WEBVTT - Behind the Murderers

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, Social Sluts, Welcome back to another episode of Real

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<v Speaker 1>Time Crime. I'm one of your hosts, Leo Lamar, and

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<v Speaker 1>I have with me my wonderful co host Hattie Mellencamp,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course we've got sometimes Dmitri, who you know

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<v Speaker 1>and love sometimes. Today we'll be discussing mother quarantining her

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<v Speaker 1>COVID positive son on the trunk of her car. L

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<v Speaker 1>O l continued investigation regarding the accidental murder on set

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<v Speaker 1>of Alec Baldwin's rust Ahmad Aurbury and rounding it out

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<v Speaker 1>with the death of Robert Durst, before we head over

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<v Speaker 1>to an interview with Joe Burlinger, the director of crime

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<v Speaker 1>scene The Times Square Killer, which is trending on Netflix

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<v Speaker 1>right now. I told you all to watch it. I

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<v Speaker 1>hope you did your homework, and hopefully we can get

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<v Speaker 1>to voice military before we close up for today. But first, Teddy,

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<v Speaker 1>any updates on finding your missing cell phone? Nothing, you guys, Nothing,

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<v Speaker 1>not one from none of you. And you know what,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm disappointed. I feel like a lot of your listeners

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<v Speaker 1>may live an asthmen and may have seen it. And

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<v Speaker 1>but I will tell you one thing that did happen.

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<v Speaker 1>I opened a drawer and I saw a piece of

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<v Speaker 1>the purse. I saw and I was like, but really,

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<v Speaker 1>it was just the piece when you decide to not

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<v Speaker 1>wear it as a Fannie pack, when you decided to

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<v Speaker 1>carry it like this, that that's all it was. And

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<v Speaker 1>that just made you more sad, and it just made

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<v Speaker 1>me more sad that I'm still without and I've now

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<v Speaker 1>had to learn, Look how big this phone is. Though

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<v Speaker 1>it's not bigger than my person, Yeah it's bigger than

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<v Speaker 1>my head. But I'm how's your voice? I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>she's emotional about I'm about the missing Fannie pack. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what's been happening. Nothing's been found, but I do

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<v Speaker 1>at least have a regular phone. I had to settle

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<v Speaker 1>on light blue, which is an ideal for a forty

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<v Speaker 1>year old mother. But sometimes you take what you can get,

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<v Speaker 1>and I just can I just say one thing real quick,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel badly. Leah's face lit up when you said

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<v Speaker 1>I opened a drawer and found a pie a piece

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<v Speaker 1>of the fan pack. She literally thought like someone sent

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<v Speaker 1>you a part of it, like a ransom thing, and

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<v Speaker 1>you were like, but it's just an extra part, and

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<v Speaker 1>she was like, we're going to have a real crime

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<v Speaker 1>on our hands, you know what I mean? Just the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of someone taunting Teddy with like a Louis Batons

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<v Speaker 1>liver is someone did taunted me with that. I was like, also,

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<v Speaker 1>who does pieces like? Then I had to look it

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<v Speaker 1>up on Revolve and see why there was a missing piece,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was like, oh, I never took that piece

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<v Speaker 1>to Aspen. It's just devastating, really it is. But all

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<v Speaker 1>of our listeners who were dying for us to move on,

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<v Speaker 1>I say, hey, we got some I say, you haven't

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<v Speaker 1>been without a phone for seven days, and I would

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<v Speaker 1>lose my mind. I mean, my mind is already. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>be fair. Let's be fair. Are you having a coffee

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<v Speaker 1>right now? Sometimes? Yes? What are you drinking? Sure? No,

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<v Speaker 1>it is a it's a coffee, it's it's a it's

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<v Speaker 1>a vodka tonic. I have to be honest. I'm having

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<v Speaker 1>a glass of wine because I just came from my

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<v Speaker 1>other podcast and we were raging. That's not a slap

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<v Speaker 1>in the face. I'm sorry. Yeah, first of all, how

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<v Speaker 1>dare you? I can't help it. Sometimes this is what happens.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what. I'll just say, I appreciate you calling it.

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<v Speaker 1>The other podcast your main. I feel like you're where

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<v Speaker 1>you're playing squeezing where you are the main. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard to describe the level of me. I am.

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<v Speaker 1>It's either I'm talking true crime or I'm talking trap

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<v Speaker 1>about housewives. It's it's really hard, which is another crime

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<v Speaker 1>in and of itself. It's a different type. Yeah, speaking

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<v Speaker 1>of a different type of crime, shall we head into

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<v Speaker 1>our hot topics for today? And Lucian, I mean, let's

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<v Speaker 1>just started off with a Texas mother who's charged after

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<v Speaker 1>her fourteen year old son is found in the trunk

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<v Speaker 1>of her car to drive through COVID testing site. She

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<v Speaker 1>claims that he tested positive and needed to be quarantine,

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<v Speaker 1>so she's being faced with endangerment charges. And oh boy.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah Beam, forty two from the Cypress Fairbanks area near Houston,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's Texas. What do you want us to

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<v Speaker 1>say about it, allegedly packed the team in the trunk

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<v Speaker 1>as she drove to the testing site after he tested

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<v Speaker 1>positive for the virus on January three to get another test.

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<v Speaker 1>They issued a warrant for her arrest on Friday, and

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<v Speaker 1>please say Beam pulled to the giant pulled up to

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<v Speaker 1>the giant tent set up and the Health services director

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<v Speaker 1>at the site hurt a noise in her trunk. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>this is what I swear. I'm like, am I reading

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<v Speaker 1>an article from the Onion? But are the same? She

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<v Speaker 1>brought him to get retested. It's not like she knew

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<v Speaker 1>they were gonna have to like test him. He's in

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<v Speaker 1>the trunk. She didn't see anything wrong with this. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's because she didn't want to get herself. She didn't

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<v Speaker 1>want to get COVID. Yeah, she said that she was

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<v Speaker 1>protecting herself from the virus. Well, I can tell you

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<v Speaker 1>guys this from personal experience. So yesterday, how's your cough? Leah?

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<v Speaker 1>I muted so people wouldn't have to hear it. I

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<v Speaker 1>saw it though. Um yesterday I get a call. I

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<v Speaker 1>take the kids to the bus. They had to get

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<v Speaker 1>COVID tested at nine am. Um. The day before, I

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<v Speaker 1>get a call it nine thirty on Monday, Hey, um, teddy,

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<v Speaker 1>Mrs sari Abe cruises in the nurse's office. He had

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<v Speaker 1>a headache for a minute, you have to come get him.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was like, he had a headache for a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>and did we lock him in the trunk of the car.

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<v Speaker 1>And honestly, I almost dead. I go, um, does he

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<v Speaker 1>feel sick? Does he have a temperature? And they're like,

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<v Speaker 1>he's logged as an all this so he cannot be

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<v Speaker 1>at school until he gets a negtive COVID test he

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<v Speaker 1>gets in the car. I'm honestly like pedals in the medal, like, Cruise,

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<v Speaker 1>unless you were sick, do not go to the nurse's office. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>He's like, Mom, I really just wanted more water. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know what you want me to say, but I

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<v Speaker 1>feel the moment of locking your kids in the trunk

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<v Speaker 1>for that. Yeah, this was, um, I feel it. This

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<v Speaker 1>woman locking her kid in the trunk. Well, it's two

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<v Speaker 1>seconds away from hiring an uber to pick him up.

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<v Speaker 1>I was two seconds away from locking Cruise in the

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<v Speaker 1>trunk for going to the nurses office for a second

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<v Speaker 1>of a headache too that he didn't have that. Then

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<v Speaker 1>he the second he got in the car, goes, can

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<v Speaker 1>I go still get a football? No, you just threatened

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<v Speaker 1>to have COVID at school and I have to pay

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<v Speaker 1>two hundred and fifty dollars to get a COVID test

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<v Speaker 1>for you to go back tomorrow. Why don't they have

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<v Speaker 1>COVID tests at school? They do, but they don't have

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<v Speaker 1>the rapids. You can go the next day. Why didn't

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<v Speaker 1>cruise have water? He did have water. He just asked

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<v Speaker 1>his teacher for more water because he had run out.

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<v Speaker 1>And then he said, I'm getting a headache from not

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<v Speaker 1>having water, and then that's considered an ILLNESST so he's dehydrated. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>is he turning into a white woman in l A

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much? So you know what, the next time he

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<v Speaker 1>does that, he may end up in my trunk. Hilarious.

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<v Speaker 1>I got. I was like, Okay, we're gonna start off

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<v Speaker 1>with the drive through the woman that that locker sound,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're all gonna think that's ridiculous, and then we'll

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<v Speaker 1>move on to the story. But okay, fine, I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>really put him in the trunk unless it was an STV.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh I thought you said okay, SUV. Then it's like

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<v Speaker 1>it goes up. Oh my god, you guys are so

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<v Speaker 1>sensitive today. Came in here. Yeah, I'm sorry, but you

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<v Speaker 1>you came in here hot, being like look at me.

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<v Speaker 1>I just came here from my other podcast, and I

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<v Speaker 1>dressed up for them. I don't dress up for you guys,

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<v Speaker 1>and also do like my new setup. And now we

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<v Speaker 1>feel We're like in the same setup. You thought I

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<v Speaker 1>was in the same setup. Don't you see the basketball?

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<v Speaker 1>Who Okay, I do know that you're I'm sure you're

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<v Speaker 1>a wonderful mother, but what you're doing is you're sitting

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<v Speaker 1>here drinking wine and you're like, oh, my kid needed water,

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<v Speaker 1>screw him, throwing him in the trunk of the I

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<v Speaker 1>guess I can't make jokes today. Fine, No, you can

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<v Speaker 1>just take him to make get another COVID test. Should

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<v Speaker 1>we get into Alec Baldwin speaking of good parenting again?

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<v Speaker 1>Hot on the Segway. All right, We're ready for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Following reports that actor Alec Baldwin's cell phone had not

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<v Speaker 1>yet been turned over to officials investigating the fatal shooting

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<v Speaker 1>on the Rust film set, weeks after a search warant

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<v Speaker 1>was granted, Alex said on Saturday that any suggestion that

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<v Speaker 1>he was not complying with law enforcement was in fact

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<v Speaker 1>a lie. The police in Santa Fe, New Mexico, obtain

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<v Speaker 1>a search warrant more than three three weeks ago, granting

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<v Speaker 1>it access to information on Mr Baldwin's phone related to

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<v Speaker 1>the October shooting, during which a gun that Alec was

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<v Speaker 1>rehearsing with fire to live round, killing the movie cinematographer

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<v Speaker 1>and wounding its director. Filming himself from the driver's seat

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<v Speaker 1>of a parked car, Alex said that the process for

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<v Speaker 1>recovering information from his phone takes time and involved the

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<v Speaker 1>authorities in New Mexico coordinating with the authorities where he

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<v Speaker 1>lives a k New York. Someone from another state can't

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<v Speaker 1>come to you and say give me your cell phone,

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<v Speaker 1>Alex said in the video, adding that they have to

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<v Speaker 1>specify exactly what they want. They can't just go through

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<v Speaker 1>your phone and take, you know, your photos or your

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<v Speaker 1>love letters to your wife or what have you. According

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<v Speaker 1>to an afidavit filed in the application for the search

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<v Speaker 1>warrant granted by a judge in New Mexico in December sixteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>Detective Alexander Hancock asked Mr Baldwin and his lawyer on

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<v Speaker 1>the day of the fail shooting to hand over his phone,

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<v Speaker 1>but was told to obtain a warrant. When the search

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<v Speaker 1>warrant for Mr Baldwin's phone was granted, officials in Santa

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<v Speaker 1>Fe requested help from the sheriff office in Suvolk County

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<v Speaker 1>and New York, where Mr Baldwin was and has a home. Apparently,

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<v Speaker 1>they said that the crust the request had been forwarded

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<v Speaker 1>to the county's district attorney's office to work out the

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<v Speaker 1>differences and laws between the two states. Okay, so why

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<v Speaker 1>do you guys think that this investigation is lower than usual?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think Alex Alec is I think the part

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<v Speaker 1>of the problem is Hilaria You mean Hillary? Well, all

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<v Speaker 1>I know is that Hilaria Baldwin's Instagram is something that

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<v Speaker 1>I go deep down. I can't turn it off, like

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<v Speaker 1>I I need to understand so many dynamics in regards

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<v Speaker 1>to her. Like I'm watching it, I'm like, are we

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<v Speaker 1>really going to believe that she has seven DTYO kids?

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<v Speaker 1>Was zero help? She's constantly breastfeeding. There's no there's all

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<v Speaker 1>of it. And then I read and something that said

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<v Speaker 1>as Alec Baldwin struggling because of his wife Laria, And

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<v Speaker 1>and now I don't know what do you guys think.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like this case is just I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>I actually don't feel like it's moving slower than the normal.

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<v Speaker 1>I think most cases take a while. I think we're

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<v Speaker 1>just looking into it and waiting for some like juicy

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<v Speaker 1>headlines or something, and they're just not there. You think

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<v Speaker 1>this was just an accident. I mean, it's possible. But

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<v Speaker 1>either way, this little stuff is coming out like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>he's not complying with the cell phone. To me, that's

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<v Speaker 1>just I think that's the media trying to spin a

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<v Speaker 1>narrative allege. I think that there's just no story and

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to make a story out of it. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it seems like a terrible tragedy and horrible

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<v Speaker 1>accident and maybe no one I don't know. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if they're trying to figure out who, if someone

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<v Speaker 1>should go to jail for this. Um. I mean, there

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<v Speaker 1>was a live round in the gun, and there should

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<v Speaker 1>never be a live round, so someone is responsible for that,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know what the judicial system will say,

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<v Speaker 1>but I don't I don't know. I don't know what

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to figure out with Alex Boon. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're trying to see how much he knew.

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<v Speaker 1>But either way, I just don't see that he's at fault.

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<v Speaker 1>I just in my mind, I just don't think he

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<v Speaker 1>had all the information. From what I have heard in

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<v Speaker 1>regards to Alec Baldwin, I don't think he's the type

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<v Speaker 1>of person that you want to give all the information to.

0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he's that easy going type that you're like,

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna vent to you or tell you what's

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.600
<v Speaker 1>going on. I think he's more that you you shield

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.920
<v Speaker 1>if things are going wrong. I hope that people speak

0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.679
<v Speaker 1>about me like this. One day. It was the way

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 1>I was speaking of positive Yeah. I wouldn't be left

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.440
<v Speaker 1>out of all information, you know. I just I feel

0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.160
<v Speaker 1>like ignorance is bliss um. But guests, who's in the

0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.160
<v Speaker 1>waiting room? I'm so excited, And shall we do a

0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.559
<v Speaker 1>little intro and then bring him in or yeah, that's

0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 1>all you? I'm why don't we take a quick break

0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:14.760
<v Speaker 1>and regroup? And thanks Dmitri for knowing what we need sometimes.

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Thank you sum Sommy, and welcome back to real time Crime.

0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.959
<v Speaker 1>We have with us my friend Joe Burlinger, who is

0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:42.120
<v Speaker 1>the director of Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer, which

0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 1>is trending on Netflix. If you don't know Joe, he

0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:51.240
<v Speaker 1>is a filmmaker and producer particularly focused on true crime documentaries.

0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Joe's films and docuseries draw massive attention to social justice

0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.040
<v Speaker 1>issues in the United States and abroad. In such films

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 1>as Brothers Keeper, Paradise Laws, The Child Murders at robin

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Hood Hills, Crude White, United States of America Versus James J. Boulger,

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.680
<v Speaker 1>and Intend to Destroy, Death, Denial and Depiction. He's also

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.280
<v Speaker 1>best known for the film series Paradise Lost, which documents

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.320
<v Speaker 1>the murder trial and the subsequent legal battles of the

0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.640
<v Speaker 1>three Arkansas teenagers Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jessie mus

0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Kelly Jr. Convicted of murder. The film series brought mainstream

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.960
<v Speaker 1>attention to this case, and a ton of celebrities took

0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.280
<v Speaker 1>up the case of getting these young men out of

0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:33.920
<v Speaker 1>prison and getting Ecles off of death row. The mainstream

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.720
<v Speaker 1>attention brought on by the documentary series allowed for a

0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 1>well finance legal team to investigate every lead on the case.

0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.440
<v Speaker 1>He's also spearheaded and directed to twenty nineteen projects centered

0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.720
<v Speaker 1>on the infamous serial killer Ted Bundy, the Netflix docuseries

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Conversations with the Killer, the Ted Bunny Tapes, and the

0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 1>drama film Extremely Wicked, Shocking, the Evil and Vile starring

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Zac Efron, And then, finally, in collaboration with journalist Greg Milner,

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 1>Joe wrote the book Metallica. The Monster lives about his

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.360
<v Speaker 1>early career, accomplishments and challenges forging his path in the

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>world of film. This book is centered around the filming

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 1>of Metallica Some Kind of Monster, and Joe is a

0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>dear friend of mine from back in my days in

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.520
<v Speaker 1>New York and a very very honored and excited to

0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 1>have him here. And hello, Joe Lea, how are you? Joe?

0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm great? How are you? Were so excited you're here? Here,

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Joe are We're so fabulous? How are you? I'm good,

0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm good. Great to see. Joe and I have known

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 1>each other for I don't want to say by almost

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:43.000
<v Speaker 1>a decade now. More than that, perhaps I'm trying to

0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 1>pretend him twenty How did you guys? Mean that's how

0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 1>about all of you you've seen? When I'm first at you,

0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, thank you so much. It was only

0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 1>a couple of years off. We met at Radical Media

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>many months ago in New York City, and I can't

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 1>even remember at that time which project you were working on,

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.960
<v Speaker 1>because so many more have come out since then, but

0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.400
<v Speaker 1>I think it was around actually Paradise Loss, it might

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 1>have been, And I mean, that's probably one of the

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 1>most iconic projects to ever come out. Uh, I guess

0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.560
<v Speaker 1>I have to agree with you. I mean, you did

0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.120
<v Speaker 1>get someone off of death Row. I do think Paradise Lost,

0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 1>does you know? Is up there in the annals of

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>true crime. Um, But I'll let you say that, not me.

0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.440
<v Speaker 1>It's perfect. And when you were not here, I already

0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>gave you a beautiful introduction listing all of your credits

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 1>and all that you've really contributed to since thatt to

0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Society and we know that you know you were a

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:59.080
<v Speaker 1>true crime aficionado, but your career also spans more than

0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 1>just true crime, and we'll get into that a little bit.

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.200
<v Speaker 1>But we are here today to talk about your new

0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:10.919
<v Speaker 1>documentary that's trending on Netflix, Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer.

0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I watched every episode obsessively, already posted about an Instagram,

0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.680
<v Speaker 1>told everyone to watch it. I absolutely loved it. It's

0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.800
<v Speaker 1>a three part limited series on Netflix right now. By

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:24.480
<v Speaker 1>the way, for all of you that haven't watched it,

0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.159
<v Speaker 1>do your homework before listening and then come back to

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.920
<v Speaker 1>this episode just in case you don't want any you know, spoilers.

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.960
<v Speaker 1>But this documentary examines the notorious case of Richard Cottingham.

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Also known as the Torso Killer, who claimed to have raped, slaughtered,

0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.280
<v Speaker 1>and mutilated more than a hundred women between nineteen sixty

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 1>seven and night. So, um, I know that we all

0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.960
<v Speaker 1>watched it, we all loved it, we all binged it. Joe,

0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:57.840
<v Speaker 1>fabulous work. Yet again, as always, can I say, I know,

0:17:58.000 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 1>I know this is what you do as a director,

0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.639
<v Speaker 1>but I really enjoyed you took me back to that time.

0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.440
<v Speaker 1>It's one thing sometimes you're just watching something You're like, Okay,

0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to piece together, but knowing time square the

0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.280
<v Speaker 1>way time squares now is not that So you really

0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.119
<v Speaker 1>brought me back to I'm gonna stop short of saying

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:15.840
<v Speaker 1>I felt like a sex worker in Time Square, but

0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 1>I felt like I was in that time and I

0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.159
<v Speaker 1>thought that was fantastic and I thought it really I

0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 1>appreciate that. I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that way

0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.280
<v Speaker 1>because that was really an important, you know mission. And

0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, first of all, the series is about how

0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.880
<v Speaker 1>a location. It's not just the story of Cottingham, uh,

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.320
<v Speaker 1>it's the story of the whole series is rooted in

0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.320
<v Speaker 1>how does the location and a in a particular time

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.320
<v Speaker 1>period and societal values contribute to a crime. So season

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.879
<v Speaker 1>one we did Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles, talked about

0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 1>the homelessness problem and all sorts of l A policies

0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 1>that drove people to create this skid row in l A,

0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.720
<v Speaker 1>which contributed to the perception of crime at the Cecil

0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.119
<v Speaker 1>and this and for this season actually Time Square in

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.600
<v Speaker 1>the seventies. I remember, I was a teenager. My first

0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:09.040
<v Speaker 1>love before before movies, was actually magic, doing magic tricks.

0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.200
<v Speaker 1>And there was a magic a very famous magic store

0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 1>in Times Square called Lu Tannin's, which is still a

0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.600
<v Speaker 1>very famous magic store. But they moved to the uh

0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 1>they moved more downtown, but they were in the heart

0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.200
<v Speaker 1>of Times Square at the time. I was, you know,

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.280
<v Speaker 1>a teenager, and it's like a totally different world on

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.600
<v Speaker 1>so many levels. The fact that my parents would allow

0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.040
<v Speaker 1>me to take the train from the suburbs, which I did,

0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.879
<v Speaker 1>and you get off the Grand Central you walk, you know,

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.120
<v Speaker 1>four or five blocks from Grand Central to Times Square

0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.639
<v Speaker 1>as a teenager, you know, I just remember vividly, just

0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:45.399
<v Speaker 1>you know, walking, you know, looking in the windows of

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:47.800
<v Speaker 1>Times Square, of the sex joints, you know, as a

0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 1>fourteen or fifteen year old looking at things you're not

0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.480
<v Speaker 1>supposed to look at and being simultaneously you know, titillated,

0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.040
<v Speaker 1>I will admit, and also like scared to death with

0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 1>my wallet in my front pocket and like, you know,

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.359
<v Speaker 1>you're taking your life into your hands. Uh, you know

0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 1>when you went into Times Square. And in fact, the

0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.080
<v Speaker 1>whole idea to do the series is I took my

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 1>daughter cut to twenty nineteen, and I took my twenty

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 1>year old daughter to Hamilton's over the holidays in December

0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.399
<v Speaker 1>of twenty nine, before we knew of COVID. What a

0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.520
<v Speaker 1>different time, you know, not not too long ago, but

0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.159
<v Speaker 1>it seems like, you know, a long time ago. And

0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.359
<v Speaker 1>we you know, we went to a mattenee of Hamilton's

0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.560
<v Speaker 1>and then kind of came out at you know, dinner

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.600
<v Speaker 1>time Times Square, the lights, the action, the you know,

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.119
<v Speaker 1>Disney logos. And I said to my daughter, and I

0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.560
<v Speaker 1>just seeing my daughter's face, how excited she was to

0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.280
<v Speaker 1>be in Time Square during the holidays. And I said,

0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, when I was you know, your age, and

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.440
<v Speaker 1>I went into Time Square, you would be taking your

0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:45.159
<v Speaker 1>life into your hands. And then all of a sudden,

0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, oh, because we had been talking with Netflix

0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.159
<v Speaker 1>about what's a good idea for season two. I'm like, yes,

0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 1>Time Square in the seventies would be it would be

0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.560
<v Speaker 1>great because, you know, not for gratuitous reasons. It's it's

0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.560
<v Speaker 1>just a particular time and place that all of these

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.399
<v Speaker 1>forces came together to create this horrible legacy of predatory

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.720
<v Speaker 1>behavior that you know, and unnoticed and people just didn't care,

0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, And that is an issue still today that

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.800
<v Speaker 1>sex workers are neglected. Crimes against sex workers are treated

0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.480
<v Speaker 1>differently than than crimes against other people. And you know,

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 1>that's that's a problem. Everyone deserves justice, and whether it's

0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:23.040
<v Speaker 1>saying a little who I did a series about a

0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.320
<v Speaker 1>year and a half ago who killed with impunity because

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:31.000
<v Speaker 1>he for forty years because he preyed upon uh, women

0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:36.400
<v Speaker 1>of color who were sex workers, or Richard Cottingham, it's

0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's just just nobody seemed to care. Now. No.

0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.040
<v Speaker 1>I know why I connected with this because I grew

0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.960
<v Speaker 1>up taking the train into New York from arriving at

0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.080
<v Speaker 1>Grand Central and I had the same type of thing

0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.760
<v Speaker 1>the memories of Times Square like that. Do you I

0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:54.560
<v Speaker 1>just was curious, do you feel like they thought? I know.

0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.159
<v Speaker 1>It's also there's some just kickiness to it to some

0:21:57.200 --> 0:21:59.920
<v Speaker 1>statistics stuff. Do you think people thought if I kill

0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:01.480
<v Speaker 1>because I know the l a strangler and all that

0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:03.480
<v Speaker 1>that was sex workers? All was it just I can

0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.560
<v Speaker 1>get away with this because nobody gives ship. I think

0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:09.240
<v Speaker 1>that's you know, Cottingham started off. You know, we later

0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:13.440
<v Speaker 1>learned Cottingham started off not killing sex workers, but younger

0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.760
<v Speaker 1>teenage girls and a cup and a nurse who was

0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.920
<v Speaker 1>not a teenage girl. You know. His early killings were

0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 1>in and around his hometown in New Jersey, across the river,

0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:28.159
<v Speaker 1>and and those prompted investigations and things started heating up.

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.040
<v Speaker 1>And I think it was it was a big part

0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.600
<v Speaker 1>of the reason that he then shifted his attention to

0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Times Square. You know, he worked at Blue Cross and

0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Blue Shield, which was on Third Avenue and not too

0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.359
<v Speaker 1>far from Times Square, and he just realized that he

0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 1>could get away with us, you know, and you know, honestly,

0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:50.480
<v Speaker 1>particularly in Los Angeles, you know, police were famous in

0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:53.359
<v Speaker 1>this time period if if a sex worker was found

0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 1>in a dumpster or in a back alley murdered, they

0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:01.240
<v Speaker 1>would literally classify it as as no human involved, you know,

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 1>the phrase they use because it wasn't worth. What that

0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.880
<v Speaker 1>meant was We're not going to put our resources into

0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.359
<v Speaker 1>this murder because it's a sex worker and who cares?

0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:13.960
<v Speaker 1>So um, it was a troubling trend, and you know

0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:16.160
<v Speaker 1>it's gotten better, but it's you know, there's still such

0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.400
<v Speaker 1>a stigma against sex work in general, and a stigma

0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:22.960
<v Speaker 1>against murders of sex workers. You know. It's so interesting

0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 1>by the way that Times Square is a character in

0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.600
<v Speaker 1>the documentary. And I remember growing up in New York

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.120
<v Speaker 1>and it was a Broadway playground when I was a kid.

0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.960
<v Speaker 1>But when I was a kid, going south of St.

0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:41.280
<v Speaker 1>Mark's was terrified m and I remember you could buy

0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.840
<v Speaker 1>a fake I D on the street for twenty bucks

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 1>and you would see people shooting up on the street,

0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.239
<v Speaker 1>just crusties or whatever people would call them, in the

0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:53.639
<v Speaker 1>park nearby, shooting up. Now it's not like that either.

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.240
<v Speaker 1>And then by the time I was working a radical,

0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:00.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, St. Mark's had kind of become a play ground,

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:03.600
<v Speaker 1>and then the gentrification moved down and I would go

0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:06.040
<v Speaker 1>to Bushwick and I would feel the same way where

0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 1>I would feel, oh God, it's so dangerous here. And

0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.960
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to see how all of these areas keep

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:17.560
<v Speaker 1>getting gentrified as the city. I would say grows up. Yeah,

0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:20.320
<v Speaker 1>well it's well, Manhattan has become a place for mainly

0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:23.440
<v Speaker 1>the wealthy, and you know, people who aren't don't have means,

0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 1>have been pushed out of Manhattan. I mean that's not completely.

0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, there are obviously middle class people in Manhattan,

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.399
<v Speaker 1>but generally it's become an island of the wealthy, you know,

0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:38.800
<v Speaker 1>the international wealthy, and the crime gets put pushed, pushed

0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:42.040
<v Speaker 1>to the outer boroughs. The question I had when I

0:24:42.119 --> 0:24:45.399
<v Speaker 1>was watching it and watching Cottingham, how do you think

0:24:45.600 --> 0:24:50.200
<v Speaker 1>that somebody like him is able to maintain a regular

0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 1>household and being married and have a family and live

0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:59.280
<v Speaker 1>this completely other life, Like how are you able to

0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:02.720
<v Speaker 1>live both ways? Like how can you trick your wife?

0:25:02.720 --> 0:25:04.440
<v Speaker 1>How can you trick your friends? How can you trick

0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:07.480
<v Speaker 1>your employee, like the people that you work with? Yeah,

0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:09.400
<v Speaker 1>now that's that's what you hit the nail on the head.

0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:13.080
<v Speaker 1>That's that's the question I'm obsessed with, you know, And

0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:17.040
<v Speaker 1>it's it's whenever I do a serial killer show, some

0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.080
<v Speaker 1>people say, why are you giving him a platform? Why

0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:23.160
<v Speaker 1>you give you know, there's there is some pushback today

0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.080
<v Speaker 1>on doing shows like this, But the reason I keep

0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:28.960
<v Speaker 1>returning to this subject, is it just first of all

0:25:29.000 --> 0:25:32.920
<v Speaker 1>as a as a cautionary tale to people that these

0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:36.600
<v Speaker 1>people exist. But more importantly, you know, we we uh,

0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:40.840
<v Speaker 1>we want to think that people who do evil are

0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:45.560
<v Speaker 1>evil all the time, that they're that that you know,

0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 1>like in you know, Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lambs,

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.119
<v Speaker 1>that they just look creepy in the moment you see them,

0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, to protect yourself because they present as evil.

0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:57.840
<v Speaker 1>But that but the having done true crime to thirty

0:25:57.920 --> 0:26:01.440
<v Speaker 1>years and done real cases, you know, generally speaking, whether

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:07.000
<v Speaker 1>it's you know, a pedophilic priest or Bernie made Off

0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:10.159
<v Speaker 1>or Richard Cottingham, the people who do evil in this

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.840
<v Speaker 1>world are generally people that you least expect and most

0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.560
<v Speaker 1>often trust. And that's the disturbing thing because they get

0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:19.920
<v Speaker 1>off on that, right, they get off on it. And

0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:25.240
<v Speaker 1>also from a you know, from a just warning people

0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:28.640
<v Speaker 1>out there, like you know, just because somebody seems trustworthy,

0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:33.679
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a certain threashold you should you know,

0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:36.400
<v Speaker 1>not give give your trust to people, you know, which

0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:39.480
<v Speaker 1>I know is a is a down message. But you know,

0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:41.480
<v Speaker 1>when I decided to do the Bundy stuff, you know,

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.879
<v Speaker 1>I did Bundy both the movie with zac Efron and

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:50.680
<v Speaker 1>the unscripted conversations with the Killer on Netflix. And when

0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:53.320
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity first was presented me to me to do

0:26:53.359 --> 0:26:55.840
<v Speaker 1>the Bundy tapes because the author of the book that

0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:58.000
<v Speaker 1>the tapes were based on reached out and said, Hey,

0:26:58.040 --> 0:26:59.919
<v Speaker 1>I have these tapes from thirty years ago. Do you

0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:02.920
<v Speaker 1>think there's something here? And I thought to myself, well, God,

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Bundy is such a well known story. Everybody knows the

0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:08.320
<v Speaker 1>story of Bundy. But I was sitting around dinner with

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:11.160
<v Speaker 1>my two daughters, my college aged daughters, who were home

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 1>for vacation, and I asked him, you know who Ted

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Bundy is? And both both of my daughters are incredibly

0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:21.760
<v Speaker 1>bright women at the time, one was going to Columbia,

0:27:21.840 --> 0:27:24.119
<v Speaker 1>one was just starting at M I t s you know,

0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:27.600
<v Speaker 1>smart kids. And I know that sounds like I'm not

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 1>just coming from a bob but but but neither one

0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:35.680
<v Speaker 1>of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And I said, really, well,

0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:38.199
<v Speaker 1>ask some of your friends. And like the feedback I

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 1>got from twenty year olds twenty two year olds was

0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:43.480
<v Speaker 1>we don't know who Ted Bundy is or wasn't he

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:47.560
<v Speaker 1>a serial killer or whatever? And that encouraged me to like, well,

0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:50.240
<v Speaker 1>now it's time to retell his story because you can

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:53.040
<v Speaker 1>never tell the story of this man enough as a

0:27:53.080 --> 0:27:57.240
<v Speaker 1>cautionary tale that just because somebody looks and acts trustworthy

0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:59.399
<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean you should trust them. And that's that's the

0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:02.480
<v Speaker 1>thing that Bob goles my mind is, you know, is

0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:05.600
<v Speaker 1>how people can you know, be that deceptive? And have

0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:07.920
<v Speaker 1>you know Bundy had a girl. I mean, the whole

0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:13.639
<v Speaker 1>movie was, you know, extremely wicked, was through the eyes

0:28:13.680 --> 0:28:16.760
<v Speaker 1>of Lily Collins, who was the girlfriend. And she believed

0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:20.040
<v Speaker 1>in Bundy for years because he was such a wonderful

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:25.040
<v Speaker 1>father and it's not surrogate father to her daughter and

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:28.440
<v Speaker 1>a wonderful boyfriend. Uh. And you know, so how people

0:28:28.480 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 1>do these things is incredible. But you know, you can

0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:35.160
<v Speaker 1>take that a step further. How do you know climate

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:40.040
<v Speaker 1>denying oil executives go to bed at night, you know,

0:28:42.000 --> 0:28:45.440
<v Speaker 1>you know, perpetrating the system that's killing the planet apparently

0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:51.520
<v Speaker 1>relatively exactly. So like like people's ability to compartmentalize and

0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:54.640
<v Speaker 1>still think they're good people, uh, you know is part

0:28:54.680 --> 0:28:56.680
<v Speaker 1>of human nature. But when it comes to doing the

0:28:56.760 --> 0:29:00.360
<v Speaker 1>things that these particular monsters do and then having a

0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:04.120
<v Speaker 1>normal home life is mind boggling. The other reason I

0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:08.920
<v Speaker 1>wanted to do Cottingham is and you know, obviously many

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:11.960
<v Speaker 1>crime aficionados know his name, but for the most part,

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 1>most people don't know who Richard Cottingham is. Everyone knows

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 1>who Bundy is, everyone knows who Gaycy is. Who knows

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:23.320
<v Speaker 1>who dam Or is um, you know, but Cottingham is

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:25.680
<v Speaker 1>not on that list. And yet he might have killed

0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.360
<v Speaker 1>over a hundred women in a horrifying way. And why

0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:32.360
<v Speaker 1>don't we know him because he killed sex workers and

0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:35.280
<v Speaker 1>nobody seems to carry sex workers as victims. Well, and

0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:37.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that's what's nice about you know, you said

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 1>that people sometimes say, why are you giving this person

0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:42.640
<v Speaker 1>a platform? It is that What you also do is

0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you take these victims and you explain who they were,

0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 1>and you you know, you you hear from one of

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 1>their kids and you and so you actually humanize them

0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:54.120
<v Speaker 1>and you're not leaving them behind. Is just somebody that

0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:57.480
<v Speaker 1>didn't matter to society quote unquote that just got killed

0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.040
<v Speaker 1>and all the focuses on the killer. You kind of,

0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, you bring these people in life and you

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 1>realize these were real people, regardless of what they did

0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:07.320
<v Speaker 1>for a living. They did it for certain reasons, which

0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.880
<v Speaker 1>is what the life that they had, but it doesn't

0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:12.760
<v Speaker 1>mean that they should just be, you know, just a

0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.719
<v Speaker 1>nameless person in a in a story. And Joe just

0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 1>as zoom out for a second, because clearly we're not

0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:20.840
<v Speaker 1>just going to be talking about crime scene. We've already

0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:25.160
<v Speaker 1>started covering other cases that you've covered, and we talked

0:30:25.200 --> 0:30:28.120
<v Speaker 1>about the Cecil Hotel on here and I'm personally obsessed

0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 1>with the Elite Lam. I still think it's the Elevator game.

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:33.440
<v Speaker 1>But other than that, I just want to say, you know,

0:30:34.280 --> 0:30:39.680
<v Speaker 1>Joe as one of the most brilliant and prolific documentarians

0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:46.200
<v Speaker 1>of our generation and creating art that actually has purpose

0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 1>and winning many Emmy's. You know, your work spans so

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:54.640
<v Speaker 1>many cases. You covered the West Memphis three, you got

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Damian Eccles off of Death Row. You know your art

0:30:59.800 --> 0:31:03.480
<v Speaker 1>how a function and that's I would say, almost rare

0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:07.120
<v Speaker 1>these days. And so we are really honored that you

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:09.600
<v Speaker 1>are coming here today on Real Time Crime with me

0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:13.240
<v Speaker 1>and Teddy and Dmitri to talk about all things true

0:31:13.280 --> 0:31:15.280
<v Speaker 1>crime at this moment. And I just wanted to zoom

0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:17.720
<v Speaker 1>out a little because your brain is so interesting to

0:31:17.800 --> 0:31:21.240
<v Speaker 1>me and I know that you don't just do true crime,

0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:25.400
<v Speaker 1>but we're just so curious about your interest in filmmaking

0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:28.280
<v Speaker 1>and how you got started and if this was something

0:31:28.280 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 1>you always wanted to do. Interesting. First of all, thank

0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:36.880
<v Speaker 1>you for all those compliments. Much appreciated kind of you.

0:31:36.880 --> 0:31:38.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, I have to say a lot of people

0:31:38.400 --> 0:31:40.880
<v Speaker 1>were involved in getting Damian Echoes out of prison. I mean,

0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.360
<v Speaker 1>the films were definitely a catalyst, but there was a

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:46.280
<v Speaker 1>lot of a lot of great minds at work to

0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:51.160
<v Speaker 1>make that happen. Um. You know, it's interesting. I came

0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:54.800
<v Speaker 1>to filmmaking very late. I was always uh, you know,

0:31:54.840 --> 0:31:58.680
<v Speaker 1>in college. Honestly, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um.

0:31:58.720 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 1>I was a language made or and I was particularly

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 1>became through my studies, not because of any home connection.

0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 1>I became fluent in German and I was as a

0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:11.719
<v Speaker 1>and I mean the reason I became fluent with German

0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:14.880
<v Speaker 1>is I was obsessed with the Holocaust, you know. But

0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 1>we were not Jewish at home. We had no Jewish

0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:20.080
<v Speaker 1>traditions at home. Really, I mean we were Jewish, but

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:24.520
<v Speaker 1>not observant. I was, you know, I'm a fifth generation German,

0:32:25.880 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 1>but no German was spoken at home. Um, you know,

0:32:29.240 --> 0:32:31.840
<v Speaker 1>like my great great great grandfather came over from Germany

0:32:31.880 --> 0:32:35.040
<v Speaker 1>long before the Holocaust. But I was exposed in my

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 1>teens to the Holocaust liberation footage of the camps, and

0:32:39.720 --> 0:32:43.320
<v Speaker 1>it's just it's just, you know, it's just it spoke

0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:46.920
<v Speaker 1>to me deeply, and it caused me to want to

0:32:47.000 --> 0:32:49.480
<v Speaker 1>learn German in high school because I wanted to have

0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.640
<v Speaker 1>a more deeper understanding of that kind of horror and

0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:55.560
<v Speaker 1>have something like that could happen And was there something

0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:59.640
<v Speaker 1>particularly wrong with Germans versus is there a larger way

0:32:59.720 --> 0:33:02.920
<v Speaker 1>to look at this, which so by the time I

0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:06.360
<v Speaker 1>got to college, I ended up majoring in languages and

0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:12.280
<v Speaker 1>German was my main language that I spoke fluently. Again,

0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 1>out of studies, no one spoke German at home, and

0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:18.160
<v Speaker 1>so I kind of stumbled my way into a job

0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:22.000
<v Speaker 1>at Ogilvie and Mayther, which is a big New York

0:33:22.040 --> 0:33:25.360
<v Speaker 1>ad agency or international ad agency that had an office

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:28.320
<v Speaker 1>in Frankfort and needed a young American guy who or

0:33:28.400 --> 0:33:33.360
<v Speaker 1>gal but it was me spoke multiple languages. So I

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:36.680
<v Speaker 1>found myself I kind of you know, bluffed my way

0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:41.000
<v Speaker 1>into a job as a junior producer in Frankfurt, Germany

0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:43.760
<v Speaker 1>in the mid eighties, and the first time I was

0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:48.400
<v Speaker 1>ever on a TV set or film set was was

0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:52.880
<v Speaker 1>a Nest Cafe commercial being shot in Germany. Uh. And

0:33:52.920 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 1>that's when, you know, just being around production, that's when

0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:57.160
<v Speaker 1>the light bulb went off, Oh, I think I want

0:33:57.160 --> 0:33:59.520
<v Speaker 1>to get into this film thing, not this language thing.

0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:01.640
<v Speaker 1>My only all in college was to figure out how

0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 1>to go to Europe and be paid to speak languages

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, and it resulted in this job with Ogilvie.

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 1>And then around the same time, Jim Jarmusch is Stranger

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Than Paradise was. I saw it in a cinema in

0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:17.239
<v Speaker 1>Germany and as I was thinking about, oh, I want

0:34:17.280 --> 0:34:22.960
<v Speaker 1>to be a filmmaker, um, and that it's just all

0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:25.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of congealed. And then I was sent back to

0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:31.600
<v Speaker 1>New York figuring back with Ogilvie, working on advertisements on

0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:34.600
<v Speaker 1>American on the American Express account, and I was thinking,

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:35.920
<v Speaker 1>how do I get how do I get out of

0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:38.759
<v Speaker 1>advertising and into film? You know, this is a really

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:45.719
<v Speaker 1>long answer, you know, but that's the origin story. Um.

0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:50.560
<v Speaker 1>And so uh, the irony of becoming a noted documentarian is,

0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, I come back to New York. I'm I'm

0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:57.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm a junior producer producer, this time working on American

0:34:57.120 --> 0:35:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Express campaign. And for this part cular campaign, the agency

0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.279
<v Speaker 1>and the client decided they wanted like a more real

0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:08.319
<v Speaker 1>people documentary style commercial and unscripted commercial, which was new

0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 1>at the time. Now it's very commonplace, and so the

0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, we had the idea to hire the Mazel Brothers,

0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:18.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, seminal documentarians to shoot this real people American

0:35:18.800 --> 0:35:21.680
<v Speaker 1>Express commercial and I kind of hit it off with

0:35:21.760 --> 0:35:24.880
<v Speaker 1>David Mazel's who was the brother who died short a

0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:28.520
<v Speaker 1>few years later. But they were looking to be called

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:32.879
<v Speaker 1>more to do commercials because you know, documentaries and those

0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 1>and those those days weren't very profitable, and so doing

0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:40.080
<v Speaker 1>more commercials to supplement their income was an idea that

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 1>they were liked, and they thought somebody like me could

0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:46.280
<v Speaker 1>help them get more commercial So I joined the Mazel Brothers,

0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, the seminal documentarians, who did give me shelter

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:52.480
<v Speaker 1>and great garden salesman like classics of the genre. So

0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:55.160
<v Speaker 1>they hired me to be their executive producer of commercials,

0:35:55.160 --> 0:35:57.440
<v Speaker 1>which was really just a glorified sales job where I

0:35:57.440 --> 0:35:59.640
<v Speaker 1>would go to ad agencies and show them they're real

0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.680
<v Speaker 1>and say, hey, you do really do more real people commercials.

0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:07.439
<v Speaker 1>And that's where I got my documentary education, and then

0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:10.919
<v Speaker 1>you know, eventually I made it. I decided I wanted

0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:13.319
<v Speaker 1>to take my try my hand at a documentary. And

0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:17.160
<v Speaker 1>my actually, my first documentary was was very comedic Lea

0:36:17.160 --> 0:36:21.560
<v Speaker 1>and you would have enjoyed it. In particular called the

0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Outrageous Taxi Stories, and I interviewed cappies to fell the

0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:29.640
<v Speaker 1>most outrageous whatever happened to see that whatever happened in

0:36:29.680 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 1>their caves, and that got you know, some attention and

0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:35.319
<v Speaker 1>went to some film festivals, and then that's where I

0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:37.920
<v Speaker 1>met Bruce Snowsky, who was my filmmaking partner for many

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:40.640
<v Speaker 1>years because he was an editor at Nasals. And then

0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.840
<v Speaker 1>he and I were looking for a verite doc because

0:36:45.200 --> 0:36:50.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's there's a lot of exceptions to the rule.

0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:53.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, people like Barbara Copple and whatnot. But during

0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the eighties, you know, document you like pure cinema. Verite

0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:01.000
<v Speaker 1>documentaries as an art was kind of dying out, and

0:37:01.120 --> 0:37:04.480
<v Speaker 1>documentaries were very kind of no no offense. I love

0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Ken Burns, but documentaries were very kind of talking head

0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:10.880
<v Speaker 1>PBSC kind of things, and these these great adventures of

0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:13.440
<v Speaker 1>following a story as they're unfolding was kind of not

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.560
<v Speaker 1>that popular in the eighties, and so Bruce and I said,

0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:18.719
<v Speaker 1>let's find a story and do a classic, you know,

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.719
<v Speaker 1>verite film, and that's how Brothers Keeper was born. And

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.239
<v Speaker 1>then I was on my way. And you know, we

0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:28.480
<v Speaker 1>gambled everything a dozen credit cards, second mortgages on homes

0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:31.239
<v Speaker 1>and gambled literally everything to get Brothers Keeper in the

0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.640
<v Speaker 1>can and luckily it was invited to Sundance and we

0:37:33.640 --> 0:37:35.560
<v Speaker 1>want a prize, and then we had a career. But

0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:38.799
<v Speaker 1>the irony at that period where I was like, I

0:37:38.840 --> 0:37:41.120
<v Speaker 1>want to get into film. I don't want to work

0:37:41.160 --> 0:37:44.040
<v Speaker 1>in advertising. You know, if I if we had hired

0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:46.640
<v Speaker 1>Ridley Scott. It wasn't like I had a particular interest

0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:49.200
<v Speaker 1>in documentaries, but if we had hired Ridley Scott to

0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:52.600
<v Speaker 1>shoot the American Express commercial, and if I had happened

0:37:52.640 --> 0:37:55.280
<v Speaker 1>to have hit it off with Ridley Scott or whomever,

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 1>I could have easily have gone in that direction. So

0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:02.160
<v Speaker 1>there's there's a certain amount of you know, serendipity to

0:38:02.200 --> 0:38:05.719
<v Speaker 1>my career. But when I look back, now, you know,

0:38:05.800 --> 0:38:09.160
<v Speaker 1>everything happens for a reason. And I think that this genre,

0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.680
<v Speaker 1>this style of filmmaking. You know, I've done both, but

0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:15.480
<v Speaker 1>I'll never not be a documentarian because I just it's

0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:17.480
<v Speaker 1>I can say this now. I've been doing it long enough.

0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:21.439
<v Speaker 1>It's just been like this incredible adventure, you know, where

0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.080
<v Speaker 1>you get to drop into people's lives, whether it's a

0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:27.680
<v Speaker 1>week or a year or three years or whatever, and

0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 1>just you get to witness things you wouldn't normally ever experience.

0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:34.560
<v Speaker 1>And so I'm really glad it turned out this way.

0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:36.880
<v Speaker 1>But it's just kind of funny that was never the intention.

0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:39.360
<v Speaker 1>It's not like, you know, I was twelve and running

0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:41.720
<v Speaker 1>around with a Super eight camera and wanting to make films.

0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:44.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, do you have like a favorite story or

0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:49.000
<v Speaker 1>a case that you loved researching that you still can't

0:38:49.040 --> 0:38:51.760
<v Speaker 1>get out of your mind that you still want answers

0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:57.680
<v Speaker 1>on Um, that's a good question. I would answer it

0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.879
<v Speaker 1>differently because anytime I can promote this idea I want

0:39:01.920 --> 0:39:03.920
<v Speaker 1>to is you know, I did a show about a

0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:09.080
<v Speaker 1>guy named Richard Glossip who's in on Oklahoma's death row,

0:39:09.719 --> 0:39:12.440
<v Speaker 1>who is so innocent, And you know, I did a

0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:16.799
<v Speaker 1>multipart series called Killing Richard Glossip and this guy is

0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:20.680
<v Speaker 1>that you know, he's They literally sent him to the

0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:25.400
<v Speaker 1>death chamber three times, and they halted the execution, you know,

0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:29.920
<v Speaker 1>sometimes within minutes of the execution, once because uh, there

0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:34.840
<v Speaker 1>was a stay, once because they had twice actually because

0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.839
<v Speaker 1>they had the wrong chemicals. You know, they literally had

0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:39.960
<v Speaker 1>the portal in his arm and they were ready to press,

0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, kill uh, and they realized they had the

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:47.080
<v Speaker 1>wrong chemicals and they stopped the execution. And then because

0:39:47.080 --> 0:39:50.360
<v Speaker 1>of all that mishaps with Oklahoma executions, this and some

0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:53.520
<v Speaker 1>other incidents where they literally had the wrong ingredients, which

0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 1>in a horrifying you know, could you imagine being you know,

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:58.960
<v Speaker 1>on a gurney and rolled in to be killed and

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:03.600
<v Speaker 1>you know they stop it right, you know, like seconds before, Um,

0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.759
<v Speaker 1>what are the ingredients they have? I'm like, what are

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:10.680
<v Speaker 1>they putting? Like rosemary and time in there? Like what's happening? Well,

0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.000
<v Speaker 1>they use a cocktail of three chemicals. One of those

0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:17.120
<v Speaker 1>chemicals is supposed to be potassium chloride, but instead they

0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:23.360
<v Speaker 1>use potassium acetate and all the time that just creates

0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:28.000
<v Speaker 1>incredible pain and suffering in the person who is being executed.

0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Actually killed somebody before glossip with the wrong chemicals, and

0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 1>then they were about to do it again with clossip

0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:41.600
<v Speaker 1>when they suddenly stopped the execution. So not only is

0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:46.000
<v Speaker 1>this guy innocent, uh, you know, and if you looked

0:40:46.000 --> 0:40:50.160
<v Speaker 1>into the case details itself, which is so mind boggling

0:40:50.239 --> 0:40:53.759
<v Speaker 1>that this guy ever could have been put on death row. Uh,

0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.880
<v Speaker 1>he's been sent to the death chamber not once, but

0:40:57.000 --> 0:41:00.239
<v Speaker 1>three times. And the third time they almost to use

0:41:00.320 --> 0:41:07.080
<v Speaker 1>the wrong chemicals. I mean, so disturbing that that can

0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 1>even happen. I think the question is like, what's worse

0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:16.640
<v Speaker 1>than death? Yeah, I think worse than death is surviving

0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:24.319
<v Speaker 1>and knowing you're the worst human ever. In Oklahoma, in Oklahoma,

0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:27.200
<v Speaker 1>they have a procedure where you know, there's two levels

0:41:27.239 --> 0:41:30.279
<v Speaker 1>of death row. There's like the nicer part of death

0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.520
<v Speaker 1>row in quotation marks because it ain't nice UM where

0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 1>if you're if your execution is still far off, that's

0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.440
<v Speaker 1>your you're in general population. But thirty five days before

0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:44.800
<v Speaker 1>you're executed, they take you to a different level where

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:49.440
<v Speaker 1>and they progressively move you closer and closer to UM

0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:53.360
<v Speaker 1>to the actual execution chamber. Uh. And lights are on

0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:58.560
<v Speaker 1>seven your mattresses like half an inch thick on the floor,

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:01.400
<v Speaker 1>so basically want to wear you out so that you

0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 1>just accept death. So poor Richard Glossop um, you know,

0:42:05.560 --> 0:42:10.640
<v Speaker 1>went through this three times. And because of the mishap

0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:15.760
<v Speaker 1>with using wrong the wrong ingredients for the lethal injection,

0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:20.640
<v Speaker 1>Oklahoma for several years has had a moratorium on executions,

0:42:20.680 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 1>but now it's been reinstated. Executions are starting again in Oklahoma.

0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:28.960
<v Speaker 1>And this guy, Richard Glossop, is you know, high on

0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:31.880
<v Speaker 1>the list to be executed. So that story haunts me

0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:35.960
<v Speaker 1>because I feel like I've done everything i can, both

0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:39.160
<v Speaker 1>filmically and otherwise to help promote the case. And here's

0:42:39.160 --> 0:42:41.839
<v Speaker 1>a guy who's so clearly innocent that you know, has

0:42:41.880 --> 0:42:44.960
<v Speaker 1>a good chance of being executed, which happens way too

0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:47.480
<v Speaker 1>often in this country, which is why we shouldn't have

0:42:47.520 --> 0:42:50.759
<v Speaker 1>a death penalty. But that's probably a subject for another day.

0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:54.000
<v Speaker 1>I have to ask one more question. I'm obsessed. Why

0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:59.440
<v Speaker 1>are women obsessed with marrying serial killers? On Beth Roum.

0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Why you talking about me like that? Teddy? I mean,

0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 1>and Lea just trying to tow around it, like also

0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:09.480
<v Speaker 1>a co host on the podcast, but like I need

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:12.640
<v Speaker 1>to understand, Like when you talked about Ted Bundy or

0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:15.960
<v Speaker 1>any of like you see so many beautiful women they're

0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:19.680
<v Speaker 1>supporting these men who have the usually become pen pals

0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 1>with them, right, and then they why, I don't know,

0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:27.080
<v Speaker 1>people like to look danger in the eye. It's uh,

0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:29.759
<v Speaker 1>I don't have an answer for it. It is. It

0:43:29.880 --> 0:43:33.239
<v Speaker 1>is a bizarre, bizarre phenomenon. You know, there are you know,

0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:35.840
<v Speaker 1>you should distinguish those between women who believe in the

0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:38.879
<v Speaker 1>innocence of somebody who's on You know, do you think

0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:43.200
<v Speaker 1>people actually believe that Ted Bundy was innocent? No, I don't,

0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:48.720
<v Speaker 1>but I'm just you know, uh, but he was handsome,

0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:51.920
<v Speaker 1>according to Lea. Want to make sure people don't confuse

0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:55.200
<v Speaker 1>it with Damian Echols and his situation because Lori Davis

0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:58.759
<v Speaker 1>was an incredible person. When I said before that you know,

0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:01.160
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't just the Elms that got him out of prison.

0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.200
<v Speaker 1>It's somebody like Lorie, which is a fascinating story. I mean,

0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Paradise Lost was planning was having Paradise Lost in nineties

0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:15.160
<v Speaker 1>six premiered at Sundance. Uh so that yeah, so it

0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:19.239
<v Speaker 1>was right, and you know, people were just obsessed with

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:21.560
<v Speaker 1>that film. The Q and A s were like insane.

0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Everyone's stay, you know, you know, it's a film that

0:44:24.440 --> 0:44:27.279
<v Speaker 1>has people's attentions when literally everyone stays for the Q

0:44:27.400 --> 0:44:29.160
<v Speaker 1>and A. So it was that kind of a premiere

0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:32.279
<v Speaker 1>at Sundance, and then the second set of screenings was

0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:34.799
<v Speaker 1>there used to be a festival, maybe they still have it,

0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:37.280
<v Speaker 1>but I can't remember. But it's called New Directors, New Films,

0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:42.719
<v Speaker 1>which was a joint festival between Museum of Modern Art

0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:46.400
<v Speaker 1>and the Film Society of Lincoln Center jointly presented New Directors,

0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:48.720
<v Speaker 1>New Films, and so Paradise Lost had a big screening

0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:53.080
<v Speaker 1>at Alice tully hall Um four or maybe it was

0:44:53.400 --> 0:44:56.759
<v Speaker 1>a Museum of Modern Art. I forget, but uh, there

0:44:56.800 --> 0:44:59.600
<v Speaker 1>was a big screening and at the end of the screening,

0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:02.480
<v Speaker 1>everybody he stayed. It was a packed house. Everybody stayed.

0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:05.120
<v Speaker 1>People follow follow us out because they don't want the

0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:07.479
<v Speaker 1>Q and A to end. And there was one woman

0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.840
<v Speaker 1>who kept asking me questions and you know, literally following

0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:15.439
<v Speaker 1>me down to the you know, people are falling back,

0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:18.319
<v Speaker 1>drifting away, but this one woman continued walking with us,

0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:20.919
<v Speaker 1>and I did have to go. So I said, here's

0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:23.239
<v Speaker 1>my number, call me ill. I can tell you more,

0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:25.120
<v Speaker 1>but I have to go, and she followed up, she

0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:28.600
<v Speaker 1>called me. It turns out to be this woman Laurie Davis,

0:45:28.640 --> 0:45:33.200
<v Speaker 1>who literally, by watching the film just became so fixated

0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:36.400
<v Speaker 1>with the injustice that was being presented on the screen

0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:41.200
<v Speaker 1>that she started corresponding with Damien Um. They fell in love.

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.799
<v Speaker 1>She went down to visit him. They She then gave

0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:46.960
<v Speaker 1>up her life in New York, moved to Arkansas and

0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:50.440
<v Speaker 1>became his biggest advocate and eventually got him out of

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:53.680
<v Speaker 1>prison along with you know, obvious she was the most

0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:56.600
<v Speaker 1>she was, you know, a key person and getting him

0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.480
<v Speaker 1>out of prison. The films obviously helped because the film's

0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:03.480
<v Speaker 1>cattle eyes people like her Um and they're still together,

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:06.920
<v Speaker 1>married and out of prison. And you know, so I,

0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:09.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, I just wanted to make sure people weren't

0:46:09.600 --> 0:46:12.399
<v Speaker 1>The reason I was, you know, saying what I said

0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:14.600
<v Speaker 1>is I don't want her lumped into the people who

0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:17.160
<v Speaker 1>like fall in love with criminals. And you know, no,

0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:22.480
<v Speaker 1>I was mainly thinking, like Robert Durst, Ted Bundy, like, yeah,

0:46:22.680 --> 0:46:25.279
<v Speaker 1>that is inexplicable to me. You know, but you know,

0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:30.240
<v Speaker 1>how is it that people think that, you know, Biden

0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:35.560
<v Speaker 1>lost the election, so, you know, people a wacky things

0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:38.040
<v Speaker 1>in this world. You know. It's it's also weird that

0:46:38.080 --> 0:46:41.560
<v Speaker 1>people who don't commit the crimes, we'll say that they

0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:46.319
<v Speaker 1>are the murderer. Yeah, what is the logic behind that?

0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:48.520
<v Speaker 1>That also has never made sense to me. Is that

0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 1>wanting fame? Yeah, people want attention, you know, I mean

0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:54.840
<v Speaker 1>we Yeah, me too. I just post a bikini photo

0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:57.600
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram like normal people. Yeah me too. I know

0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:00.239
<v Speaker 1>I like it, But then you always deleted after because

0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:05.320
<v Speaker 1>something like that was because then the guy finally text

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.160
<v Speaker 1>me back, and I feel comfortable baking it down. But

0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:10.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's just a cry for help, Joe. I'm

0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:12.959
<v Speaker 1>sure this is the most scattered interview you've ever had.

0:47:13.000 --> 0:47:18.040
<v Speaker 1>We have a million questions for you, you know. I

0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.160
<v Speaker 1>also thought it was interesting not to go back to

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:23.440
<v Speaker 1>um the story in Oklahoma. But it's interesting that there

0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:28.799
<v Speaker 1>were so many errors with him on death row and

0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:31.239
<v Speaker 1>you're saying that he's innocent, and you also said that

0:47:31.840 --> 0:47:34.200
<v Speaker 1>there are no mistakes and everything happens for a reason.

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:37.560
<v Speaker 1>So it seems as if maybe it's like the universe

0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:40.160
<v Speaker 1>is conspiring to help this man get off death row.

0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:44.160
<v Speaker 1>Could be I mean, look, I don't think everything happens

0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:46.640
<v Speaker 1>for a reason. I think in the arc of one's career,

0:47:47.000 --> 0:47:49.320
<v Speaker 1>or you know, how you choose to look at things,

0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:52.120
<v Speaker 1>you know, looking back now, I think things in my

0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:54.440
<v Speaker 1>life happened for a reason, and I'm happy the way

0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:57.120
<v Speaker 1>they But certainly there's a ton of injustice out there

0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:59.960
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't happen for well, it does happen for a reason,

0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:05.839
<v Speaker 1>you know, misguided policies, corrupt politicians, you know. Um, but

0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Richard Glass of situation is quite dire. So I, you know,

0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:13.799
<v Speaker 1>anyone who cares about justice should look into that, look

0:48:13.840 --> 0:48:17.040
<v Speaker 1>in at that. Have you been following the Galane Maxwell

0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:22.080
<v Speaker 1>case at all? I have, you know, uh, since you know,

0:48:22.120 --> 0:48:26.080
<v Speaker 1>we made a show about Jeffrey Epstein for Netflix called

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Filthy rich Oh you did that show too. It was

0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:32.560
<v Speaker 1>an executive producer and I wasn't the director all of that.

0:48:34.960 --> 0:48:42.399
<v Speaker 1>He did only best friends. Yeah, question, but I felt

0:48:42.440 --> 0:48:45.239
<v Speaker 1>like it was a fine question. Joe, Joe felt fine

0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:52.440
<v Speaker 1>about it. Dmitri's jealous, that's all that's happening. So, in

0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:54.360
<v Speaker 1>your opinion, do you think there's going to be a

0:48:54.360 --> 0:49:00.839
<v Speaker 1>mistrial with glene Um. It's certainly troubling, but I think

0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:03.480
<v Speaker 1>they're just putting everything on the record for an appeal.

0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:07.040
<v Speaker 1>I think it would be highly unusual for there to

0:49:07.040 --> 0:49:09.680
<v Speaker 1>be a mistrial. I think it's in the realm of possibility,

0:49:09.719 --> 0:49:11.919
<v Speaker 1>but I think it's low. I think they're just kind

0:49:11.960 --> 0:49:17.120
<v Speaker 1>of you know, they need to do this and posture

0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.600
<v Speaker 1>for an appeal. Um. Do I think it's potentially reversible

0:49:21.680 --> 0:49:24.640
<v Speaker 1>on appeal. I think that's the bigger fear. I don't think.

0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:27.600
<v Speaker 1>I think the chance of a mistrial is low, but

0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:31.120
<v Speaker 1>I think the chance of reversal on appeal because of

0:49:31.160 --> 0:49:33.920
<v Speaker 1>this and how it unfolded, I think there is a

0:49:34.040 --> 0:49:36.439
<v Speaker 1>there is a decent chance of that. Have you ever

0:49:36.480 --> 0:49:41.200
<v Speaker 1>met her? I have not. Do you think she um

0:49:41.440 --> 0:49:48.719
<v Speaker 1>cooperates and releases some names at some point? Um? Hard

0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:53.120
<v Speaker 1>to say, you know, hard to say. I think if

0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:56.319
<v Speaker 1>I think if that were you know, I think if

0:49:56.360 --> 0:49:59.880
<v Speaker 1>she was inclined to do that, um, it would have

0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:02.600
<v Speaker 1>happened already. Yeah. I don't think she's going to either.

0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:05.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't think so either. I think she wants to survive.

0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:09.879
<v Speaker 1>So we'll see. You know, Joe, I know we don't

0:50:09.880 --> 0:50:11.680
<v Speaker 1>have that much more time with you, So let's bring

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:15.880
<v Speaker 1>it back to crime scene, which I'm still blown away

0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:19.520
<v Speaker 1>by Richard Cottingham talking about the fact that he had

0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:24.560
<v Speaker 1>over eighty perfect murders. He could be exaggerating by the way.

0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:29.680
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he definitely had more than he's been charged with,

0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:33.440
<v Speaker 1>and there is an ongoing task force, UM that is

0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:39.279
<v Speaker 1>seeking to identify more victims. Um. You know, could be

0:50:39.320 --> 0:50:42.319
<v Speaker 1>an exaggeration, you know, but it certainly is enough that

0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:45.319
<v Speaker 1>it should be deeply disturbing that he was allowed to

0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:49.120
<v Speaker 1>kill with impunity for so many years. Do you think

0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.080
<v Speaker 1>that there's a part of him that wanted to get caught?

0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:57.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, that is a good question, and with some yes,

0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:02.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, Dahmer's activities escalate it and escalated, and uh,

0:51:02.640 --> 0:51:06.680
<v Speaker 1>he became sloppier and sloppier, and many experts believe that,

0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:08.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was a cry for help. But cutting

0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:12.360
<v Speaker 1>him was so cold and calculating and had such a

0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:15.800
<v Speaker 1>double life that I actually don't think he wanted to

0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:20.440
<v Speaker 1>get caught. I mean, that's just pure speculation. But um,

0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:25.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't think so, but often they do. I Mean,

0:51:25.040 --> 0:51:28.560
<v Speaker 1>it's so wild, just just him walking around Times Square

0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:32.239
<v Speaker 1>with women's severed heads and hands and bags, saying that

0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:34.160
<v Speaker 1>he's going to go grab a bite, and the cops

0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:39.239
<v Speaker 1>never stopping him. I mean, the amount, but I can't

0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:42.919
<v Speaker 1>even fathom what type of person you have to be

0:51:44.800 --> 0:51:47.719
<v Speaker 1>do anything close to that. I mean, it's boggling my

0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:50.799
<v Speaker 1>mind just thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, and that bad thing.

0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:53.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, I debated putting it in the show because

0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:56.040
<v Speaker 1>it's so gruesome, but you know, to me, it's it

0:51:56.160 --> 0:52:00.480
<v Speaker 1>was a symbol for the disregard and you know how

0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:03.760
<v Speaker 1>easily he could have been caught. And also the era,

0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:07.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, police departments didn't communicate with each other. Forensic

0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:12.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, pathology and evidence was not what it is today.

0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:17.160
<v Speaker 1>DNA technology didn't exist. Um, and here you have serial

0:52:17.239 --> 0:52:20.120
<v Speaker 1>killings right across the river in New Jersey and serial

0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:23.000
<v Speaker 1>killings in New York, and nobody's connecting the dots. And

0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:25.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a very different era. It's why that

0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:29.440
<v Speaker 1>particular period, you know, was so you know, we we

0:52:29.560 --> 0:52:33.000
<v Speaker 1>perversely call it the Golden Age of serial killers because

0:52:33.120 --> 0:52:37.360
<v Speaker 1>from like nineteen sixty nine with Charles Manson too, you

0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:42.600
<v Speaker 1>know Dahmer who was convicted in the nineties, you know,

0:52:42.719 --> 0:52:46.240
<v Speaker 1>there was you know that there was just a significant

0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:50.839
<v Speaker 1>number of killers who just weren't caught and or took

0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:54.680
<v Speaker 1>took too long a time to be caught. Um. And

0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:57.200
<v Speaker 1>in this particular case, there was such indifference by the

0:52:57.200 --> 0:52:59.960
<v Speaker 1>police that you know, like you know, it's time square

0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.920
<v Speaker 1>or like whatever, you know, which I just find so troubling.

0:53:03.600 --> 0:53:05.600
<v Speaker 1>And I know we're out of time, but I have

0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:10.200
<v Speaker 1>one last question. Have you ever come across a killer

0:53:10.320 --> 0:53:18.960
<v Speaker 1>or a serial killer who didn't have a troubling childhood? Um? Well, interestingly,

0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Cottingham claims that his childhood was normal, you know, and

0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:29.680
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't seem to have that much of a troubling childhood,

0:53:31.040 --> 0:53:34.160
<v Speaker 1>which is interesting, which is why I think he You know,

0:53:34.400 --> 0:53:36.680
<v Speaker 1>there are a lot of reasons why he is uniquely

0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:42.440
<v Speaker 1>disturbing to me. But generally speaking, Um, you know, Sam

0:53:42.520 --> 0:53:50.960
<v Speaker 1>little was his mother tried to abort him, right, I

0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:53.560
<v Speaker 1>mean literally same you know, get a grip, dude. You

0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:57.319
<v Speaker 1>know his father was, I tried to put crews in

0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:00.759
<v Speaker 1>the trunk. I don't think he heard that part of

0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:07.440
<v Speaker 1>the story context. No, I mean, dam Dahmer's childhood was

0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:10.120
<v Speaker 1>actually pretty good, except his parents fought a lot. But

0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:12.880
<v Speaker 1>my parents fought a lot too, So, um, he wasn't

0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:17.000
<v Speaker 1>really abused. And you know, Bundy claims that he had

0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:21.480
<v Speaker 1>the perfect childhood, but you know, people have said otherwise.

0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:25.080
<v Speaker 1>But Robert durs had a really disturbing childhood. So you

0:54:25.120 --> 0:54:28.839
<v Speaker 1>don't think it's like a nature versus nurture. It's it's

0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:32.839
<v Speaker 1>just you. You are you aren't I think? So. Look,

0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:35.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean honestly, I had a rough childhood, you know,

0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:38.120
<v Speaker 1>not to get too deep into it, especially since it's

0:54:38.160 --> 0:54:42.120
<v Speaker 1>the last question. Well I have one more after this,

0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:45.360
<v Speaker 1>so go, so go for it. I mean, honestly, I

0:54:45.400 --> 0:54:49.319
<v Speaker 1>had a tough childhood, you know. And oh my five

0:54:49.360 --> 0:54:54.359
<v Speaker 1>thirty lights pop. Your hair looks magnificent. It's glowing now

0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:59.600
<v Speaker 1>on the time. I'm sorry, But look, I had a

0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:03.120
<v Speaker 1>tough childhood. And you know I've I've looked into the

0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:06.600
<v Speaker 1>dark side filmically to exercise my demons, you know. So

0:55:07.320 --> 0:55:10.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't you know, I don't think. I think you

0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:14.040
<v Speaker 1>are born that way, you know, and and certain you

0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:19.120
<v Speaker 1>know environmental issues can trigger it. But look, I think

0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:24.920
<v Speaker 1>bad parenting was has all sorts of horrible consequences. You know.

0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:28.680
<v Speaker 1>Not you know, not everyone becomes a serial killer, but

0:55:28.760 --> 0:55:33.880
<v Speaker 1>bad parenting has horrible, horrible consequences for people. Um, but

0:55:34.239 --> 0:55:35.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't think, I mean, I agree with that. I

0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:40.239
<v Speaker 1>turned into a comedian. That's one of the worst things

0:55:40.239 --> 0:55:44.960
<v Speaker 1>a parent can do to a kid, you know. Um,

0:55:45.000 --> 0:55:50.040
<v Speaker 1>but I lost my train of thought because and this

0:55:50.080 --> 0:55:53.560
<v Speaker 1>is and this is exactly bad parents that you know,

0:55:53.640 --> 0:55:56.240
<v Speaker 1>bad parenting does result in a lot of bad things,

0:55:56.600 --> 0:55:59.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, um that we spend our lives working our

0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:02.680
<v Speaker 1>way through. But I don't think bad parenting produces a

0:56:02.719 --> 0:56:05.480
<v Speaker 1>serial killer. I think that is just you know, whether

0:56:06.280 --> 0:56:11.600
<v Speaker 1>that is just some deeply inexplicable dark side of the

0:56:11.640 --> 0:56:14.839
<v Speaker 1>human condition that I don't think you can blame on

0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:19.080
<v Speaker 1>bad parenting skills. You know, I would think bad parenting

0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:23.480
<v Speaker 1>can can result to disregard for other people's feelings or consequence.

0:56:23.600 --> 0:56:25.839
<v Speaker 1>But I think that's I agree, there's a whole other

0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:28.879
<v Speaker 1>leap to do something like that, and I think there's

0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:30.960
<v Speaker 1>got to be more to it than just and the

0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:35.200
<v Speaker 1>and it's you know, there's different reasons, you know, dahm Er,

0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:42.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, he sought companionship, like he just wanted to

0:56:42.160 --> 0:56:44.600
<v Speaker 1>lay with people and have them not leave him. And

0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:47.960
<v Speaker 1>that was his psychological profile for why he did what

0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:51.040
<v Speaker 1>he did, like he you know, he you know, obviously

0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:53.160
<v Speaker 1>what he did was brutal, and I'm not defending it

0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:55.960
<v Speaker 1>in any way, but you know, of all the serial killers,

0:56:56.040 --> 0:57:00.279
<v Speaker 1>you know he had, you know, these reasons that were

0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:03.360
<v Speaker 1>born out of just a deep loneliness, whereas somebody like

0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:11.360
<v Speaker 1>Richard Cottingham, you know, was wanted to enjoyed giving pain

0:57:11.400 --> 0:57:14.880
<v Speaker 1>to people. You know, Dahmer would slip his victims sleeping

0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:19.960
<v Speaker 1>pill um and wait till they were totally asleep and

0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:23.600
<v Speaker 1>unconscious before he you know, killed them and did terrible

0:57:23.640 --> 0:57:27.920
<v Speaker 1>things to them. Again, there's no justification for any of

0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:31.600
<v Speaker 1>this behavior. But different, different serial killers have different motivations.

0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:37.440
<v Speaker 1>And Cottingham just enjoyed the pure torture and control of women, um,

0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:40.120
<v Speaker 1>as did Bundy, you know. So different serial killers have

0:57:40.160 --> 0:57:42.040
<v Speaker 1>different reasons for why they do what they do. So

0:57:42.080 --> 0:57:45.080
<v Speaker 1>it's hard, it's hard to generalize, you know, cutting him

0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:49.240
<v Speaker 1>gave women sedatives to right, he did, yes, But but

0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:54.320
<v Speaker 1>when they awakened, they participated it in the torture. Right.

0:57:55.320 --> 0:57:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh god, Well, anyone who hasn't seen it yet, we

0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:02.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't give away all the details. Trust me, you need

0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:05.640
<v Speaker 1>to go watch it. It is binge worthy. It will

0:58:05.680 --> 0:58:07.480
<v Speaker 1>happen whether you want to or not. You won't be

0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:10.640
<v Speaker 1>able to stop yourself. That's what happened to me. Thank you, Joe,

0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:15.320
<v Speaker 1>And just another night glued to my television. My husband

0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:19.640
<v Speaker 1>gets home from work and I'm like, he's like, you

0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:23.720
<v Speaker 1>have problems. I'm like, it's work, honey, it's work. It's

0:58:23.440 --> 0:58:26.440
<v Speaker 1>a good thing. It's only three episodes. It's easy to finish.

0:58:26.680 --> 0:58:29.280
<v Speaker 1>I was upset, honestly, I was like, what do you

0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:32.080
<v Speaker 1>mean it's over? But also before we let you go,

0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 1>I've got to just quick quick questions. One is, what

0:58:36.280 --> 0:58:39.240
<v Speaker 1>do you really think happened at the Cecil Hotel to

0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Elisa Lamb? And why is it that she got lost

0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:44.000
<v Speaker 1>in the elevator game? I can get out with you,

0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:48.320
<v Speaker 1>We'll never get down with Elsa Lamb. I think it was,

0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:55.040
<v Speaker 1>as the show strongly suggests, it was a sad, tragic accident.

0:58:56.520 --> 0:59:00.480
<v Speaker 1>I know that's I know that's unsatisfying, but that's not

0:59:00.560 --> 0:59:03.880
<v Speaker 1>as fun Joe. Okay, but so so mine was like,

0:59:03.920 --> 0:59:05.840
<v Speaker 1>so I'm gonna ask something else that I can get right,

0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:09.000
<v Speaker 1>just to get the answer. I know. Okay, So, Joe,

0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:11.480
<v Speaker 1>before we wrap up with you for today, you know,

0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:14.560
<v Speaker 1>we've been so honored to have such a genius mind

0:59:15.360 --> 0:59:19.720
<v Speaker 1>discuss true crime with us and many other aspects of life.

0:59:19.840 --> 0:59:22.640
<v Speaker 1>And I'm personally very happy that you came on today.

0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:25.800
<v Speaker 1>I've been looking forward to this for a while. I'm

0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:27.920
<v Speaker 1>so glad you're here. I just wanted to see if

0:59:28.000 --> 0:59:30.840
<v Speaker 1>you had any final thoughts or anything that you wanted

0:59:30.840 --> 0:59:34.400
<v Speaker 1>to let people know. UM, any project that you have

0:59:34.560 --> 0:59:37.640
<v Speaker 1>coming out, that you're excited about, anything that's next for

0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:40.080
<v Speaker 1>you on the horizon, just anything at all. I would

0:59:40.120 --> 0:59:43.280
<v Speaker 1>love for you to give us your final thoughts. Well,

0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:45.520
<v Speaker 1>first of all, it's been quite a thrill to be

0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:47.680
<v Speaker 1>on the show. We've known each other for a long time,

0:59:47.720 --> 0:59:51.680
<v Speaker 1>so it's really I'm really glad to do this. UM.

0:59:52.080 --> 0:59:54.160
<v Speaker 1>I think you guys asked great questions, so I think

0:59:54.240 --> 0:59:56.360
<v Speaker 1>I kind of said everything there is to say about

0:59:56.840 --> 1:00:05.080
<v Speaker 1>about the Cecil Hotel and no, and you know, I

1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:07.720
<v Speaker 1>generally don't talk about stuff that's coming up, in part

1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.560
<v Speaker 1>because the networks say you can't talk about it until.

1:00:10.720 --> 1:00:13.640
<v Speaker 1>But luckily the thing I'm about to start has already

1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:16.680
<v Speaker 1>been announced, which is unusual that we've announced it. But

1:00:16.720 --> 1:00:21.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm doing the definitive Bernie made Off story. We gotta

1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:26.080
<v Speaker 1>have you back on the podcasting a four parties know,

1:00:27.000 --> 1:00:30.840
<v Speaker 1>did you know anything? You'll have to wait and say now, Joe,

1:00:31.640 --> 1:00:35.320
<v Speaker 1>we need info when you come back to talk about that.

1:00:35.360 --> 1:00:39.440
<v Speaker 1>We promised no Cecil hotel. We're We're in a cool

1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:43.120
<v Speaker 1>way and I'm very excited about it. So that's I'm

1:00:43.160 --> 1:00:45.880
<v Speaker 1>actually in prep now. When we start shooting in a

1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:49.240
<v Speaker 1>couple of weeks. You need an insider info. I know nothing,

1:00:49.280 --> 1:00:51.560
<v Speaker 1>but I'll pretend. I mean, we need a group text show.

1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:54.840
<v Speaker 1>We need a group text And is there anything that, um,

1:00:54.920 --> 1:00:57.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, any other projects maybe that are not documentaries

1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:00.160
<v Speaker 1>or anything else that you wanted to speak on. I

1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:03.400
<v Speaker 1>have a couple of scripted things, you know. I enjoy

1:01:03.520 --> 1:01:06.840
<v Speaker 1>finally being at a place where, you know, I can

1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.880
<v Speaker 1>move between both worlds and occasionally do a scripted project

1:01:11.160 --> 1:01:14.240
<v Speaker 1>in between the documentaries. Although the documentary stuff is you know,

1:01:14.400 --> 1:01:18.280
<v Speaker 1>is where my heart is and you know you know so.

1:01:18.720 --> 1:01:20.760
<v Speaker 1>But I got a scripted thing coming down the bike,

1:01:20.880 --> 1:01:24.040
<v Speaker 1>but I can't say what. Everything's coming in Hot for Joe,

1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, oh super hot. I mean, Joe, you're super multitalented.

1:01:27.680 --> 1:01:31.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm excited to watch and support anything you create with

1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:35.320
<v Speaker 1>that brain of yours and Dmitri Teddy, any final thoughts

1:01:35.320 --> 1:01:37.960
<v Speaker 1>for Joe. No, we're just so grateful that you're here.

1:01:38.080 --> 1:01:41.880
<v Speaker 1>You showed up for us and gave us all the juice,

1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:46.240
<v Speaker 1>and now I'm going to really wait with like, I

1:01:46.280 --> 1:01:48.480
<v Speaker 1>need to know everything about Bernie made off, no idea.

1:01:48.720 --> 1:01:53.240
<v Speaker 1>You have got lots of new info that hasn't been

1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:56.720
<v Speaker 1>shared before, so it's going to be a good one.

1:01:55.800 --> 1:01:59.600
<v Speaker 1>And no and no serial killers. You know, I need

1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:02.440
<v Speaker 1>a little right from the serial killer thing. Money scandal

1:02:02.840 --> 1:02:07.920
<v Speaker 1>is just as good to me as killing so hot. Also,

1:02:07.920 --> 1:02:10.920
<v Speaker 1>do I have a problem, like why am I obsessed

1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:17.000
<v Speaker 1>with killers and money scandal? What does that mean about?

1:02:14.440 --> 1:02:18.720
<v Speaker 1>Don't I don't know if you noticed, but true crime

1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:21.080
<v Speaker 1>seems to be very popular these days. Why do you guys?

1:02:21.120 --> 1:02:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Through crime is so popular because it's an escape from

1:02:23.760 --> 1:02:26.160
<v Speaker 1>my own life and I've been doing that. I've been

1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:28.120
<v Speaker 1>doing the same thing for thirty years, and now all

1:02:28.160 --> 1:02:30.520
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, it's like, you know, very popular. So

1:02:30.600 --> 1:02:33.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm just curious. And documentaries have never been more popular.

1:02:33.560 --> 1:02:37.080
<v Speaker 1>Look when I started in this business, you know, when

1:02:37.080 --> 1:02:40.360
<v Speaker 1>we shot Brothers Keeper in nineteen nineties, when we first

1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:43.480
<v Speaker 1>started shooting it, Uh god, I was like twenty seven

1:02:43.520 --> 1:02:47.720
<v Speaker 1>years old. I can't believe it. Um something like that.

1:02:48.040 --> 1:02:51.400
<v Speaker 1>But if you didn't sell your documentary to PBS or HBO,

1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:53.800
<v Speaker 1>you weren't making a documentary. There was no such thing

1:02:53.840 --> 1:02:57.520
<v Speaker 1>as doc series. Uh, you know, we ended up self

1:02:57.560 --> 1:02:59.960
<v Speaker 1>just even though it went to Sundance and won a prize,

1:03:00.000 --> 1:03:03.000
<v Speaker 1>as nobody wanted to distribute Brothers Keeper, so we ended

1:03:03.080 --> 1:03:05.800
<v Speaker 1>up doing it ourselves, Like we had a handful of

1:03:07.080 --> 1:03:10.760
<v Speaker 1>millimeter released prints and went from theater to theater, you know,

1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:15.000
<v Speaker 1>doing it ourselves. And you know, if four hundred people

1:03:15.000 --> 1:03:17.560
<v Speaker 1>saw our movie on a weekend, Bruce Snovsky and I

1:03:17.560 --> 1:03:19.560
<v Speaker 1>would high five each other, like, oh my god, we

1:03:19.680 --> 1:03:21.880
<v Speaker 1>died and went to heaven. Four hundred people saw a movie,

1:03:21.880 --> 1:03:25.720
<v Speaker 1>and today something pops on Netflix and you know, twenty

1:03:25.720 --> 1:03:28.080
<v Speaker 1>million people see it in the first couple of weeks.

1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:30.240
<v Speaker 1>It's like insane. Well, I know, I know we have

1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:32.400
<v Speaker 1>to go, but what project are you most proud of?

1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:36.280
<v Speaker 1>I would have to say, Well, I guess I have

1:03:36.360 --> 1:03:39.920
<v Speaker 1>to say Paradise Lost. I mean, all documentarians dream of

1:03:40.000 --> 1:03:44.080
<v Speaker 1>having some kind of impact on their subjects, um to

1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:48.000
<v Speaker 1>tangibly actually have participated in helping to get somebody out

1:03:48.000 --> 1:03:50.360
<v Speaker 1>of prison, three people out of prison, one on death row.

1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:53.360
<v Speaker 1>You know, that's that doesn't happen very often. So I

1:03:53.400 --> 1:03:55.760
<v Speaker 1>feel great about that. And we were. You know, all

1:03:55.760 --> 1:03:58.000
<v Speaker 1>the when we went down to make Paradise Lost, we

1:03:58.000 --> 1:04:00.280
<v Speaker 1>thought we were making a you know, a kid's killing

1:04:00.360 --> 1:04:02.840
<v Speaker 1>kids film. That's what HBO assigned us to do. All

1:04:02.880 --> 1:04:06.400
<v Speaker 1>the press was these guys are are killers, and so

1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:10.439
<v Speaker 1>we went down expecting to be making a kid's killing

1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:12.800
<v Speaker 1>kids film, and all the press, all the local press

1:04:12.840 --> 1:04:15.280
<v Speaker 1>down there. It's a very different world, no internet whatever.

1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:19.680
<v Speaker 1>So local press actually was very important, you know, in

1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:23.680
<v Speaker 1>a market, to influence people's opinion. And the local press

1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:26.520
<v Speaker 1>was utterly convinced of their guilt and helped feed and

1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:31.240
<v Speaker 1>pollute the jurors, the jurors with that false narrative. And

1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:33.640
<v Speaker 1>we were the only ones who said, hey, something's not

1:04:33.720 --> 1:04:35.360
<v Speaker 1>right here, you know. So I think I'm proud that

1:04:35.400 --> 1:04:38.760
<v Speaker 1>we had we didn't. You know. I remember calling up HBO,

1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:42.960
<v Speaker 1>the executive sheil and Evans, who assigned the film to us, UM,

1:04:43.120 --> 1:04:44.840
<v Speaker 1>because she just sent an art of Ay, these two

1:04:45.080 --> 1:04:48.760
<v Speaker 1>kids had just been arrested for these devil worshiping murders.

1:04:48.760 --> 1:04:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Go look, go look into it. And so, you know,

1:04:51.080 --> 1:04:54.360
<v Speaker 1>we had no reason to not think they were not guilty.

1:04:54.640 --> 1:04:59.320
<v Speaker 1>There's no reason to think they weren't guilty. Um and

1:04:59.600 --> 1:05:03.720
<v Speaker 1>about too, probably about two or three months into it,

1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:08.080
<v Speaker 1>you know. I actually I was interviewing Jason Baldwin, one

1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:10.120
<v Speaker 1>of the West Memphish three, and I was looking at

1:05:10.120 --> 1:05:13.440
<v Speaker 1>his tiny little wrists during the interview, and he was

1:05:13.520 --> 1:05:17.400
<v Speaker 1>declaring his innocence, and I was thinking about how small

1:05:17.440 --> 1:05:19.600
<v Speaker 1>his risks are and trying to imagine him holding a

1:05:19.640 --> 1:05:22.440
<v Speaker 1>ten inch errated hunting knife, which is what the prosecution

1:05:22.520 --> 1:05:25.720
<v Speaker 1>was alleging, and that he had castrated this eight year

1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:28.400
<v Speaker 1>old boy and done all these terrible knife wounds. And

1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:32.040
<v Speaker 1>I just had this epiphany that something's not right here.

1:05:32.040 --> 1:05:35.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't think this guy is guilty. And I remember

1:05:35.560 --> 1:05:39.840
<v Speaker 1>calling up the executive at HBO, Sheil and Evans, who

1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:43.400
<v Speaker 1>is well known in our business, half expecting her to

1:05:43.440 --> 1:05:46.960
<v Speaker 1>tell us to come home, because I was telling her, no,

1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:49.240
<v Speaker 1>this is not a kid's killing kids film. I think

1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:52.560
<v Speaker 1>they got the wrong people. And this is six months

1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:55.600
<v Speaker 1>before the trial. Um, and I you know, I half

1:05:55.600 --> 1:05:58.720
<v Speaker 1>expected her to cancel the film, you know, and she said, no, no,

1:05:58.880 --> 1:06:00.840
<v Speaker 1>stick with it. Then that sound is more interesting. So

1:06:00.880 --> 1:06:03.360
<v Speaker 1>I guess I'm proud of that film. To answer your question,

1:06:03.400 --> 1:06:06.960
<v Speaker 1>because with all the media hype and our mission to

1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:11.080
<v Speaker 1>tell that same story. We have some clarity and realize

1:06:11.160 --> 1:06:15.160
<v Speaker 1>these guys, you know, before the trial, uh, we thought

1:06:15.160 --> 1:06:20.840
<v Speaker 1>these guys were probably innocent. Yeah, So you're the coolest.

1:06:21.040 --> 1:06:24.720
<v Speaker 1>I thank you so much. Yeah. And and right before

1:06:24.760 --> 1:06:28.240
<v Speaker 1>you came on, I gave your CVS received long list

1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:31.440
<v Speaker 1>of credits to everyone. So do your homework. People, go

1:06:31.480 --> 1:06:35.480
<v Speaker 1>on IMDb hunt down Joe. Watch all of his films.

1:06:36.040 --> 1:06:42.320
<v Speaker 1>They're so impactful and special and important. And if you

1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:45.920
<v Speaker 1>haven't already been watched Crime Scene, the Times Square Killer,

1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:49.360
<v Speaker 1>it's on Netflix right now. It's trending. We all already

1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:52.080
<v Speaker 1>watched it, we all already loved it, and you heard

1:06:52.160 --> 1:06:54.120
<v Speaker 1>us talk a little bit about it today, but you

1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:56.080
<v Speaker 1>should watch it to get into the nitty gritty and

1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:59.440
<v Speaker 1>find out all the details on the case. Joe, it

1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:03.600
<v Speaker 1>has been an honor, a pleasure of delight. Thank you

1:07:03.640 --> 1:07:06.000
<v Speaker 1>so much for coming on to Real Time Crime today

1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:08.320
<v Speaker 1>with us. Thank you for having me and happy to

1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:11.400
<v Speaker 1>come back anytime. Well, thank you what you wish for. Yes,

1:07:11.520 --> 1:07:13.920
<v Speaker 1>thank you. I'm gonna go watch everything else that I

1:07:13.960 --> 1:07:16.040
<v Speaker 1>haven't seen on your resume, and hopefully about that time

1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:19.560
<v Speaker 1>the Bernie Maid off stories out. We love you. Reliah

1:07:19.600 --> 1:07:23.720
<v Speaker 1>should have been my agents. And where can people find

1:07:23.720 --> 1:07:26.360
<v Speaker 1>you on the internet. Joe Berlinger Films. That's your Instagram. Yes,

1:07:26.640 --> 1:07:30.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't do Facebook, you never have and I'm glad um.

1:07:30.360 --> 1:07:33.680
<v Speaker 1>But Instagram is Joe Browning Films or Twitter. It is

1:07:33.720 --> 1:07:36.520
<v Speaker 1>just at Joe Browning. So now I'm going to slide

1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:38.240
<v Speaker 1>into your d m s about all the murders, so

1:07:38.400 --> 1:07:41.880
<v Speaker 1>just ignore it if you don't want to hear from me.

1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:45.080
<v Speaker 1>All I'm not going to do a story about your

1:07:45.080 --> 1:07:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Fannie pack missing. That's a story for another day. Fine, fine,

1:07:49.880 --> 1:07:52.440
<v Speaker 1>all right, thank you so much. I love you, Joe.

1:07:52.560 --> 1:08:09.280
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. Bye h wow. Okay, so not to brag,

1:08:09.320 --> 1:08:11.400
<v Speaker 1>but this was my favorite episode of Real time crime

1:08:11.480 --> 1:08:14.920
<v Speaker 1>so far thanks to Joe Burlinger. Love him. Even though

1:08:14.920 --> 1:08:18.800
<v Speaker 1>he asked you for lunch and not me, I mean, sorry, Teddy,

1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:23.720
<v Speaker 1>but I think he was. I mean, obviously he was

1:08:23.800 --> 1:08:26.320
<v Speaker 1>like I if I go to lunch with Leah, I'm

1:08:26.320 --> 1:08:30.720
<v Speaker 1>hoping he's gonna bring something she's gonna bring sometimes. And Teddy, well,

1:08:30.840 --> 1:08:33.280
<v Speaker 1>he did hear that I had a troubled childhood, so

1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:35.360
<v Speaker 1>he's interested to pick my brain and see if I

1:08:35.360 --> 1:08:38.439
<v Speaker 1>am that subject of this documentary. We all had troubled

1:08:38.520 --> 1:08:46.479
<v Speaker 1>childhoods there right now, Leah, that's why we're obsessed. I know. Okay, well,

1:08:46.880 --> 1:08:49.320
<v Speaker 1>this has been an incredible episode of real time crime.

1:08:49.400 --> 1:08:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Sorry we didn't get to all the hot topics today,

1:08:51.240 --> 1:08:52.880
<v Speaker 1>you guys, but I think we can all agree this

1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:56.320
<v Speaker 1>episode worked out way better this way. God, I love

1:08:56.360 --> 1:08:57.960
<v Speaker 1>talking to Joe. We could have interviewed him for like

1:08:58.080 --> 1:09:01.559
<v Speaker 1>nine hour straight. The has been another episode of real

1:09:01.680 --> 1:09:06.240
<v Speaker 1>time crime. I've been Lea Lamar and Teddy Meling cap

1:09:06.560 --> 1:09:10.120
<v Speaker 1>I paused always, I always, there's never not a pause

1:09:10.200 --> 1:09:14.760
<v Speaker 1>and sometimes Dmitri and guys, if you've got any sort

1:09:14.800 --> 1:09:17.639
<v Speaker 1>of question, comment, concerned case you think we should look

1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:20.760
<v Speaker 1>into or thoughts, give us a call, leave us a

1:09:20.800 --> 1:09:25.360
<v Speaker 1>voicemail at eight six six one crime that's eight six

1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:29.439
<v Speaker 1>six two one two seven four six three, eight six

1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:33.080
<v Speaker 1>six twenty one camp eight six six to any one

1:09:33.240 --> 1:09:35.960
<v Speaker 1>crime that's eight six six two one two seven four

1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:38.439
<v Speaker 1>or six three. We promise we will actually get to

1:09:38.479 --> 1:09:43.160
<v Speaker 1>one of the voicemails next episode. Okay, love you guys.

1:09:45.240 --> 1:09:52.200
<v Speaker 1>It's real time Crome, real time, I mean, is it

1:09:52.320 --> 1:09:56.160
<v Speaker 1>actually real time? Just the thing we say, the thing

1:09:56.200 --> 1:09:58.840
<v Speaker 1>we say? Got it? Okay, see you next week for

1:09:58.920 --> 1:10:01.719
<v Speaker 1>more real time only on I Heart Radio,