WEBVTT - Vaccines (with Dr. Peter Hotez & Heather Simpson) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:10.000 Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact a 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.239 podcast about why public health matters even when we're not 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.079 in a pandemic. Today we're talking about vaccines, well more 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.560 specifically about the toll the anti vaccine movement has taken 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.840 on our public health. Let's start with some basics. Vaccines 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.640 are one of the most successful public health interventions in 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:31.680 human history. They've saved millions, if not billions, of lives. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.000 They've protected generations of children in the US and around 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.320 the world from deadly diseases. And right now, the surest 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.240 path out of the COVID nineteen pandemic is to vaccinate 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.800 as many people in as many places as possible. But that, 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.959 of course requires wide scale public trust and participation, two 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.960 things that the anti vaccine movement has been working really 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.360 hard to undermine. The anti vax movement has been growing 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.160 in darkness for decades, and now they've captured this hot 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.880 light as they weaponized fear and uncertainty, dis doubt, and 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.560 spread lies about the COVID nineteen vaccines. Their efforts have 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.560 been amplified by public figures who use their platforms to 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.360 elevate debunked conspiracy theories, and all of this has made 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.200 much much worse by lack of accountability from social media 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.240 and technology platforms themselves. The anti VACS movement is hurting 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.640 our ability to recover from this pandemic, and it could 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.360 affect which vaccines this generation of kids received well beyond 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.400 COVID nineteen. So what can we do? How do we 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.520 fight the powerful tide of disinformation that began long before 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:40.600 this pandemic and has unfortunately gained momentum during it. How 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.399 do we overcome mistrust around vaccines and help more people 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.360 get the facts that they need to make the right 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:49.760 health decisions for themselves and their families. Well, to answer 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.440 those questions, I'm talking with two people who are confronting 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.560 these challenges head on. Later, we're here from my friend 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.800 Dr Peter Hotez, a vaccine researcher and advocate and co 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.200 director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.040 But first I'm talking with Heather Simpson, a mom who 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.680 fell down the anti vax rabbit hole and then pulled 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.880 herself back out. Hey, there's an activist, a freelance writer, 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.799 and a mom to three year old daughter. Hers is 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.359 a story of how effectively the anti vax movement and 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.920 traps people, and a reminder that it's possible, if not 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.800 always easy, to change minds. I started our conversation by 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:28.120 asking Heather how she went from someone who had always 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:38.520 gotten vaccinated then anti vax social media influencer. My mom 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.480 vaccinated all of us. It wasn't until I was eighteen 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:44.760 that I had the choice to get my meningitis shot, 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:49.240 and I hate needles, so on that alone, chose not 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:53.080 to get it going into college, which was stupid. I 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.880 did get the t DAP in two thousand fifteen. I 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.040 got the flu shot for school. It wasn't until me 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:01.720 and my husband really started trying to have our daughter 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:06.320 that we were like, should we do the schedule? I mean, 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:10.079 we haven't given it much thought. And a documentary series 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.440 popped up I think on Facebook as an ad, and 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.600 it was nine hours of just pure propaganda. It was 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:22.240 doctor after doctor blaming everything under the sun on vaccines. 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.920 So by the time you're done watching all nine hours 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.800 of terror, you are not going to want to injectricate. 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.400 I mean I was terrified. I was thinking, if we 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.440 inject Charlotte, she will die in her sleep that night. 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.480 The strength of the fear that I had was so 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.600 so strong. I was ashamed a little bit, a little 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.160 bit embarrassed about it because my mom groups were so 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.440 pro vaccine, so I didn't really tell anybody. But when 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:52.960 she was about eighteen months old, I decided to start 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.000 talking about it casually on the internet on Facebook, and 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.920 it just took off. And I didn't realize that they're 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:04.320 worth thousands and thousands of anti vas moms on Facebook 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:07.640 that had all found each other, and that there's this huge, huge, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.800 growing community and they just accepted me as one of them, 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.440 and it just took off from there. How did that 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:18.039 make you feel when you were accepted by the anti 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.960 vaccine mom groups. I was living in West Texas in 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.799 the oil Field area, and my husband was at work 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.480 all the time, and so I was caring for a 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.240 child on oxygen at the time. She's okay now, and 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.800 I was just desperate for a community. So it was 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:39.040 just the perfect timing to have this community crowd around 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.960 me and take me in. I can see how anybody 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.880 would fall prey to that community, and they are really 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:49.800 good people. It's hard to see them for what they're doing, 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.120 which is pushing anti vax propaganda. I saw them as 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:59.080 my friends and to without the Facebook algorithm recommending that 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:05.520 first long look into vaccine conspiracies and anti vaccine propaganda, 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.240 do you think you ever would have found it? No, 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.400 I don't think so. I think we would have probably 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:17.280 vaccinated our child. So now fast forward a few years, 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.680 your daughters a few years old. What then changed? Why 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:25.720 did you then decide to start vaccinating your daughter? Around 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:30.080 this time last year, I had to have surgery for endometriosis, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.000 and I reached out to my community and they basically 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.840 were saying, well, you're taking the lazy way out, and 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.440 you just need to eat better and the endometrioss would 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.640 go away. And I just felt so much shame and guilt, 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.000 and I went to my doctor and she said, no, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.640 you need the surgery, and I just burst into tears. 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.480 And I realized that moment that the anti vacs world 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:54.920 thinks they can play God in a way like if 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.880 you eat healthy enough, and if you don't vaccinate, and 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.760 if you take all the right supplements, you will never 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.839 encounter an illness. That kind of started tilting me towards 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.920 Western medicine. And I started to speak out and I said, hey, 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.159 nobody is forcing your kids to go to public school 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:16.600 don't public schools have the right to mandate vaccines if 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.080 you're not being forced to go. And it's really hard 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:23.880 to say that one vaccine hasn't saved at least one life. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:26.600 I think that would be impossible to say that. And 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.280 because I had said even that that one vaccine saved 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.800 one life, I was ousted by the community. There was 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:39.120 no room for doubt or questioning or the middle ground. 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.200 It's a cult. It's a cult. I was ousted. I 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.120 ended up in the ear with a panic attack because 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.160 I had hundreds of people in that group just shaming 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:52.320 me and attacking me, and I was horrified. And then 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.960 COVID hit and I realized all of them are also 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.160 anti maskers, and they also deny that COVID is real. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.560 And then I started to realize, oh my gosh, these 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.799 people are real conspiracy theories. And I just was like WHOA. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.239 And I just took a step back, and I started 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.960 reading books with actual science, like by Dr Paul Offit 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.440 and finding the scientific facts that I can't get around. 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.640 Before you left or were expelled from the anti vaccine 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.480 mom groups, what were those early conversations around COVID, Like 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:31.640 basically that somebody owned the patent to the virus years ago. 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:35.160 I don't know who it was, somebody big, maybe Bill Gates, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.040 and that this was planned to reduce the population. So 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.640 that was the global conspiracy, that this is a man 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.480 made virus used to kill off everybody and to gained 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:49.240 mind control of everybody through submission through masks. A lot 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.280 of these people were deeply into q and On. I'm 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.640 sure you've heard of q and on. Oh yes, my 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.040 mother is a prominent part of the que and On 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.320 narrative makes it sound like there's coherent's there. I don't 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.400 really think it's a narrative, but whatever the chaos of 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:08.080 it is. Yes, yeah, it's crazy. Another I think one 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.680 of the things that is concerning from a public health 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.680 standpoint is when you were talking earlier about how you know, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.240 when you were eighteen and you made one decision to 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.920 not get vaccinated because you were scared of needles. There 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.760 has to be space to talk to people about really 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:29.080 understandable questions and concerns like it's going to hurt, is 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.160 it really worth it? Or what do all these different 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.480 vaccines do? How do I think about them? Why do 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.000 some vaccinations really need to be administered very early in 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.520 someone's life, and some require boosters and some don't like 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:48.120 since you now have have really lived in the hardcore 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.160 like anti vax online world and now don't have to 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.840 separate out the space the compassion for questions that I 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.280 think are important for parents and people to feel like 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.040 they can ask, and then also try to help limit 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.760 the space for the questions that are just not rooted 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.040 in science, not rooted in reality, and are really intended 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.760 to find people like you who are vulnerable a few 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.840 years ago to bring them into the conspiracy. How do 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.600 you think we do that well? When I was introduced 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.920 to the fact that many of the studies that show 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:30.319 aluminum in the brain that antivactors like to post that 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.760 aluminium in the brain, if you read the fine print, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:37.040 is environmental aluminum. It's not the aluminum salts and vaccines 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.240 that blew my mind. And once I had those facts 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.320 that I couldn't argue myself out of, I held onto 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:46.959 those when I went to vaccinate my daughter. Those are 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.200 what did it for me. I mean, and I had 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.800 friends pouring into me and talking to me and just 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.760 empathizing with me, But it was those scientific facts that 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.040 I could not get around. And so I have a 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.040 spectrum of anti vaxtors. You have the vaccine hesitant who 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.320 maybe vaccinated their kids, but they're hesitant about the COVID vaccine. 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.240 And then you have the scared people, which is where 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.080 I was. And then you have the X factors, and 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.480 that's really the critical group because they feel that something 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.280 happened right after the child's vaccine. Maybe the child stopped 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.400 talking a few days later, but they weren't paying attention 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.600 to all of those signs leading up to it. And 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.440 if the doctor would sit down and notebook it out 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.079 about all the signs that they may have missed leading 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.000 up to that, and get genetic testing for maybe genetic 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.680 markers that show up for autism, and just walk that 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.679 mom through it to show her that it was not 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.720 the vaccine that would keep a pro vax er, but instead, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.199 if you shoot her out the door, she's gonna go home, 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.800 she's gonna google what happened to my kid, and she's 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.959 going to find this world of antivactors and join drinks. 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.560 And so it is about finding what happened quote unquote 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.400 to their child. Maybe nothing happened, but talking that mom 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.680 through it and getting her to the other side of it, 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.280 so that you keep her on the pro vaccination side. 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.840 A lot of this lies in the pediatrician's hands. And 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.280 you were mentioning how important your conversations with your doctor 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:19.920 were around your endometriosis diagnosis. Yes, Unfortunately, when I was 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.760 pregnant and I refused the te dat, my doctor looked 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:25.640 at me and said, oh, no, you're not one of 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:29.480 those crazy anti vactors, are you. That's not helpful, And 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:33.520 then he never explained the necessity of the vaccine. He 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.960 just brushed me off, and so did my pediatrician. I 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.679 tried to talk to her about my concerns. My trust 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.319 and doctors majorly fell when my daughter had sleep at 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.320 me up, but they wouldn't listen to me, and I 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.360 was begging them, saying, she's not sleeping normal, something is happening. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.480 We have an outlet monitor and it was going off 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.240 every night. Her oxygen was dropping in her sixties. I 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.840 was begging doctors for two months, please listen to me, 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.320 something's wrong, and they were saying, you're just as sweet, 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.280 new nervous mom, honey, just sleep, wake up every few hours, 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.680 see if she's purple, and go back to sleep. Good Lord, 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:08.680 that's what someone actually told you. Yeah, that's what they 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.560 actually told me. And so two months later, after begging 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.000 and begging, I finally got a sleep study and I 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.120 got in with the sleep doctor and she said, honey, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.440 your baby is fine. And she said, but you know 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.680 what it said, your new nervous mom. I will grant 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.040 you the sleep study just to calm you down. And 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.200 so we got to sleep study at two months old. 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.400 And moderate sleep at MIA is forty events per hour, 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:36.080 and she clocked in at one forty four. That's record breaking. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.600 She almost had a scientific study on her. And they 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.880 transferred her to I see you the next morning so 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.000 that she wouldn't die. So that was where my distrust 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:49.160 and doctors started. That's understandable, Wather, That's completely understandable. How 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.280 did you, then, though, find doctors who you could trust? 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.640 I realized that not all doctors are the same. So 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.600 when we moved to Dallas, I found people that listened 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.320 to us and took us seriously. And now she's with 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.320 a great heart doctor, a great pediatrician. She's with everyone 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.960 that she needs to be with, and we trust them wholeheartedly. 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:27.960 We'll be right back. Stay with us. What would you 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.480 like to see happen more of and maybe the training 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:37.360 of pediatricians and other people in medicine to be able 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.520 to have conversations with, you know, vaccine hesitant parents or 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.400 even parents who are further on that spectrum that you 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.959 talked about. You may be rejecting vaccines today, but also 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:51.760 really do want to make the best in the right 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.480 choices for their kids health. So those facts that I'm 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.959 holding onto, I'm working on a list of ten of them. 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.319 I think if pediatricians can be armed with those facts 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.960 that anti factors cannot are you or feel their way 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.040 out of. And that's even on a pamphlet or something 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.160 that would do so much good. If I had known 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.640 those facts when Charlotte was two months old, I probably 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.600 would have vaccinated her. That would have calmed all my concerns, 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.680 all my fears. And so I'm training doctors to be 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.400 armed with those facts. But also there's a story of 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.200 a little boy that had never had a seizure in 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.000 his life, and then he got a seizure right after 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.880 his shots, and so the mom took the little boy 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:34.960 in and the doctor said, there's no way it's from 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.720 the shots. So she took the little boy to the 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.560 ear and they said it's no way from the shot. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.760 So you have this mom who feels insane, she feels 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.120 gas lit, she feels crazy, and we know that febrile 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.920 seizures are possible from a shot and they're not dangerous. 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.600 But had the doctor said, hey, maybe it is, but 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.480 you know what, it's okay. Your baby is safe and 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.760 we will watch your baby on the next vaccine. I 0:14:57.760 --> 0:14:59.800 will hold your hand and I will be there and 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.280 we will be on guard and we can get through 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.880 this together. But your baby is okay. That would have 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.400 built that trust, that acknowledgement that hey, that sometimes does 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.640 happen and it's okay. But to gaslight a mom, she 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.240 just joined the ranks of the anti vaxxers. So teaching 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.560 doctors that anti vaxxer moms are just trying to save 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.360 their kids, they're not crazy. And if doctors can get 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.840 to the bottom by offering an explanation other than vaccines 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.360 about what they perceive happened, they will keep them as 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.200 a pro vax er. And I think that's the biggest 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:35.880 thing keep them from going home and googling their way 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.280 into the anti vax cult. Listen to what their concern 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.600 or concerns are and get to the bottom of it, 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.040 because they're going to go off the deep end if 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.040 you don't. I am curious though, if other parents, moms 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.200 you have reached out to you though over the last 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.160 year to say I'm having similar questions. I think maybe 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:58.360 I should vaccinate my kids. I just don't know what 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.920 advice do you have. Has that happened it has. We've 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.720 actually convinced a few parents to vaccinate. They needed to 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:12.800 see somebody that was so anti vacs turn because if 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.560 somebody was so anti vacts and they were able to turn, 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.880 there must be a good reason why they turned. I 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.160 can do this too, And so we have seen people 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.440 start to vaccinate their kids and get the COVID shot, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.560 which is really exciting because I truly believe the COVID 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.920 shot is the way to end the pandemic. I agree. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.080 Have you had any conversations with people who are not 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:41.480 vaccine hesitant or not anti vactor but are questioning this vaccine. Yes, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.040 And the main concern that I've found is how the 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:50.240 COVID vaccine relates to fertility. That is by far the 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:55.080 main concern that rumor has run rampant on Facebook. You know, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.800 I'm not even allowed to visit my friend who believes 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.880 that because I'm vaccine needed, I will rub off and 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.480 cause her to be infertile just by being next to 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:10.240 her because of the completely not rooted in fact theory 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.680 that the vaccine will shed that you have been vaccinated 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.800 and you can like shed the virus. It's like me 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.760 drinking coffee and my caffeine rubbing off on you. It's 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:22.199 just not going to happen, and that these people believe it. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.320 And so you have this whole group of people that 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:29.080 are starting to segregate away from society from the vaccinated people. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.320 They're breaking up with their husbands and their boyfriends because 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.880 their boyfriends are getting the vaccine and they will not 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.560 touch them. This is going to become huge. They don't 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.119 want to be around these people. It's it's about to 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.560 get really bad, in my opinion, and it's because these 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.040 Facebook groups are allowed to form, or people are saying, oh, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.479 I felt tired after the vaccine. Oh my mom had 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.359 a stroke twenty seven days later after the vaccine. Oh, well, 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.000 of course it was from the vaccine. They are allowed 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.760 to put every single thing. Oh I had a hiccup 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.800 for the vaccine. I've never hiccup before. Them must be 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.080 from the vaccine. Everything is being posted to these groups, 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.160 and these groups are being allowed to run crazy on Facebook, 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.199 and people are sharing them like crazy, So people that 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.480 were going to get the shot are suddenly not. And 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.080 it just there's no control over these groups, and it 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:21.560 is getting misinformation into every corner of Facebook and people 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:23.320 are reading it, and then they were going to get 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.680 the vaccine and now they're not. Is there anything else 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:28.800 that you'd like to share, any advice that you would 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.800 have for anyone listening to us about how to protect 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:38.120 themselves against misinformation to be able to make important health decisions, 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:42.200 including around vaccines and vaccinations for themselves and their kids. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.800 Just be so careful when you're on Facebook and you 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.840 read well, this happened right after my kid got a vaccine. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.399 I was supposed to get my flu shot one morning, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.440 and I canceled because I wasn't feeling good, and later 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.480 that day I started spitting up blood. It was a 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.240 bad situation, but you can bet you that the antivactors 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.480 would have blamed it on the flu shot. There was 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.320 a man that was going to get his kid vaccinated, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.280 but the line was too long, so he left and 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.199 he took his kid home to take a nap, and 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.680 the kid died of sids in their sleep. And had 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.960 they gotten their vaccines, they would have blamed the vaccines. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.480 So you have to understand reading these these this than 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:23.879 that about the COVID shot, There's a lot more to it, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.040 So you just have to take it with a grain 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:27.880 of salt if you're going to go into the dark 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:31.680 interwebs of Facebook groups, but I would steer clear and 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.560 just follow the CDC, the f d A, real scientists online, 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.000 Like just pack your Facebook and your social media and 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.080 your Twitter full of scientists and doctors and arm yourself 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.520 with that so that you are able to fight off 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.439 any lie that is going to come at you. And 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.320 I know I'm being harsh on Facebook, but I do 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.080 believe they have a huge responsibility right now and it's 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:56.399 a life or death issue in my opinion. My last question, 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:02.080 when you were not vaccinating your daughter, you're not vaccinate yourself. 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.640 Did you have family or friends who tried to reach 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.000 out to you, talk to you about why you were 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.840 in that place, talk to you about vaccines and vaccinations 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:15.160 and did any of that work or or no? It did. 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.520 My mom would always say, I really think she's going 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.320 to be fine. Just get the tennis shot, like you 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.320 and your brothers were fine. I think you're going to 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.760 feel so much better after you get the shot. You're 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.639 not gonna have to worry about tennis. And then one 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:30.800 of my best friends was always like, Okay, why are 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.560 you scared, and this is why you shouldn't be scared. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.320 Listening but also not empathizing to the point where you're 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:43.520 giving in is good, but also being loving and listening 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.320 and understanding that they are coming from a spirit of fear. 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.679 They are truly trying to protect their kid. I was 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.960 truly scared that Charlotte would die if she was vaccinated. 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.879 That was not me trying to ruin the world. That 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.480 wasn't me trying to ruin her community. I was just 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.160 trying to save my baby. So knowing that going into it, 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.840 these are people too, the other just confused. They've got 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:10.320 the wrong information. Father. Thank you so much, Thank you 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:15.600 so much for having me. You can find more on 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.760 Heather Simpson, read her writing, and check out her podcast 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:25.200 it Back to the Vacs dot com. I'm a huge 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.320 fan of Dr Peter Hotez. He's a fellow vaccine enthusiast, 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:31.399 and I certainly turn up the volume every time I 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.600 see him on TV, which these days is quite often 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.520 sporting his signature. Bote Peters the co director of the 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.720 Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital, and he's 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.359 the dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.959 Baylor College of Medicine. He's written several books and one 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.000 of my favorites, Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism. He 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.879 draws on his experiences as a pediatrician, vaccine scientist, and 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:59.560 autism dad to examine and answer the questions and also 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.879 to refer cute the concerns of the anti vaccine movement. 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:09.760 I do first want to ask you how you got 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:14.320 interested in vaccines, in vaccine development. Well, ever, since I 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:18.000 was an adolescent, I actually wanted to study tropical diseases. 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.679 You know, I was a nerdy kid with fascination with 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:25.639 maps and microbes, so tropical diseases became the confluence of 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.320 the two. And then when I entered into the m 0:22:29.440 --> 0:22:31.960 d pH d program in New York at Rockefeller and 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.600 Cornell in I really wanted to develop a vaccine for 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:40.439 para parasitic disease because nobody was even thinking about it 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:44.000 at that time. And the seventies, the revolution of molecular 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.080 biology was taking place, but everyone was focused on diseases 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:50.439 of the West or diseases of the United States, And 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.200 I thought, we need to start applying that whole molecular 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.760 biology revolution towards eukaryotic pathogens that effect low and middle 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:03.720 income countries, and vaccinations were, without question the most powerful 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.439 means to do that. So most people now know us 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.720 about our COVID nineteen vaccine, But the truth is, most 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:15.040 of my life has been devoted to vaccines for neglected 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.040 tropical diseases that no one else will take on because 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.760 their disease of the poorest of the poor. And so Peter, 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:24.359 when you talk about the vaccines that you're working on 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:29.680