WEBVTT - Baby #2 is Coming w/ Sarah Ockwell-Smith 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:04.360 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:15.160 in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi, everybody, Katie lows here, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.599 Welcome back to Katie's Crib, a judgment free zone for 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.479 mama's to really talk about all the highs and the 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.600 lows and the in betweens of being a parent. This episode, 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.840 you guys, is selfishly all for me, because this episode 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.600 is all about baby number two, which at the time 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.920 of this recording, I'm thirty five weeks pregnant. I haven't 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:38.519 thought about baby number two at all because I've been 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.880 so busy running around after baby number one. The only 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.440 thing I've done is look at this incredible book very slowly, 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.239 because I can get through a page or two at 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.360 night before passing out, and I was like, I gotta 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.600 get this brilliant author on Katie's Crib. Her name is 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.760 Sarah Akwell Smith. She has written eleven, count them, eleven 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.720 parenting books, including the one I'm talking about, which is 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:02.080 called The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.640 Number two and create a happy home for your firstborn 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.479 and new arrival. Sarah is coming to us from England. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.280 I am in England. Yeah really, close to cambrid Between 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:17.240 Cambridge and London, it's cold. Oh I'm so jealous. I'm 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.640 pregnant and just coming out of our fourth or fifth 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.200 Los Angeles heat wave of over a hundred degrees which 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.839 has been so it's just it's just cold and rainy. 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:29.200 That's what it does in England. I'm so happy to 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.160 have you on the show. First, I want to talk 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.520 about the first thing that happened to me when I 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.840 was trying to plan baby number two, which is this 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.679 obsession I had with this age gap situation. It's so stupid, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:44.160 but when you're a type a planner, Look like tons 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.280 of women just get pregnant with baby number two, three, four, five, 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.080 and they their whims of coal about it and they're 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.840 not planners. And if it happens, it happens great. That 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:57.240 ain't me, Okay. So I went down so many Google 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.080 spirals of deciding how to space them out, around work 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.240 around age, around when one goes to school, when's ones 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.639 added diapers, blah blah blah BiH blah. There's no one 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.800 size fits all. But based on your research, can you 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.240 share what are the differences between having kids let's say 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.160 closer in age versus further apart. I know everybody wants 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.840 a specific answer that says this is the right age gap, 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.520 go with that, but actually there was the hundreds, if 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.040 not thousands of research papers out there, and they will 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.840 all come to a different conclusion. It doesn't give you 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.959 the exact answer. Um, there's three people to consider, obviously, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.440 isn't there. There's the mom, there's the baby, and there's 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.720 the firstborn. So what we know from the research is 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.600 that a very small age gap scientists would consider that 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:50.440 sort of under about a year between pregnancies is physically 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.960 not ideal for the mom because it takes time for 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.760 your body to recover obviously after being pregnant and given 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.760 birth first time. Um, it's also not ideal for the 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.120 bay A B to have a small age gap. We know, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.760 for instance, that the risk of SIDS I'm not quite 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.320 sure if you call that, we call it cop death 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.480 or crib death, that's slightly higher if there's a smaller 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.519 age gap. But then on the flip side, there is 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:19.200 research that shows actually less than a year gap is 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:22.600 probably better for the firstborn, So either less than a 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.080 year or more than five years. So if for the 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.240 firstborn a really small age gap or a really big 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.760 age gap, they tend to adjust a bit better. Um. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.120 But then there's also another study, really big study that 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:36.640 said two years is the best age gap for the firstborn. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.000 All of these studies say conflicting things. Very often, we 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.040 don't get to choose, you know, so people get accidentally pregnant, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.040 or you might have planned an age gap and you 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.160 might take a long time to get pregnant. Maybe you 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.640 have secondary and fertility when you didn't have it first 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.680 time around. And I I get you. I'm a planner, 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.200 I'm exactly the same as you. But I think maybe 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.400 this is one thing we shouldn't try to plan so much, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.960 certainly not looking at the science. I think maybe consider 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:08.160 your situation, your work and your home and your finances, 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.360 things like that. But I think, really, whatever the age gap, 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.680 there are ways to make the best of it, and 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.359 nothing is really ideal. That's so great to hear. And 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.240 I also ran around to like everybody I knew as 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.520 adults who have great relationships with their siblings, and would 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:26.920 quiz them like, oh, you're really close with your brother 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.280 or your sister, what's your age gap? And some people 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.240 would say two years, some would say three, some would 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.640 say five, some would say ten, like it was completely 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:37.200 all over the map, and then a lot of people said, oh, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.200 there were years we hated each other and now we're 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.400 in love and best friends. An age gap is really 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.479 not the only thing that's going to make them best 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.680 friends or otherwise all of my age gaps are wrong. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:50.719 According to the science minor, I have four kids born 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:55.120 within four years of each other, which scientifically is like 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.760 the worst thing to do, but it worked for us, 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.960 and that silence is jar heading the ground. I know 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:03.680 that you had four kids, but I don't think I 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.320 realized they were within four years of each other. It 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.800 seemed a good idea at the time. Wow. I only 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.479 babysat for one family that had three kids under the 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.000 age of five, and I quit after thirty days because 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.640 I was like, this is its own I'm not going 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.039 to survive this this other situation. Does fertility change the 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.440 second time around? I mean, on a basic level, we're 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.000 older obviously second time around, so that can impact as well. 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.520 Um there could be sort of effects from the birth 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:38.760 that could impact fertility, and sometimes it's just unexplained. If 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.960 you take the birth control pill that could also affect 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.479 your fertilities. So again, so many variables. I spoke to 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.719 so many people who really struggled with their first baby 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.919 to conceive, like they had IBF who accidentally fell pregnant 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.280 the second time around. It all suspect to a lot 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.719 of people who got pregnant instantly first time, but tried 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.800 for three, four or five years for their second. Mmm. Interesting. 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.599 I've heard a lot of those stories of mom's breastfeeding 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:08.240 the first baby and having that situation where they haven't 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.560 had a menstrual cycle yet. Like it took me eight 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.400 months before I had a menstrual cycle when I was 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.040 breastfeeding my first and so a lot of people just assume, oh, 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.880 I can't get pregnant, but that's not true. Yeah, you 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.400 can get pregnant before your first period. Obviously you opulate 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:27.120 when you probably opulate before your parod comes back. So yeah, absolutely, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.000 you can get pregnant without menstruating, which is solved. What 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:36.599 can moms anticipate for their second pregnancy, Like, I feel 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:41.160 like the first pregnancy is so miraculous and even if 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.280 you're sick, you're I think you're so amazed that your 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.760 body is doing these things and obviously you're not running 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.480 around after a toddler, and I honestly feel like this 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.320 is the longest, most in depth conversation I will have 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.119 about the fact that I'm even pregnant. In the entire 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.000 eight and a half months I've been pregnant, that's how 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.200 like not a thing. It is, Like I keep saying 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:02.080 to my husband, like should we um talk about the name, 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:04.680 or like we just don't have time for this, do we. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.080 It's just so not precious this time around, Like if 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.560 I wasn't so uncomfortable, I would forget. And there's good 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.360 things and bad things about what you've just said. I 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.559 think we tend to be less anxious because we don't 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:18.960 have as much time to sort of focus on everything 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:20.640 and read all the books and go to all the 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.000 classes and do all the worrying. Time goes really quickly 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:28.040 as well compared to the firstborn. But on the downside 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.760 of that, I think that's when you start to feel 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.000 the first thoughts of guilt coming in, because with your firstborn, 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.920 if somebody said to you how many weeks and days, 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.280 you'd know exactly and you could say, well, they're the 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.600 size of this piece of fruit or this vegetable. And 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.720 now you're just like I haven't got a clue how 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.280 big is it? Who knows, So it's you're not giving 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:50.720 them the same sort of thinking and the headspace that 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.559 you did first time around. I kept a little memory book, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.120 and I wrote messages to my baby and stuck pictures 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.600 of my ultrasounds in, and I was very much, kind 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:04.520 of emotionally invested in the baby before it arrived. But 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.440 second time around, I didn't do any of that, you know, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.640 talking about a name, things that I knew well before 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.280 in the firstborn, but second time we didn't really focus 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.400 on it that much. That can really start to bring 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.920 feelings of guilty in that, am I already doing things differently? 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.160 Should I be focusing more on this baby? But then 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.280 the minute you start focusing on the baby, then you 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.160 worry that you're not focusing on your firstborn. So you 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.640 feel kind of really torn and also exhausted because you 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.199 can't sleep because you're running around after a toddler or 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.040 an older kid. And yeah, it's it's it's really different 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.439 and hard work and you're beeing all night long. It's ridiculous. 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.920 It's so so different. When do you recommend telling the 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.440 firstborn about baby number two? I think it depends on 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.200 how all your firstborn is. What we need to understand 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.240 is kids under about seven issues don't really have a 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.400 concept of what we call hypothetical thinking, so they don't 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.360 really think about the future in the same way that 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.720 we do. And they also struggle with something called abstract thinking. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.280 They can't really imagine things without actually seeing them or 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.800 touching them. It's why if you see like a four 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:15.800 year old and you asked them to do some sums, 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.840 they'll use their fingers to count because they can't do 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.280 it in their head like we can. Although some adults 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:26.880 still account, but so they they really struggle to understand 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.679 things that actually aren't there, that aren't tangible. So if 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.280 you're talking about a new baby brother or sister, they 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:36.200 will kind of seem like they get it, but actually 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.520 they really don't. What they don't understand is how their 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.880 lives will change, how things will impact exactly what will happen. 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.680 They also don't get time, so you could say to 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:49.400 them four months, five months, three months in December and March, 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.520 and they just don't get it. So what I actually 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.600 recommend is that you wait until between five and seven 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.640 months to tell them, so there's not so long to 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.600 wear eat um and you know, you've got a bump 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.920 so that it's all a little bit more real to them, 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:06.800 and maybe you've got some baby stuff going on. So 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.720 almost as late as possible, that's what I did, and 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.040 I got so much shipped for it. It was so bizarre, 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:17.360 Like I waited till seven months because I just instinctually 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:19.840 knew that was what was best for my kids. He 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.280 doesn't need to talk about this. For ten months, I 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.360 was like, he's not gonna get it. He's He's like, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.719 he's too he's not gonna understand this. So I've just started, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.520 you know, a couple little board books that people have 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.000 recommended about being an older brother and stuff like that, 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.320 and he hates them. He doesn't want to read that book. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.840 He wants to read Pepper, Pig Paw, patrol truck books. 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:41.600 If they're older, if you've got a six or a 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.840 seven or eight, you are absolutely tell them it's like 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.840 really early. But the practical preparation, I think, you know, 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.240 pretty training them and moving bedrooms or something, that's the 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.680 important stuff to do in terms of preparing them. But 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.840 I couldn't believe, like people would say, you haven't told 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.079 him yet. Oh we brought our baby to you know, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.200 we showed them the first ultrasound and stuff, and I 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:04.199 was like, well, you know, I've struggled with miscarriage and 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:05.640 stuff like that, and I was like, I don't want 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.520 him to know until there's something to know, you know 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.800 what I mean, whatever you do as a parent, somebody 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.240 will disagree with you. It will be wrong, you'll get criticism. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.240 You have to I would just ignore that. You know. 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:17.400 My one piece of west to all parents, just ignore 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.200 what everybody else says, right right, we you just touched 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.440 on this, which is what I've been getting through, is 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:26.440 like I had all these big transitions I wanted to 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.400 sort of hit with him before the baby became, potty training, 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.560 moving beds, moving rooms, et cetera. And I I really 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.199 wanted to take the time to space them all out 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.439 and make sure they were all sort of wrapped up 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:44.160 at least three months before the baby came. Is that 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.479 the recommendation, like if you're trying to do any big transitions, 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.280 to really not do them before the baby comes. Like 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:55.000 the two reasons so one is that hopefully that transition 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.280 would have happened and be a thing of the past 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.920 when the baby comes. You know, you don't ideally when 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.160 to be potty training a couple of weeks before and 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.240 then still going through it when you've got a newborn, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.680 So get them practiced and done and out of the way. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:10.920 But also if you don't associate the change with a 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.320 new baby, then they will normally take to it much better. 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.120 And also it can reduce any sort of sibling rivalry 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.280 with the baby. So say, if they're in your bedroom 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.400 and you want to move them out, if you move 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.360 them out shortly before the baby arrives and they associate 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.959 that baby with why they've been thrown out of your bedroom, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.800 then that can sort of cause more difficult behavior because 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.480 they think, oh, you know, mom or Dad's moved me 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.240 out because the baby is coming, and they want the 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.679 baby now and not me. How do you suggest preparing 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:43.760 our toddlers for mommy being away when we deliver the 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.600 baby if you're not doing a home birth. Yeah, so 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:51.240 I would always say have two or three different childcare plans. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.200 The more plans are better, um and prepared to being 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.840 in my language, Sarah, but you know, kind of prepared 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.000 for whatever's going to happen. So if they're going to 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.400 grandparents or you've got a friend coming or saying you know, 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.680 whatever you're doing, always do a practice run. Don't leave 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.160 it until the actual day for it to happen. In 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.000 the book, I talk about writing two plans, so like 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.079 a birth plan or birth preferences, and then I talk 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.760 about writing a while I'm giving birth plan, so a 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.480 childcare plan. So when you're in labor, you might give 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:25.840 you know, the doctors or the midwives or nurses, whatever 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:27.640 you call them, your plan that says this is what 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.160 I'd like to happen when I'm giving birth. And then 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:31.960 on the same way, I'd write a plan so that 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.760 whoever is looking after your firstborn you give them the 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.560 plan and say, this is what I'd like to happen 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.520 with my child whilst I'm giving birth. So I'd write 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.360 things on there. You know, this is what they like 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.319 to eat, this is what they like to drink, They 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.520 need this special toy to go to sleep, they like 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.040 to read this book at bedtime. You know, think of 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.560 all of the actualities and write them down on paper 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.800 and pack it up in the bag that's going to 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.960 be with your child. But do a practice run beforehand 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.000 and try and spend some time with that person before 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.640 you go into labor, so that the child was really 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.640 comfortable with them. Again, you don't want it all to 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.280 film new on the day itself. The more it's kind 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.800 of practiced and run through and you've got everything written down, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.560 I think the better for them. Yeah. I agree. In 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.400 movies and things like this, growing up, we always see 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:24.120 the first child being introduced to siblings in the hospital 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.000 and um, I've just had a friend give birth who 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:29.840 was like, you don't have to do it like that, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.720 you can do it at home. And I was like, 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.920 oh you can. Oh, that seems way better than my 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.720 son coming to like a place that he's never been before, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.720 on top of making an introduction happen. It had never 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:43.960 even occurred to me that that was an option. Do 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:48.080 you suggest like where and when the introduction takes place? 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.880 I think again, if they're slightly older and they understand 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.360 that you're not in hospital because you're sick or you're ill, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.680 or they're not going to walk past anything with sort 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:01.280 of beaping machines or something that scares them. Um, where 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.000 I gave birth to my first where we were staying 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.200 in the ward where we went to after giving birth, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.200 you had to walk past the labor section. So my 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.080 kid had to walk past women screaming paper to reach me, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.960 which wasn't Yeah, you know, it was okay. But if 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.160 i'd known that beforehand, I went with dumpings differently. But yeah, 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.600 So I've always talked about as well, if if they 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.520 do meet you in hospital, make sure any kind of 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.880 drips or blood or anything is covered up, because that 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.480 could be quite scary to them. But I think if 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.920 you're waiting to get home, I think it's nicer for 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.880 you with the baby, you get some time alone with 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.560 the baby because you you won't get back for a 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.120 long time when you get home right right right away, 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:45.280 and everybody neither meeting the baby. So your eldest child 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.000 meeting the baby in somewhere they feel safe and secure 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.720 and known. I think that can really help them as well, 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.280 because you've not got the strange environment thrown in. And 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.240 now I've also heard and you talk about this in 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:02.160 your book about gift giving and and how the introduction 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.520 is made, and oh my god, if it's going to 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.720 be at your house, then I better walk in first 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.320 and play with Albie for five minutes, and my husband 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.480 or your partner comes in with the baby and it's 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:16.800 not yours. And then you give a gift from the baby, 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.600 which seems insane to me because the baby can't shop. So, like, 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.960 what are your opinions thoughts on all of this? Do 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.640 you know? Often people will make a plan and they'll 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:27.360 do none of it and it all goes really great. 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:30.080 But I think the only things I would say is 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:32.400 just make sure that you've had a bit of a 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.280 rest and sleep so that you've got the energy for 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:40.600 your firstborn. And ideally great suggestions. You know, don't don't 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.680 be rushing to see them without having slept or something. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.120 But I'd also suggest putting the baby down somewhere, so 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.960 down in like a crib or somewhere so that you've 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.560 got your arms free for your firstborn, because if they 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.280 haven't seen you for twelve hours, twenty four hours, forty 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.960 eight however many hours, they're likely to want to hug. 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.360 And if you've got the baby there, you know, it's 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.520 it's it's like the babies in the way between them 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.240 and you. So I would just, you know, put the 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.639 baby down somewhere or have somebody else holding them so 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.399 that you can give the firstborn a hug. Yeah, I 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:19.119 think that's great. Great suggestions, but present gift. Yeah, so giftwise, 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:20.919 I would absolutely give them one, but i'd make it 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.960 from you, not from the baby. I mean, I don't 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.080 think it matters hugely, but it just makes a lot 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.920 more sense if it's from you. When you have visitors, 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.760 they're going to be bringing gifts for the newborn, they 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.199 just feel so sorry for the firstborn when all these 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.120 people are coming for gifts and holding and making fuss 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.080 of the new baby and they're kind of ignored and 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.760 they don't get gifts. So for me giving them a 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.159 gift and saying, you know, this is because we know 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.320 you're going to be a wonderful big brother, and mommy 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.360 and daddy have brought this for you. Oh I love that. 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.159 So what did you do when you've had four and 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.320 people were buying gifts for the newborn? Were the first three? Like? 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.080 What the hell? Maybe three and four? Nobody's interest it 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.280 anymore and everyone's like, Nope, no gifts for you. Um 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:08.440 oh that's really funny. Um. There's all this controversy with 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.600 my hippie friends out here in l A about calling 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:15.240 someone a big sister or big brother versus older. Is 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.840 that something like New l A like, I get what 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.160 they're saying. I don't have an issue of that. But 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.320 the only thing I would be worried about is if 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.840 you constantly say, you know, you're a big boy. Now, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.600 you don't need a pacifier, you don't need a diaper 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:33.240 because you're a big boy. Now, Um, what could happen 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:38.119 is they start resenting being big because being little gets 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.840 a pacified, being little gets a diaper, being little gets 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.040 sorts of hugs, being little gets to sleep with mom 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.760 and dad, and being big could end up this thing 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.880 that actually, I don't like being big and everybody keeps 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:51.879 calling me big, and I want to be little again. 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.560 And you'll often actually see a lot of new big 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.800 siblings they regress and start speaking like a baby, like 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.240 their speech will completely change, or they want to stop 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.720 breastfeeding again, or they'll want to pacifier again. They'll actually 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.000 try and become a baby. And I do think a 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.160 lot of that is because being big isn't all that's 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.840 sort of made out to be. Yeah, I've already sensed 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.160 that because like when we we moved my son into 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.760 a different room because he had this little nursery that's 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.920 attached to my bedroom where um, my second will go 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.200 and then we like party trained and we did all 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.720 this big kids stuff and I notice he'll say, but mommy, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.520 i'm your baby, and I say, oh my gosh, you're 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:33.800 always my baby, you know what I mean? Like I 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.280 And if he says and I want to cuddle, I'm 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.560 like absolutely. But I have noticed him correcting me if 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.320 there are too many big words being put around. He'll 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.359 be like, I'm your baby, and I'm like, you're my baby, 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.960 you know, like kind of fun of that, lady. I 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.080 don't think it's a huge problem. It's just you know 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.400 how it's is. If you're saying you grow up being 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:58.000 big boy, that's problematic. Yeah, no way, Um wait, hold 0:19:58.000 --> 0:19:59.960 on one second, I have to peece so badly well 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:05.000 compute sprinting. Can you give me two seconds? Hold done? 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:20.600 One second? Once I get one thing back? So on 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.600 jealousy and feeling left out. I've also heard this thing 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.600 about like my friend said, oh my gosh, just don't 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.359 let your firstborn see you breastfeeding your baby first thing 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.879 in the morning, like you've had some sleepover that they 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.399 weren't invited to, and like she's like, I throw my 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.840 baby like a freaking hot potato into the bassinet, you know, 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.199 so that when the when the firstborn comes in, is 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.000 there anything to that. I guess, yeah, I understand, But 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.239 you've got to live your life as well. You are 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.480 going to do things that are going to upset your firstborn. 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.840 You're not going to avoid it. And I think perhaps 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.800