WEBVTT - Death & Deceit in Alliance | 14. The Reckoning 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.680 Hi is see Fishman. I hope you're enjoying Death in 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:06.840 the Seat in Alliance. We've got a bonus episode coming 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.440 for you. It's not going to be this Tuesday. It's 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:14.280 gonna be the following Friday. Please look for it. Maggie 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.080 Freeling is going to be our guest. She's bringing along Danny, 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.600 one of the Private Eyes, and we're gonna go deep 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.960 both in the plot and on how Maggie feels, how 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.360 Maggie feels about feeling so publicly. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:30.680 Okay, please tune in. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.640 Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance. 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:37.400 You know, I think there's a lot of questions that 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.879 have never been asked of him. Who was he really? 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.760 And I don't want him to try to bullshit us. 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:44.800 You know, when you leave an interview and you feel 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.320 like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.960 for their life, there's a reason behind that. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.080 And I said a point blank did that happen? 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:54.440 No? 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.760 And then he changed the subject pretty quickly. 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.600 Man, Then. 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:02.160 That's fine. 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.160 You know, we know memories on tape recorders. 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.440 Just tell us what you do remember. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:10.000 And he left out he was not going to bring 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:12.720 up the fact that he was with Joe at the innings. 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.280 Yeah, hello, is this mister Toole, Charlie Toole. I don't 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:25.000 know who's this. 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.039 This is death and Deceit and Alliance, a real time 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:34.400 investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:46.440 Hi, Banky, Hi. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:47.000 How are you? 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.600 I'm good? How are you? Oh? 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.880 I wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me. 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.520 I told you, well you did so, I guess told you. 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:00.800 After we get home from our meeting with David Thorne, 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.600 I called one of the only other people who has 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.640 put as much time and effort into this as we did, 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.840 Dwayne Pullman, the award winning investigative TV journalist. If you remember, 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:14.080 I spoke to Dwayne at the beginning of the season 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.720 and he warned me this case would consume me and 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:19.120 it did. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:19.520 Yeah. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.680 So, you know, we've you know, been doing this for 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.640 about a year now, and uh have come to some 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.240 really interesting findings that I just wanted to let you 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.080 know about and just see if you had any insight 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:31.720 on anything. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.480 I wanted to see if you could help process it 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.840 all or let us know if we were totally off base. 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.680 Well, you you know, you spent a very very good 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:42.360 amount of time on it and had some you know, 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:43.880 really interesting thoughts last time. 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:48.000 So it's been the being of my existence, trust me. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:49.280 Yeah. 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.320 Well, I uh, I've had a full emotional meltdown over it. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.640 So I guess you know. We talked to everybody we 0:02:56.680 --> 0:02:57.600 could all the key. 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.560 I started telling Dwayne about everyone we spoke to, plenty 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.360 of whom didn't make it into the podcast. We also 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.960 put up three billboards directing people with information to an 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.400 anonymous tip line, and we tracked down every lead that 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.520 came from that. I told him about Chris Campbell that 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.240 we were always told he's a snitch and an informant, 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.440 but we didn't find that. We also talked about Rose, and. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:20.440 Rose said too. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.240 Rose sent a text that said, I'm not talking to you, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:24.520 but I stand by what I said. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:27.160 And that's just interesting. 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:31.519 I mean, so this sounds, yeah, I know, what is 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:32.480 starting to sound like. 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:34.960 The guys spoke to the Enochs who said they stood 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.400 by everything they said at trial. In fact, they told 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.120 the guys they're scared of Joe getting out because they're 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.200 convinced he's a murderer. These are the people who took 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.640 him in and cared for him. I told Dwayne how 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.200 once we were on the ground in Alliance, we realized 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:54.360 that it's nearly impossible for the tiny Alliance police force, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.680 where a lead investigator had only worked one homicide case ever, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.880 could have somehow mastermind a multi town cover up and 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.720 convinced all these people who didn't know each other to lie. Sure, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.680 maybe people in Alliance were afraid of the police department, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.440 but all these other people from different towns who didn't 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.920 know each other to all be coerced to lie against 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:23.559 two kids for what. Dwayne agreed, it's not very Okham's razor. 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.960 And then I brought up sam Peg, who was really 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:28.960 the turning point for the guys. 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.360 She sticks by it too, and she's like, I don't 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.160 think Joe did it. I love him, I don't think 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:35.760 he did this, but he did tell me this. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.799 She still said that Joe told her before the murder 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.440 David wanted him to kill Yvaughan, and after the murder 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:43.960 that Joe said he did. 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:49.240 It get too contemporaneous then, and continuing that's interesting, that's 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:51.640 pretty important. 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.240 I mean, And after that we were like, all right, 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.400 it seems pretty clear Joe was involved. 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.160 Whether he blacked out and didn't. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.040 Remember being his involvement and how made up stories, right, 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.120 it's just like he It's very unlikely that Joe was 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:07.359 not involved at this point. 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:09.200 So if we believe Joe. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.440 Was involved, then we have to look at did he 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:12.920 do it on his own or did someone else. 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.520 In the Enox testimony, they say when Joe came to 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.320 live with them on March twenty seventh, he only had 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.000 fifty cents to his name. Karen Enoch testified to buying 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.240 Joe five dollars cigarettes because he couldn't afford anything. The 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.400 night of the murder March thirty first, when he got 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.200 dropped at the mall, Joe told the Enox he was 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.000 going to clean out David's grandpa's garage. David told me 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.279 that never happened. There was no garage cleanout. Plus, we 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.680 know that David was at shoot fighting and mostly accounted 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.920 for that night and none of it involved or left 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.159 time for garage cleaning. But in the days after the murder, 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.800 the Enox testified that Joe was waiting around for David 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.400 to give him money for a garage cleaning, which, according 0:05:57.480 --> 0:05:59.159 to David, never happened. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.839 All three Enochs say in the days after the murder, 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:04.120 Has David come by with my money? 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:05.480 Has David come by with my money? 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.960 The Enochs in their statements say he had fifty cents 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.120 before the murder, like he had no money. They were 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.200 buying him cigarettes. So somehow he comes up with this money, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.160 which points to someone paid him for something. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:26.800 Sure, and I remember that was absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:27.560 that all makes sense. 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.400 A few days later, on April fifth, the Enoch said 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.200 that David stopped by their house. He and Joe talked 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.520 in the car and after that conversation, the Enoch said 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.680 Joe was ready to go shopping. He asked their daughter, 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.440 Summer Enoch, to take him. The next day, Summer took 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:45.200 Joe shopping. 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.880 We went to k there n he Kent and he 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.120 bet a pair of ringer blades and a pair of 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:54.520 work booth competer gonnas. Start working with my cousin Abby. 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.400 We went to school and after where he got. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.240 Fax and he bet a pair of Nike shoes and 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.680 I want did I tell you about there? And he 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.280 wanted to hurry up and change into his new tennis. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.920 Shoes and he took Kicks old tennis shoes back and 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.480 Ike paid that he had on and he put them 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:17.040 in the bag and he changed and put a new 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:19.560 parents back then, and he said he wanted to hurry 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:20.720 up and hur them shoes away. 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.120 And I said, manage to say why when we get home? 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:24.920 He said, no, I want to get rid of him. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.760 Neck told that how much she take peached them? How 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:29.160 about you? 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.320 I want to say, is it a coincidence that this kid, 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.440 who didn't even have enough money to buy cigarettes was 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.000 talking for days about David coming by to pay him 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.400 for something David said never happened, and then after he 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.400 sees David suddenly spends around two hundred dollars shopping. I 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:46.760 don't know. 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.600 I literally I could not say, yes, David Thornton did this. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:50.680 I don't think you know. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.520 I would never want to ruin a man's chance at 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.960 freedom if he didn't do this. I think there's enough, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.240 if there, but what is the percentage of that he 0:07:59.320 --> 0:07:59.840 keeps getting? 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:02.800 As they say, it gets worser and worser. 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.840 And it's true David's own conversation with the guys made 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.760 things worse. When he was given a chance to speak 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.800 for himself without looking at timelines or having Sue explain 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.920 things couldn't do it. It's not up for debate whether 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.240 he was with Joe the day of the murder. The 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.120 Enochs are credible. Yet David, he. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.160 Fully removed Joe from that day. He has built a 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.080 counter narrative and every part of his day removes Joe. 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.679 And so they finally circle back after letting him talk 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.800 and whatever and go. But David, we know you're with 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:36.040 Joe at five o'clock. 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:36.360 At the Nuchs. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.400 Oh yeah, you know what, I guess. I did run 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:42.400 into him. I was buying a soda. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.320 It's valuable information. A lot of this is. 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.760 Freaking good on you, man. Here's what we're paying attention to. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.960 And this is where the pis are really crucial. Here 0:08:54.280 --> 0:09:00.840 is you look for continuity, and you look for clarity, 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.559 and you look for a lack of obfuscation and stuff 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.000 like that, all the stuff that you know we do intuitively. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.240 He's failing every measure. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:12.360 Isn't he. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.000 I told Dwayne how David's explanation of when he knew 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.920 Yvonne was selling sex kept shifting to me. He said 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.280 he didn't know until after she died. But David told 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.079 the guys he knew when he was taking her to 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.679 those conventions. What Yvonne was doing. I told Dwayne how 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.599 even when David did acknowledge that he saw Joe the 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.280 day of the murder, the story was different than what 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.280 it had been in the past. I also told him 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.600 about Angie's allegations and the incidents of violence David did 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.160 not voluntarily divulge, and that he minimized. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:46.280 It's excellent work there, you did. 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:48.160 It's just. 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:51.160 It's just really shook me. 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.640 You know, Like, but truth is what truth is, isn't it. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.000 I mean, that's the whole job here. If Chris Campbell 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:03.559 stands by the story, Sam stands by the story, do 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:09.599 you have contemporaneous and continuing verification and then we have 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:17.000 a hidden domestic violence situation which was violent? Holy shit? 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.480 So this sounds Sam, you know, I know what it's 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:21.439 starting to sound like. 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.680 You can hear the sadness in Duyne's voice too, Maggie. 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:30.560 Let me be clear on it. You know, I've always 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:38.000 tied my belief in this that at some point, some way, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:40.880 the truth will reveal itself. And I've tried and tried 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.120 and tried, and I'm pretty good at what I do 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.079 and couldn't do this. So this has haunted me I 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.640 told you that, you know, I'm thankful that you're doing 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.760 what you're doing, especially on the level God. I mean, 0:10:54.800 --> 0:11:00.440 my loyalty is to truth, it's not to individuals. The time, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.199 given all the input and given all of the the 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.680 points of reference, I concentrated on an ft UP murder 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:12.800 scene and an ft UP trial. 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:14.840 That was the right call, And. 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.679 I agree with Duyne here. That's why we were all 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.400 drawn to this case in the first place. This was 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:24.760 a sloppy investigation conducted at a botched crime scene by 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:29.839 inexperienced and frankly problematic officers, followed by a trial that 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.079 left room for a lot of reasonable doubt. And in 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.640 a court of law, people cannot be convicted if there 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:38.160 is reasonable doubt. 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.920 But you know, we were inconclusive on whether he did it. 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.920 There was enough doubt about it, obviously, But the point is, 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:51.200 you know, we took some runs at it and there 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:52.200 were big questions. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.520 For example, we still don't know who Yvonne's neighbor George 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.240 Hale saw leaving her house the morning after the murder, 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.880 and there's still the Brady violation. The prosecution withheld George 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:08.160 Hale's statement from David's defense team though the guys feel 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.760 sure that the person George Hale saw was likely not 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.640 the killer. As I've said before, her house was highly 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.280 trafficked enough that a person could have been totally separate 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:21.480 from the murder. Could have been a friend who was 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.640 supposed to stop by in the morning for a coffee, 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.640 stumbled on her dead body and fled. Or maybe it 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.199 was an officer with a scheduled sex appointment who preemptively 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.400 cleaned up any evidence of having had relations with her, 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:38.599 not to cover up her murder necessarily, but maybe just 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:39.960 to save his job. 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:42.840 We raised the. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:48.199 Questions, they're getting answered, at least in part thanks to 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:51.120 your work. I mean, do I feel itchy about it? 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.800 I feel itchy about all parts of this. Yeah, and 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:55.679 I always have from the minute I started. 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.959 Yeah, Maggie, I think you know this. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:06.079 I'm not like, I'm just supporting. The truth is the truth, 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.000 whether we are comfortable with it or not, that's what 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.400 it is. And if things don't add up, they don't 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:20.760 add up. And sorry, that's one of those indications. I mean, he, 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.199 on all appearances, seems to be a nice, kind of 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.839 all American boy. Does any now and man you know 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:31.920 or an older man but you know, it's not about 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.120 appearances and it's not about charm. It's about the truth. 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.920 But you know, as I absorb it, all I really 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:46.040 care about is the closure of it all. And I mean, 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.120 you know, I can't imagine have you can't Sue yet? 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.679 And what was her reaction at this point? The answer 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.360 was yes, Sue, David's wife, an advocate, had been told, 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.839 but not by me. After everything we found or hadn't found, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.680 John and Danny decided they could not take David's case. Remember, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.760 all of this was preliminary work to see if there 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.720 was enough meat to David's claim of innocence to invest 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.760 more time and money into the case. And after a 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.880 year of research, hundreds of hours, invested five trips to Ohio, 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:23.360 two separate prison interviews, tip lines, billboards, we found absolutely 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.360 nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence, and 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.400 what we did find was more damning than helpful. The 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.600 guys wrote David and Joe explaining their position and had 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.440 a long phone call with Sue explaining everything they told her. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.880 Anytime she wanted to call or ask questions, they'd be there. 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.720 I told her the same thing, and I was for 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.160 a while up until this episode when she stopped speaking 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:52.000 to me. No one expects Sue, who invested most of 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.320 her life, including years of marriage, and who went nearly 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.520 bankrupt trying to help her husband, to accept our conclusion. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.000 It's clear she's frustrated with the outcome and looking for 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.360 flaws in our investigation, saying we didn't do enough and 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.000 didn't follow the new leads we found. But truthfully, the 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.720 guys didn't see a reason to start going down that 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.400 road when nothing pointed us away from Joe. That's why 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:21.280 they did this investigation to see if it was worth it. Still, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:25.520 I can't blame Sue. This isn't just another investigation for her. 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.560 It's her life, and all I can say is that 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.120 I get it, and if she ever reaches a point 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.600 where she wants to talk it over, I'll be here. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.520 To be clear, John and Danny are not labeling David 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.560 Thorn a killer, and neither am I. Any case adopted 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.040 by any innocence project has to have evidence, something new, 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.560 something missed to help clear the person convicted. We can't 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.120 find that in this case. So while the guys packed 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.920 it up and moved on to other cases, I still couldn't. 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:05.160 Hey going on? 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:05.960 You can hear me? 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:06.600 Yeah? 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:08.000 Okay, awesome? 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:08.560 How are you? 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:09.080 I just do? 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.920 I decided I still needed to give David one last 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.720 chance to explain to me what happened. Why was the 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.600 story he told me different than what he told the guys. 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:22.760 Was he lying? Why did he omit? 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:23.080 Joe? 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.440 Maybe he had a good explanation. Why did the guys 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:29.680 leave there feeling the way they did? 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.640 So you know, you could tell me your side of it, 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.280 like that's I want to hear your side of their great. 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:40.440 Things, Jiggins. My only problem was whenever they start to 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.480 ask me a question, I started to answer, as I'm 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.520 in the answer, then something I say or a secondary 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.960 question comes up, and then like the flow of the 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:57.040 conversation was kind of convoluted, I guess, because then I'm 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.880 you know, I'm just chasing my puts on the answered. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.200 David said, John and Danny were confusing him, asking one 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.159 question on top of another. But I've heard them do 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.000 dozens of interviews. You've heard it too. That's not their style. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:14.520 Their slow, methodical and even played dumb. As Danny likes 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:18.280 to say, Colombo the person to get the answers, badgering 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.200 is just not their style. And on top of that, 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:24.920 David had his attorney present. It was a legal visit. 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.880 If the guys had been steamrolling him, certainly she would 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.080 have stopped it. That's why she was there. I told 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.480 David he needed to find a better explanation for why 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.840 he couldn't answer questions because I wasn't buying it. So 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.160 he tried explaining why he had multiple versions for how 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.080 he wound up with Joe on the thirty first after 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.480 initially omitting him, and not. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:54.800 Be honest, I'd blended two different events. But then I guess, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.200 for lack of a better way of saying, in my defense, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:02.960 the time that they're questioning me of is before anything 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.439 ever happened. So to me, that's just another normal day 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.240 in my life. I don't know how else they explain it. 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:14.680 There was nothing exciting going on, nothing to be truly remembered. 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.760 That's just bluffing something out for months prior and trying 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.840 to play, trying to put it together. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.080 But remember, on April second, the day after Yvonne's body 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.040 was found, David was in the precinct with his attorney 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.080 for questioning. That's just two days after he would have 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.760 been with Joe. It's unlikely he just forgot about that, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.719 especially when he's being pressed for an alibi. Here's one 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:43.320 of our first conversations. 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:47.240 By the time they started talking to me, I'm going 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.920 in to try to help them figure this out, and 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.359 all of a sudden they're telling me, you know, help us, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:56.040 help you, and I don't need the help, don't you know. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:56.399 What I mean. 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:57.639 I'm here to help you. 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:01.160 And then whenever I saw that they were actually looking 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.560 at me, then that's whenever I had well, actually, my 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.240 grandfather contacted and attorney. 0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:10.600 The David knew immediately he was a suspect, and usually 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.680 that means you start scrambling for an alibi? What was 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:16.960 I doing when this person was killed? So they know 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.840 it wasn't me. Imagine someone ask you today, what were 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.440 you doing on some nondescript day two months ago? Of 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:27.119 course you'd struggle. But the first time David was asked 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.119 to recount his day was the day after Yvonne's body 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.159 was found. And if he was racking his brain for 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.240 an alibi what he was doing that day, surely being 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.200 with Joe and the cub would have popped into his head. Granted, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.480 David didn't answer those questions. At the time, his lawyer 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.800 shut down the interview, but he knew he needed to 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:52.639 get that information ready. He was suspect number one in 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.720 a murder case who at some point might have to 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.080 argue his innocence. 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.120 I mean, their big hang up it wasn't even the blending. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.639 It was that you were not going to say you 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.360 were with Joe that day at the Enoch And they said, 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.960 they asked you multiple, multiple times, what your. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:13.439 David like shipping there, because is what they kept asking 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.280 me is saying that I was there beforehand, And I said, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.760 I was never there beforehand because that was the first 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.200 time that I was ever there, because that's the first 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:22.480 time that I ever met Karen. 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.280 Because David went on to talk about something completely different, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:27.680 so I circled back. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.880 That's not the issue though. Their issue was they said, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.720 lay out your timeline of that day. That day, you know, 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.520 you were in the Enochs driveway at five o'clock whisked 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.440 the lion, And they said they asked you multiple times, 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:41.679 and they finally said, well, you. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.840 Were with Joe that day and you They did not 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:46.600 like that you were not going to tell them you 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:47.720 were with Joe that day. 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.480 See, I don't get that. Whenever they asked me what 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.320 I was doing by the time I left, I told 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.359 them I said, I don't know exactly what time that 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.840 I was there. Other than that I never said I 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:03.440 wasn't there. 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.359 But you did, you, David, That's what they're saying. You 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.359 didn't tell them that you kept omitting that information. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.960 I mean, why else was I there? Though that's nothing 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.000 given them. 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:25.000 It looks like you're trying to actively not put yourself 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.560 with the person who likely did this. 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.439 They said, they asked you multiple times, what else happened? 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:33.280 What else happened? 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:35.480 He starts circling again, and they. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:38.800 Said, it said, you didn't see Joe, And then you said, oh, yeah, I. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:44.159