1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How do loving parents who 2 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: care so much about their children that they decide to 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: even homeschool them end up in a story titled The 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: Girl in the Wall Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Neighbor's 5 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: family has lived by the Layered Us for about a decade. 6 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: She says. The couple has four kids, three girls and 7 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: one boy, but it's been years since they've seen them. 8 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: We would hear them every now and then in the backyard, 9 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: sometimes on the pool. Claudia told us those four kids 10 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: were adopted, so I remember the little ones say, hey, 11 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: you know now we have mama and Pappa. Were off together, 12 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, and they were happy because they didn't 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: have to be a part. Kielgia says about four to 14 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: five years ago she briefly car pulled with Alloyed Us 15 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 1: and would take the three oldest kids to a local 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: elementary school. We would drop off two girls and then 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: maybe like a week later, a young boy he started kindergarten. 18 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: I remember because he was really small, and all of 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: a sudden they told us they were going to be 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: homeschooled and we haven't seen them ever since. Well, right there, 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: that's a red flag to me that you never see 22 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: your neighbor's children. I mean, if you can't see them, 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: you can at least hear them playing in the backyard, 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: playing basketball, running through the water sprinkler. But nothing. Time passes, 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: and ever sister children began being homeschooled. The neighbors saw 26 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: her and knew nothing. With me and all star panel 27 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know to be true 28 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: first of all, Joining us from child Help dot Org. 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,559 Speaker 1: Daphne Young, She's a national Chief Communication Officer of Child Help. 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: Melissa Hotmeyer, the Chief of the Special Victims and Family 31 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: Violence Unit and Prince George County and you can find 32 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: her and her No Grayson podcast and Rite Response Consulting. 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, Joining us out 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: of La and she's the star of a brand new 35 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: series on Netflix, Bling Empire. Dan Scott with Me, former 36 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: La County Sheriffs Sergeant twenty six years with a Special 37 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: Victims Bureau specializing in child abuse. Doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologists, 38 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: former medical examiner and author not only of Homicide Investigation 39 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: Field Guide, but Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide to boot. 40 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: She is a former police detective. But first two special 41 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: guests joining us. Mary Joe Pitzel, the senior reporter with 42 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: the Arizona Republic and her expertise is covering child well 43 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: being at risk children and you can find her at 44 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: azcentral dot com. You know, Mary Joe Pitzel. I have 45 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: a very dear cousin that home schools, and I thought 46 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: the whole idea was just wacky because I grew up 47 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: in public schools and it socializes you. You get this 48 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: great education, and I couldn't understand why would she want 49 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: to home school? And I looked at their curriculum. It 50 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: was incredible. And when I visit to them, the children 51 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: were so articulate and really brainiacts and very well adjusted. 52 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time and energy to home school. 53 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: I mean, Mary Joe, it's not like me when the 54 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: children asked me a math problem, I have to go 55 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: hide in the closet and look it up on Google 56 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: and then walk out. Like I knew that. That gets exhausting. 57 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: Homeschooling is no easy task. But these parents seemingly love 58 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: their children so much they took them all out of 59 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: school to home school. How did they end up in 60 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: this home to start with Mary. The children were in 61 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 1: the Arizona foster care system, and the Mirabelle and Raphael 62 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: Lorera were foster parents, and they took in these children, 63 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, at different at different stages as they moved 64 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: through the system and then came to adopt them. We 65 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: really don't know a lot about their life or their 66 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: motivations for fostering and for adopting, much less to motivation 67 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: for homeschooling. So how many and all did they adopt? 68 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: How many children were living in the home? Mary Joe? Four? 69 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: Four children living in the home? Guys, take a listen 70 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: to our friend Claudia Rupchick at ABC fifteen. Police say 71 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: on January twentieth, they got a call from an eleven 72 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: year old who was alone in the house. Officers discovered 73 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: evidence of child abuse, and the Arizona Department of Child 74 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: Cety removed that child. A dcspokesperson tells ABC fifteen they 75 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: learned of additional children, and after getting authorization from the court, 76 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: they went back to the house Tuesday to remove to 77 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: other kids, a nine and a four year old. About 78 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: an hour later, firefighters responded to a fire at that 79 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: theme home. First of all, to Daphne Young the national 80 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: Chief Communications Officer with Child Help. If you've never been 81 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: to childhelp dot org, please visit childhelp dot org. It 82 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: really has changed so much of what we know about 83 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: helping abused children. Daphne. First of all, you know, I 84 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: can hear our neighbors children all the time. I can 85 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: hear our other neighbors grandchildren, and I don't see them, 86 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: but I can hear them playing. And I find it 87 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: really odd that nobody can hear or see these children 88 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: for three or four years. Passing to me, that's a 89 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: big red flag. And yet when you see that this 90 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: child finally makes this call after two days of being hungry, 91 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: a starving little girl picks up the phone and makes 92 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: the call. What we know a lot about abused children 93 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: is that they keep quiet. They stay silent. These abusers 94 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: lord over the house like jailers, and they know if 95 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: they reach out to another child, if they interact with neighbors, 96 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: if they go to school in certain instances, that they'll 97 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: be found out. And so once a crime is committed 98 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: or abuse is rampant, they make sure to lock down 99 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: that house and keep it quiet. Melissa Hotmeyer with me, 100 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: Chief the Special Victims of Family Violence Unit, Prince George County, Melissa. 101 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: I was at the District Attorney's office doing various siments 102 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: for a while before I got a child abuse case, 103 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: and it was horrible. A millionaire in Atlanta. He owned all, 104 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: practically all the horse and livery trade, you know, like 105 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: those horse drawn carriages that take people on tours, limos 106 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: from the airport, that kind of thing. And his live 107 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: in had three girls, a teen girl that chose to 108 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: move out of the home and live on her own, 109 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: a five year old girl and three year old girl. 110 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: The three and five year old had been molested, full 111 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: blown sex with the rich boyfriend, full blown with a 112 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: three year old and a five year old girl. I 113 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: got to looking, Melissa Hotmeyer into this guy's history. He 114 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: had I think it was thirty five natural children that 115 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: he had fathered with all these different women, and his 116 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: molestation went all the way back too, I guess the 117 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: late seventies. I found one of his oldest daughters living 118 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: in a flop house smelling like gin and cigarettes. She 119 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: went to school with a black eye and a busted lip, 120 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: and the school detectives tried to find out what happened, 121 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: but they couldn't. That's the first that I knew of 122 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: him molesting his children. So you know, what Daphne Young 123 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: is saying is true. If the children aren't going to 124 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: school or church or synagogue or mosque, whatever, if they're 125 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: not dealing with neighbors and other children, nobody knows what's happening. Melissa, Yeah, 126 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: we'll try. I mean, that is our social safety net. 127 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: I know you've talked about it on other other shows. 128 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: We need that social safety net. We need the people 129 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: to say something, to see something. And if they're keeping 130 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: those kids at home, you know, we don't have that 131 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: safety net. We don't have anybody going into the home 132 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: and checking on the kids. And that's really when a 133 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: horrific abuse can happen. Well, well see, you remember your 134 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: first child abuse case. I do something you never get over. Yeah, 135 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: you never get over. I never got over any of them. 136 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: Children beaten. One child and a vegetative state, a coma 137 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: for the rest of her life. She's three, and I 138 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: remember one of the few times I teared up in 139 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: open court. I found out not only was she in 140 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: a vegetative state, this three year old, but she had 141 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: also been raped a three year old. Yeah, you never 142 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: get past those crime stories. With Nancy Grace. Guys were 143 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: talking about the so called girl in the wall. What 144 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: in the head does that mean? Well, don't put the 145 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: cart before the horse. To Mary J. Pitzel joining a 146 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: senior reporter or Arizona Republic, Mary Joe, we heard Daphne 147 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: Young mentioned why the eleven year old little girl had 148 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: to call nine one one, And let me tell you something. 149 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: As you well know, Mary Joe, this is your expertise. 150 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: That's a tip of the iceberg. But why did the 151 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: eleven year old girl call police? She had been home 152 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: alone for two days. Her parents weren't there, her siblings 153 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: weren't there. I think her mom and two of the 154 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: children had gone out of state. Lord knows where dad was. 155 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: We haven't learned anything about that yet. She was alone 156 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: and hungry and scared, and she did what a lot 157 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: of kids know from watching TV and maybe from being 158 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: instructed by their parents. But she called nine one one, 159 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: and it really was the tip of the iceberg. How 160 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: many other children were in the home when she called 161 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: nine one one? None? So she was left all alone? Yes, 162 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: you know? To you doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Doctor Bethany Marshall, 163 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: Dot com doctor Bethanie. Do you remember when I was 164 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: trying to have children and got pregnant with the twins? Yes? 165 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: I do. You know what people go through, including me, 166 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: to have children. And why would you even want children 167 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: if you're going to trade them like that, doctor Bethny. 168 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: Because having power over a child, or using a child 169 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: for some other gain other than nurturing and providing for 170 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: and being there for the child, is ascendant in the 171 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: parent's mind. You know, we imagine because we all love children. 172 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: I can't. I can't even watch a child walk down 173 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: the street with their parents without staring. There's such beautiful 174 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: little creatures. But you know, not all adults love children. 175 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: Some adults are either not bonded, they're detached, they hate 176 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: the child they resent. Okay, you know, doctor Bethany, I 177 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: typically agree with everything you say. But not bonded, my 178 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: rear end they're starving this child. That's a heck of 179 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: a lot more than not bonded. I want to circle 180 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: back in just a moment so I can continue my 181 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: argument with you, but I want you to take a 182 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: listen to our friend Bianco Bono kp in X. Twelve 183 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: minutes after DCS left the Layira's home near fifty ninth 184 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: Avenue and Camelback going up in flames in a fire. 185 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: Authorities say they intentionally set Firefighters then finding charismas skeleton 186 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: in the attic. Detectives now say the Layerra's murdered her 187 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: based on the way that the body was found and 188 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: some of the evidence that was collected. Abuses believed to happen. 189 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: They are very strong. Priscilla feels cheated that she never 190 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: got the chance to reconnect with Charisma, looking forward to 191 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: getting justice for her daughter. I want them to suffer 192 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: what they're thought their thoughts, to torture them like what 193 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: they did to my children. And police are not elaborating 194 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: on exactly what happened to Charisma. Okay, let me understand 195 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: Mary J. Pittsel. Police get called out when the eleven 196 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: year old little girl calls all alone, nothing to eat 197 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: for at least two days. We know at one time 198 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: there were brothers and sisters. So shortly after police leave 199 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: that scene, the fire goes up in flames. How does 200 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: that translate to finding a little girl a body in 201 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: the attic in the wall. There is one more step 202 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: in between their nancy. After they removed the eleven year old. 203 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: They came back to that they found out that, yeah, 204 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: she's got She says she had two siblings, a brother 205 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: and a sister, but they were out of town. So 206 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: investigators go back a day or two later, everybody's home, 207 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: and they removed the other two children out of concerned 208 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: that they've been neglected. After those two kids are removed 209 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: and within about a half hour, amazingly, the house um 210 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: the house fire and and an alarm goes out, and 211 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: fire officials show up to fight the fire. And while 212 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: they're doing that, they um, you know, common tactics. They 213 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: punched a hole up into the ceiling and I think 214 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: it was a washroom and okay, white remains came down. 215 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: I don't drink it from the fire hydrant right here. Okay, 216 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: let me understand what you just told me. Okay, And guys, 217 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: this is what you hear. If you hear, prosecutors try 218 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong. Melissa Hotmeyer trying to 219 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: get a handle on their case. It always happened to 220 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: me at the medical Examiner's office. No offense, doctor dupree, 221 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: But they talk in medical trumps and I would have 222 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: to go, wait, what what what? What does that mean, 223 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: so when I stand up in front of a jury, 224 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: I can explain it because I understand it. So, Mary Joe, 225 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: you're saying, they go to the home with the eleven 226 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: year old starving, they take her. Then from her, they 227 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: find out there are other brothers and sisters. They go 228 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: back to the home a few days later, the family's home. 229 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: They take those two children out because eleven year old 230 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: has been starved and left alone, so CPS Chop Potato 231 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: Services takes them out. Shortly after that, the house goes 232 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: up in flames. Now, this is a part I want 233 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: you to repeat. I've done a lot of arsons, and 234 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: one of the things they do is break through the wall. 235 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes it changes the air flow. There's a lot of 236 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: reasons they do it. So what did they do, Mary Joe? 237 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: Firefighters come in. They're trying to put out the fire 238 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: before the whole house gets consumed, and they punch holes 239 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: in ceilings and walls, as you said, to let air 240 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: flow to try to control the fire. And that's when 241 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: they find another alarming discovery, which is skeletal remains have 242 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: tumbled down. Some are still up in the attic, some 243 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: have come down when they knocked out the ceiling fallen 244 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: onto the floor found in the drywall. Later, some skeletal 245 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: remains were found in the family's backyard, and that's I'm 246 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: unclear on how that happened. That might be when investigators 247 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: fiery investigators were removing things from the home and trying 248 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: to literally piece together what they had found of these 249 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: skeletal remains, which appeared to be of a young girl. 250 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: So this little girl skeleton was behind drywall in the 251 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: attic and no one knew straight out to doctor Michel Dupre, 252 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: forensic pathologists form a medical examiner, how do you determine, 253 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: based on examining the skeletal remains, how long the child 254 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: had been dead? Nancy, We can estimate that from the 255 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: actual condition that the remains are in and the condition 256 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: where they were found. Heat, of course, speeds up decomposition, 257 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: so we take those things into consideration when we examine 258 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: the remains of skeleton. So I'm sure she was totally skeletonized. 259 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: In other words, there was no flesh or tissue on her. 260 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: If so, doctor Michelle dupris, how could they just look 261 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: at skeletal remains, assuming there were no clothes, and determined 262 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: it was a girl? Nancy females and males have a 263 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: different skeletal structure. For example, we can look at the head. 264 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: We also look at the jaw line, and we also 265 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: look at the pelvis. Pelvis areas typically give us an 266 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: indication whether it's male or female in what way? Um, Well, 267 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: female skeletons are more heart shaped, and that's so that 268 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: they can have babies and passed through the birth canal. 269 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: Male skeletons are shaped much differently. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You, guys, 270 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: we are talking about the girl in the wall, the 271 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: girl in the attic. Those words alone should send a 272 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: chill down your spine. When firefighters rush to the scene 273 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: and begin fighting a blaze and a home. What falls down, 274 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: what rains down from the attic? The bones of a 275 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: little girl? Back to you, Mary, Joe put So take 276 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: a listen to our friend. Zach Crenshaw ABC fifteen DCS 277 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: was first called out here nine days ago because an 278 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: eleven year old girl said she was left here completely 279 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: alone and afraid. They said that she had clearly been amused, 280 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: and they removed her from the home. Well, just yesterday 281 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: investigators came back because they realized two other kids were 282 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: still living in this home. Just one hour after they 283 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: removed those final kids, they saw smoke billowing from this house, 284 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: and detectives say it was the parents trying to cover 285 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: up their most horrific crime. For more than twenty four hours, 286 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: investigators have been working outside the Loretra home, rummaging through 287 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: trash bags next to kids toys, bringing in an arson dog, 288 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: even removing the remains of a child, a child detectives 289 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: believe father Raphael tried to burn. He is also alleged 290 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: to have admitted to have hidden a corpse firefighters douncing 291 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: the flames before all the evidence could be destroyed. Now, 292 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: police allege, while Raphael helped, his wife, Marabel was the 293 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: main source of abuse. So once again we hear the 294 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: story one parent is doing all the abuse while the 295 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: other parents stands by and watches. To Mary Joe Pittzel, 296 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: Senior reporter, Arizona Republic, isn't it true that the parent 297 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: the cops CPS, takes the original little girl away who 298 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: was alone and starving. They find out there were brothers 299 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: and sisters. They go back a couple of days later 300 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: to get their brothers and sisters, and those were two children, 301 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: a nine year old boy and a four year old girl. 302 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: And when they got there, isn't it true the mother, Maribellarey, 303 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: refused to come out of the house. Instead, she takes 304 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: the children outside and they hand over the children in 305 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: the yard. She won't the mom and dad won't let 306 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: CPS back in the home. Yes, and raised the suspicions 307 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: parents have. They do have a right to keep somebody 308 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: out of their house unless they show up with the warrant, 309 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: although in this case, I think that the Department of 310 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: Child Safety should have had a warrant for the removal 311 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: of those two children and should have been able to 312 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: um obtain access to the house. So they go back 313 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: for the children, but they only get two. You know 314 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: what happened? I assume they can count? Didn't they notice 315 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: there wasn't the third remaining child, Mary Joe? Um No? 316 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: At that point you know, again, it had been two 317 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: years since the oldest child had died. She had her 318 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: siblings were told that she had moved to another state. 319 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: They she was out of their lives, so the their 320 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: existence was the three of them. So after the second 321 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: removal of the brother and the sister, that cleared the 322 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: house of children. And as we saw, soon after a 323 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: fire started. We're trying to take in this sequence of events, 324 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: take a list of guys to our friends at Katie 325 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: VK three TV Alisa. On January twentieth, they came to 326 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: this home because an eleven year old girl called to 327 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: say who was scared and alone. Cops found evidence of 328 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: child abuse in the Department of Child Safety took custody 329 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: of that girl when we came out here on January twentieth. 330 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: Eleven year was the only child in the home at 331 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: that time. Then yesterday DCS came back to the house 332 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: taking away two more kids, Majors nine and four, after 333 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: finding more evidence of child abuse. Police say, just about 334 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: an hour after DCS took those kids, someone called to 335 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: report that the house was on fire. Quhoenix Fire Department 336 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: gets out here. They make entry to the home, extinguish 337 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 1: the fire. When they're in there, they discover what they 338 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: believed to be skeletal remains. Well. Obviously, Dan Scott, former 339 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: La County Sheriff sergeant twenty six years Special Victim Subureau 340 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: specializing in child abuse. They were afraid. The parents, Mirabelle 341 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: and Raphael Area clearly realized CPS is going to figure 342 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: out there's a child missing, so they started to burn 343 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: down the house to get rid of the evidence. True, 344 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure when they're going to figure it out. 345 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: These were foster children. They went back to the house, 346 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: and they didn't know one child was missing. They should 347 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: have had a record of all the children, and there 348 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: should have been regular checks on these kids. I don't 349 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: get it. The sequence of events is shocking. The climb 350 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: is shocking, but the fact that no one saw this 351 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: and it took a week to go back, it's like 352 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. 353 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to pick on DCFS, but if law 354 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: enforcement had been there, they had exigent circumstances to go 355 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: look for that last child when mom wouldn't let him 356 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: in the house. And when the children were asked about 357 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: the old her sister, they were told she was adopted 358 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: and sent to Mexico. That's the story they told. Another 359 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: issue back to you, Mary, Joe Pitzel. The home when 360 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: they first went to get the eleven year old girl 361 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: that was left alone in itself show clear signs of abuse. 362 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: The floor was littered with feces, the home was on camp, 363 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: the little girl was starved. What can you tell us 364 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: about the condition of the home. Not We don't know 365 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: a whole lot more. Again, because the detailed police reports 366 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: have not yet been released because this case is awaiting 367 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: a criminal trial. So what we know is what we 368 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: what we received from police at the scene, and a 369 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: little bit that we got from the medical examiner report, 370 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: although it didn't focus so much on the home, but 371 00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: it was a standard rant house on a corner lot, 372 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: and I really don't know much else about the interior 373 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: conditions except well, I'm looking at the complaint, the actual complaint. 374 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: The direct complaint paperwork states officers found the inside of 375 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: the home filthy with what appeared to be human feces 376 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: throughout the residence on the floors. Officers say they found 377 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: evidence of child abuse, and that is when the eleven 378 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: year old girl was taken into custody. I mean, doctor 379 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. Having a pet maybe in the home that 380 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: urinated or pooped somewhere, that's one thing, right, But having 381 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: feces throughout the entire home everywhere, and the home being filthy, 382 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: that in itself is a type of abuse. It is 383 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: it's neglect, Nancy, and throughout my entire thirty year career, 384 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: I've often wondered what causes a person to be unable 385 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: to see when they're living in a mess. Feces on 386 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: the floor, you know, food all over the place. All 387 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: the pictures we've seen of homes where there's child abuse, 388 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: burned mattresses, broken toys, it's as if the parents can't 389 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: really see what's going on around them. But there's often 390 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: something even more sinister, Nancy, and it underscores every single 391 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: type of child abuse, and that is resentment towards the 392 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: child for having meats. This is why the children are 393 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: starved and skinny. It's not just because the parents don't 394 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: have money for food or you know, a hoarding the 395 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: food for themselves. When the child eats, the parent imagines 396 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: the child to be greedy. It's sick and twisted. I've 397 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: seen and heard of parents actually putting padlocks on the 398 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: refrigerator in order to keep the children from eating. You 399 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: and I've covered so many stories before where it's one 400 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: brave child who finally calls nine one one, and then 401 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: there's a whole group of children behind them that are starving. 402 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: In the home crime stories with Nancy Grace. For those 403 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: of you just joining us, we are talking about the 404 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: girl in the wall, the girl in the attic. When 405 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: firefighters go to a home to put out a blaze, 406 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: they're punching out ceilings and walls and low and behold, 407 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: human bones rain down on them. Even more sadly, these 408 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: are the bones of a little girl, almost immediately identifiable 409 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: as a little girl. That's why they were burning the 410 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: home because, Melissa Hotmeyer, according to firefighters record that I've read, 411 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: the smoke was not coming from the fireplace or the kitchen, 412 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: where you'd expect it to come from. It was coming 413 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: out of an at vent. So they put they set 414 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: the attic on fire to start with. And that's very 415 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: easy to discern from an arson investigation. You can easily 416 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: tell where a fire started. Number one, Where the fire 417 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 1: starts initially will be the part of the structure that 418 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: is the most damaged because the fire burned the longest. 419 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: Very often there you'll find evidence of an accelerant or 420 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: how the fire started. So that's where the fire started, 421 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: was in the attic. So the question is why. But 422 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: my question to you, Melissa Hotmere is I've seen a 423 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: lot of cases where the children are denied food while 424 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: the parents eat as much as they want that's its 425 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: own type of torture. Absolutely, and you know there are 426 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: so many states that have torture statutes specifically for this reason, 427 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: because parents engage in a pattern of behavior of withholding 428 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: food and watch making children watch them eat, all the 429 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,239 Speaker 1: while abusing them at the same time, and they need 430 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: to be held accountable for those types of that. I mean, 431 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: Dafy Young joining us from Childhelp, and I encourage you 432 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: to go to childhelp dot org. Learn what I learned 433 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: the first time I went there, Dafy Young. Other than 434 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: beating a child, what could be more horrible than to 435 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: starve the child and make the child watch you eat 436 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: a full blown meal. I remember you remember the House 437 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: of Horrors the Turpins in California, where they would starve 438 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: the children and they would actually chain them to their beds, 439 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: and they would bring home pies from the deli counter 440 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: at the grocery store and they would gorge on the 441 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: pie while the children would be forced to watch them. Nancy, 442 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: I remember a case where this is right here in Arizona, 443 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: where they put a metal security gate on a door 444 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: inside the house so that a child could smell the 445 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: food walking through the gate and have to sit there 446 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: and starve by day by day, hair falling out, belly distended, 447 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: while the family enjoyed a meal. And that child was 448 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: the sacrificial child that we've seen so many times in 449 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: these cases, Nancy, if I could jump in, too often 450 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: they choose one child to love and one child to hate, 451 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: one child to abuse and torture, and one child to 452 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: put on a pedestal. Pedestal. I wrote a paper on 453 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: a case from my practice. A woman now an adult, 454 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: but when she was a child, her mother would cook 455 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: elaborate meals for her older sister and then make her 456 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: sit in the corner and watch them eat. She wasn't 457 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: allowed to go to the table. And this happened all 458 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: throughout her developmental years. And you can imagine and now 459 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: that she's an adult, the trauma she feels. But I'm 460 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: thinking about the bones that fell through the dry wall, 461 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm wondering if that child was starved or 462 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: particularly tortured, or even though all the children were obviously 463 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: neglected and tortured, perhaps even sexually abused, did this particular 464 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: child get it worse than all the rest? And that's 465 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: why the others survived in this one is dead, that's 466 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: my same thought. I was considering that along with the 467 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: possibility that now the eleven year old girl that was 468 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: left alone and being starved was victim number two. In 469 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: other words, we have killed your sister, you saw what 470 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: happened to her, your next and then all the children 471 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: fall in line waiting for their turn to be the 472 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: next Cinderella child, if you will, which is a simple 473 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: term for a very horrific experience. Is that Melissa or 474 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: Daphne speaking? That's Daphne. I gotta tell you. I don't 475 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: know about the rest of you, guys, but let me 476 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: ask you, Dan Scott. I have a really hard time 477 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: doing this because I keep imagining my son or my daughter. 478 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm especially imagining my daughter because we're talking about the 479 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: girl in the wall and the eleven year old who 480 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: was starved in called nine one one. I mean, Dan, 481 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: it has to take a toll on all of us 482 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: who have investigated or worked cases like this. I mean, 483 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: how did you do that? As an Elle County Sheriff, 484 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: an Ella County Sheriff sergeant. How do you separate the 485 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: case from your life? I believe it. First of all, 486 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: it takes a special kind of person to be able 487 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: to do this, and you have to separate it and 488 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: whether it's an investigation or a prosecutor or a medical examiner, 489 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 1: the entire multidea disciplinary team. We have to look for 490 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: the little victories. Obviously, in this case, the victories are 491 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: the children that were saved. We can't save them all, unfortunately, 492 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: and that's such a tragedy. But we have to look 493 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: at those children that have been pulled out of that 494 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: home and saved, and hopefully they were placed in a 495 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: home with loving parents, loving foster parents, and there are 496 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: a lot of good foster parents that are great. Yes, 497 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: that's true. And what's so odd about this One of 498 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: the many odd things is if you look at these 499 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: foster parents now defendants, you'd never suspect what they really are. 500 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a listen to the neighbors. 501 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: This is from KTVK three. I'm one of those neighbors, 502 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: Like I never would have thought next to me disbelief 503 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: that this man's neighbor with fifty six year old Raphael 504 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: Loetta and he's in jail tonight charged with arson, child 505 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: abuse and concealment of body parts. The guy seems like 506 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: a good guy. The male there that they lives there. 507 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: He's an older gentleman. Said he works at a school 508 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: or something. The sources confirmed that Raphael Loia worked as 509 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: a teacher's aide at Sierra Linda High School in the 510 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: Thomason School district. Seem like a guy that would hurt somebody, 511 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, doesn't seem like a guy that would hurt somebody. 512 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: How these people blend in to Melissa Hotmeyer, I it's 513 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: always amazes me, but they do. Neighbors, co workers have 514 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: no idea what they're doing to their children at home. Yeah, 515 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that every chief I have, the 516 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: more horrific the child abuse, the more neighbors and even 517 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: family are like they were the perfect parent. These these 518 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: individuals are good at hiding, um, the monster that these 519 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: children see. They're sociopath. I'm not a doctor. I'm a 520 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 1: JD just like Unancy, but they are experts at hiding 521 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: the abuse that they're performing. If I could jump in 522 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: about that, Nancy, this is why it's so important for 523 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: dcfs to see the inside of the home. One of 524 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: the things that's been happening during the pandemic is that 525 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: my colleagues and I are seeing inside people's homes via zoom. 526 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: We see their pets, so we see their homes. We 527 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: see a child walk through, and some of us are 528 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: shocked by what we've seen, and we're concluding that you 529 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: can't really know the patient unless you see how they live. 530 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: And if anybody had gone inside this home, it would 531 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: have told a completely different story. With the human feces 532 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: on the floor and you know everything else that you've described, 533 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: the neglect would have been apparent right away. So foster 534 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: children should not be in a home without other adults 535 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: laying eyes on them. I just heard a story yesterday 536 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: in my practice. Thirty three year old successful man with 537 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: his own TV show well known, his dad abused him 538 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: repeatedly during childhood, and when f came to question, the 539 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: dad hid a baby monitor behind the fruit bowl, went upstairs, 540 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: hid in a bedroom and said to my patient, if 541 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: you say anything about me, I'm going to be listening 542 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: in another room. And so dcfs couldn't even conduct an 543 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: appropriate interview. So I think that our methodologies have to 544 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: continue to change with what we know about human behavior 545 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: and abuse. Well, of course, a daylight and a dollar short, 546 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: here comes the bio mom. Take a listen to KTVK. 547 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: There's no words to explain because my baby laid in 548 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,919 Speaker 1: there helpless. Okay, so where's she been all this time? 549 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: Mary J. Petzel? I know the children were originally taken 550 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: away from their bio mom as she dealt with her 551 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: drug addiction, but she allegedly got clean. Now she's complaining 552 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: that the state didn't do a background check on the 553 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: foster parents. These kids. Not only they went into the 554 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:02,479 Speaker 1: foster system, but then they were adopted. Um, their their 555 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: first names, their names were changed. She didn't know where 556 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: these kids were until this crime happens. Um, that's why 557 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: she came forward. Whose fault is that? Um? Who's Well, 558 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: if that's the way the law works, I mean, if 559 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: once a child's adopted. Um, well, I mean she had 560 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 1: the right to contest the adoption. Oh true, I mean 561 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: she she lost him out of place, Yeah, she was. 562 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: She her parental rights were terminated and um, and she 563 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: went about, you know, eventually getting clean. Um, as you said, 564 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: And yes, had lost her relationship with her children. All 565 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: we can hope for now is justice, and that is 566 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: a bitter cup of tea. Nancy Grace Crime's story, signing 567 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: off Goodbye