

998
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 12: from the FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and from

999
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 12: the Federal Reserve have all been lifted. Okay, so suddenly

1000
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 12: banks can get in the business of selling crypto Morgan

1001
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 12: stand Only. For example, I read an article, I don't

1002
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 12: know if this is true, that fifteen thousand of their

1003
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 12: brokers are going to be cut loose to sell crypto.

1004
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 12: So if you're suddenly like, what can a broker say

1005
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 12: to you to buy crypto other than buy this crypto

1006
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 12: it's an asset, I don't understand, but it might go

1007
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 12: up because a lot of stupid people buy it. Anything

1008
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 12: else that's said. If you say it's a store of value,

1009
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 12: that's not true. If you say it's got great potential,

1010
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 12: that's not true. If you say it's an innovation, that's

1011
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 12: not true. If you say it's a great market, that's

1012
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 12: not true. But they're going to you know, brokers are

1013
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 12: great at selling products to the elderly, to the people

1014
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 12: who don't understand, and even to the big institutions. So

1015
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 12: these bogus investments are going to be peddled everywhere, just

1016
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 12: like subprime derivative instruments, and that can as a contagion,

1017
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 12: spread across the global financial marketplace. So those are the

1018
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 12: various scenario. It's a big ransomware attack, of financial contagion,

1019
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 12: or just a recession. Those three things will trigger a

1020
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 12: pendulum swing in the other direction, and maybe the SEC

1021
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 12: will wake up and decide not to abdicate its mission

1022
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 12: of investor protection because you know, they'll realize that, oh

1023
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 12: my gosh, investor, we're here to protect investors. Yet they're

1024
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 12: again they've labeled these people as collectors, and that's really

1025
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 12: not right. Everybody knows that's not right. It doesn't pass

1026
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 12: a straight face test. We have to protect people because

1027
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 12: not just to protect them themselves, but it also creates

1028
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 12: systemic risks. So you might just say, I was on

1029
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 12: a panel just a few weeks ago at George Mason

1030
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 12: University and one of the professors is like, go ahead and.

1031
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 3: Do with what your crypto, Go have your fun. I

1032
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 3: don't care. It's not going to impact me. And that's

1033
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 3: just wrong.

1034
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 12: You know, it will impack you because of the crime

1035
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 12: associated with it, and it'll impact you when it all

1036
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 12: comes crashing down and your four oh one k is

1037
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 12: suddenly work half what it was, or you're five twenty

1038
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 12: nine for your kids is worth half what it was,

1039
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 12: and you're freaking out because how are you going to

1040
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 12: afford to retire? How are you going to afford to

1041
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 12: pay for your kids' education? And then you want you

1042
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 12: want accountability, and you're going to say where was the SEC?

1043
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 12: And you're going to like you say, the SEC was

1044
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 12: watching Beatie Baby and Pokemon movies and not considering the

1045
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 12: reality of their mission, which is to protect investors. And

1046
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 12: that's a sacrisanct mission that they've just abandoned for political

1047
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 12: reasons that you know, historically, whether you're publican or Democrat,

1048
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 12: it's really unsettling and disturbing to be toast that.

1049
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to John read Stark. You can

1050
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 2: follow his work at the links in the description, and

1051
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 2: before we get into the concluding thoughts on this second,

1052
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 2: hank to a series. This is Jamie from the Future

1053
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,919
Speaker 2: the day before the podcast comes out, telling you one

1054
00:59:56,240 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: last thing somehow, which is that as Hailey Wells continues

1055
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: to hard launch herself back into the mainstream, she's been

1056
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 2: doing the rounds in press with a new publicist, not

1057
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: the one that got her into the cryptoscam, and one

1058
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: interview came out during the writing of this episode that

1059
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: I think is worth mentioning. So in addition to the

1060
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: fact that Haley is indeed returning to celebrity Poker and

1061
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 2: already has at the time I'm recording this, which there's

1062
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: that there was an interview published on May second in

1063
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: Vanity Fair with writer Chris Murphy, an article that even

1064
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 2: features a photoshoot of Hailey wearing a little white lace

1065
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 2: dress in what I absolutely am certain is an Airbnb

1066
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: rented for the photo shoot. It is the fakest looking

1067
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: place in the world. And I wanted to share two

1068
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 2: bits of this interview that are relevant. So first, Hayley

1069
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: does do this interview with her new publicist at her

1070
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: side and appears to be allowed to talk about the

1071
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 2: crypto scandal in public for the first time. From that,

1072
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy asks, what have you learned from that experience?

1073
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 2: Do you have anything to say to the people who

1074
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 2: lost their money? Hailey replies, I would say personally what

1075
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 2: I learned from it. Let's see. I don't know. I

1076
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: just feel really bad for anybody that lost money. All

1077
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: my comments, if you read those, people are like, oh,

1078
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 2: well I lost a lot of money in this. Now

1079
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 2: my kids have to go without stuff.

1080
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 12: I don't know.

1081
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 2: It makes me feel like really sorry for it. Chris

1082
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 2: Murphy asks, after the crypto scandal you went off the grid.

1083
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 2: What were you doing for those three months? Where were you?

1084
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 2: Hailey replies, Oh, I hate to say this, but this

1085
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 2: was a much needed mental health Just what do you

1086
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: call it? A mental health break? I guess is what

1087
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 2: you can call it. Okay, So I think it's interesting

1088
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of sorris in here, But of

1089
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 2: course the sorries don't have to mean anything because the

1090
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 2: SEC investigation is closed, no one, including Haley, is required

1091
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 2: to make this right on behalf of people who lost money,

1092
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 2: So her reply is sawey and the interview closes with

1093
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy asking why, as someone who is so sowy

1094
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: about the krypto scam, why Haley Welch is about to

1095
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 2: head to Las Vegas to play celebrity poker. Here's that exchange.

1096
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy says, you're playing in a celebrity poker tournament

1097
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 2: fresh off the crypto scandal. Do you have anything to

1098
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,480
Speaker 2: say about those optics gambling after some people lost their

1099
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: money on your coin? Haley does not reply here. Her

1100
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 2: publicist does, replying, say the question again. Sorry, I'm just confused,

1101
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy says, some might say that it's not a

1102
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: great look to be gambling so soon after a money

1103
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 2: related scandal. I'm just wondering if Haley has anything to

1104
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 2: say to that or has a response. Once again, Haley's

1105
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 2: publicist replies, Oh, we're gonna skip over that one. Aye

1106
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: ya yai. Okay, that's it for future, Jamie. Let's close

1107
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: out the episode, and that, I promise is the last

1108
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:09,439
Speaker 2: you're going to hear of Hailey Welch on this show.

1109
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:13,439
Speaker 2: For my own mental health, if nothing else. At this point,

1110
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: she has made it clear that she is not ready

1111
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 2: for her fifteen minutes to end, but man if the

1112
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 2: best guest for your comeback is the third most successful

1113
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 2: co creator of the Lunchables with Mold, and if the

1114
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: numbers and attention that the return pulled in, it's going

1115
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: to be a difficult road ahead. So while I do

1116
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: believe that Hailey Welch is very much a sign of

1117
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: the times, a young woman who had no social media

1118
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: aspirations or aspirations to fame being launched into prominence against

1119
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: her will signs that shady ass managers who immediately capitalized

1120
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: of and disposed of her, defrauding regular people out of

1121
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of dollars in the process. But even

1122
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 2: as an individual, there is a kind of desperation to

1123
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: this comeback that is hard to watch. And call me naive,

1124
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that plenty of people on the Reddit

1125
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 2: board will, But I still think that this is a

1126
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 2: story about class more than anything, because it's hard to

1127
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: deny that Haley is a certified scammer or at best

1128
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 2: scammer accomplice at this point, and unfortunately coming from a

1129
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,480
Speaker 2: low income family in Tennessee, I think the financial security

1130
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 2: and not having to return to her job at a

1131
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: spring factory is just as relevant to the story as

1132
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 2: the idea that she might be kind of hooked on

1133
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: the attention and might not be ready for the big

1134
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: moment to end. There is more than one thing going

1135
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 2: on here, and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying

1136
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: to just get your clicks. But the fifteen minutes are

1137
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 2: probably over, and as we talk about on this show

1138
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 2: every week, the fifteen minutes being over has a way

1139
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,680
Speaker 2: of breaking someone's brain. But careers have highs and lows,

1140
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: and I can't say with confidence that Haley doesn't have

1141
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 2: a second act in her. We've seen it before and

1142
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 2: many people life is long, right, But for the time being,

1143
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:29,439
Speaker 2: the most depressing part of all of that is, even

1144
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 2: with these already diminishing returns, I don't think that Haley

1145
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 2: or any of the parasites that remain on her team

1146
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 2: are gonna stop chasing whatever the latest influencer grift is.

1147
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 2: It seems like they're in too deep. And the reason

1148
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 2: I think that is because there's this one part of

1149
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 2: the KSI interview on the return episode where Haley all

1150
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: but confirms this, do.

1151
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:57,479
Speaker 5: You ever think I could box?

1152
01:05:58,240 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 11: Would you want to box? I?

1153
01:05:59,440 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 14: Actually?

1154
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 11: Really?

1155
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 2: You gotta give her some tips?

1156
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I need some tips.

1157
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 6: You can just try me.

1158
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: They brought up bad baby, but that is.

1159
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 3: Perfect.

1160
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 5: It's like the world's biggest memes against oh my, that

1161
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 5: would be personally.

1162
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 15: I like her.

1163
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 5: I don't think I could. I feel like I have

1164
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 5: to have somebody.

1165
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 2: I just I just despise a yes, the next attempt

1166
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 2: to keep her fingernails wrapped around the right wing grifting

1167
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 2: machine sports betting via celebrity boxing. This interaction bummed me

1168
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 2: out for a number of reasons, the first being that

1169
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: this cheeky question from Haley almost exactly mirrors how she

1170
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 2: foreshadowed that her team was about to pull a massive

1171
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: crypto scam a few months ago. This is from the

1172
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: episode of Talk to U with Mark Cuban from back

1173
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 2: in November.

1174
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I give you some token?

1175
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 7: How do you okay?

1176
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 3: I'm sure you're gonna watch. I don't know. I'm not

1177
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,480
Speaker 3: a big a fan about me coins. I love crypto,

1178
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 3: but but you can make some money from it.

1179
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 11: There's no doubt, no doubt, Abo.

1180
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 2: It's exactly the same. And while the cryptosports betting industry

1181
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 2: her former employer better being a pretty solid example of it,

1182
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 2: is a firmly modern act of desperation. For a person

1183
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: who's been professionally disgraced or, as in the case of

1184
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: many women, professionally disgraced and then humiliated in a very

1185
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 2: gendered way. Even though that is all true here, celebrity

1186
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: boxing as a means to hang on to relevance predates

1187
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 2: internet culture. And maybe I'm saying this just because I

1188
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 2: saw it Tanya in theaters fourteen times, but I really

1189
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 2: do believe this.

1190
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 15: And her opponent across the ring whiting out of the

1191
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,479
Speaker 15: blue corner, wearing the stars and the bars, and also

1192
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 15: choosing not to disclose her weight to the world class skater,

1193
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 15: a two time Olympian, a World bronze medalist, and the

1194
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 15: United States trapion, the progismatic and unpredictable Tanya tnt.

1195
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 11: Hiding.

1196
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 2: This is Tanya Harding, a one time American Olympic figure

1197
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 2: skating forerunner who was extremely unbelievably talented, but was thought

1198
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 2: to lack the precise femininity associated with figure skating. She

1199
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 2: was a little bit rough around the edges and lacked

1200
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 2: the money to get the quote unquote right outfits and

1201
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 2: social graces. She had a difficult life. She was raised

1202
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: by a single mom and was in an abusive marriage,

1203
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,839
Speaker 2: one that culminated in her then husband, Jeff Galuley, hiring

1204
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 2: the worst hitman of all time to take a crowbar

1205
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 2: to who was painted in the media as Tanya's primary

1206
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:03,000
Speaker 2: figure skating rival at the time, a woman named Nancy Kerrigan,

1207
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 2: who by the way, was in the same tax bracket

1208
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,240
Speaker 2: as Tanya, but was just thought to be better at

1209
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 2: being feminine the world as hell. Tanya's involvement in the

1210
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 2: planning of this attack was and I don't know, minimal,

1211
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 2: if anything, but it didn't stop this from ruining her career.

1212
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 2: She was banned from competing professionally in figure skating for

1213
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 2: the rest of her life, and this affected her ability

1214
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,600
Speaker 2: to not just live with dignity, but to make a

1215
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 2: living at all. To quote my favorite movie I Tanya

1216
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 2: starring Margot Robbie.

1217
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 13: Once I was banned from figure skating for life, I

1218
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 13: didn't have a lot of options.

1219
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:53,800
Speaker 2: Did what I had to do to just stay in

1220
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 2: the public eye. And hey, the bills breeze.

1221
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 13: I was the second most person behind Bill Clinton in

1222
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 13: the world. That meant something. People still wanted to see me.

1223
01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:15,879
Speaker 13: So I became the lady boxer.

1224
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,719
Speaker 2: And so Tanya turned to one of the only ways

1225
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 2: that she could make money on that name, because she

1226
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 2: was no longer a name that could sell products like

1227
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:29,560
Speaker 2: Nancy Kerrigan could, and she wasn't allowed to participate in

1228
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 2: figure skating professionally at all, and so she had to

1229
01:10:34,080 --> 01:10:38,759
Speaker 2: get creative. And there was this show called Celebrity Boxing

1230
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 2: that started in two thousand and two.

1231
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 3: Let's Get Ride.

1232
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 2: This was a franchise version of something that had proven

1233
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 2: to make for a pretty successful pay per view event

1234
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 2: all the way back in the nineties, and would usually

1235
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 2: pair up two people who were once very culturally relevant

1236
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,680
Speaker 2: for some reason, but now were slightly less so a

1237
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 2: great example is about between former seventies teen idols Danny

1238
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 2: Bonaducci and Donnie Osmond. Celebrity Boxing, Not for Nothing, is

1239
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 2: a show that started airing on Fox around the same

1240
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 2: time that Girls Gone Wild, The show that would provide

1241
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 2: a template of humiliating drunk women that would lead to

1242
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 2: the Tim and D YouTube channel that Haley Welsh popped

1243
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 2: off on, was at its peak of popularity. But celebrity

1244
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:40,600
Speaker 2: Boxing was a place where, as Tanya's character describes, notorious

1245
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:44,360
Speaker 2: figures could take a last pass at monetizing their name

1246
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 2: by facing off against either another celebrity or a known boxer,

1247
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 2: and more often than not have their ass kicked. And

1248
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:58,440
Speaker 2: because most of these figures had been somehow publicly disgriced

1249
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 2: already does or not, because plenty of these are deserved.

1250
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 16: Tonight you will witness an extraordinary boxing match between two

1251
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 16: celebrities who, until six weeks ago would never set foot

1252
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 16: in a boxing ring. Let me introduce you to our

1253
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:17,720
Speaker 16: first fighter tonight in the Red Corner, comedian and star

1254
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 16: of the hit BBC two series The Office, mister Ricky Gervais.

1255
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 2: This is where Tanya Harding ends up in two thousand

1256
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 2: and two, and in a twist that made me so

1257
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: mad and sad, Tanya is matched up against a woman

1258
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: named Paula Jones, who was also dragged through the mud

1259
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:42,799
Speaker 2: in nineteen nineties tabloid culture because Paula Jones credibly accused

1260
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:48,879
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton of sexual harassment May ninety one. Bill Clinton

1261
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 2: harassed me on the job and then basically told me,

1262
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:55,720
Speaker 2: let's keep this between ourselves.

1263
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 11: I just pretended that it didn't happen.

1264
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 2: And what's worse, La Jones stepping into the ring was

1265
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 2: said to be because Amy Fisher aka yet another nineteen

1266
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 2: nineties woman who was publicly disgraced in spite of being

1267
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 2: a victim of sexual abuse, called the Long Island Lolita,

1268
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,000
Speaker 2: was not able to attend the.

1269
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 15: Winner by technical knockout Kanya Tea and ten. Are you

1270
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 15: surprised that Paula, who's never completed at any.

1271
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 2: Level like this and has never trained for sports at your.

1272
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:33,719
Speaker 15: Level, was able to go into the third drone?

1273
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 7: Oh, she did really well.

1274
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 2: I knew that both of us would.

1275
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 7: Come in and get to know each other a little bit,

1276
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:40,719
Speaker 7: and you know, it wasn't a catfite.

1277
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 1: It was that it was more like a boxing match,

1278
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,280
Speaker 1: but have fun all at the same time. And you

1279
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:46,599
Speaker 1: know I knocked her down a few times.

1280
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 5: That's all I'm happening.

1281
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 2: This is a clear pattern. When you look at the

1282
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 2: history of celebrity boxing, you're hard pressed to find a

1283
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 2: man competing who isn't either trying to recapture relevance, has

1284
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 2: been credibly accused or convey did of a sex crime

1285
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 2: or both. And with women, you're more likely to find

1286
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,960
Speaker 2: someone who has just been publicly shamed in an extreme way,

1287
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,760
Speaker 2: whether you think they deserved it or not. Men are

1288
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 2: trying to bounce back from something that they did, and

1289
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 2: most women are people that others will pay to see

1290
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 2: punched in the face. What's clear is that this is

1291
01:14:25,160 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 2: not what Tanya Harding wanted for her life. It was

1292
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 2: a choice that she made out of a need to survive.

1293
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 2: She wanted to not be publicly humiliated in the first place,

1294
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 2: just like Paula Jones or Amy Fisher didn't want And

1295
01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 2: like Hailey Welch, Tanya was from a working class family

1296
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 2: and didn't have anyone looking out for her financially or emotionally.

1297
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:52,559
Speaker 2: And like Hailey Welch, Tanya Harding did fuck up at

1298
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:56,799
Speaker 2: different times, unlike Hailey Welch, who was a generational athlete.

1299
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 2: But you can talk to me about that, Ata Bar

1300
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 2: I love talking about on your herding. And while there

1301
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:05,880
Speaker 2: are new venues for celebrity boxing today, I will remind

1302
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 2: you how successful the Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson Netflix

1303
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:14,160
Speaker 2: match was last year. The gender dynamics kind of remain

1304
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 2: the same. The men are credibly accused of sex crimes

1305
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:23,600
Speaker 2: and washed up. The women have been publicly humiliated, and

1306
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:28,519
Speaker 2: their faults are generally connected to survival. But all of

1307
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:33,560
Speaker 2: it is out of some desperation. It sucks it is

1308
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 2: very American. Hailey is willing to sign up for this

1309
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 2: not because she is secretly wanted to box for her

1310
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 2: whole life, but because it is a way for her

1311
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 2: to make money and keep her name out there, and

1312
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 2: regardless of whether it works, whether it's humiliating, or whether

1313
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 2: it matches up with how she wants her life to go.

1314
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 2: And maybe it'll be fun. I hope it is. But

1315
01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 2: from where where I'm sitting, it's just the next grift.

1316
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 2: So Haley, welch, I'm gonna take a shot in the

1317
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:14,880
Speaker 2: dark here. Your sixteenth minute ends now, and for your

1318
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 2: moment of fun. Here is KSI describing Los Angeles as

1319
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 2: a state, not a city, And there are at least

1320
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 2: five people in the room and no one pushes back goodbye.

1321
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 2: You've been to the.

1322
01:16:28,560 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 3: US a few times, right, way too many times?

1323
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 5: You have a favorite state or anything?

1324
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,040
Speaker 11: Favorite state? Definitely not La? Definitely I can agree with

1325
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 11: you on that.

1326
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 5: Agree.

1327
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 11: I feel like LA's just gone downhill over the years.

1328
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:47,840
Speaker 14: Man sixteenth Minute is a production of fol Zone Media

1329
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,599
Speaker 14: and iheartwoy Depp. It is written, hosted, and produced by

1330
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:52,799
Speaker 14: me Jamie Loftus.

1331
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichtman and Robert Evans. The

1332
01:16:56,400 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 2: amazing Ian Johnson is our supervising producer and our editor.

1333
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Sad thirteen. Voice acting is

1334
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:07,800
Speaker 2: from Grant Crater and pet Shout outs to our dog

1335
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 2: producer Anderson, my cats fleeing Casper, and my pet rock Bird,

1336
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 2: who will outlive us all. Bye.