Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this is in fact a
Speaker 1: podcast about why public health matters even when we're not
Speaker 1: in a pandemic. Today we're talking about vaccines, well more
Speaker 1: specifically about the toll the anti vaccine movement has taken
Speaker 1: on our public health. Let's start with some basics. Vaccines
Speaker 1: are one of the most successful public health interventions in
Speaker 1: human history. They've saved millions, if not billions, of lives.
Speaker 1: They've protected generations of children in the US and around
Speaker 1: the world from deadly diseases. And right now, the surest
Speaker 1: path out of the COVID nineteen pandemic is to vaccinate
Speaker 1: as many people in as many places as possible. But that,
Speaker 1: of course requires wide scale public trust and participation, two
Speaker 1: things that the anti vaccine movement has been working really
Speaker 1: hard to undermine. The anti vax movement has been growing
Speaker 1: in darkness for decades, and now they've captured this hot
Speaker 1: light as they weaponized fear and uncertainty, dis doubt, and
Speaker 1: spread lies about the COVID nineteen vaccines. Their efforts have
Speaker 1: been amplified by public figures who use their platforms to
Speaker 1: elevate debunked conspiracy theories, and all of this has made
Speaker 1: much much worse by lack of accountability from social media
Speaker 1: and technology platforms themselves. The anti VACS movement is hurting
Speaker 1: our ability to recover from this pandemic, and it could
Speaker 1: affect which vaccines this generation of kids received well beyond
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. So what can we do? How do we
Speaker 1: fight the powerful tide of disinformation that began long before
Speaker 1: this pandemic and has unfortunately gained momentum during it. How
Speaker 1: do we overcome mistrust around vaccines and help more people
Speaker 1: get the facts that they need to make the right
Speaker 1: health decisions for themselves and their families. Well, to answer
Speaker 1: those questions, I'm talking with two people who are confronting
Speaker 1: these challenges head on. Later, we're here from my friend
Speaker 1: Dr Peter Hotez, a vaccine researcher and advocate and co
Speaker 1: director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital.
Speaker 1: But first I'm talking with Heather Simpson, a mom who
Speaker 1: fell down the anti vax rabbit hole and then pulled
Speaker 1: herself back out. Hey, there's an activist, a freelance writer,
Speaker 1: and a mom to three year old daughter. Hers is
Speaker 1: a story of how effectively the anti vax movement and
Speaker 1: traps people, and a reminder that it's possible, if not
Speaker 1: always easy, to change minds. I started our conversation by
Speaker 1: asking Heather how she went from someone who had always
Speaker 1: gotten vaccinated then anti vax social media influencer. My mom
Speaker 1: vaccinated all of us. It wasn't until I was eighteen
Speaker 1: that I had the choice to get my meningitis shot,
Speaker 1: and I hate needles, so on that alone, chose not
Speaker 1: to get it going into college, which was stupid. I
Speaker 1: did get the t DAP in two thousand fifteen. I
Speaker 1: got the flu shot for school. It wasn't until me
Speaker 1: and my husband really started trying to have our daughter
Speaker 1: that we were like, should we do the schedule? I mean,
Speaker 1: we haven't given it much thought. And a documentary series
Speaker 1: popped up I think on Facebook as an ad, and
Speaker 1: it was nine hours of just pure propaganda. It was
Speaker 1: doctor after doctor blaming everything under the sun on vaccines.
Speaker 1: So by the time you're done watching all nine hours
Speaker 1: of terror, you are not going to want to injectricate.
Speaker 1: I mean I was terrified. I was thinking, if we
Speaker 1: inject Charlotte, she will die in her sleep that night.
Speaker 1: The strength of the fear that I had was so
Speaker 1: so strong. I was ashamed a little bit, a little
Speaker 1: bit embarrassed about it because my mom groups were so
Speaker 1: pro vaccine, so I didn't really tell anybody. But when
Speaker 1: she was about eighteen months old, I decided to start
Speaker 1: talking about it casually on the internet on Facebook, and
Speaker 1: it just took off. And I didn't realize that they're
Speaker 1: worth thousands and thousands of anti vas moms on Facebook
Speaker 1: that had all found each other, and that there's this huge, huge,
Speaker 1: growing community and they just accepted me as one of them,
Speaker 1: and it just took off from there. How did that
Speaker 1: make you feel when you were accepted by the anti
Speaker 1: vaccine mom groups. I was living in West Texas in
Speaker 1: the oil Field area, and my husband was at work
Speaker 1: all the time, and so I was caring for a
Speaker 1: child on oxygen at the time. She's okay now, and
Speaker 1: I was just desperate for a community. So it was
Speaker 1: just the perfect timing to have this community crowd around
Speaker 1: me and take me in. I can see how anybody
Speaker 1: would fall prey to that community, and they are really
Speaker 1: good people. It's hard to see them for what they're doing,
Speaker 1: which is pushing anti vax propaganda. I saw them as
Speaker 1: my friends and to without the Facebook algorithm recommending that
Speaker 1: first long look into vaccine conspiracies and anti vaccine propaganda,
Speaker 1: do you think you ever would have found it? No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think we would have probably
Speaker 1: vaccinated our child. So now fast forward a few years,
Speaker 1: your daughters a few years old. What then changed? Why
Speaker 1: did you then decide to start vaccinating your daughter? Around
Speaker 1: this time last year, I had to have surgery for endometriosis,
Speaker 1: and I reached out to my community and they basically
Speaker 1: were saying, well, you're taking the lazy way out, and
Speaker 1: you just need to eat better and the endometrioss would
Speaker 1: go away. And I just felt so much shame and guilt,
Speaker 1: and I went to my doctor and she said, no,
Speaker 1: you need the surgery, and I just burst into tears.
Speaker 1: And I realized that moment that the anti vacs world
Speaker 1: thinks they can play God in a way like if
Speaker 1: you eat healthy enough, and if you don't vaccinate, and
Speaker 1: if you take all the right supplements, you will never
Speaker 1: encounter an illness. That kind of started tilting me towards
Speaker 1: Western medicine. And I started to speak out and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: nobody is forcing your kids to go to public school
Speaker 1: don't public schools have the right to mandate vaccines if
Speaker 1: you're not being forced to go. And it's really hard
Speaker 1: to say that one vaccine hasn't saved at least one life.
Speaker 1: I think that would be impossible to say that. And
Speaker 1: because I had said even that that one vaccine saved
Speaker 1: one life, I was ousted by the community. There was
Speaker 1: no room for doubt or questioning or the middle ground.
Speaker 1: It's a cult. It's a cult. I was ousted. I
Speaker 1: ended up in the ear with a panic attack because
Speaker 1: I had hundreds of people in that group just shaming
Speaker 1: me and attacking me, and I was horrified. And then
Speaker 1: COVID hit and I realized all of them are also
Speaker 1: anti maskers, and they also deny that COVID is real.
Speaker 1: And then I started to realize, oh my gosh, these
Speaker 1: people are real conspiracy theories. And I just was like WHOA.
Speaker 1: And I just took a step back, and I started
Speaker 1: reading books with actual science, like by Dr Paul Offit
Speaker 1: and finding the scientific facts that I can't get around.
Speaker 1: Before you left or were expelled from the anti vaccine
Speaker 1: mom groups, what were those early conversations around COVID, Like
Speaker 1: basically that somebody owned the patent to the virus years ago.
Speaker 1: I don't know who it was, somebody big, maybe Bill Gates,
Speaker 1: and that this was planned to reduce the population. So
Speaker 1: that was the global conspiracy, that this is a man
Speaker 1: made virus used to kill off everybody and to gained
Speaker 1: mind control of everybody through submission through masks. A lot
Speaker 1: of these people were deeply into q and On. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've heard of q and on. Oh yes, my
Speaker 1: mother is a prominent part of the que and On
Speaker 1: narrative makes it sound like there's coherent's there. I don't
Speaker 1: really think it's a narrative, but whatever the chaos of
Speaker 1: it is. Yes, yeah, it's crazy. Another I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that is concerning from a public health
Speaker 1: standpoint is when you were talking earlier about how you know,
Speaker 1: when you were eighteen and you made one decision to
Speaker 1: not get vaccinated because you were scared of needles. There
Speaker 1: has to be space to talk to people about really
Speaker 1: understandable questions and concerns like it's going to hurt, is
Speaker 1: it really worth it? Or what do all these different
Speaker 1: vaccines do? How do I think about them? Why do
Speaker 1: some vaccinations really need to be administered very early in
Speaker 1: someone's life, and some require boosters and some don't like
Speaker 1: since you now have have really lived in the hardcore
Speaker 1: like anti vax online world and now don't have to
Speaker 1: separate out the space the compassion for questions that I
Speaker 1: think are important for parents and people to feel like
Speaker 1: they can ask, and then also try to help limit
Speaker 1: the space for the questions that are just not rooted
Speaker 1: in science, not rooted in reality, and are really intended
Speaker 1: to find people like you who are vulnerable a few
Speaker 1: years ago to bring them into the conspiracy. How do
Speaker 1: you think we do that well? When I was introduced
Speaker 1: to the fact that many of the studies that show
Speaker 1: aluminum in the brain that antivactors like to post that
Speaker 1: aluminium in the brain, if you read the fine print,
Speaker 1: is environmental aluminum. It's not the aluminum salts and vaccines
Speaker 1: that blew my mind. And once I had those facts
Speaker 1: that I couldn't argue myself out of, I held onto
Speaker 1: those when I went to vaccinate my daughter. Those are
Speaker 1: what did it for me. I mean, and I had
Speaker 1: friends pouring into me and talking to me and just
Speaker 1: empathizing with me, But it was those scientific facts that
Speaker 1: I could not get around. And so I have a
Speaker 1: spectrum of anti vaxtors. You have the vaccine hesitant who
Speaker 1: maybe vaccinated their kids, but they're hesitant about the COVID vaccine.
Speaker 1: And then you have the scared people, which is where
Speaker 1: I was. And then you have the X factors, and
Speaker 1: that's really the critical group because they feel that something
Speaker 1: happened right after the child's vaccine. Maybe the child stopped
Speaker 1: talking a few days later, but they weren't paying attention
Speaker 1: to all of those signs leading up to it. And
Speaker 1: if the doctor would sit down and notebook it out
Speaker 1: about all the signs that they may have missed leading
Speaker 1: up to that, and get genetic testing for maybe genetic
Speaker 1: markers that show up for autism, and just walk that
Speaker 1: mom through it to show her that it was not
Speaker 1: the vaccine that would keep a pro vax er, but instead,
Speaker 1: if you shoot her out the door, she's gonna go home,
Speaker 1: she's gonna google what happened to my kid, and she's
Speaker 1: going to find this world of antivactors and join drinks.
Speaker 1: And so it is about finding what happened quote unquote
Speaker 1: to their child. Maybe nothing happened, but talking that mom
Speaker 1: through it and getting her to the other side of it,
Speaker 1: so that you keep her on the pro vaccination side.
Speaker 1: A lot of this lies in the pediatrician's hands. And
Speaker 1: you were mentioning how important your conversations with your doctor
Speaker 1: were around your endometriosis diagnosis. Yes, Unfortunately, when I was
Speaker 1: pregnant and I refused the te dat, my doctor looked
Speaker 1: at me and said, oh, no, you're not one of
Speaker 1: those crazy anti vactors, are you. That's not helpful, And
Speaker 1: then he never explained the necessity of the vaccine. He
Speaker 1: just brushed me off, and so did my pediatrician. I
Speaker 1: tried to talk to her about my concerns. My trust
Speaker 1: and doctors majorly fell when my daughter had sleep at
Speaker 1: me up, but they wouldn't listen to me, and I
Speaker 1: was begging them, saying, she's not sleeping normal, something is happening.
Speaker 1: We have an outlet monitor and it was going off
Speaker 1: every night. Her oxygen was dropping in her sixties. I
Speaker 1: was begging doctors for two months, please listen to me,
Speaker 1: something's wrong, and they were saying, you're just as sweet,
Speaker 1: new nervous mom, honey, just sleep, wake up every few hours,
Speaker 1: see if she's purple, and go back to sleep. Good Lord,
Speaker 1: that's what someone actually told you. Yeah, that's what they
Speaker 1: actually told me. And so two months later, after begging
Speaker 1: and begging, I finally got a sleep study and I
Speaker 1: got in with the sleep doctor and she said, honey,
Speaker 1: your baby is fine. And she said, but you know
Speaker 1: what it said, your new nervous mom. I will grant
Speaker 1: you the sleep study just to calm you down. And
Speaker 1: so we got to sleep study at two months old.
Speaker 1: And moderate sleep at MIA is forty events per hour,
Speaker 1: and she clocked in at one forty four. That's record breaking.
Speaker 1: She almost had a scientific study on her. And they
Speaker 1: transferred her to I see you the next morning so
Speaker 1: that she wouldn't die. So that was where my distrust
Speaker 1: and doctors started. That's understandable, Wather, That's completely understandable. How
Speaker 1: did you, then, though, find doctors who you could trust?
Speaker 1: I realized that not all doctors are the same. So
Speaker 1: when we moved to Dallas, I found people that listened
Speaker 1: to us and took us seriously. And now she's with
Speaker 1: a great heart doctor, a great pediatrician. She's with everyone
Speaker 1: that she needs to be with, and we trust them wholeheartedly.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Stay with us. What would you
Speaker 1: like to see happen more of and maybe the training
Speaker 1: of pediatricians and other people in medicine to be able
Speaker 1: to have conversations with, you know, vaccine hesitant parents or
Speaker 1: even parents who are further on that spectrum that you
Speaker 1: talked about. You may be rejecting vaccines today, but also
Speaker 1: really do want to make the best in the right
Speaker 1: choices for their kids health. So those facts that I'm
Speaker 1: holding onto, I'm working on a list of ten of them.
Speaker 1: I think if pediatricians can be armed with those facts
Speaker 1: that anti factors cannot are you or feel their way
Speaker 1: out of. And that's even on a pamphlet or something
Speaker 1: that would do so much good. If I had known
Speaker 1: those facts when Charlotte was two months old, I probably
Speaker 1: would have vaccinated her. That would have calmed all my concerns,
Speaker 1: all my fears. And so I'm training doctors to be
Speaker 1: armed with those facts. But also there's a story of
Speaker 1: a little boy that had never had a seizure in
Speaker 1: his life, and then he got a seizure right after
Speaker 1: his shots, and so the mom took the little boy
Speaker 1: in and the doctor said, there's no way it's from
Speaker 1: the shots. So she took the little boy to the
Speaker 1: ear and they said it's no way from the shot.
Speaker 1: So you have this mom who feels insane, she feels
Speaker 1: gas lit, she feels crazy, and we know that febrile
Speaker 1: seizures are possible from a shot and they're not dangerous.
Speaker 1: But had the doctor said, hey, maybe it is, but
Speaker 1: you know what, it's okay. Your baby is safe and
Speaker 1: we will watch your baby on the next vaccine. I
Speaker 1: will hold your hand and I will be there and
Speaker 1: we will be on guard and we can get through
Speaker 1: this together. But your baby is okay. That would have
Speaker 1: built that trust, that acknowledgement that hey, that sometimes does
Speaker 1: happen and it's okay. But to gaslight a mom, she
Speaker 1: just joined the ranks of the anti vaxxers. So teaching
Speaker 1: doctors that anti vaxxer moms are just trying to save
Speaker 1: their kids, they're not crazy. And if doctors can get
Speaker 1: to the bottom by offering an explanation other than vaccines
Speaker 1: about what they perceive happened, they will keep them as
Speaker 1: a pro vax er. And I think that's the biggest
Speaker 1: thing keep them from going home and googling their way
Speaker 1: into the anti vax cult. Listen to what their concern
Speaker 1: or concerns are and get to the bottom of it,
Speaker 1: because they're going to go off the deep end if
Speaker 1: you don't. I am curious though, if other parents, moms
Speaker 1: you have reached out to you though over the last
Speaker 1: year to say I'm having similar questions. I think maybe
Speaker 1: I should vaccinate my kids. I just don't know what
Speaker 1: advice do you have. Has that happened it has. We've
Speaker 1: actually convinced a few parents to vaccinate. They needed to
Speaker 1: see somebody that was so anti vacs turn because if
Speaker 1: somebody was so anti vacts and they were able to turn,
Speaker 1: there must be a good reason why they turned. I
Speaker 1: can do this too, And so we have seen people
Speaker 1: start to vaccinate their kids and get the COVID shot,
Speaker 1: which is really exciting because I truly believe the COVID
Speaker 1: shot is the way to end the pandemic. I agree.
Speaker 1: Have you had any conversations with people who are not
Speaker 1: vaccine hesitant or not anti vactor but are questioning this vaccine. Yes,
Speaker 1: And the main concern that I've found is how the
Speaker 1: COVID vaccine relates to fertility. That is by far the
Speaker 1: main concern that rumor has run rampant on Facebook. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not even allowed to visit my friend who believes
Speaker 1: that because I'm vaccine needed, I will rub off and
Speaker 1: cause her to be infertile just by being next to
Speaker 1: her because of the completely not rooted in fact theory
Speaker 1: that the vaccine will shed that you have been vaccinated
Speaker 1: and you can like shed the virus. It's like me
Speaker 1: drinking coffee and my caffeine rubbing off on you. It's
Speaker 1: just not going to happen, and that these people believe it.
Speaker 1: And so you have this whole group of people that
Speaker 1: are starting to segregate away from society from the vaccinated people.
Speaker 1: They're breaking up with their husbands and their boyfriends because
Speaker 1: their boyfriends are getting the vaccine and they will not
Speaker 1: touch them. This is going to become huge. They don't
Speaker 1: want to be around these people. It's it's about to
Speaker 1: get really bad, in my opinion, and it's because these
Speaker 1: Facebook groups are allowed to form, or people are saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I felt tired after the vaccine. Oh my mom had
Speaker 1: a stroke twenty seven days later after the vaccine. Oh, well,
Speaker 1: of course it was from the vaccine. They are allowed
Speaker 1: to put every single thing. Oh I had a hiccup
Speaker 1: for the vaccine. I've never hiccup before. Them must be
Speaker 1: from the vaccine. Everything is being posted to these groups,
Speaker 1: and these groups are being allowed to run crazy on Facebook,
Speaker 1: and people are sharing them like crazy, So people that
Speaker 1: were going to get the shot are suddenly not. And
Speaker 1: it just there's no control over these groups, and it
Speaker 1: is getting misinformation into every corner of Facebook and people
Speaker 1: are reading it, and then they were going to get
Speaker 1: the vaccine and now they're not. Is there anything else
Speaker 1: that you'd like to share, any advice that you would
Speaker 1: have for anyone listening to us about how to protect
Speaker 1: themselves against misinformation to be able to make important health decisions,
Speaker 1: including around vaccines and vaccinations for themselves and their kids.
Speaker 1: Just be so careful when you're on Facebook and you
Speaker 1: read well, this happened right after my kid got a vaccine.
Speaker 1: I was supposed to get my flu shot one morning,
Speaker 1: and I canceled because I wasn't feeling good, and later
Speaker 1: that day I started spitting up blood. It was a
Speaker 1: bad situation, but you can bet you that the antivactors
Speaker 1: would have blamed it on the flu shot. There was
Speaker 1: a man that was going to get his kid vaccinated,
Speaker 1: but the line was too long, so he left and
Speaker 1: he took his kid home to take a nap, and
Speaker 1: the kid died of sids in their sleep. And had
Speaker 1: they gotten their vaccines, they would have blamed the vaccines.
Speaker 1: So you have to understand reading these these this than
Speaker 1: that about the COVID shot, There's a lot more to it,
Speaker 1: So you just have to take it with a grain
Speaker 1: of salt if you're going to go into the dark
Speaker 1: interwebs of Facebook groups, but I would steer clear and
Speaker 1: just follow the CDC, the f d A, real scientists online,
Speaker 1: Like just pack your Facebook and your social media and
Speaker 1: your Twitter full of scientists and doctors and arm yourself
Speaker 1: with that so that you are able to fight off
Speaker 1: any lie that is going to come at you. And
Speaker 1: I know I'm being harsh on Facebook, but I do
Speaker 1: believe they have a huge responsibility right now and it's
Speaker 1: a life or death issue in my opinion. My last question,
Speaker 1: when you were not vaccinating your daughter, you're not vaccinate yourself.
Speaker 1: Did you have family or friends who tried to reach
Speaker 1: out to you, talk to you about why you were
Speaker 1: in that place, talk to you about vaccines and vaccinations
Speaker 1: and did any of that work or or no? It did.
Speaker 1: My mom would always say, I really think she's going
Speaker 1: to be fine. Just get the tennis shot, like you
Speaker 1: and your brothers were fine. I think you're going to
Speaker 1: feel so much better after you get the shot. You're
Speaker 1: not gonna have to worry about tennis. And then one
Speaker 1: of my best friends was always like, Okay, why are
Speaker 1: you scared, and this is why you shouldn't be scared.
Speaker 1: Listening but also not empathizing to the point where you're
Speaker 1: giving in is good, but also being loving and listening
Speaker 1: and understanding that they are coming from a spirit of fear.
Speaker 1: They are truly trying to protect their kid. I was
Speaker 1: truly scared that Charlotte would die if she was vaccinated.
Speaker 1: That was not me trying to ruin the world. That
Speaker 1: wasn't me trying to ruin her community. I was just
Speaker 1: trying to save my baby. So knowing that going into it,
Speaker 1: these are people too, the other just confused. They've got
Speaker 1: the wrong information. Father. Thank you so much, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for having me. You can find more on
Speaker 1: Heather Simpson, read her writing, and check out her podcast
Speaker 1: it Back to the Vacs dot com. I'm a huge
Speaker 1: fan of Dr Peter Hotez. He's a fellow vaccine enthusiast,
Speaker 1: and I certainly turn up the volume every time I
Speaker 1: see him on TV, which these days is quite often
Speaker 1: sporting his signature. Bote Peters the co director of the
Speaker 1: Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital, and he's
Speaker 1: the dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at
Speaker 1: Baylor College of Medicine. He's written several books and one
Speaker 1: of my favorites, Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism. He
Speaker 1: draws on his experiences as a pediatrician, vaccine scientist, and
Speaker 1: autism dad to examine and answer the questions and also
Speaker 1: to refer cute the concerns of the anti vaccine movement.
Speaker 1: I do first want to ask you how you got
Speaker 1: interested in vaccines, in vaccine development. Well, ever, since I
Speaker 1: was an adolescent, I actually wanted to study tropical diseases.
Speaker 1: You know, I was a nerdy kid with fascination with
Speaker 1: maps and microbes, so tropical diseases became the confluence of
Speaker 1: the two. And then when I entered into the m
Speaker 1: d pH d program in New York at Rockefeller and
Speaker 1: Cornell in I really wanted to develop a vaccine for
Speaker 1: para parasitic disease because nobody was even thinking about it
Speaker 1: at that time. And the seventies, the revolution of molecular
Speaker 1: biology was taking place, but everyone was focused on diseases
Speaker 1: of the West or diseases of the United States, And
Speaker 1: I thought, we need to start applying that whole molecular
Speaker 1: biology revolution towards eukaryotic pathogens that effect low and middle
Speaker 1: income countries, and vaccinations were, without question the most powerful
Speaker 1: means to do that. So most people now know us
Speaker 1: about our COVID nineteen vaccine, But the truth is, most
Speaker 1: of my life has been devoted to vaccines for neglected
Speaker 1: tropical diseases that no one else will take on because
Speaker 1: their disease of the poorest of the poor. And so Peter,
Speaker 1: when you talk about the vaccines that you're working on
Speaker 1: now that haven't received the same attention or investment because
Speaker 1: of who is affected. Who is affected are not in
Speaker 1: the thousands, right, We're still talking about diseases that affect
Speaker 1: millions of people around the world. Yeah, that's right, Chelsea.
Speaker 1: So you've got seven hundred and fifty million people now
Speaker 1: who live below the World Bank poverty figure of a
Speaker 1: dollar nine d a day, and when you look, every
Speaker 1: single one of them is affected by a parasitic infection
Speaker 1: or a neglected tropical disease that led by diseases like hookworm,
Speaker 1: AND's just a semiasis and scaby and methatic file ariasis
Speaker 1: and river blindness, and and this is one of the
Speaker 1: challenges is not only are there scientifically complicated questions, but
Speaker 1: we don't really have ways to finance these vaccines. We
Speaker 1: need as much innovation in the finance and business sector
Speaker 1: as we do in the science. I still think a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't understand that why the development of
Speaker 1: the COVID nineteen vaccines felt very fast, and parts of
Speaker 1: it were really accelerated by enormous amounts of investment. It
Speaker 1: was really enabled by decades of pre existing research. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely right. So when stars hit in two thousand
Speaker 1: to two thousand three coming out of southern China affecting Toronto, Ontario,
Speaker 1: and then you had Mayors Middle Eastern respiratory syndrome in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, we saw the writing on the wall
Speaker 1: and we said, we've had two major coronavirus epidemics slash
Speaker 1: pandemics in the new century. I'm sure we'll have another
Speaker 1: one soon, and we start a partner with an excellent
Speaker 1: virology group at the New York Blood Center led by
Speaker 1: Shibu Jiang and Lan ying Do. And those vaccines were orphaned,
Speaker 1: just like our vaccines were, and so we began partnering,
Speaker 1: wrote to the n i H it got supported, and
Speaker 1: we started developing Stars and Mirrors vaccines. That was ten
Speaker 1: years of work that made it possible for all the
Speaker 1: other COVID vaccines. And I tell that story because it
Speaker 1: wasn't for that, we would not be moving so quickly.
Speaker 1: And part of the problem was when the c e
Speaker 1: O s sent out their press releases. You know how
Speaker 1: it is. They're sending out their press releases not for
Speaker 1: you or for me, but for their shareholders, and they
Speaker 1: tended to want to spectacularize their accomplishments. And I understand that,
Speaker 1: but I think inadvertently it gave the public the impression
Speaker 1: that somehow there must be something unsavory about these vaccines
Speaker 1: because they have popped up out of nowhere. And then
Speaker 1: of course calling an operation warp Speed, which was an
Speaker 1: awful name, didn't help any Peter, you and I have
Speaker 1: now talked for years about the difference between I think
Speaker 1: really important questions that people can ask about vaccines and
Speaker 1: vaccination and then the whole universe of real disinformation attacks
Speaker 1: against the integrity of science. And so I'm just curious,
Speaker 1: reversing back to night when you were embarking on your
Speaker 1: m d pH d work, were you aware of the
Speaker 1: anti vaccine movement at the time. Did you have any
Speaker 1: inkling that the anti vaccine movement might affect your work
Speaker 1: in your life in any way? Not back then. You know,
Speaker 1: I want to be part of that because the impact
Speaker 1: was so powerful, you know, when I got my m
Speaker 1: d and PhD, I never thought that there would be
Speaker 1: an anti science monster that was brewing at that time.
Speaker 1: And I never thought I'd have to devote a whole
Speaker 1: segment of my career to going up against anti vaccine,
Speaker 1: anti science movements. And I do it because again, I'm
Speaker 1: well positioned for it, not only being a vaccine scientist
Speaker 1: for so many years, but also being a parent of
Speaker 1: four adult kids now and Rachel who has autism and
Speaker 1: intellectual disabilities. Because so much around the anti vaccine movement
Speaker 1: that sprang up in the early two thousands was around
Speaker 1: false assertions that vaccines cause autism. And I wrote the
Speaker 1: book called Vaccines did not cause Rachel's autism, which kind
Speaker 1: of made me one of the public enemy number ones
Speaker 1: against from the anti vaccine movement. And I did it,
Speaker 1: you know, deliberately, because I thought, look, I have a voice.
Speaker 1: I've been able to use it to get people to
Speaker 1: care about neglected tropical diseases and helped to build that ecosystem.
Speaker 1: But I thought, you know, here, I am a vaccine scientist,
Speaker 1: a pediatrician, paraffin adult daughter for with autism. If I
Speaker 1: don't do it, who will? And I've paid a pretty
Speaker 1: steep price for it. But I'm glad I'm doing it
Speaker 1: because I do think it's had some effects. I'm positive
Speaker 1: benefits as well. Peter, this deep price you've paid has
Speaker 1: been getting measured in just the really awful hate that
Speaker 1: you've received. Seems at the moment kind of ceaseless, like
Speaker 1: every day you still seem to be under attack. There's
Speaker 1: now been this dramatic expansion and I call it the
Speaker 1: triple headed monster that I'm up against. And the three
Speaker 1: components of well one are They're they're no longer homegrown groups.
Speaker 1: There well organized, well funded groups that monetize the Internet,
Speaker 1: and the Center for Contering Digital Hate it's amazing. We
Speaker 1: have to have an organization called the Center for Countering
Speaker 1: Digital Hate now estimates that those groups now a fifty
Speaker 1: eight million followers on various social media platforms, So that's accelerated.
Speaker 1: And then you also have the Russian government has been
Speaker 1: using this as a major wedge issue to destabilized democracies,
Speaker 1: not only the US but elsewhere. And if that weren't
Speaker 1: complicated enough, you have in here in Texas, the t
Speaker 1: vaccine movement was starting to lose steam in terms of
Speaker 1: the autism links, although that thread continues. So what they
Speaker 1: did was they took on a political dimension around here
Speaker 1: in Texas when they somehow managed to align themselves with
Speaker 1: the Republican Tea Party down here and under this sort
Speaker 1: of fake banner of health freedom, medical freedom. And now
Speaker 1: we're seeing that full on. It's become a mainstream of
Speaker 1: political extremism on the far right, and white nationalist groups
Speaker 1: have adopted the anti vaccine, anti science movement. So the
Speaker 1: scariest part from me now is I get these regular
Speaker 1: emails and threats saying that an army of patriots is
Speaker 1: going to come hunting me down, and I'm thinking, well,
Speaker 1: sometimes you just have to take a step back and
Speaker 1: just try to calm yourself. I said, well, why did
Speaker 1: they need a whole army of patriots? I would think
Speaker 1: with just me and and Rachel and the cat one patriots,
Speaker 1: probably enough, maybe two patriots. But it's like this humor
Speaker 1: and it's like most painful, Peter, I don't understand the
Speaker 1: need for a whole army of patriots. But this is
Speaker 1: when I'm up against and from my standpoint, it's the
Speaker 1: worst it's ever been. And this is unfortunately a new
Speaker 1: role for scientists that have to deal with the anti
Speaker 1: science movements. And I think part of the problem in
Speaker 1: science and postdoctoral education is we don't provide young scientists
Speaker 1: with the skill set to understand it, to understand what
Speaker 1: the anti science movement is about, how it's globalized, and
Speaker 1: how to communicate. We need a whole contret of scientists
Speaker 1: who can engage the public, because I think there are
Speaker 1: people who still want to hear from us. I think
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people want here from you.
Speaker 1: I'm curious, how do we at least try to blunt
Speaker 1: the ability of the anti vaccine adherence to do harm
Speaker 1: our public health, to do harm even even to themselves.
Speaker 1: What do you think we need to be focused on
Speaker 1: to try to limit the reach and limit the effect act.
Speaker 1: In my papers, I've made the statement that we spent
Speaker 1: a lot of effort, invest a lot of resources to
Speaker 1: build infrastructure against things like global terrorism and nuclear proliferation
Speaker 1: and cyber attacks. We have to start considering that for
Speaker 1: anti science and anti vaccine activities. It's reached that level. Arguably,
Speaker 1: even more people are losing their lives and from anti
Speaker 1: science than some of the other things that we do
Speaker 1: build infrastructure for. I think one of the problems has
Speaker 1: been within the US government and even internationally at the
Speaker 1: United Nations agencies. The message that I've gotten for many
Speaker 1: years is Peter, I hear what you're saying, but you
Speaker 1: know what, We're not going to go there because we're
Speaker 1: worried if all the things that you're saying is just
Speaker 1: going to give the movement oxygen and I'll give it
Speaker 1: extra life and attention it doesn't deserve. And and I
Speaker 1: think that made sense maybe in the early two thousands
Speaker 1: when the thing was just taking off, But now it
Speaker 1: dominates the Internet, it dominates daily lives of Americans and
Speaker 1: people in Brazil and elsewhere. So this is a monster now,
Speaker 1: and that silence and that refusal to want to do
Speaker 1: anything about it has enabled the monster in many ways.
Speaker 1: So the recommendation is to bring people from outside the
Speaker 1: health sector to get some advice on what believers we
Speaker 1: can pull and push. Bring into people who have been
Speaker 1: going up against combating global terrorism and nuclear proliferation and
Speaker 1: cyber attacks for years and get some advice to understand
Speaker 1: what the options are. For instance, in the Biden administration,
Speaker 1: I've said, let's create an inner agency task force to
Speaker 1: to look at this, and not just people from the
Speaker 1: CDC and Health and Human Services agencies. We need people
Speaker 1: from the State Department, we need people from Home mass Security,
Speaker 1: from the Justice Department, from the Commerce Department. So I
Speaker 1: think that's one thing for the Biden administration, and then
Speaker 1: at the same level for the UN agencies to bring
Speaker 1: in people outside the health sector to at least get
Speaker 1: educated on on what we can do. Because this idea
Speaker 1: of just saying we're not going to say anything because
Speaker 1: it'll just give it oxygen it it. You can't do
Speaker 1: that anymore. Too many people are losing their lives not
Speaker 1: because of this. What do you think the role of
Speaker 1: the social media companies is well, it's clearly a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean that is a major v and not the
Speaker 1: only vehicle, but it is a major vehicle. And I
Speaker 1: think we're starting to see some progress there from the
Speaker 1: big text, I think we need a lot more. I mean, let's,
Speaker 1: for instance, look at Amazon. If you go to Amazon
Speaker 1: dot Com, you go to the books on vaccinations. I
Speaker 1: think my book is one of the leading pro vaccine
Speaker 1: selling books of the Preventing the Next Pandemic, but it's
Speaker 1: ranked about thirty because it's all fake anti vaccine COVID
Speaker 1: conspiracy books in front of it. And so Amazon is
Speaker 1: making a lot of money on sales from these books,
Speaker 1: and they're extremely damaging. So it's not only the facebooks
Speaker 1: of the world that's pervasive among the e commerce sites
Speaker 1: as well. Well. I think that's such an important point, Peter,
Speaker 1: and that it's not only the misinformation itself, the disinformation
Speaker 1: that's so dangerous. And I have called repeatedly on Facebook
Speaker 1: and and Google and others to d platform the largest
Speaker 1: purveyors of anti vaccine content and creators amplifiers of vanti
Speaker 1: vaccine content. The second part of what you said is
Speaker 1: really important too, that it's also the opportunity cost of
Speaker 1: all that misinformation being out there, because if people are
Speaker 1: consuming that, then they're not reading your book, they're not
Speaker 1: going to the CDC website, they're not picking up the
Speaker 1: phone and calling their pediatrician because they think their questions
Speaker 1: have already been answered. This is pervasive now, and if
Speaker 1: you try to download health information about vaccines, you're much
Speaker 1: more likely to download the garbage than the real stuff.
Speaker 1: But the constant thing you hear is that parents are
Speaker 1: coming into the office loaded forbear. I mean, they come
Speaker 1: in with all of this anti vaccine misinformation and the
Speaker 1: pediatrician is made to feel like he or she is
Speaker 1: not keeping up with the literature. Well they are, they're
Speaker 1: not keeping up with the fake literature. I spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time even going through the major fake assertions
Speaker 1: of the anti vaccine movement of later on COVID nineteen vaccines,
Speaker 1: and they're pretty easy to debunk. But if you don't
Speaker 1: know all the science behind it, you can get taken
Speaker 1: aback by it. I'm worried that the anti vaccine movement
Speaker 1: has so successfully polluted the conversation around the COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: vaccines that some of that pollution will infiltrate how parents
Speaker 1: are thinking about the routine immunizations for their kids, and
Speaker 1: that we may have newly vaccine hesitant parents as a
Speaker 1: direct consequence of the last year and a half who
Speaker 1: previously we're vaccinating their kids on schedule. Are you worried
Speaker 1: about that? Yeah? No, this is huge and not only
Speaker 1: young kids immunizations, but for the HPV vaccine also or
Speaker 1: the Mink's vaccine, right like for older teenagers. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: for college entry. So one was a disastrous year for
Speaker 1: childhood vaccinations because of all the social disruption, big declines
Speaker 1: and measles mom's rebella vaccine and I'm offuless influenza now
Speaker 1: HPV vaccine, no question about it. And so we're all
Speaker 1: kind of holding our breath because is it going to
Speaker 1: come back up to pre pandemic levels again, or as
Speaker 1: you point out rightly point out, has the anti vaccine
Speaker 1: movement become so dominant that we're not going to get
Speaker 1: back to pre pandemic levels or at least anytime soon.
Speaker 1: And as bad as things are in the US, this
Speaker 1: is going to be a global issue as well, because
Speaker 1: there's been severe disruptions to global vaccination campaigns across the
Speaker 1: world and me too. If you look at the last
Speaker 1: twenty years, we've made enormous progress because of GAV Global
Speaker 1: Lines for Vaccines and Immunization, and there's something called the
Speaker 1: Clinton Global Initiative. I don't know if you've ever heard
Speaker 1: about them, but they did an enormous amount of work.
Speaker 1: You know, we're trying to promote childhood vaccinations and it worked.
Speaker 1: I mean, we saw enormous progress in reductions and measles
Speaker 1: deaths and more than reduction of measles deaths since the
Speaker 1: start of GAVI in two thousand and and we're already
Speaker 1: starting to see a slowing of those gains. And the
Speaker 1: anti vaccine movement, anti science movement is a huge component
Speaker 1: of that now well, And I think that's such an
Speaker 1: important point, Peter, that while we've mainly been talking about
Speaker 1: the really tragic power and influence at the anti vaccine
Speaker 1: movement has here in the United States, and unfortunately, it
Speaker 1: has gained power and influence really all around the world
Speaker 1: over the last twenty years. What troubles me is, you know,
Speaker 1: for years, the other pushback I got was, well, this
Speaker 1: anti vaccine movements walled off to the US and North America.
Speaker 1: It's just this weird American phinice of the guys. We
Speaker 1: export our music, we export our movies. What makes you
Speaker 1: think we're not going to export this stuff? Are you
Speaker 1: worried that these are a harbinger of states relaxing vaccine
Speaker 1: requirements for public schools. Well, that's already started to happen,
Speaker 1: and unfortunately began here in Texas where I am. It
Speaker 1: started with Texans for Vaccine Choice, which became one of
Speaker 1: the first political action committees against vaccines in in fifteen.
Speaker 1: And now we've got anti vaccine packs and multiple states
Speaker 1: and we're already seeing you know, the governor of Texas,
Speaker 1: Governor Abbott, has issued an executive order against that if
Speaker 1: your public organization you cannot insist on vaccine or mask mandates.
Speaker 1: So this is going to be this new wave and
Speaker 1: how you take the anti science out of the GOP
Speaker 1: because it never used to be that way. I mean,
Speaker 1: and by the way, this is not fun for scientists
Speaker 1: to talk about, right, I mean, you know, I've been
Speaker 1: talking to doing public engagement for a number of years
Speaker 1: and the message always was, hey, just stick to the science.
Speaker 1: Stick to the science. You're not supposed to talk about
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats and conservatives and liberals, that's not your lane.
Speaker 1: And up until the last year or so, I pretty
Speaker 1: much adhered to that. But it got to the point
Speaker 1: where I don't know how else to talk about it
Speaker 1: unless you talk about it, especially when you had what
Speaker 1: was going on in the White House around this time
Speaker 1: last year, when there was a deliberate disinformation campaign to
Speaker 1: say COVID nineteen deaths or due to other causes, or
Speaker 1: the hospital admissions were due to catch up an elective
Speaker 1: surgery or spectacularizing hydroxy chloroquine. And it was a very
Speaker 1: dark place for as a scientist to go talking about
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats and the White House, and and I'm
Speaker 1: still not comfortable doing it. It's still a scary place
Speaker 1: for me, but I think it's necessary. Otherwise you can
Speaker 1: hunter how else do you solve the problem unless you
Speaker 1: can call it out and bring it into the light.
Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break to stay with us, Peter.
Speaker 1: I do want to ask, because you have, I think,
Speaker 1: been such an effective science communicator, and yet you implied
Speaker 1: you really had to figure out how to do this,
Speaker 1: like you weren't trained to do this in your undergrad
Speaker 1: studies or in your medical studies. Or through your PhD,
Speaker 1: or in your residency where you were working. But I
Speaker 1: do think we have to have a dynamic, really robust
Speaker 1: curriculum of how to communicate effectively, especially in the face
Speaker 1: of disinformation, because I do think, certainly, like anecdotally from
Speaker 1: so many of my friends, they haven't felt well prepared
Speaker 1: to have the conversations that you were referencing earlier because
Speaker 1: it wasn't part of their training, and it really needs
Speaker 1: to be. It is, and it's a lost opportunity. And
Speaker 1: I think, if there's ever there's not many silver linings
Speaker 1: from this pandemic, but I do think one of them
Speaker 1: is what I've been seeing is the American people anywhere
Speaker 1: are willing to tolerate a level of complexity that we
Speaker 1: often don't give them credit for. They like hearing from scientists,
Speaker 1: and they are willing to tolerate complicated discussions provided doesn't
Speaker 1: lapse too much into jargon, because their lives depend on it,
Speaker 1: or their families lives depend on it, And And so I
Speaker 1: think we need to build on that. Well, there are
Speaker 1: You've been so generously with your time. I really have
Speaker 1: one more question, you know, similar to what we saw
Speaker 1: with the accelerated development of the COVID nineteen vaccines last year.
Speaker 1: Are there other vaccines that are in development that you
Speaker 1: think are really promising with just maybe even a little
Speaker 1: bit more attention and investment, could also be ready to
Speaker 1: become shots and arms to help save lives. Well, I
Speaker 1: think so. I mean, remember this came on the heels
Speaker 1: of the extraordinary story that not many people talk about
Speaker 1: any more, the e bowl of vaccine made by American company,
Speaker 1: and that that was more than protective and not only
Speaker 1: helped stave off Ebola in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Conco,
Speaker 1: but stabilized the whole African continent. That was another public
Speaker 1: health triumph with a totally different technology. So I think
Speaker 1: one of the other lessons learned clearly keeping multiple technologies
Speaker 1: in play because you don't know which is going to
Speaker 1: be the one that really works the best, is going
Speaker 1: to be really important. And how we create that type
Speaker 1: of global infrastructure. I think we became too dependent on
Speaker 1: the multinational companies. As as good a job as they did,
Speaker 1: we now have got this horrible equity situation where no
Speaker 1: one's getting vaccinated in Africa and Latin America, Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1: So I think the next few years I'm putting a
Speaker 1: lot of effort into building vaccine capacity, so building that
Speaker 1: infrastructure in place. And it's not just building the factories,
Speaker 1: that's the least of it. It's the human capital. It's
Speaker 1: it takes years. One of the things that I think
Speaker 1: we're really missing is a foreign policy around vaccines. What
Speaker 1: I'm seeing right now is insufficient coming out of the
Speaker 1: bind administration. They've done an amazing job vaccinating the American people,
Speaker 1: but in terms of foreign policy, I think it's too
Speaker 1: modest in scope. What I'd like to hear from the
Speaker 1: Secretary of State of Lincoln do is is get up
Speaker 1: there and give an hour long foreign policy address that
Speaker 1: says the obvious, which is, look, we've got one point
Speaker 1: one billion people in Sub Saharan Africa. We've got six
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million people in Latin America, maybe another
Speaker 1: half a billion people in the smaller lower income countries
Speaker 1: of Asia. That's two and a half billion people. We
Speaker 1: need to provide five to six billion doses of vaccines.
Speaker 1: So what's the plan? And and I want to see
Speaker 1: the US government take the lead on this, because if,
Speaker 1: as we know, if the US government doesn't take the lead,
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. That that is real. That was true
Speaker 1: for HIV AIDS and pep far, that was true of
Speaker 1: winning war against fascism in Europe and winning the cold
Speaker 1: where sometimes you need us leadership, and this is what
Speaker 1: needs to happen. Well, Peter, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: all of your time and everything you shared, and I'm
Speaker 1: just hugely grateful and it's just always good to see
Speaker 1: you and always get to learn from you. So thank you.
Speaker 1: I feel the same way, Chelsea. It's real honor, and
Speaker 1: thanks for having me on today. Peter's newest book is
Speaker 1: called Preventing the Next Pandemic Vaccine Diplomacy in a time
Speaker 1: of anti science when it comes to vaccines, Spreading truth,
Speaker 1: facts and evidence are urgent public health priorities to help
Speaker 1: us get out of this pandemic and to continue to
Speaker 1: protect ourselves and our kids from vaccine preventable diseases. As
Speaker 1: I talked about with our yes today, the anti vaccine
Speaker 1: movement has become so emboldened throughout COVID and I'm desperately
Speaker 1: worried that we won't catch up on all the well
Speaker 1: child visits that have been missed, which could chip away
Speaker 1: at herd immunity. For a number of really scary diseases.
Speaker 1: This past year, millions of American children have missed their
Speaker 1: routine vaccinations, often because their parents were keeping them home
Speaker 1: to keep them safe from COVID. But while all that happened,
Speaker 1: and estimated one in five kids fell behind on their
Speaker 1: shots to prevent diseases including measles, diphtheria, tetanus, and polio.
Speaker 1: As Dr Megan Ranny, an emergency physician at Brown University,
Speaker 1: told The New York Times recently, it would be a
Speaker 1: horrible irony for us to get through this pandemic and
Speaker 1: lose children to these preventable diseases. So please, if you
Speaker 1: haven't yet, get vaccine against COVID nineteen and urge others
Speaker 1: in your life to do the same. And for all
Speaker 1: the fellow parents out there, while we eagerly await the
Speaker 1: latest research around younger kids and the COVID nineteen vaccines,
Speaker 1: please make sure your kids are up to date on
Speaker 1: all their other vaccines and joined Heather Peter and countless
Speaker 1: others who are speaking out on social media and elsewhere
Speaker 1: about the need to make sure that people are around
Speaker 1: the world you can get the vaccines they need to
Speaker 1: stay safe and Healthy. In Fact is brought to you
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio. Were produced by Erica Goodmanson, Lauren Peterson,
Speaker 1: Cathy Russo, Julie Subrian, and Justin Wright, with help from
Speaker 1: the Hidden Light team of Barry Lurry, Sarah Horowitz, Nikki Huggett,
Speaker 1: Emily Young, and hum Abode, with additional support from Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 1: Original music is by Justin Wright. If you liked this
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Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening, and see you next week.