1 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Hello, Social Sluts, Welcome back to another episode of Real 2 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Time Crime. I'm one of your hosts, Leo Lamar, and 3 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: I have with me my wonderful co host Hattie Mellencamp, 4 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: and of course we've got sometimes Dmitri, who you know 5 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: and love sometimes. Today we'll be discussing mother quarantining her 6 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: COVID positive son on the trunk of her car. L 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: O l continued investigation regarding the accidental murder on set 8 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: of Alec Baldwin's rust Ahmad Aurbury and rounding it out 9 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: with the death of Robert Durst, before we head over 10 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: to an interview with Joe Burlinger, the director of crime 11 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: scene The Times Square Killer, which is trending on Netflix 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: right now. I told you all to watch it. I 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: hope you did your homework, and hopefully we can get 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: to voice military before we close up for today. But first, Teddy, 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: any updates on finding your missing cell phone? Nothing, you guys, Nothing, 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: not one from none of you. And you know what, 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: I'm disappointed. I feel like a lot of your listeners 18 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: may live an asthmen and may have seen it. And 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: but I will tell you one thing that did happen. 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: I opened a drawer and I saw a piece of 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: the purse. I saw and I was like, but really, 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: it was just the piece when you decide to not 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: wear it as a Fannie pack, when you decided to 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: carry it like this, that that's all it was. And 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: that just made you more sad, and it just made 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: me more sad that I'm still without and I've now 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: had to learn, Look how big this phone is. Though 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: it's not bigger than my person, Yeah it's bigger than 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: my head. But I'm how's your voice? I don't know 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: she's emotional about I'm about the missing Fannie pack. But yeah, 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: that's what's been happening. Nothing's been found, but I do 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: at least have a regular phone. I had to settle 33 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: on light blue, which is an ideal for a forty 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: year old mother. But sometimes you take what you can get, 35 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: and I just can I just say one thing real quick, 36 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: I feel badly. Leah's face lit up when you said 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: I opened a drawer and found a pie a piece 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: of the fan pack. She literally thought like someone sent 39 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: you a part of it, like a ransom thing, and 40 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: you were like, but it's just an extra part, and 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: she was like, we're going to have a real crime 42 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: on our hands, you know what I mean? Just the 43 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: idea of someone taunting Teddy with like a Louis Batons 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: liver is someone did taunted me with that. I was like, also, 45 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: who does pieces like? Then I had to look it 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: up on Revolve and see why there was a missing piece, 47 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I never took that piece 48 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: to Aspen. It's just devastating, really it is. But all 49 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 1: of our listeners who were dying for us to move on, 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: I say, hey, we got some I say, you haven't 51 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: been without a phone for seven days, and I would 52 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: lose my mind. I mean, my mind is already. Let's 53 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: be fair. Let's be fair. Are you having a coffee 54 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: right now? Sometimes? Yes? What are you drinking? Sure? No, 55 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: it is a it's a coffee, it's it's a it's 56 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: a vodka tonic. I have to be honest. I'm having 57 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: a glass of wine because I just came from my 58 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: other podcast and we were raging. That's not a slap 59 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: in the face. I'm sorry. Yeah, first of all, how 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: dare you? I can't help it. Sometimes this is what happens. 61 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: You know what. I'll just say, I appreciate you calling it. 62 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: The other podcast your main. I feel like you're where 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: you're playing squeezing where you are the main. I mean, 64 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: it's hard to describe the level of me. I am. 65 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: It's either I'm talking true crime or I'm talking trap 66 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: about housewives. It's it's really hard, which is another crime 67 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: in and of itself. It's a different type. Yeah, speaking 68 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: of a different type of crime, shall we head into 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: our hot topics for today? And Lucian, I mean, let's 70 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: just started off with a Texas mother who's charged after 71 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: her fourteen year old son is found in the trunk 72 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: of her car to drive through COVID testing site. She 73 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: claims that he tested positive and needed to be quarantine, 74 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: so she's being faced with endangerment charges. And oh boy. 75 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Sarah Beam, forty two from the Cypress Fairbanks area near Houston, 76 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: I mean, it's Texas. What do you want us to 77 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: say about it, allegedly packed the team in the trunk 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: as she drove to the testing site after he tested 79 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: positive for the virus on January three to get another test. 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: They issued a warrant for her arrest on Friday, and 81 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: please say Beam pulled to the giant pulled up to 82 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: the giant tent set up and the Health services director 83 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: at the site hurt a noise in her trunk. Sorry, 84 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: this is what I swear. I'm like, am I reading 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: an article from the Onion? But are the same? She 86 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: brought him to get retested. It's not like she knew 87 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: they were gonna have to like test him. He's in 88 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: the trunk. She didn't see anything wrong with this. Well, 89 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: it's because she didn't want to get herself. She didn't 90 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: want to get COVID. Yeah, she said that she was 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: protecting herself from the virus. Well, I can tell you 92 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: guys this from personal experience. So yesterday, how's your cough? Leah? 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: I muted so people wouldn't have to hear it. I 94 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: saw it though. Um yesterday I get a call. I 95 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: take the kids to the bus. They had to get 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 1: COVID tested at nine am. Um. The day before, I 97 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: get a call it nine thirty on Monday, Hey, um, teddy, 98 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: Mrs sari Abe cruises in the nurse's office. He had 99 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: a headache for a minute, you have to come get him. 100 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: And I was like, he had a headache for a minute, 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: and did we lock him in the trunk of the car. 102 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: And honestly, I almost dead. I go, um, does he 103 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: feel sick? Does he have a temperature? And they're like, 104 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: he's logged as an all this so he cannot be 105 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: at school until he gets a negtive COVID test he 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: gets in the car. I'm honestly like pedals in the medal, like, Cruise, 107 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: unless you were sick, do not go to the nurse's office. Again, 108 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: He's like, Mom, I really just wanted more water. I 109 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 1: don't know what you want me to say, but I 110 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: feel the moment of locking your kids in the trunk 111 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: for that. Yeah, this was, um, I feel it. This 112 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: woman locking her kid in the trunk. Well, it's two 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: seconds away from hiring an uber to pick him up. 114 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: I was two seconds away from locking Cruise in the 115 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: trunk for going to the nurses office for a second 116 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: of a headache too that he didn't have that. Then 117 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: he the second he got in the car, goes, can 118 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: I go still get a football? No, you just threatened 119 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: to have COVID at school and I have to pay 120 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty dollars to get a COVID test 121 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: for you to go back tomorrow. Why don't they have 122 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: COVID tests at school? They do, but they don't have 123 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: the rapids. You can go the next day. Why didn't 124 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: cruise have water? He did have water. He just asked 125 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: his teacher for more water because he had run out. 126 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: And then he said, I'm getting a headache from not 127 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: having water, and then that's considered an ILLNESST so he's dehydrated. Yeah, 128 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: is he turning into a white woman in l A 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: pretty much? So you know what, the next time he 130 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: does that, he may end up in my trunk. Hilarious. 131 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: I got. I was like, Okay, we're gonna start off 132 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: with the drive through the woman that that locker sound, 133 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: and we're all gonna think that's ridiculous, and then we'll 134 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: move on to the story. But okay, fine, I wouldn't 135 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: really put him in the trunk unless it was an STV. 136 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: Oh I thought you said okay, SUV. Then it's like 137 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: it goes up. Oh my god, you guys are so 138 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: sensitive today. Came in here. Yeah, I'm sorry, but you 139 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: you came in here hot, being like look at me. 140 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: I just came here from my other podcast, and I 141 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: dressed up for them. I don't dress up for you guys, 142 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: and also do like my new setup. And now we 143 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: feel We're like in the same setup. You thought I 144 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: was in the same setup. Don't you see the basketball? 145 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: Who Okay, I do know that you're I'm sure you're 146 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: a wonderful mother, but what you're doing is you're sitting 147 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: here drinking wine and you're like, oh, my kid needed water, 148 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: screw him, throwing him in the trunk of the I 149 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: guess I can't make jokes today. Fine, No, you can 150 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: just take him to make get another COVID test. Should 151 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: we get into Alec Baldwin speaking of good parenting again? 152 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Hot on the Segway. All right, We're ready for it. 153 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: Following reports that actor Alec Baldwin's cell phone had not 154 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: yet been turned over to officials investigating the fatal shooting 155 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: on the Rust film set, weeks after a search warant 156 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: was granted, Alex said on Saturday that any suggestion that 157 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: he was not complying with law enforcement was in fact 158 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: a lie. The police in Santa Fe, New Mexico, obtain 159 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: a search warrant more than three three weeks ago, granting 160 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: it access to information on Mr Baldwin's phone related to 161 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: the October shooting, during which a gun that Alec was 162 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: rehearsing with fire to live round, killing the movie cinematographer 163 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 1: and wounding its director. Filming himself from the driver's seat 164 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: of a parked car, Alex said that the process for 165 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: recovering information from his phone takes time and involved the 166 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: authorities in New Mexico coordinating with the authorities where he 167 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: lives a k New York. Someone from another state can't 168 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: come to you and say give me your cell phone, 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: Alex said in the video, adding that they have to 170 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,719 Speaker 1: specify exactly what they want. They can't just go through 171 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: your phone and take, you know, your photos or your 172 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: love letters to your wife or what have you. According 173 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: to an afidavit filed in the application for the search 174 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: warrant granted by a judge in New Mexico in December sixteenth, 175 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: Detective Alexander Hancock asked Mr Baldwin and his lawyer on 176 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: the day of the fail shooting to hand over his phone, 177 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: but was told to obtain a warrant. When the search 178 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: warrant for Mr Baldwin's phone was granted, officials in Santa 179 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: Fe requested help from the sheriff office in Suvolk County 180 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: and New York, where Mr Baldwin was and has a home. Apparently, 181 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: they said that the crust the request had been forwarded 182 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: to the county's district attorney's office to work out the 183 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: differences and laws between the two states. Okay, so why 184 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: do you guys think that this investigation is lower than usual? 185 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: Do you think Alex Alec is I think the part 186 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: of the problem is Hilaria You mean Hillary? Well, all 187 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: I know is that Hilaria Baldwin's Instagram is something that 188 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: I go deep down. I can't turn it off, like 189 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: I I need to understand so many dynamics in regards 190 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: to her. Like I'm watching it, I'm like, are we 191 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: really going to believe that she has seven DTYO kids? 192 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Was zero help? She's constantly breastfeeding. There's no there's all 193 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: of it. And then I read and something that said 194 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: as Alec Baldwin struggling because of his wife Laria, And 195 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: and now I don't know what do you guys think. 196 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this case is just I think it's 197 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: I actually don't feel like it's moving slower than the normal. 198 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: I think most cases take a while. I think we're 199 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: just looking into it and waiting for some like juicy 200 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: headlines or something, and they're just not there. You think 201 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: this was just an accident. I mean, it's possible. But 202 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: either way, this little stuff is coming out like, oh, 203 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: he's not complying with the cell phone. To me, that's 204 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: just I think that's the media trying to spin a 205 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: narrative allege. I think that there's just no story and 206 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: they're trying to make a story out of it. But 207 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, it seems like a terrible tragedy and horrible 208 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: accident and maybe no one I don't know. I don't 209 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: know if they're trying to figure out who, if someone 210 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: should go to jail for this. Um. I mean, there 211 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: was a live round in the gun, and there should 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: never be a live round, so someone is responsible for that, 213 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: and I don't know what the judicial system will say, 214 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: but I don't I don't know. I don't know what 215 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out with Alex Boon. I mean, 216 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: I think they're trying to see how much he knew. 217 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: But either way, I just don't see that he's at fault. 218 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: I just in my mind, I just don't think he 219 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: had all the information. From what I have heard in 220 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: regards to Alec Baldwin, I don't think he's the type 221 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: of person that you want to give all the information to. 222 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I don't think he's that easy going type that you're like, 223 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna vent to you or tell you what's 224 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: going on. I think he's more that you you shield 225 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: if things are going wrong. I hope that people speak 226 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: about me like this. One day. It was the way 227 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: I was speaking of positive Yeah. I wouldn't be left 228 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: out of all information, you know. I just I feel 229 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: like ignorance is bliss um. But guests, who's in the 230 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: waiting room? I'm so excited, And shall we do a 231 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: little intro and then bring him in or yeah, that's 232 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: all you? I'm why don't we take a quick break 233 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: and regroup? And thanks Dmitri for knowing what we need sometimes. 234 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: Thank you sum Sommy, and welcome back to real time Crime. 235 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: We have with us my friend Joe Burlinger, who is 236 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: the director of Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer, which 237 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: is trending on Netflix. If you don't know Joe, he 238 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: is a filmmaker and producer particularly focused on true crime documentaries. 239 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: Joe's films and docuseries draw massive attention to social justice 240 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: issues in the United States and abroad. In such films 241 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: as Brothers Keeper, Paradise Laws, The Child Murders at robin 242 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: Hood Hills, Crude White, United States of America Versus James J. Boulger, 243 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: and Intend to Destroy, Death, Denial and Depiction. He's also 244 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: best known for the film series Paradise Lost, which documents 245 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: the murder trial and the subsequent legal battles of the 246 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: three Arkansas teenagers Damien Eccles, Jason Baldwin and Jessie mus 247 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: Kelly Jr. Convicted of murder. The film series brought mainstream 248 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: attention to this case, and a ton of celebrities took 249 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: up the case of getting these young men out of 250 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: prison and getting Ecles off of death row. The mainstream 251 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: attention brought on by the documentary series allowed for a 252 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: well finance legal team to investigate every lead on the case. 253 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: He's also spearheaded and directed to twenty nineteen projects centered 254 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: on the infamous serial killer Ted Bundy, the Netflix docuseries 255 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: Conversations with the Killer, the Ted Bunny Tapes, and the 256 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: drama film Extremely Wicked, Shocking, the Evil and Vile starring 257 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: Zac Efron, And then, finally, in collaboration with journalist Greg Milner, 258 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: Joe wrote the book Metallica. The Monster lives about his 259 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: early career, accomplishments and challenges forging his path in the 260 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: world of film. This book is centered around the filming 261 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: of Metallica Some Kind of Monster, and Joe is a 262 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: dear friend of mine from back in my days in 263 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: New York and a very very honored and excited to 264 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: have him here. And hello, Joe Lea, how are you? Joe? 265 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm great? How are you? Were so excited you're here? Here, 266 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: Joe are We're so fabulous? How are you? I'm good, 267 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm good. Great to see. Joe and I have known 268 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: each other for I don't want to say by almost 269 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: a decade now. More than that, perhaps I'm trying to 270 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: pretend him twenty How did you guys? Mean that's how 271 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: about all of you you've seen? When I'm first at you, 272 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank you so much. It was only 273 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: a couple of years off. We met at Radical Media 274 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: many months ago in New York City, and I can't 275 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: even remember at that time which project you were working on, 276 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: because so many more have come out since then, but 277 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: I think it was around actually Paradise Loss, it might 278 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: have been, And I mean, that's probably one of the 279 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: most iconic projects to ever come out. Uh, I guess 280 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: I have to agree with you. I mean, you did 281 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: get someone off of death Row. I do think Paradise Lost, 282 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: does you know? Is up there in the annals of 283 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: true crime. Um, But I'll let you say that, not me. 284 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: It's perfect. And when you were not here, I already 285 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: gave you a beautiful introduction listing all of your credits 286 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: and all that you've really contributed to since thatt to 287 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: Society and we know that you know you were a 288 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: true crime aficionado, but your career also spans more than 289 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: just true crime, and we'll get into that a little bit. 290 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: But we are here today to talk about your new 291 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: documentary that's trending on Netflix, Crime Scene, The Times Square Killer. 292 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: I watched every episode obsessively, already posted about an Instagram, 293 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: told everyone to watch it. I absolutely loved it. It's 294 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: a three part limited series on Netflix right now. By 295 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: the way, for all of you that haven't watched it, 296 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: do your homework before listening and then come back to 297 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: this episode just in case you don't want any you know, spoilers. 298 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: But this documentary examines the notorious case of Richard Cottingham. 299 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: Also known as the Torso Killer, who claimed to have raped, slaughtered, 300 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: and mutilated more than a hundred women between nineteen sixty 301 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: seven and night. So, um, I know that we all 302 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: watched it, we all loved it, we all binged it. Joe, 303 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: fabulous work. Yet again, as always, can I say, I know, 304 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: I know this is what you do as a director, 305 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: but I really enjoyed you took me back to that time. 306 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: It's one thing sometimes you're just watching something You're like, Okay, 307 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm trying to piece together, but knowing time square the 308 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: way time squares now is not that So you really 309 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: brought me back to I'm gonna stop short of saying 310 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: I felt like a sex worker in Time Square, but 311 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: I felt like I was in that time and I 312 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: thought that was fantastic and I thought it really I 313 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: appreciate that. I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that way 314 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: because that was really an important, you know mission. And 315 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: you know, first of all, the series is about how 316 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: a location. It's not just the story of Cottingham, uh, 317 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: it's the story of the whole series is rooted in 318 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: how does the location and a in a particular time 319 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: period and societal values contribute to a crime. So season 320 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: one we did Cecil Hotel in Los Angeles, talked about 321 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: the homelessness problem and all sorts of l A policies 322 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: that drove people to create this skid row in l A, 323 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: which contributed to the perception of crime at the Cecil 324 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: and this and for this season actually Time Square in 325 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: the seventies. I remember, I was a teenager. My first 326 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: love before before movies, was actually magic, doing magic tricks. 327 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: And there was a magic a very famous magic store 328 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: in Times Square called Lu Tannin's, which is still a 329 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: very famous magic store. But they moved to the uh 330 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: they moved more downtown, but they were in the heart 331 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: of Times Square at the time. I was, you know, 332 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: a teenager, and it's like a totally different world on 333 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: so many levels. The fact that my parents would allow 334 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: me to take the train from the suburbs, which I did, 335 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: and you get off the Grand Central you walk, you know, 336 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: four or five blocks from Grand Central to Times Square 337 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: as a teenager, you know, I just remember vividly, just 338 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: you know, walking, you know, looking in the windows of 339 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: Times Square, of the sex joints, you know, as a 340 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen year old looking at things you're not 341 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: supposed to look at and being simultaneously you know, titillated, 342 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: I will admit, and also like scared to death with 343 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: my wallet in my front pocket and like, you know, 344 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: you're taking your life into your hands. Uh, you know 345 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: when you went into Times Square. And in fact, the 346 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: whole idea to do the series is I took my 347 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: daughter cut to twenty nineteen, and I took my twenty 348 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: year old daughter to Hamilton's over the holidays in December 349 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: of twenty nine, before we knew of COVID. What a 350 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: different time, you know, not not too long ago, but 351 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, a long time ago. And 352 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: we you know, we went to a mattenee of Hamilton's 353 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: and then kind of came out at you know, dinner 354 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: time Times Square, the lights, the action, the you know, 355 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: Disney logos. And I said to my daughter, and I 356 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: just seeing my daughter's face, how excited she was to 357 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: be in Time Square during the holidays. And I said, 358 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, when I was you know, your age, and 359 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: I went into Time Square, you would be taking your 360 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: life into your hands. And then all of a sudden, 361 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, because we had been talking with Netflix 362 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: about what's a good idea for season two. I'm like, yes, 363 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: Time Square in the seventies would be it would be 364 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: great because, you know, not for gratuitous reasons. It's it's 365 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: just a particular time and place that all of these 366 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: forces came together to create this horrible legacy of predatory 367 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: behavior that you know, and unnoticed and people just didn't care, 368 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: you know, And that is an issue still today that 369 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: sex workers are neglected. Crimes against sex workers are treated 370 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: differently than than crimes against other people. And you know, 371 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: that's that's a problem. Everyone deserves justice, and whether it's 372 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: saying a little who I did a series about a 373 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: year and a half ago who killed with impunity because 374 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: he for forty years because he preyed upon uh, women 375 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: of color who were sex workers, or Richard Cottingham, it's 376 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's just just nobody seemed to care. Now. No. 377 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: I know why I connected with this because I grew 378 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: up taking the train into New York from arriving at 379 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: Grand Central and I had the same type of thing 380 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: the memories of Times Square like that. Do you I 381 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: just was curious, do you feel like they thought? I know. 382 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: It's also there's some just kickiness to it to some 383 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: statistics stuff. Do you think people thought if I kill 384 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: because I know the l a strangler and all that 385 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: that was sex workers? All was it just I can 386 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: get away with this because nobody gives ship. I think 387 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: that's you know, Cottingham started off. You know, we later 388 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: learned Cottingham started off not killing sex workers, but younger 389 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: teenage girls and a cup and a nurse who was 390 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: not a teenage girl. You know. His early killings were 391 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: in and around his hometown in New Jersey, across the river, 392 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: and and those prompted investigations and things started heating up. 393 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: And I think it was it was a big part 394 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: of the reason that he then shifted his attention to 395 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: Times Square. You know, he worked at Blue Cross and 396 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: Blue Shield, which was on Third Avenue and not too 397 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: far from Times Square, and he just realized that he 398 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: could get away with us, you know, and you know, honestly, 399 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: particularly in Los Angeles, you know, police were famous in 400 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: this time period if if a sex worker was found 401 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: in a dumpster or in a back alley murdered, they 402 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: would literally classify it as as no human involved, you know, 403 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: the phrase they use because it wasn't worth. What that 404 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: meant was We're not going to put our resources into 405 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: this murder because it's a sex worker and who cares? 406 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: So um, it was a troubling trend, and you know 407 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: it's gotten better, but it's you know, there's still such 408 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: a stigma against sex work in general, and a stigma 409 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: against murders of sex workers. You know. It's so interesting 410 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: by the way that Times Square is a character in 411 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: the documentary. And I remember growing up in New York 412 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: and it was a Broadway playground when I was a kid. 413 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: But when I was a kid, going south of St. 414 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: Mark's was terrified m and I remember you could buy 415 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: a fake I D on the street for twenty bucks 416 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: and you would see people shooting up on the street, 417 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 1: just crusties or whatever people would call them, in the 418 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: park nearby, shooting up. Now it's not like that either. 419 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: And then by the time I was working a radical, 420 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, St. Mark's had kind of become a play ground, 421 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: and then the gentrification moved down and I would go 422 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: to Bushwick and I would feel the same way where 423 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: I would feel, oh God, it's so dangerous here. And 424 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting to see how all of these areas keep 425 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: getting gentrified as the city. I would say grows up. Yeah, 426 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: well it's well, Manhattan has become a place for mainly 427 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: the wealthy, and you know, people who aren't don't have means, 428 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: have been pushed out of Manhattan. I mean that's not completely. 429 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: You know, there are obviously middle class people in Manhattan, 430 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: but generally it's become an island of the wealthy, you know, 431 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: the international wealthy, and the crime gets put pushed, pushed 432 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: to the outer boroughs. The question I had when I 433 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: was watching it and watching Cottingham, how do you think 434 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: that somebody like him is able to maintain a regular 435 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: household and being married and have a family and live 436 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: this completely other life, Like how are you able to 437 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: live both ways? Like how can you trick your wife? 438 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: How can you trick your friends? How can you trick 439 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: your employee, like the people that you work with? Yeah, 440 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: now that's that's what you hit the nail on the head. 441 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: That's that's the question I'm obsessed with, you know, And 442 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: it's it's whenever I do a serial killer show, some 443 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: people say, why are you giving him a platform? Why 444 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: you give you know, there's there is some pushback today 445 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: on doing shows like this, But the reason I keep 446 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: returning to this subject, is it just first of all 447 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: as a as a cautionary tale to people that these 448 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: people exist. But more importantly, you know, we we uh, 449 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: we want to think that people who do evil are 450 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: evil all the time, that they're that that you know, 451 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: like in you know, Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lambs, 452 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: that they just look creepy in the moment you see them, 453 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, to protect yourself because they present as evil. 454 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: But that but the having done true crime to thirty 455 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: years and done real cases, you know, generally speaking, whether 456 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: it's you know, a pedophilic priest or Bernie made Off 457 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: or Richard Cottingham, the people who do evil in this 458 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: world are generally people that you least expect and most 459 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: often trust. And that's the disturbing thing because they get 460 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: off on that, right, they get off on it. And 461 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: also from a you know, from a just warning people 462 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: out there, like you know, just because somebody seems trustworthy, 463 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: you know, there's a certain threashold you should you know, 464 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: not give give your trust to people, you know, which 465 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: I know is a is a down message. But you know, 466 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: when I decided to do the Bundy stuff, you know, 467 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: I did Bundy both the movie with zac Efron and 468 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: the unscripted conversations with the Killer on Netflix. And when 469 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the opportunity first was presented me to me to do 470 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: the Bundy tapes because the author of the book that 471 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: the tapes were based on reached out and said, Hey, 472 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: I have these tapes from thirty years ago. Do you 473 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: think there's something here? And I thought to myself, well, God, 474 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: Bundy is such a well known story. Everybody knows the 475 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: story of Bundy. But I was sitting around dinner with 476 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: my two daughters, my college aged daughters, who were home 477 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: for vacation, and I asked him, you know who Ted 478 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: Bundy is? And both both of my daughters are incredibly 479 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: bright women at the time, one was going to Columbia, 480 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: one was just starting at M I t s you know, 481 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: smart kids. And I know that sounds like I'm not 482 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: just coming from a bob but but but neither one 483 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: of them knew who Ted Bundy was. And I said, really, well, 484 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: ask some of your friends. And like the feedback I 485 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: got from twenty year olds twenty two year olds was 486 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: we don't know who Ted Bundy is or wasn't he 487 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: a serial killer or whatever? And that encouraged me to like, well, 488 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: now it's time to retell his story because you can 489 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: never tell the story of this man enough as a 490 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: cautionary tale that just because somebody looks and acts trustworthy 491 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you should trust them. And that's that's the 492 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: thing that Bob goles my mind is, you know, is 493 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: how people can you know, be that deceptive? And have 494 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: you know Bundy had a girl. I mean, the whole 495 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: movie was, you know, extremely wicked, was through the eyes 496 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: of Lily Collins, who was the girlfriend. And she believed 497 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: in Bundy for years because he was such a wonderful 498 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: father and it's not surrogate father to her daughter and 499 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: a wonderful boyfriend. Uh. And you know, so how people 500 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: do these things is incredible. But you know, you can 501 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: take that a step further. How do you know climate 502 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: denying oil executives go to bed at night, you know, 503 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: you know, perpetrating the system that's killing the planet apparently 504 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: relatively exactly. So like like people's ability to compartmentalize and 505 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: still think they're good people, uh, you know is part 506 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: of human nature. But when it comes to doing the 507 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: things that these particular monsters do and then having a 508 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: normal home life is mind boggling. The other reason I 509 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: wanted to do Cottingham is and you know, obviously many 510 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: crime aficionados know his name, but for the most part, 511 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: most people don't know who Richard Cottingham is. Everyone knows 512 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: who Bundy is, everyone knows who Gaycy is. Who knows 513 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: who dam Or is um, you know, but Cottingham is 514 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: not on that list. And yet he might have killed 515 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: over a hundred women in a horrifying way. And why 516 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: don't we know him because he killed sex workers and 517 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: nobody seems to carry sex workers as victims. Well, and 518 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: I think that's what's nice about you know, you said 519 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: that people sometimes say, why are you giving this person 520 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: a platform? It is that What you also do is 521 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: you take these victims and you explain who they were, 522 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: and you you know, you you hear from one of 523 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: their kids and you and so you actually humanize them 524 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: and you're not leaving them behind. Is just somebody that 525 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: didn't matter to society quote unquote that just got killed 526 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: and all the focuses on the killer. You kind of, 527 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, you bring these people in life and you 528 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: realize these were real people, regardless of what they did 529 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: for a living. They did it for certain reasons, which 530 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: is what the life that they had, but it doesn't 531 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: mean that they should just be, you know, just a 532 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,719 Speaker 1: nameless person in a in a story. And Joe just 533 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: as zoom out for a second, because clearly we're not 534 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: just going to be talking about crime scene. We've already 535 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: started covering other cases that you've covered, and we talked 536 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: about the Cecil Hotel on here and I'm personally obsessed 537 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: with the Elite Lam. I still think it's the Elevator game. 538 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: But other than that, I just want to say, you know, 539 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: Joe as one of the most brilliant and prolific documentarians 540 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: of our generation and creating art that actually has purpose 541 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: and winning many Emmy's. You know, your work spans so 542 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: many cases. You covered the West Memphis three, you got 543 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: Damian Eccles off of Death Row. You know your art 544 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: how a function and that's I would say, almost rare 545 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: these days. And so we are really honored that you 546 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: are coming here today on Real Time Crime with me 547 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: and Teddy and Dmitri to talk about all things true 548 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: crime at this moment. And I just wanted to zoom 549 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: out a little because your brain is so interesting to 550 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: me and I know that you don't just do true crime, 551 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: but we're just so curious about your interest in filmmaking 552 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: and how you got started and if this was something 553 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: you always wanted to do. Interesting. First of all, thank 554 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: you for all those compliments. Much appreciated kind of you. 555 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: You know, I have to say a lot of people 556 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: were involved in getting Damian Echoes out of prison. I mean, 557 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: the films were definitely a catalyst, but there was a 558 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of great minds at work to 559 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: make that happen. Um. You know, it's interesting. I came 560 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: to filmmaking very late. I was always uh, you know, 561 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: in college. Honestly, I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um. 562 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: I was a language made or and I was particularly 563 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: became through my studies, not because of any home connection. 564 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: I became fluent in German and I was as a 565 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: and I mean the reason I became fluent with German 566 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: is I was obsessed with the Holocaust, you know. But 567 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: we were not Jewish at home. We had no Jewish 568 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: traditions at home. Really, I mean we were Jewish, but 569 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 1: not observant. I was, you know, I'm a fifth generation German, 570 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: but no German was spoken at home. Um, you know, 571 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: like my great great great grandfather came over from Germany 572 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: long before the Holocaust. But I was exposed in my 573 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: teens to the Holocaust liberation footage of the camps, and 574 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: it's just it's just, you know, it's just it spoke 575 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: to me deeply, and it caused me to want to 576 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: learn German in high school because I wanted to have 577 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: a more deeper understanding of that kind of horror and 578 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: have something like that could happen And was there something 579 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: particularly wrong with Germans versus is there a larger way 580 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: to look at this, which so by the time I 581 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: got to college, I ended up majoring in languages and 582 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: German was my main language that I spoke fluently. Again, 583 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: out of studies, no one spoke German at home, and 584 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: so I kind of stumbled my way into a job 585 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: at Ogilvie and Mayther, which is a big New York 586 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: ad agency or international ad agency that had an office 587 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: in Frankfort and needed a young American guy who or 588 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: gal but it was me spoke multiple languages. So I 589 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: found myself I kind of you know, bluffed my way 590 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: into a job as a junior producer in Frankfurt, Germany 591 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: in the mid eighties, and the first time I was 592 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: ever on a TV set or film set was was 593 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: a Nest Cafe commercial being shot in Germany. Uh. And 594 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: that's when, you know, just being around production, that's when 595 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: the light bulb went off, Oh, I think I want 596 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: to get into this film thing, not this language thing. 597 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: My only all in college was to figure out how 598 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: to go to Europe and be paid to speak languages 599 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: I mean, and it resulted in this job with Ogilvie. 600 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: And then around the same time, Jim Jarmusch is Stranger 601 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: Than Paradise was. I saw it in a cinema in 602 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: Germany and as I was thinking about, oh, I want 603 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: to be a filmmaker, um, and that it's just all 604 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: kind of congealed. And then I was sent back to 605 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: New York figuring back with Ogilvie, working on advertisements on 606 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: American on the American Express account, and I was thinking, 607 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: how do I get how do I get out of 608 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: advertising and into film? You know, this is a really 609 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: long answer, you know, but that's the origin story. Um. 610 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: And so uh, the irony of becoming a noted documentarian is, 611 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, I come back to New York. I'm I'm 612 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm a junior producer producer, this time working on American 613 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: Express campaign. And for this part cular campaign, the agency 614 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: and the client decided they wanted like a more real 615 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: people documentary style commercial and unscripted commercial, which was new 616 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: at the time. Now it's very commonplace, and so the 617 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, we had the idea to hire the Mazel Brothers, 618 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, seminal documentarians to shoot this real people American 619 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: Express commercial and I kind of hit it off with 620 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: David Mazel's who was the brother who died short a 621 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: few years later. But they were looking to be called 622 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: more to do commercials because you know, documentaries and those 623 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: and those those days weren't very profitable, and so doing 624 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: more commercials to supplement their income was an idea that 625 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: they were liked, and they thought somebody like me could 626 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 1: help them get more commercial So I joined the Mazel Brothers, 627 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, the seminal documentarians, who did give me shelter 628 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: and great garden salesman like classics of the genre. So 629 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: they hired me to be their executive producer of commercials, 630 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: which was really just a glorified sales job where I 631 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: would go to ad agencies and show them they're real 632 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: and say, hey, you do really do more real people commercials. 633 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,439 Speaker 1: And that's where I got my documentary education, and then 634 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 1: you know, eventually I made it. I decided I wanted 635 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: to take my try my hand at a documentary. And 636 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: my actually, my first documentary was was very comedic Lea 637 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: and you would have enjoyed it. In particular called the 638 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: Outrageous Taxi Stories, and I interviewed cappies to fell the 639 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: most outrageous whatever happened to see that whatever happened in 640 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: their caves, and that got you know, some attention and 641 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: went to some film festivals, and then that's where I 642 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: met Bruce Snowsky, who was my filmmaking partner for many 643 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: years because he was an editor at Nasals. And then 644 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: he and I were looking for a verite doc because 645 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a lot of exceptions to the rule. 646 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: You know, people like Barbara Copple and whatnot. But during 647 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: the eighties, you know, document you like pure cinema. Verite 648 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: documentaries as an art was kind of dying out, and 649 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: documentaries were very kind of no no offense. I love 650 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: Ken Burns, but documentaries were very kind of talking head 651 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: PBSC kind of things, and these these great adventures of 652 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: following a story as they're unfolding was kind of not 653 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: that popular in the eighties, and so Bruce and I said, 654 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: let's find a story and do a classic, you know, 655 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: verite film, and that's how Brothers Keeper was born. And 656 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: then I was on my way. And you know, we 657 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: gambled everything a dozen credit cards, second mortgages on homes 658 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: and gambled literally everything to get Brothers Keeper in the 659 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: can and luckily it was invited to Sundance and we 660 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: want a prize, and then we had a career. But 661 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: the irony at that period where I was like, I 662 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: want to get into film. I don't want to work 663 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: in advertising. You know, if I if we had hired 664 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: Ridley Scott. It wasn't like I had a particular interest 665 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: in documentaries, but if we had hired Ridley Scott to 666 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: shoot the American Express commercial, and if I had happened 667 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 1: to have hit it off with Ridley Scott or whomever, 668 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: I could have easily have gone in that direction. So 669 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: there's there's a certain amount of you know, serendipity to 670 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: my career. But when I look back, now, you know, 671 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason. And I think that this genre, 672 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: this style of filmmaking. You know, I've done both, but 673 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: I'll never not be a documentarian because I just it's 674 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: I can say this now. I've been doing it long enough. 675 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 1: It's just been like this incredible adventure, you know, where 676 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: you get to drop into people's lives, whether it's a 677 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: week or a year or three years or whatever, and 678 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: just you get to witness things you wouldn't normally ever experience. 679 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: And so I'm really glad it turned out this way. 680 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: But it's just kind of funny that was never the intention. 681 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, I was twelve and running 682 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 1: around with a Super eight camera and wanting to make films. 683 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: You know, do you have like a favorite story or 684 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: a case that you loved researching that you still can't 685 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: get out of your mind that you still want answers 686 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: on Um, that's a good question. I would answer it 687 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: differently because anytime I can promote this idea I want 688 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 1: to is you know, I did a show about a 689 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: guy named Richard Glossip who's in on Oklahoma's death row, 690 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: who is so innocent, And you know, I did a 691 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: multipart series called Killing Richard Glossip and this guy is 692 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: that you know, he's They literally sent him to the 693 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: death chamber three times, and they halted the execution, you know, 694 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: sometimes within minutes of the execution, once because uh, there 695 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: was a stay, once because they had twice actually because 696 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: they had the wrong chemicals. You know, they literally had 697 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: the portal in his arm and they were ready to press, 698 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: you know, kill uh, and they realized they had the 699 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 1: wrong chemicals and they stopped the execution. And then because 700 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: of all that mishaps with Oklahoma executions, this and some 701 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: other incidents where they literally had the wrong ingredients, which 702 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: in a horrifying you know, could you imagine being you know, 703 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: on a gurney and rolled in to be killed and 704 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: you know they stop it right, you know, like seconds before, Um, 705 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: what are the ingredients they have? I'm like, what are 706 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 1: they putting? Like rosemary and time in there? Like what's happening? Well, 707 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: they use a cocktail of three chemicals. One of those 708 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: chemicals is supposed to be potassium chloride, but instead they 709 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: use potassium acetate and all the time that just creates 710 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: incredible pain and suffering in the person who is being executed. 711 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: Actually killed somebody before glossip with the wrong chemicals, and 712 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: then they were about to do it again with clossip 713 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: when they suddenly stopped the execution. So not only is 714 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: this guy innocent, uh, you know, and if you looked 715 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: into the case details itself, which is so mind boggling 716 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: that this guy ever could have been put on death row. Uh, 717 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: he's been sent to the death chamber not once, but 718 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: three times. And the third time they almost to use 719 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: the wrong chemicals. I mean, so disturbing that that can 720 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: even happen. I think the question is like, what's worse 721 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: than death? Yeah, I think worse than death is surviving 722 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: and knowing you're the worst human ever. In Oklahoma, in Oklahoma, 723 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: they have a procedure where you know, there's two levels 724 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: of death row. There's like the nicer part of death 725 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: row in quotation marks because it ain't nice UM where 726 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: if you're if your execution is still far off, that's 727 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: your you're in general population. But thirty five days before 728 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: you're executed, they take you to a different level where 729 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: and they progressively move you closer and closer to UM 730 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: to the actual execution chamber. Uh. And lights are on 731 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: seven your mattresses like half an inch thick on the floor, 732 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: so basically want to wear you out so that you 733 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: just accept death. So poor Richard Glossop um, you know, 734 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: went through this three times. And because of the mishap 735 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:15,760 Speaker 1: with using wrong the wrong ingredients for the lethal injection, 736 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: Oklahoma for several years has had a moratorium on executions, 737 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: but now it's been reinstated. Executions are starting again in Oklahoma. 738 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: And this guy, Richard Glossop, is you know, high on 739 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: the list to be executed. So that story haunts me 740 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: because I feel like I've done everything i can, both 741 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: filmically and otherwise to help promote the case. And here's 742 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 1: a guy who's so clearly innocent that you know, has 743 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: a good chance of being executed, which happens way too 744 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: often in this country, which is why we shouldn't have 745 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 1: a death penalty. But that's probably a subject for another day. 746 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: I have to ask one more question. I'm obsessed. Why 747 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: are women obsessed with marrying serial killers? On Beth Roum. 748 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: Why you talking about me like that? Teddy? I mean, 749 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: and Lea just trying to tow around it, like also 750 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: a co host on the podcast, but like I need 751 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: to understand, Like when you talked about Ted Bundy or 752 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: any of like you see so many beautiful women they're 753 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: supporting these men who have the usually become pen pals 754 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: with them, right, and then they why, I don't know, 755 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: people like to look danger in the eye. It's uh, 756 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: I don't have an answer for it. It is. It 757 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: is a bizarre, bizarre phenomenon. You know, there are you know, 758 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: you should distinguish those between women who believe in the 759 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: innocence of somebody who's on You know, do you think 760 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: people actually believe that Ted Bundy was innocent? No, I don't, 761 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: but I'm just you know, uh, but he was handsome, 762 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: according to Lea. Want to make sure people don't confuse 763 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: it with Damian Echols and his situation because Lori Davis 764 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: was an incredible person. When I said before that you know, 765 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't just the Elms that got him out of prison. 766 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: It's somebody like Lorie, which is a fascinating story. I mean, 767 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 1: Paradise Lost was planning was having Paradise Lost in nineties 768 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: six premiered at Sundance. Uh so that yeah, so it 769 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: was right, and you know, people were just obsessed with 770 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: that film. The Q and A s were like insane. 771 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: Everyone's stay, you know, you know, it's a film that 772 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: has people's attentions when literally everyone stays for the Q 773 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: and A. So it was that kind of a premiere 774 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: at Sundance, and then the second set of screenings was 775 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: there used to be a festival, maybe they still have it, 776 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,280 Speaker 1: but I can't remember. But it's called New Directors, New Films, 777 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: which was a joint festival between Museum of Modern Art 778 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: and the Film Society of Lincoln Center jointly presented New Directors, 779 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: New Films, and so Paradise Lost had a big screening 780 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: at Alice tully hall Um four or maybe it was 781 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: a Museum of Modern Art. I forget, but uh, there 782 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,600 Speaker 1: was a big screening and at the end of the screening, 783 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: everybody he stayed. It was a packed house. Everybody stayed. 784 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: People follow follow us out because they don't want the 785 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,479 Speaker 1: Q and A to end. And there was one woman 786 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: who kept asking me questions and you know, literally following 787 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: me down to the you know, people are falling back, 788 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: drifting away, but this one woman continued walking with us, 789 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,919 Speaker 1: and I did have to go. So I said, here's 790 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: my number, call me ill. I can tell you more, 791 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: but I have to go, and she followed up, she 792 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: called me. It turns out to be this woman Laurie Davis, 793 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: who literally, by watching the film just became so fixated 794 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: with the injustice that was being presented on the screen 795 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: that she started corresponding with Damien Um. They fell in love. 796 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: She went down to visit him. They She then gave 797 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 1: up her life in New York, moved to Arkansas and 798 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: became his biggest advocate and eventually got him out of 799 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: prison along with you know, obvious she was the most 800 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: she was, you know, a key person and getting him 801 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,480 Speaker 1: out of prison. The films obviously helped because the film's 802 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 1: cattle eyes people like her Um and they're still together, 803 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: married and out of prison. And you know, so I, 804 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: you know, I just wanted to make sure people weren't 805 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,399 Speaker 1: The reason I was, you know, saying what I said 806 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: is I don't want her lumped into the people who 807 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: like fall in love with criminals. And you know, no, 808 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: I was mainly thinking, like Robert Durst, Ted Bundy, like, yeah, 809 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: that is inexplicable to me. You know, but you know, 810 00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 1: how is it that people think that, you know, Biden 811 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 1: lost the election, so, you know, people a wacky things 812 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: in this world. You know. It's it's also weird that 813 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: people who don't commit the crimes, we'll say that they 814 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 1: are the murderer. Yeah, what is the logic behind that? 815 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: That also has never made sense to me. Is that 816 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: wanting fame? Yeah, people want attention, you know, I mean 817 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: we Yeah, me too. I just post a bikini photo 818 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram like normal people. Yeah me too. I know 819 00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: I like it, But then you always deleted after because 820 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:05,320 Speaker 1: something like that was because then the guy finally text 821 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: me back, and I feel comfortable baking it down. But 822 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: you know, it's just a cry for help, Joe. I'm 823 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,959 Speaker 1: sure this is the most scattered interview you've ever had. 824 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: We have a million questions for you, you know. I 825 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: also thought it was interesting not to go back to 826 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: um the story in Oklahoma. But it's interesting that there 827 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 1: were so many errors with him on death row and 828 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: you're saying that he's innocent, and you also said that 829 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: there are no mistakes and everything happens for a reason. 830 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: So it seems as if maybe it's like the universe 831 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: is conspiring to help this man get off death row. 832 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: Could be I mean, look, I don't think everything happens 833 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: for a reason. I think in the arc of one's career, 834 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: or you know, how you choose to look at things, 835 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: you know, looking back now, I think things in my 836 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,440 Speaker 1: life happened for a reason, and I'm happy the way 837 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: they But certainly there's a ton of injustice out there 838 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen for well, it does happen for a reason, 839 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,839 Speaker 1: you know, misguided policies, corrupt politicians, you know. Um, but 840 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: Richard Glass of situation is quite dire. So I, you know, 841 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: anyone who cares about justice should look into that, look 842 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: in at that. Have you been following the Galane Maxwell 843 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:22,080 Speaker 1: case at all? I have, you know, uh, since you know, 844 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,080 Speaker 1: we made a show about Jeffrey Epstein for Netflix called 845 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: Filthy rich Oh you did that show too. It was 846 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: an executive producer and I wasn't the director all of that. 847 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:42,399 Speaker 1: He did only best friends. Yeah, question, but I felt 848 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 1: like it was a fine question. Joe, Joe felt fine 849 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: about it. Dmitri's jealous, that's all that's happening. So, in 850 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: your opinion, do you think there's going to be a 851 00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:00,839 Speaker 1: mistrial with glene Um. It's certainly troubling, but I think 852 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: they're just putting everything on the record for an appeal. 853 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,040 Speaker 1: I think it would be highly unusual for there to 854 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: be a mistrial. I think it's in the realm of possibility, 855 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,919 Speaker 1: but I think it's low. I think they're just kind 856 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: of you know, they need to do this and posture 857 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: for an appeal. Um. Do I think it's potentially reversible 858 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: on appeal. I think that's the bigger fear. I don't think. 859 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,600 Speaker 1: I think the chance of a mistrial is low, but 860 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: I think the chance of reversal on appeal because of 861 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 1: this and how it unfolded, I think there is a 862 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,439 Speaker 1: there is a decent chance of that. Have you ever 863 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,200 Speaker 1: met her? I have not. Do you think she um 864 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: cooperates and releases some names at some point? Um? Hard 865 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: to say, you know, hard to say. I think if 866 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: I think if that were you know, I think if 867 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 1: she was inclined to do that, um, it would have 868 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: happened already. Yeah. I don't think she's going to either. 869 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: I don't think so either. I think she wants to survive. 870 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,879 Speaker 1: So we'll see. You know, Joe, I know we don't 871 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: have that much more time with you, So let's bring 872 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 1: it back to crime scene, which I'm still blown away 873 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: by Richard Cottingham talking about the fact that he had 874 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: over eighty perfect murders. He could be exaggerating by the way. 875 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he definitely had more than he's been charged with, 876 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,440 Speaker 1: and there is an ongoing task force, UM that is 877 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: seeking to identify more victims. Um. You know, could be 878 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,319 Speaker 1: an exaggeration, you know, but it certainly is enough that 879 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 1: it should be deeply disturbing that he was allowed to 880 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: kill with impunity for so many years. Do you think 881 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: that there's a part of him that wanted to get caught? 882 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,440 Speaker 1: You know, that is a good question, and with some yes, 883 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: you know, Dahmer's activities escalate it and escalated, and uh, 884 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: he became sloppier and sloppier, and many experts believe that, 885 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, it was a cry for help. But cutting 886 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,360 Speaker 1: him was so cold and calculating and had such a 887 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,800 Speaker 1: double life that I actually don't think he wanted to 888 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,440 Speaker 1: get caught. I mean, that's just pure speculation. But um, 889 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: I don't think so, but often they do. I Mean, 890 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 1: it's so wild, just just him walking around Times Square 891 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:32,239 Speaker 1: with women's severed heads and hands and bags, saying that 892 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: he's going to go grab a bite, and the cops 893 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: never stopping him. I mean, the amount, but I can't 894 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,919 Speaker 1: even fathom what type of person you have to be 895 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: do anything close to that. I mean, it's boggling my 896 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,799 Speaker 1: mind just thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, and that bad thing. 897 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,200 Speaker 1: You know, I debated putting it in the show because 898 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 1: it's so gruesome, but you know, to me, it's it 899 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 1: was a symbol for the disregard and you know how 900 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,760 Speaker 1: easily he could have been caught. And also the era, 901 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, police departments didn't communicate with each other. Forensic 902 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,080 Speaker 1: you know, pathology and evidence was not what it is today. 903 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 1: DNA technology didn't exist. Um, and here you have serial 904 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: killings right across the river in New Jersey and serial 905 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: killings in New York, and nobody's connecting the dots. And 906 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's a very different era. It's why that 907 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,440 Speaker 1: particular period, you know, was so you know, we we 908 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: perversely call it the Golden Age of serial killers because 909 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,360 Speaker 1: from like nineteen sixty nine with Charles Manson too, you 910 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: know Dahmer who was convicted in the nineties, you know, 911 00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,240 Speaker 1: there was you know that there was just a significant 912 00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,839 Speaker 1: number of killers who just weren't caught and or took 913 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 1: took too long a time to be caught. Um. And 914 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 1: in this particular case, there was such indifference by the 915 00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 1: police that you know, like you know, it's time square 916 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 1: or like whatever, you know, which I just find so troubling. 917 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: And I know we're out of time, but I have 918 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: one last question. Have you ever come across a killer 919 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:18,960 Speaker 1: or a serial killer who didn't have a troubling childhood? Um? Well, interestingly, 920 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,520 Speaker 1: Cottingham claims that his childhood was normal, you know, and 921 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to have that much of a troubling childhood, 922 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: which is interesting, which is why I think he You know, 923 00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,680 Speaker 1: there are a lot of reasons why he is uniquely 924 00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: disturbing to me. But generally speaking, Um, you know, Sam 925 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:50,960 Speaker 1: little was his mother tried to abort him, right, I 926 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,560 Speaker 1: mean literally same you know, get a grip, dude. You 927 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,319 Speaker 1: know his father was, I tried to put crews in 928 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: the trunk. I don't think he heard that part of 929 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:07,440 Speaker 1: the story context. No, I mean, dam Dahmer's childhood was 930 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: actually pretty good, except his parents fought a lot. But 931 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: my parents fought a lot too, So, um, he wasn't 932 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: really abused. And you know, Bundy claims that he had 933 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 1: the perfect childhood, but you know, people have said otherwise. 934 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: But Robert durs had a really disturbing childhood. So you 935 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,839 Speaker 1: don't think it's like a nature versus nurture. It's it's 936 00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,839 Speaker 1: just you. You are you aren't I think? So. Look, 937 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,319 Speaker 1: I mean honestly, I had a rough childhood, you know, 938 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,120 Speaker 1: not to get too deep into it, especially since it's 939 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,120 Speaker 1: the last question. Well I have one more after this, 940 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,360 Speaker 1: so go, so go for it. I mean, honestly, I 941 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 1: had a tough childhood, you know. And oh my five 942 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,359 Speaker 1: thirty lights pop. Your hair looks magnificent. It's glowing now 943 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: on the time. I'm sorry, But look, I had a 944 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 1: tough childhood. And you know I've I've looked into the 945 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,600 Speaker 1: dark side filmically to exercise my demons, you know. So 946 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't think. I think you 947 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: are born that way, you know, and and certain you 948 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:19,120 Speaker 1: know environmental issues can trigger it. But look, I think 949 00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,920 Speaker 1: bad parenting was has all sorts of horrible consequences. You know. 950 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 1: Not you know, not everyone becomes a serial killer, but 951 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:33,880 Speaker 1: bad parenting has horrible, horrible consequences for people. Um, but 952 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: I don't think, I mean, I agree with that. I 953 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 1: turned into a comedian. That's one of the worst things 954 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,960 Speaker 1: a parent can do to a kid, you know. Um, 955 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 1: but I lost my train of thought because and this 956 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,560 Speaker 1: is and this is exactly bad parents that you know, 957 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,240 Speaker 1: bad parenting does result in a lot of bad things, 958 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, um that we spend our lives working our 959 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,680 Speaker 1: way through. But I don't think bad parenting produces a 960 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,480 Speaker 1: serial killer. I think that is just you know, whether 961 00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:11,600 Speaker 1: that is just some deeply inexplicable dark side of the 962 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:14,839 Speaker 1: human condition that I don't think you can blame on 963 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: bad parenting skills. You know, I would think bad parenting 964 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: can can result to disregard for other people's feelings or consequence. 965 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,839 Speaker 1: But I think that's I agree, there's a whole other 966 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,879 Speaker 1: leap to do something like that, and I think there's 967 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,960 Speaker 1: got to be more to it than just and the 968 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 1: and it's you know, there's different reasons, you know, dahm Er, 969 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, he sought companionship, like he just wanted to 970 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,600 Speaker 1: lay with people and have them not leave him. And 971 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,960 Speaker 1: that was his psychological profile for why he did what 972 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 1: he did, like he you know, he you know, obviously 973 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,160 Speaker 1: what he did was brutal, and I'm not defending it 974 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,960 Speaker 1: in any way, but you know, of all the serial killers, 975 00:56:56,040 --> 00:57:00,279 Speaker 1: you know he had, you know, these reasons that were 976 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,360 Speaker 1: born out of just a deep loneliness, whereas somebody like 977 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:11,360 Speaker 1: Richard Cottingham, you know, was wanted to enjoyed giving pain 978 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,880 Speaker 1: to people. You know, Dahmer would slip his victims sleeping 979 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,960 Speaker 1: pill um and wait till they were totally asleep and 980 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,600 Speaker 1: unconscious before he you know, killed them and did terrible 981 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,920 Speaker 1: things to them. Again, there's no justification for any of 982 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: this behavior. But different, different serial killers have different motivations. 983 00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:37,440 Speaker 1: And Cottingham just enjoyed the pure torture and control of women, um, 984 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,120 Speaker 1: as did Bundy, you know. So different serial killers have 985 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,040 Speaker 1: different reasons for why they do what they do. So 986 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 1: it's hard, it's hard to generalize, you know, cutting him 987 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,240 Speaker 1: gave women sedatives to right, he did, yes, But but 988 00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:54,320 Speaker 1: when they awakened, they participated it in the torture. Right. 989 00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,200 Speaker 1: Oh god, Well, anyone who hasn't seen it yet, we 990 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: didn't give away all the details. Trust me, you need 991 00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: to go watch it. It is binge worthy. It will 992 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: happen whether you want to or not. You won't be 993 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,640 Speaker 1: able to stop yourself. That's what happened to me. Thank you, Joe, 994 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: And just another night glued to my television. My husband 995 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,640 Speaker 1: gets home from work and I'm like, he's like, you 996 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: have problems. I'm like, it's work, honey, it's work. It's 997 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,440 Speaker 1: a good thing. It's only three episodes. It's easy to finish. 998 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,280 Speaker 1: I was upset, honestly, I was like, what do you 999 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,080 Speaker 1: mean it's over? But also before we let you go, 1000 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,240 Speaker 1: I've got to just quick quick questions. One is, what 1001 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,240 Speaker 1: do you really think happened at the Cecil Hotel to 1002 00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: Elisa Lamb? And why is it that she got lost 1003 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,000 Speaker 1: in the elevator game? I can get out with you, 1004 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,320 Speaker 1: We'll never get down with Elsa Lamb. I think it was, 1005 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 1: as the show strongly suggests, it was a sad, tragic accident. 1006 00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,480 Speaker 1: I know that's I know that's unsatisfying, but that's not 1007 00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,880 Speaker 1: as fun Joe. Okay, but so so mine was like, 1008 00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna ask something else that I can get right, 1009 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,000 Speaker 1: just to get the answer. I know. Okay, So, Joe, 1010 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,480 Speaker 1: before we wrap up with you for today, you know, 1011 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,560 Speaker 1: we've been so honored to have such a genius mind 1012 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: discuss true crime with us and many other aspects of life. 1013 00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: And I'm personally very happy that you came on today. 1014 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,800 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to this for a while. I'm 1015 00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: so glad you're here. I just wanted to see if 1016 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,840 Speaker 1: you had any final thoughts or anything that you wanted 1017 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,400 Speaker 1: to let people know. UM, any project that you have 1018 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 1: coming out, that you're excited about, anything that's next for 1019 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 1: you on the horizon, just anything at all. I would 1020 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 1: love for you to give us your final thoughts. Well, 1021 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 1: first of all, it's been quite a thrill to be 1022 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,680 Speaker 1: on the show. We've known each other for a long time, 1023 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 1: so it's really I'm really glad to do this. UM. 1024 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,160 Speaker 1: I think you guys asked great questions, so I think 1025 00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: I kind of said everything there is to say about 1026 00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: about the Cecil Hotel and no, and you know, I 1027 01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: generally don't talk about stuff that's coming up, in part 1028 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,560 Speaker 1: because the networks say you can't talk about it until. 1029 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 1: But luckily the thing I'm about to start has already 1030 01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,680 Speaker 1: been announced, which is unusual that we've announced it. But 1031 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm doing the definitive Bernie made Off story. We gotta 1032 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:26,080 Speaker 1: have you back on the podcasting a four parties know, 1033 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,840 Speaker 1: did you know anything? You'll have to wait and say now, Joe, 1034 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,320 Speaker 1: we need info when you come back to talk about that. 1035 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,440 Speaker 1: We promised no Cecil hotel. We're We're in a cool 1036 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,120 Speaker 1: way and I'm very excited about it. So that's I'm 1037 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 1: actually in prep now. When we start shooting in a 1038 01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,240 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. You need an insider info. I know nothing, 1039 01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,560 Speaker 1: but I'll pretend. I mean, we need a group text show. 1040 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,840 Speaker 1: We need a group text And is there anything that, um, 1041 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, any other projects maybe that are not documentaries 1042 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,160 Speaker 1: or anything else that you wanted to speak on. I 1043 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: have a couple of scripted things, you know. I enjoy 1044 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,840 Speaker 1: finally being at a place where, you know, I can 1045 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,880 Speaker 1: move between both worlds and occasionally do a scripted project 1046 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,240 Speaker 1: in between the documentaries. Although the documentary stuff is you know, 1047 01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,280 Speaker 1: is where my heart is and you know you know so. 1048 01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,760 Speaker 1: But I got a scripted thing coming down the bike, 1049 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,040 Speaker 1: but I can't say what. Everything's coming in Hot for Joe, 1050 01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:27,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh super hot. I mean, Joe, you're super multitalented. 1051 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,520 Speaker 1: I'm excited to watch and support anything you create with 1052 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,320 Speaker 1: that brain of yours and Dmitri Teddy, any final thoughts 1053 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:37,960 Speaker 1: for Joe. No, we're just so grateful that you're here. 1054 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,880 Speaker 1: You showed up for us and gave us all the juice, 1055 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,240 Speaker 1: and now I'm going to really wait with like, I 1056 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: need to know everything about Bernie made off, no idea. 1057 01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:53,240 Speaker 1: You have got lots of new info that hasn't been 1058 01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,720 Speaker 1: shared before, so it's going to be a good one. 1059 01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,600 Speaker 1: And no and no serial killers. You know, I need 1060 01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,440 Speaker 1: a little right from the serial killer thing. Money scandal 1061 01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:07,920 Speaker 1: is just as good to me as killing so hot. Also, 1062 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,920 Speaker 1: do I have a problem, like why am I obsessed 1063 01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:17,000 Speaker 1: with killers and money scandal? What does that mean about? 1064 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Don't I don't know if you noticed, but true crime 1065 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: seems to be very popular these days. Why do you guys? 1066 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,760 Speaker 1: Through crime is so popular because it's an escape from 1067 01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,160 Speaker 1: my own life and I've been doing that. I've been 1068 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,120 Speaker 1: doing the same thing for thirty years, and now all 1069 01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,520 Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's like, you know, very popular. So 1070 01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm just curious. And documentaries have never been more popular. 1071 01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,080 Speaker 1: Look when I started in this business, you know, when 1072 01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,360 Speaker 1: we shot Brothers Keeper in nineteen nineties, when we first 1073 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,480 Speaker 1: started shooting it, Uh god, I was like twenty seven 1074 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,720 Speaker 1: years old. I can't believe it. Um something like that. 1075 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,400 Speaker 1: But if you didn't sell your documentary to PBS or HBO, 1076 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,800 Speaker 1: you weren't making a documentary. There was no such thing 1077 01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,520 Speaker 1: as doc series. Uh, you know, we ended up self 1078 01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: just even though it went to Sundance and won a prize, 1079 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,000 Speaker 1: as nobody wanted to distribute Brothers Keeper, so we ended 1080 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,800 Speaker 1: up doing it ourselves, Like we had a handful of 1081 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,760 Speaker 1: millimeter released prints and went from theater to theater, you know, 1082 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:15,000 Speaker 1: doing it ourselves. And you know, if four hundred people 1083 01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,560 Speaker 1: saw our movie on a weekend, Bruce Snovsky and I 1084 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,560 Speaker 1: would high five each other, like, oh my god, we 1085 01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,880 Speaker 1: died and went to heaven. Four hundred people saw a movie, 1086 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,720 Speaker 1: and today something pops on Netflix and you know, twenty 1087 01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,080 Speaker 1: million people see it in the first couple of weeks. 1088 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,240 Speaker 1: It's like insane. Well, I know, I know we have 1089 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,400 Speaker 1: to go, but what project are you most proud of? 1090 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,280 Speaker 1: I would have to say, Well, I guess I have 1091 01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,920 Speaker 1: to say Paradise Lost. I mean, all documentarians dream of 1092 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:44,080 Speaker 1: having some kind of impact on their subjects, um to 1093 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:48,000 Speaker 1: tangibly actually have participated in helping to get somebody out 1094 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,360 Speaker 1: of prison, three people out of prison, one on death row. 1095 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: You know, that's that doesn't happen very often. So I 1096 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,760 Speaker 1: feel great about that. And we were. You know, all 1097 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,000 Speaker 1: the when we went down to make Paradise Lost, we 1098 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,280 Speaker 1: thought we were making a you know, a kid's killing 1099 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 1: kids film. That's what HBO assigned us to do. All 1100 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:06,400 Speaker 1: the press was these guys are are killers, and so 1101 01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,439 Speaker 1: we went down expecting to be making a kid's killing 1102 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,800 Speaker 1: kids film, and all the press, all the local press 1103 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:15,280 Speaker 1: down there. It's a very different world, no internet whatever. 1104 01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:19,680 Speaker 1: So local press actually was very important, you know, in 1105 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:23,680 Speaker 1: a market, to influence people's opinion. And the local press 1106 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,520 Speaker 1: was utterly convinced of their guilt and helped feed and 1107 01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:31,240 Speaker 1: pollute the jurors, the jurors with that false narrative. And 1108 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,640 Speaker 1: we were the only ones who said, hey, something's not 1109 01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:35,360 Speaker 1: right here, you know. So I think I'm proud that 1110 01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: we had we didn't. You know. I remember calling up HBO, 1111 01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:42,960 Speaker 1: the executive sheil and Evans, who assigned the film to us, UM, 1112 01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:44,840 Speaker 1: because she just sent an art of Ay, these two 1113 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,760 Speaker 1: kids had just been arrested for these devil worshiping murders. 1114 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,080 Speaker 1: Go look, go look into it. And so, you know, 1115 01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,360 Speaker 1: we had no reason to not think they were not guilty. 1116 01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:59,320 Speaker 1: There's no reason to think they weren't guilty. Um and 1117 01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,720 Speaker 1: about too, probably about two or three months into it, 1118 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:08,080 Speaker 1: you know. I actually I was interviewing Jason Baldwin, one 1119 01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,120 Speaker 1: of the West Memphish three, and I was looking at 1120 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,440 Speaker 1: his tiny little wrists during the interview, and he was 1121 01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 1: declaring his innocence, and I was thinking about how small 1122 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,600 Speaker 1: his risks are and trying to imagine him holding a 1123 01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:22,440 Speaker 1: ten inch errated hunting knife, which is what the prosecution 1124 01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,720 Speaker 1: was alleging, and that he had castrated this eight year 1125 01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,400 Speaker 1: old boy and done all these terrible knife wounds. And 1126 01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,040 Speaker 1: I just had this epiphany that something's not right here. 1127 01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,560 Speaker 1: I don't think this guy is guilty. And I remember 1128 01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,840 Speaker 1: calling up the executive at HBO, Sheil and Evans, who 1129 01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,400 Speaker 1: is well known in our business, half expecting her to 1130 01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:46,960 Speaker 1: tell us to come home, because I was telling her, no, 1131 01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,240 Speaker 1: this is not a kid's killing kids film. I think 1132 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:52,560 Speaker 1: they got the wrong people. And this is six months 1133 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,600 Speaker 1: before the trial. Um, and I you know, I half 1134 01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,720 Speaker 1: expected her to cancel the film, you know, and she said, no, no, 1135 01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:00,840 Speaker 1: stick with it. Then that sound is more interesting. So 1136 01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,360 Speaker 1: I guess I'm proud of that film. To answer your question, 1137 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,960 Speaker 1: because with all the media hype and our mission to 1138 01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: tell that same story. We have some clarity and realize 1139 01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,160 Speaker 1: these guys, you know, before the trial, uh, we thought 1140 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:20,840 Speaker 1: these guys were probably innocent. Yeah, So you're the coolest. 1141 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:24,720 Speaker 1: I thank you so much. Yeah. And and right before 1142 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,240 Speaker 1: you came on, I gave your CVS received long list 1143 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,440 Speaker 1: of credits to everyone. So do your homework. People, go 1144 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,480 Speaker 1: on IMDb hunt down Joe. Watch all of his films. 1145 01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:42,320 Speaker 1: They're so impactful and special and important. And if you 1146 01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,920 Speaker 1: haven't already been watched Crime Scene, the Times Square Killer, 1147 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,360 Speaker 1: it's on Netflix right now. It's trending. We all already 1148 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,080 Speaker 1: watched it, we all already loved it, and you heard 1149 01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,120 Speaker 1: us talk a little bit about it today, but you 1150 01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,080 Speaker 1: should watch it to get into the nitty gritty and 1151 01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,440 Speaker 1: find out all the details on the case. Joe, it 1152 01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,600 Speaker 1: has been an honor, a pleasure of delight. Thank you 1153 01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:06,000 Speaker 1: so much for coming on to Real Time Crime today 1154 01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,320 Speaker 1: with us. Thank you for having me and happy to 1155 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,400 Speaker 1: come back anytime. Well, thank you what you wish for. Yes, 1156 01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,920 Speaker 1: thank you. I'm gonna go watch everything else that I 1157 01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,040 Speaker 1: haven't seen on your resume, and hopefully about that time 1158 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,560 Speaker 1: the Bernie Maid off stories out. We love you. Reliah 1159 01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,720 Speaker 1: should have been my agents. And where can people find 1160 01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:26,360 Speaker 1: you on the internet. Joe Berlinger Films. That's your Instagram. Yes, 1161 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,080 Speaker 1: I don't do Facebook, you never have and I'm glad um. 1162 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,680 Speaker 1: But Instagram is Joe Browning Films or Twitter. It is 1163 01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,520 Speaker 1: just at Joe Browning. So now I'm going to slide 1164 01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:38,240 Speaker 1: into your d m s about all the murders, so 1165 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,880 Speaker 1: just ignore it if you don't want to hear from me. 1166 01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:45,080 Speaker 1: All I'm not going to do a story about your 1167 01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:49,680 Speaker 1: Fannie pack missing. That's a story for another day. Fine, fine, 1168 01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,440 Speaker 1: all right, thank you so much. I love you, Joe. 1169 01:07:52,560 --> 01:08:09,280 Speaker 1: Thank you. Bye h wow. Okay, so not to brag, 1170 01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:11,400 Speaker 1: but this was my favorite episode of Real time crime 1171 01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,920 Speaker 1: so far thanks to Joe Burlinger. Love him. Even though 1172 01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,800 Speaker 1: he asked you for lunch and not me, I mean, sorry, Teddy, 1173 01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:23,720 Speaker 1: but I think he was. I mean, obviously he was 1174 01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,320 Speaker 1: like I if I go to lunch with Leah, I'm 1175 01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,720 Speaker 1: hoping he's gonna bring something she's gonna bring sometimes. And Teddy, well, 1176 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,280 Speaker 1: he did hear that I had a troubled childhood, so 1177 01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,360 Speaker 1: he's interested to pick my brain and see if I 1178 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,439 Speaker 1: am that subject of this documentary. We all had troubled 1179 01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:46,479 Speaker 1: childhoods there right now, Leah, that's why we're obsessed. I know. Okay, well, 1180 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: this has been an incredible episode of real time crime. 1181 01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,240 Speaker 1: Sorry we didn't get to all the hot topics today, 1182 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:52,880 Speaker 1: you guys, but I think we can all agree this 1183 01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,320 Speaker 1: episode worked out way better this way. God, I love 1184 01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:57,960 Speaker 1: talking to Joe. We could have interviewed him for like 1185 01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,559 Speaker 1: nine hour straight. The has been another episode of real 1186 01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:06,240 Speaker 1: time crime. I've been Lea Lamar and Teddy Meling cap 1187 01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:10,120 Speaker 1: I paused always, I always, there's never not a pause 1188 01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,760 Speaker 1: and sometimes Dmitri and guys, if you've got any sort 1189 01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,639 Speaker 1: of question, comment, concerned case you think we should look 1190 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,760 Speaker 1: into or thoughts, give us a call, leave us a 1191 01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:25,360 Speaker 1: voicemail at eight six six one crime that's eight six 1192 01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:29,439 Speaker 1: six two one two seven four six three, eight six 1193 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:33,080 Speaker 1: six twenty one camp eight six six to any one 1194 01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:35,960 Speaker 1: crime that's eight six six two one two seven four 1195 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,439 Speaker 1: or six three. We promise we will actually get to 1196 01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:43,160 Speaker 1: one of the voicemails next episode. Okay, love you guys. 1197 01:09:45,240 --> 01:09:52,200 Speaker 1: It's real time Crome, real time, I mean, is it 1198 01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:56,160 Speaker 1: actually real time? Just the thing we say, the thing 1199 01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:58,840 Speaker 1: we say? Got it? Okay, see you next week for 1200 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,719 Speaker 1: more real time only on I Heart Radio,