WEBVTT - Lucretia as a Symbol

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim

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<v Speaker 1>and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised.

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<v Speaker 2>One brief content note before I begin, I talk about

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<v Speaker 2>sexual violence and suicide in this episode, so if those

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<v Speaker 2>themes are something that you are particularly sensitive to, this

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<v Speaker 2>might be an episode to skip. The story of Medusa,

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<v Speaker 2>like many ancient legends, plays out differently depending on which

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<v Speaker 2>version you're reading. It was Avid, in his Greek mythology

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<v Speaker 2>fan fiction Metamorphoses, who introduced the version of Medusa's story

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<v Speaker 2>that most listeners are probably familiar with today. In that version,

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<v Speaker 2>Medusa was the daughter of a sea god who grew

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<v Speaker 2>up to be a beautiful young priestess of Athena or Minerva,

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<v Speaker 2>as the goddess would have been known to Avid and

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<v Speaker 2>the Romans. Medusa tragically caught the attention of Poseidon or Neptune,

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<v Speaker 2>who proceeded to rape her in Minerva's temple. Avid uses

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<v Speaker 2>the brutal word vitiace injure, defile, or damage to describe

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<v Speaker 2>the act. You might know what happens next in the story.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not Neptune who's punished, but Medusa herself. Her hair

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<v Speaker 2>is transformed into snakes by her own goddess. There is

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<v Speaker 2>a feminist reading of that outcome, in which some see

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<v Speaker 2>Minerva giving Medusa a means to protect herself against future assault.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a generous reading, as classic scholar Natalie Haynes reminds

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<v Speaker 2>us Minerva wasn't exactly a girl's girl, but it's also

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<v Speaker 2>a fairly depressing reading. In my view. Protected may be,

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<v Speaker 2>but Medusa's fate is also sealed. She will be a

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<v Speaker 2>monster to be hunted, and her severed head will later

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<v Speaker 2>be turned into a weapon for another's use. Avid's Metamorphosies

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<v Speaker 2>is far from a light read, both in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>its length and content. Sexual violence is pervasive throughout many

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<v Speaker 2>of its stories. Jokingly calling Metamorphoses Greek mythology fan fiction

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<v Speaker 2>is not really inaccurate, but it's also not fully painting

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<v Speaker 2>the whole picture. The text was meant to serve as

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<v Speaker 2>a history of the world from creation to the death

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<v Speaker 2>of Caesar. Just as it's pervasive in the pages of

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<v Speaker 2>the text, sexual violence is also pervasive in the history

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<v Speaker 2>of the world. Avid followed Metamorphosies with Fasti, which, instead

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<v Speaker 2>of focusing on Greek legends, finished wishes what the last

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<v Speaker 2>three books of Metamorphoses began turning the lens to Roman history, religion, culture,

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<v Speaker 2>and figures. Because both books blend genre, and because of

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<v Speaker 2>the time they were written, much of the content in

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<v Speaker 2>both Metamorphoses and Fosti fall somewhere in between myth and history.

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<v Speaker 2>The noble woman Lucretia and the famous story of the

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<v Speaker 2>rape she suffered at the hands of Sextus Tarquinius, who

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<v Speaker 2>is also known as Tarquin, is one such mythohistory found

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<v Speaker 2>in the pages of Avid's Fasti. Some historians take an

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<v Speaker 2>extreme view on Lucretia's story, claiming that it was a

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<v Speaker 2>complete fabrication, but the more widely accepted understanding is that

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<v Speaker 2>the legend probably grew out of real events, but that

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<v Speaker 2>it was later shaped or metamorphosed over time to create

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<v Speaker 2>a poignant, symbolic narrative. Though Medusa and Lucretia hail from

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<v Speaker 2>different cultures and different Ovid poems, their stories say a

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<v Speaker 2>lot in conversation with one another. They were both daughters

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<v Speaker 2>of powerful fathers, both hailed for their beauty and purity,

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<v Speaker 2>both were raped by men with more power than they had,

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<v Speaker 2>and in death they both became weapons to be yielded

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<v Speaker 2>by yet more powerful men. But where Medusa's head was

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<v Speaker 2>quite literally wielded by Perseus, who used it to turn

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<v Speaker 2>his own enemies to stone, Lucretia's body became more of

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<v Speaker 2>a symbolic weapon. After her rape and subsequent suicide, her

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<v Speaker 2>body was displayed on the streets by revolutionaries to incite rebellion.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's suicide after her assault is known as the catalyst

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<v Speaker 2>that led to the fall of the Roman monarchy, the

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<v Speaker 2>reason that the Roman Empire no longer had kings. The

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<v Speaker 2>story of the ideal Roman woman driven to take her

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<v Speaker 2>own life because of the actions of a man drunk

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<v Speaker 2>on his own power became itself a powerful enough narrative

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<v Speaker 2>to be, as the French philosopher Pierre Bale put it, quote,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the hinges on which the history of the

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<v Speaker 2>Romans turns. Perhaps more critically, we can look at Lucretia

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<v Speaker 2>through the words of Simone de Beauvois, who wrote that

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<v Speaker 2>it is through women that quote certain historical events have

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<v Speaker 2>been set off, but the women have been pretexts rather

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<v Speaker 2>than agents. The suicide of Lucretia has had value only

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<v Speaker 2>as symbol. But where did the story and the symbol

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<v Speaker 2>come from? What role has it played in different moments

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<v Speaker 2>and history? And is it possible to know who Lucretia

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<v Speaker 2>was really or will she always be in the hands

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<v Speaker 2>of men using her for their ends. I'm Dana Schwartz,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is noble blood. Just as with the myth

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<v Speaker 2>of Medusa, the story of Lucretia will differ from historian

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<v Speaker 2>to historian, storyteller to storyteller. The first recorded account of

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's story comes from the Roman historian Livy in his

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<v Speaker 2>History of Rome, written nearly five hundred years after the

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<v Speaker 2>event described. Before Livy, the story existed in oral tradition,

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<v Speaker 2>and after him it would continue on in the hands

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<v Speaker 2>of other writers and historians like Dionysus of Halikarnassis, Dio,

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<v Speaker 2>Cassius Avid, and eventually Shakespeare, Machiavelli, and Rousseau, each with

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<v Speaker 2>their own interpretation and agenda in their tellings. The scholar

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<v Speaker 2>ian Donaldson, in his book Rapes of Lucretia, A Myth

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<v Speaker 2>and Its Transformations, reconstructs the earliest versions of the story

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<v Speaker 2>to give a composite picture of what might have been

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<v Speaker 2>the quote historic event. It goes like this. In five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and nine BC, the Roman King Tarquinis Superbus was

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<v Speaker 2>attempting a siege of the town of Ardea. One night

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<v Speaker 2>during the siege, a group of noblemen, the king's son

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<v Speaker 2>among them, were having a wife off, boasting about whose

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<v Speaker 2>wife was the most virtuous, the most beautiful, the most exemplary.

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<v Speaker 2>One nobleman, Calatinus, insisted that his wife, Lucretia, daughter of

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<v Speaker 2>the magistrate Lucretius, was second to none, her virtue the

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<v Speaker 2>most virtuous, her beauty the most beauteous. When the boasting

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<v Speaker 2>turned competitive, it was suggested that the group would make

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty somethingter mile trip back to Rome to assess

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<v Speaker 2>each wife themselves. Most of the wives were found together

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<v Speaker 2>chatting and engaging in idle pastimes, but Lucretia hashtag not

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<v Speaker 2>like other girls, was found at home alone spinning wool

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<v Speaker 2>homemaking while her husband was away on the front lines.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia won the contest of best and most wife. Though

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<v Speaker 2>the story begins light and even a little bit silly

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<v Speaker 2>to our modern ears, the story takes a dark turn.

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<v Speaker 2>In Livy's words in translation, the king's son quote Sextus

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<v Speaker 2>Tarquinius was seized with a wicked desire to debauch Lucretia

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<v Speaker 2>by force. Not only her beauty, but her proved chastity

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<v Speaker 2>as well provoked him. The men returned to Ardia, but

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<v Speaker 2>Tarquin later returned alone. Lucretia courteously received the king's son

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<v Speaker 2>as anyone would be expected to, giving him food and

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<v Speaker 2>a room to stay in for the night, but when

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<v Speaker 2>the household was asleep, he entered her bedroom in the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of the night with a sword on his person.

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<v Speaker 2>Tarquin first attempted to seduce Lucretia with promises to marry

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<v Speaker 2>her and make her queen, but when that didn't work,

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<v Speaker 2>he turned to threats. If he couldn't have her, he

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<v Speaker 2>would kill her. She continued to deny him, and so

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<v Speaker 2>he came up with another plan. He threatened to kill

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<v Speaker 2>not only her but also one of his slaves, and

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<v Speaker 2>to place their naked bodies in her bed together and

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<v Speaker 2>then claim he found them together and killed them in outrage.

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<v Speaker 2>The posthumous shame of that final threat was too much

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<v Speaker 2>for Lucretia. She stopped resisting, and Tarquin proceeded to rape her.

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<v Speaker 2>The following morning, Lucretia summoned her father, Lucretius and her

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<v Speaker 2>husband Calatinus, to their home, and she asked each of

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<v Speaker 2>them to bring a trusted friend. Calatinus brought Lucius Junius Brutus,

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<v Speaker 2>not the A two guy, to be very clear, but

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<v Speaker 2>a nephew of King Superbus, a nephew and not a fan.

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<v Speaker 2>Brutus was generally thought of as an idiot, but he

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<v Speaker 2>was in reality putting on an act of ignorance, waiting

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<v Speaker 2>for his moment to get revenge on the king who

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<v Speaker 2>murdered his father and brother. And so with those four

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<v Speaker 2>men gathered, Lucretia told the story of what happened the

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<v Speaker 2>night before, and when she was done telling the story,

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<v Speaker 2>she revealed a knife beneath her garments, which she used

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<v Speaker 2>to stab herself and die. Brudus removed the knife from

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<v Speaker 2>her body and swore an oath by the blood of

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia none more chaste. Tell a tyrant wronged her that

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<v Speaker 2>he would drive the Tarquins from Rome. With that, a

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<v Speaker 2>revolution began to form. Lucretia's body was displayed at the

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<v Speaker 2>Forum in Rome, where Brudus rallied the Romans by showing

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<v Speaker 2>them the tyranny of the Tarquins and its consequences. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a successful publicity campaign and the people drove the

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<v Speaker 2>royal family out of Rome, vowing to have no more kings.

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<v Speaker 2>Brudus and Lucretia's husband Calatinus were installed as the first

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<v Speaker 2>consuls of the Roman Republic. The end or is it?

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<v Speaker 2>That is the SparkNotes version of events, but technically yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The last mention of Lucretia in her story is that

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<v Speaker 2>of her body on display while she was alive. However,

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<v Speaker 2>she does get a bit more characterization in other versions

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<v Speaker 2>of her story. In Livy's telling, Lucretia has a poignant

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<v Speaker 2>rallying speech before she takes her life, quote, my body

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<v Speaker 2>alone has been violated. My heart is guiltless, as death

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<v Speaker 2>shall be my witness. But pledge your right hands and

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<v Speaker 2>your words that the adulterer shall not go unpunished. Her

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<v Speaker 2>death is than heroic, even masculine in a sense, as

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<v Speaker 2>death by night was not traditionally associated with women at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, It's portrayed as a morally virtuous death. Lucretia

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<v Speaker 2>is killing herself, she explains, so that promiscuous women cannot

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<v Speaker 2>use her as an example to justify their own actions. Avid,

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<v Speaker 2>for his part, gives Lucretia more dialogue in the story's

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<v Speaker 2>beginning when she laments the danger her husband may be

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<v Speaker 2>in on the front lines, and when she joyously throws

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<v Speaker 2>herself into his arms upon his return, even in front

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<v Speaker 2>of all of his comrades. Lucretia is portrayed as devoted

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<v Speaker 2>and tender, while also sheltered and a little naive. Avid

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<v Speaker 2>also gives us a physical description for the first time.

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<v Speaker 2>Her complexion is snowy, she uses no cosmetics, her hair

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<v Speaker 2>is golden and flowing freely. It's this physical Lucretia that

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<v Speaker 2>we will most often see in artistic depictions to come.

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<v Speaker 2>Her appearance was a feminine ideal. By Avid's time, most

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<v Speaker 2>Roman women had dark hair and an olive complexion to

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<v Speaker 2>imitate the desirable German beauty standard. Sex workers were actually

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<v Speaker 2>known to wear blonde wigs, while women across classes wore

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<v Speaker 2>chalk on their faces to appear paler. Lucretia's characterization through

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<v Speaker 2>her words, actions, and appearance, then all serves to portray

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<v Speaker 2>her as an ideal in every sense. But what happens

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<v Speaker 2>when you kill an ideal? Avid's telling takes an arguably

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<v Speaker 2>more human approach when compared to Livy. His Lucretia does

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<v Speaker 2>not die grandly, calling for revenge. Instead, the morning after

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<v Speaker 2>the horrific event, she's visibly disheveled and wearing a morning gown.

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<v Speaker 2>She's distraught and finds herself having trouble telling her father

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<v Speaker 2>and husband what has happened. This Lucretia is overcome by

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<v Speaker 2>grief and cannot find her heart guiltless. Instead, her last

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<v Speaker 2>words are quote, though you forgive me, I cannot forgive myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Only through death does Lucretia believe that she can preserve

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<v Speaker 2>her virtues. But her death becomes far bigger than that.

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<v Speaker 2>In the end, she doesn't just die for what she

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<v Speaker 2>saw as her sins, she also dies for the birth

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<v Speaker 2>of the republic. As the ideal woman of the Roman Republic,

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's death both literally and metaphorically expunged the tyrant and

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<v Speaker 2>his lineage from Rome, literally because she might have been

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<v Speaker 2>pregnant with the son of the son of the king.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's role in Roman history is not completely dissimilar from

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<v Speaker 2>that of an earlier woman in Roman mythology, one of

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<v Speaker 2>the famed Vestal virgins, Raya Silvia, who according to legend,

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<v Speaker 2>was raped by Mars and gave birth to Ramus and Romulus.

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<v Speaker 2>The wolf raised twins, whose battle for divine favor is

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<v Speaker 2>remembered as the traditional founding story of Rome. Both stories

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<v Speaker 2>were that of a chaste woman. One would bring about

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<v Speaker 2>the Kingdom of Rome and the other the Roman Republic.

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<v Speaker 2>If we remember Simon de Beauvoir's words here quote, women

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<v Speaker 2>have been pretexts rather than agents. Livy states in his

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<v Speaker 2>history that his writing is not just intended to be

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<v Speaker 2>a history lesson, but also moral instruction, hoping Roman readers

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<v Speaker 2>of the day could learn from Romans of the past,

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<v Speaker 2>which probably explains Lucretia's inspirational speech. Ofvid was less concerned

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<v Speaker 2>with the morality of the average Roman. His Lucretius story

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<v Speaker 2>was actually written during his exile from Rome by the

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<v Speaker 2>Emperor Augustus. The reasons for this exile were never actually documented,

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<v Speaker 2>but do not worry, the city of Rome did revoke

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<v Speaker 2>his exile in twenty seventeen, only two thousand years later.

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<v Speaker 2>Both Avid and Livy had a vested interest in portraying

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<v Speaker 2>the corruption of power, emphasizing in their stories the inherent

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<v Speaker 2>wickedness and immorality of the son of the king, Sextus Tarquinius.

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.159
<v Speaker 2>This is how the story would be understood for many years,

0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.919
<v Speaker 2>with Tarquin as a monster and Lucretia as both a

0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:58.360
<v Speaker 2>victim and a martyr. It wasn't until Augustine, the bishop

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.960
<v Speaker 2>and theologian, who wrote on the City of God against

0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.480
<v Speaker 2>the Pagans, that Lucretia's role would be altered in the

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:12.119
<v Speaker 2>public consciousness. Regarded today as a cornerstone of Western thought.

0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Augustine's work was written between four hundred and thirteen and

0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.639
<v Speaker 2>four hundred and twenty six a d. In the context

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 2>of the ongoing conflict between Christians and Pagans. After the

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.680
<v Speaker 2>sack of Rome by the Goths in four hundred and ten,

0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Pagans were beginning to fear that Christianity and the abandonment

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 2>of Roman gods was the cause of their suffering, and

0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.080
<v Speaker 2>with City of God, Augustine, from the Roman province in

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:49.080
<v Speaker 2>North Africa, was seeking to counter those arguments and bolster

0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.959
<v Speaker 2>the faith of Christians. The title comes from the idea

0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:57.520
<v Speaker 2>that even if earthly empires fall, the City of God

0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:04.400
<v Speaker 2>will ultimately prevail. When it comes to Augustine's writing on Lucretia,

0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:09.080
<v Speaker 2>he begins quote they, as in Pagans, will certainly bring

0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:14.040
<v Speaker 2>out Lucretia with great praises for her chastity. If that

0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:19.440
<v Speaker 2>feels a little mocking, it's because it was. Augustine goes

0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.560
<v Speaker 2>on to question why Lucretia killed herself if she was

0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:28.680
<v Speaker 2>truly guilty of nothing. He argues that she actually killed

0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:33.919
<v Speaker 2>herself because even though she was attacked, she eventually consented,

0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.359
<v Speaker 2>and her consent, rather than being out of fear of

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the consequences as in the original tellings, was in Augustine's

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:49.679
<v Speaker 2>mind because she secretly desired Tarquin Eleanor Glendinning writes in

0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.080
<v Speaker 2>her analysis that quote, a person committed to the Christian

0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:57.359
<v Speaker 2>faith could suffer any bodily suffering and emerge with an

0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:01.040
<v Speaker 2>even stronger mind and conviction in the existence of God.

0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 2>By doing so, Augustine's City of God also laid the

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:11.920
<v Speaker 2>foundations for early Christian beliefs surrounding suicide. In general. Augustine

0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>believed that thou shalt not kill also referred to oneself.

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Augustine is disparaging a pagan hero using a Christian narrative,

0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 2>and the Western world will of course only continue to

0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.919
<v Speaker 2>move further from paganism and towards Christianity as time marches. On.

0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:38.200
<v Speaker 2>The other change, Augustine makes here is distancing Lucretia from

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:43.000
<v Speaker 2>the revolutionary narrative. Augustine does not care about the Tarquins

0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 2>or Brutus. He has just focused on Lucretia as an

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:53.919
<v Speaker 2>unworthy pagan martyr figure. It's important to discuss Augustine because

0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.679
<v Speaker 2>his words will have permeated the culture of every writer

0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.080
<v Speaker 2>that tells the story of Lucretia going far forward, whether

0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:05.480
<v Speaker 2>they agreed with him or not. Disconnecting her from politics

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.760
<v Speaker 2>also gave way to new narratives want about chastity, lust,

0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and temptation. There are many Renaissance paintings of Lucretia, but

0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.760
<v Speaker 2>most are domestic, not political scenes, domestic scenes with her

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:26.120
<v Speaker 2>in various states of undress, either fending off her attacker

0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 2>or pointing the knife at her own chest. There's also

0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.680
<v Speaker 2>an eroticism to these paintings that can arguably be traced

0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:43.879
<v Speaker 2>back to Augustine. All of this brings me to Shakespeare.

0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Shakespeare's main source for his narrative poem The Rape of

0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Lucrece wasn't Augustine, but actually the originals Avid and Livy.

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.800
<v Speaker 2>There are, though, a number of ways in which Shakespeare's

0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 2>poem depart arts from its source material. But one in

0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 2>particular is shockingly different. Lucretia's suicide in Shakespeare's poem does

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.719
<v Speaker 2>not lead to a revolution. In fact, there is no

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:18.240
<v Speaker 2>mention of the Roman Republic at all. Late in the poem,

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Lucretia has a lengthy speech reflecting back on her rapist's crime. Quote,

0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>thou seemest not what thou art a god? A king?

0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:34.560
<v Speaker 2>For kings, like gods, should govern everything. How wilt thy

0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:38.920
<v Speaker 2>shame be seated in thine age? When thus thy vices

0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:43.800
<v Speaker 2>bud before thy spring? If in thy hope thou darst

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:48.800
<v Speaker 2>do such outrage? What darst thou not? When once thou

0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:52.600
<v Speaker 2>art a king? Right off the bat? We are in

0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:57.000
<v Speaker 2>a very different political atmosphere than the world of Livy

0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>and Avid. Maybe it's obvious Shakespeare lived in England under

0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:06.600
<v Speaker 2>a monarchy. His Lucretia is comparing kings and gods in

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:10.080
<v Speaker 2>a positive way, going so far as to say that

0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:14.920
<v Speaker 2>they should govern everything. The message is not that absolute

0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:20.920
<v Speaker 2>power corrupts absolutely. It's that Tarquin is corrupted absolutely. One

0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:27.600
<v Speaker 2>bad apple. Shakespeare's Lucretia continues, quote, this deed will make

0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.840
<v Speaker 2>thee only loved for fear. But happy monarchs are still

0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>feared for love with foul offenders, Thou perforce must bear

0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:41.639
<v Speaker 2>when they in thee the like offenses prove, if but

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:46.560
<v Speaker 2>for fear of this, thy will remove. For princes are

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the glass, the school, the book where subjects, eyes do learn,

0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:56.720
<v Speaker 2>do read, do look. Lucretia is speaking with more political

0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.880
<v Speaker 2>language than she has in any other version of her story,

0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.440
<v Speaker 2>but it is a far cry from what the original

0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:08.240
<v Speaker 2>political purpose of her story was. Shakespeare is instead working

0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:13.520
<v Speaker 2>within the genre of mirrors for Princes, a literary genre

0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:17.200
<v Speaker 2>that was popular throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance,

0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:22.399
<v Speaker 2>which sought to, as the title implies, provide advice and

0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.720
<v Speaker 2>examples for rulers to give advice on how to be

0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:31.760
<v Speaker 2>a good prince. Shakespeare's The Rape of Lucrece ends with

0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:36.399
<v Speaker 2>Brutus declaring to avenge her death, but this is done

0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:41.919
<v Speaker 2>by banishing Tarquin from Rome, not starting the republic. The

0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>poem ends quote, when they had sworn to this advised doom,

0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.760
<v Speaker 2>they did conclude to bear dead Lucrece, thence to show

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:55.320
<v Speaker 2>her bleeding body through Rome, and so to publish Tarquin's

0:24:55.400 --> 0:24:59.960
<v Speaker 2>foul offense, which being done with speedy diligence, The Roman

0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:07.600
<v Speaker 2>plausibly did give consent to Tarquin's everlasting banishment. Lucretia's body

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:11.719
<v Speaker 2>is still a political weapon, but as a symbol she

0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:16.200
<v Speaker 2>carries much less weight when Tarquin is simply banished, as

0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:19.840
<v Speaker 2>opposed to he and his family being forever removed from

0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:24.440
<v Speaker 2>power and the entire system of government of Rome changing forever.

0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:31.720
<v Speaker 2>Shakespeare is much more focused on the actions of the individual,

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.600
<v Speaker 2>and make no mistake, he thinks Tarquinius is corrupt. Though

0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:40.000
<v Speaker 2>he is writing in a post Augustine world. It is

0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>clear that what Lucretia feels towards her attacker in Shakespeare's

0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:50.040
<v Speaker 2>poem is fear she is not consenting. Shakespeare uses a

0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:54.800
<v Speaker 2>metaphor of Tarquin as a predator, the wolf hath seized

0:25:54.840 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>his prey, the poor lamb cries. Compared to Augustine, Shakespeare

0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.919
<v Speaker 2>also displays a far greater understanding of the reality of

0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:11.280
<v Speaker 2>the physiological repercussions of rape. While Lucretia's family believes quote

0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:16.239
<v Speaker 2>her bodies stain, her mind untainted clears, he writes that

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:21.320
<v Speaker 2>quote with a joyless smile. She turns away the face

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:27.119
<v Speaker 2>that map, which deep impression bears of hard misfortune carved

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:31.959
<v Speaker 2>in it with tears. Her suicide is not the result

0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:36.479
<v Speaker 2>of her secretly being unchased. In Shakespeare's version, it is,

0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 2>as it was in the beginning, a preservation of her chastity.

0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:45.760
<v Speaker 2>We know this because Shakespeare has her tell us quote

0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 2>for me, I am the mistress of my fate, she

0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:53.120
<v Speaker 2>states as she contemplates what to do in the aftermath

0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:56.600
<v Speaker 2>of her assault. She's given more dialogue, more of an

0:26:56.640 --> 0:27:00.000
<v Speaker 2>inner life here than in any other telling, aligning her

0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:06.240
<v Speaker 2>more with Shakespeare's other tragic heroines. Shakespeare's telling of Lucretia

0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:09.640
<v Speaker 2>may appear to be removed from key points of its

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:15.840
<v Speaker 2>original context, but again, it fits quite nicely in Elizabethan England.

0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:19.880
<v Speaker 2>It's not a stretch to draw parallels between the virgin

0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:25.320
<v Speaker 2>queen who proudly sacrificed marriage for her country, and Lucretia,

0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:29.600
<v Speaker 2>who was so chaste that she died for hers. The

0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:33.520
<v Speaker 2>poem was written around the same time Shakespeare would make

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:38.240
<v Speaker 2>another reference to the virgin Queen in A Midsummer Night's Dream,

0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:43.680
<v Speaker 2>when Oberon speaks of quote a fair vestal throned by

0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the west. Shakespeare's flattery also appears in Richard the Third,

0:27:50.080 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 2>in which the mad villainous hunchbacked king is overthrown not

0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.120
<v Speaker 2>by a revolution but by combat with the next king,

0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:08.520
<v Speaker 2>who have to be Elizabeth's great grandfather. But for a

0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:14.719
<v Speaker 2>prospective on Lucretia's story that returns to the original revolutionary sentiments,

0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>let's go where else to France or more specifically, Geneva.

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:26.200
<v Speaker 2>As Jean Jacques Rousseau bounced between European countries throughout his life,

0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:31.560
<v Speaker 2>His unfinished tragic play LaMonte de Lucrece was composed around

0:28:31.760 --> 0:28:36.560
<v Speaker 2>seventeen fifty four seventeen fifty six, still early years in

0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Rousseau's career. Seventeen fifty four was the same year he

0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:45.480
<v Speaker 2>wrote his foundational Discourse on the Origin and Basis of

0:28:45.560 --> 0:28:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Inequality among Men, in which he argued that moral inequality

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:55.280
<v Speaker 2>is not innate to humans, rather a product of quote, wealth,

0:28:55.440 --> 0:29:01.880
<v Speaker 2>nobility or rank, power, and personal merit. Given Russeau's lofty

0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Enlightenment ideals, his play does, as you might imagine, return

0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's story to its Republican roots, the roots that we're

0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:16.479
<v Speaker 2>lacking in Shakespeare's telling. But like in Shakespeare's a number

0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:22.000
<v Speaker 2>of details have been changed for storytelling purposes. Lucretia begins

0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:27.479
<v Speaker 2>Russeau's story engaged to sexist Tarquinius, but her father breaks

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.960
<v Speaker 2>it off despite the wishes of the king, and Lucretia

0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>instead marries the less powerful Calatin for different political reasons.

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:39.680
<v Speaker 2>There may have once been something between the two, but

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Lucretia tells her handmaiden that she prefers quote the constant

0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 2>and peaceful love of Coltan to the fiery passions of Sextus.

0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:54.240
<v Speaker 2>Referring to Tarquin still, she prays, quote, O God who

0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:59.160
<v Speaker 2>sees my heart, clarify my judgment. Guarantee I do not

0:29:59.360 --> 0:30:02.840
<v Speaker 2>cease to be virtuous. You know that although I want

0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:06.080
<v Speaker 2>to be, I will always be if you want it

0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:10.240
<v Speaker 2>as well. So in this version there is a temptation

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:16.280
<v Speaker 2>to return to Tarquin, but Lucretia fights against it. Because

0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:19.880
<v Speaker 2>this is theater, we're given a story that's a more

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:24.520
<v Speaker 2>dramatic and be an introduction to a number of additional

0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:28.680
<v Speaker 2>moving parts that weren't present in any other version. In

0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:32.640
<v Speaker 2>Rousseau's version, Tarquin has promised that he'll arrange a marriage

0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:37.200
<v Speaker 2>between two lovers, his servant and Lucretia's handmaiden, if the

0:30:37.240 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 2>two of them can arrange a secret meeting between him

0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and his ex fiancee, Lucretia. Lucretia's maid is wary, believing

0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.560
<v Speaker 2>her lady is quote not capable of feeling anything but

0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:54.200
<v Speaker 2>for her spouse and her duty. But Tarquin's servant argues

0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:58.600
<v Speaker 2>that Lucretia only puts up appearances of virtue, and no

0:30:58.680 --> 0:31:03.920
<v Speaker 2>one would ultimately but virtue above personal passions. While all

0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 2>of that is going on, Brutus is already plotting his

0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:12.360
<v Speaker 2>revolution to overthrow the Tarquins. He tries to persuade Colton

0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.640
<v Speaker 2>to join his cause by telling him about how Tarquin

0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 2>is in love with his wife, but Coltan simply tells

0:31:19.160 --> 0:31:23.520
<v Speaker 2>him quote, I know the virtues of Lucretia's heart. On

0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:29.200
<v Speaker 2>top of that, Colton fears war and the possibility of anarchy, slavery,

0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:34.240
<v Speaker 2>and civil strife after the monarchs are driven out. Lucretius,

0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:38.760
<v Speaker 2>his father in law, accuses him of being childish, taking

0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:42.040
<v Speaker 2>the easy way out by continuing to live in comfort

0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:46.239
<v Speaker 2>under tyrants rather than fighting for the greater good of

0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:51.280
<v Speaker 2>liberty and equality. The rest of Rousseau's play is only

0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 2>available to us in fragments. Tarquin laments that Lucretia's quote

0:31:56.960 --> 0:32:00.960
<v Speaker 2>virtue deserving of adoration by the gods has been soiled

0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:05.600
<v Speaker 2>by him quote the violist of mortals, before in a twist,

0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>he kills himself. It's unclear in this version whether rape

0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:19.160
<v Speaker 2>or consensual sex happened, but Lucretia ultimately kills herself as well.

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 2>In Rousseau's autobiographical work Confessions, he describes his reasoning for

0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:31.760
<v Speaker 2>writing about Lucretia quote, I planned a prose tragedy on

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:35.840
<v Speaker 2>no less a subject than Lucrece, with which I had

0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:40.160
<v Speaker 2>some hope of overcoming derision, even though I ventured to

0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:43.720
<v Speaker 2>bring that unfortunate woman back to the stage when she

0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:47.920
<v Speaker 2>had become an impossible subject for the French theater. He

0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:52.560
<v Speaker 2>was referring to two failed productions by French playwrights, first

0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Jean Francois Rignard and Charles de Francais, who had produced

0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:02.800
<v Speaker 2>comedies of the story, notes, which I have to imagine

0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:08.160
<v Speaker 2>is probably why they didn't work. Rousseau instead believed Lucretia

0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:13.400
<v Speaker 2>could be a quote useful heroine with whom Parisian audiences

0:33:13.480 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 2>could identify. Melissa M. Mathis, in her book The Rape

0:33:19.080 --> 0:33:23.160
<v Speaker 2>of Lucretia and the Founding of Republics, writes that quote.

0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.400
<v Speaker 2>For Rousseau, the story of the rape of Lucretia is

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 2>in part an apt encapsulation of deterioration and renewal, an

0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:37.000
<v Speaker 2>allegory for the loss and potential rebirth of the Republic.

0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:41.880
<v Speaker 2>And for Rousseau, women are the perfect emblem of both

0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:47.120
<v Speaker 2>corruption and the possibility of renewal. Who else in eighteenth

0:33:47.160 --> 0:33:52.600
<v Speaker 2>century French society has fallen further than women, specifically the

0:33:52.640 --> 0:33:56.600
<v Speaker 2>bourgeois women of the salons. Yet upon whom else can

0:33:56.640 --> 0:34:01.160
<v Speaker 2>the possibility for renewal be placed? Even the wretched can

0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:05.600
<v Speaker 2>be redeemed, made into the virtuous nursemaids of the republic.

0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Surely there is still reason to believe in the possibility

0:34:10.000 --> 0:34:11.760
<v Speaker 2>of a Republican rebirth.

0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:13.840
<v Speaker 1>That is why.

0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Rousseau's Lucretia struggles with temptation, not because she is ultimately sinful,

0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 2>but because she is virtuous but human. Rousseau isn't as

0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:29.640
<v Speaker 2>obsessed with innocence as other Enlightenment figures. He believes that

0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:34.600
<v Speaker 2>redemption and rebirth can come from places of corruption. This

0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Lucretia's world is one of scheming fathers and maids and servants,

0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:43.720
<v Speaker 2>all using her as a pawn in their larger games.

0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Even Calatinus, her husband, is corrupt here, fitting the model

0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 2>of the nouveau bourgeois that Rousseau detested. He, like the bourgeois,

0:34:56.560 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 2>is absorbed in his own comfort, reluctant to give up

0:35:00.600 --> 0:35:05.560
<v Speaker 2>his privileges even for the greater good. In Rousseau's version,

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:09.520
<v Speaker 2>we don't see Lucretia's body weaponized as literally as in

0:35:09.560 --> 0:35:13.319
<v Speaker 2>the others, but it's still used as a tool, only

0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:18.600
<v Speaker 2>this time for Tarquin's redemption. Tarquin is so horrified by

0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:22.839
<v Speaker 2>what he has done, whether it was tempting Lucretia or

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.960
<v Speaker 2>assaulting her, that he is driven to kill himself, as

0:35:27.239 --> 0:35:32.360
<v Speaker 2>she usually exclusively is. In the wake of his transgression,

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:37.240
<v Speaker 2>he realizes that he is the vilest of mortals, reaching

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:42.800
<v Speaker 2>a quite literal moment of enlightenment, his violation of Lucretia

0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:48.280
<v Speaker 2>was his path to redemption. Lucretia, for her part, kills

0:35:48.320 --> 0:35:51.839
<v Speaker 2>herself in one part to preserve her virtue, but also

0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:56.919
<v Speaker 2>because of Quote having shared in the crime. Because these

0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.640
<v Speaker 2>parts of the play are only available to us as fragments,

0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:04.600
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to do a complete analysis, but it does

0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:10.719
<v Speaker 2>present an interesting contrast with Augustine. Augustine believed Lucretia killed

0:36:10.719 --> 0:36:15.160
<v Speaker 2>herself because she was guilty of desiring Tarquin, and therefore

0:36:15.239 --> 0:36:20.680
<v Speaker 2>she was unworthy of pagan admiration. Rousseau believes that she

0:36:20.880 --> 0:36:25.200
<v Speaker 2>potentially killed herself for the same reasons, but he presents

0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>it as heroic. There's not a sense that killing herself

0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:32.880
<v Speaker 2>is purifying her body and her country, as there was

0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:37.120
<v Speaker 2>in the original version, but rather the larger idea that

0:36:37.200 --> 0:36:41.399
<v Speaker 2>the republic can still be born from an imperfect mother.

0:36:42.640 --> 0:36:46.960
<v Speaker 2>But no matter which narrative we look at from any date, place,

0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:51.520
<v Speaker 2>or time, Lucretia is always the pretext rather than the agent.

0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:56.279
<v Speaker 2>Her value is mostly that of symbol. In some of

0:36:56.320 --> 0:37:00.480
<v Speaker 2>these tellings, she's given a greater inner life, a richer carecterzation,

0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:04.120
<v Speaker 2>but it's always to serve the ultimate goal of saying

0:37:04.200 --> 0:37:07.840
<v Speaker 2>something about the place and time in which her story

0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 2>is being retold. It's difficult to answer the question I

0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:17.240
<v Speaker 2>posed at the beginning of this episode, who is Lucretia really?

0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:21.839
<v Speaker 2>Because she's something different to every writer that she's been

0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:26.520
<v Speaker 2>the subject of. Maybe there isn't even a real Lucretia

0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:30.000
<v Speaker 2>at all. But that's also a question that's impossible to

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:35.759
<v Speaker 2>answer ultimately. For better or for worse, Lucretia exists, but

0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:44.120
<v Speaker 2>she exists as legend. That's the story of Lucretia and

0:37:44.239 --> 0:37:47.759
<v Speaker 2>the many, many ways she's been interpreted over the course

0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:51.760
<v Speaker 2>of history. But keep listening after a brief sponsor break

0:37:51.920 --> 0:38:00.160
<v Speaker 2>for a very important artistic interpretation of Lucretia by a woman.

0:38:06.200 --> 0:38:10.759
<v Speaker 2>Artemisia Gentileschi was a Baroque painter, the first woman to

0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.960
<v Speaker 2>become a member of the Academia in Florence, perhaps best

0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:19.399
<v Speaker 2>known for her paintings of Judith, the Jewish heroine. Not

0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:23.120
<v Speaker 2>only did several of her paintings focus on Judith, but

0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Lucretia was also a subject that Artemisia returned to multiple times.

0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Her sixteen twenty five portrait of Lucretia, fittingly entitled Lucretia,

0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:40.319
<v Speaker 2>shows a well known scene with new nuance. Lucretia is

0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:44.279
<v Speaker 2>moments from suicide, her left hand clutching the knife and

0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:48.000
<v Speaker 2>her right hand clutching her breast. She's disheveled in the

0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.880
<v Speaker 2>aftermath of her assault, but the painting doesn't feel erotic

0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:55.000
<v Speaker 2>as it sometimes does in the hands of other masters.

0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 2>She is not fair haired or flawless. Her brow is

0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.600
<v Speaker 2>tightly wrinkled and The distress is evident on her face,

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:08.600
<v Speaker 2>and she looks up in contemplation. We see the defined

0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:12.040
<v Speaker 2>muscles of her legs and the strength in her hands.

0:39:12.640 --> 0:39:17.480
<v Speaker 2>There is clear pain, but there's also clear strength. When

0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Artemisia was seventeen, she herself was raped by another Italian painter,

0:39:23.800 --> 0:39:27.880
<v Speaker 2>Agostino Tassi, and when the case went to trial on

0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 2>the grounds of Tossi dishonoring her family, Artemisia was subjected

0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:37.080
<v Speaker 2>to torture during her testimony to prove she was telling

0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:41.600
<v Speaker 2>the truth. Her experiences have affected the way art historians

0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:45.960
<v Speaker 2>view her paintings, and while many have believed she sought

0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:50.319
<v Speaker 2>to portray vengeance, a newer school of thought argues that

0:39:50.360 --> 0:39:55.319
<v Speaker 2>what Artemisia was actually interested in was showing strength in

0:39:55.400 --> 0:40:00.200
<v Speaker 2>her female heroines. There are even some art historians who

0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:07.000
<v Speaker 2>see similarities between Artemisia's self portraits, one entitled quite Poignantly

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Self Portrait as a Female Martyr, and her sixteen twenty

0:40:12.400 --> 0:40:16.759
<v Speaker 2>five portrait of Lucretia. I encourage you to look at

0:40:16.760 --> 0:40:22.200
<v Speaker 2>these works for yourself, along with Artemisia's other masterful compositions.

0:40:22.600 --> 0:40:26.120
<v Speaker 2>She is wonderful both as an artist and just a

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:31.920
<v Speaker 2>name that we get to say Artemisia Gentileschi, who ultimately

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:36.920
<v Speaker 2>whether or not Artemisia Genta Leschi's past influenced her future

0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:42.880
<v Speaker 2>decision to paint Lucretia, her perspective introduced a new depth

0:40:43.400 --> 0:40:45.480
<v Speaker 2>that was lacking amongst her peers.

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<v Speaker 1>Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and

0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:04.200
<v Speaker 1>miniled from Aaron Manke. Noble Blood is created and hosted

0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:08.960
<v Speaker 1>by me Dana Shwarts, with additional writing and researching by

0:41:09.080 --> 0:41:14.600
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman.

0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:18.880
<v Speaker 1>The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:24.759
<v Speaker 1>rima Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:29.480
<v Speaker 1>producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:35.320
<v Speaker 1>podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

0:41:35.520 --> 0:41:37.520
<v Speaker 1>wherever you listen to your favorite shows.