WEBVTT - Deus Ex Machina 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:08.320 Sleepwalkers is a production of my heart radio and unusual productions. 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.200 Every day I go to work, I use my car. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:15.440 Every tag I talked to somebody is more than a 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:17.360 few more feet away. I use my phone, so I'm 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:22.720 using certain technologies that extend me beyond my physical normal range. Yes, 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:28.639 so maybe I'm a cyborg. That Sebastian Throne speaking. He 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.520 found a Google X and he's appeared on Sleepwalkers a 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.760 few times. As far as we know, he's not a cyborg. 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.160 If summer took all technology away from me, like refrigeration 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.840 and everything, would I not survive? I have no clue. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.520 I good, I'm in catching deer here my neighborhood. But yes, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.120 I would be pretty miserable. You said something which I 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:51.360 found quite interesting. You said, I would love to directly 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.040 interface my brain to all the computers in the world, 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.120 so I could be truly superhuman. I would know everything, 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.960 every name, every phone number. If there was a button 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.600 you could press to do that right now, would you 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.039 have any hesitation pressing it? I would press it in 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:10.000 a microsecond. Why I make sure the product of data. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.800 I went to college, I read probably four or five 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.560 books in the time, and I build a scientific career 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.440 on the shoulders of others. That data empowered me to 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.440 who I am. If you took that data away from 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:22.200 me and said, Sebastian, I'm going to put you into 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.120 the China in the seventies, you're gonna work in the field, 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.480 I would be less as Sebastian than I am today, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.720 because I would probably know how to plow a field. 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.160 But that was pretty much it. To Sebastian's regret, there's 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.360 been a hard limit on how much data he can 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:41.480 actually consume his hardware. His physical body has held him back. Unfortunately, 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.400 the human I owe the input out with the ears 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.959 and eyes and smell and so on, voice are still 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:50.880 very inefficient. If I could accelerate the reading of all 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:52.880 the books into my brain, oh my god, that would 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.480 be so awesome. We talked in the last episode about 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.960 brain computer interfaces in the medical world, helping disabled pay 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.320 ss like Jan Sherman move prosthetic limbs with their minds. Today, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:09.120 we look at trans humanism becoming cyborks. What happens when 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.120 we merge with computers not just to restore function, but 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.560 to upgrade and enhance ourselves. And as we head into 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:20.000 this new future, who might get left behind. I musoloshin 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:36.880 this is Sleepwalkers. So Carrot Sebastian was talking about cyborgs 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.000 and whether we're already cy walks because we're so reliant 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.680 on our technology, our cars, and especially our phones, which 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.600 become kind of like a second brain, albeit a very 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:48.799 distracting one. Yeah. I think what he was saying that 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.720 if technology is required to keep us alive, that merger 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.400 between humans and machines has already happened. We're already that's right. 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.760 But let's be real, that's not really what people think 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.520 about when they hear the word cyborgs. They think about 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.120 more extreme cases like Sebastian having his brain directly connected 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.519 to all the information in the world ever, you know, 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.560 and there are already some people working on that. There's 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.519 this guy named Elon Musk that you might have heard of, 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.040 and he actually one of his new companies is called Neuralink, 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.639 and he's trying to do is create a mesh that 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.240 can be inserted in the brain that connects the brain 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.880 to a computer. And I think part of his goal 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:31.200 is to make humans competitive enough to take on machines 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.520 if and when they out smart us. Well, this idea 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.880 of humans and machines merging to create something superior is 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.080 a great interest throughout Silicon Valley, and one person who 0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:44.880 kind of wrote the book on this transhumanism is you 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.280 have al No Harari. He is a historian and a 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.080 futurist and the author of Homodaeus, a book that explores 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.840 the future of our humanity, and his writing is a 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.280 major source of inspiration, not just in Silicon Valley but 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:58.840 for this podcast. So I was rather excited when he 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.920 agreed to have a conversation with us. Every generation in 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.320 history thinks that they are on the verge of the apocalypse, 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.240 and usually they are wrong. But as a story and 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.200 I have the sense that we are on the verge 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:15.480 of the most important revolution since the very beginning of life. 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.400 You've all believes that right now we're actually looking at 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.120 the end of history as we know it, the dawning 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.240 of a new era. Something has changed. I wanted to 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:33.800 know what we're really deciphering, the underlying rules of the 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.640 game of life and now acquiring the ability to change 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.839 these rules. I mean, previously, the expectations of the apocalypse 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:47.159 were directed outwards towards the gods, towards some external entity 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:52.320 that will come and intervene and change everything. Now we 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.080 don't expect an external entity to do it. We expect 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.920 ourselves to do it. And when you look really calm 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.680 only and objectively at the advances that science has been making, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.920 it doesn't sound so far fetched as you've all would 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.120 have it. We no longer look to the heavens or answers, 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.520 because we ourselves are becoming gods, and as technology improves, 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.679 we're getting better and better at finding answers by looking inwards. Literally. 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.640 One of the biggest misunderstandings about the whole AI revolution 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.159 is that many people see it as a revolution coming 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:33.680 out of computer science, but actually it comes equally from 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.800 the life sciences, from biology, from brain science. It's not 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:42.840 enough that computers are becoming smarter. It's also essential that 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:49.040 we view humans as algorithms. If our feelings are not 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.280 the product of some kind of extremely complicated algorithm in 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.920 the brain, then no matter how smart computers will become, 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.000 many things won't happen. If something like self driving cars 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.039 to navigate a street full of pedestrians, the car must 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.720 be able to understand human behavior and human feelings. And 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.960 if you think that human feelings are the result of 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:19.880 some spiritual soul or something which can never be deciphered. 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:24.040 Then you can't have self driving cars. In order to 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.120 create so many of the technologies we talk about on Sleepwalkers, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.320 from self driving cars to targeted ads to parole algorithms, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.320 we have to assume that human behavior can be modeled, 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.760 that our habits, routines, even our personalities could be expressed 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.600 as mathematical formulas. But even if you don't take things 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.800 that far. Uv OL's key point about the transformative potential 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.520 of combining computer science and biology is shared by people 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.920 in the business of building the future. You may remember 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.000 Arthur Provoca from earlier in the season Arthur round the 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.320 Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency Dark. But we're living in 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:06.680 a time in which the biological sciences are converging with 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.840 information technology. The DARPER We are always looking for these 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.720 areas where we see these seeds of technological surprise, and 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:20.080 today I think this intersection of biology with technology is 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.720 one of the most fertile seed beds for surprise. And 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.920 when these advances are coming from the ability to autobiology 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.720 with computer science, it may be hard for us to 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:34.400 predict what surprises might bloom. You've always argued that advances 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.480 in AI and gene editing will lead to new forms 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.280 of life. We are now gaining the ability to break 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.040 or bend or change the rules of life. We are 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.920 about to create the first inorganic life forms after four 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:52.200 billion years of evolution. We can't really imagine how the 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:56.040 new entities would look like because even the wildest dreams 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:02.120 are still subject to natural selection and organic biochemistry. So 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:04.960 according to you of our Cara, it's rather difficult to 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.640 say what might come next because it's somehow out of 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.640 our frame of reference. It's almost like saying what aliens 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:12.880 look like. And I know if you ever watched movies, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.800 but in movies, aliens and cyborgs tend to look remarkably consistent. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.080 I actually watched Men in Black last week, and it 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.560 is alien central casting. You know, a lot of representations 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.920 of cyborgs tend to have this element of cliche. You know, 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.680 there's a pitiable robot, the robot that's hell by love. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.679 You can think of Wally c three p O, the 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:34.959 tin Man from the Wizard of Us. The Wizard was 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.320 my favorite movie. It's kind of a fantasy film. We've 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.160 actually talked about real life people who may meet the 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:43.839 qualification of cyborg. Already on this show, we spoke about 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.000 Jan Sherman in the last episode using a robotic arm 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.280 with her mind, but the research didn't actually end there. 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.040 In a subsequent experiment, Jan flew a simulated plane with 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.360 our brain waves. Remember this research was being funded by 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.199 Darper and it raised big questions for Arthur Prabba Car 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:02.760 who was running the agency at the time, about the 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:08.800 ethics of transhumanism. When Jan went from moving a prosthetic 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:12.880 limb to controlling a flight simulator, that was the moment 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.319 that it became visible that these technologies that allow you 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.880 to restore function by harnessing motor control signals also mean 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.720 that now we have a way for a human brain 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.600 to engage with the world in a completely different modality. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.040 It was a very eye opening moment. I think for 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:34.240 all of us, what did you feel in that moment? 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:40.240 It's creepy, it's powerful. It makes you realize that as 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.240 hard as the technology is, it might be the easiest 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:48.120 part of figuring out how we harness these capabilities for 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:53.960 good in the future. As we've said, this technology remains 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.040 firmly in research labs at least for now. Andy Schwartz 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.959 is the neurobiologist at the Universe. You have Pittsburgh who 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.920 led the project with Jan and he's very clear that 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.000 his mission was to restore function, not enhance it. The 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.199 idea was, can we help paralyze people coming back from 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:15.240 war zones regain function? So I think that was very 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.600 good motivation for the kind of research we are doing. 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.040 And despite the huge potential of Andy's research, he's quick 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.720 to point out that the brain computer interface he built 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.760 is much less efficient than our existing connection to the world. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.440 At present, our bodies are the best we've got right now. 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.680 If you wanted to control the computer with brain activity, 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.000 it would be ten times slower. That would be if 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.719 you were typing with your own fingers. Things move so 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.480 fast that we've gotten accustomed to the idea that if 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.920 you see it once, it's just going to become pervasive. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:49.839 That's actually not true of a medically invasive procedure that 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:54.520 involves putting implants on the surface of the brain. We're 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.839 going to need all of that time to figure out 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.000 what we were we want to go with these technologies. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.480 So it's a perfect moment to ask where do we 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.120 want to go? For many in Silicon Valley, the principle 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.280 of a more direct interface between humans and computers is enticing. 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.360 But here's Sebastian again. At this point, I don't think 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.800 customers would love having surgery to get an implant in 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.680 their brain just to be lived smarter. But there are 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.439 other ways to approach the problem. You may remember Google Glass. 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.599 Sebastian lad that project when he ran Google X, and 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.840 in fact, when I first met him in twenty twelve, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.200 he was wearing a pair we bet Google glass because 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.719 I wanted a camera right next to your eye, and 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:38.520 I wanted to speak of right next to your ear, 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.880 so the computer could perceive the same sensation, the same 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.280 stuff you see every day. I think these technologies become 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.880 closer and closer to us. When I first met Sebastian, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.520 he was wearing these weird Google glasses carra It kind 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.160 of looked like a cyborg, and he told me that 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.920 these glasses might solve the problem of people constantly having 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.679 to look down at their ownes because the information could 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.679 be at eye level. But that really hasn't solved the 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.480 problem of tech neck. Technic women and men are now 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.719 getting this like very you know, unsavory under neck, fatally 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.200 from looking down at their phones. Yeah, and then there's 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.200 turtle posture, which is people hunting forward because they're sitting 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.080 at their computers so much so we don't know if 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.960 these are going to have an impact on us evolutionarily speaking, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.559 but I imagine they might. Or thumbs if you think 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.920 about it, well, our bodies are already being changed by 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.360 our interaction with our phones. Absolutely. There's actually really quickly, 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.200 there's this fake video that was going around called Lookout, 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.840 where this guy invented a product where your phone basically 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.480 had the same camera it does, except it would face out, 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.800 so you never had to look away from your phone. 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:47.040 You could just look at your life through your phone, 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.439 which is essentially what everybody is already doing well, And 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.719 that was kind of the insight behind Good Last was 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.719 what if you could overlay kind of augmented reality over 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.920 what you saw And there's something very promising cool about it, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.839 but it wasn't mostly viable because you had to wear 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.240 something on your face that made it like a cyborg. 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.680 But for consumers and the benefits of a computer at 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.360 that proximity just weren't enough to make up for the 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.679 inconvenience of wearing something on their face. There is one 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.439 group of people who are willing to put up with 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.360 inconvenient technology. You know, people like Jan who had her 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.320 skull opens that she could move an arm again. Right 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.079 as Andy said, this wasn't about letting her fly planes 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.280 with her mind. It was about restoring function. When we 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.240 come back after the break, we look at a much 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.440 less invasive technology that hopes to be as miraculous as 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:42.160 Jan Sherman's robotic arm. Okay, let me do you want 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:44.800 to test to test it with the tambourine or whatever. Okay, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:01.080 that's Noise Toka. He's an award winning Italian blues guitarist 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.280 who lives in New York. When Noi came to play 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.480 for Julian and I in the studio earlier this year, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.840 he asked that I need him at the bus stop. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.199 I went to Berkeley College of Music in Boston to 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.640 study jazz guitar performance and Noise the real deal. Well 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.280 he was at Berkeley. He was given the Jimmy Hendricks 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.880 Award for being the school's leading guitarist, as well as 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.480 the Billboard magazine and owed scholarship. And now he plays 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.000 a consistent roster of shows around New York. But he's 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.360 working to reach a digital fan base as well. Every 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.800 day Noi posts a video to help build his audience. 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.960 This is how I found him. What you wouldn't know 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.320 just listening to this podcast is that no Way also 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.440 happens to be blind. I was born three months early, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.080 so they put me in the colbator, but there was 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.400 too much oxygen in his infancy. Noi suffered from retinopathy 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.080 of prematurity known as r o P. He needed surgery 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.360 to reattach his retinas and now he has very limited vision, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:00.400 totally blind, like blind. Technically, I guess it's called light 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.480 and shades or something. I mean, I can see colors, 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.440 I can read really large print only out of one eye, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.320 but my vision field is small, so I still use 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.560 the k and I still read brail. This is why 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:11.920 no I asked me to pick him up at the 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.080 bus stop. Getting to and from new destinations is a 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.920 huge pain in the ass. But here's the thing. There 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.000 are some companies that are trying to fill the gap 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.800 and make smart glasses for people with visual impairments. Their 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.840 hope is that with the right technology, blindness could become 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:30.240 a thing of the past. When we were researching for 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.840 this podcast, Julian came across a new technology company. Yeah, 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:35.840 after a few months, I had a pretty AI focused 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.080 search history, right, so my Instagram ad started to reflect that, 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.800 which is convenient, you know, AI helping us make a 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.360 podcast about AI. Yeah, super consider it, right, So I 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.280 got an ad for east Site presented itself and east 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.560 Side build themselves as creators of the world's most advanced 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.480 site enhancing glasses for the visually impaired and medical tech 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.560 can be pretty expensive, but the sites recently lowered their 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.360 prices from hundred dollars for appair of these glasses down 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.680 to fifty what do they call that? A price slash? 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.040 All Hans glasses must go. So it's still pretty steep, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.560 but east Side as payment plans and health insurance can 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.520 help people out as well. Yeah, but even so, I 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.280 mean I'd rather spend money on guitars, you know, like 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.400 that's what I do in my life. Like, why would 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.880 I spend money on something that is still so experimental? 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.479 Still No, I was curious to test out east Sides technology, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.520 so I reached out, explained noise condition and we got 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.680 an appointment. Yeah, don't do anything crazy when you put 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:41.160 them on to start jumping around like a crazy person. Yes, 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.760 if it doesn't work, just make it up. I'm I'm doing. 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.840 The east Side glasses basically look like Cyclops from X Men, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.200 except without the blinding laser beam that shoots out from them. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.680 The glasses capture high quality video with a camera above 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.400 your nose, and then project the video to a high 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.560 definition screen in front of each eye. The footage is 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.480 enhanced by software designed especially for people with vision impairment. 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.720 You can also zoom, change focus, and do things like 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.040 boost contrast or go to gray scale. And east Side 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.240 rep named Nigel helped No. I get fitted with a pair, 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:18.200 but it can be a little hard to get used to. 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.000 I mean, I am trying to see. Isn't it like 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.440 right here where I should be looking like? Yes, it's 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.480 it's it should be right in front of your people. Um, yeah, 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.880 it's a little it's a little high. Let me see 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.840 if I can just adjust that. Yeah, there you go. 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.800 That's better? Is better? Yeah? That seems like I get 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:38.879 more details out of things, but I don't really know 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.760 what I'm looking at. Nigel also asked, no way to 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.040 identify me. Let's let's see if you can recognize characters. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.320 I see, I see it. Do you know what I 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:50.880 look like? No, I like, do you have a sense 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:52.760 of what I look like? I mean from what I 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:54.119 saw when I was close to you, like have like 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.520 light hair, like the light brown or something like that. 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.240 That's right, And uh yeah, I mean it's cool. I 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.399 just don't know, you know, we have to see how 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.960 useful it would actually be, Like, I mean, I don't 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:06.439 think I would use it to recognize people like there, 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.680 because I would have no way of I don't know 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:13.160 what anybody his face looks like anyway, you know, because 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.880 he has been blind for his entire life. Nobody doesn't 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:18.560 have a point of reference for the details in people's faces. 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.520 Imagine that you have no idea what any of the 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.320 people in your life really look like. You learn to 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.200 identify them in other ways, like their voices. So no 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:31.879 is ambivalent about the prospect of seeing people clearly, but 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.359 he would like it to be easier to get around. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.840 Recognizing people's faces would not be one of my priorities, 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.840 but reading where the bus stop is or when it's 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.000 coming will be a priority. I mean, it's cool, it's interesting. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.920 I would just have to see how it actually practically 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.080 will be because I mean here's the thing, Like, when 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.080 you're outside, it's not that you have time to stop 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.080 and figure stuff out, especially when you're walking on the 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.520 sidewalks of New York. Like, I'd rather just use blind Square. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.120 Nobody first told me about blind Square when I picked 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.960 him up from the bus. He just the most popular 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.800 iOS navigation app for blind people. It describes the environment 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.639 you're in, the intersection you're crossing, and announces points of interest, 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.080 all using GPS noise. Point in mentioning blind Squared to 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.240 Nigel is that it is a tool that he can 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.280 work with within his set of limitations. Now, he spent 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.400 his whole life navigating the world one way, his way, 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.399 and east Site would actually change that, maybe more than 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.959 he would want. I've never really seen a subway map anyway, 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.840 so I would have to get a hang of how 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.280 it works first, and then because your brain needs to 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.920 recognize it and then know what it's looking, that's hard 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.480 for human beings to comprehend. I think, yeah, it's like 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:45.040 imagining a new color, right. Yeah, So Julian east site worked, 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.080 but it wasn't perfect for no Way, And I think 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.280 it's important to know that east is actually really a 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.919 cool technology, whether or not, it worked for him. Nigel 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.320 mentioned that many elderly people who suffer from macular degeneration 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.360 losing their sight due to old age, have been able 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.520 to see their grandchildren for the first time, which is 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.280 really cool. I mean it does restore site for a 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.080 lot of people who have seen before. Noways said, the 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.359 sacrifices he makes to get around to his gigs as 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.600 a blind person aren't so bad, but there is one 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.639 part of his career that's less easy to navigate. Like 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.959 many musicians, no Way uses his social media channels as 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.760 his primary way of connecting to his current fans and 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.760 hopefully reaching future ones. The problem is it's pretty hard 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.600 to reach your fans on Instagram if you're blind. Instagram 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.480 needs to listen to me right now. Uh No, Basically 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:35.200 the issue is this editing videos and putting the part 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.119 that you want is not accessible on Instagram. You know, 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.520 thankfully the Apple app is accessible. So I edited on 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.119 the iPhone app because there is like sliders and he 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.719 tells you like current positions zero seconds of like two 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.040 minutes and thirty seconds, and so basically you slide with 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:50.720 your finger up and down. If it wasn't for that, 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:52.520 I wouldn't be able to post on Instagram. I would 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.600 only be able to post the first minute, which is 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:56.359 not what I always want to post. On the songs, 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.640 sometimes I post some other part, you know. But Instagram 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.359 has implemented the app because you know, black people aren't 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:07.119 supposed to be on Instagram. I've never thought about this. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.680 Digital technology is almost exclusively visual. I don't think about 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.080 how easy it is for me to use an iPhone 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.440 every day. I just use it. And when you have 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.440 these technologies like iPhones being designed by people in Silicon 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.280 Valley who fit pretty healthily within the norm, it's not 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.240 really doing no way any favors. And when we focus 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.160 on the next big thing in tech, we can leap 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.479 frog past uses for these existing technologies. So we say, okay, well, 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:33.560 when you're starting next big unicorn, we want to do 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.160 these miraculous, gigantic ideas. But you don't think about subway maps. 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:39.720 You don't think about things like blind Square unless you 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.520 actually need that app. And I think it's we're not 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:47.359 anti technology or anti unicorn. Those things are important, you know. No, 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.280 I actually said something really funny, which is that like 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:51.280 he would love a self driving car. Of course he 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:56.359 would so we all benefit from these moonshot innovations, but 0:21:56.440 --> 0:22:00.880 it's really important I think that everyone thinks about who 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.800 is forgotten. When we innovate too quickly, we don't all 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:13.920 benefit in the same ways. We began this episode debating 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.520 what defines a cyborg and asking how close we are 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.840 to being transhuman. These are important philosophical questions, and they 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.719 may even become practical questions in our lifetime. But as 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.080 we wrestle with them, it's important to remember that a 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.440 huge number of people still don't have access to technologies 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.919 that most of us take for granted to expand our 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.760 horizons and what we can do. There are billions of 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.080 people in the world who don't have smartphones, and millions 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.840