Speaker 1: Hi is see Fishman. I hope you're enjoying Death in
Speaker 1: the Seat in Alliance. We've got a bonus episode coming
Speaker 1: for you. It's not going to be this Tuesday. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be the following Friday. Please look for it. Maggie
Speaker 1: Freeling is going to be our guest. She's bringing along Danny,
Speaker 1: one of the Private Eyes, and we're gonna go deep
Speaker 1: both in the plot and on how Maggie feels, how
Speaker 1: Maggie feels about feeling so publicly.
Speaker 2: Okay, please tune in.
Speaker 3: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.
Speaker 4: You know, I think there's a lot of questions that
Speaker 4: have never been asked of him. Who was he really?
Speaker 5: And I don't want him to try to bullshit us.
Speaker 6: You know, when you leave an interview and you feel
Speaker 6: like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting
Speaker 6: for their life, there's a reason behind that.
Speaker 4: And I said a point blank did that happen?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: And then he changed the subject pretty quickly.
Speaker 7: Man, Then.
Speaker 8: That's fine.
Speaker 9: You know, we know memories on tape recorders.
Speaker 7: Just tell us what you do remember.
Speaker 3: And he left out he was not going to bring
Speaker 3: up the fact that he was with Joe at the innings.
Speaker 4: Yeah, hello, is this mister Toole, Charlie Toole. I don't
Speaker 4: know who's this.
Speaker 3: This is death and Deceit and Alliance, a real time
Speaker 3: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 4: Hi, Banky, Hi.
Speaker 10: How are you?
Speaker 4: I'm good? How are you? Oh?
Speaker 3: I wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me.
Speaker 6: I told you, well you did so, I guess told you.
Speaker 3: After we get home from our meeting with David Thorne,
Speaker 3: I called one of the only other people who has
Speaker 3: put as much time and effort into this as we did,
Speaker 3: Dwayne Pullman, the award winning investigative TV journalist. If you remember,
Speaker 3: I spoke to Dwayne at the beginning of the season
Speaker 3: and he warned me this case would consume me and
Speaker 3: it did.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 11: So, you know, we've you know, been doing this for
Speaker 11: about a year now, and uh have come to some
Speaker 11: really interesting findings that I just wanted to let you
Speaker 11: know about and just see if you had any insight
Speaker 11: on anything.
Speaker 3: I wanted to see if you could help process it
Speaker 3: all or let us know if we were totally off base.
Speaker 11: Well, you you know, you spent a very very good
Speaker 11: amount of time on it and had some you know,
Speaker 11: really interesting thoughts last time.
Speaker 4: So it's been the being of my existence, trust me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 11: Well, I uh, I've had a full emotional meltdown over it.
Speaker 9: So I guess you know. We talked to everybody we
Speaker 9: could all the key.
Speaker 3: I started telling Dwayne about everyone we spoke to, plenty
Speaker 3: of whom didn't make it into the podcast. We also
Speaker 3: put up three billboards directing people with information to an
Speaker 3: anonymous tip line, and we tracked down every lead that
Speaker 3: came from that. I told him about Chris Campbell that
Speaker 3: we were always told he's a snitch and an informant,
Speaker 3: but we didn't find that. We also talked about Rose, and.
Speaker 9: Rose said too.
Speaker 11: Rose sent a text that said, I'm not talking to you,
Speaker 11: but I stand by what I said.
Speaker 9: And that's just interesting.
Speaker 4: I mean, so this sounds, yeah, I know, what is
Speaker 4: starting to sound like.
Speaker 3: The guys spoke to the Enochs who said they stood
Speaker 3: by everything they said at trial. In fact, they told
Speaker 3: the guys they're scared of Joe getting out because they're
Speaker 3: convinced he's a murderer. These are the people who took
Speaker 3: him in and cared for him. I told Dwayne how
Speaker 3: once we were on the ground in Alliance, we realized
Speaker 3: that it's nearly impossible for the tiny Alliance police force,
Speaker 3: where a lead investigator had only worked one homicide case ever,
Speaker 3: could have somehow mastermind a multi town cover up and
Speaker 3: convinced all these people who didn't know each other to lie. Sure,
Speaker 3: maybe people in Alliance were afraid of the police department,
Speaker 3: but all these other people from different towns who didn't
Speaker 3: know each other to all be coerced to lie against
Speaker 3: two kids for what. Dwayne agreed, it's not very Okham's razor.
Speaker 3: And then I brought up sam Peg, who was really
Speaker 3: the turning point for the guys.
Speaker 11: She sticks by it too, and she's like, I don't
Speaker 11: think Joe did it. I love him, I don't think
Speaker 11: he did this, but he did tell me this.
Speaker 3: She still said that Joe told her before the murder
Speaker 3: David wanted him to kill Yvaughan, and after the murder
Speaker 3: that Joe said he did.
Speaker 6: It get too contemporaneous then, and continuing that's interesting, that's
Speaker 6: pretty important.
Speaker 11: I mean, And after that we were like, all right,
Speaker 11: it seems pretty clear Joe was involved.
Speaker 9: Whether he blacked out and didn't.
Speaker 11: Remember being his involvement and how made up stories, right,
Speaker 11: it's just like he It's very unlikely that Joe was
Speaker 11: not involved at this point.
Speaker 9: So if we believe Joe.
Speaker 11: Was involved, then we have to look at did he
Speaker 11: do it on his own or did someone else.
Speaker 3: In the Enox testimony, they say when Joe came to
Speaker 3: live with them on March twenty seventh, he only had
Speaker 3: fifty cents to his name. Karen Enoch testified to buying
Speaker 3: Joe five dollars cigarettes because he couldn't afford anything. The
Speaker 3: night of the murder March thirty first, when he got
Speaker 3: dropped at the mall, Joe told the Enox he was
Speaker 3: going to clean out David's grandpa's garage. David told me
Speaker 3: that never happened. There was no garage cleanout. Plus, we
Speaker 3: know that David was at shoot fighting and mostly accounted
Speaker 3: for that night and none of it involved or left
Speaker 3: time for garage cleaning. But in the days after the murder,
Speaker 3: the Enox testified that Joe was waiting around for David
Speaker 3: to give him money for a garage cleaning, which, according
Speaker 3: to David, never happened.
Speaker 11: All three Enochs say in the days after the murder,
Speaker 11: Has David come by with my money?
Speaker 9: Has David come by with my money?
Speaker 11: The Enochs in their statements say he had fifty cents
Speaker 11: before the murder, like he had no money. They were
Speaker 11: buying him cigarettes. So somehow he comes up with this money,
Speaker 11: which points to someone paid him for something.
Speaker 6: Sure, and I remember that was absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: that all makes sense.
Speaker 3: A few days later, on April fifth, the Enoch said
Speaker 3: that David stopped by their house. He and Joe talked
Speaker 3: in the car and after that conversation, the Enoch said
Speaker 3: Joe was ready to go shopping. He asked their daughter,
Speaker 3: Summer Enoch, to take him. The next day, Summer took
Speaker 3: Joe shopping.
Speaker 8: We went to k there n he Kent and he
Speaker 8: bet a pair of ringer blades and a pair of
Speaker 8: work booth competer gonnas. Start working with my cousin Abby.
Speaker 7: We went to school and after where he got.
Speaker 8: Fax and he bet a pair of Nike shoes and
Speaker 8: I want did I tell you about there? And he
Speaker 8: wanted to hurry up and change into his new tennis.
Speaker 7: Shoes and he took Kicks old tennis shoes back and
Speaker 7: Ike paid that he had on and he put them
Speaker 7: in the bag and he changed and put a new
Speaker 7: parents back then, and he said he wanted to hurry
Speaker 7: up and hur them shoes away.
Speaker 8: And I said, manage to say why when we get home?
Speaker 8: He said, no, I want to get rid of him.
Speaker 4: Neck told that how much she take peached them? How
Speaker 4: about you?
Speaker 3: I want to say, is it a coincidence that this kid,
Speaker 3: who didn't even have enough money to buy cigarettes was
Speaker 3: talking for days about David coming by to pay him
Speaker 3: for something David said never happened, and then after he
Speaker 3: sees David suddenly spends around two hundred dollars shopping. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 9: I literally I could not say, yes, David Thornton did this.
Speaker 9: I don't think you know.
Speaker 11: I would never want to ruin a man's chance at
Speaker 11: freedom if he didn't do this. I think there's enough,
Speaker 11: if there, but what is the percentage of that he
Speaker 11: keeps getting?
Speaker 4: As they say, it gets worser and worser.
Speaker 3: And it's true David's own conversation with the guys made
Speaker 3: things worse. When he was given a chance to speak
Speaker 3: for himself without looking at timelines or having Sue explain
Speaker 3: things couldn't do it. It's not up for debate whether
Speaker 3: he was with Joe the day of the murder. The
Speaker 3: Enochs are credible. Yet David, he.
Speaker 11: Fully removed Joe from that day. He has built a
Speaker 11: counter narrative and every part of his day removes Joe.
Speaker 11: And so they finally circle back after letting him talk
Speaker 11: and whatever and go. But David, we know you're with
Speaker 11: Joe at five o'clock.
Speaker 3: At the Nuchs.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, you know what, I guess. I did run
Speaker 9: into him. I was buying a soda.
Speaker 4: It's valuable information. A lot of this is.
Speaker 6: Freaking good on you, man. Here's what we're paying attention to.
Speaker 6: And this is where the pis are really crucial. Here
Speaker 6: is you look for continuity, and you look for clarity,
Speaker 6: and you look for a lack of obfuscation and stuff
Speaker 6: like that, all the stuff that you know we do intuitively.
Speaker 6: He's failing every measure.
Speaker 4: Isn't he.
Speaker 3: I told Dwayne how David's explanation of when he knew
Speaker 3: Yvonne was selling sex kept shifting to me. He said
Speaker 3: he didn't know until after she died. But David told
Speaker 3: the guys he knew when he was taking her to
Speaker 3: those conventions. What Yvonne was doing. I told Dwayne how
Speaker 3: even when David did acknowledge that he saw Joe the
Speaker 3: day of the murder, the story was different than what
Speaker 3: it had been in the past. I also told him
Speaker 3: about Angie's allegations and the incidents of violence David did
Speaker 3: not voluntarily divulge, and that he minimized.
Speaker 4: It's excellent work there, you did.
Speaker 5: It's just.
Speaker 10: It's just really shook me.
Speaker 4: You know, Like, but truth is what truth is, isn't it.
Speaker 6: I mean, that's the whole job here. If Chris Campbell
Speaker 6: stands by the story, Sam stands by the story, do
Speaker 6: you have contemporaneous and continuing verification and then we have
Speaker 6: a hidden domestic violence situation which was violent? Holy shit?
Speaker 6: So this sounds Sam, you know, I know what it's
Speaker 6: starting to sound like.
Speaker 3: You can hear the sadness in Duyne's voice too, Maggie.
Speaker 6: Let me be clear on it. You know, I've always
Speaker 6: tied my belief in this that at some point, some way,
Speaker 6: the truth will reveal itself. And I've tried and tried
Speaker 6: and tried, and I'm pretty good at what I do
Speaker 6: and couldn't do this. So this has haunted me I
Speaker 6: told you that, you know, I'm thankful that you're doing
Speaker 6: what you're doing, especially on the level God. I mean,
Speaker 6: my loyalty is to truth, it's not to individuals. The time,
Speaker 6: given all the input and given all of the the
Speaker 6: points of reference, I concentrated on an ft UP murder
Speaker 6: scene and an ft UP trial.
Speaker 4: That was the right call, And.
Speaker 3: I agree with Duyne here. That's why we were all
Speaker 3: drawn to this case in the first place. This was
Speaker 3: a sloppy investigation conducted at a botched crime scene by
Speaker 3: inexperienced and frankly problematic officers, followed by a trial that
Speaker 3: left room for a lot of reasonable doubt. And in
Speaker 3: a court of law, people cannot be convicted if there
Speaker 3: is reasonable doubt.
Speaker 6: But you know, we were inconclusive on whether he did it.
Speaker 6: There was enough doubt about it, obviously, But the point is,
Speaker 6: you know, we took some runs at it and there
Speaker 6: were big questions.
Speaker 3: For example, we still don't know who Yvonne's neighbor George
Speaker 3: Hale saw leaving her house the morning after the murder,
Speaker 3: and there's still the Brady violation. The prosecution withheld George
Speaker 3: Hale's statement from David's defense team though the guys feel
Speaker 3: sure that the person George Hale saw was likely not
Speaker 3: the killer. As I've said before, her house was highly
Speaker 3: trafficked enough that a person could have been totally separate
Speaker 3: from the murder. Could have been a friend who was
Speaker 3: supposed to stop by in the morning for a coffee,
Speaker 3: stumbled on her dead body and fled. Or maybe it
Speaker 3: was an officer with a scheduled sex appointment who preemptively
Speaker 3: cleaned up any evidence of having had relations with her,
Speaker 3: not to cover up her murder necessarily, but maybe just
Speaker 3: to save his job.
Speaker 4: We raised the.
Speaker 6: Questions, they're getting answered, at least in part thanks to
Speaker 6: your work. I mean, do I feel itchy about it?
Speaker 6: I feel itchy about all parts of this. Yeah, and
Speaker 6: I always have from the minute I started.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Maggie, I think you know this.
Speaker 6: I'm not like, I'm just supporting. The truth is the truth,
Speaker 6: whether we are comfortable with it or not, that's what
Speaker 6: it is. And if things don't add up, they don't
Speaker 6: add up. And sorry, that's one of those indications. I mean, he,
Speaker 6: on all appearances, seems to be a nice, kind of
Speaker 6: all American boy. Does any now and man you know
Speaker 6: or an older man but you know, it's not about
Speaker 6: appearances and it's not about charm. It's about the truth.
Speaker 6: But you know, as I absorb it, all I really
Speaker 6: care about is the closure of it all. And I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, I can't imagine have you can't Sue yet?
Speaker 3: And what was her reaction at this point? The answer
Speaker 3: was yes, Sue, David's wife, an advocate, had been told,
Speaker 3: but not by me. After everything we found or hadn't found,
Speaker 3: John and Danny decided they could not take David's case. Remember,
Speaker 3: all of this was preliminary work to see if there
Speaker 3: was enough meat to David's claim of innocence to invest
Speaker 3: more time and money into the case. And after a
Speaker 3: year of research, hundreds of hours, invested five trips to Ohio,
Speaker 3: two separate prison interviews, tip lines, billboards, we found absolutely
Speaker 3: nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence, and
Speaker 3: what we did find was more damning than helpful. The
Speaker 3: guys wrote David and Joe explaining their position and had
Speaker 3: a long phone call with Sue explaining everything they told her.
Speaker 3: Anytime she wanted to call or ask questions, they'd be there.
Speaker 3: I told her the same thing, and I was for
Speaker 3: a while up until this episode when she stopped speaking
Speaker 3: to me. No one expects Sue, who invested most of
Speaker 3: her life, including years of marriage, and who went nearly
Speaker 3: bankrupt trying to help her husband, to accept our conclusion.
Speaker 3: It's clear she's frustrated with the outcome and looking for
Speaker 3: flaws in our investigation, saying we didn't do enough and
Speaker 3: didn't follow the new leads we found. But truthfully, the
Speaker 3: guys didn't see a reason to start going down that
Speaker 3: road when nothing pointed us away from Joe. That's why
Speaker 3: they did this investigation to see if it was worth it. Still,
Speaker 3: I can't blame Sue. This isn't just another investigation for her.
Speaker 3: It's her life, and all I can say is that
Speaker 3: I get it, and if she ever reaches a point
Speaker 3: where she wants to talk it over, I'll be here.
Speaker 3: To be clear, John and Danny are not labeling David
Speaker 3: Thorn a killer, and neither am I. Any case adopted
Speaker 3: by any innocence project has to have evidence, something new,
Speaker 3: something missed to help clear the person convicted. We can't
Speaker 3: find that in this case. So while the guys packed
Speaker 3: it up and moved on to other cases, I still couldn't.
Speaker 2: Hey going on?
Speaker 10: You can hear me?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Okay, awesome?
Speaker 9: How are you?
Speaker 8: I just do?
Speaker 3: I decided I still needed to give David one last
Speaker 3: chance to explain to me what happened. Why was the
Speaker 3: story he told me different than what he told the guys.
Speaker 3: Was he lying? Why did he omit?
Speaker 2: Joe?
Speaker 3: Maybe he had a good explanation. Why did the guys
Speaker 3: leave there feeling the way they did?
Speaker 5: So you know, you could tell me your side of it,
Speaker 5: like that's I want to hear your side of their great.
Speaker 2: Things, Jiggins. My only problem was whenever they start to
Speaker 2: ask me a question, I started to answer, as I'm
Speaker 2: in the answer, then something I say or a secondary
Speaker 2: question comes up, and then like the flow of the
Speaker 2: conversation was kind of convoluted, I guess, because then I'm
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just chasing my puts on the answered.
Speaker 3: David said, John and Danny were confusing him, asking one
Speaker 3: question on top of another. But I've heard them do
Speaker 3: dozens of interviews. You've heard it too. That's not their style.
Speaker 3: Their slow, methodical and even played dumb. As Danny likes
Speaker 3: to say, Colombo the person to get the answers, badgering
Speaker 3: is just not their style. And on top of that,
Speaker 3: David had his attorney present. It was a legal visit.
Speaker 3: If the guys had been steamrolling him, certainly she would
Speaker 3: have stopped it. That's why she was there. I told
Speaker 3: David he needed to find a better explanation for why
Speaker 3: he couldn't answer questions because I wasn't buying it. So
Speaker 3: he tried explaining why he had multiple versions for how
Speaker 3: he wound up with Joe on the thirty first after
Speaker 3: initially omitting him, and not.
Speaker 2: Be honest, I'd blended two different events. But then I guess,
Speaker 2: for lack of a better way of saying, in my defense,
Speaker 2: the time that they're questioning me of is before anything
Speaker 2: ever happened. So to me, that's just another normal day
Speaker 2: in my life. I don't know how else they explain it.
Speaker 2: There was nothing exciting going on, nothing to be truly remembered.
Speaker 2: That's just bluffing something out for months prior and trying
Speaker 2: to play, trying to put it together.
Speaker 3: But remember, on April second, the day after Yvonne's body
Speaker 3: was found, David was in the precinct with his attorney
Speaker 3: for questioning. That's just two days after he would have
Speaker 3: been with Joe. It's unlikely he just forgot about that,
Speaker 3: especially when he's being pressed for an alibi. Here's one
Speaker 3: of our first conversations.
Speaker 12: By the time they started talking to me, I'm going
Speaker 12: in to try to help them figure this out, and
Speaker 12: all of a sudden they're telling me, you know, help us,
Speaker 12: help you, and I don't need the help, don't you know.
Speaker 4: What I mean.
Speaker 2: I'm here to help you.
Speaker 12: And then whenever I saw that they were actually looking
Speaker 12: at me, then that's whenever I had well, actually, my
Speaker 12: grandfather contacted and attorney.
Speaker 3: The David knew immediately he was a suspect, and usually
Speaker 3: that means you start scrambling for an alibi? What was
Speaker 3: I doing when this person was killed? So they know
Speaker 3: it wasn't me. Imagine someone ask you today, what were
Speaker 3: you doing on some nondescript day two months ago? Of
Speaker 3: course you'd struggle. But the first time David was asked
Speaker 3: to recount his day was the day after Yvonne's body
Speaker 3: was found. And if he was racking his brain for
Speaker 3: an alibi what he was doing that day, surely being
Speaker 3: with Joe and the cub would have popped into his head. Granted,
Speaker 3: David didn't answer those questions. At the time, his lawyer
Speaker 3: shut down the interview, but he knew he needed to
Speaker 3: get that information ready. He was suspect number one in
Speaker 3: a murder case who at some point might have to
Speaker 3: argue his innocence.
Speaker 10: I mean, their big hang up it wasn't even the blending.
Speaker 5: It was that you were not going to say you
Speaker 5: were with Joe that day at the Enoch And they said,
Speaker 5: they asked you multiple, multiple times, what your.
Speaker 2: David like shipping there, because is what they kept asking
Speaker 2: me is saying that I was there beforehand, And I said,
Speaker 2: I was never there beforehand because that was the first
Speaker 2: time that I was ever there, because that's the first
Speaker 2: time that I ever met Karen.
Speaker 3: Because David went on to talk about something completely different,
Speaker 3: so I circled back.
Speaker 5: That's not the issue though. Their issue was they said,
Speaker 5: lay out your timeline of that day. That day, you know,
Speaker 5: you were in the Enochs driveway at five o'clock whisked
Speaker 5: the lion, And they said they asked you multiple times,
Speaker 5: and they finally said, well, you.
Speaker 10: Were with Joe that day and you They did not
Speaker 10: like that you were not going to tell them you
Speaker 10: were with Joe that day.
Speaker 2: See, I don't get that. Whenever they asked me what
Speaker 2: I was doing by the time I left, I told
Speaker 2: them I said, I don't know exactly what time that
Speaker 2: I was there. Other than that I never said I
Speaker 2: wasn't there.
Speaker 10: But you did, you, David, That's what they're saying. You
Speaker 10: didn't tell them that you kept omitting that information.
Speaker 2: I mean, why else was I there? Though that's nothing
Speaker 2: given them.
Speaker 5: It looks like you're trying to actively not put yourself
Speaker 5: with the person who likely did this.
Speaker 10: They said, they asked you multiple times, what else happened?
Speaker 10: What else happened?
Speaker 3: He starts circling again, and they.
Speaker 10: Said, it said, you didn't see Joe, And then you said, oh, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Saw Joe because on that one they were asking me
Speaker 2: about the money from UH summer, and I said I
Speaker 2: didn't give any money to him whenever I saw him.
Speaker 2: And they said, so you saw him, and I said yeah.
Speaker 2: But I don't think at the time that they're saying
Speaker 2: because that part I don't recall. You know, this one
Speaker 2: piffic day, I think. But and then he asked me
Speaker 2: going back to the thing, So it wasn't that I
Speaker 2: was denying being there, because that's the only reason I
Speaker 2: was there because I happened right, reason to be at
Speaker 2: the Enochs other than Joe, because I don't know there
Speaker 2: are people from Adam.
Speaker 10: Right, which yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: I mean, that was just their hang up that you
Speaker 5: weren't going to tell them that you were there even
Speaker 5: though they knew you were there.
Speaker 2: I didn't deny it, that's just it. I didn't. I
Speaker 2: still don't understand.
Speaker 5: How, but that's how they felt. The whole conversation was,
Speaker 5: is you weren't giving information. They had to pull information
Speaker 5: out of you, is how they felt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know what it is that you
Speaker 2: want me to say to you unless you asked me
Speaker 2: the question.
Speaker 5: The timeline of your day? They said, what is the
Speaker 5: timeline of your day? You know you were at the Enochs.
Speaker 5: Why didn't you put that in your timeline?
Speaker 2: It wasn't my timeline.
Speaker 10: They said, you did not tell them you were with
Speaker 10: when you were laying out the timeline.
Speaker 3: And then finally, after all the circling, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know that I have to tell them that I'm
Speaker 2: standing there with him because that's the only reason that
Speaker 2: I'm there.
Speaker 10: But you do, David, You have to tell them everything.
Speaker 5: They asked you to tell them everything, and that's their
Speaker 5: problem is you didn't tell them anything.
Speaker 10: They said. They left that conversation feeling like they told
Speaker 10: you more than you told them.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I'm sorry that they feel
Speaker 2: that way, but I was just trying to answer the
Speaker 2: questions as they came, and that was that.
Speaker 3: David said he didn't tell them he was in the
Speaker 3: Enochs driveway with Joe just hours before Yvonne was killed
Speaker 3: as part of the timeline. They asked him to lay
Speaker 3: out because he didn't know he had to. My hope
Speaker 3: of David fighting for his innocence was out the window.
Speaker 10: Do you want to tell your side of the Angie story?
Speaker 3: David denied the allegations Angie made and gave an explanation
Speaker 3: for why, according to him, she made it all up.
Speaker 3: He said that she had started dating someone new her
Speaker 3: now husband.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he found out or when he
Speaker 2: found out that they were already engaged, and she paid
Speaker 2: for a hotel on Ralph five for us to go
Speaker 2: to whenever they were dating.
Speaker 3: He said that the reason Angie lied about it all
Speaker 3: is because her now husband told her to because he
Speaker 3: was pissed she cheated on him with David years earlier.
Speaker 3: According to David, this is why she made up multiple
Speaker 3: incidents of abuse. However, David did admit to something. He
Speaker 3: admitted to shooting out the car tires while Angie was
Speaker 3: in the car, like she claimed. Well, Angie said it
Speaker 3: was four tires. David said, actually it was just one.
Speaker 3: But let me repeat. He admitted to shooting at a
Speaker 3: car that a woman his girlfriend was sitting in.
Speaker 2: But she was leaving in my car, and I mean,
Speaker 2: after all, it was my car.
Speaker 3: And then I asked David why his story about the
Speaker 3: sex work changed, So I.
Speaker 5: Guess one of my questions though, you specifically told me,
Speaker 5: but I will send you the tape that you had
Speaker 5: no idea why she was going to conventions and when
Speaker 5: you told the guys, you told the guys that you
Speaker 5: knew why she was going and you just had to
Speaker 5: put it out of your mind.
Speaker 2: That was afterwards. Her and I went together twice when
Speaker 2: I was taking her for the conventions and everything, I
Speaker 2: had no idea when her and I got back together
Speaker 2: after Brandon is when she came queen.
Speaker 10: Okay, they said it was very clear that you said
Speaker 10: no I told them.
Speaker 2: Why you were because they asked me what it was
Speaker 2: like for me being with her on the second time around.
Speaker 2: I had to put that out of my mind because
Speaker 2: that was part of whether her and I were really
Speaker 2: getting get together and be together the second time around.
Speaker 2: That's where we aired out all of our dirty laundryf
Speaker 2: with each other. But then whenever they asked me if
Speaker 2: I knew, yeah, I knew not whenever we were together
Speaker 2: the first time, but I knew the second time.
Speaker 3: So if this is confusing for you, it's confusing for
Speaker 3: me too. I've never been able to get a straight
Speaker 3: answer on when he knew about the conversations and why
Speaker 3: he told the guys he knew exactly why he was
Speaker 3: dropping her off, and why he told me he had
Speaker 3: no idea. David had written a letter to me at
Speaker 3: the end of August saying, had I known Yvonne was
Speaker 3: working conventions, then yes, I would have tried to get custody.
Speaker 3: I'd have led with that, no questions asked. Who would
Speaker 3: subject their child to a revolving door of unknown people
Speaker 3: and access And this is just incredible because David did know.
Speaker 3: Now I'm thinking if the police got this right, maybe
Speaker 3: the motive wasn't about money or paying Yvonne child support.
Speaker 3: Maybe it was that David did not want his son
Speaker 3: to be in that kind of environment. Maybe David had
Speaker 3: a decent, I guess noble motive. David's grandfather said David
Speaker 3: wanted custody in his police interview after April seventh, but
Speaker 3: added that David couldn't prove Yvonne an unfit mother because
Speaker 3: the kids were always clean and the house was clean.
Speaker 3: So was David just desperate enough to get custody of
Speaker 3: Brandon that he had Yvonne killed. The more we dug,
Speaker 3: the more we found out that David seemed to have
Speaker 3: minimized or omitted some pretty key details. That he was
Speaker 3: with Joe the day Yvonne died, that he'd been violent
Speaker 3: or alleged to be violent towards women in the past,
Speaker 3: that he knew about Yvonne's sex work. And at first
Speaker 3: all of this may seem innocuous, but when you start
Speaker 3: piecing it together, it's not. Key stories fit together. The
Speaker 3: police were not sophisticated enough to mastermind a cover up.
Speaker 3: John Danny and I discussed this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes the bubblin idiots get it right.
Speaker 4: By axit well, a broken clock is right twice a day.
Speaker 3: It seems they formed their theory that David Thorn recruited
Speaker 3: someone to Killy Vaughan, and then looked for evidence to
Speaker 3: support the theory. We know the police were getting desperate
Speaker 3: from the psychic interview. Eventually the case fell right in
Speaker 3: their lap, starting with Rose. If her building manager hadn't
Speaker 3: called the police to say Rose knew something, the police
Speaker 3: may never have known about Joe. After that, the pieces
Speaker 3: all fell into place. Rose and Chris told the police
Speaker 3: about Joe, telling them he was in town to murder
Speaker 3: a girl. Joe told the police about Sam Peg, his
Speaker 3: best friend. Sam told the police that Joe was telling
Speaker 3: her months ahead of time about this. The Enuchs confirmed
Speaker 3: Joe had no money until he saw David. David's alibi
Speaker 3: had holes in it. It's all right there, But yet
Speaker 3: all of us have been drawn to the case because
Speaker 3: the arrests came from a notoriously corrupt department with detectives
Speaker 3: that had less than stellar reputations, and a botched crime
Speaker 3: scene and Brady violations, and multiple people who could have
Speaker 3: done this who were never looked into, and all of
Speaker 3: this corroborated by their own police records. The trial left
Speaker 3: what I would certainly consider reasonable doubt. There was no
Speaker 3: conclusive physical evidence linking Joe to the scene. Had the
Speaker 3: jurors heard from George Hale, the neighbor who saw an
Speaker 3: unknown man leave Yvonne's house after she was dead, perhaps
Speaker 3: the verdict would have been different. But they didn't. They
Speaker 3: didn't know about Hale because the prosecution didn't tell them,
Speaker 3: despite being obligated to disclose information like that. If David's
Speaker 3: team had called an expert to refute the state's evidence,
Speaker 3: maybe we wouldn't be here. But none of that happened.
Speaker 3: And if there's one thing I can say for sure
Speaker 3: about this case, it's that David Thorne did not get
Speaker 3: a fair trial, and there are still lingering questions we
Speaker 3: may never get answers to the crime scene certainly does
Speaker 3: not match Joe's statement, and neither does a knife, which remember,
Speaker 3: didn't have any blood on it. Why has Joe's story
Speaker 3: changed so many times? It's possible today he's confused by
Speaker 3: how many people have questioned him, asked him different versions,
Speaker 3: told him different stories. He doesn't know what's true anymore.
Speaker 3: But I do know that Joe believes He is the
Speaker 3: kind caring person we heard so much about who was
Speaker 3: severely abused and just wanted someone to love him, and
Speaker 3: in this case, David was that someone. I think Joe
Speaker 3: did go there with the folding knife, the only folding
Speaker 3: knife of that kind bought that year on March thirty first,
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, at the exact time Joe said he
Speaker 3: bought it, but after Chris Campbell made fun of him
Speaker 3: and said, who are you going to kill with that?
Speaker 3: He ditched it and used the kitchen knife. That's why
Speaker 3: there was no blood on the folding knife, and that's
Speaker 3: why a kitchen knife was missing, because Joe used it
Speaker 3: for me. That's a reasonable explanation for some of the
Speaker 3: lingering questions. Others may just never be answered. And so
Speaker 3: we have no new evidence pointing to innocence. And once
Speaker 3: someone is convicted by a jury, it's nearly impossible to
Speaker 3: get out without that new evidence. So there was nowhere
Speaker 3: left for us to go after the investigation. The billboards
Speaker 3: expired and came down, and the tip line was shut off.
Speaker 3: I have recovered since twenty twenty one. After losing trust
Speaker 3: in myself, I dusted off my shame, picked up my
Speaker 3: head and kept going at what I know. I'm good
Speaker 3: at finding the truth and telling stories. I went on
Speaker 3: to win a Pulitzer for my reporting on mandatory minimums
Speaker 3: and juvenile lifers in the podcast Suave in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: Since then, I've learned about and poured my heart and
Speaker 3: soul into reporting on countless innocent people in prison and
Speaker 3: telling their stories. A conservative estimate is that there are
Speaker 3: more than twenty thousand innocent people in prison, but experts
Speaker 3: say numbers are more likely in the hundreds of thousands.
Speaker 3: One of those people. I recently released a new investigation
Speaker 3: on the first since Yvonne's, called Graves County, where not
Speaker 3: only do I get it right, but much of my
Speaker 3: reporting and series was inspired by processing the aftermath of
Speaker 3: getting it wrong. I found a case where a journalist
Speaker 3: got it wrong like I did, yet he refuses to
Speaker 3: speak to me or acknowledge his mistakes or worse. I
Speaker 3: think it's crucial to talk about our fallibilities as journalists.
Speaker 3: Not only does it keep us honest, but it keeps
Speaker 3: us humble and human. And ultimately, at the end of
Speaker 3: all this, there was a woman, a mother, a friend,
Speaker 3: a daughter who was brutally murdered, and her family has
Speaker 3: had to live with that for going on three decades,
Speaker 3: and a police department who did them no justice, allowing
Speaker 3: countless people to spend time and resources looking into what
Speaker 3: was very likely correct, but so poorly investigated it left
Speaker 3: too many questions for confidence. We went into this in
Speaker 3: part to get justice for Yvonne Lane and her family.
Speaker 3: They deserve to know the truth, and now I think
Speaker 3: the truth was there. The whole time, I believed this
Speaker 3: was very very likely a wrongful conviction. So did many others,
Speaker 3: meaning we also believed that there was someone else out
Speaker 3: there getting away with Yvonne's murder. That's why I recruited
Speaker 3: investigators to take a look. But now we believe that
Speaker 3: broken clock was right, and Yvonne's friends and family finally
Speaker 3: deserve to have their mother, daughter, and loved one rest
Speaker 3: in peace. If the police had just done their job,
Speaker 3: if they hadn't left so much room for doubt, I
Speaker 3: believe Yvonne's family would not have had the worst moment
Speaker 3: of their lives brought up countless times for nearly three decades,
Speaker 3: and I want to repeat discussions about whether Yvonne was
Speaker 3: or was not a sex worker or a dancer, or
Speaker 3: use drugs are important to the case, but beyond that,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Her life was worth more than a
Speaker 3: pair of Nikke shoes and some roller blades, regardless of
Speaker 3: what choices she made in her life and her children.
Speaker 3: I hope at least that Evonne's five boys can conclude
Speaker 3: what they want and remember her how they want. Tony, Vinnie, Brandon,
Speaker 3: Trenton and Preston deserve that.
Speaker 9: If you could correct everything that's been said about her.
Speaker 3: What do you want people to know?
Speaker 4: I think that's the thing what I did for from
Speaker 4: a lot of people. Honestly, I don't I really know
Speaker 4: you the damn what they think about her? I know
Speaker 4: how I feeled about her. Why do I kill what
Speaker 4: anyone else thinks?
Speaker 6: Whether she slept the people, dnsely with people, whether she
Speaker 6: did drugs andrew drugs.
Speaker 4: Why do I kill anyone? Thanks for me?
Speaker 3: Well, what do you think about her?
Speaker 4: I loved her, she was crazy, A loved her.
Speaker 3: Death and deceit In The Alliance is produced and reported
Speaker 3: by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt.
Speaker 3: Aaron Case is our legal researcher, our executive producer is
Speaker 3: Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith.
Speaker 3: Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.