Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi, everybody, Katie lows here,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Katie's Crib, a judgment free zone for
Speaker 1: mama's to really talk about all the highs and the
Speaker 1: lows and the in betweens of being a parent. This episode,
Speaker 1: you guys, is selfishly all for me, because this episode
Speaker 1: is all about baby number two, which at the time
Speaker 1: of this recording, I'm thirty five weeks pregnant. I haven't
Speaker 1: thought about baby number two at all because I've been
Speaker 1: so busy running around after baby number one. The only
Speaker 1: thing I've done is look at this incredible book very slowly,
Speaker 1: because I can get through a page or two at
Speaker 1: night before passing out, and I was like, I gotta
Speaker 1: get this brilliant author on Katie's Crib. Her name is
Speaker 1: Sarah Akwell Smith. She has written eleven, count them, eleven
Speaker 1: parenting books, including the one I'm talking about, which is
Speaker 1: called The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy
Speaker 1: Number two and create a happy home for your firstborn
Speaker 1: and new arrival. Sarah is coming to us from England.
Speaker 1: I am in England. Yeah really, close to cambrid Between
Speaker 1: Cambridge and London, it's cold. Oh I'm so jealous. I'm
Speaker 1: pregnant and just coming out of our fourth or fifth
Speaker 1: Los Angeles heat wave of over a hundred degrees which
Speaker 1: has been so it's just it's just cold and rainy.
Speaker 1: That's what it does in England. I'm so happy to
Speaker 1: have you on the show. First, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about the first thing that happened to me when I
Speaker 1: was trying to plan baby number two, which is this
Speaker 1: obsession I had with this age gap situation. It's so stupid,
Speaker 1: but when you're a type a planner, Look like tons
Speaker 1: of women just get pregnant with baby number two, three, four, five,
Speaker 1: and they their whims of coal about it and they're
Speaker 1: not planners. And if it happens, it happens great. That
Speaker 1: ain't me, Okay. So I went down so many Google
Speaker 1: spirals of deciding how to space them out, around work
Speaker 1: around age, around when one goes to school, when's ones
Speaker 1: added diapers, blah blah blah BiH blah. There's no one
Speaker 1: size fits all. But based on your research, can you
Speaker 1: share what are the differences between having kids let's say
Speaker 1: closer in age versus further apart. I know everybody wants
Speaker 1: a specific answer that says this is the right age gap,
Speaker 1: go with that, but actually there was the hundreds, if
Speaker 1: not thousands of research papers out there, and they will
Speaker 1: all come to a different conclusion. It doesn't give you
Speaker 1: the exact answer. Um, there's three people to consider, obviously,
Speaker 1: isn't there. There's the mom, there's the baby, and there's
Speaker 1: the firstborn. So what we know from the research is
Speaker 1: that a very small age gap scientists would consider that
Speaker 1: sort of under about a year between pregnancies is physically
Speaker 1: not ideal for the mom because it takes time for
Speaker 1: your body to recover obviously after being pregnant and given
Speaker 1: birth first time. Um, it's also not ideal for the
Speaker 1: bay A B to have a small age gap. We know,
Speaker 1: for instance, that the risk of SIDS I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure if you call that, we call it cop death
Speaker 1: or crib death, that's slightly higher if there's a smaller
Speaker 1: age gap. But then on the flip side, there is
Speaker 1: research that shows actually less than a year gap is
Speaker 1: probably better for the firstborn, So either less than a
Speaker 1: year or more than five years. So if for the
Speaker 1: firstborn a really small age gap or a really big
Speaker 1: age gap, they tend to adjust a bit better. Um.
Speaker 1: But then there's also another study, really big study that
Speaker 1: said two years is the best age gap for the firstborn.
Speaker 1: All of these studies say conflicting things. Very often, we
Speaker 1: don't get to choose, you know, so people get accidentally pregnant,
Speaker 1: or you might have planned an age gap and you
Speaker 1: might take a long time to get pregnant. Maybe you
Speaker 1: have secondary and fertility when you didn't have it first
Speaker 1: time around. And I I get you. I'm a planner,
Speaker 1: I'm exactly the same as you. But I think maybe
Speaker 1: this is one thing we shouldn't try to plan so much,
Speaker 1: certainly not looking at the science. I think maybe consider
Speaker 1: your situation, your work and your home and your finances,
Speaker 1: things like that. But I think, really, whatever the age gap,
Speaker 1: there are ways to make the best of it, and
Speaker 1: nothing is really ideal. That's so great to hear. And
Speaker 1: I also ran around to like everybody I knew as
Speaker 1: adults who have great relationships with their siblings, and would
Speaker 1: quiz them like, oh, you're really close with your brother
Speaker 1: or your sister, what's your age gap? And some people
Speaker 1: would say two years, some would say three, some would
Speaker 1: say five, some would say ten, like it was completely
Speaker 1: all over the map, and then a lot of people said, oh,
Speaker 1: there were years we hated each other and now we're
Speaker 1: in love and best friends. An age gap is really
Speaker 1: not the only thing that's going to make them best
Speaker 1: friends or otherwise all of my age gaps are wrong.
Speaker 1: According to the science minor, I have four kids born
Speaker 1: within four years of each other, which scientifically is like
Speaker 1: the worst thing to do, but it worked for us,
Speaker 1: and that silence is jar heading the ground. I know
Speaker 1: that you had four kids, but I don't think I
Speaker 1: realized they were within four years of each other. It
Speaker 1: seemed a good idea at the time. Wow. I only
Speaker 1: babysat for one family that had three kids under the
Speaker 1: age of five, and I quit after thirty days because
Speaker 1: I was like, this is its own I'm not going
Speaker 1: to survive this this other situation. Does fertility change the
Speaker 1: second time around? I mean, on a basic level, we're
Speaker 1: older obviously second time around, so that can impact as well.
Speaker 1: Um there could be sort of effects from the birth
Speaker 1: that could impact fertility, and sometimes it's just unexplained. If
Speaker 1: you take the birth control pill that could also affect
Speaker 1: your fertilities. So again, so many variables. I spoke to
Speaker 1: so many people who really struggled with their first baby
Speaker 1: to conceive, like they had IBF who accidentally fell pregnant
Speaker 1: the second time around. It all suspect to a lot
Speaker 1: of people who got pregnant instantly first time, but tried
Speaker 1: for three, four or five years for their second. Mmm. Interesting.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of those stories of mom's breastfeeding
Speaker 1: the first baby and having that situation where they haven't
Speaker 1: had a menstrual cycle yet. Like it took me eight
Speaker 1: months before I had a menstrual cycle when I was
Speaker 1: breastfeeding my first and so a lot of people just assume, oh,
Speaker 1: I can't get pregnant, but that's not true. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can get pregnant before your first period. Obviously you opulate
Speaker 1: when you probably opulate before your parod comes back. So yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you can get pregnant without menstruating, which is solved. What
Speaker 1: can moms anticipate for their second pregnancy, Like, I feel
Speaker 1: like the first pregnancy is so miraculous and even if
Speaker 1: you're sick, you're I think you're so amazed that your
Speaker 1: body is doing these things and obviously you're not running
Speaker 1: around after a toddler, and I honestly feel like this
Speaker 1: is the longest, most in depth conversation I will have
Speaker 1: about the fact that I'm even pregnant. In the entire
Speaker 1: eight and a half months I've been pregnant, that's how
Speaker 1: like not a thing. It is, Like I keep saying
Speaker 1: to my husband, like should we um talk about the name,
Speaker 1: or like we just don't have time for this, do we.
Speaker 1: It's just so not precious this time around, Like if
Speaker 1: I wasn't so uncomfortable, I would forget. And there's good
Speaker 1: things and bad things about what you've just said. I
Speaker 1: think we tend to be less anxious because we don't
Speaker 1: have as much time to sort of focus on everything
Speaker 1: and read all the books and go to all the
Speaker 1: classes and do all the worrying. Time goes really quickly
Speaker 1: as well compared to the firstborn. But on the downside
Speaker 1: of that, I think that's when you start to feel
Speaker 1: the first thoughts of guilt coming in, because with your firstborn,
Speaker 1: if somebody said to you how many weeks and days,
Speaker 1: you'd know exactly and you could say, well, they're the
Speaker 1: size of this piece of fruit or this vegetable. And
Speaker 1: now you're just like I haven't got a clue how
Speaker 1: big is it? Who knows, So it's you're not giving
Speaker 1: them the same sort of thinking and the headspace that
Speaker 1: you did first time around. I kept a little memory book,
Speaker 1: and I wrote messages to my baby and stuck pictures
Speaker 1: of my ultrasounds in, and I was very much, kind
Speaker 1: of emotionally invested in the baby before it arrived. But
Speaker 1: second time around, I didn't do any of that, you know,
Speaker 1: talking about a name, things that I knew well before
Speaker 1: in the firstborn, but second time we didn't really focus
Speaker 1: on it that much. That can really start to bring
Speaker 1: feelings of guilty in that, am I already doing things differently?
Speaker 1: Should I be focusing more on this baby? But then
Speaker 1: the minute you start focusing on the baby, then you
Speaker 1: worry that you're not focusing on your firstborn. So you
Speaker 1: feel kind of really torn and also exhausted because you
Speaker 1: can't sleep because you're running around after a toddler or
Speaker 1: an older kid. And yeah, it's it's it's really different
Speaker 1: and hard work and you're beeing all night long. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's so so different. When do you recommend telling the
Speaker 1: firstborn about baby number two? I think it depends on
Speaker 1: how all your firstborn is. What we need to understand
Speaker 1: is kids under about seven issues don't really have a
Speaker 1: concept of what we call hypothetical thinking, so they don't
Speaker 1: really think about the future in the same way that
Speaker 1: we do. And they also struggle with something called abstract thinking.
Speaker 1: They can't really imagine things without actually seeing them or
Speaker 1: touching them. It's why if you see like a four
Speaker 1: year old and you asked them to do some sums,
Speaker 1: they'll use their fingers to count because they can't do
Speaker 1: it in their head like we can. Although some adults
Speaker 1: still account, but so they they really struggle to understand
Speaker 1: things that actually aren't there, that aren't tangible. So if
Speaker 1: you're talking about a new baby brother or sister, they
Speaker 1: will kind of seem like they get it, but actually
Speaker 1: they really don't. What they don't understand is how their
Speaker 1: lives will change, how things will impact exactly what will happen.
Speaker 1: They also don't get time, so you could say to
Speaker 1: them four months, five months, three months in December and March,
Speaker 1: and they just don't get it. So what I actually
Speaker 1: recommend is that you wait until between five and seven
Speaker 1: months to tell them, so there's not so long to
Speaker 1: wear eat um and you know, you've got a bump
Speaker 1: so that it's all a little bit more real to them,
Speaker 1: and maybe you've got some baby stuff going on. So
Speaker 1: almost as late as possible, that's what I did, and
Speaker 1: I got so much shipped for it. It was so bizarre,
Speaker 1: Like I waited till seven months because I just instinctually
Speaker 1: knew that was what was best for my kids. He
Speaker 1: doesn't need to talk about this. For ten months, I
Speaker 1: was like, he's not gonna get it. He's He's like,
Speaker 1: he's too he's not gonna understand this. So I've just started,
Speaker 1: you know, a couple little board books that people have
Speaker 1: recommended about being an older brother and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and he hates them. He doesn't want to read that book.
Speaker 1: He wants to read Pepper, Pig Paw, patrol truck books.
Speaker 1: If they're older, if you've got a six or a
Speaker 1: seven or eight, you are absolutely tell them it's like
Speaker 1: really early. But the practical preparation, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: pretty training them and moving bedrooms or something, that's the
Speaker 1: important stuff to do in terms of preparing them. But
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe, like people would say, you haven't told
Speaker 1: him yet. Oh we brought our baby to you know,
Speaker 1: we showed them the first ultrasound and stuff, and I
Speaker 1: was like, well, you know, I've struggled with miscarriage and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and I was like, I don't want
Speaker 1: him to know until there's something to know, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, whatever you do as a parent, somebody
Speaker 1: will disagree with you. It will be wrong, you'll get criticism.
Speaker 1: You have to I would just ignore that. You know.
Speaker 1: My one piece of west to all parents, just ignore
Speaker 1: what everybody else says, right right, we you just touched
Speaker 1: on this, which is what I've been getting through, is
Speaker 1: like I had all these big transitions I wanted to
Speaker 1: sort of hit with him before the baby became, potty training,
Speaker 1: moving beds, moving rooms, et cetera. And I I really
Speaker 1: wanted to take the time to space them all out
Speaker 1: and make sure they were all sort of wrapped up
Speaker 1: at least three months before the baby came. Is that
Speaker 1: the recommendation, like if you're trying to do any big transitions,
Speaker 1: to really not do them before the baby comes. Like
Speaker 1: the two reasons so one is that hopefully that transition
Speaker 1: would have happened and be a thing of the past
Speaker 1: when the baby comes. You know, you don't ideally when
Speaker 1: to be potty training a couple of weeks before and
Speaker 1: then still going through it when you've got a newborn,
Speaker 1: So get them practiced and done and out of the way.
Speaker 1: But also if you don't associate the change with a
Speaker 1: new baby, then they will normally take to it much better.
Speaker 1: And also it can reduce any sort of sibling rivalry
Speaker 1: with the baby. So say, if they're in your bedroom
Speaker 1: and you want to move them out, if you move
Speaker 1: them out shortly before the baby arrives and they associate
Speaker 1: that baby with why they've been thrown out of your bedroom,
Speaker 1: then that can sort of cause more difficult behavior because
Speaker 1: they think, oh, you know, mom or Dad's moved me
Speaker 1: out because the baby is coming, and they want the
Speaker 1: baby now and not me. How do you suggest preparing
Speaker 1: our toddlers for mommy being away when we deliver the
Speaker 1: baby if you're not doing a home birth. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I would always say have two or three different childcare plans.
Speaker 1: The more plans are better, um and prepared to being
Speaker 1: in my language, Sarah, but you know, kind of prepared
Speaker 1: for whatever's going to happen. So if they're going to
Speaker 1: grandparents or you've got a friend coming or saying you know,
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing, always do a practice run. Don't leave
Speaker 1: it until the actual day for it to happen. In
Speaker 1: the book, I talk about writing two plans, so like
Speaker 1: a birth plan or birth preferences, and then I talk
Speaker 1: about writing a while I'm giving birth plan, so a
Speaker 1: childcare plan. So when you're in labor, you might give
Speaker 1: you know, the doctors or the midwives or nurses, whatever
Speaker 1: you call them, your plan that says this is what
Speaker 1: I'd like to happen when I'm giving birth. And then
Speaker 1: on the same way, I'd write a plan so that
Speaker 1: whoever is looking after your firstborn you give them the
Speaker 1: plan and say, this is what I'd like to happen
Speaker 1: with my child whilst I'm giving birth. So I'd write
Speaker 1: things on there. You know, this is what they like
Speaker 1: to eat, this is what they like to drink, They
Speaker 1: need this special toy to go to sleep, they like
Speaker 1: to read this book at bedtime. You know, think of
Speaker 1: all of the actualities and write them down on paper
Speaker 1: and pack it up in the bag that's going to
Speaker 1: be with your child. But do a practice run beforehand
Speaker 1: and try and spend some time with that person before
Speaker 1: you go into labor, so that the child was really
Speaker 1: comfortable with them. Again, you don't want it all to
Speaker 1: film new on the day itself. The more it's kind
Speaker 1: of practiced and run through and you've got everything written down,
Speaker 1: I think the better for them. Yeah. I agree. In
Speaker 1: movies and things like this, growing up, we always see
Speaker 1: the first child being introduced to siblings in the hospital
Speaker 1: and um, I've just had a friend give birth who
Speaker 1: was like, you don't have to do it like that,
Speaker 1: you can do it at home. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh you can. Oh, that seems way better than my
Speaker 1: son coming to like a place that he's never been before,
Speaker 1: on top of making an introduction happen. It had never
Speaker 1: even occurred to me that that was an option. Do
Speaker 1: you suggest like where and when the introduction takes place?
Speaker 1: I think again, if they're slightly older and they understand
Speaker 1: that you're not in hospital because you're sick or you're ill,
Speaker 1: or they're not going to walk past anything with sort
Speaker 1: of beaping machines or something that scares them. Um, where
Speaker 1: I gave birth to my first where we were staying
Speaker 1: in the ward where we went to after giving birth,
Speaker 1: you had to walk past the labor section. So my
Speaker 1: kid had to walk past women screaming paper to reach me,
Speaker 1: which wasn't Yeah, you know, it was okay. But if
Speaker 1: i'd known that beforehand, I went with dumpings differently. But yeah,
Speaker 1: So I've always talked about as well, if if they
Speaker 1: do meet you in hospital, make sure any kind of
Speaker 1: drips or blood or anything is covered up, because that
Speaker 1: could be quite scary to them. But I think if
Speaker 1: you're waiting to get home, I think it's nicer for
Speaker 1: you with the baby, you get some time alone with
Speaker 1: the baby because you you won't get back for a
Speaker 1: long time when you get home right right right away,
Speaker 1: and everybody neither meeting the baby. So your eldest child
Speaker 1: meeting the baby in somewhere they feel safe and secure
Speaker 1: and known. I think that can really help them as well,
Speaker 1: because you've not got the strange environment thrown in. And
Speaker 1: now I've also heard and you talk about this in
Speaker 1: your book about gift giving and and how the introduction
Speaker 1: is made, and oh my god, if it's going to
Speaker 1: be at your house, then I better walk in first
Speaker 1: and play with Albie for five minutes, and my husband
Speaker 1: or your partner comes in with the baby and it's
Speaker 1: not yours. And then you give a gift from the baby,
Speaker 1: which seems insane to me because the baby can't shop. So, like,
Speaker 1: what are your opinions thoughts on all of this? Do
Speaker 1: you know? Often people will make a plan and they'll
Speaker 1: do none of it and it all goes really great.
Speaker 1: But I think the only things I would say is
Speaker 1: just make sure that you've had a bit of a
Speaker 1: rest and sleep so that you've got the energy for
Speaker 1: your firstborn. And ideally great suggestions. You know, don't don't
Speaker 1: be rushing to see them without having slept or something.
Speaker 1: But I'd also suggest putting the baby down somewhere, so
Speaker 1: down in like a crib or somewhere so that you've
Speaker 1: got your arms free for your firstborn, because if they
Speaker 1: haven't seen you for twelve hours, twenty four hours, forty
Speaker 1: eight however many hours, they're likely to want to hug.
Speaker 1: And if you've got the baby there, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's like the babies in the way between them
Speaker 1: and you. So I would just, you know, put the
Speaker 1: baby down somewhere or have somebody else holding them so
Speaker 1: that you can give the firstborn a hug. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's great. Great suggestions, but present gift. Yeah, so giftwise,
Speaker 1: I would absolutely give them one, but i'd make it
Speaker 1: from you, not from the baby. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: think it matters hugely, but it just makes a lot
Speaker 1: more sense if it's from you. When you have visitors,
Speaker 1: they're going to be bringing gifts for the newborn, they
Speaker 1: just feel so sorry for the firstborn when all these
Speaker 1: people are coming for gifts and holding and making fuss
Speaker 1: of the new baby and they're kind of ignored and
Speaker 1: they don't get gifts. So for me giving them a
Speaker 1: gift and saying, you know, this is because we know
Speaker 1: you're going to be a wonderful big brother, and mommy
Speaker 1: and daddy have brought this for you. Oh I love that.
Speaker 1: So what did you do when you've had four and
Speaker 1: people were buying gifts for the newborn? Were the first three? Like?
Speaker 1: What the hell? Maybe three and four? Nobody's interest it
Speaker 1: anymore and everyone's like, Nope, no gifts for you. Um
Speaker 1: oh that's really funny. Um. There's all this controversy with
Speaker 1: my hippie friends out here in l A about calling
Speaker 1: someone a big sister or big brother versus older. Is
Speaker 1: that something like New l A like, I get what
Speaker 1: they're saying. I don't have an issue of that. But
Speaker 1: the only thing I would be worried about is if
Speaker 1: you constantly say, you know, you're a big boy. Now,
Speaker 1: you don't need a pacifier, you don't need a diaper
Speaker 1: because you're a big boy. Now, Um, what could happen
Speaker 1: is they start resenting being big because being little gets
Speaker 1: a pacified, being little gets a diaper, being little gets
Speaker 1: sorts of hugs, being little gets to sleep with mom
Speaker 1: and dad, and being big could end up this thing
Speaker 1: that actually, I don't like being big and everybody keeps
Speaker 1: calling me big, and I want to be little again.
Speaker 1: And you'll often actually see a lot of new big
Speaker 1: siblings they regress and start speaking like a baby, like
Speaker 1: their speech will completely change, or they want to stop
Speaker 1: breastfeeding again, or they'll want to pacifier again. They'll actually
Speaker 1: try and become a baby. And I do think a
Speaker 1: lot of that is because being big isn't all that's
Speaker 1: sort of made out to be. Yeah, I've already sensed
Speaker 1: that because like when we we moved my son into
Speaker 1: a different room because he had this little nursery that's
Speaker 1: attached to my bedroom where um, my second will go
Speaker 1: and then we like party trained and we did all
Speaker 1: this big kids stuff and I notice he'll say, but mommy,
Speaker 1: i'm your baby, and I say, oh my gosh, you're
Speaker 1: always my baby, you know what I mean? Like I
Speaker 1: And if he says and I want to cuddle, I'm
Speaker 1: like absolutely. But I have noticed him correcting me if
Speaker 1: there are too many big words being put around. He'll
Speaker 1: be like, I'm your baby, and I'm like, you're my baby,
Speaker 1: you know, like kind of fun of that, lady. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a huge problem. It's just you know
Speaker 1: how it's is. If you're saying you grow up being
Speaker 1: big boy, that's problematic. Yeah, no way, Um wait, hold
Speaker 1: on one second, I have to peece so badly well
Speaker 1: compute sprinting. Can you give me two seconds? Hold done?
Speaker 1: One second? Once I get one thing back? So on
Speaker 1: jealousy and feeling left out. I've also heard this thing
Speaker 1: about like my friend said, oh my gosh, just don't
Speaker 1: let your firstborn see you breastfeeding your baby first thing
Speaker 1: in the morning, like you've had some sleepover that they
Speaker 1: weren't invited to, and like she's like, I throw my
Speaker 1: baby like a freaking hot potato into the bassinet, you know,
Speaker 1: so that when the when the firstborn comes in, is
Speaker 1: there anything to that. I guess, yeah, I understand, But
Speaker 1: you've got to live your life as well. You are
Speaker 1: going to do things that are going to upset your firstborn.
Speaker 1: You're not going to avoid it. And I think perhaps
Speaker 1: being a bit more realistic and just thinking there is
Speaker 1: going they come to time when they're really jealous or
Speaker 1: they're really upset, and we'll deal with it when it happens.
Speaker 1: But I think talking about jealousy, I prefer to talk
Speaker 1: about it as grief. So I talk about this in
Speaker 1: the book that when we talk about our first one's
Speaker 1: being jealous when a new baby or eyes, I think
Speaker 1: it it makes us thinking quite a negative mindset about them.
Speaker 1: It makes us think they're being really naughty, they're deliberately
Speaker 1: attention seeking, you know, the behavior is so bad, um,
Speaker 1: and then you think about, you know, I should ignore
Speaker 1: them or put them in time out or it don't
Speaker 1: give them any attention when they're being naughty. And I
Speaker 1: think if you think about them being grieving rather than jealous,
Speaker 1: it's much more a better explanation of what they're going through.
Speaker 1: So effectively they're grieving overnight. They've lost the relationship that
Speaker 1: they had with you. They've lost the full focus of
Speaker 1: your attention or your love or your connection. And sorry,
Speaker 1: I normally make people cry at this point. Sorry if
Speaker 1: but it is. It's like a loss, you know, and
Speaker 1: you grieve as well, you grieve the loss of what
Speaker 1: you had the day before. So I think if we
Speaker 1: think of them as going through a grief transition process,
Speaker 1: it makes us have compassion and empathy for them. It
Speaker 1: makes us understand, you know, hey, buddy, this is really
Speaker 1: half you. I get it. You've lost what we had
Speaker 1: and you're struggling to cope with the way things are.
Speaker 1: And it won't lost. You know, they will get over
Speaker 1: it and they'll you know, they'll have a great relationship
Speaker 1: with their sibling in months or years to come. But
Speaker 1: you've just got to as you would treat somebody going
Speaker 1: through grief, with compassion, And I think that's how we
Speaker 1: need to treat them and accept the fact that they're
Speaker 1: going to misbehave and that their behavior is going to
Speaker 1: regress and they might not be very nice for all,
Speaker 1: because nobody is very nice when they're grieving. What regressions
Speaker 1: are quote unquote normal so um regressions that happen when
Speaker 1: a new baby arrives and normally around you the feeling
Speaker 1: of a loss of control or a loss of autonomy
Speaker 1: for the first one, because you know everything they had
Speaker 1: is gone and they can't control or what happens anymore.
Speaker 1: There are only three things that they can control. That's
Speaker 1: what they eat or what they swallow if you put
Speaker 1: something in the mouth, whether they sleep and whether they
Speaker 1: wake up in the night, and toileting or potty training.
Speaker 1: So there's three common regressings that you might find after
Speaker 1: a new baby are eating, so they might get really
Speaker 1: picky about what they eat or pickier. All toddlers are
Speaker 1: picky eaters, but maybe pickier um. And they might start
Speaker 1: waking up more in the night, or lots of bedtime resistance,
Speaker 1: like they won't go to bed. It's really common um.
Speaker 1: And if they were reliably potty trend, you might start
Speaker 1: to have accidents or really really normal they will go
Speaker 1: and it's not a guarantee that you'll experience them, but
Speaker 1: if they do happen, and just think, I know what
Speaker 1: this is. This is that brief transition period. Just try
Speaker 1: and big breasts get through it. And it will get better.
Speaker 1: This is such a good reminder. I have to make
Speaker 1: sure my husband listens to this episode because I also
Speaker 1: imagine that with lack of sleep and all of that,
Speaker 1: your patients is going to I mean, I've already noticed
Speaker 1: how much my patience, how short it is, just being
Speaker 1: pregnant and running after a toddler. Like I've said things
Speaker 1: I've never said to him, you know, like when he's
Speaker 1: testing and just like oh yeah, I have my sleep
Speaker 1: sack on, my nighttime diaper, my pajamas and now and
Speaker 1: I'm in bed, and now I have to poop like
Speaker 1: that's like a regular thing. And then I have to
Speaker 1: take him out and take off everything off and all
Speaker 1: this crap. Sometimes I've literally said to him, this is ridiculous, Albie,
Speaker 1: I cannot do this anymore, like like talking to him
Speaker 1: like an adult. But I'm going to keep saying a
Speaker 1: mantra into my head. He's grieving's not doing this celebrity.
Speaker 1: He's going through a hard time rather than deliberately giving
Speaker 1: me a hard time. You know you will lead your
Speaker 1: ship because the parents do you know, you're not superman.
Speaker 1: You you are going to shout, you cry, You'll have
Speaker 1: attention if he has attention, and I think you need
Speaker 1: the sort of graciousness to accept that your behavior might
Speaker 1: regress a bit as well, and that's okay. And you
Speaker 1: know what. The other reminder is there that I've found
Speaker 1: helpful is like the couple times will that couple come
Speaker 1: on more than that that I've lost my ship on
Speaker 1: LB as of recent is like hours later, I'll be like, hey,
Speaker 1: but I'm really sorry that I overreacted a few hours
Speaker 1: ago when you asked to go to the bathroom and
Speaker 1: I was I was short with you, and I'm sorry
Speaker 1: and that wasn't the right way to speak with you.
Speaker 1: And I'll try to do better next time, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So the best thing you can do.
Speaker 1: And actually a lot of people think that I don't
Speaker 1: make mistakes because I'm a parenting expert. I hate that phrase,
Speaker 1: but you know that's what my publishers make me call myself.
Speaker 1: But I really really am not perfect. I really lose
Speaker 1: it with my kids sometimes. But the one thing that
Speaker 1: I will always try and do is apologize to them.
Speaker 1: So in the hitts the moment, you probably just need
Speaker 1: to go and breathe and calm down away from the kids.
Speaker 1: But once you've had a breathe, once you've thought about
Speaker 1: everything calmed down, the most important thing is just to
Speaker 1: go and apologize to them and reconnect. So it's called
Speaker 1: the rupture remember pair cycle. There's the rupture of when
Speaker 1: you lose it, but then there's the repair of that reconnection.
Speaker 1: And it's so important for your job for the parents
Speaker 1: to apologize to them because it teaches them all sorts
Speaker 1: of relationship skills, but most importantly, it teaches them what
Speaker 1: they should do in the future when they mess up
Speaker 1: with the relationship. So if we never made a mistake,
Speaker 1: they wouldn't learn how to apologize. So to see it
Speaker 1: as a positive thing to right ideas of how to
Speaker 1: get number one active and involved? Is that helpful? Like,
Speaker 1: definitely give them a special job so that they feel
Speaker 1: kind of a sense of pride and control. So it
Speaker 1: could be that every time the baby needs a diaper check.
Speaker 1: It's really weird, same diaper We call them nappies in
Speaker 1: the UK, and I have to remind myself to use
Speaker 1: a US words. But yeah, every time they need a
Speaker 1: diaper change, then that's their job. So that they could
Speaker 1: be like the diaper duty person and they get everything
Speaker 1: together and then and their job could be because I
Speaker 1: get the wipes out for you and piss them to you,
Speaker 1: or if you are breastfeeding, their job could be go
Speaker 1: and get a blanket for the baby or get a
Speaker 1: muslin or something. So every time that they have a
Speaker 1: role as well. But I would also if you're talking
Speaker 1: about breastfeeding or nursing, have like a selection of toys
Speaker 1: or activities that only come out when you're breastfeeding. So
Speaker 1: that's a great tip. Get some like anything that's that's new,
Speaker 1: that's novel to them that they really like. Put them
Speaker 1: in a box and it only comes out. So it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's time to breastfeed the baby. Now go and get
Speaker 1: your breastfeeding toys and come and sit them next to
Speaker 1: me and we'll go through these. But and then when
Speaker 1: you finish the feed, put them away right so that
Speaker 1: they hold a special interest. But yeah, the more jobs,
Speaker 1: the more special activities are better. And things like if
Speaker 1: you need to buy something for the baby, take your
Speaker 1: first born on a shopping trip and let them pick
Speaker 1: something out as well. This is a big sphere of mine.
Speaker 1: So my first is a boy um and he's he's
Speaker 1: an aggressive player. It's how he wrote, like his best
Speaker 1: friends are two years older. It's a lot of wrestling.
Speaker 1: It's so foreign to me because I'm so like I.
Speaker 1: I can't even watch like boxing matches, Like I have
Speaker 1: such a not a great association with physical play. And
Speaker 1: my son is very physical, and I'm pregnant with the daughter,
Speaker 1: she might be very physical too. I have no idea.
Speaker 1: We'll see when she's like when she comes here. Um,
Speaker 1: but my question is what is the correct language around
Speaker 1: if your first is aggressive with your second, which I'm
Speaker 1: sure happens to everybody, so um, two things. I think
Speaker 1: you've got to think about why they're doing it. So
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just just an accident, you know, they just
Speaker 1: you have over enthusiastic hugs or giving them a toy,
Speaker 1: and they don't mean to hurt the baby. They're just
Speaker 1: toddlers and they don't have the control of the body
Speaker 1: that we do. So there I work on teaching them
Speaker 1: to be gentle, so you know, gentle hands or whatever.
Speaker 1: But don't tell them to be gentle. Show them how
Speaker 1: to be gentle. So like you could get them a
Speaker 1: doll that you play with and you show them how
Speaker 1: to This is how to gently stroke the baby, or
Speaker 1: this is how to sort of gently hug the baby,
Speaker 1: or something like that, but actually role play it, role
Speaker 1: play with dolls or say to them, you know, this
Speaker 1: is how you gently touch somebody. Let money do it
Speaker 1: to your hand, and then you do it to me
Speaker 1: so that they know what you mean. And then I
Speaker 1: think sometimes you have to kind of let it slide
Speaker 1: when they are a bit overenthusiastic. Um you very quickly
Speaker 1: find that your second baby is incredibly resilient, and I
Speaker 1: don't try as much because they get used to kind
Speaker 1: of being hit and over if youssily stroked or something
Speaker 1: right from the off. And they also tend to be
Speaker 1: much easier sleep wise as well, because your toddler will
Speaker 1: do something and you have to quickly put the baby down.
Speaker 1: Then they will have to get themselves off to sleep
Speaker 1: because you're trying to stop your toddler doing something horrendously
Speaker 1: dangerous that if they are, if they're doing it on purpose,
Speaker 1: so they actually purpose trying to hurt the baby, then
Speaker 1: I would be again going back to that grief mindset,
Speaker 1: the baby is the thing that has changed their life
Speaker 1: at that moment in time. They kind of wish the
Speaker 1: baby wasn't there, or they're showing you know, you've hurt me,
Speaker 1: so I'm hurting you. So the way to resolve that
Speaker 1: is not to punish them or shout at them when
Speaker 1: they do it. It's trying to think, you know, how
Speaker 1: can I make things better for this child so that
Speaker 1: they don't need to behave in that way, and that
Speaker 1: the best thing that you can do there is trying
Speaker 1: to get some once a one time with them away
Speaker 1: from the baby, and try and build that time in
Speaker 1: every day. So even if it's like fifteen minutes and
Speaker 1: you do bedtime together with partner or grandparents or somebody
Speaker 1: with the baby in a totally different room. I keep
Speaker 1: hearing this fifteen a minute magic number, which has really
Speaker 1: been such a savior to me being pregnant and and
Speaker 1: like COVID, just like if I can do fifteen minutes
Speaker 1: once or twice a day with no phone, him leading
Speaker 1: the play a hundred send attention, it goes miles, like
Speaker 1: it really does, sucking miles, and it takes the pressure
Speaker 1: of me where it's like, oh God, I don't have
Speaker 1: that three hour window to take him on an adventure
Speaker 1: of something that has never done. Like that's not happening,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean the two things that work the
Speaker 1: best is just ten or fifteen minutes, as you said,
Speaker 1: put the phone down, get down on the floor with
Speaker 1: them and play. But say to them, what do you
Speaker 1: want to play? You decide what we do, so whatever
Speaker 1: stupid things they want to do, that you join with them.
Speaker 1: And then I think the most important thing that you
Speaker 1: can do is do bedtime if you've got another adult
Speaker 1: in the house. So what tends to happen when we
Speaker 1: have another baby if there's two of you, is the
Speaker 1: partner will then automatically take over bedtime for the firstborn
Speaker 1: and the mom will then automatically do the baby in
Speaker 1: the evening. But actually it works much better if you
Speaker 1: can swap it around, because after a day with the baby,
Speaker 1: what the toddler or the first one really ideally need
Speaker 1: is time with mom and mom alone at bedtime. And
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of the most important time of day.
Speaker 1: It's you know, that's the end of their day where
Speaker 1: they're processing what they've been through and they're going to sleep.
Speaker 1: So if they can have that time with you and
Speaker 1: dad or partner has got the baby in a different room,
Speaker 1: and it's likely you know, if you're breastfeeding. I would
Speaker 1: breastfeed and then kind of run and say here, take
Speaker 1: the baby to take them in the car. You feel
Speaker 1: like fifteen minutes half an hour while I do the
Speaker 1: first one's bedtime. It has a huge impact. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so interesting, mostly because I was so sick, uh, starting
Speaker 1: at about four or five o'clock with this pregnancy that
Speaker 1: like I was dead to the world, like I couldn't deal.
Speaker 1: So he's been doing bedtime and I do mornings. He
Speaker 1: wakes up with me and we do all of our books.
Speaker 1: I do like thirty minutes with him in the morning,
Speaker 1: but I guess we should switch it up. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And also the other thing is it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be every day, but if if you can both do
Speaker 1: bedtime at some point, it makes them much more flexible,
Speaker 1: so that they you end up with a child who
Speaker 1: won't only go to sleep for mom or who won't
Speaker 1: on you got to sleep with dad. And actually the
Speaker 1: wonderful thing is it makes the baby much more flexible.
Speaker 1: So when I talk to parents about sleep, one of
Speaker 1: the most common questions I get is dad or partner
Speaker 1: can't get the baby to sleep, only I can do it.
Speaker 1: Particularly breastfeeding moms. You know, what can I do? How
Speaker 1: can I help dad to get the baby to sleep?
Speaker 1: And with your second baby, you have this marvelous sort
Speaker 1: of opportunity from the first because if dad has the
Speaker 1: baby in the evening or partner has the baby in
Speaker 1: the evening, then the baby gets used to go and
Speaker 1: to sleep for them as well as you. You end
Speaker 1: up that like all on you exactly. So you know,
Speaker 1: in six months time, you don't have that baby who
Speaker 1: will only go to seep for mom, which is normal,
Speaker 1: but it's a lot more helpful for you if you've
Speaker 1: got both kids will go to sleep for both adults. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you've set yourself up for doing way too much
Speaker 1: if you're just the baby, or let me just do
Speaker 1: it because it only works when I do it. So
Speaker 1: if you have family that's helping you with the baby, sisters, siblings, friends.
Speaker 1: I know with COVID it's different, but my parents are
Speaker 1: going to be here and they'll be watching Albie. I
Speaker 1: was just under the impression spoil him, give him whatever
Speaker 1: he wants, and give him all the attention in the world.
Speaker 1: Tell me what's right or wrong and what I should
Speaker 1: tell them they should be doing with with with baby
Speaker 1: one kind of pretty much what you've just said. But
Speaker 1: it's really important to discipline and have boundaries to a
Speaker 1: lot of parents will start to feel so guilty that
Speaker 1: they end up really permissive and they just do anything
Speaker 1: the firstborn wants because they don't want to upset them anymore.
Speaker 1: And actually that's not good for them either. So don't
Speaker 1: be afraid to discipline him or have those boundaries and limits.
Speaker 1: But also, yeah, shower him with love and attention, play
Speaker 1: with him. If they're going to bring a gift for
Speaker 1: the baby, I would say, can you bring a small
Speaker 1: gift for him too? Sure? Sure, but yeah, keeps normality
Speaker 1: going as well. It's again, at the moment it's difficult,
Speaker 1: but if he goes to daycare or something like that,
Speaker 1: then I would actually keep that up right, right, right right.
Speaker 1: His normal things is normal activities and routines. Try and
Speaker 1: keep them up as much as possible, because that kind
Speaker 1: of gives us some predictability to an otherwise very unpredictable situation.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. We talked about the massive mom guilt. I've
Speaker 1: had moms just breaking down crying towards the end of
Speaker 1: the pregnancy with their second really morning and grieving and um,
Speaker 1: you know, saying goodbye to what was once a two
Speaker 1: or three family unit that's now changing up. Any advice
Speaker 1: for those moms and those horrible feelings, The only advice
Speaker 1: I think is that everybody will feel it to some extent.
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with you. It's really normal, and I
Speaker 1: think just kind of accept the feelings, but also under
Speaker 1: some eventually they will fade. I don't think there's anything
Speaker 1: you can do to make them go quicker. You will
Speaker 1: absolutely have enough love for another baby. Your love has
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be divided, it multiplies. However, guilt will
Speaker 1: never completely go. You know, my eldest is eighteen, and
Speaker 1: I still feel guilty sometimes. You know, you still have
Speaker 1: those pangs of what if, what if there was just
Speaker 1: you or thinking back to those times when there was
Speaker 1: just you, And that doesn't make you a bad person.
Speaker 1: M So just be kind to yourself. I think that's
Speaker 1: the whole thing with the second baby, is just be
Speaker 1: kind to everybody. Everybody's grieving, everybody's see I haven't felt
Speaker 1: that yet. I'm curious. Like I'm very close with my
Speaker 1: brother and he we have like a for everyone listening.
Speaker 1: We have a two year nine month age difference. I
Speaker 1: tried to recreate that, and I got an acting job
Speaker 1: and couldn't have that happen. So my children are three
Speaker 1: years and two months apart, which I will blame for
Speaker 1: the rest of their existence when they don't get along,
Speaker 1: which is so so stupid. But I feel like my
Speaker 1: brother was the greatest gift my mom ever gave me.
Speaker 1: Like period, I feel so fortunate that I don't walk
Speaker 1: through my life alone, that there's one other person on
Speaker 1: this earth that understands my parents the way we do,
Speaker 1: you know, like my significant other will never understand my
Speaker 1: parents like my brother does. And I feel very relieved that, like,
Speaker 1: as we walk through our lives, that we have each other.
Speaker 1: And that's going to be like a big hoop for
Speaker 1: me to jump through because who knows if my children
Speaker 1: will get along the way my brother. To keep reminding
Speaker 1: use of that. And when you were a kids, there
Speaker 1: would probably quite a lot of times when you didn't
Speaker 1: like your brother, so you beat the ship out of
Speaker 1: each other. Like my kids, they've got older, they've definitely
Speaker 1: got closer together, but when they were little, it was
Speaker 1: just like all at war. And I think so pressure
Speaker 1: yourself all your children to be the greatest of friends,
Speaker 1: and it it's also really boring for the total and
Speaker 1: older child to have a baby. You know, babies are
Speaker 1: really dull. When you want to play catch with them
Speaker 1: or you want to run around with them and they
Speaker 1: can't do anything. That relationship will grow and I don't
Speaker 1: push them, they will push yourself to sort of have
Speaker 1: it right from the start. But yeah, I agree. I
Speaker 1: don't have any siblings, and I one thing ideally, which
Speaker 1: is that I had a sibling, which is what I
Speaker 1: kept reminding myself on the really bad days when my
Speaker 1: kids were trying to kill each other. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I am so I'm very excited for this. I'm very
Speaker 1: happy to have spent time with you talking about the
Speaker 1: fact that I'm even having another child. And I do
Speaker 1: think it's going to make my son a better person,
Speaker 1: to be honest. And look, I know some fucking stellar
Speaker 1: only children, you being one of them. Kerrie Washington is
Speaker 1: an only child. My friend Angelie Cabral who has been
Speaker 1: on this podcast, isn't only just she has step siblings.
Speaker 1: But if you know, there are amazing only children in
Speaker 1: the world, incredible. But I do think for my son
Speaker 1: I'm like, good, look, he's the only grandchild, and the
Speaker 1: sun moon stars sets on this freaking kid. I cannot
Speaker 1: tell you how the attention to I mean, it is unreal,
Speaker 1: But I'm going off on a tangent. Are there any
Speaker 1: other pieces of advice you can give to anyone expecting
Speaker 1: their second because you know, I think one thing I
Speaker 1: had mentioned is think about your first birth a little bit. So,
Speaker 1: particularly if your first birth was bit traumatic or it
Speaker 1: didn't go as you want, I would always recommend you
Speaker 1: spend some time kind of debriefing what happened, particularly if
Speaker 1: you want to try for a natural labor second time.
Speaker 1: So get somebody to explain the first time why things
Speaker 1: went in the way that they did, so that you
Speaker 1: can understand it so that you can make an informed
Speaker 1: choice about your second birth and how you want things
Speaker 1: to go. I mean a lot of second time parents
Speaker 1: who are just, oh, we're just going to go with
Speaker 1: the flow, and that works for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: But if you did have a to cook time first time,
Speaker 1: I'd really recommend spending some time focusing. Usually mentioned I
Speaker 1: think before we started speaking, have a chat with a
Speaker 1: doo la or or a midwife or a prenatal coach
Speaker 1: to kind of process what happened. That's a that is
Speaker 1: something we've not touched on, which is an amazing piece
Speaker 1: of advice because I have had a lot of mom
Speaker 1: friends heal through their second labor experience. Their first was
Speaker 1: very traumatic and out of control feeling, and they were
Speaker 1: petrified to give birth again. And what it did was
Speaker 1: healed their first experience because they really went into their
Speaker 1: second in a different way or having processed the first one,
Speaker 1: and they came out of their second feeling better about
Speaker 1: their first one. And it's not just about your second
Speaker 1: being a perfect natural birth, having elective cesarian right, but
Speaker 1: you've really things are going to go the way you
Speaker 1: want them to this time, and you've made a plan
Speaker 1: and you feel much more in control. Inform yourself about everything,
Speaker 1: debrief and think about how you can take control, and yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you can put a lot of demons to bed from
Speaker 1: your first birth, which really helps with the kind of
Speaker 1: the bonding and the early days with the second baby.
Speaker 1: That is incredible advice for you guys listening. I'm so
Speaker 1: scared because I've had a fear of labor my entire life,
Speaker 1: and I overstudied and overprepared and over freaked out, and
Speaker 1: so nothing could have been as bad as I thought
Speaker 1: it was going to be, and it wasn't. It was great.
Speaker 1: It was like the best day of my life. It
Speaker 1: was absolutely wonderful. And it just occurred to me the
Speaker 1: other day, I was like, holy shit, I could have
Speaker 1: like an emergency C section, Like it could go completely
Speaker 1: differently than the first one. This pregnancy has been completely
Speaker 1: different than the first one. Is the trick to not
Speaker 1: compare it to the first time. What you're saying, you've
Speaker 1: not been anxious about it probably will make it easier
Speaker 1: this time because we carry that anxiety in that fear
Speaker 1: to birth with us. So I think that imp is
Speaker 1: what makes second verse easier. That obviously, if you had
Speaker 1: an easy time first time around. The one thing that
Speaker 1: I think somebody in your situation, if your first birth
Speaker 1: was fairly easy or fairly short, like the average first
Speaker 1: time neighbors about thirteen hours, So if it was shorter
Speaker 1: than that, research what to do if your baby comes
Speaker 1: before you get to the hospital or the first central
Speaker 1: or mid my thrived. I used to be a doer.
Speaker 1: I've been to many births, and I was an antenatal
Speaker 1: teacher or prenatal teacher. And I've been at many of
Speaker 1: what we call born before arrivals of second babies that
Speaker 1: don't wait for medical staff for arriving at hospitals. So
Speaker 1: just research that. There's a little bit about the book
Speaker 1: in it. But if it happens really quickly, it's a
Speaker 1: great sign. But just make sure you and whoever else
Speaker 1: is with you knows what to do if it progresses
Speaker 1: really quickly. Oh my god. We had a lantis more
Speaker 1: event on this podcast, and I think it was for
Speaker 1: a second actually had that sort of situation. The dula
Speaker 1: never made it, the midwife never made it, her baby
Speaker 1: was here hour, and her freaking husband. My husband would
Speaker 1: be fainted dead on the floor. There's no way. He
Speaker 1: can't even see blood. Just make sure he knows what
Speaker 1: to do if it happens really quickly. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I mean, anything is possible. I've been to three second
Speaker 1: verse that we're all born into the toilet? Do you
Speaker 1: call them toilets? And yes, literally, mom, no medical stuff
Speaker 1: and Mom just thought I need to go to the
Speaker 1: loo and you need to have a poo And it
Speaker 1: wasn't and it was a baby way that is, it
Speaker 1: had just before we go. Did you any of your
Speaker 1: four happened like that? Like? Was it so fast? So? Yeah,
Speaker 1: my first year in hospital, and they were first was
Speaker 1: really long. Second, I was in juice. It's quite quick
Speaker 1: because it's in juice. I had preclamps which I think so,
Speaker 1: which is actually one of the risks for mom if
Speaker 1: you have a very close age. So I got pregnant
Speaker 1: with my first one was six months old. Really yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I look back now, I think what was
Speaker 1: I doing? Yes, so that's what you were doing, but
Speaker 1: too much? Apparently. My third and fourth I had at home.
Speaker 1: I actually third babies, labor tends to get longer, bizarrely,
Speaker 1: so it's normally first long, second short, third medium. My
Speaker 1: fourth baby was I think just about an hour from
Speaker 1: first contraction to be born. Here was done at home, thankfully,
Speaker 1: So I had a birthpall at home and I rang,
Speaker 1: got my husband's ring the midwife, and the midwife turned
Speaker 1: up with her coat still on and I'm my baby's
Speaker 1: coming right now, and it was lovely. It was in Yeah,
Speaker 1: all my three kids are upstairs asleep and missed all
Speaker 1: of it. It It was kind of perfect, but would have
Speaker 1: freaked me out of it. Happened second time. Wow. So Sarah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of your time, and
Speaker 1: can you tell our listeners where we can find you,
Speaker 1: where they can get your book. Say, my website is
Speaker 1: just my name, Sarah well Smith. It's got a little
Speaker 1: hyphen in it, dot com. I'm on Instagram as Sarah
Speaker 1: or Smith. I'm on Facebook as Sarah Smith author, and
Speaker 1: I'm on to sir as the Baby Expert which started
Speaker 1: off as a bit of a joke, like a tongue
Speaker 1: in cheek thing, but it kind of stopped. You got
Speaker 1: printed on my books. I've had to keep it, so
Speaker 1: it's the Baby expert Um and the books available kind
Speaker 1: of everybody. You can buy books, great guys, if you
Speaker 1: are entertaining the idea of getting pregnant with another, if
Speaker 1: you're expecting your other, if you've brought your other home
Speaker 1: and everything's going to ship, whatever. I highly recommend this
Speaker 1: book because it has everything in it and it's so accessible.
Speaker 1: The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy number
Speaker 1: two and create a happy home for your firstborn and
Speaker 1: new arrival. Sarah Akwill Smith, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming to us from England from your very cold, beautiful place.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you so much everybody, and you guys.
Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts, questions, comments, you know where
Speaker 1: to find me. It's Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.
Speaker 1: Thank you all for tuning into katie Crib and for
Speaker 1: your beautiful messages and reviews. I absolutely love connecting with
Speaker 1: you and hearing your stories and questions. So email me
Speaker 1: at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. We may
Speaker 1: just feature you on an episode, so hit me up. Thanks, guys.
Speaker 1: Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in
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