1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Hi is see Fishman. I hope you're enjoying Death in 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: the Seat in Alliance. We've got a bonus episode coming 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: for you. It's not going to be this Tuesday. It's 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: gonna be the following Friday. Please look for it. Maggie 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: Freeling is going to be our guest. She's bringing along Danny, 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: one of the Private Eyes, and we're gonna go deep 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: both in the plot and on how Maggie feels, how 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: Maggie feels about feeling so publicly. 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: Okay, please tune in. 10 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 3: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance. 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 4: You know, I think there's a lot of questions that 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 4: have never been asked of him. Who was he really? 13 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 5: And I don't want him to try to bullshit us. 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 6: You know, when you leave an interview and you feel 15 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 6: like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting 16 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 6: for their life, there's a reason behind that. 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 4: And I said a point blank did that happen? 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: No? 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: And then he changed the subject pretty quickly. 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 7: Man, Then. 21 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 8: That's fine. 22 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 9: You know, we know memories on tape recorders. 23 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 7: Just tell us what you do remember. 24 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 3: And he left out he was not going to bring 25 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: up the fact that he was with Joe at the innings. 26 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, hello, is this mister Toole, Charlie Toole. I don't 27 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 4: know who's this. 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 3: This is death and Deceit and Alliance, a real time 29 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. 30 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 4: Hi, Banky, Hi. 31 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 10: How are you? 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 4: I'm good? How are you? Oh? 33 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: I wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me. 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 6: I told you, well you did so, I guess told you. 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: After we get home from our meeting with David Thorne, 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 3: I called one of the only other people who has 37 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: put as much time and effort into this as we did, 38 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 3: Dwayne Pullman, the award winning investigative TV journalist. If you remember, 39 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 3: I spoke to Dwayne at the beginning of the season 40 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: and he warned me this case would consume me and 41 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: it did. 42 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 10: Yeah. 43 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 11: So, you know, we've you know, been doing this for 44 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 11: about a year now, and uh have come to some 45 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 11: really interesting findings that I just wanted to let you 46 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 11: know about and just see if you had any insight 47 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 11: on anything. 48 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 3: I wanted to see if you could help process it 49 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 3: all or let us know if we were totally off base. 50 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 11: Well, you you know, you spent a very very good 51 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 11: amount of time on it and had some you know, 52 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 11: really interesting thoughts last time. 53 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 4: So it's been the being of my existence, trust me. 54 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 55 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 11: Well, I uh, I've had a full emotional meltdown over it. 56 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 9: So I guess you know. We talked to everybody we 57 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 9: could all the key. 58 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 3: I started telling Dwayne about everyone we spoke to, plenty 59 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: of whom didn't make it into the podcast. We also 60 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: put up three billboards directing people with information to an 61 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: anonymous tip line, and we tracked down every lead that 62 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: came from that. I told him about Chris Campbell that 63 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 3: we were always told he's a snitch and an informant, 64 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: but we didn't find that. We also talked about Rose, and. 65 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 9: Rose said too. 66 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 11: Rose sent a text that said, I'm not talking to you, 67 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 11: but I stand by what I said. 68 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 9: And that's just interesting. 69 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 4: I mean, so this sounds, yeah, I know, what is 70 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 4: starting to sound like. 71 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: The guys spoke to the Enochs who said they stood 72 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: by everything they said at trial. In fact, they told 73 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: the guys they're scared of Joe getting out because they're 74 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 3: convinced he's a murderer. These are the people who took 75 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: him in and cared for him. I told Dwayne how 76 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: once we were on the ground in Alliance, we realized 77 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: that it's nearly impossible for the tiny Alliance police force, 78 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: where a lead investigator had only worked one homicide case ever, 79 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: could have somehow mastermind a multi town cover up and 80 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 3: convinced all these people who didn't know each other to lie. Sure, 81 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: maybe people in Alliance were afraid of the police department, 82 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: but all these other people from different towns who didn't 83 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: know each other to all be coerced to lie against 84 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,559 Speaker 3: two kids for what. Dwayne agreed, it's not very Okham's razor. 85 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: And then I brought up sam Peg, who was really 86 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: the turning point for the guys. 87 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 11: She sticks by it too, and she's like, I don't 88 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 11: think Joe did it. I love him, I don't think 89 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 11: he did this, but he did tell me this. 90 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,799 Speaker 3: She still said that Joe told her before the murder 91 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 3: David wanted him to kill Yvaughan, and after the murder 92 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: that Joe said he did. 93 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 6: It get too contemporaneous then, and continuing that's interesting, that's 94 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 6: pretty important. 95 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 11: I mean, And after that we were like, all right, 96 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 11: it seems pretty clear Joe was involved. 97 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 9: Whether he blacked out and didn't. 98 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 11: Remember being his involvement and how made up stories, right, 99 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 11: it's just like he It's very unlikely that Joe was 100 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 11: not involved at this point. 101 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 9: So if we believe Joe. 102 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 11: Was involved, then we have to look at did he 103 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 11: do it on his own or did someone else. 104 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: In the Enox testimony, they say when Joe came to 105 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: live with them on March twenty seventh, he only had 106 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: fifty cents to his name. Karen Enoch testified to buying 107 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: Joe five dollars cigarettes because he couldn't afford anything. The 108 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 3: night of the murder March thirty first, when he got 109 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 3: dropped at the mall, Joe told the Enox he was 110 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: going to clean out David's grandpa's garage. David told me 111 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 3: that never happened. There was no garage cleanout. Plus, we 112 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: know that David was at shoot fighting and mostly accounted 113 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 3: for that night and none of it involved or left 114 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: time for garage cleaning. But in the days after the murder, 115 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: the Enox testified that Joe was waiting around for David 116 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: to give him money for a garage cleaning, which, according 117 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 3: to David, never happened. 118 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 11: All three Enochs say in the days after the murder, 119 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 11: Has David come by with my money? 120 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 9: Has David come by with my money? 121 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 11: The Enochs in their statements say he had fifty cents 122 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 11: before the murder, like he had no money. They were 123 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 11: buying him cigarettes. So somehow he comes up with this money, 124 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 11: which points to someone paid him for something. 125 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 6: Sure, and I remember that was absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, 126 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 6: that all makes sense. 127 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: A few days later, on April fifth, the Enoch said 128 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: that David stopped by their house. He and Joe talked 129 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: in the car and after that conversation, the Enoch said 130 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: Joe was ready to go shopping. He asked their daughter, 131 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: Summer Enoch, to take him. The next day, Summer took 132 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 3: Joe shopping. 133 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 8: We went to k there n he Kent and he 134 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 8: bet a pair of ringer blades and a pair of 135 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 8: work booth competer gonnas. Start working with my cousin Abby. 136 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 7: We went to school and after where he got. 137 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 8: Fax and he bet a pair of Nike shoes and 138 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 8: I want did I tell you about there? And he 139 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 8: wanted to hurry up and change into his new tennis. 140 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 7: Shoes and he took Kicks old tennis shoes back and 141 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 7: Ike paid that he had on and he put them 142 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 7: in the bag and he changed and put a new 143 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 7: parents back then, and he said he wanted to hurry 144 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 7: up and hur them shoes away. 145 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 8: And I said, manage to say why when we get home? 146 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 8: He said, no, I want to get rid of him. 147 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: Neck told that how much she take peached them? How 148 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 4: about you? 149 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: I want to say, is it a coincidence that this kid, 150 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: who didn't even have enough money to buy cigarettes was 151 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: talking for days about David coming by to pay him 152 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: for something David said never happened, and then after he 153 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: sees David suddenly spends around two hundred dollars shopping. I 154 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: don't know. 155 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 9: I literally I could not say, yes, David Thornton did this. 156 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 9: I don't think you know. 157 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 11: I would never want to ruin a man's chance at 158 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 11: freedom if he didn't do this. I think there's enough, 159 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 11: if there, but what is the percentage of that he 160 00:07:59,320 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 11: keeps getting? 161 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: As they say, it gets worser and worser. 162 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: And it's true David's own conversation with the guys made 163 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: things worse. When he was given a chance to speak 164 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: for himself without looking at timelines or having Sue explain 165 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 3: things couldn't do it. It's not up for debate whether 166 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 3: he was with Joe the day of the murder. The 167 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 3: Enochs are credible. Yet David, he. 168 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 11: Fully removed Joe from that day. He has built a 169 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 11: counter narrative and every part of his day removes Joe. 170 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 11: And so they finally circle back after letting him talk 171 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 11: and whatever and go. But David, we know you're with 172 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 11: Joe at five o'clock. 173 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: At the Nuchs. 174 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 9: Oh yeah, you know what, I guess. I did run 175 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 9: into him. I was buying a soda. 176 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 4: It's valuable information. A lot of this is. 177 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 6: Freaking good on you, man. Here's what we're paying attention to. 178 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 6: And this is where the pis are really crucial. Here 179 00:08:54,280 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 6: is you look for continuity, and you look for clarity, 180 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 6: and you look for a lack of obfuscation and stuff 181 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 6: like that, all the stuff that you know we do intuitively. 182 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 6: He's failing every measure. 183 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 4: Isn't he. 184 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: I told Dwayne how David's explanation of when he knew 185 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: Yvonne was selling sex kept shifting to me. He said 186 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: he didn't know until after she died. But David told 187 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 3: the guys he knew when he was taking her to 188 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 3: those conventions. What Yvonne was doing. I told Dwayne how 189 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 3: even when David did acknowledge that he saw Joe the 190 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: day of the murder, the story was different than what 191 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: it had been in the past. I also told him 192 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: about Angie's allegations and the incidents of violence David did 193 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 3: not voluntarily divulge, and that he minimized. 194 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 4: It's excellent work there, you did. 195 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 5: It's just. 196 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 10: It's just really shook me. 197 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 4: You know, Like, but truth is what truth is, isn't it. 198 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 6: I mean, that's the whole job here. If Chris Campbell 199 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 6: stands by the story, Sam stands by the story, do 200 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 6: you have contemporaneous and continuing verification and then we have 201 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 6: a hidden domestic violence situation which was violent? Holy shit? 202 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 6: So this sounds Sam, you know, I know what it's 203 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 6: starting to sound like. 204 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 3: You can hear the sadness in Duyne's voice too, Maggie. 205 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 6: Let me be clear on it. You know, I've always 206 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 6: tied my belief in this that at some point, some way, 207 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 6: the truth will reveal itself. And I've tried and tried 208 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 6: and tried, and I'm pretty good at what I do 209 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 6: and couldn't do this. So this has haunted me I 210 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 6: told you that, you know, I'm thankful that you're doing 211 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 6: what you're doing, especially on the level God. I mean, 212 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 6: my loyalty is to truth, it's not to individuals. The time, 213 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 6: given all the input and given all of the the 214 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 6: points of reference, I concentrated on an ft UP murder 215 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 6: scene and an ft UP trial. 216 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: That was the right call, And. 217 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 3: I agree with Duyne here. That's why we were all 218 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 3: drawn to this case in the first place. This was 219 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: a sloppy investigation conducted at a botched crime scene by 220 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 3: inexperienced and frankly problematic officers, followed by a trial that 221 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 3: left room for a lot of reasonable doubt. And in 222 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: a court of law, people cannot be convicted if there 223 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: is reasonable doubt. 224 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 6: But you know, we were inconclusive on whether he did it. 225 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 6: There was enough doubt about it, obviously, But the point is, 226 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 6: you know, we took some runs at it and there 227 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 6: were big questions. 228 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: For example, we still don't know who Yvonne's neighbor George 229 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: Hale saw leaving her house the morning after the murder, 230 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: and there's still the Brady violation. The prosecution withheld George 231 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: Hale's statement from David's defense team though the guys feel 232 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 3: sure that the person George Hale saw was likely not 233 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 3: the killer. As I've said before, her house was highly 234 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 3: trafficked enough that a person could have been totally separate 235 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 3: from the murder. Could have been a friend who was 236 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 3: supposed to stop by in the morning for a coffee, 237 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: stumbled on her dead body and fled. Or maybe it 238 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 3: was an officer with a scheduled sex appointment who preemptively 239 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: cleaned up any evidence of having had relations with her, 240 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 3: not to cover up her murder necessarily, but maybe just 241 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 3: to save his job. 242 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 4: We raised the. 243 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 6: Questions, they're getting answered, at least in part thanks to 244 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 6: your work. I mean, do I feel itchy about it? 245 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 6: I feel itchy about all parts of this. Yeah, and 246 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 6: I always have from the minute I started. 247 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 4: Yeah, Maggie, I think you know this. 248 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 6: I'm not like, I'm just supporting. The truth is the truth, 249 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 6: whether we are comfortable with it or not, that's what 250 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 6: it is. And if things don't add up, they don't 251 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 6: add up. And sorry, that's one of those indications. I mean, he, 252 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 6: on all appearances, seems to be a nice, kind of 253 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,839 Speaker 6: all American boy. Does any now and man you know 254 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 6: or an older man but you know, it's not about 255 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 6: appearances and it's not about charm. It's about the truth. 256 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 6: But you know, as I absorb it, all I really 257 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 6: care about is the closure of it all. And I mean, 258 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 6: you know, I can't imagine have you can't Sue yet? 259 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 3: And what was her reaction at this point? The answer 260 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: was yes, Sue, David's wife, an advocate, had been told, 261 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 3: but not by me. After everything we found or hadn't found, 262 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: John and Danny decided they could not take David's case. Remember, 263 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: all of this was preliminary work to see if there 264 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: was enough meat to David's claim of innocence to invest 265 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: more time and money into the case. And after a 266 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 3: year of research, hundreds of hours, invested five trips to Ohio, 267 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 3: two separate prison interviews, tip lines, billboards, we found absolutely 268 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence, and 269 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: what we did find was more damning than helpful. The 270 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: guys wrote David and Joe explaining their position and had 271 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: a long phone call with Sue explaining everything they told her. 272 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: Anytime she wanted to call or ask questions, they'd be there. 273 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: I told her the same thing, and I was for 274 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: a while up until this episode when she stopped speaking 275 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 3: to me. No one expects Sue, who invested most of 276 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 3: her life, including years of marriage, and who went nearly 277 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 3: bankrupt trying to help her husband, to accept our conclusion. 278 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: It's clear she's frustrated with the outcome and looking for 279 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: flaws in our investigation, saying we didn't do enough and 280 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: didn't follow the new leads we found. But truthfully, the 281 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 3: guys didn't see a reason to start going down that 282 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 3: road when nothing pointed us away from Joe. That's why 283 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: they did this investigation to see if it was worth it. Still, 284 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: I can't blame Sue. This isn't just another investigation for her. 285 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: It's her life, and all I can say is that 286 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 3: I get it, and if she ever reaches a point 287 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: where she wants to talk it over, I'll be here. 288 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: To be clear, John and Danny are not labeling David 289 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 3: Thorn a killer, and neither am I. Any case adopted 290 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 3: by any innocence project has to have evidence, something new, 291 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: something missed to help clear the person convicted. We can't 292 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 3: find that in this case. So while the guys packed 293 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: it up and moved on to other cases, I still couldn't. 294 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: Hey going on? 295 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 10: You can hear me? 296 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? 297 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 10: Okay, awesome? 298 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 9: How are you? 299 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 8: I just do? 300 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 3: I decided I still needed to give David one last 301 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 3: chance to explain to me what happened. Why was the 302 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: story he told me different than what he told the guys. 303 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: Was he lying? Why did he omit? 304 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: Joe? 305 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: Maybe he had a good explanation. Why did the guys 306 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: leave there feeling the way they did? 307 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 5: So you know, you could tell me your side of it, 308 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 5: like that's I want to hear your side of their great. 309 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: Things, Jiggins. My only problem was whenever they start to 310 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: ask me a question, I started to answer, as I'm 311 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: in the answer, then something I say or a secondary 312 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: question comes up, and then like the flow of the 313 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: conversation was kind of convoluted, I guess, because then I'm 314 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: you know, I'm just chasing my puts on the answered. 315 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: David said, John and Danny were confusing him, asking one 316 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 3: question on top of another. But I've heard them do 317 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: dozens of interviews. You've heard it too. That's not their style. 318 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 3: Their slow, methodical and even played dumb. As Danny likes 319 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: to say, Colombo the person to get the answers, badgering 320 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 3: is just not their style. And on top of that, 321 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 3: David had his attorney present. It was a legal visit. 322 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 3: If the guys had been steamrolling him, certainly she would 323 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: have stopped it. That's why she was there. I told 324 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: David he needed to find a better explanation for why 325 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: he couldn't answer questions because I wasn't buying it. So 326 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 3: he tried explaining why he had multiple versions for how 327 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 3: he wound up with Joe on the thirty first after 328 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: initially omitting him, and not. 329 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 2: Be honest, I'd blended two different events. But then I guess, 330 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 2: for lack of a better way of saying, in my defense, 331 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: the time that they're questioning me of is before anything 332 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 2: ever happened. So to me, that's just another normal day 333 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: in my life. I don't know how else they explain it. 334 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: There was nothing exciting going on, nothing to be truly remembered. 335 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: That's just bluffing something out for months prior and trying 336 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: to play, trying to put it together. 337 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: But remember, on April second, the day after Yvonne's body 338 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: was found, David was in the precinct with his attorney 339 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 3: for questioning. That's just two days after he would have 340 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 3: been with Joe. It's unlikely he just forgot about that, 341 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 3: especially when he's being pressed for an alibi. Here's one 342 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: of our first conversations. 343 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 12: By the time they started talking to me, I'm going 344 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 12: in to try to help them figure this out, and 345 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 12: all of a sudden they're telling me, you know, help us, 346 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 12: help you, and I don't need the help, don't you know. 347 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 4: What I mean. 348 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 2: I'm here to help you. 349 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 12: And then whenever I saw that they were actually looking 350 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 12: at me, then that's whenever I had well, actually, my 351 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 12: grandfather contacted and attorney. 352 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: The David knew immediately he was a suspect, and usually 353 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: that means you start scrambling for an alibi? What was 354 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: I doing when this person was killed? So they know 355 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 3: it wasn't me. Imagine someone ask you today, what were 356 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 3: you doing on some nondescript day two months ago? Of 357 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 3: course you'd struggle. But the first time David was asked 358 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 3: to recount his day was the day after Yvonne's body 359 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 3: was found. And if he was racking his brain for 360 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: an alibi what he was doing that day, surely being 361 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 3: with Joe and the cub would have popped into his head. Granted, 362 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: David didn't answer those questions. At the time, his lawyer 363 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: shut down the interview, but he knew he needed to 364 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 3: get that information ready. He was suspect number one in 365 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: a murder case who at some point might have to 366 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: argue his innocence. 367 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 10: I mean, their big hang up it wasn't even the blending. 368 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 5: It was that you were not going to say you 369 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 5: were with Joe that day at the Enoch And they said, 370 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 5: they asked you multiple, multiple times, what your. 371 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: David like shipping there, because is what they kept asking 372 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: me is saying that I was there beforehand, And I said, 373 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: I was never there beforehand because that was the first 374 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: time that I was ever there, because that's the first 375 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: time that I ever met Karen. 376 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 3: Because David went on to talk about something completely different, 377 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 3: so I circled back. 378 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 5: That's not the issue though. Their issue was they said, 379 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 5: lay out your timeline of that day. That day, you know, 380 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 5: you were in the Enochs driveway at five o'clock whisked 381 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 5: the lion, And they said they asked you multiple times, 382 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 5: and they finally said, well, you. 383 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 10: Were with Joe that day and you They did not 384 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 10: like that you were not going to tell them you 385 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 10: were with Joe that day. 386 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 2: See, I don't get that. Whenever they asked me what 387 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: I was doing by the time I left, I told 388 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 2: them I said, I don't know exactly what time that 389 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 2: I was there. Other than that I never said I 390 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: wasn't there. 391 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 10: But you did, you, David, That's what they're saying. You 392 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 10: didn't tell them that you kept omitting that information. 393 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: I mean, why else was I there? Though that's nothing 394 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: given them. 395 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 5: It looks like you're trying to actively not put yourself 396 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 5: with the person who likely did this. 397 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 10: They said, they asked you multiple times, what else happened? 398 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 10: What else happened? 399 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 3: He starts circling again, and they. 400 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 10: Said, it said, you didn't see Joe, And then you said, oh, yeah, I. 401 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 2: Saw Joe because on that one they were asking me 402 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: about the money from UH summer, and I said I 403 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 2: didn't give any money to him whenever I saw him. 404 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: And they said, so you saw him, and I said yeah. 405 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: But I don't think at the time that they're saying 406 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: because that part I don't recall. You know, this one 407 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 2: piffic day, I think. But and then he asked me 408 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 2: going back to the thing, So it wasn't that I 409 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: was denying being there, because that's the only reason I 410 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 2: was there because I happened right, reason to be at 411 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: the Enochs other than Joe, because I don't know there 412 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: are people from Adam. 413 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 10: Right, which yeah, exactly. 414 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 5: I mean, that was just their hang up that you 415 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 5: weren't going to tell them that you were there even 416 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 5: though they knew you were there. 417 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: I didn't deny it, that's just it. I didn't. I 418 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: still don't understand. 419 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 5: How, but that's how they felt. The whole conversation was, 420 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 5: is you weren't giving information. They had to pull information 421 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 5: out of you, is how they felt. 422 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I don't know what it is that you 423 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: want me to say to you unless you asked me 424 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: the question. 425 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 5: The timeline of your day? They said, what is the 426 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 5: timeline of your day? You know you were at the Enochs. 427 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 5: Why didn't you put that in your timeline? 428 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: It wasn't my timeline. 429 00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 10: They said, you did not tell them you were with 430 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 10: when you were laying out the timeline. 431 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: And then finally, after all the circling, I. 432 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 2: Don't know that I have to tell them that I'm 433 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 2: standing there with him because that's the only reason that 434 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 2: I'm there. 435 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 10: But you do, David, You have to tell them everything. 436 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 5: They asked you to tell them everything, and that's their 437 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 5: problem is you didn't tell them anything. 438 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 10: They said. They left that conversation feeling like they told 439 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 10: you more than you told them. 440 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I'm sorry that they feel 441 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: that way, but I was just trying to answer the 442 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: questions as they came, and that was that. 443 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 3: David said he didn't tell them he was in the 444 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 3: Enochs driveway with Joe just hours before Yvonne was killed 445 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 3: as part of the timeline. They asked him to lay 446 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 3: out because he didn't know he had to. My hope 447 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 3: of David fighting for his innocence was out the window. 448 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 10: Do you want to tell your side of the Angie story? 449 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 3: David denied the allegations Angie made and gave an explanation 450 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: for why, according to him, she made it all up. 451 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: He said that she had started dating someone new her 452 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: now husband. 453 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if he found out or when he 454 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: found out that they were already engaged, and she paid 455 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: for a hotel on Ralph five for us to go 456 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 2: to whenever they were dating. 457 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 3: He said that the reason Angie lied about it all 458 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 3: is because her now husband told her to because he 459 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 3: was pissed she cheated on him with David years earlier. 460 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 3: According to David, this is why she made up multiple 461 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: incidents of abuse. However, David did admit to something. He 462 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 3: admitted to shooting out the car tires while Angie was 463 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: in the car, like she claimed. Well, Angie said it 464 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 3: was four tires. David said, actually it was just one. 465 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 3: But let me repeat. He admitted to shooting at a 466 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 3: car that a woman his girlfriend was sitting in. 467 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 2: But she was leaving in my car, and I mean, 468 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 2: after all, it was my car. 469 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 3: And then I asked David why his story about the 470 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 3: sex work changed, So I. 471 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 5: Guess one of my questions though, you specifically told me, 472 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 5: but I will send you the tape that you had 473 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 5: no idea why she was going to conventions and when 474 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 5: you told the guys, you told the guys that you 475 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 5: knew why she was going and you just had to 476 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 5: put it out of your mind. 477 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: That was afterwards. Her and I went together twice when 478 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: I was taking her for the conventions and everything, I 479 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: had no idea when her and I got back together 480 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 2: after Brandon is when she came queen. 481 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 10: Okay, they said it was very clear that you said 482 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 10: no I told them. 483 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: Why you were because they asked me what it was 484 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: like for me being with her on the second time around. 485 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 2: I had to put that out of my mind because 486 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: that was part of whether her and I were really 487 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 2: getting get together and be together the second time around. 488 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 2: That's where we aired out all of our dirty laundryf 489 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 2: with each other. But then whenever they asked me if 490 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 2: I knew, yeah, I knew not whenever we were together 491 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: the first time, but I knew the second time. 492 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: So if this is confusing for you, it's confusing for 493 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: me too. I've never been able to get a straight 494 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 3: answer on when he knew about the conversations and why 495 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 3: he told the guys he knew exactly why he was 496 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 3: dropping her off, and why he told me he had 497 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 3: no idea. David had written a letter to me at 498 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 3: the end of August saying, had I known Yvonne was 499 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 3: working conventions, then yes, I would have tried to get custody. 500 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 3: I'd have led with that, no questions asked. Who would 501 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 3: subject their child to a revolving door of unknown people 502 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 3: and access And this is just incredible because David did know. 503 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: Now I'm thinking if the police got this right, maybe 504 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 3: the motive wasn't about money or paying Yvonne child support. 505 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 3: Maybe it was that David did not want his son 506 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: to be in that kind of environment. Maybe David had 507 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 3: a decent, I guess noble motive. David's grandfather said David 508 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 3: wanted custody in his police interview after April seventh, but 509 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 3: added that David couldn't prove Yvonne an unfit mother because 510 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 3: the kids were always clean and the house was clean. 511 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 3: So was David just desperate enough to get custody of 512 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: Brandon that he had Yvonne killed. The more we dug, 513 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: the more we found out that David seemed to have 514 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 3: minimized or omitted some pretty key details. That he was 515 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 3: with Joe the day Yvonne died, that he'd been violent 516 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: or alleged to be violent towards women in the past, 517 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 3: that he knew about Yvonne's sex work. And at first 518 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 3: all of this may seem innocuous, but when you start 519 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 3: piecing it together, it's not. Key stories fit together. The 520 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 3: police were not sophisticated enough to mastermind a cover up. 521 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: John Danny and I discussed this. 522 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes the bubblin idiots get it right. 523 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 4: By axit well, a broken clock is right twice a day. 524 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 3: It seems they formed their theory that David Thorn recruited 525 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: someone to Killy Vaughan, and then looked for evidence to 526 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 3: support the theory. We know the police were getting desperate 527 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 3: from the psychic interview. Eventually the case fell right in 528 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 3: their lap, starting with Rose. If her building manager hadn't 529 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 3: called the police to say Rose knew something, the police 530 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: may never have known about Joe. After that, the pieces 531 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 3: all fell into place. Rose and Chris told the police 532 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 3: about Joe, telling them he was in town to murder 533 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: a girl. Joe told the police about Sam Peg, his 534 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 3: best friend. Sam told the police that Joe was telling 535 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: her months ahead of time about this. The Enuchs confirmed 536 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: Joe had no money until he saw David. David's alibi 537 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: had holes in it. It's all right there, But yet 538 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 3: all of us have been drawn to the case because 539 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: the arrests came from a notoriously corrupt department with detectives 540 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 3: that had less than stellar reputations, and a botched crime 541 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 3: scene and Brady violations, and multiple people who could have 542 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: done this who were never looked into, and all of 543 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: this corroborated by their own police records. The trial left 544 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 3: what I would certainly consider reasonable doubt. There was no 545 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: conclusive physical evidence linking Joe to the scene. Had the 546 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: jurors heard from George Hale, the neighbor who saw an 547 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: unknown man leave Yvonne's house after she was dead, perhaps 548 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: the verdict would have been different. But they didn't. They 549 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: didn't know about Hale because the prosecution didn't tell them, 550 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 3: despite being obligated to disclose information like that. If David's 551 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: team had called an expert to refute the state's evidence, 552 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: maybe we wouldn't be here. But none of that happened. 553 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: And if there's one thing I can say for sure 554 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: about this case, it's that David Thorne did not get 555 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 3: a fair trial, and there are still lingering questions we 556 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 3: may never get answers to the crime scene certainly does 557 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 3: not match Joe's statement, and neither does a knife, which remember, 558 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 3: didn't have any blood on it. Why has Joe's story 559 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 3: changed so many times? It's possible today he's confused by 560 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: how many people have questioned him, asked him different versions, 561 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 3: told him different stories. He doesn't know what's true anymore. 562 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 3: But I do know that Joe believes He is the 563 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 3: kind caring person we heard so much about who was 564 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: severely abused and just wanted someone to love him, and 565 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 3: in this case, David was that someone. I think Joe 566 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 3: did go there with the folding knife, the only folding 567 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: knife of that kind bought that year on March thirty first, 568 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, at the exact time Joe said he 569 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 3: bought it, but after Chris Campbell made fun of him 570 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 3: and said, who are you going to kill with that? 571 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 3: He ditched it and used the kitchen knife. That's why 572 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 3: there was no blood on the folding knife, and that's 573 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 3: why a kitchen knife was missing, because Joe used it 574 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 3: for me. That's a reasonable explanation for some of the 575 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 3: lingering questions. Others may just never be answered. And so 576 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: we have no new evidence pointing to innocence. And once 577 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 3: someone is convicted by a jury, it's nearly impossible to 578 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: get out without that new evidence. So there was nowhere 579 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 3: left for us to go after the investigation. The billboards 580 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: expired and came down, and the tip line was shut off. 581 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 3: I have recovered since twenty twenty one. After losing trust 582 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: in myself, I dusted off my shame, picked up my 583 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 3: head and kept going at what I know. I'm good 584 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 3: at finding the truth and telling stories. I went on 585 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 3: to win a Pulitzer for my reporting on mandatory minimums 586 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 3: and juvenile lifers in the podcast Suave in twenty twenty two. 587 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 3: Since then, I've learned about and poured my heart and 588 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 3: soul into reporting on countless innocent people in prison and 589 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: telling their stories. A conservative estimate is that there are 590 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 3: more than twenty thousand innocent people in prison, but experts 591 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: say numbers are more likely in the hundreds of thousands. 592 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 3: One of those people. I recently released a new investigation 593 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: on the first since Yvonne's, called Graves County, where not 594 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: only do I get it right, but much of my 595 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: reporting and series was inspired by processing the aftermath of 596 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: getting it wrong. I found a case where a journalist 597 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: got it wrong like I did, yet he refuses to 598 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: speak to me or acknowledge his mistakes or worse. I 599 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 3: think it's crucial to talk about our fallibilities as journalists. 600 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: Not only does it keep us honest, but it keeps 601 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 3: us humble and human. And ultimately, at the end of 602 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 3: all this, there was a woman, a mother, a friend, 603 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: a daughter who was brutally murdered, and her family has 604 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 3: had to live with that for going on three decades, 605 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 3: and a police department who did them no justice, allowing 606 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: countless people to spend time and resources looking into what 607 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 3: was very likely correct, but so poorly investigated it left 608 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: too many questions for confidence. We went into this in 609 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: part to get justice for Yvonne Lane and her family. 610 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: They deserve to know the truth, and now I think 611 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: the truth was there. The whole time, I believed this 612 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 3: was very very likely a wrongful conviction. So did many others, 613 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: meaning we also believed that there was someone else out 614 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 3: there getting away with Yvonne's murder. That's why I recruited 615 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 3: investigators to take a look. But now we believe that 616 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 3: broken clock was right, and Yvonne's friends and family finally 617 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 3: deserve to have their mother, daughter, and loved one rest 618 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 3: in peace. If the police had just done their job, 619 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 3: if they hadn't left so much room for doubt, I 620 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 3: believe Yvonne's family would not have had the worst moment 621 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 3: of their lives brought up countless times for nearly three decades, 622 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 3: and I want to repeat discussions about whether Yvonne was 623 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 3: or was not a sex worker or a dancer, or 624 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 3: use drugs are important to the case, but beyond that, 625 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. Her life was worth more than a 626 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 3: pair of Nikke shoes and some roller blades, regardless of 627 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: what choices she made in her life and her children. 628 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 3: I hope at least that Evonne's five boys can conclude 629 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: what they want and remember her how they want. Tony, Vinnie, Brandon, 630 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 3: Trenton and Preston deserve that. 631 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 9: If you could correct everything that's been said about her. 632 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 3: What do you want people to know? 633 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 4: I think that's the thing what I did for from 634 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 4: a lot of people. Honestly, I don't I really know 635 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 4: you the damn what they think about her? I know 636 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 4: how I feeled about her. Why do I kill what 637 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 4: anyone else thinks? 638 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 6: Whether she slept the people, dnsely with people, whether she 639 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 6: did drugs andrew drugs. 640 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 4: Why do I kill anyone? Thanks for me? 641 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: Well, what do you think about her? 642 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 4: I loved her, she was crazy, A loved her. 643 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 3: Death and deceit In The Alliance is produced and reported 644 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. 645 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 3: Aaron Case is our legal researcher, our executive producer is 646 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 3: Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. 647 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 3: Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.