Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for Session four one four of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. In this deeply
Speaker 1: moving episode, we're joined by Lisa Price, founder and CEO
Speaker 1: of Carol's Daughter, for an intimate conversation about parenting, identity,
Speaker 1: and unconditional love. Lisa opens up about her journey as
Speaker 1: a mother to a transgender child, sharing the lessons she's learned,
Speaker 1: the challenges she's faced, and the transformative power of showing
Speaker 1: up with empathy and authenticity. Together, we explore how her
Speaker 1: experiences as a parent have shaped her both personally and professionally,
Speaker 1: and how she continues to advocate for love, acceptance, and
Speaker 1: inclusion both at home and within her brand. Lisa's story
Speaker 1: is one of courage, growth, and unwavering support, offering inspiration
Speaker 1: and insight for anyone navigating their own journey of understanding
Speaker 1: and connection. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,
Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag
Speaker 1: TVG in session, or join us over in Patreon. For
Speaker 1: more conversations about the podcast, you can join us at
Speaker 1: Community not Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa.
Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm honored to chat with you. You have been
Speaker 1: such an inspiration to so many of us. Your work
Speaker 1: has really just opened the door and really helped so
Speaker 1: many of us take good care of ourselves when many
Speaker 1: people were not making products for us. So it's a
Speaker 1: real honor to chat with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if you could get started by talking to
Speaker 1: me a little bit about your mental health journey, So
Speaker 1: before becoming a parent and balancing the demands of running
Speaker 1: a business. Did you already have experience with therapy.
Speaker 2: I did not have experience with therapy. There was one
Speaker 2: period and I was already a parent at that time
Speaker 2: when I was in therapy with my husband. We did
Speaker 2: couple's therapy after becoming parents. Because everything was so different,
Speaker 2: it was kind of limited and just within that scope.
Speaker 2: And at the time, it was something that I looked
Speaker 2: at as there is a problem, so let's address the problem.
Speaker 2: Not this is maintenance and this is ongoing and it's
Speaker 2: not something that you do until there's a cure. I
Speaker 2: have a completely different perspective on therapy now. I kind
Speaker 2: of can't imagine not having it and you know, not
Speaker 2: having that accessibility. But I did used to think of
Speaker 2: it as there's a problem, let's address the problem, and
Speaker 2: then when you're cured, you can stop. But that's not accurate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. Can you say more about like
Speaker 1: how that early experience really has helped to shape your
Speaker 1: ideas about mental health?
Speaker 2: That experience just having the disinterested third party to talk
Speaker 2: to was something that was very eye opening to me,
Speaker 2: But at the time it didn't necessarily make the impact
Speaker 2: that that is something that you continue to do and
Speaker 2: have available to you, the idea of two things existing
Speaker 2: at the same time. It doesn't have to be either,
Speaker 2: or it can be yes, and was something that I
Speaker 2: didn't understand fully until about four years ago. But just
Speaker 2: having that experience over twenty years ago at least opened
Speaker 2: the door to it being positive, because there was this
Speaker 2: feeling twenty you know, over twenty years ago that well,
Speaker 2: I screwed up, So this is why we're here, not that. No,
Speaker 2: you're here because this is normal and this is what
Speaker 2: a lot of people need and it's what we should
Speaker 2: be doing. It was almost like it was punishment for
Speaker 2: something that I had done incorrectly, and I don't feel
Speaker 2: that way now.
Speaker 1: Mmmmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's interesting and I'm not really surprised because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people find themselves exploring therapy both as
Speaker 1: a couple but also maybe just as a parent after
Speaker 1: a child enters the relationship because the whole dynamic changes.
Speaker 1: And I know that a lot of the work that
Speaker 1: you do with Carol's Daughter and the Love Delivered initiative
Speaker 1: really focuses on women's maternal health. So can you say
Speaker 1: a little bit about what you've learned about the mental
Speaker 1: health of moms and how maybe that has changed for
Speaker 1: you over time.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. When you are having a baby, there's
Speaker 2: so much attention and conversation on what is the nursery
Speaker 2: going to look like? What are you having? Are you
Speaker 2: having a boy or a girl? And depending on which
Speaker 2: one it is, how much can you shop? And what
Speaker 2: are you going to get and what's going to be
Speaker 2: cute and you and those are wonderful things that are
Speaker 2: that are part of being a parent, and all of
Speaker 2: that stuff is fun and if you're somebody who likes
Speaker 2: to decorate and decorating a nursery is going to be enjoyable,
Speaker 2: and nesting is a part of the process. But no
Speaker 2: one talks to you, at least then when I was
Speaker 2: becoming a parent. And my oldest is almost twenty nine,
Speaker 2: and then the second born is twenty seven and the
Speaker 2: youngest is eighteen. So I've been out of this market
Speaker 2: for a long time. But no one talks to you
Speaker 2: about how you're going to feel, what it's like to
Speaker 2: not sleep, what it's like to have this responsibility for
Speaker 2: this other human being, and how overwhelming that can be.
Speaker 2: I was not a person that experienced postpartum depression, as
Speaker 2: I can tell it doesn't seem to be that that
Speaker 2: was my story. I don't remember feeling that way, but
Speaker 2: I do remember feeling like I have to get this
Speaker 2: right and I can't mess up. When why should I
Speaker 2: feel that way. I've never done it before. Of Course
Speaker 2: I'm going to mess up. Of course I'm going to
Speaker 2: do things incorrectly. But there was this feeling that I
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to I've got to get it right. But
Speaker 2: how do I get it right? Who helps me get
Speaker 2: it right? What is right? What is wrong? So many
Speaker 2: questions that just couldn't be answered, that you just learned
Speaker 2: as you did it. So sometimes I look back on
Speaker 2: it and I'm amazed that my children are relatively healthy
Speaker 2: and sound, and you know, it came out okay, considering
Speaker 2: I had no guide book whatsoever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wonder if you could offer to new
Speaker 1: parents some things, because what you're basically talking about is
Speaker 1: like giving ourselves grief. There is no hand that comes
Speaker 1: with these little people that are brought into our lives,
Speaker 1: so there is a lot of like learning on the job.
Speaker 1: So what would you say to maybe other parents who
Speaker 1: maybe are embarking on this journey newly if.
Speaker 2: You have access to professionals, whether you actually go into
Speaker 2: therapy or not. Right, maybe just having a consultation with someone.
Speaker 2: So like if you think of it as maybe you're
Speaker 2: thinking about buying a house, so you have a conversation
Speaker 2: with your accountant or with someone at the bank. You
Speaker 2: go to see what do you qualify for? What is
Speaker 2: your credit score looking like? If you were to take
Speaker 2: out a mortgage, what would your interest rate look like?
Speaker 2: You do research on it. You don't just go out
Speaker 2: and buy a house, right, You do research to see
Speaker 2: where you stand. Do research on what it's like to
Speaker 2: become a parent. Talk to other people in your lives
Speaker 2: who are parents, and not just about getting up at night,
Speaker 2: not just about feeding and things like that. What is
Speaker 2: it like when they are in school? What is it
Speaker 2: like if you know someone whose child has a learning difficulty?
Speaker 2: What is that like? Just so you understand what could
Speaker 2: be your life and understand that there's so many people
Speaker 2: on that same path and there isn't really anything that
Speaker 2: you can do to change that. You can take your
Speaker 2: prenatal vitamins, you can go to your doctor's visits, you
Speaker 2: can do all of the things that you're supposed to do,
Speaker 2: but you can't plan for what is going to happen,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't mean that you forgot something or you
Speaker 2: did something wrong. If something happens that you didn't plan for,
Speaker 2: it's not meant to be perfect. If you think about
Speaker 2: your own childhood, your own childhood wasn't perfect. Your mom
Speaker 2: and dad were not perfect, your grandparents weren't perfect, but
Speaker 2: they they got the job done. And if you or
Speaker 2: your partner are in a situation where there was trauma
Speaker 2: in your childhood, then definitely addressing that trauma before you
Speaker 2: become a parent is critical because hurt people hurt people,
Speaker 2: and you can repeat behavior unintentionally. So do the research,
Speaker 2: read the books, listen to the podcasts, do all the
Speaker 2: things to be as prepared as you can be. But
Speaker 2: give yourself grace because you're not going to cover everything.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that analogy to home buying because I
Speaker 1: think both parenting and like long term partnership and marriage,
Speaker 1: like they feel like these things that I think a
Speaker 1: lot of us just expect to do and like expect
Speaker 1: to do it right, when a lot of us don't
Speaker 1: have any knowledge really of like what makes those things
Speaker 1: work and what makes those things healthy, right, And so
Speaker 1: it's okay, to talk to other people, to talk to
Speaker 1: other couples, to talk to professionals, to get information to
Speaker 1: help you with the major decision, just like a house
Speaker 1: is a.
Speaker 2: Major decision, right exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the other times that I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people find themselves in a therapist's office
Speaker 1: is around entrepreneurship and like business development. I wonder if
Speaker 1: you can share a little bit about like how the
Speaker 1: things maybe you learned in therapy you found triggling into
Speaker 1: your business and how that helped you to make different
Speaker 1: decisions in your business.
Speaker 2: Well, to be completely honest, that type of therapy did
Speaker 2: not come into my life until just about five years ago.
Speaker 2: I started regular therapy during the pandemic. Prior to that,
Speaker 2: it was just that situation before, which was like twenty
Speaker 2: seven years ago. But being an entrepreneur and I guess
Speaker 2: practicing what a therapist would call reality therapy when you're
Speaker 2: in the reality of the situation, so reality starts to
Speaker 2: teach you things I learned that I couldn't get it
Speaker 2: all done. I used to be a person that made
Speaker 2: I still make lists, but when I made lists in
Speaker 2: the past, I made them with the intent that everything
Speaker 2: on that list is going to get checked off on
Speaker 2: that day. So if I make a list on Monday,
Speaker 2: I can't go to bed until I've checked all the boxes.
Speaker 2: And becoming a parent while being an entrepreneur also being
Speaker 2: a wife, I started to have lots of things carrying
Speaker 2: over to the next day. I couldn't get it all done,
Speaker 2: and I was blaming myself at first, like you're just
Speaker 2: you're not doing the time management right. Get a different journal,
Speaker 2: get a calendar apps, you know, we could figure this out.
Speaker 2: And it took a while for me to realize, no,
Speaker 2: it's not going to happen. I'm not going to get
Speaker 2: everything done. And the way that I managed it for
Speaker 2: myself was there were going to be days when I
Speaker 2: was going to be a really great wife and mother,
Speaker 2: and days when I was going to be an excellent
Speaker 2: founder of a business. And maybe there's going to be
Speaker 2: a handful of those days every month where all of
Speaker 2: that gets done really well simultaneously. And that's okay. It
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be every single day I'm perfect. It's
Speaker 2: just not possible. But I learned that, I guess the
Speaker 2: harder way. I learned it through not achieving the goals
Speaker 2: over and over again, but trying to and then finally
Speaker 2: recognizing maybe this just isn't doable. I don't have to
Speaker 2: give up, but I probably have the bar set a
Speaker 2: bit too high.
Speaker 1: And so your therapist helps you to kind of look
Speaker 1: at what was all on your plate and helped you
Speaker 1: to get more realistic maybe about.
Speaker 2: What Well before the therapist, I was figuring it out
Speaker 2: for myself. Now that I've been with a therapist. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: one of the most profound things that she said to
Speaker 2: me was when I had COVID. I had COVID in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and I had recovered from it wasn't
Speaker 2: a particularly bad bout of it, but for about four
Speaker 2: weeks after I would get very tired early in the day.
Speaker 2: So I would start my day like six am, and
Speaker 2: by eleven thirty I needed a nap, and not a
Speaker 2: little nap, a long nap. And I said to my therapist,
Speaker 2: I said, this is so hard to get adjusted to
Speaker 2: because I'm not used to being this sleepy and like
Speaker 2: leading to nap every day. You know. I thought that
Speaker 2: I was better and that everything was okay, And she said, well,
Speaker 2: why don't you use this as an opportunity to learn
Speaker 2: what tired feels like because up until this point, the
Speaker 2: only thing you really know is exhaustion. And it was like,
Speaker 2: bo I was so good at overriding, I'm not tired.
Speaker 2: I could keep going, you know that. It was being
Speaker 2: sick that taught me, Oh, this is tired, This happens
Speaker 2: before exhaustion. This is what it looks like. So that
Speaker 2: was a huge thing for me. It was a huge,
Speaker 2: huge discovery to understand the difference between tired and exhausted.
Speaker 1: And how would you describe your relationship to risk and
Speaker 1: like taking breaks? How would you say it is now.
Speaker 2: Much better than it used to be. I had to
Speaker 2: actually write it down in the schedule. Ten minutes of nothing,
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes knitting, twenty minutes read, and no matter what
Speaker 2: was going on, I had to make myself do that.
Speaker 2: Everything goes into my schedule. Everything, And I'm much better
Speaker 2: at getting the cues sooner than before, and I feel
Speaker 2: more balanced and I don't feel anxiety when I look
Speaker 2: at Monday's lists and there's five items on Monday's list
Speaker 2: that I never got to that spill over to Tuesday,
Speaker 2: Wednesday and Thursday. I'm okay as long as it gets
Speaker 2: done within a week. I'm good, got it.
Speaker 1: Got it more from our conversation after the break. One
Speaker 1: of the other things that you've been very publicity and
Speaker 1: talking about is your relationship with your children, and especially
Speaker 1: your daughter. So can you talk a little bit about,
Speaker 1: like when she came out to you and what that
Speaker 1: experience was like.
Speaker 2: Okay, to be clear, I do have two daughters, So
Speaker 2: the daughter that we're referring to is the older one,
Speaker 2: my second born, and Andy was born male. What is
Speaker 2: the correct way to say it, born and classified as male.
Speaker 2: I guess that's the right way to say, categorized as male. Ever,
Speaker 2: and was always different, just different in the way that
Speaker 2: she moved through the world, the way that she processed
Speaker 2: her humor. She was just different. And at that time,
Speaker 2: the scope of language that my husband and I had,
Speaker 2: and I guess scope of possibilities of what that meant
Speaker 2: was maybe end is gay and just doesn't know it yet,
Speaker 2: And we were both raised to accept. We both have
Speaker 2: close family members that came out to the family. Their
Speaker 2: lives were hidden to some extent, but not hidden with family,
Speaker 2: so we didn't view anything as concerning outside of safety,
Speaker 2: you know, because not everybody feels the same way so
Speaker 2: that would be our only concern is that our child
Speaker 2: is safe. So I remember having conversations with Endy when
Speaker 2: she was younger that if she felt that she were gay,
Speaker 2: that was something that she could talk about with us
Speaker 2: and it would be okay, because we didn't want to
Speaker 2: assume that they knew that it was okay, because it
Speaker 2: isn't okay with a lot of people. And so later
Speaker 2: when there were more things in the news, more things
Speaker 2: on television, you know, you start learning about non binary
Speaker 2: and trans and there's more options if you will, more
Speaker 2: dialogue around the topic. I remember when they told us
Speaker 2: that they were non binary, and I didn't struggle with
Speaker 2: that as her identity. I struggled more with understanding, what
Speaker 2: is it that I'm supposed to do with that, and
Speaker 2: how do I support that? And I got it wrong
Speaker 2: a couple of times. But we had conversations about it, which,
Speaker 2: you know, which was great. But non binary was harder
Speaker 2: for me to wrap my head around because I was
Speaker 2: accustomed to this way or this way. And I'm actually
Speaker 2: very appreciative that our daughter's journey started with non binary
Speaker 2: because the idea of somebody being gender fluid and not
Speaker 2: identifying one way or the other is very very interesting
Speaker 2: when you think of how society is set up with
Speaker 2: certain roles and the ability to live in between is
Speaker 2: something that I think a lot of us would benefit
Speaker 2: from if we could do that, if we weren't relegated
Speaker 2: to certain tasks and expectations based on our gender or
Speaker 2: based on our color.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about getting it wrong in some
Speaker 1: of those conversations, because I think it's for a lot
Speaker 1: of people that I don't want say the wrong thing.
Speaker 1: How did you navigate like getting those wrong?
Speaker 2: Well, when some of this was happening, when some of
Speaker 2: her transition was taking place, she wasn't living at home.
Speaker 2: She was in school and we were going through the pandemic,
Speaker 2: So coming home to visit was challenging because her dad
Speaker 2: and I were considered high risk and she would have
Speaker 2: to fly home and so forth. So there was a
Speaker 2: lot of communicating over the phone. And when she started
Speaker 2: HRT and decided to transition from identifying as non binary
Speaker 2: to being more she they I thought that there was
Speaker 2: a transition to what you would refer to as feminine,
Speaker 2: and I ordered clothes for her, and I ordered color
Speaker 2: and flowers and ruffles, all the things, thinking oh, you know,
Speaker 2: we're not non binary? Where she they? So that's feminine
Speaker 2: to me, and her being a sweetheart and not wanting
Speaker 2: to hurt my feelings didn't say anything, and I never
Speaker 2: see pictures of like the outfits, and I didn't hear
Speaker 2: anything like oh I love the shirt, I love the
Speaker 2: dre you know. It was just sort of quiet. And
Speaker 2: so I said, did I mess up with the clothes?
Speaker 2: And that's when I found out that I did. And
Speaker 2: I learned that her definition of feminine was very different
Speaker 2: from mine. Her definition of feminine was more androgynous and
Speaker 2: more neutral tones and not overly frilly and colorful and floral.
Speaker 2: And it was really interesting because I didn't expect myself
Speaker 2: to have played into such a stereotype, and I did,
Speaker 2: you know, it was like somebody finding out that they're
Speaker 2: having a girl and painting everything pink and lavender. I
Speaker 2: fell right into the trap. And I thought that I
Speaker 2: was being so modern but grateful that it didn't cause
Speaker 2: any you know, friction between us. She completely understood what
Speaker 2: I did, but didn't know how to explain that I
Speaker 2: got it wrong because she didn't want to hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1: And I just want to back up a bit, Lisa.
Speaker 1: When you say HRT, can you tell us what you're
Speaker 1: referring to about that? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Endy started hormone replacement therapy. I believe it
Speaker 2: was April of twenty twenty one when she decided to transition,
Speaker 2: and she was an adult, so it was a decision
Speaker 2: that she could make on her own. She didn't have
Speaker 2: to talk to her dad and I to get permission
Speaker 2: or anything like that. And the scariest part for me
Speaker 2: with that was because the pandemic, she wasn't home and
Speaker 2: I didn't know what transition was going to look like
Speaker 2: for her. And I remember calling and asking what is
Speaker 2: it going to be like? Because I felt like maybe
Speaker 2: I needed to go visit her to say goodbye to
Speaker 2: the person that I was used to seeing, because up
Speaker 2: until that point, I wasn't still fully clear on what
Speaker 2: becoming she meant to her. So was there going to
Speaker 2: be makeup? Was there going to be jewelry? Is she
Speaker 2: going to change her name? Change her hair? And so
Speaker 2: the next time that I see them, are they going
Speaker 2: to be drastically different from the person that I saw before?
Speaker 2: And I just wanted to say goodbye. And that's when
Speaker 2: she assured me of this is what I see myself
Speaker 2: looking like. I think I'm going to look a lot
Speaker 2: like I do now, and I'm not really into makeup.
Speaker 2: I wear it sometimes, but not a lot. And she
Speaker 2: always wore her hair long, so that wasn't going to
Speaker 2: be different. So she kind of you know, like, we
Speaker 2: talked through it, we cried, and I felt like I
Speaker 2: didn't have to go to Atlanta and hug somebody for
Speaker 2: the last time. And when she came home, the most
Speaker 2: amazing thing to me was it was like seeing myself
Speaker 2: at that age. There's a lot of similarity in the
Speaker 2: way that she dresses and the way she styles her hair.
Speaker 2: It's very much like what I looked like at that
Speaker 2: age because I wasn't really into makeup either. Mm hm.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that, Lisa, And I
Speaker 1: think what you're sharing is like this piece that I
Speaker 1: think a lot of parents struggle with, even in their
Speaker 1: desire to be supportive and you know, affirming and like, hey,
Speaker 1: this is totally fine. I'm one hundred percent behind you.
Speaker 1: Like there it's still this grief of is this person
Speaker 1: going to still exist?
Speaker 2: Right? Like?
Speaker 1: Do I need to go and say goodbye to this person.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about, like how you navigated that,
Speaker 1: maybe both with Indie and maybe on your own and
Speaker 1: with your husband. I don't know if you talk with
Speaker 1: the therapist about that. What was it like navigating that
Speaker 1: grief for you?
Speaker 2: Honestly, the grief was very limited because I realized through
Speaker 2: talking to her about it that I wasn't losing something.
Speaker 2: And then when I saw her, I really didn't see
Speaker 2: somebody different. I think it would have been different if
Speaker 2: I had raised a child who was a football player,
Speaker 2: really butch, short hair, did all of the masculine things,
Speaker 2: and then suddenly wore tunics and had long hair and
Speaker 2: spoke in a softer voice. But I was already raising
Speaker 2: some one that was different, that didn't dress like everybody else.
Speaker 2: That when they went to their high school prom, they
Speaker 2: wore a man's tuxedo jacket with a skirt and Doc Martin's,
Speaker 2: a full face of makeup, polished nails, you know, like
Speaker 2: there was this mix of masculine and feminine. I think
Speaker 2: there was perceived grief on my part, but having that conversation,
Speaker 2: I realized that it wasn't necessary and it definitely didn't
Speaker 2: warrant risking health to get on a plane, and then
Speaker 2: when she came home. It was fine for me, it
Speaker 2: was fine for my husband. We had to get used
Speaker 2: to saying well. First we got used to saying they, they,
Speaker 2: and them, and then we got used to saying she,
Speaker 2: and she was always very patient with us. And then
Speaker 2: it's also helpful that there's other children who buy into
Speaker 2: this as well, so they remind you when you forget.
Speaker 2: You know that. There were many times when I'd be
Speaker 2: having conversation with the older sibling or the younger sibling
Speaker 2: and I would say he and get corrected, Who's he?
Speaker 2: Who's that? I don't know who you're talking about? Who
Speaker 2: are we talking about? And then I'd say sorry, sorry, they, Sorry,
Speaker 2: sorry she?
Speaker 1: You know, but.
Speaker 2: I can see where it can be difficult if you
Speaker 2: have people in the process that don't give you grace
Speaker 2: and aren't patient, and if you're not patient with yourself.
Speaker 2: And we were patient with each other, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: it wasn't I think because and I'll go into my
Speaker 2: past a little bit. My first marriage was to a
Speaker 2: person who was actually gay but didn't know it and
Speaker 2: didn't allow themselves to be that and viewed that as wrong,
Speaker 2: and so they were having a fight with themselves to
Speaker 2: not be that and were trying to be something that
Speaker 2: they weren't, so they weren't living their truth, and in
Speaker 2: not living their truth, they were a horrible, awful husband.
Speaker 2: And it was a horrible, awful marriage that didn't even
Speaker 2: last a full year. Living through that at the age
Speaker 2: of twenty, because I was only twenty when I married
Speaker 2: that person, taught me you can't not be true to yourself,
Speaker 2: can't pretend to be something that you're not. So I
Speaker 2: never wanted anyone that I loved to be unhappy. I
Speaker 2: never wanted anyone that I loved to not be able
Speaker 2: to be who they are. So if I saw that
Speaker 2: someone might be different from everybody else, I always wanted
Speaker 2: them to know you can be who you are around me.
Speaker 2: Don't feel like you have to pretend. Don't introduce your
Speaker 2: girlfriend or your boyfriend as your cousin. Tell me who
Speaker 2: they are, It's okay. So it was more important to
Speaker 2: me for Endy to live her truth than for somebody
Speaker 2: else to be comfortable.
Speaker 1: So how would you say You've been surprised? Maybe by
Speaker 1: how your relationship with Indy has evolved throughout the transition
Speaker 1: up until now.
Speaker 2: The biggest surprise. Honestly is I started off being a
Speaker 2: parent with being a parent to my eldest, my son.
Speaker 2: Very shortly thereafter Endi came Andy and Forrest are only
Speaker 2: nineteen months apart, and so then I thought I was
Speaker 2: the mom of two sons, and then I became the
Speaker 2: mom to a daughter. My youngest Becca is also a daughter,
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of I guess mother daughter
Speaker 2: expectations that I I didn't place them on Becca because
Speaker 2: she was too young for me to do that. She's
Speaker 2: only eighteen now, but I expected those things to exist
Speaker 2: with she and I, and we do have a mother
Speaker 2: daughter relationship, but there were just certain things that I
Speaker 2: just assumed, well, this will be like it was with
Speaker 2: me and my mom. And even before Endy came out,
Speaker 2: I had that relationship with Andy and not with Becca.
Speaker 2: So when she eventually came out, it was sort of
Speaker 2: like you were the daughter all along. And that was
Speaker 2: not to negate that I have a relationship with Becca
Speaker 2: and I love Beca and I love Beca as my
Speaker 2: youngest daughter. But if I compare Lisa and Carol and
Speaker 2: what that relationship was like, the Endi Lisa relationship is
Speaker 2: closest to that, and the Beca Lisa relationship is a
Speaker 2: completely different mother daughter relationship, just a special but just
Speaker 2: very different. And that's what was surprising, the assumption that
Speaker 2: that would exist solely because each of us were classified
Speaker 2: at birth as female. And it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 2: It's the personality and it's not really tied to the
Speaker 2: gender itself.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about like some of the uniqueness
Speaker 1: of that relationship. So what kinds of things maybe were
Speaker 1: you expecting to have and do with Becca that you
Speaker 1: ended up then having with Indy.
Speaker 2: Uh, crafting. I thought that I'd be teaching her how
Speaker 2: to crochet or knit. She tried, but it wasn't really
Speaker 2: for her. That's not her thing. And it is with
Speaker 2: Endy and Endi embroiders and does a little bit of sewing,
Speaker 2: which I don't do it all. So we have that
Speaker 2: in common. All of us have a bit of a
Speaker 2: thing with fragrance, but Beca and I are more into
Speaker 2: it than Endy and I. And when it comes to cooking,
Speaker 2: we all cook, but there's a different curiosity that Endy
Speaker 2: has that Betha doesn't have. Becca wants to learn how
Speaker 2: to do it so she can prepare it for herself
Speaker 2: whenever she wants, and Endy wants to learn how to
Speaker 2: do it because she wants to be able to carry
Speaker 2: on to traditions, and that could just be age. One
Speaker 2: is twenty seven and one is eighteen, so Endy thinks
Speaker 2: of it as carrying on the lineage of the family,
Speaker 2: where Becca doesn't look at it that way. But again,
Speaker 2: she's eighteen, so that could change.
Speaker 1: Are any of your children interested in entrepreneurship and following
Speaker 1: in your footsteps in that way?
Speaker 2: Becca? For sure, she looks at it now from the
Speaker 2: perspective of, you know, doing hair, doing nails, doing lashes,
Speaker 2: always being able to find her own money and not
Speaker 2: being tied to a job. And Andy is artistic and
Speaker 2: wants to be able to pursue their art, but doesn't
Speaker 2: want to pursue their art for the sake of money,
Speaker 2: so she will always have like another job to pay
Speaker 2: the bills, but does her art. And then Forrest, the oldest.
Speaker 2: He is not really an entrepreneur, but also not the
Speaker 2: traditional employee either, so he's more like the freelance guy
Speaker 2: a bit like his dad.
Speaker 1: Got it more from our conversation after the break. So
Speaker 1: as a mother, Lisa, how would you maybe share the
Speaker 1: importance of talking to other mothers, other parents about the
Speaker 1: importance of allyship to the trans community. It sounds like
Speaker 1: you had a very long history I think of being
Speaker 1: like an ally and being very open to people who
Speaker 1: identify in different ways. But what kinds of things would
Speaker 1: you say to other people who maybe are new to
Speaker 1: this or still have some resistance.
Speaker 2: It's very important that you open up your circle to
Speaker 2: include people that are going through what you're going through
Speaker 2: and understand it. Because the most important thing for me,
Speaker 2: the way that I look at it, I go back
Speaker 2: to that first marriage and how unhappy that person was,
Speaker 2: how miserable and lost, and just not wanting anyone to
Speaker 2: live that way, and really try to open up your
Speaker 2: mind to understand that it isn't choice in the way
Speaker 2: that you think that somebody can choose one way or
Speaker 2: the other. It is who they are. And you know,
Speaker 2: when I think about envy from diapers, we just knew
Speaker 2: something was different. We didn't know what it was, and
Speaker 2: like I said, because we didn't know about trans and
Speaker 2: non binary and didn't have that language, then we just said, well,
Speaker 2: maybe he's gay, But there's so much more than that.
Speaker 2: You know, she's never been been tested to see if
Speaker 2: she's on the spectrum, and sometimes we think that could
Speaker 2: be a thing. Also, I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: us out there that are undiagnosed. I wouldn't be surprised
Speaker 2: if I'm on the spectrum. I have a thing with
Speaker 2: fragrance that is not natural, can be very ocd about
Speaker 2: certain things. I don't like to touch paper clips, I
Speaker 2: have a thing with textures. I'm sure that there's something,
Speaker 2: but for the most part, I could function and be normal,
Speaker 2: so you know, it doesn't go diagnosed. We have to
Speaker 2: look at these things as not failures on our part
Speaker 2: or something that we didn't do as parents, something that
Speaker 2: we miss, something that's wrong with our children, and just
Speaker 2: understand that it's differences and we can't all be identical,
Speaker 2: and it's okay to be different, and it's okay to
Speaker 2: allow this person that came from you to be different.
Speaker 2: There's a piece called On Children by Khalil Jabrod that
Speaker 2: is phenomenal and it was something that I heard long
Speaker 2: before I became a parent. I didn't become a parent
Speaker 2: till I was thirty three, and I read On Children
Speaker 2: when I was about eighteen or nineteen, and he says,
Speaker 2: your children are not your children. They are the sons
Speaker 2: and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you,
Speaker 2: but they are not from you, and though they are
Speaker 2: with you, they belong not to you. There's more to
Speaker 2: it but those words. I'm so grateful that they came
Speaker 2: into my life before I was a parent, and it's
Speaker 2: how I tried to operate as a parent. They come
Speaker 2: through me, but they are not from me, and I'm
Speaker 2: here to aid their development, not completely orchestrated.
Speaker 1: Which I think is an important distinction. Right, Even as
Speaker 1: you talked earlier about like these expectations and ideas about
Speaker 1: that we have about who our children will be and
Speaker 1: what our relationship will look a lot it is based
Speaker 1: on this idea that like we can predetermine some of
Speaker 1: that and we cannot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't. We can't.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, knowing what you know now, what kinds of
Speaker 1: things would you share for other parents about having important
Speaker 1: conversations even when kids are young about identity. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you and your husband, you know, talk with her
Speaker 1: very early on, like hey, if this is your reality,
Speaker 1: like we're totally fine. What kinds of things would you
Speaker 1: say for other parents to keep in mind about identity conversations.
Speaker 2: It's important to be mindful of your language. You know,
Speaker 2: children will grab toys for so many different reasons. A
Speaker 2: boy doesn't grab a truck because they were a boy.
Speaker 2: They just grab a truck because maybe nobody else bought
Speaker 2: anything other than trucks. So maybe if you have a daughter,
Speaker 2: maybe you buy her a truck and not just buy
Speaker 2: her dolls or vice versa, just to see what happens
Speaker 2: and not take something away because well that's too girly.
Speaker 2: You can't really indoctrinate them in that way. They're going
Speaker 2: to go for what they want. And Dy growing up,
Speaker 2: did have more trucks around her than she did dolls,
Speaker 2: but she gravitated to legos and building and drawing and coloring,
Speaker 2: which was different from four. Her older brother Forrest wasn't
Speaker 2: interested in that, and then beca coming into the mix
Speaker 2: with these two older brothers. She did everything. She liked
Speaker 2: her dolls. But Becca liked her dolls because she was
Speaker 2: in charge. They had to sit and listen to her,
Speaker 2: and she gave them lessons and did school and she
Speaker 2: was the teacher. So it was her way of like
Speaker 2: being a boss and being assertive. The dolls have to
Speaker 2: listen to me and becha. Mostly liked to play with
Speaker 2: food and pretend to cook, and she loved to go shopping.
Speaker 2: She loved cash register, she loved calculators. I think you
Speaker 2: let them play and you see where they go and
Speaker 2: what they're drawn to, and just let it happen and
Speaker 2: not try to guide them because this is right and
Speaker 2: this is wrong, or this is what girls do and
Speaker 2: this is what boys do. And sometimes that can be
Speaker 2: hard for people. And I think if you think about
Speaker 2: it from any place in your life where you were judged,
Speaker 2: So if you are a black or brown person who's
Speaker 2: experienced racism and know what it's like to be excluded
Speaker 2: from things because you're black or brown, think of that
Speaker 2: and how limiting that was on you and all the
Speaker 2: things that you didn't do because you weren't allowed to
Speaker 2: It wasn't open to you. Nobody told you that black
Speaker 2: people did that too. Women who don't get to do
Speaker 2: certain things because they're women and men are encouraged to
Speaker 2: do them. You know, now when we look at sports,
Speaker 2: we see so many more young women being athletes because
Speaker 2: it's been okay to do it. The WNBA has been
Speaker 2: around long enough that there are two generations of young
Speaker 2: girls seeing that it's okay to be a ballplayer and
Speaker 2: going for it when we're a normal size. There's things
Speaker 2: that fat people can't do, and there's things that only
Speaker 2: skinny people can do. So when you think of those
Speaker 2: barriers that maybe got put in your way, try not
Speaker 2: to put those barriers in your children's way because you
Speaker 2: think boys do this and girls do that. Just let
Speaker 2: them be people.
Speaker 1: Were there other resources that you found helpful that you
Speaker 1: might want to offer to others, So you've already mentioned
Speaker 1: khalil Ja Brown's other other podcasts or magazines or documentaries
Speaker 1: or things that you've read that would be good for people.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of what my husband and I
Speaker 2: learned we learned being the parents of our eldest child,
Speaker 2: who is dyslexic and has add being D's parents, even
Speaker 2: though Envy wasn't diagnosed with something specific, was always different
Speaker 2: and we always handled her a certain way because she
Speaker 2: was different. And then being in therapy with our youngest
Speaker 2: with Becca, who has ADHD, there's a lot of things
Speaker 2: that we've learned about parenting and parenting differently, especially with
Speaker 2: the younger one, which the other two benefited from because
Speaker 2: when she was born, they were nine and ten, so
Speaker 2: by the time she was in therapy, they were in
Speaker 2: high school and getting ready to leave middle school. So
Speaker 2: learning how to have a conversation with the child and
Speaker 2: not just issue edicts because I was raised on why
Speaker 2: do I have to do this? Because I said, so,
Speaker 2: that's how I was raised, and I did the same thing,
Speaker 2: and that worked with the first two, didn't work so
Speaker 2: well with the third. So by the time we had
Speaker 2: our third child, like, parenting had to get a little
Speaker 2: bit different. So specific books. I wish I could say, oh,
Speaker 2: this was great and that was great, but I don't
Speaker 2: have anything that comes to mind. Well, no one thing
Speaker 2: that does come to mind. And it's gonna sound really wild.
Speaker 2: But Goldie Hawn, who a lot of people don't know
Speaker 2: because they're not as old as I am, but google her.
Speaker 2: She's Kate Hudson's mom. She was dyslexic and likely had
Speaker 2: other undiagnosed learning difficulties, and her autobiography is super interesting,
Speaker 2: or was to me being the parent of someone who
Speaker 2: was dyslexic, it was really interesting hearing her tell what
Speaker 2: it was like to grow up with her brain not
Speaker 2: working like everybody else's and then there was a series
Speaker 2: that I believe was on TLC about a trans child
Speaker 2: named Jazz, and I can't think of what the name
Speaker 2: of the show was. But my husband, of all people,
Speaker 2: because he does not watch shows like that, ended up
Speaker 2: watching that show and found it really interesting watching Jazz
Speaker 2: initially live as female and then eventually transitioned during the show.
Speaker 2: But watching that was our first exposure to, oh, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of kids that are going through this, and
Speaker 2: this is what it can look like, and this is
Speaker 2: what parents deal with and it was really interesting for us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for offering those So Lisa, as
Speaker 1: someone who has been in business and has been responsible
Speaker 1: for managing teams, I wonder if there's anything you can
Speaker 1: share for other entrepreneurs or business owners about like how
Speaker 1: to support someone on your team who may be transitioning.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that comes to mind for you?
Speaker 2: There one thing that I think goes a long way,
Speaker 2: and some companies do this on your emails. You identify
Speaker 2: who you are so you know it'll say Lisa M. Price,
Speaker 2: founder Carol's daughter. She her. A lot of us may
Speaker 2: think I don't have to declare my pronouns because it's
Speaker 2: obvious I'm not trans, so why do I have to
Speaker 2: identify who I am? And the reason that you have
Speaker 2: to do that is because you have that luxury of
Speaker 2: everybody knows who you are and what you are. So
Speaker 2: you declaring it and making it clear just in case
Speaker 2: there's any ambiguity, allows for the person who might be
Speaker 2: afraid to declare who they are the freedom to say it.
Speaker 2: Because you saying it, you've made it okay. So that
Speaker 2: was something that was a part of the corporate structure
Speaker 2: where my company sits, so that didn't have to be
Speaker 2: an initiative that was discussed. But as a small business person,
Speaker 2: you are your corporate structure, so that can definitely be
Speaker 2: a first step no matter what is to declare add
Speaker 2: your chosen pronouns to your email sign off so it's
Speaker 2: not just your title, and it makes people see, oh,
Speaker 2: it's okay for me to be who I am. If
Speaker 2: you have the ability to make your bathrooms gender neutral,
Speaker 2: if you're building an office, I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people now when they build office space, they don't build
Speaker 2: male and female restrooms. They just build restrooms and make
Speaker 2: each stall private so that no matter what's going on,
Speaker 2: you're in there. By yourself. So that's something that you
Speaker 2: can do now if you inherit a space that's already
Speaker 2: set up a certain way. You know, the only thing
Speaker 2: that you can do is offer, you know, accommodations to
Speaker 2: someone if you become aware that they need them. But
Speaker 2: it's having a conversation. It's asking that person permission to
Speaker 2: have the conversation. Do I have permission to ask you questions?
Speaker 2: There are things that I would like to understand about
Speaker 2: how I can better support you all of that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for then. I think that's a great place
Speaker 1: for people to start. Our producers did look up the
Speaker 1: name of that show. The name of the show was
Speaker 1: called I Am Jazz.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that was it.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Lisa, this has been so wonderful. I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed talking with you. Let us know where we can
Speaker 1: stay connected with you. What is your website as well
Speaker 1: as any social media channels you'd like to share.
Speaker 2: The website for Carol's Daughter is Carol's Daughter dot com.
Speaker 2: We also have a store on Amazon and Carol's Daughter
Speaker 2: is the Instagram handle for the brand, as well as
Speaker 2: the TikTok and the Facebook. I am Lesaprise is who
Speaker 2: I am on Instagram. And on TikTok perfect.
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include those in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Lisa.
Speaker 2: Thank you. This was great. I loved having this conversation.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Lisa was able to join us for
Speaker 1: this conversation. Her openness and love remind us of the
Speaker 1: strength and vulnerability and the power of affirming every child's truth.
Speaker 1: We're very grateful for her voice, her journey in the
Speaker 1: space she's helping create for acceptance and growth. To learn
Speaker 1: more about Lisa and Carrol's daughter, be sure to visit
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash
Speaker 1: session four one four, and don't forget to text this
Speaker 1: episode to two of your girls right now and tell
Speaker 1: them to check it out. Did you know that you
Speaker 1: can leave us a voicemail with your questions or suggestions
Speaker 1: for the podcast. If you have a movie or a
Speaker 1: book you'd like us to review, or even have thoughts
Speaker 1: around people you'd like to hear on the podcast, drop
Speaker 1: us a voice message at memo dot fm slash Therapy
Speaker 1: for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.
Speaker 1: You just might f on the podcast if you're looking
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area. Visit our therapist directory
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Alice Ellis, Indichubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
Speaker 1: was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
Speaker 1: joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2: What's