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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Jonathan Hammond is a teacher, energy healer, shamantic practitioner, and

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Speaker 2: spiritual counselor. A graduate of Harvard University. In the University

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Speaker 2: of Michigan, he is certified Master Teacher in Shamatic as

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Speaker 2: well as the Advanced Graduate Study Advisors for the Shamanic

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Speaker 2: Reiki Worldwide. Teaches classes in Shamanism, energy healing, spirituality, and

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Speaker 2: huna at the Omega Institute and around the world. And

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Speaker 2: his book is called Tonight that We're talking about the

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Speaker 2: Shaman's Mind. Jonathan, welcome to the program.

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Speaker 3: Aloha George, It's nice to be with you. Aloha from Maui.

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Speaker 1: You too, my friend.

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Speaker 2: Were you at the University of Michigan when Bo scham

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Speaker 2: Beckler was the coach?

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Speaker 3: I you know what, I had that name ringed about

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Speaker 3: from a long time ago. But yeah, yeah, I believe

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Speaker 3: I w was.

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Speaker 2: He was one of those great football coaches. It's a

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Speaker 2: great university in ann Arbor's was a wonderful town in

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Speaker 2: Detroit's my hometown.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm from mont Clemmons. Originally, Yeah, I'm a Michigan boy.

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Speaker 1: I'm a Median boy.

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Speaker 2: You get back there, any family.

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Speaker 3: No, everyone moved. Everyone moved, so I haven't been back.

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Speaker 3: Once I left in h and then went to school

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Speaker 3: in Boston and then had a life in New York City.

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Speaker 3: Everyone has since moved, so I haven't been back. It's

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Speaker 3: been years now.

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Speaker 2: My MoMA's sister are still about there. She's going to

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Speaker 2: be ninety five next month. Jonathan, Oh my god, it's amazing,

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Speaker 2: it really, it really is. Tell us about yourself. How'd

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Speaker 2: you get involved in shamanistic work.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was years ago. I was an actor in

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Speaker 3: New York. I was a Broadway actor. And I thought

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Speaker 3: that I had that I was diving into spirituality just

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Speaker 3: to kind of traverse the difficulties of show business, because

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Speaker 3: it was, you know, as as you know, I think

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Speaker 3: you have a you've been around show business as well,

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Speaker 3: it's just a very tough field. And so it was

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Speaker 3: just and spirituality just felt like something that I needed

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Speaker 3: to to just support. And then it just ended up

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Speaker 3: taking up bigger and bigger space in my life. And

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Speaker 3: and I had sort of the terrifying realization at a

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Speaker 3: certain point in my late thirties that that I'm going

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Speaker 3: to leave what was a kind of successful career behind

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Speaker 3: and go into healing work full time. And shamanisn't just

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Speaker 3: spoke to me, because it's it's a very dropped in,

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Speaker 3: dropped in spirituality. It's very you know, it's very connected

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Speaker 3: to the material world, to our material live. I also

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Speaker 3: am a huge fan of nature, and and I've had

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Speaker 3: really amazing experiences in nature, even even peak experiences in nature,

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Speaker 3: and so shamanism really became became my path. The earth

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Speaker 3: based traditions really became my path, rather than something formally

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Speaker 3: religious or even a religious system. It's really about tuning

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Speaker 3: into how we can all individually be more natural, how

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Speaker 3: we can be more like, uh, the way the same

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Speaker 3: way in which the trees and the plants and the

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Speaker 3: animals are are unapologetically themselves. I think we all have

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Speaker 3: healing to do to find that instinctual essence in us

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Speaker 3: that that will ultimately be the way in which we

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Speaker 3: are unapologetically ourselves. And I think that's the uh, that's

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Speaker 3: the journey of of shamanism. And I think it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's good medicine for today, because today is so about

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Speaker 3: pulling out of yourself and into someone else's rules and

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Speaker 3: someone else's paradigm and someone else's story rather than your own.

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Speaker 3: So it's about coming back to something of the earth

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Speaker 3: and of ourselves that's instinctual and are true.

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Speaker 2: At did you teach yourself these shamanic principles or did

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Speaker 2: some shaman teach you?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: No. I worked with shamans on four different continents to

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Speaker 3: South America, Mexico, Latin America state side as well. There's

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Speaker 3: some wonderful American shamanic teachers. And then I really I

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Speaker 3: found myself. I kept coming to Hawaii and it was

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Speaker 3: just very drawn here and then found the Hawaiian shamanic

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Speaker 3: tradition which is called Huna, which I'm sure we'll talk

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Speaker 3: about tonight, and that was that was really eye opening

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Speaker 3: for me. The Hawaiians. I'm also in addition to being

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Speaker 3: interested in shamanism, I'm very I'm very connected psychology. I

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Speaker 3: would say that's that's what I do for a living.

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Speaker 3: I'm a spiritual psychologist, and the Hawaiian tradition is actually

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Speaker 3: the Hawaiian shamanic tradition is actually quite psychological. That's the

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Speaker 3: reason why I called my book about the Hawaiian Shamani tradition,

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Speaker 3: The Shaman's Mind, because it is about a tuning about

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Speaker 3: these these Hawaiian ideas that are very simple, but at

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Speaker 3: tuning to them with discipline and uh and letting your

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Speaker 3: own version of a shaman's mind uh come out of you.

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Speaker 3: So so I found that it helped me understand how

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Speaker 3: shamans think, and that came from Hawaii, and I ended

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Speaker 3: up so called that it was time for me to

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Speaker 3: move here. So I've I've been living on Maui for

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Speaker 3: about four years.

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Speaker 2: How is Maui since the fires?

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Speaker 3: It was it was really harrowing. I live about about

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Speaker 3: a thirty minute drive from Mahina.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: It was very sad. The hardest part for me as

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Speaker 3: someone who is so it was so passionate about ecology.

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Speaker 3: What was hard for me was that afterward I was

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Speaker 3: so disheartened to not hear conversations about I heard lots

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Speaker 3: of lots of conspiracy theory conversations that this was you know,

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Speaker 3: Chinese laser beams and aliens and and government conspiracies. But

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Speaker 3: I wasn't hearing much talk about fire and air and

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Speaker 3: human error diverting water away from Lahina Leahina used to

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Speaker 3: be was considered the venice of Hawaii. It was there

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Speaker 3: were all these natural fresh water springs and waterways, and

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Speaker 3: over one hundred years ago they diverted a lot of

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Speaker 3: that water away for to to to grow sugarcane. And

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Speaker 3: the town was just very dry, and it's an old town,

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Speaker 3: and so it was like this little uh you know,

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Speaker 3: old country kinder box.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then there were uncharacteristic winds that uh that uh

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Speaker 3: that from a from a hurricane over six hundred miles away,

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Speaker 3: that were so strong here that that with you know,

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Speaker 3: once there's a spark. It was like, I have a

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Speaker 3: firefighter acquaintance, and he told me that, imagine a fifty

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Speaker 3: foot horizontal flame and then winds so strong that it

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Speaker 3: takes that horizontal flame and brings it vertical plant frame

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Speaker 3: and brings it horizontal and pushes it. So it was

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Speaker 3: just like so, I mean, the just the it was

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Speaker 3: just a perfect storm, quite literally. And and and the

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Speaker 3: one thing that I just didn't get that didn't have

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Speaker 3: a lot of airplay except from the native Hawaiians who

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Speaker 3: kept asking, who kept asking about ecological policy. I'm in

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Speaker 3: a very delicate ecosystem. I lived thirty seconds from the

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Speaker 3: ocean and and when when as the earth moves out

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Speaker 3: of balance, these kind of extreme situations present themselves and uh,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's a really important conversation. So when

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Speaker 3: it happened, you know, I kind of had a moment

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Speaker 3: of you know, sort of existential dread and and then

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Speaker 3: I just thought, you know, this is what you do

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Speaker 3: for a living, Jonathan, You're here, it's you know, this

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Speaker 3: the ecological crisis is is touching you and and it

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Speaker 3: really uh it focused me in my work even and

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Speaker 3: uh and it was something that was that was really

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Speaker 3: motivating for me. So it's still hard. There's still there's

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Speaker 3: still a lot of people in hotels and vacation rentals

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Speaker 3: or people who've left the island, and uh they are rebuilding.

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Speaker 3: There is definitely a sense that fact happening. But uh

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Speaker 3: uh extreme weather is is is a thing and and

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Speaker 3: I think we we have to we have to address it.

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Speaker 3: And again that's so much about my call to uh

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Speaker 3: call to the earth based spiritual tradition, because we are

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Speaker 3: revering quite literally, they are rather than just treating her

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Speaker 3: as a storehouse for uh for what we need and

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Speaker 3: uh that we are we're so to be in relationship

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Speaker 3: with her, not not just she's not she's not here

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Speaker 3: just for us. We're in it. We're in it with her.

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Speaker 1: There are.

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Speaker 3: Everything in nature is an agent, agentive being, just like

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Speaker 3: we are. And uh and we have to recognize that.

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Speaker 3: We have to recognize that, uh, that that we are

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Speaker 3: out of balance. Even even I'm doing a lot of

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Speaker 3: research for my for my next book, in my next class,

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Speaker 3: and there's so much ecological evidence about pandemic happening because

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Speaker 3: of not solely, but but pandemics happening because of ecological

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Speaker 3: disturbances that that you know, when you when you move

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Speaker 3: certain animals out of their out of there, you know

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Speaker 3: they're there.

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Speaker 2: Normal the environment, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah. So it's it's hard,

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Speaker 3: but it's hard, but it's still it's still MAUI still paradise.

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Speaker 3: It's just she's just a little hurt, but she's gonna

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Speaker 3: make it.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you're okay. When I was younger and I

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Speaker 2: heard the word shaman, I would always think of a

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Speaker 2: medicine man. But it's much more than that, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, shaman is is is a healer, a healer that

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Speaker 3: holds the community and holds the community in relationship to nature.

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Speaker 3: Shaman is a healer of relationships, the relationship we have

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Speaker 3: between our mind and our body, the relationship we have

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Speaker 3: between ourselves and others, the relationships between others and others,

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Speaker 3: and the relationships between everyone and the planet. And so

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Speaker 3: and usually there was in indigenous cultures, someone was identified.

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Speaker 3: It's a hard path because usually identified through either illness

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Speaker 3: or some sort of trauma. That's usually how one one

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Speaker 3: one became a shaman. I consider myself a shamanic tactician

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Speaker 3: or I'm certainly not not a shaman. And I think

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Speaker 3: that word is uh. I can leave that alone, and

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Speaker 3: because I think it's culturally loaded, but it's it's and

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Speaker 3: it's also it's also someone who is who recognizes that

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Speaker 3: there is a spiritual component two healings that uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: I I often I often say that if you break

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Speaker 3: your arm, you go to the doctor and they set

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Speaker 3: your arm. If you break your arm, you go to

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Speaker 3: the shaman and you ask the question why did I

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Speaker 3: break my arm? And I think, uh, And so it's

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Speaker 3: so the shaman is is all is about physical healing,

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Speaker 3: but also the metaphysical aspects. The energetic aspect, even that

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Speaker 3: the hidden aspect, the unconscious aspects of of of what

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Speaker 3: needs attention in us.

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Speaker 2: Who taught the shamans John, or do they teach themselves?

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Speaker 3: Uh? The nature? And in fact, in fact, uh, there's

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Speaker 3: research that you know, there's some called the shamanic journey.

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Speaker 3: And the shamanic journey is where where it's actually very

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Speaker 3: simple and easy to do. We actually all kind of

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Speaker 3: did it as children. But it's where you attune your

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Speaker 3: mind with let's say, an animal or or a plant

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Speaker 3: or something like that, and you and you begin a

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Speaker 3: kind of dream like conversation and you learn from this

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Speaker 3: being in nature. And in early early early cultures when

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Speaker 3: language started developing, one of the one of the things

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Speaker 3: that that that the medicine men and women realized was

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Speaker 3: that because humans now have language, they can live in

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Speaker 3: mentally constructed worlds that are away from the organic here

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Speaker 3: and now. In other words, humans could start lying and

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Speaker 3: so and telling stories and uh and pulling away from

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Speaker 3: what's actually true. There is something called a universal truth

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Speaker 3: in the here and now. And so the shamanic journey

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Speaker 3: was actually one of the reasons why we developed was

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Speaker 3: was to keep a tuning to that which would not

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Speaker 3: turn on itself, which is everything in nature. It's only

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Speaker 3: humans that tell ourselves stories that we're something other than.

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Speaker 1: What we are.

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Speaker 3: The dandelion or the lion or the shark doesn't. They

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Speaker 3: just are apologetically themselves. So so it was nature. It

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Speaker 3: was nature. Was there a tunment with nature? And I

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Speaker 3: think there there are tunive with with with the spiritual realms.

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Speaker 3: The spiritual realms are are uh they're they're you know,

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Speaker 3: as real as the rainforest from a shamanic perspective. So

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Speaker 3: I think it was that. And I feel very much now,

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Speaker 3: you know, after you know, having done so much study

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Speaker 3: that on some level it's it's the energies that are

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Speaker 3: that are my teachers now they it's the energies and

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Speaker 3: and just tuning into the consciousness of the planet, tuning

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Speaker 3: into the and and cultural consciousness that are are. And

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Speaker 3: certainly you know with them and reading and all that.

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Speaker 3: But but you know, they learned from the lab. They

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Speaker 3: learned from the lab that the nature has a lot

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Speaker 3: to teach us, and we take it for grammars.

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Speaker 2: As we get into the various aspects of shamanism, Jonathan,

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Speaker 2: what can people generally do for themselves to make themselves

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Speaker 2: better people.

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Speaker 3: Well, a couple of things. I think that we all

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Speaker 3: have a unique gift. And this isn't hyperbole. I really,

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Speaker 3: I really not least do I believe this, but I

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Speaker 3: see it in my practice of the very full private practice.

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Speaker 3: We all have a unique gift. We all have a purpose.

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Speaker 3: And what I mean by purpose is how our individual

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Speaker 3: existence in some way served or touches the collective. Doesn't

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Speaker 3: mean that we're all activists, doesn't mean that we're all

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Speaker 3: even necessarily healers. But there is some special sauce in

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Speaker 3: all of us and h and so often that is

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Speaker 3: that is unique and maybe is contrary to what we've

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Speaker 3: been acculturated into, either what our families told us or

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Speaker 3: what the culture tells us is right or possible for us.

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Speaker 3: And so I think so I think it's about one

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Speaker 3: finding that purpose because when you do that, you're you're

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Speaker 3: in the same kind of flow with nature, because that

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Speaker 3: that nature is is that's what nature is doing. You

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Speaker 3: just think of you know, a plant. It has a

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Speaker 3: it has a instinctual appetite and sense of growing beyond itself. Uh,

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Speaker 3: it's connected to a community, it's uh, it wants to

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Speaker 3: reach its highest potential. Uh and uh, and it does

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Speaker 3: that unapologetically. It's wildly interested and that which will help

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Speaker 3: it do it and wildly disinterested and that which won't.

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Speaker 3: And I think that we're more like that. And I

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Speaker 3: think that when we identif by that purpose, that helps

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Speaker 3: us align with those energies that are in us. So

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Speaker 3: we might have healing or or in our personal investigative

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Speaker 3: work to do about who we actually are, not who

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Speaker 3: not who we are told to be or or or

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Speaker 3: who we are based on what how we want people

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Speaker 3: to think of us, but who we actually are. And

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Speaker 3: and with that then we start giving our gifts. We

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Speaker 3: start giving our gifts to the world. So you know,

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Speaker 3: I would say that I would say that that we

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Speaker 3: really do all have have a gift to gifts, and

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Speaker 3: we are all really in this together. And and might

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Speaker 3: a kind of a general cultural cultural some advice would

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Speaker 3: be to be curious about the person who doesn't look

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Speaker 3: like you, or doesn't doesn't live like the way you do.

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Speaker 3: Be curious about that there actually may be it's not

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Speaker 3: about you becoming something that you're not, but it's about

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Speaker 3: recognizing that the only way we're going to traverse what's

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Speaker 3: going on right now, this sort of massive shifting consciousness

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Speaker 3: is through empathic understanding. And I think right now we're

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Speaker 3: in a kind of battle between narcissism and sociopathy and freedom,

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Speaker 3: and I think that or authoritarianism and freedom. I think

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Speaker 3: that's that's sort of the battle right now. And with

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Speaker 3: freedom comes the sense of community, comes a sense of

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Speaker 3: reconnection with the earth, you know, and and the true

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Speaker 3: recognition that separation is really an illusion. It's just we

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Speaker 3: are all just part of one organism. We are all

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Speaker 3: just sells in one giant organism. And if we can

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Speaker 3: tend to our own individual cells and make it healthy

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Speaker 3: and well on behalf of the organism, we're doing our part.

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